Oral Answers to Questions

Clive Betts Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Grant Shapps]

I am pleased to confirm that the energy price guarantee has been extended to April 2024, so that support will continue. As I mentioned earlier, we are seeing some of the prices moderate, but the problem is that that combination of higher prices could still continue to lead through, which is why we will keep the energy price guarantee in place.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

May I ask the Secretary of State about two groups who have not had much support so far? One group is households on a communal heating scheme who get their heating bills from their landlord. The Government have announced measures to rectify that situation, but could registered housing providers such as housing associations and local authorities be allowed to apply jointly for their tenants, to ease them into the scheme? Secondly, people on housing benefit do not get the additional help for being on a low income that those on universal credit receive, because housing benefit is not a Department for Work and Pensions benefit. Why is there discrimination against housing benefit recipients? It really is unfair, is it not?

Energy Security

Clive Betts Excerpts

Tuesday 29th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Grant Shapps]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about rooftop solar; I have had it on my own house for the past 11 years, and once it is there, it just carries on producing power. We need to expand that, both domestically and on factory roofs. I will be looking at things like permitted development rights, which enable those panels to go up on top of roofs. There are currently limits to the size of the panels that can be put in place, and I think they are a fruitful source of additional power.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

I welcome the Secretary of State to his place. According to what he has said, Sheffield must be getting some things right: we have been doing energy from waste for over 30 years, since I was council leader, and ITM Power, the leading green hydrogen company, is in my constituency.

Regarding nuclear, is it not important that we ensure a UK supply chain, which has not always happened? Rolls-Royce and SMRs are therefore really important, working with Sheffield Forgemasters, but Madhvani International is also prepared to put billions of pounds of development capital into developing Hitachi-based SMRs—which are already regulated in North America—working with Forgemasters and other Sheffield companies. I am pleased that the Secretary of State will meet me tomorrow to discuss the proposal in more detail, but in principle, I hope that he welcomes it.

[Grant Shapps]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s foresightedness in all the schemes that he mentioned. It is a shame that the last Government to invest in nuclear power was Margaret Thatcher’s Government, all the way back in the 1980s; yesterday brought that long drought to an end. As the energy Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness, has reminded me, we have already provided £210 million to Rolls-Royce for the small modular reactor programme. I wish both Sheffield and the rest of the country well in attracting some of this new technology, and the supply chain that goes with it, to their constituencies.

Ban on Fracking for Shale Gas Bill

Clive Betts Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Edward Miliband]

The hon. Gentleman puts it incredibly well. That is why what the Government are coming up with is such a nonsense idea.

The Government are breaking not just a manifesto promise—no doubt they will say that the manifesto was drawn up before the Russian invasion of Ukraine—but a promise made by Ministers in April this year. The Business Secretary’s response is not to abide by the promise but to try to shift the goalposts. In his immortal words, which I hope MPs will take back to their constituents,

“tolerating a higher degree of risk and disturbance appears to us to be in the national interest”—[Official Report, 22 September 2022; Vol. 719, c. 40WS.]

I think that could be a description of the Government. This is a matter of trust. How can communities across this country trust a Government who say one thing categorically in their manifesto, repeat it in April, and then go back on their word with no mandate from the British people?

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend talked about the Government imposing the ban because of the risk of disturbance to local communities. There was a proposal to frack in Marsh Lane, which happens to be in a neighbouring constituency—that of the Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley), who I think has responsibility for planning and will perhaps deal with fracking. There would be dozens, if not hundreds of lorry movements a day down rural lanes—that is what “disturbance” means—and lots of wells drilled that would despoil the local environment. That is the reality of fracking, which every Conservative Member should think about if they are prepared to accept fracking in their local areas.

[Edward Miliband]

My hon. Friend puts it incredibly well and I agree.

Energy Prices: Support for Business

Clive Betts Excerpts

Thursday 22nd September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I would be extremely keen to see that happen. I would add that Ynys Môn has a very high-energy dynamo as a Member of Parliament.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

I want to follow up on the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) about the position of local authorities. Come December, the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities will make a spending announcement for local authorities for next year. Does the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy agree that his review of energy costs should be incorporated into that, so that local authorities get one presentation of what the future will look like rather than myriad different ones not joined up together?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Gentleman is rather looking a gift horse in the mouth. This is providing a very significant reduction in energy prices for the next six months and a review will take place to see what happens next. Local authorities would be in a very difficult financial situation if this were not being done. The Government cannot responsibly commit to unending expenditure; it has to be done in a sensible and prudent fashion.

Shale Gas Extraction

Clive Betts Excerpts

Thursday 22nd September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has admitted the environmental impact of fracking—the drilling platforms, the wells and the lorry movements—which are significant and substantial. The planning system is best placed to deal with those, so in 2018 the Select Committee on Housing, Communities and Local Government produced our “Planning guidance on fracking” report. We concluded that fracking decisions were best made by elected local planning authorities. We do not know what the Government’s view is, as four years after that report we still have not had a response from Ministers to our recommendations. Will he assure us that by the end of October, when we come back, the Government will have responded, four years late, to that report?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House is present, and I think that was very much a business question. I would say that I will make sure it is passed on to her, but I hope that she will feel that it has been passed on in any case.

Fairness at Work and Power in Communities

Clive Betts Excerpts

Thursday 12th May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Paul Scully]

I think I missed the first part of the hon. Lady’s intervention, but I will happily meet her, or one of my colleagues will. The Minister responsible for corporate governance matters is in the House of Lords, but I will ensure that whatever meeting takes place is the most appropriate one for the hon. Lady. We do want to secure the confidence in our corporate governance to which she has rightly referred.

