Abortion (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Monday 8th June 2020 General Committees

[Mrs Miller]

I will look carefully at the measure that my right hon. Friend is talking about because although this is a live debate, it should not fog what is a wrong and inappropriate system in Northern Ireland where women in very difficult situations have not been able to access a service which I am afraid his and my constituents would take for granted. That is not right.

Sir David, I will make progress and I am sorry to colleagues who would like to intervene—maybe I should speak a little more before accepting any further interventions. The simple truth that we found when we spoke to people on the ground in Northern Ireland of all views—it is our obligation as a Select Committee to have done that—was that there were some doctors who believed that referring women for an abortion in England was unlawful—fact; and that women were being forced to bring back the remains of their foetuses in their hand luggage because they were not able to be treated more formally for fear of being reported to the police. These are the sorts of things that we found in the Select Committee inquiry—practices that we would not accept in any other part of the United Kingdom. I gently ask DUP Members who are unhappy about this coming into play to look at the detail of those inquiry submissions to understand the reality of what was happening on the ground for too many women.

In the absence of an independent regulator of health in Northern Ireland, can the Minister confirm again—I asked him this question on the Floor of the House—who will monitor the implementation of these new regulations which have to include the expansion of training and medical facilities, because there is no independent regulator to do that? What obligations are there on the Northern Ireland Government to ensure that any future re-evaluation of this policy has to be human rights compliant and has to be compliant with the international obligations of the United Kingdom of which they are part?

The Select Committee recommendations included the very useful recommendation that the General Medical Council should run a campaign to raise awareness about how to complain about a doctor if they fall short on standards expected under the law, particularly with regard to abortion. That would help to increase public confidence and, perhaps, confidence among doctors about what is lawful and what is not lawful, because in our conversations with doctors only a year ago, it was clear there was a huge amount of confusion.

[Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I am following very carefully what the hon. Lady is saying. Does she agree that there is a role for the royal colleges as well in terms of the training and support that their members need to understand fully the new legislative background and framework that have been put into place? If any future changes to the regulations are not CEDAW compliant, what does she understand would happen? What measures could be taken to deal with that?

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[Dame Diana Johnson]

I am concerned about what the right hon. Gentleman just said. The past president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, Professor Lesley Regan, has made it clear that the safety of women taking tablets at home is not to be disputed. He needs to consider what he said about things in the press, because that is not backed up by scientific or professional evidence.

[Sir John Hayes]

Up until now, we have taken the view as a Parliament that, because abortion is a serious matter, there should be a structure and framework governing where it takes place that maximises the prospect of the safety that the hon. Lady and I want to guarantee. That is why we put it into the hands of medical professionals, and put limits on the places where it can happen. That is why we have a legal framework, and prohibit—indeed, penalise—abortions that take place outside it. My anxiety, like hers, is about guaranteeing safety and security, and I believe that that is done by the existing provisions. We therefore do not need to change them.

I want to reflect on a point that I have touched on briefly already about non-fatal disabilities. I find it deplorable that, in contradiction of all the notions of equality that we rightly promote in the 21st century, a child diagnosed with Down’s syndrome, a cleft lip, a cleft palate or a club foot can continue to be aborted. As the hon. Member for Upper Bann said, that clearly discriminates against disabled people. The last time that abortion regulations in England and Wales were examined in real depth was 1990, before the passing of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 and the Equality Act 2010. That is why, as I said earlier, I am pleased that a Bill is being introduced that will address that inequality. These regulations permit abortion up to birth on the grounds that the unborn child has been diagnosed with Down’s syndrome, a cleft lip, a cleft palate or a club foot in Northern Ireland. Where a child is capable of being born alive in Northern Ireland, this law will permit different treatment of those with disabilities and those without disabilities. That lawful discrimination will continue until the child is born. If this House were to endorse these regulations, we would be endorsing discrimination on the basis of disability. We would be endorsing applying the Equality Act to some and not all. We would effectively be saying that some lives matter less.

