Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Bill

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 25th May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising the case of his constituent. I would be grateful if he took it up with my officials, as I am keen to look into it. Throughout the passage of the Bill, individuals have raised cases with me. It is fair to say that the number of cases has declined substantially as the Bill has progressed through the House, so I am content that the position is getting much better, but if there are outstanding cases of situations that any MP feels is unfair, I will be grateful if they are brought to my attention.

To return to the case I was making for new clause 1, as with an initial agreement, if a consensual agreement cannot be reached about the additional right needed, operators will be able to ask the court to impose an additional agreement conferring the additional right. Of course, in those circumstances an operator would still have to satisfy the court that its application meets the requirements of part 4 of the code, including the public interest test.

Let me give an example of how the Government intend this to work. An operator may have an existing agreement which contains a code right to install a 3 metre high mast. Subsequently, the operator realises that it needs to install a 5-metre high mast on the same piece of land. That could enable the operator to install 5G technology or to improve or expand its network. The original agreement allowing the 3-metre mast will continue to run for its remaining term, and the operator will ask the site provider to enter into a second agreement, which contains a code right allowing it to install the 5-metre high mast.

Advances in technology occur at pace, whereas a code agreement can last for a number of years. If an operator has to wait until the term of its code agreement is about to expire before being able to obtain additional code rights, it will be unable to install the latest technology on its apparatus, meaning our constituents will be deprived of faster, more reliable services such as 5G and, in time, 6G. We think that the new clause is also vital to give UK businesses access to the technology they need, enabling our economy to thrive. I hope Members will therefore agree that it must be made.

Turning to new clause 2, we want to ensure that disputes relating to the electronic communications code can be dealt with as quickly and efficiently as possible. Currently, paragraph 95 of the code allows the Secretary of State to make regulations that confer jurisdiction on either the first-tier tribunal or upper tribunal in relation to England, but only the upper tribunal in relation to Wales. The current regulations made under paragraph 95 state that all code disputes must commence in the upper tribunal, although in England, appropriate cases may then be handed down to the first-tier tribunal. The first-tier tribunal has greater administrative resources and more judges than the upper tribunal, meaning that code disputes can be processed and heard more quickly.

Moving forward, the Government are therefore considering a greater role for the first-tier tribunal in hearing code disputes, including making further regulations using the power in paragraph 95 of the code where appropriate. The new clause provides the necessary powers so that we can do just that. In future, the Secretary of State will be able to make regulations conferring jurisdiction on both the upper tribunal and the first-tier tribunal in Wales.

The final set of Government amendments is amendments 4 to 7. They have been tabled to make a minor clarification to the text of clause 68 to avoid any unintended interpretation of the legislation. Clause 68 currently makes it clear that an operator can, at any time, give notice in writing to a person from whom they are seeking code rights, stating that the operator wishes to engage in alternative dispute resolution, often known as ADR. However, nowhere is it set out that such a notice can be sent from that person to the operator. The amendments clarify that when an operator seeks code rights from a person, either the operator or that person may give notice to the other expressing a wish to engage in ADR at any time.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

I certainly welcome the movement that the Minister has made. I went to table exactly those amendments and was pleased to find that she had beaten me to it. Can I tempt her to go further with respect to my amendment and amendment 4 and require the operator, which has such disproportionate power against the landowner, to engage as a requirement in the alternative dispute procedure from the outset?

[Julia Lopez]

I am afraid that my right hon. Friend cannot tempt me, and I will say why shortly.

I thank the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) for bringing forward amendments 14 to 17 to clauses 59 and 60. They would expand retrospective rights to upgrade and share apparatus in buildings owned by private landlords, such as blocks of flats, also known as multiple dwelling units or MDUs. I begin by saying that I have considered this issue carefully. I have been lobbied extremely heavily on it by one operator in particular, and I have tested the proposition with my officials, legal advisers and other operators.

I would not like to pre-empt what the hon. Lady might say as to why she tabled the amendments and their perceived need. However, I reassure her, and any others considering supporting them, that as a fellow London MP with many MDUs in my seat I am concerned about the dangers of a digital divide emerging, and I am doing what I can to avoid that circumstance. If I thought that the amendments genuinely helped on that front, I would do all I could to incorporate them, but there is a glaring lack of consensus among the telecoms industry about their need. Indeed, only one operator has contacted me in support of them, while four separate operators and representative bodies have strongly opposed the amendments, arguing that they are anti-competitive. I will talk a little more about that in a minute.

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The Law Commission voiced clear concerns at the time, arguing that it would lead to a fall in rent for landowners, and therefore a slowdown in the number of agreements being reached. As we heard in oral evidence, some landowners have seen their rents dwindle by as much as 90% in some cases, and as a consequence livelihoods have been turned upside down. These are welcome amendments, as they would mean that small tenant farmers, sports clubs and community organisations get a fairer deal for the land they are renting out.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

May I take it therefore that, if Madam Deputy Speaker is minded to allow separate decisions on my amendments, the hon. Gentleman will support them?

[Chris Elmore]

I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that we supported this in Committee. Sadly, the Members on his own side did not. I would be very glad if he pushed the amendments, through your good offices, Madam Deputy Speaker, and if he did so, I am sure we would all row in behind him. What the Minister and the Government Whips do could be a different conversation altogether, but I do not think that worries him anymore.

I now turn to Government amendments 4 to 7 and the right hon. Gentleman’s own amendments 10 and 11. We welcome amendments 4 to 7 to ensure that a person with whom an operator is seeking a code agreement may at any time give the operator notice that they wish to engage in alternative dispute resolution in relation to a prospective site-sharing agreement. While the pace of new agreements between landowners and operators has slowed down in recent years, small landowners have been unable to afford the cost of going to a tribunal to try to defend their property rights. When the Bill moves to the other place, we hope that a debate can continue on the possibility of making ADR mandatory, as suggested by amendments 10 and 11, for telecoms operators before threatening to take landowners to court for an agreement to be imposed.