The Queen’s Speech contains a packed and ambitious legislative programme, including a comprehensive set of Bills which will enable us to deliver on priorities such as growing the economy, which will in turn help to address rising living costs and get people into good jobs. We remain committed to introducing legislation to deliver on these manifesto commitments as soon as parliamentary time allows. Today the Prime Minister has asked my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman) to conduct a review on the future of work. The review will build on existing Government commitments, mentioned by Members today, to identify and assess the key questions to address on that subject are as we seek to grow the economy after the pandemic.

Let me take this opportunity to remind Members that we have produced a raft of secondary legislation in recent years. We brought into force a world first in introducing a legal right to two weeks’ paid bereavement leave for parents who suffer the devastating loss of a child, irrespective of how long they have worked for their employer. Furthermore, at every stage of the pandemic our priority has been to protect jobs and livelihoods, and to provide a fair deal for the hard-working individuals of the United Kingdom. We continued to take action, swiftly and decisively, when it was needed during the pandemic.

I have spoken today about how reforms in the Queen’s Speech, and additional Government actions, will continue to improve our business environment and increase the opportunities for those hard-working people of the UK to find jobs that suit them and their personal circumstances and treat them fairly. Let me also make it clear that those opportunities will be spread across the country, driving local growth and regeneration. We are giving powers back to local leaders by devolving powers to Mayors and local government. We are giving local communities more tools to bring about regeneration, including a planning system that places beauty, infrastructure, democracy, the environment and neighbourhoods at its heart. The Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill will enshrine in law the Government’s commitment to the 12 levelling-up missions giving power and opportunity back to those communities, and we are pressing ahead with our plans for the implementation of the White Paper “Levelling Up the United Kingdom”.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The Minister has talked about more powers, and it is clear that more areas will be given powers similar to those currently held by, for instance, the existing combined authorities. Can he specify what those powers will be, for the benefit of those mayoral combined authorities? Will he set them out very simply, so that we all know what additional powers the Mayors will have?

[Paul Scully]

I am sure that the answer to that question will develop as the debate proceeds. I am not going to go through all the various powers now. Suffice it to say that what we will all see is devolution that matches the expectations of people and communities, so that we can create opportunities for good governance and ensure that local leaders shape their areas and their economies. Ultimately, levelling up is about levelling up people and levelling up lives. That will inevitably be reflected in infrastructure and transport, but it will also be reflected in governance which ensures that those who know those people best and can work with them most effectively can respond at a local, bespoke level.

We are also introducing legislation to give social tenants a more powerful voice with their landlords, and we are legislating to improve the quality of housing for private renters and making renting fairer for tenants.

This is a Queen’s Speech which will ensure that we can continue to build back a better Britain after the pandemic, boosting our growth and our recovery so that every part of our country can thrive.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

I obviously want to contribute on the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill, which was mentioned in the Queen’s Speech and has now been introduced, and the measures on social housing, which the Select Committee have been dealing with in recent months. First, however, as a constituency MP, I ask: where are the measures in the Queen’s Speech to address the cost of living crisis that is affecting all our constituents?

When we talk about levelling up, we should recognise that those in the greatest poverty, who were struggling before energy bills rose, are struggling even more now. Frankly, they look at the eye-watering profits that have been announced in recent days by BP and Shell and wonder why we are not taxing those super-profits to help to cushion the effect of rising prices on their bills and households. The Government have not given an adequate answer to that.

To return to levelling-up issues, I have two major concerns. First, where is the money? That has been a challenge right the way through. If the Government are about levelling up, they are about levelling up Government spending across the piece. Pots of money—levelling up pots, high street pots and town pots—will not make any real difference by themselves, particularly in the context of the massive cuts to local government funding that the poorest areas that need levelling up have seen in the last 10 years.

The Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities sort of got that message; the Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, the hon. Member for Harborough (Neil O’Brien), got it when he came to the Select Committee; and Andy Haldane got it even more—he basically said that we should not have those individual pots of money. We need proper resources and proper budgets to be given to our Mayors, combined authorities and local authorities to spend according to the needs of their area.

I ask the Minister for Levelling Up Communities, the hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Kemi Badenoch), what levelling up really means in financial terms. Does it mean that the Chancellor has an extra sum of money to announce which will be spent in our poorer areas to bring them up to the level of the richer parts of the country?

One particular example is the buses in South Yorkshire. I see my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) in his place, who, until recently, was the Mayor of South Yorkshire, previously the Sheffield city region. I thank him for the excellent work he has done on behalf of the region, and my constituents in particular, over the last four years. He knows that the amount of money spent on bus services in London is about 10 times per head more than it is in South Yorkshire. We have the powers to run our bus service in the same way, but not the money.

I say to the Minister that this is about either an extra sum of money that the Chancellor will have to find or rediverting money from the richer areas to the poorer parts of the country. It has to be one or the other. How can we level up and get equality of funding unless we either find additional funding to bring the poorer areas up or transfer money from the richer areas to the poorer areas? It has to be one or the other. What are the Government going to do? Currently, they are really doing neither.

Secondly, I ask: where are the powers? Earlier, I asked the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), what additional powers are in the Bill to level up and give more authority to combined authorities, Mayors and individual local authorities. He could not answer the question because actually there is no answer. I cannot claim to have read every single one of the 196 clauses in the Bill and the 17 schedules to it, but I cannot find any mention of extra powers. I have found mention of other areas that currently do not have combined authorities, particularly county areas, getting them in the future, which is welcome, but I cannot actually find any additional powers.