In conclusion, I urge Members to reject these regulations for two main reasons: devolution and equality. They are unconstitutional, and may actually be illegal—I have not got time to pursue that at great length, but that is certainly the view of the Attorney General for Northern Ireland; the question of whether they are legal was asked earlier; he certainly thinks that they are not.

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[Stella Creasy]

I am grateful that the right hon. Gentleman appears to have listened to what I said in the House. If we are honest, in debates, it sometimes feels that that is not always the case for those on opposing sides. If he listened to what I said then—and what I say now—it was that devolution did not absolve us of our responsibility. Indeed, the requirements of the European Court of Human Rights cross-cut to Northern Ireland as part of the Good Friday agreement.

The right hon. Gentleman says that we have always devolved this but, I genuinely suggest to him, the absence of legislation on Northern Ireland was in 1967. That was before the 1998 Good Friday agreement, which enshrined the responsibility of this place to uphold the human rights of the people in Northern Ireland, leading to the creation of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, which sought to address this issue but, as we discussed, was not able to do so because of a technicality. Does he want to suggest that there is a clear demarcation? Furthermore, I have not yet heard him advocate that other forms of human rights such as on torture should also be delegated to Northern Ireland. We do not do that; we recognise that some rights are universal and that, collectively, we have a responsibility to uphold them.

My point last year was that for too long, because of the absence of the Assembly, this issue had not been addressed. I ask those who today say that we should not agree to the regulations, if not these regulations, where is the alternative? Now that the Assembly is up and running, it can come up with alternative proposals. As yet, it has not.

The risk is twofold: first, the continuation of the abuse of the human rights of the women of Northern Ireland, whereby they are forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy because there is no safe, legal and local service for them; and, secondly, in the absence of regulation, now that we have repealed sections 58 and 59—I agree with Government Members who made this point—there is a gap, a lacuna, in what services are provided that needs to be addressed.

If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to advocate devolution, he should advocate what CEDAW-compliant regulations the Northern Ireland Assembly should be coming up with, so that we may navigate this terrain of being part of the United Kingdom, of upholding our human rights obligations and of recognising the role of local institutions in identifying how those regulations are provided. He should not be saying simply, “Put it back in the ‘Too Difficult’ box—let’s not go there.”

Having said all that, it is important for us to look at the legislation, at the regulations before us, and I am sure that the Chair wishes me to do so. The regulations implement what polls in Northern Ireland have been telling us for some time: the vast majority of people do not consider this to be a criminal matter but a medical one, requiring medical regulation, which is what the regulations do. That is the view of both the MLAs and the broader public. However, there is common ground to be found: we need to find a medical way of moving forward.

[Dame Diana Johnson]

I, too, pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend last summer to ensure that we are here today to discuss the regulations. Specifically, with the repeal of sections 58 and 59 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 as relating to Northern Ireland, we are left with England and Wales still covered by that Victorian law that could send women to prison for life. I wondered whether she would care to comment. Having repealed those sections, the use of regulation to establish a framework for an abortion law that works for the 2020s and beyond is not beyond the wit of man or woman any more. The Abortion Act 1967 should also now be considered ripe for reform, in line with the reforms that we are seeing in Northern Ireland.

[Stella Creasy]

My hon. Friend knows that she has my full support as she makes the argument that our constituents in Hull and Walthamstow should also be treated with dignity. I am always mindful that abortion is the only medical procedure in which we deny the patient the opportunity to consent. Were we to apply the same rules to having a vasectomy, for example—that somehow two doctors should decide for people whether they were entitled to have such a procedure—I suggest gently that some in Committee would be equally affronted by the denial of their rights to make a choice about their own body. They would not want to be forced to continue something that they did not wish to do.

I am mindful of time and what the Minister has said. I will press him on a number of issues, because it is right that, now we have made this choice to uphold the human rights of women in Northern Ireland, we should ensure that the regulations can be enacted in real time, so that women no longer have to wait. The Minister himself said that the reality is still that people have to travel. There have been thousands of such women, since it was required in 2017 that women in Northern Ireland at least be allowed to come to the NHS in England and Wales, and not be charged despite being UK citizens paying taxes towards the costs of those services. I am conscious that the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings was slightly confused when he talked about home user abortion. In England and Wales people can now take both pills at home. It is important that we recognise that we have made some progress in trusting women to make choices over their own bodies.

