Business of the House

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Monday 1st April 2019 Commons Chamber

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

In some ways, this business motion might be seen as the most interesting and important part of the day, because procedure is now everything. The fact that, on this historic day, the Government have lost control of the Order Paper is vital to the debate and how we proceed. Although we will have an interesting debate in the coming hours, I doubt whether a single vote will be changed by what anybody says, what blogs are written or what tweets are posted. Most people have made up their minds, and they have a settled view on what they want—whether it is the customs union, no deal or whatever.

My few remarks are almost by way of questions to the Leader of the House and to my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin). Like many people, I want to know what will happen under the current procedure. It seems to me that tonight we will probably whittle matters down to one option that has the most support in the House, and we all know that that is likely to be permanent membership of the customs union. On Wednesday, the alternative Government—not the Labour party, but my right hon. Friend—will take control of the agenda. As I understand it, he will then produce a Bill to implement what is decided, which will probably be permanent membership of the customs union.

I put it to the Government that we Conservative MPs will then have a choice: we will have to have permanent membership of the customs union because the Order Paper will have been taken over by Parliament; or we have a general election; or we prorogue Parliament. I say to my right hon. Friend that I think it would be a dereliction of duty on the part of the House if we were to abdicate our responsibility and have a general election. The people asked us to make this choice and to do this job. If we cannot agree on what we do not want, we should agree on what we do want. Therefore, the Government have to move forward with their meaningful vote, if necessary in a run-off with this customs union, and if necessary in a vote tomorrow.

I do not believe that it is in the interests of the nation to have a general election, which would solve nothing: people do not vote on the issue—they vote on who the leader of the party is, who they like or who their local MP is. We all know that every single general election gets out of control. We ourselves have to decide this issue. We have to make the choice. We have to decide what we want, not what we do not want.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Edward Leigh]

No, I am going to finish in a moment. The other thing that we surely cannot do—I say this to my friends who, like me, voted for Brexit—is duck the issue by proroguing Parliament. We cannot act like Charles I. We voted leave because we wanted to give control back to Parliament; it would be like someone throwing the football out of the stadium because they are losing the football match.

There is a simple choice for my colleagues now. The Government are on the cusp of losing control and we are on the cusp of facing permanent membership of the customs union, which runs contrary to our manifesto. We have to get real, dear friends: we have to make that choice. My personal choice is that I would rather vote for the Prime Minister’s deal, which at least delivers some sort of Brexit.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Bernard Jenkin]

I do not think that that is a secret. I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman has not looked it up. The problem is that last week’s indicative votes have already discredited Parliament because no single proposal was adopted by a majority. Sustained use of the procedure is already undermining trust, increasing alienation and destroying the credibility of institutions that have historically worked tolerably well. It is apparent that the long-term effects of this constitutional upheaval are not a consideration for those who are forcing it upon us. There is no electoral mandate for such a dramatic constitutional upheaval. In what circumstances would this experiment be repeated in the future, perhaps when a majority Government did not have a majority on a particular issue? It is one thing for a minority of the governing party to help to vote down a Government proposal; it is something else, and quite extraordinary, to combine forces with Her Majesty’s official Opposition to impose an entirely Government different policy that the Government were not elected to implement.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

These constitutional perambulations are very interesting, and I accept everything that my hon. Friend says about the nature of these indicative votes, but if he and his Friends had voted with the Government on the past three occasions, we would have Brexit by now.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin]

I am deliberately not going to become involved in that argument, but my hon. Friend knows that I do not believe that the withdrawal agreement delivers Brexit.

What policy decisions would be eligible to be made through this procedure in the future? Why not decide taxation policy like this, or social security? I well remember my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, giving stinging rebukes to those who voted down his policy on increasing VAT on fuel. It is a bad thing for a Government to lose a vote on a taxation measure in a Budget, but just imagine handing over the entire Budget proposals to the House of Commons to be voted on in this way.