The Select Committee has been much more radical. We have said that we should look at this the other way around: should not all decisions be made at local level unless there is a good reason for making them at national level? When the Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, the hon. Member for Harborough, came to the Select Committee, he said that that was a bit radical. Well, it is, but I actually think we need a radical solution to deal with the fact that we are one of the most overcentralised countries in western Europe. That is the reality. There really is not any fundamental change here to alter that, and I am sure we will come back to and press that as a Select Committee.

There was going to be a major planning reform a few months ago, was there not? The previous Secretary of State announced it: the Government were going to tear up the planning rules and start again. It has now come down to a few clauses in the Bill. I am not dismissing that, because I think there are actually some quite good proposals in there. [Interruption.] Well, they are quite good because I think the Government have come round to the view the Select Committee took, which is why they are probably quite helpful. First, we have got rid of the three zones. It was never going to be possible to rewrite every local plan in 30 months, and we have got away from that situation.

We have, I think, moved to a situation where we are going to have simpler processes for local plans, and I think that is welcome, although we have to look at the detail of how they will be worked through. They will be digitised, and that is helpful. In clauses 50 and 60, I think, we have got to a point where, in individual planning applications, the local plan is going to be given greater weight, and I think that is helpful as well. There will be a degree of certainty for communities and for developers—both are important.

We have to get more of the public engaged in the local plan process so that it actually means something, because currently people tend to get engaged once a planning application comes in for a site near them. We have to change that, and get the community to look at where houses should be built and where other developments should take place in the area as a whole through the local plan. That does mean helping authorities, which are being stripped of resources in their planning departments, to undertake more work in getting all local plans up to date and in place in the next couple of years. I am generally not in favour of ringfenced grants, but I think there is a case for having a one-off grant to planning authorities to enable them to do a real job of getting local plans up to date and getting their community engaged in them to take some of the heat and some of the contention out of the planning process.

There are a couple of issues of slight disappointment. One, which the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) mentioned, is the issue of build out. Why are the Government not taking measures in this Bill against those who get planning permissions—there are hundreds of thousands of them around the country—and then do not build the houses they have permission for? Why are we not penalising them for that? Ministers have argued the case for that in the past, but there is nothing in the Bill to do it. Why not? We had the Letwin report, which recommended something like this, years ago, and it still has not been done.

When we began talking about planning reforms with the previous Secretary of State, the whole idea was to build more homes. It was said that the planning system was holding everything up. I think build out is a key issue there that the Government have not addressed, but where has the target for 300,000 homes a year by the end of this Parliament gone? That was the Government’s target. Would the Minister for Levelling Up Communities like to say whether it is still the Government’s target to build 300,000 homes a year by the end of this Parliament? That seems to have fallen off the agenda, and that is really disappointing because we do have a housing crisis in this country.

To again be complimentary to the Government, I think they have listened when it comes to the whole problem of compulsory purchase. Local authorities have been complaining about the very difficult process they have to go through, and if we are going to see real regeneration and redevelopment of our city centres, as the demand for retail floorspace drops, we are going to need easier compulsory purchase powers. I think they are in the Bill. I do not know all the details, but at least the Government seem to have listened and to have taken that seriously, which is to be welcomed.

On social housing, I welcome the improvements to regulation that are going to come. We have not seen all the clauses, and the Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, the hon. Member for Walsall North (Eddie Hughes), is coming to the Select Committee on Monday to talk further about that. The Select Committee has seen and heard of some appalling examples of the really awful conditions that some social housing tenants are living in. The housing ombudsman has done some excellent work on mould and dampness in homes, and every local authority should be taking that into account.

I would say that, yes, in the past—and the Grenfell inquiry has highlighted this—there has been an attitude that social housing tenants are somehow second-class tenants in second-class housing, and we have to do everything we can to improve the standard of housing. There was also the idea that people did not really want to be social housing tenants, did they, so we would not build any more council houses and housing association properties. I am pleased that the Secretary of State said the other day that he wanted to see more social housing built, but again, where is the money? Where is the money? The Government are going to have to put in more grant to get the social housing built. If we are going to build the 300,000 homes we have talked about, at least 90,000 of those—probably more—are going to have to be social housing, and we are nowhere near that. I just say in passing that I hope the changes to the infrastructure levy in the Bill do not mean a reduction in the number of social houses built by developers, with the ending of section 106 agreements. That is another challenge.

Finally, on private renting, I welcome the Government’s commitment. Okay, we can be disappointed that we have not actually got a commitment to produce legislation, and I would have hoped for at least a draft Bill, but this issue is complicated and we must get it right. In particular, we must get right that landlords cannot use rent increases as a way of forcing out tenants when they do not have section 21 powers to rely on. One thing the Select Committee has pressed for, which the Government have not committed to, is the idea of a housing court. A housing court would simplify procedure to help both the good landlords and the good tenants—the good tenants being harassed by bad landlords, and the good landlords whose bad tenants will not pay the rent—to have a simplified way to get redress. I hope the Government might look at that again.

Overall, there are real problems with the cost of living that simply are not dealt with by the Government. On levelling up and regeneration, I would just ask: where are the powers and where is the money? Yes, there are some good details that we want to work through with the Government—on planning, compulsory purchase orders and social housing regulation—but there are still many challenges not addressed in the Queen’s Speech that we will need to come back to.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Levelling Up Communities (Kemi Badenoch)]

It is my pleasure to close today’s debate on behalf of the Government and the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. I begin by thanking hon. Members on all sides of the House who have contributed to today’s long and lively debate, following Her Majesty’s Gracious Speech earlier this week. Before I say more on how we are delivering on our pledge to strengthen communities, rebalance our economy and level up parts of the country, I first want to address as many as possible of the points raised by hon. Members during the debate.