As I have said from the start and certainly many times in Committee, we are not against this Bill, which is a welcome step in the right direction. However, there are certain areas that need to be tightened and improved, and I hope their lordships will have a full debate and bring forward much-needed amendments to ensure that we deliver the very best broadband roll-out right across the United Kingdom.

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[Sir Desmond Swayne]

My amendments 9 to 11 are designed to address what was made clear in the House on Second Reading, which is that there are examples of egregious bullying by the operators and that there is a complete disproportion of power between those operators and the landowners. The Minister has spoken of her demand for more collaborative working and collaborative negotiation, but we are asking for the process of alternative dispute resolution to be a requirement from the outset precisely because the operators know that they have the power to overawe and frighten landowners with the threat of legal action.

The purpose of my amendments 11 and 12, which was spelt out very well by the Minister, is to return to the status quo ante 2017. Until 2017, compensation was based on market value, and in 2017 the new code changed it to land value, notwithstanding the explicit advice of the Law Commission not to do so. As was entirely predictable and as was predicted, the market dried up as a consequence and there were far fewer agreements. One of the purposes of this Bill is of course to address that problem of the reduction in agreements. Therefore, the obvious remedy is to restore the position as it was and return to market value, but far from doing that—far from seizing this opportunity to remedy the situation—the Government are compounding their error by wanting to make agreements previously made under the old regime renewable under land value, actually making the problem significantly worse as a consequence.

I do not know why the Government appear to have adopted the anarchist principle that property is theft. On the contrary, these measures, by denying landowners proper compensation on the basis of market value—compensation arrived at by a free and open market—and coercing them accordingly to give up their property rights, strike me as theft. These provisions in the Bill are in effect a conspiracy to promote theft: it is stealing. I just cannot understand how a Conservative Government have brought themselves to bring this measure before the House, changing the law retrospectively and so damaging property rights. I just assume that Ministers simply have not realised the enormity of the change they are making. Accordingly, I believe these amendments are vitally necessary for the Bill.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call the SNP spokesperson.

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[Julia Lopez]

I am grateful to all Members who have spoken in this debate, to the Opposition for their support for the Bill, and to the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) in particular for the very collaborative approach he has taken throughout and his acknowledgement of the improvements we have made. I shall test officials on the further points he makes. I am also grateful to the hon. Member for Midlothian (Owen Thompson) for highlighting the product security parts of the Bill. Some of the detail he seeks will be in secondary legislation. Goods sold in online marketplaces, for instance, are not out of scope, because manufacturers, importers and distributors are covered. I would be happy to come back to him on some of the other points he raised.

On criticism of our roll-out, we are making substantial progress on our gigabit roll-out. We are now up to 68% coverage, up from 9% in 2019. I am open to any proposal to make roll-out go even faster. I have set out why competition is so important to that dynamic and why I think the amendments on MDUs are not the right way to go and could even slow the roll-out. I note the comments on BT Openreach. Other providers tell me that they have great teams negotiating wayleaves, that this is a straightforward process and that extra help on MDUs of the kind envisaged is simply not needed. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) for using KCOM as a great example of that, and for highlighting not only some of the good work that Openreach does, but the interesting example of his town deal, which I shall take away with me.

My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) made a typically fruity and passionate speech. We believe our legislation incentivises greater collaboration. I set out in detail earlier why that is the case. We believe that rents were too high. As the need for digital infrastructure increases, we think rents need to become more akin to those for utilities. I should never wish to be accused of seeing property as theft. Indeed, I confess to taking umbrage at my right hon. Friend’s assertion on Second Reading. That is why I have tested his proposition—

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

I withdraw.

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my right hon. Friend. I am glad that I have convinced him of the case. [Laughter.] As I say, I tested his proposition to death and concluded that there may be a case of creative hyperbole. I am glad he has also acknowledged that.

Question put and agreed to.

New clause 1 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 2

Jurisdiction of First-tier Tribunal in relation to code proceedings in Wales

In paragraph 95(1) of the electronic communications code (power to confer jurisdiction on other tribunals)—

(a) in paragraph (a), at the end insert “or the Upper Tribunal”;

(b) in paragraph (aa), for the words from “, but only” to the end substitute “or the Upper Tribunal”;

(c) omit paragraph (b).”—(Julia Lopez.)

This new clause gives the Secretary of State power to make regulations providing for a function conferred by the code on the court to be exercisable in relation to Wales by the First-tier Tribunal.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

Clause 57

Meaning of “occupier” in relation to land occupied by an operator

Amendment made: 1, page 40, line 11, leave out Clause 57.—(Julia Lopez.)

This amendment is consequential on NC1.

Clause 58

Rights under the electronic communications code to share apparatus

Amendments made: 2, page 41, leave out lines 23 to 25 and insert—

‘(4) In paragraph 9 (conferral of code rights), after sub-paragraph (2) (as inserted by section (Persons able to confer code rights on operators in exclusive occupation)) insert—”

This amendment is consequential on NC1.

Amendment 3, page 41, line 26, leave out “But”—(Julia Lopez.)

This amendment is consequential on NC1.

Clause 59

Upgrading and sharing of apparatus: subsisting agreements

Amendment proposed: 14, page 42, line 11, after “agreement”, insert

“other than with a private landlord”.—(Chris Elmore.)

This amendment, together with amendments 15, 16 and 17, would apply a different regime under the Electronic Communications Code to private landlords, giving automatic upgrade rights for operators to properties owned by private landlords subject to the condition that the upgrading imposes no additional burden on the other party to the agreement.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Bill

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Wednesday 26th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

The Secretary of State highlighted that the prices were once too high. Now we have had multiple complaints that the prices are too low. Clearly, the question of valuation is at the heart of the matter, so why did the Government explicitly exclude valuation from the scope of the consultation that preceded the Bill?

[Ms Dorries]

We have listened to landowners. We have not introduced the legislation without involving them in its development. We have included measures in the Bill that make it easier for landowners and operators to use a dispute resolution if landowners feel that they are not getting a fair price. That means greater collaboration, and it makes preposterously low offers less likely. Hopefully, a fair and reasonable price would be agreed. If landowners were not happy with it, it would go to independent arbitration. If they were then unhappy with that, they would have recourse to the courts, which we know would look very dimly on a situation where the telecom providers had been neither reasonable nor fair to landowners. We think that that is a fair and reasonable process.