The vote to leave was in part to reverse the democratic deficit of the institutions of the European Union and to restore national democratic accountability. Whatever anyone’s view, that should be uncontroversial. The EU’s elected Parliament is blighted by low turnouts, and I doubt that anyone other than those who follow these issues most minutely could name with any certainty more than one or two of the candidates to be the next President of the European Commission, which is of course a legislative body. If we are to respond to the mandate expressed in the referendum, it cannot be right that we corrode our own system of parliamentary government by making it less accountable to voters in elections and rendering its process more inaccessible and confusing.

Business of the House

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Thursday 28th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

Before I respond to the hon. Gentleman’s remarks, I must put something important on the record: I understand that I am over two weeks late in wishing him a very happy birthday—[Laughter.] Wait for the punchline. I can more than make that up to him, however, because today is a bumper edition of Cake Thursdays in the office of the Leader of the House, as we have four birthdays over the next few days. I hope that he will swing by after business questions for a slice of Colin the Caterpillar—other cakes are available.

In response to the hon. Gentleman’s very serious and important points, I would like to put on the record that, in spite of his slightly less than generous remarks, the Prime Minister of this country has done enormous service. She has absolutely shown her determination at all times to put her country first and to make sure that we leave the European Union in line with the referendum. I think all Government Members support her in doing that.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Will the Leader of the House confirm that if the withdrawal agreement is not voted for tomorrow, on Monday my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin) will take control? There is nothing to stop him, under our procedures, now whittling down the options to one option. Almost certainly, given the results last night, that will be permanent membership of a customs union. There is nothing to stop him putting that in a Bill. There is nothing to stop him making that an Act of Parliament. The choice will then be between—I say this to my colleagues—permanent membership of a customs union or a general election. And that, as they say, will be that.

[Andrea Leadsom]

My right hon. Friend sets out very clearly that on Monday my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset will in fact be carrying out my role, if not that of the Prime Minister, in determining the order of business for the day and in seeking an agreement from the House on a way forward. I certainly feel that this House needs to agree to fulfil on the 2016 referendum. The Prime Minister’s deal offers the means by which to deliver on that referendum, but at the same time, for those who do not want to leave the European Union, the closest economic and security partnership. It is a compromise and I do urge colleagues right across the House to back it.

Business of the House

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

The hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to hear that I do not share his view at all. Let me say again that this House has a duty to decide what it does want. The hon. Gentleman asked, “Where is the legislation to take no deal off the table?” He knows that the House voted to leave the European Union on 29 March. That is the legal position. How does he suggest that we legislate to take no deal off the table unless it is by agreeing a deal? You cannot legislate to take no deal off the table. The House has already rejected a customs union, a second referendum and a no-deal Brexit, and it has rejected the Prime Minister’s deal. The House has said a lot about what it does not want to do; it needs to say what it does want to do.

Let me quote the hon. Gentleman’s words back to him. He said that he would never stop fighting for what his country voted for. His country voted to remain part of the United Kingdom.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

With regard to the meaningful vote which we are going to have apparently next week—

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Or not.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

Or not. May I urge the Government to be bold and decisive in order to comply with your ruling, Mr Speaker, and to change the wording significantly so that we can have the vote that we all want? May I suggest that one way forward is by way of the unilateral declaration? A unilateral declaration can of course be changed unilaterally: we do not need the EU to agree. I suggest that we should try to persuade our colleagues in Northern Ireland that, by beefing up this declaration, we can ensure it is not necessary to prove bad faith; we just have to prove that negotiations have broken down and then we can exit the backstop. Also, it should be conditional; we sign up to this treaty on condition that the declaration is not refused by the EU. All we need to prove is that it does not ratify. So let’s be bold, let’s be decisive, and let’s get this vote into Parliament.

[Andrea Leadsom]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his very helpful suggestion and I know this is something he has long campaigned for. As I have said to other Members, the Government will bring back the meaningful vote next week and it will be within terms necessary to enable the House to take a further view on it. But I do really from the heart urge all Members to just consider the fact that we as a House have agreed to undertake to leave the EU and the Prime Minister’s deal enables us to deliver on the referendum while at the same time taking careful account of the 48% of the people of this country who did not want to leave the EU. So what it also delivers is a close economic and security partnership with our EU friends and neighbours. So it really is having our cake and eating it and I urge all hon. Members to give it their very careful further consideration.