I will start with the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), who asked: where is the money? I do not think he is in his place, but I would like to thank him for his substantive engagement with the issues—he engaged far more than anyone else on the Opposition Benches. I am pleased that he found some things to praise in the set of Bills that we are bringing forward, unlike his colleagues, although I saw he was claiming credit for the policies that he agreed with; I am not quite sure whether that is right.

The hon. Gentleman asked where the money is, and the point I want to make—I know quite a few people will be making this point throughout the debate on the Queen’s Speech—is that levelling up means more than money. We have been providing funding, but it needs more than that; clearly, funding alone has not eliminated regional inequalities, so other types of action are required. I agreed with the point of the anecdote of the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) about west and east Germany and the trillions of pounds spent. It is not about just pouring money into areas; that alone will not deliver levelling up.

I disagree with the point made by the hon. Member for Sheffield South East that levelling up means taking from wealthy areas and giving to others; it is not a zero-sum game. I also found his idea of devolving every single decision down to the most local level interesting, but if we did take up that radical idea, as he described it, he would then complain about postcode lotteries. To answer his question on the new powers that combined authorities will have, the final package of powers will be bespoke, and will depend on the needs of and proposals from local areas. Mayors could therefore have increased powers over budgets, employment and skills, transport, health and social care, and policing, but the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill streamlines the process for a combined authority that proposes taking additional powers. The Bill will make devolving more powers to Mayors easier as long as they agree to take on greater responsibility. There will be a flexible choice, which is why the detail the hon. Gentleman was looking for will not be there; the detail will depend on the proposals from Mayors.

Many Members raised good points. My right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) asked questions about inflationary shock, global commodity prices and monetary inflation that I am unable to answer; I am sure Treasury Ministers will. He also made a good point about the conflicting aims in trying to deliver housing; I hope he will take part in debates on those issues during Second Reading of the legislation.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) talked about the need to have effective monitoring of levelling up, and that will be found in the Bill. We have embedded that mission in it, recognising there is a need to help everyone everywhere because there are pockets of deprivation all over the country, not just in certain regions. I look forward to hearing her further contributions on that.

The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) talked about the Secretary of State saying that we did not have a housing target any longer. That is not true; that is a straw man. He did not say that; he simply said that the housing target is not the only way we are measuring success. We are also looking at issues such as beauty, infrastructure, the environment and neighbourhoods. That does not mean we no longer have a housing target.

The hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) complained that the Secretary of State was not here to—

[Mr Betts]

Will the Minister give way?

[Kemi Badenoch]

Yes, of course.

[Mr Betts]

I apologise for returning a little late; I have been speaking at a housing conference and had to rush back. On this question of a target, the Government have a target, as the Minister has just said. Can she confirm that it is to build 300,000 homes a year before the end of this Parliament?

[Kemi Badenoch]

I confirm that we have not changed anything about our targets, but we are looking—[Interruption.] I am agreeing with the hon. Gentleman. We are looking at other things beyond targets, not just a statistic or number.

My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope) raised the issue of vaccines and vaccine damage payments. Again, I am unable to give an answer on that at the Dispatch Box, but the vaccines Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Maggie Throup), will have heard his comments, and I hope he will receive a response shortly. He made wider points about the economy that I think will be addressed in the debates around energy next week.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) made many points that I agreed with, including on employment, and I want to acknowledge what he said about the risk takers being the employers; we often forget that when talking about employment.

The hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald) complained about the legislation in this Session and the last. The legislation we are bringing forward was in our manifesto. These measures were manifesto commitments, and we won an election on those commitments, so he should ask himself why he is at odds with the wishes of the electorate.

The hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) made a passionate speech, as usual; but as usual, I disagreed with most of it. The hon. Member for Battersea (Marsha De Cordova) talked about ethnicity pay gap reporting. She and I have discussed this many times. A review of the success of gender pay gap reporting is coming, and it will be interesting for us to have a conversation on that.

Community Energy Schemes

Clive Betts Excerpts

Tuesday 30th November 2021 Westminster Hall

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

Before we begin the debate, I remind Members that, in line with the guidance from the House of Commons Commission and the Government, they should wear face coverings except when they are speaking. I also remind Members to take a lateral flow test twice a week, which can be done in the House or at home, and to give other Members and staff room and space when seated as well as when entering or leaving the room.

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of empowering community energy schemes.

It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Betts. I start by thanking Steve Shaw and Power for People, who have worked tirelessly on the campaign to unblock community energy. I also thank the hon. Member for Wantage (David Johnston), who is promoting the Local Electricity Bill in this Session. I am pleased to see the hon. Members for Waveney (Peter Aldous) and for Ceredigion (Ben Lake), with whom I have worked closely on the campaign, in the Chamber. They are enthusiastic champions for community energy in the House, and I look forward to their contributions.

Imagine a future where people can purchase clean electricity directly from a local supply company or co-operative and where every pound spent on powering our homes or cars is recycled back into the local community, supporting jobs, funding new facilities and services and contributing to renewable energy infrastructure. That is what community energy is about: ensuring that people everywhere support and benefit from the clean energy transition.

Solving the climate crisis and meeting our net zero ambitions will require huge changes that will be seen and felt directly by people everywhere. We need a radical shift in industrial systems, technology and business models, which must be underpinned by strong and decisive Government action and the right policies. However, one of the most crucial requirements is bringing people on board for the transition to net zero, because they have to pay for the transition through their energy bills and taxes, they have to host new infrastructure in their neighbourhoods and on their landscapes, and they need to alter their routines and behaviours.