Making the most of existing infrastructure can play a key role in upgrading services and increasing competition. Under the Bill, operators will have the automatic right to upgrade or share apparatus installed before the 2017 reforms. That will be subject to specific conditions to ensure that the work does not negatively impact landowners. The measures have been considered carefully to deliver significant benefits, while ensuring that there will be little impact on landowners. The Bill also rationalises the way that certain older code agreements are renewed so that they reflect the code as reformed in 2017. This means that there will be greater consistency in how agreements are renewed across the UK. On that basis, the 2017 coding agreements will not be revisited.

All those things will make much better use of existing infrastructure, reducing the need for new installations. That means less disruption with fewer street works and fewer mast installations in both rural and urban settings—something that, I am sure, will welcomed in all parts of the House. We will take away that community disruption. In response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood), I will take away his point about cables being laid under roads. In the area where I live, it is done under the pavement right outside my house. I would imagine that there is a good reason why that has to happen in some areas, but I will get back to him with what it is.

Secondly, we want to build stronger, more constructive relationships between network operators and potential site providers. We are introducing measures to make it easier for those two parties, when negotiating agreements to install telecoms apparatus, to use an alternative form of dispute resolution if a disagreement arises such as I have set out. This will encourage constructive dialogue between networks, operators and potential site providers. It will help new agreements be reached more quickly and address situations where landowners may feel compelled to accept terms offered by operators.

Finally, we are creating a new court process to address situations where landowners are not responsive. This process will provide a quick and inexpensive route for operators to gain access to certain types of land. Again, these measures have been developed to strike the balance between protecting landowners and ensuring that everyone across the UK has access to reliable and quick digital infrastructure.

We need this infrastructure because of the sheer demand on our networks. Just think of all the devices that are in use at this very moment. Millions of people will be switching on their smart TVs to stream a film or a series box-set, unlocking their phones or tablets to call a friend or a relative, or asking their smart speakers to play music or give information. Around this Chamber, right now, many wrists are sporting smartwatches that keep us up to date with the latest news or alert us to the fact that we have a new message from those infamous WhatsApp groups. [Laughter.] Sorry—I just couldn’t resist.

But with every connectable product that enters our lives, the risk of cyber-attack grows. In the first half of 2021 alone, we saw 1.5 billion attacks on connectable products—double the figure for the same period in 2020. Most of us assume that if a product is for sale in the UK it is safe and secure, but thousands of people in the UK have been victims of cyber-attacks. Many of them have lost significant amounts of money or have had their private data hacked and shared, and they have lost trust in the idea that they can connect with one another and go about their daily lives with confidence. This is not just damaging on a personal level; it also has serious implications for our national security. Cyber-criminals now have the ability to use compromised connectable products to attack large infrastructure. We saw this with the 2016 Mirai attack, which targeted anything from baby monitors to medical devices to home appliances to disable internet access across much of the US east coast.

In the past few years, this Government have made significant progress to strengthen the UK’s cyber-security. In 2018, we published a code for manufacturers to improve the security of their own consumer devices. We led the world on this, and that code has since been used by countries such as Australia and India to inform their own product security principles. However, the cyber landscape is constantly evolving and our approach needs to evolve with it if we want to stay safe.

We have reached the point at which legislation is required to protect citizens and networks from the harm posed by cyber-criminafls. Packaged together, the telecoms and product safety measures in the Bill will work in tandem to do just that, creating a reliable, fast broadband while supporting the growth of more secure consumer connectable products.

The Bill will enable the Government to specify a number of mandatory security requirements for smart devices. They will be set out in regulations, but manufacturers are already on notice regarding what the initial three requirements will be. The first is a ban on universal default passwords. Too often, consumer connectable products come with easy-to-guess passwords as their default setting, such as “password”, “admin” or four zeros. That makes them vulnerable to hacking, and risks compromising a user’s privacy and security right from the get-go. Under this new security requirement, all passwords that come with a new device will need to be unique and not easily guessable.

The second mandatory requirement is for manufactured consumer connectable products to provide a public point of contact so that security researchers and others can easily report when they discover security vulnerabilities, flaws and bugs in their devices. Manufacturers can then quickly identify and address any shortcomings in their products. At present, nearly 80% of firms have no such system in place.

Finally, manufacturers will be required to be completely transparent about how often, and for how long, their products will receive security updates and patches. According to the current guidance that is being commonly issued, if we update our computers regularly when asked to do so and use two-step verification, 90% of cyber-attacks can be avoided. The requirement for manufacturers to be transparent about how often their product will receive security updates is intended to help consumers to know at which point they will need to do that.

Businesses will have to give customers that information at the point of sale, and keep them updated throughout. If a product will not be covered by security updates, that must be disclosed. That will enable consumers to have all the facts that they need to make an informed decision about their purchase, to understand when the product they buy could become vulnerable, and to base their decision on whether or not to buy on that information. When the security requirements have not been complied with, businesses will not be allowed to make these products available in the UK. We will be able to monitor, investigate and take enforcement action against non-compliant businesses.

We have been setting consumer standards of this kind for decades. Every product on our shelves has met all sorts of minimum requirements, whether to ensure that it is fire-resistant or to ensure that it is not a choking or suffocation hazard. It should be no different in the digital age. The Bill allows us to protect people across the UK even as the world around us changes. It allows us to keep pace with technology as it transforms our everyday lives. Combined with the measures on the telecoms infrastructure, it will do a huge amount in the coming years to benefit our constituents and society at large.

I hope that Members will show their support for the Bill, and that the benefits can be realised as quickly as possible. I commend the Bill to the House.

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[Lucy Powell]

It is just as well you are in the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker!