If the bodies in Northern Ireland continue to refuse to commission for any gestation at all, as they are doing at the moment, does that count as a breach of the regulations? Will the Minister answer that explicit question for us? It is untenable, those decisions have been taken, and the regulations having been brought in, for women to be required to travel, when that is not an option for many of them. It is not just because of cost. They might be in abusive relationships or have other childcare commitments. That is not the safe, legal and local service that the House overwhelmingly voted to extend to all women in the United Kingdom. Is what I mentioned therefore considered a breach of the CEDAW determination that the previous situation in Northern Ireland was

“violence against women that may amount to torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment”?

Any form of regulation, I suspect, would not find favour with Members from some parties who are present today, because it would allow women to make the choice to have an abortion. However, if the regulation is not commissioned, what does the Minister expect to do to make sure that we are CEDAW-compliant, and what is the timescale for that? How long, essentially, are we to ask women in Northern Ireland to continue to wait before their rights are upheld? The right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings talked about asking for time to regulate. Frankly, the Northern Ireland Assembly now has the time to regulate, but it shows no sign of doing so. Without that, and with the determination not to commission, there are no regulations in force, with the possibility of being in breach.

The regulations say that it should be possible to get an abortion in Northern Ireland under 12 weeks without any grounds. Are we in breach of those regulations at the moment? At the moment, it is possible only for some women under 10 weeks to get access to a service. At 10 weeks and one day they cannot, because the service is not being commissioned. The Minister talked about a good faith defence for medics. Will he clarify what sorts of cases he believes that is intended to safeguard against, so that we can understand better the scenarios he believes possible?

Finally, we talked about the 12-to-24-week provisions and the fact that it is possible to have an abortion in Northern Ireland if doctors say that there is a risk to physical or mental health. That is not a provision available to women in Northern Ireland at the moment. It has not been commissioned. It is a very rare occurrence. Most abortions take place before 10 weeks and the women have made that choice. When abortions happen later it is usually because of horrifically tragic circumstances such as those that Sarah Jane Ewart pointed out, when it is discovered that a child will die at birth. If we do not pass the regulations we are asking women to be in that position, and requiring them to continue and give birth to a baby they know will die. I do not think anyone in the Room would want that to happen, so we must regulate. There must be provisions so that in the horrific circumstance when women who go for a sonogram are told their baby will not live we are with them rather than judging them; offering them support to make the choice they want to make—not to continue the torture—rather than telling them there is no alternative. Will the Minister clarify whether there is an appeals process and, if so, what it might be, for women denied an abortion between 12 and 24 weeks because two doctors refuse it?

I stand with the right hon. Member for Basingstoke who talked about the importance of information. Above all, now that we have reached this point—having had the difficult conversation and heard the voices, and having been given the opportunity to get the legislation right and get the regulations—a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy would be a travesty. People in Northern Ireland deserve respect and to understand what services they are entitled to. Will the Minister clarify information processes? What information will there be for people whose doctors decide that they do not want to take part in the process and how will we make sure that they are not forced by delay in service delivery to wait for a later stage of pregnancy? Three years ago, we made a promise to the women of Northern Ireland when we first started this conversation and first looked at their right to be able to travel here that we were not done. If we are honest, we are not done yet with these regulations. We are much further down that road, but there is still much more work to be done.

I know the Minister recognises that and wants to see this through. It is important today that we vote for these regulations and get further along that road, but it is also important that we do not give up on ensuring that what we talk about in this place—those rights, that equality of being able to manage our own bodies and our own choices—is extended to all our citizens.

I thank the Minister for the work he has done. I will be voting for these regulations, and I recommit myself to working with those woman and men on the ground in Northern Ireland, to help to ensure that their voices continue to be heard in this process, until we are all truly, equally able to exercise our own rights. Surely that is the best of human rights, and that is the best of democracy.