Unless we bring people on board for the transition to net zero, there is a huge risk that the public will not welcome or even accept the necessary changes. The consequences of that will be that our progress to net zero will be much more lengthy, costly and contested, and it will be less inclusive, equitable and environmentally sustainable. The real strength of community energy is its connection to people and places. It is people who make community energy what it is, and it is people who will see the benefits. That is what we are trying to achieve with the Local Electricity Bill.

Community energy is one of the few tried and tested means of engaging people in energy systems. The Bill would lead to energy market reforms that would empower community-owned and run schemes to sell local renewable energy directly to households and businesses. It would make new community energy businesses viable and, by bypassing large utilities, those businesses would keep significant additional value within local economies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

Four hon. Members have submitted a request to speak. We have until 3.30 pm, which is when the Front-Bench spokespersons will start.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hilary Benn]

The hon. Gentleman raises a really interesting example, because the future will require a huge increase in renewable electricity generation, whether for heat pumps for homes, for cars or for other things. Electric vehicles are an interesting example of thinking about energy in a different way. For example, if the car arrives home and is parked up at 7 o’clock in the evening, and that is when people go indoors to put on the kettle and the TV, we could say, given that there will be loads of car batteries being used, “Between 7 and 11, part of our generating capacity will be the batteries in all those cars. We will draw them into the system, and then when we have gone to bed, hopefully at a reasonable hour, the battery can be charged up to take us to wherever we want to go the following morning.” That is such a good example of how we can think differently about energy generation and distribution, and it is a powerful argument for the Bill, which so many hon. Members are here to support.

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

We move on to the Front Benchers, who have at least 10 minutes. They can have a bit longer if they want, as long as they leave a couple of minutes at the end for the mover of the motion to respond.

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[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Greg Hands)]

Let me begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) on securing this important debate, and for pre-submitting the three questions that I will answer during the course of my speech. I will, however, return to them at the end to make doubly sure that I have answered them to her satisfaction. I realise that this is the first debate on the topic since I took on my new role in September; I think the previous one was on 1 July. I welcome the debate, and it is fantastic to see so much enthusiasm for community energy from all parties, nations and regions of the UK—it is very heartening to see.

I will start by reassuring the House that the Government recognise the role community and locally owned renewable energy schemes can and do play in supporting the UK’s national net zero targets. Since the last debate we published, on 19 October the net zero strategy, which has already been referred to and sets out our road map of how we will get to net zero by 2050 and the staging posts in between. We understand that the value of community energy is not just in delivering energy projects that stimulate clean growth. Projects such as the community energy cafés run in south-east London support the most vulnerable in society by providing impartial domestic energy advice. Community groups can also act as the catalyst for raising awareness of both the energy system and wider environmental issues. They can be a catalyst in the promotion of behaviour change, which we all know is vital to reaching net zero.

I know Members will agree with me that there is already some excellent work under way in the community energy sector. We have heard many examples today, but I will add one: Swaffham Prior is an off-grid gas village of around 300 homes in east Cambridgeshire that is being supported by its community land trust to bring renewable energy to the village through installing a heat network. This will make it one of the first villages in the UK to do so.

I mentioned the net zero strategy, but we have also heard about a lot of different fantastic schemes from across the United Kingdom. As a Government, we fund the rural community energy fund. Delivered through local net zero hubs, this £10 million scheme supports rural communities in England to develop renewable energy projects that provide economic and social benefits to the community. Since its launch in 2019, the fund has received 1,668 enquiries, 203 applications and awarded millions of pounds worth of grants to projects focusing on a variety of technologies, including solar, wind, low-carbon heating and electric vehicle charging. It includes funding for the constituency of the hon. Member for Bath. She referred earlier to Bath and West Community Energy, which has received more than £92,000 from the rural community energy fund for feasibility grants to develop three community solar projects.

Ofgem also supports community energy projects and, following a consultation process, has announced that from February 2022 it plans to welcome applications from community-interest groups, co-operative societies and community-benefit societies to the industry voluntary redress scheme. That will allow groups to apply for funds to deliver energy-related projects that support energy consumers in vulnerable situations, support decarbonisation and will benefit people in England, Scotland and Wales.

More widely, through the introduction of UK-wide growth funding schemes, such as the community renewal fund, levelling-up fund and the towns fund—all very important new funds—the Government are enabling local areas to tackle net zero goals in ways that best suit their needs. I am aware that those schemes may be used to support the development of community energy schemes, which I highlight for all right hon. and hon. Members. For example, the towns fund has awarded more than £23.6 million to Glastonbury town, including to the Glastonbury clean energy project, which aims to generate renewable energy for use by many of the other projects in the plan, as well as other local businesses and residents.

To take forward the vital work on community energy, we committed in the net zero strategy to reintroduce the community energy contact group. That group will provide a single, dedicated forum for community energy groups to engage and co-operate with Government on key policy issues. That could obviously include discussion of the recommendations already referred to, made by the Environmental Audit Committee’s inquiry into community energy. I hope that group will strengthen outcomes for both the sector and the Government.

Turning to the Local Electricity Bill, which has been mentioned frequently in the debate, a right to local supply would allow electricity generators to sell their power directly to local consumers. As we know, the Local Electricity Bill seeks to establish that right by enabling electricity generators to become local suppliers, and to ensure that the costs and complexity of becoming a local energy supplier are proportionate.

Although the Government agree with the broad intentions of the Bill, we do not support the Bill as the means to enable local energy supply. However, I make a commitment today. I am about to write to my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (David Johnston) to set up a meeting with him. I will leave it up to him which other Members he wishes to pull into that meeting to discuss the Bill and how we can work together, particularly on some of the obstacles to it.