Business of the House

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I, as a democrat, am absolutely determined to fulfil the will of the people in leaving the European Union. He, on the other hand, is determined to ignore the will of the people of the United Kingdom, both on leaving the EU and on the question of independence. So we know where he stands.

I make it clear again that today’s debate is not about forcing the House to make a decision on whether the Government should seek a short or a long extension. The Government’s motion simply sets out the factual position so that Members can take a decision on extension in full knowledge of the consequences. If Members think it would be possible between now and June to agree a new negotiating position in the House, to secure agreement in Europe for a new deal based on that position and to pass the primary legislation needed to give effect to a new deal, that is a matter for hon. Members to put forward in today’s debate, particularly given the frequent representations I get here in business questions from Members from right across the House who have concerns about having the time they need to scrutinise and debate legislation.

I think the hon. Gentleman is in cloud cuckoo land. Do not take that from me, because Donald Tusk today says:

“During my consultations ahead of #EUCO, I will appeal to the EU27 to be open to a long extension if the UK finds it necessary to rethink its #Brexit strategy and build consensus around it.”

Michel Barnier says today:

“Why would we extend these discussions?”

He continued:

“The discussion on article 50 is done and dusted.”

He then says that they are waiting for the “answer” and that

“the House of Commons says what it doesn’t want”

and that:

“Now this impasse can only be solved in the UK.”

That means everybody in this Chamber needs to look at the consequences of what they are doing, and today is a very important day.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

May we have a debate on the Vienna convention on the law of treaties? The law is complex, and it is difficult in the big debates to get more than a few minutes to describe it, but the Vienna convention may well provide an exit route out of this impasse, because a state can abrogate part of a treaty if there is a change of the circumstances that are the basis of consent. I tabled an amendment to the first meaningful vote, and since then I have been talking about the idea of a unilateral declaration, but these are complex matters and we need to discuss them in full. Perhaps that would allow the Attorney General to come back with a different opinion so that more of our colleagues can vote for the Prime Minister’s deal.

[Andrea Leadsom]

My right hon. Friend has long championed this idea, and I commend him for that. He will know that the Attorney General has considered these matters in great detail and come to the House to answer questions on them for several hours. If he has more to say on the matter, I am sure he will come to the House to say it.

Business of the House

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Thursday 17th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Derby South (Margaret Beckett) for her suggestion. She will equally appreciate that when, under her Government, indicative voting was attempted on House of Lords reform, it did not come up with a clear solution—that is the other side of the argument. Nevertheless, I am grateful for her remarks and suggestions.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Following on from the previous question, the Procedure Committee met yesterday and we are holding an urgent inquiry on these issues and on the recent rulings from the Chair. May I encourage the Leader of the House, the shadow Leader of the House and you, Mr Speaker, to come to our Committee, if you are invited?

As the right hon. Member for Derby South (Margaret Beckett) just said, there is a point about such precedents. The shadow Leader of the House hopes soon to be in government, and it would be quite a dangerous precedent if Back Benchers were given precedence over the Government in introducing business. These are major constitutional issues, and we should not play this on the hoof or approach it from our being pro-Brexit or anti-Brexit. We should try to come to some sort of consensus.

[Andrea Leadsom]

My right hon. Friend’s final point is exactly right. There are some very serious issues about the way the House conducts its business and, indeed, about the way our democracy is managed, and we need to consider those very carefully and soberly, although I agree with you, Mr Speaker. I would not storm the Procedure Committee’s meeting uninvited but, if invited, I would of course be available to come along.