We have here another infrastructure Bill. As with every big infrastructure project this Government oversee, from the northern rail betrayal to the disastrous green homes schemes, the broadband and 5G roll-out has been beset with piecemeal, short-term thinking. The Government try to get British infrastructure built on the cheap, relying on the private sector, which more often than not means foreign state-run companies. On the broadband roll-out, the Government have wasted a decade and squandered the world-leading position left by the last Labour Government. This Government’s legacy over 10 years has seen huge delays in the superfast broadband roll-out, and a widening in the digital divide. Why were we not, 10 years ago, investing in a public-private partnership, so that home-grown British businesses could develop our own 5G network? Instead of looking towards the future, and building up British capacity and resilience, the Government have left us reliant on Huawei and other foreign state-backed companies for our 5G, with all the security complications that that entails.

This Bill deals with a couple of specific aspects of the broadband and 5G roll-out: part 1 places security requirements on manufacturers of smart devices and part 2 amends the electronic communications code, which governs the rules on how rent is set for community groups and others to host phone masts on their land.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

The hon. Lady is no Stalinist. Given that the underlying principle of part 2 of the Bill is the Stalinist principle that property is theft, will she be opposing it on Second Reading?

[Lucy Powell]

I must object to that suggestion that I am a Stalinist. I am, however, someone who believes that there should be a fair —

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

No Stalinist!

[Lucy Powell]

Oh, no Stalinist. I am someone who believes that there should be a fair valuation, and a fair and balanced approach taken to those who put masts on their land in good faith, expecting that income to come in the future. I will say more on that shortly.

We support the measures in part 1. Smart devices have increasingly become targets for fraud, surveillance and other forms of cyber-attack. We have some concerns that these measures have not come sooner and do not go further. In 2016, the Government promised that

“the majority of online products and services coming into use”

would be

“’secure by default’ by 2021”.

Why are the Government only just bringing this legislation in, given that previous commitment? These requirements should and could have been mandatory from the start, as opposed to our spending four years with a voluntary code. I have real concerns that we are always behind the technology curve. These devices are already being used in ways beyond the scope of this Bill—for example, by stalkers and abusive partners in tracking those they are abusing, as well as in fraud and criminal activity. There is nothing in this Bill about that, let alone measures to address new waves of technology that are already making their way into people’s homes and lives, such as virtual reality.

Moving to part 2, our main concern with this Bill is that it is likely to slow down, rather than speed up, the broadband and 5G roll-out.

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[Sir Desmond Swayne]

The hon. Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper) intimated that people would want to take their land back as a consequence of the changes. I hope that she has identified that that is not possible. People will not get their land back unless they are going to develop it, and even then, they would have to go to court to get it.

[Lucy Powell]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that the Bill and the previous code mean that those cricket grounds, sport clubs and churches in all hon. Members’ constituencies that had phone masts put on their property in good faith to give them income that they would not otherwise have, which in many cases keeps them going, have been offered dramatically reduced rents but are forbidden by law from taking the masts down. They are between a rock and a hard place. It will put many of those community groups, and the roll-out, at risk.

There is a real risk that the Bill will hamper, rather than support, faster broadband and 5G roll-out, so what assessment has the Secretary of State made of the effect of the 2017 changes on rent levels and on the speed of roll-out? Given that previous reforms to the code have resulted in no demonstrable improvement, what makes her think that strengthening the hand of telecoms firms will speed up the roll-out, rather than simply allowing them to increase their profits further? I think that is the thinking behind the now not-selected reasoned amendment tabled by the right hon. Member for New Forest West, with which I have a great deal of sympathy.

The Opposition support the broad approach of the Bill, but the security measures are too little, too late and are behind the technology curve rather than in front of it.

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[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

I have been asked to vote for some pretty awful stuff over the past couple of years, but this has to be the most profoundly un-Conservative measure. It will compound the damage that was done to rights of property in 2017, and the proposal to amend the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954 will extend that damage to other walks of our national life, fundamentally undermining our position as a stable and predictable place in which to invest.

The digital roll-out has been stymied by changes that have brought about the very reverse of what was originally intended with the changes to the code in 2017. As a consequence, our constituents have been intimidated and bullied.

I have a constituent who refused a survey—she did not want a mast, because it would compromise her existing enterprise—but caved in when she was threatened with court action. Then, when she refused the terms of the mast, she was presented with statutory orders requiring access for both a temporary and a permanent mast. Of course, getting legal advice comes at an enormous cost. Happily, New Forest national park authority has thrown out the applications for both masts, but the battle, the uncertainty and the cost continue.

I have a group of constituents in a block who have let their collective roof for an antenna over the past few years and received an income, but have now received a demand with menace for a dramatic reduction in the income. They are having to deal with a demand for a 30-year lease of their entire roof. It is really quite extraordinary how the terms of trade have been rigged against landowners.

The Secretary of State presented the matter as if the problem were the landowners—as if we have to find ways of getting landowners to become more reasonable. When I had a meeting with the Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure, she reassured me with the alternative dispute resolution process, which we have heard about from the Secretary of State today. The problem with that procedure is that it is not mandatory. The telecom companies know that they do not need to engage with it, because they can afford to go to court and their victims cannot. That is the difficulty—that is the outrage that we have created.

It is no wonder that the whole roll-out has stalled and that no one wants to give access for a mast, because the income is not worth it and the consequences are frankly deplorable. Small farms, churches and small sports clubs used to have an income, but it has now crashed and they have all the uncertainty and inconvenience of continuing to host a mast. As I pointed out in an intervention on the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell), there is no prospect of getting their land back without court action and development.

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

Sports clubs, parish halls, village halls and the like have seen a real depreciation in their income because of non-use as a result of covid, so does my right hon. Friend agree that this is precisely the worst possible time for an enforced reduction in their income? Many of them will have hard-baked an expectation into their future financial forecasts.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Of course, and these are the very people—the hearts of our community—who are now identified as the villains whom the Bill creates more power to bring to heel. It is the most monstrous piece of legislation that has been brought before us, and we should deal with it accordingly. We had a functioning market in 2016, and in 2017 we brought in measures. Whitehall has destroyed that market, egged on by rapacious telecom companies, and this Bill will make it even worse.