I will take interventions shortly, but I want to lay out some of those obstacles. There is existing flexibility in how Ofgem regulates energy supply to allow for local suppliers. Ofgem has powers to award supply licences—a point raised by the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn)—that are restricted to specified geographies and/or specified types of premises. However, many hon. Members have observed that, although the right to local supply exists, the costs of becoming a supplier act as a barrier to entering the market.

Making more substantial changes to the licensing framework to suit specific business models may create wider distortions elsewhere in the energy system. Artificially reducing network costs for local energy suppliers, as the Bill appears to imply, is likely to be distortive. It would mean higher costs falling on other consumers, which would increase as more local suppliers enter the market. It is important, therefore, that we take a broad view. I notice there is a Division in the main Chamber, Mr Betts.

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

Order. I was letting you finish your sentence—we can now suspend the sitting for 15 minutes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

The Minister will now resume his speech. We have 11 minutes to go; we will finish at 4.28 pm. I should just say that Alan Brown has courteously given me his apologies, because he is in the main Chamber for the next debate.

[Greg Hands]

Thank you, Mr Betts; let me carry on. It is important that we take a broad view of all consumers when making changes to the energy markets. That includes consumer protection measures, which form an important part of the supply licence. Suppliers play a key role in providing support to customers, particularly the vulnerable. For example, the energy company obligation requires suppliers to install energy efficiency measures in the homes of vulnerable people. The warm home discount applies a reduction to the bills of vulnerable households, and the price cap protects households from poor-value tariffs. The priority services register is used by suppliers to identify consumers who may need additional support with their energy supply. Of course, suppliers sometimes fail, but we have vital safety nets to ensure supply—as we have seen since the last debate—through the supplier of last resort, or SoLR, process. I would be concerned about the deliverability of such protections under a local electricity supply regime.

Let me turn to the three questions that the hon. Member for Bath asked specifically. I think that I have answered the question on future energy legislation. I have outlined, I think, some of the difficulties with the current Bill as proposed. Also, I think that I have gone into the distortions to the energy system just now and before in some detail. And will I meet her? As I have mentioned, I have an existing commitment to my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage, but I am happy for people to come together. That was the commitment that I made to him—to meet Members with an interest in this area.

[Greg Hands]

I appreciate the hon. Lady’s line of questioning. I replied specifically to a letter from my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage seeking a meeting. I think the best thing to do would be for me to speak to my hon. Friend or for her to approach him—it would effectively be his meeting—to find the best way forward. I am keen to be as accommodating as possible to Members across the Chamber, but I responded to the letter that my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage sent me, which I think was on behalf of a group of Members. [Interruption.] In that case, I think the best thing to do would be for the hon. Member for Bath to approach, first, my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage.

On the question of the cost to consumers, though costs are reduced for the few in the scheme, that avoids market costs, which fall on those not in the local scheme. That often includes the fuel-poor, who cannot buy into such schemes.

Germany was mentioned many times. Without going off and setting up my own separate Adjournment debate, there are reasons why Germany works well, and less well, in this space. Germany’s grid, for example, makes it very difficult to get renewable energy from the North sea down to Bavaria. Its grid is not set up in the same way that ours is, on a national basis. That can have advantages and disadvantages. I also point out Germany’s reliance on imported gas from abroad. That again stresses some of the difficulties in scaling up; even in Germany, which has been praised for community energy, it does not necessarily offer a scalable solution in that same way.

The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) asked about the continuing expansion of the rural community energy fund. I will look at the options for funding as part of Department-wide planning.

My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) asked five questions; I will try to deal with them as quickly as possible. First, derogation is possible; Ofgem consulted previously on widening the use and geographic premises licences are possible. Secondly, the right to supply is possible; BEIS will work with Ofgem on retail market reform. Thirdly, this is really a matter for Ofgem, which can do a local supply licence, but we can set out why we do not agree with a local supply licence. Fourthly, we are looking at the supply hub model as part of the retail market reform. It is a complex issue, which, of course, has implications for things such as the smart meter roll-out, and so on. Fifthly, I think we have already covered the smart export guarantee scheme.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) asked about Northern Ireland. As he and I well know, it is a unique energy market. I am having a meeting with Gordon Lyons, the Northern Ireland Economy Minister, on wider issues tomorrow, and I will try to feed this into a conversation with him. The meeting is with the three devolved Administrations, but I will find an appropriate time to ask him about how we can work together on community energy schemes.

Mr Betts, I think you said we were finishing at four—

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

Twenty-eight minutes past.

[Greg Hands]

Fantastic. I will leave some time for the hon. Member for Bath to reply.

Finally, earlier this year, we jointly published with Ofgem our new smart systems and flexibility plan and the UK’s first energy digitisation strategy, which was also developed with Innovate UK. Many of the actions set out in those documents aim to improve locational signals and help to enable smart local energy solutions, such as facilitating further growth of local flexibility markets.

In addition, Ofgem’s access and forward-looking charging review seeks to deliver more efficient choices about where users locate on the networks, and how they use the networks on an ongoing basis. The introduction of better price signals is important in ensuring that local generation is rewarded for the benefits it can bring to the system. It is recognised that, in some parts of the country, the costs of connecting to the grid can itself act as a barrier. Ofgem has therefore proposed to reduce connection costs for generation connections, such as community energy, by socialising more of the network reinforcement element of connection charges. Any changes are expected to come into effect from April 2023.