Business of the House

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Thursday 15th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

The hon. Lady raises a very serious issue and it is completely horrendous when anyone is killed as a result of dangerous driving. She will be aware that we had a debate, as a result of many representations from hon. Members, just before recess. I hope that she was able to make her points there, but certainly Ministers are looking very carefully at what more can be done.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

The Procedure Committee, on which I sit, is going to report imminently on the meaningful vote. It would obviously be wrong for me to provide a trailer for that, but I can give my personal views, and I wonder what the Leader of the House thinks about this. If we are going to have a meaningful vote, should we not know what we are voting on? Is it not the right thing to do, in accordance with the normal procedure of the House, to have the amendments first? Some of us are Brexiteers and some are remainers, but we all believe in the supremacy and importance of Parliament. This motion is amendable and it makes no sense at all to vote on the main motion having no idea what subsequent amendments might be passed. So can the Leader of the House consider at least that as a representation—we should take the amendments first?

[Andrea Leadsom]

My hon. Friend will be aware that there will be, as the Prime Minister said earlier, plenty of time for discussion and consideration of exactly what the deal looks like and of the advice given around it, and indeed for consideration of amendments that hon. Members want to bring forward. Clearly, once the deal with the EU has been agreed, Parliament will have a vote on the withdrawal agreement and the terms of our future partnership. Parliament will have the choice to accept or reject the deal. Of course if Parliament accepts the deal, we will introduce the EU withdrawal agreement Bill, which will implement it in domestic legislation, and if Parliament chooses to reject the deal, the Government will be unable to ratify the agreement. But to be clear, of course the motion will be amendable.

Business of the House

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Thursday 18th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

I love the hon. Gentleman’s interventions. I must say that I am really grateful to the many right hon. and hon. Members and members of the press who have been so determined to find out exactly what went on in the Leader of the House’s office on Monday night, and I think I can fully reassure all colleagues on three very important points: first, we went for a thin and crispy base; secondly, there were absolutely no cheesy bites; and, thirdly, I made sure that there were fresh carrot sticks for all my guests. I hope that I have now cleared that up.

The hon. Gentleman asks about the meaningful vote—he is right to do so. On the one hand, anything other than a straightforward approval of the deal will bring huge uncertainty for businesses, consumers and citizens but, on the other hand, any motion of the House is a matter for the House to decide. As we have noted on many occasions, the Speaker will decide whether to accept amendments in the usual way.

Finally, the hon. Gentleman asked about my comments, which I did anticipate, because he tweeted that he was going to ask me—[Interruption.] Yes, it was helpful. I want to address the matter seriously, because a lot of people are concerned. When I was a Back Bencher, I established with Conservative colleagues something called the Fresh Start Project, which was about seeking fundamental reform of the European Union, and it could be said that we really took our duties seriously. We travelled the EU and met like-minded politicians from both sides of the political spectrum. We really did our homework, and proposed a profound, fundamental set of reforms right across all areas of the EU, with a genuine desire to see a reformed EU that the UK would remain in. As someone who grew up as a member of the EU, as an awful lot of people in this country did, it seemed that reform was the No. 1 priority.

It became apparent during the discussions between the previous Prime Minister and the EU, however, that reform is simply not on the table. That was very clear, and that was when my opinion changed. The European Union cannot expect to trap countries into its ambitions, which is why I am a very proud Brexiteer and very keen to promote the superb future that the UK will have once we leave the European Union next March.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

There was misreporting about our Procedure Committee yesterday. We wrote to the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, and on no occasion did he ask us to change the rules. The situation, as outlined by the Clerks, is very clear: if there is no deal, the Government must lay a motion in neutral terms under section 13(4) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. Such a motion is unamendable, and attempts to politicise the office of the Speaker are completely outwith our rules and procedures. If there is a deal, there will be a vote under section 13(1) on an amendable motion, but if the Government are defeated in that vote, it defeats the deal.

In either case, Brexit proceeds under our procedure. It is now unstoppable and nobody in Parliament—[Interruption.] No, under the existing Act, nobody in Parliament can stop it, except the Government. Will the Government give me a categorical assurance that, whether or not there is a deal, or whether a deal is defeated, Brexit proceeds at the end of March and the Government will not delay it by a single day?