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[Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak in another debate on improving the nation’s connectivity. My hon. Friend the Minister is well aware of connectivity issues in places such as Ilfracombe in my constituency, as has been so well documented recently, so I very much welcome the steps that the Bill is taking to begin to address some of the issues that have slowed down infrastructure deployment.

I am chair of the all-party parliamentary group on broadband and digital communications. We produced our own inquiry into the electronic communications code in November last year, and we are so pleased to see some of our recommendations materialising in part 2 of the Bill, focusing on telecommunications infrastructure. It is on part 2 that I will focus my comments.

The Government set a manifesto commitment to improve the UK’s broadband connectivity—a manifesto that I was proud to stand on, having heard on far too many doorsteps back in 2019 about my constituents’ connectivity concerns. The telecoms sector has experienced lengthy delays in securing access agreements since the electronic communications code was reformed back in 2017, and the Bill clearly intends to help speed up the deployment of this vital infrastructure. It is therefore warmly welcomed, in the main, by me, industry and the APPG alike.

One of the asks from our inquiry was to have a clear distinction between fibre and mobile infrastructure. It is important that the code works for both, and mobile operators welcome the Bill, which will accelerate the deployment of 4G and 5G. The new code had led to significant delays in reaching agreements with landlords, particularly where operators need to renegotiate leases as they expire, or where additional equipment needs to be added in order to upgrade or share sites to improve the service. The Bill before us seeks compromise between industry and landlords, while noting concerns in rural Britain among organisations such as the NFU, so well articulated by my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne).

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Does my hon. Friend support making the alternative dispute resolution procedure mandatory?

[Selaine Saxby]

My right hon. Friend makes a noble point, to which I will allow our hon. Friend the Minister to respond.

I recognise the need to balance competing interests carefully. The single greatest barrier the fixed infrastructure sector faces in the code is obtaining wayleaves and protracted negotiations with unresponsive landlords. To deliver in rural constituencies such as mine, large numbers of wayleaves to cross private land will be needed, which is seen as a risk to Project Gigabit’s success in rural Britain. Landlord negotiations to gain access to multi-dwelling units have also been problematic. The industry warmly welcomes the provisions of the Bill that would fast track wayleave negotiations via the alternative dispute resolution scheme, which will help to level up islands of poor digital connectivity, which too often centre on social housing stock.

Sharing historical wayleave agreements and the underground duct network is also warmly welcomed, although concerns remain about whether the Bill is intended to address the problem of accessing poles situated above ground on private land, which is a particular concern in rural communities, where much of the network is built overhead on poles. I hope that clarity on that point will be given as the Bill proceeds. There is also concern that the Bill does not address automatic upgrade and sharing rights of existing infrastructure, either inside blocks or flats, or overground on poles.

The pandemic has clearly showed how vital connectivity is to all our communities, as those without good broadband have struggled with so much during the pandemic. Too many schoolchildren have explained to me the problems of the circle of doom, so I thank Openreach again for coming to the aid of some of my more rural primary schools and expediting their broadband connection; but I remain concerned that this piecemeal approach to connectivity and the focus on competition in urban conurbations is reducing fibre access altogether in rural Britain. If we are truly to level up our rural communities, speeding up our digital roll-out to them is vital.

Given that my constituency resides at position 607 out of 650, I am sure the Minister is not surprised to find me here again, asking for more to be done across the north, and indeed the whole, of Devon. In this day and age, fibre broadband is a utility, and there should be universal provision. Rural constituencies such as mine should not be left behind to facilitate market competition in our towns and cities. The Bill is a great step forward, and I hope that some of the industry’s concerns will be addressed as it proceeds. The Secretary of State has clearly noted my campaigning, as has the Minister, so I very much hope it will be rewarded with faster rural roll-out than is currently planned in North Devon, before any other visitors to my lovely constituency find themselves in an all-too-readily-available North Devon notspot.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Warman (Boston and Skegness) (Con)]

As the shadow spokesperson, the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell), said, this is a technical Bill, but it is hugely important and will make a real difference. It will build on the incredible speed of the gigabit roll-out programme—up to 65% from just 11% two years ago. That is, whether she likes it or not, the fastest roll-out in the world, delivered under the Minister, and indeed under her predecessor—but I will leave that to the rest of the House to judge. She is right, however, to say that we should be doing everything we can to go as fast as we possibly can. I humbly submit that setting the large number of broadband providers that operate in this country in competition against each other to get as much of the country connected as possible, is one of the ways that is delivering that incredible roll-out speed and I think she should welcome that.

None the less, it is important to make sure that the operators that seek to deliver the roll-out are able to access the land they need. My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) made a passionate speech, possibly one that none of us was expecting in this kind of debate, in defence of landowners. Landowners are a crucial part of getting the roll-out right, but I say gently to him that there has been an incredibly successful lobbying campaign on behalf of those landowners, who, for a very long time, have had a very good deal. The 2017 proposals to cut the amount of money they receive, bringing it in line with other utilities—we could argue about whether broadband is technically a utility—was absolutely the right thing to do. It is what will speed up the roll-out programme.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

rose—

[Matt Warman]

I will let my right hon. Friend intervene in a minute. He talked about the benefit to landowners. When we get the roll-out right and get masts at as many locations as possible, the benefit accrues not to landowners primarily but to all the communities that live around them. That is where we should be focusing, not primarily on the small number of landowners who are concerned.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

I am only interested in the lobbying of my constituents who have been so harshly affected. We have heard the stories of the 90% and 95% reductions in income. This has made things very much less expensive for the companies concerned. Where has that money gone? It has certainly not been invested in the programme.

[Matt Warman]

My right hon. Friend does not make a wholly unreasonable point, but ultimately that money is going into an incredibly rapid roll-out of 5G. In rural areas in particular, we are seeing the industry putting in half a billion pounds of its own money alongside half a billion pounds of Government money to get to some of those hardest to reach places, so I fundamentally do not accept his premise, which is that the industry is not investing as it should. I would like the Government to go even further to see even more investment. He is right to focus on some of the small areas that rely on this income. However, that cannot be the main economic driver for the roll-out of 5G.