Many Members have argued in favour of local energy suppliers as an option to mitigate global gas price impacts, which I have already referred to, but risks would continue to exist. For example, local energy suppliers are likely still to need to be connected to the grid during periods of low generation. The failure of a local energy supplier without a grid connection would also leave customers without energy supply in the absence of an effective safety net.

The Government continue to support the development of new business models to supply energy consumers and help achieve our net-zero ambitions. In response to the unprecedented rise in energy prices this year, we are working closely with Ofgem to consider broader reforms to the overall energy retail market regulatory framework. We want a market that will support the longer-term transition to net zero, recognising the need for continued competition and innovation while also ensuring that suppliers have sustainable and resilient business models. That includes Ofgem exploring a move towards a more prudential regulatory regime, recognising that energy suppliers are managing complex financial risks and ensuring that the energy sector is resilient against a wide range of future scenarios, including prices rising further or falling sharply.

This debate is testament to the fact that there is clearly extensive cross-party support for the community energy sector, which we very much welcome. Just as importantly, there is a wealth of innovative schemes—

Offshore Renewables Wind Sector

Clive Betts Excerpts

Tuesday 30th November 2021 Westminster Hall

[Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Alba)]

rose—

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

I had not been informed that the hon. Member wished to speak. Has the hon. Member informed the mover and the Minister?

[Kenny MacAskill]

My apologies, Mr Betts; I am aware.

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Greg Hands)]

I think, Mr Betts, that as they have given us quite a bit of time, I am happy to let the Member speak.

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

The rules of the House are that if a Member wishes to speak in a 30-minute debate, they should inform both the mover and the Minister in advance and then I should be notified. Nevertheless, it is all sorted out now.

[Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Alba)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. I would like to thank and congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill) on securing this important debate. On St Andrew’s day, it serves as a poignant opportunity to consider how right can prevail over might. Might and power can be used to silence and incarcerate, such as in the case of Craig Murray in Scotland, who tastes freedom once again this St Andrew’s day.

However, power and control can also be utilised to either stymie or enable the potential of a people and of a nation. My Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath constituency has a proud history of industry and endeavour, from the world-renowned Adam Smith to the linoleum factories of Nairn, and the Francis, Seafield, Kelty, Benarty and Cowdenbeath pits, to name just a few. Our folk do not fear work; indeed, they relish it.

In my youth, our folk worked doon the pits, on the ships, in the shipyards and on the docks of Methil, Burntisland and Rosyth, building rigs, servicing the naval fleet and working offshore. It was great industry, but this was crumbs from the table. From the Thatcher and Major Governments who put profit and privatisation before people at every turn, who put tax cuts for the wealthy before the financial security of a people, to the Blairite disaster capitalist adventure of illegal war-making in the middle east, and moving the Scottish maritime boundary, making 6,000 square miles of Scotland’s waters English.

I often hear Members from the Government Benches, and indeed Government Ministers, crow about our how our campaign for Scottish independence is a grievance. Well, they are right, and it is a fully justified grievance. All the evidence needed exists in the UK Government’s own archive, in the shape of the McCrone report that Scottish economist Gavin McCrone presented to the Heath Government in 1975, which revealed how North sea oil would make an independent Scotland as prosperous as Switzerland.

The facts show that Scotland has been robbed of the embarrassment of riches that North sea oil and gas could have provided to her people. We just have to look to Norway to see that reality. Why should the Scottish people believe a single word that any Westminster Government utter when history provides every bit of evidence necessary to demonstrate how easily false promises and vows can be discarded and broken?

Instead, we have escalating child poverty; a pernicious and vicious welfare state; and threats to the little control we do possess through Trojan horse policies such as the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020. None of this is helped by a supine devolved Government who seem to have given up on even talking a good game. The people of Scotland deserve so much better than this.

Just off the Fife shore, a green industrial revolution is taking place, but all that my constituents can do is observe. It has delivered no meaningful employment to our communities, and the only announcement to date from this Government was more crumbs from the table in the shape of offshore jobs for service engineers. That lack of ambition is sadly reflected back from organisations such as Renewables Scotland, which claims that Scotland has missed the chance to lead the charge on renewables and can only hope for domestic service engineer jobs. This is scandalous. Scotland is being plundered yet again, while our people suffer real harm as a consequence of the acts and omissions of their supposed Governments.

Scotland is replete with natural resources that, with focus and investment, could lay the foundations for national prosperity, as the transition towards a greener, more sustainable future gathers pace. Fife’s skilled workforce, proximity to offshore development sites and established fabrication facilities mean that the kingdom is perfectly placed on the Forth estuary to be at the forefront of the marine and green energy revolution. Harnessing the established and potential assets on all shores of the firth of Forth is key to enabling Scotland to end its dependency on fossil fuels and establishing a thriving, green energy-based economy.

In the context of the climate emergency, there is growing evidence that political, public and corporate priorities are beginning to align. Thus, a compelling case now exists for Scotland to further its ambitions towards a prosperous, zero-carbon economy. For this to be truly realised, any such prosperity must seek to build tangible local results, such as high-quality employment, world-leading research and development, and a national prosperity fund. We must not allow the Scottish people to be denied the benefits of an energy boom by remote or disengaged Governments again.

My constituency has the potential and is bursting with ambition. Brexit has neutralised the excuse of state aid, but there has been no change to contracts for difference and no conditionality on local employment or supply chains. Transmission costs are driving investment away, so there is a need to rapidly consider viable alternatives, such as microgrids, which generate and deliver energy locally, creating jobs and driving community prosperity.