[Andrea Leadsom]

The United Kingdom will be leaving the European Union on 29 March 2019. To clarify again: once a deal with the EU has been agreed, Parliament will have a vote on the withdrawal agreement and the terms of our future partnership. Parliament will have the choice to accept or reject that deal. If Parliament accepts the deal, we will introduce an EU withdrawal agreement Bill to implement the agreement in domestic legislation; if Parliament chooses to reject the deal, the Government will be unable to ratify the agreement.

Bullying and Harassment: Cox Report

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Tuesday 16th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

The right hon. Gentleman is not only not taking part in this in the spirit that is intended, but casting aspersions on the Deputy Speakers, who also stand up for Back Benchers, stand up for what is right for our country and are perfectly good at taking the Chair. I do not understand why he should feel that the future of this great nation relies on one individual, which is what he seems to be suggesting.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

This is indeed a vitally important issue—it is so vital that an external body might be called for—but may I urge colleagues and the Executive not to conflate it with any campaign to get rid of the Speaker?

There is a good reason for me to say that. In centuries past, the Executive, and other forces in Parliament, tried to remove Speakers. It is vital to the independence of the House of Commons, and the independence of independent-minded Back Benchers, that the office of the Speaker is inviolate. That does not mean that he can behave badly or, for instance, do anything criminal, but he should not be the subject of a political campaign, because if that happens, Parliament, and the independence of the House of Commons, will suffer. Will the Leader of the House therefore assure me that when she meets the Commission on Monday, there will be absolutely no pressure on the Speaker from the Executive, and that we will deal with this as an issue, not in terms of personalities?

[Andrea Leadsom]

The House will have heard what my hon. Friend has to say. As I have said all the way through, what the House Commission will be doing is reviewing the recommendations in Dame Laura’s report and taking action as it sees fit. That is not a matter for me; that will be a matter for the House Commission.

Business of the House

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Thursday 12th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

The right hon. Lady can think it is good or not think it is good—it is entirely her choice. I do not mind. I am simply stating the factual position, but I think it is important to be sensitive to the fact that there is very considerable upset at the idea that people will not have seen a document about which there is to be a statement and upon which the Secretary of State has come to be questioned. People observing our proceedings from elsewhere might think that is a slightly curious state of affairs.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

I was going to make my normal plea for us to leave the building at the end of this month and lock it down for three months so we can get on with repairing it, but I am struck by what has been said, particularly by you, Mr Speaker. I am a friend of the Government and, frankly, I think it is pretty bad that journalists were given this document at 9 am when we Back Benchers have had no chance to read it. If I am lucky enough, I will ask a question on the statement. You will not want me beetling out of the Chamber to try to read the document. How can I possibly understand it? Of course I could do what I normally do and rubbish it before I have even read it but, as the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said, we are supposed to be a grown-up Parliament. It would have been possible for the Government to have taken us into their confidence and to have allowed us to start reading the document half an hour ago, at least.

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman has spoken, as he always does, with great eloquence. If I may say so, the Leader of the House will take what view she wants of what he says, but he has said it with very considerable style. I think there will be a feeling about the matter, but let us hear what the Leader of the House has to say.

Business of the House

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Thursday 7th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Andrea Leadsom]

It is always a great pleasure to work with the hon. Gentleman on providing time for Back-Bench debates, and I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee—all Members will be delighted to see the debate that has been selected for next Thursday.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

It is now some time since our debate on the restoration and renewal of Parliament, which I and my colleagues caused to happen. We were told then that there is a present fire risk to this Chamber and royal palace, yet we are still waiting for action. If there is a present fire risk, we should be setting up fire doors and stopping up vents, and one way we can start that work is by closing this building during the entire summer recess and getting on with it. If there is a fire risk, let us deal with it.

[Andrea Leadsom]

My hon. Friend raises an incredibly important issue, and I hope I can assure all hon. and right hon. Members that we are getting on with the restoration and renewal of the Palace of Westminster, as per the instructions from this House. He will realise that immediate issues of health and safety regarding fire, falling masonry or any other risk are things that the strategic estates programme works on instantly—they are not subject to the longer timeframe of restoration and renewal. My hon. Friend nevertheless makes a good point, and I am always happy to meet him and update him on our progress.