--- Later in debate ---

[Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con)]

I applaud the Government for the energy they are putting into trying to improve our connectivity. There are undoubtedly still notspots in my rural constituency. Having Zoomed constantly in my River Severn village throughout the pandemic, I find that the pizza wheel of doom—when the tinternet is struggling and people freeze in strange positions—is no longer funny; it is just annoying. I recognise that improvements are needed, and I see what the Government are trying to do, but many of my constituents are experiencing a David and Goliath situation, which I am worried about. That is where I will focus my comments.

Trying to deal with the might of the telecommunications companies is a pretty scary feat for any constituent, even before some of the tactics that I have sadly seen deployed. In my short tenure as Stroud’s MP, since the 2019 election, I have dealt with a number of mast issues; some people are amazed by how many mast issues have come up locally. I will summarise a couple. The Minister has been kind enough to look at case studies in my area. There have been issues with masts in Painswick village, where, sadly, Stroud District Council infamously missed a deadline that effectively led to permission being given by default on a controversial site. That matter rumbles on and has caused a lot of upset and stress for neighbours and the landowner. I understand other councils in the country have faced this issue.

There have been local applications in little villages in areas of outstanding natural beauty that effectively rely on terrifying elderly landowners. A village clubbed together to get professional advice to support a landowner to deal with that. A Stroud farmer currently receives a £10,000 annual rent payment for an existing mast but has been offered a significantly lower amount. We know that farmers struggle to make ends meet and that the Government are telling them to diversify, so these incomes can be fundamental to getting food on their own tables, let alone putting food on ours. Negotiation is limited—this farmer is a big, burly guy who does not feel bullied and told the company to take the mast away—but it goes on and on, and he does not feel like he is in a strong position.

If the Bill relies on the courts for remedy, I believe the roll-out will continue to stall. Courts are the remedy only for those who can afford it. Disputes have drastically increased, as have stress, frustration and anger, since the 2017 changes, and I fear it will get worse. The electronic communications code—this is a bit more technical—grants code operators the right to access land to install and maintain apparatus and to seek such rights to be imposed by the courts where agreement cannot be reached. One key change introduced in 2017 was to modify the pricing mechanism that the court should apply; as we heard, there has not been a proper look at pricing and valuation, even in the consultation on the Bill. The pricing mechanism was changed from market value to realign it along similar principles to compulsory purchase—we all know how painful compulsory purchase has been for many of our communities, not just Stroud—with statutory assumptions to place the valuation in the no-scheme or network world. That change was against the findings and recommendations of the Law Commission, and effectively of Nordicity and Analysys Mason, which is beyond my pay grade but I am told is important.

We are now in a situation where code operators typically portray landlords as a grasping group who cause delay to hold them to ransom for more rent. That is not my experience. Where code operators seek to acquire new sites, there are a range of different reasons why challenges are put up by constituents, local villages and local communities. I will give a few of the common themes I have come across. High on the list is the potential effect on, or conflict with, the landlord’s own use of the wider landholding and other tenants’ activities. The potential impact on the landlord’s own future development aspirations and the visual impact of unsightly and often poorly designed electronic communications apparatus on the wider landholding or host building are high up the list before rent comes into it, along with: adverse impacts on neighbours or disputes with neighbours about a mast going up; adverse effects on the marketability of other land or buildings; adverse impacts on the investment value; structural issues and future maintenance of a building or structure on the site; the extent of extended health and safety or drop or fall zones; and the implications of further development granted as permitted development. All those are on the list. It is not just about rent or money.

Stroud constituents inform me that the code operators have sadly proved generally insensitive and unsympathetic to addressing such issues. Instead they have interpreted the ECC changes as granting them rights over any third-party land almost for free and on terms that they can dictate, so that they can do almost anything at any time. It is that mindset of entitlement over private rights, and the blinkered belief that digital communications are the only important thing, that are influencing decisions.

The code operators are looking to acquire large numbers of sites and to renew hundreds of leases. Given the process-orientated targets internally, no doubt the resource is driven by objectives and milestones, and less by humans—the people it affects. I fully accept that we are thinking about humans all over the country when we are trying to improve connectivity, but I worry about the balance. Bullying local people is not acceptable. No matter how much my Stroud constituents want faster this, that and the other—and, in many cases, how much we need connectivity actually to work—they do not want their neighbours to be bullied and they expect Government legislation to protect the weaker party. By any analysis, it is usually the constituent landowner, not the telecommunications organisation, that is usually the weaker party.

Local councillors tell me that they feel pretty impotent on this issue. Constituents do not feel that their local councils have any power, so there is a disconnect between who they feel protected by and the changes with the legislation. I will give the House a bit of an overview of the process that constituents have outlined. Mr Deputy Speaker, please shout or nod at me if you want me to wind up, because I realise that I am taking some time, but these are important points.

The process starts with a landlord being approached by a site acquisition agent—not necessarily a well-known company—seeking access to land to undertake a survey. That request is then accompanied by a threat, effectively, to gain access via an application to the upper tribunal, and this is pointed out as almost impossible to resist, with the likely cost of a vast sum of money to the landowner in the case of resistance. I am thinking not about my big burly farmer, but about the elderly landowner who is worrying about this. Access is often granted unwillingly, which confuses neighbours and starts arguments locally. A survey is then undertaken and the landlord is sent a set of heads of terms, sometimes with an imploding offer of capital payment if they are agreed within a short period. Without any real attempts to negotiate or listen to concerns raised, notices are then served under the ECC, which cock the gun for reference to an upper tribunal again for the imposition of an agreement.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

I thank my hon. Friend for so clearly summing up the process of what the Secretary of State called “community engagement”.

[Siobhan Baillie]

I only wish I was as beautifully dramatic and exciting as my right hon. Friend when I spoke. I am conscious that I am reading a list to the Chamber, but it is an important list because it shows the experience of so many constituents. It may be dull, but it is scary, and it is a very worrying time for our constituents.

If residents and businesses are lucky—some of my constituents have been—it is usually at around this stage that they instruct professional support, because they are so worried. They start to think about how to object to the application. It is pretty late in the game—a long way down the track—but often people do not realise that it is an option and a lot cannot afford it. However, I am being told that people are successful in getting the applications refused in most cases where professional support is provided.

The lack of investment by the code operators in good-quality design, and the lack of mitigating features such as screening or structural landscaping, reflect the arrogant assumption that they can simply pass on societal costs of their development to the public at large, while simultaneously claiming that planning is a barrier to deployment. All those things are often lost in that long process before we get help to understand what really should be brought into the planning applications.



It is clear that, where planning permission is granted, landlords come under the real threat of a reference to the upper tribunal, and given the extremely high costs of litigation, quite a lot of people will fold at that point, regardless of the merits of their case. I have to believe that the code operators do not set out to behave in an egregious manner. I have met so many staff from telecommunications companies who come to consultations, and they are good people who want to find solutions, but time and again, these are programmes that the agents, acting on their behalf, are running through. My fear is that the totality of the changes we are looking at now, far from redressing the balance of power, will tip the scales further in favour of the code operators. As a consequence, the proposed changes in the Bill will actually exacerbate the marketplace issues being experienced, even if they try to resolve some of the legal anomalies.

I fear that we have lost sight of the mission, which is how best to deploy networks in the most appropriate places. We are trying to fix the issues we have experienced since 2017 with a piece of misused and, in effect, abused legislation that was supposed to be used as a last resort, but is now very much used de rigueur by the companies. I do not think that is the way to make improvements for the landowners and the companies, nor is it a way to roll out the improvements the country wants to see.

I want to know from the Minister how the Bill addresses what has become the main issue with the framework, which is the way costs fall on landowners and have in effect become the latest bludgeon to beat them with. The cost of seeking advice is high and will often far outweigh any consideration that is offered, even over a 10-year period. Whatever the merits of the landlord’s position, to contest any matter in the courts is very costly, and the extreme costs associated with losing mean that few but the largest with much at stake will be able to take that step, as I have mentioned. However, I think we have to keep hammering the point home.

I want to know, given that we have the experiences of things such as the water companies and the environmental fights happening all over the country, and given that we know that the Human Rights Act 1998 and article 6 provide the right to a fair hearing, why we are not seeking to strengthen the alternative dispute resolution option and thinking about making it mandatory. I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman), who is learned, in that I do not see why we should wait to see if the measure fails before we make improvements that will support everybody to achieve the goals.

Finally, I was really disappointed that we have not worked harder to think carefully about the valuations. The information coming forward is that it is not about a slight chunk off what there is already or even an attempt to rebalance the ability to look at utility companies; the offers coming out to people with masts on their land is a dramatic change. It does not feel fair and will not achieve the goals, and I would like to hear from the Minister whether we can take another look at the valuation structure.

This has been a negative speech, but I thank the Government for the work they are doing. However, I think we can do better for everybody involved, and by doing better we will achieve some serious connectivity throughout the country, particularly in rural areas.

Oral Answers to Questions

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 18th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Can I have a meeting with the Minister of State to share my concerns about the telecommunications code?

[Mr Speaker]

I am sure it is a straightforward yes, and then we can move on.

Oral Answers to Questions

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 5th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Dinenage]

My hon. Friend is right to bring this issue to our attention. We understand that this remains a challenging period for many organisations in the arts and entertainments sector. Some £258 million of the cultural recovery fund has been held back with a view to offering further support based on evidenced need later in the financial year. Meanwhile, organisations can, of course, take advantage of the financial support measures that were made available by the Government and recently extended, including the various business grant and loan schemes, and the furlough scheme.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care on the criteria for allowing singing in public during the covid-19 outbreak.

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Caroline Dinenage)]

The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport has engaged extensively with Public Health England to provide clear guidance on singing. The development of the guidance enabled both professional and non-professional activity to take place in a covid-secure manner in a range of settings and contexts over recent months. However, in line with new restrictions coming into force today, amateur activity can no longer take place.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

I am glad that my hon. Friend has confirmed that at least professionals can continue to rehearse and perform. When will the rest of us be allowed to sing again without some marshal or other agent of her totalitarian state seeking to prevent us?

[Caroline Dinenage]

I am sure that, like me, Mr Speaker, you are holding your breath until the day that we can both enjoy my right hon. Friend’s impressive falsetto once again, but in the meantime I am pleased to confirm that performing arts professionals may continue to rehearse, train and perform for broadcast, recording or livestream purposes. Of course, the intention after this four-week period is for an easement of restrictions back into the tiered system that previously operated throughout the country, in which case my right hon. Friend will be able to be in fine tune, to all our great delight, once more.

Oral Answers to Questions

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 24th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill.

[The Attorney General (Suella Braverman)]

I regularly meet the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to discuss important issues of common interest. The United Kingdom Internal Market Bill is an essential and landmark piece of legislation, which will safeguard and enrich our precious Union. The Bill is a prudent step to create a legal safety net and to take powers in reserve, whereby Ministers can guarantee the integrity of the UK and protect the peace process.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

So it does not break any law, does it?

[The Attorney General]

Consideration of and voting for this Bill do not constitute a breach of the law. However, there are powers in the Bill which, if and when exercised, will operate to disapply treaty obligations at the international law level—in particular, article 4 of the withdrawal agreement, and articles 5 and 10 of the Northern Ireland protocol. Parliamentary supremacy means that it is entirely constitutional and proper for Parliament to enact legislation, even if it breaches international treaty obligations. I am glad that my right hon. Friend voted in support of section 38 of the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020, which made it clear that parliamentary supremacy will prevail over international law.

Arts, Culture and Heritage: Support Package

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Tuesday 7th July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Dinenage]

As I say, we will be setting out in the next few days and weeks exactly how the package will work,  how people can apply for the money and what the restrictions will be on the amount that can be applied for.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Has the Minister listened to “The Archers” recently? It is suicidal. Will she reflect on the fact that the majority of us are more likely to die by our own hand than we are from the virus?

[Caroline Dinenage]

I will reflect very hard on that. I am a great fan of “The Archers”, obviously.

Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Bill

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons & Programme motion
Wednesday 22nd January 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Matt Warman)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

With apologies to T.S. Eliot, it is obvious that the naming of Bills is a difficult matter, but this Bill’s title does not do it justice. The Government are committed to delivering the infrastructure that this country needs, and the Bill is the first step on that road. To continue to channel T.S. Eliot, we know that if we do not deliver that infrastructure, too much of this country will be a digital wasteland.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

The Minister is right: this is the first part of a much greater endeavour. An increasing number of younger people find that they can do without a landline at all, so can he reassure me that this great, expensive endeavour will not be overtaken by the development of new technology, particularly as regards 5G, that will render it obsolete?

[Matt Warman]

I can absolutely assure my right hon. Friend that our approach to connectivity is technology-agnostic, and 5G is very much part of the solution, rather than something leading to the exclusion of connectivity. He is right to imply that we aim to go significantly beyond current demand to pre-empt the sort of problem that would occur if we did not build far in advance.

The Prime Minister and this Government have been unwavering in their commitment to the delivery of high-speed, reliable, resilient connectivity to every home and business as soon as possible. For the United Kingdom to remain at the forefront of the global economy, our businesses and consumers must have access to the tools they need to thrive. Already, our superfast broadband programme covers over 96% of the country and has brought connectivity to more than 3 million premises that would otherwise have been bypassed by commercial deployment.

Online Pornography: Age Verification

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 17th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Matt Warman]

I sympathise with what the hon. Lady seeks to achieve, but we can do more by going slightly slower. As I have said, we will respond to the consultation by Christmas and bring forward legislation for prelegislative scrutiny in the new year. I hope that she will work with us on that. We will, of course, seek to bring forward this part of that agenda much more rapidly than the whole package, because, as she says, this is hugely important. Getting it right is important, but getting it enacted quickly is also important.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Does the Minister recall the nerve required to reach for Health and Efficiency and the looks at the counter as it was put in a paper bag? What is out there now makes H&E look like a nursery rhyme. His approach really is going to be comprehensive, is it not?

[Matt Warman]

I am afraid I am too young to recall precisely the experience to which my right hon. Friend refers—and I am sure he was speaking on behalf of others, rather than himself. However, he is absolutely right that what is out there on the internet now pales into insignificance compared with everything that was printed for newsagents. That is precisely why we have to go so much further.

Oral Answers to Questions

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 11th April 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor General]

The hon. Gentleman is right to raise this deeply concerning issue. I am happy to report that there have been a number of successful prosecutions of gangs who engage in this despicable and criminal behaviour. That is as a result of a change of culture that means the victims of these crimes are taken far more seriously than they were even a few years ago. So there is progress.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

3. If he will make an assessment of the effect of social media on the administration of justice.

[The Solicitor General (Robert Buckland)]

The response to the call for evidence on the impact of social media on the administration of justice was published on 5 March this year. We concluded that, whereas at present social media are not having a widespread impact on the trial process, this may not remain the case if the issues identified are not addressed. The Government are responding in a number of ways, including a new gov.uk webpage to support the public in understanding how they can responsibly comment on criminal trials in social media.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Do users, who appear to have an opinion on everything, have any idea what the law actually is?

[The Solicitor General]

I do sometimes wonder. It should be as plain as a pikestaff to anyone that the criminal trial process has to have integrity and be based on the evidence heard in court. That is why the new contempt online webpage sets out clear and accessible information for the public on what might be considered contempt. I reassure my right hon. Friend that the law officers take robust action where there is evidence of contempt.

Leaving the EU: Mobile Roaming Charges

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 7th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Wright]

The hon. Gentleman expressed a commendable interest in my diary for yesterday. Let me remind him that I was having meetings on the subject of online harms, which he and I had discussed on what I thought was a cross-party basis some time before he made his speech yesterday. I was also spending some time discussing problem gambling with the banks and with the all-party parliamentary group on gambling related harm, which is led by his hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris).

I know that the hon. Gentleman cares about both those subjects and would wish me to spend time on them, but he need not worry, because I have also been spending some time on this subject. Having done so, I can tell him that it will be discussed by this House because this is an affirmative statutory instrument. The Government have set out their view that it should be an affirmative statutory instrument, which will give the House an opportunity to debate this subject, so the hon. Gentleman or one of his colleagues will be able to discuss the matter in some detail when that debate is reached.

The hon. Gentleman says that we are caving in to the mobile phone operators, but the reality is that when we leave the European Union—that is what is going to happen, because the Government and the Opposition, if I understand their current position correctly, intend to respect the outcome of the 2016 referendum—it will not be possible for the UK Government to force our rules and expectations upon EU mobile phone operating companies. So if those companies choose to charge British mobile network operating companies at a wholesale level, one of two things will happen: either that cost will be passed on to those who are using their mobile phone abroad, or it will be spread across all mobile phone users on that network. That is the choice.

The decision we have made is to ensure that consumers are given the best possible protection in the event of leaving the EU with no deal. I have made it quite clear that that is not the Government’s intention, however. We worked very hard to get a deal, and we would be grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s help on that, but it is important to recognise what we can do and what we are doing. We are making sure that those elements of the current EU regime that can be transferred into domestic law are transferred into domestic law. Making sure that consumers cannot spend more than the amount that is currently provided for in EU law without understanding that they are doing so is an important consumer protection, as is letting people know how much of their data they have already used. That is what we can do, and that is what we should do in the event of no deal.

If the hon. Gentleman is concerned, as I am sure that we all are, to avoid some of the unpleasant consequences of no deal, the good news is that he can help. He and his colleagues can vote for a deal. We are still waiting for the Opposition to take a responsible position on avoiding the no-deal consequences that they come to the House to complain about.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Is not a competitive market the best answer?

[Jeremy Wright]

Of course, we have a competitive market, but that is perfectly compatible with providing consumer protections. Where there are sensible consumer protections in place under EU law and we can transfer them into domestic law, that is what we should do. In this case, that is what we are doing.