In the green energy revolution, Scotland is again well positioned to benefit and lead the charge. With less than 1% of Europe’s population, Scotland possesses 33% of Europe’s carbon storage potential, 25% of Europe’s offshore wind resources, 25% of Europe’s tidal energy resources and 10% of Europe’s wave energy potential, but yet again it is Westminster that stands in our way.

Scotland’s oil and gas sector has been unbelievably badly managed by successive UK Governments and we cannot allow this opportunity to be squandered by yet more Westminster Governments that see Scotland’s wealth as something to be exploited, rather than stewarded and safeguarded for future generations. Only by taking full control of our future will the renewable sector reach its full potential, so our people can lift their gaze and realise their full potential.

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

Order. The Minister needs a reasonable amount of time to finish and he was unaware that you were going to speak in this debate, Mr Hanvey. Can you conclude now please?

[Neale Hanvey]

I am concluding now and I have fewer than 50 words to say.

I do not expect a particularly constructive or useful response from the Government, but that is okay because any indifference, dismissal or vague commitment serves only to strengthen the argument in favour of independence as a route to prosperity. Scotland’s natural wealth will be one of the key foundations of our future prosperity as an independent nation. There is much work to do but opportunities galore for Scotland, for Fife, and for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

Post Office Closures

Clive Betts Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Westminster Hall

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

I remind all Members of the guidance from the House of Commons Commission and the Government to wear masks and to give other Members appropriate space when entering or leaving the room.

I recognise that the House rightly paid tribute to Sir David Amess, given the tragedy of his killing last week, but we should also remind ourselves that Sir David was a highly respected and long-serving member of the Panel of Chairs. In other circumstances, he might have been in my place today. Without getting formal, we will all want to think our own personal thoughts about the contribution that Sir David made as a Chair and in other ways as a Member of this House, about the incredible loss and grief felt for him, and about his family at this time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Marion Fellows]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention; again, she hits the nail right on the head. I welcome the pilot of the post office banking hubs. However, I am aware that many sub-postmasters are concerned about the impact they will have on existing branches, and I share their concerns. We cannot have branches in competition with and cannibalising each other. The full impact on existing branches must be watched closely.

However, I give full support to the private Member’s Bill in the name of the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker), who unfortunately cannot be here today. It aims to establish in law that major banks will be obligated to provide banking services through local post office branches.

Banks have been let off the hook. They are abandoning town centres, villages and customers. Not only should banks be mandated to provide their services through post offices via the banking framework, they must be made to pay for the outreach and banking services that the post office network provides. At present, many sub-postmasters are subsidising the running of these services. That cannot be allowed to continue. Will the Minister confirm today that the Government will back the Bill from the hon. Member for North Norfolk and, if not, what alternatives will be put in place?

Post offices are just one means of accessing cash, and losing a bank branch can make it much more difficult for people to access cash. The UK Government previously committed to an access to cash Bill, which has not yet been forthcoming. We are hurtling towards a cashless society, which will undoubtedly impact the most vulnerable people. Measured action is needed so that cash can be available free of charge to those who prefer it. Can the Minister confirm whether it is still the Government’s intention to introduce a Bill in the coming parliamentary term?

I understand that some of this is under the auspices of the Treasury, but we cannot keep passing the buck and going backwards and forwards, nor can we have the silo mentality whereby one Government Department is responsible for the money to post offices and the Minister has to say, “Well, it’s not my job, it’s the Treasury.” We need joined-up thinking on this.

The Post Office has massive potential to provide not just banking services, but a range of services. The UK Government have previously committed to making post offices the front office of Government. With over 11,500 branches across these islands, they are perfectly placed to be that, but the UK Government have pulled service after service from the network, most notably the Post Office card account. One million people used a POCA in 2019 and this has fallen since the forced migration of recipients to bank accounts.

However, for many, a bank account is still out of reach. It is also an additional and unnecessary hoop for people to jump through to receive their benefit payments or pensions. It makes no sense that when banks are leaving and post offices remain, a greater emphasis would be put on banking.

Other services, such as biometric enrolment and HMRC payments, have also been removed. Whenever the UK Government remove a service, that means less income for the post office network and its sub-postmasters, which makes closures more likely. The income derived from these services can be small, but proves how important it is to encourage people to use their post office services.

The Minister has heard me speak many times on post offices, as has everyone else in this Chamber. That is because they are an important service that people across the UK recognise, use, value and need. It is vital that the post office network continues in spite of the difficulties that Horizon has forced on to Post Office Ltd. I appreciate that the Government have given money, but I and many others are concerned that the situation will lead in the end to a diminution of post office services. I plead with and urge the Minister to make sure that the post office network continues, grows and thrives, and that those who run post offices on our behalf are suitably recompensed.

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

Six Members have indicated that they would like to speak. In order to start the Front Benchers at no later than half past 10, I would suggest about six minutes for each Back Bencher. I call Andy Slaughter.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jamie Stone]

My final point is simply this: where there is a post office service being conducted in a retail premises that is not a post office—a newsagent or some other business—there is an issue. I can think of an example in my constituency, where privacy tended to be invaded. Someone would be queuing up and talking to the lady about his or her pension or whatever, but the people behind wanted to buy a copy of the Daily Record or whatever. The person at the counter was uncomfortable with the feeling that the person behind could hear what was being said. That is perhaps an issue for another day, but I say to the Minister that we must remember that for some transactions in post offices, or however we do it in the future, there is a confidentiality aspect. I have no doubt that the Seaboard Memorial Hall in my constituency will do an excellent job and will tackle that privacy aspect of the work as well.

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

There are two more Members who wish to speak. As long as we finish by 10.28 am for the wind-ups, we have time for both hon. Members.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. When the Minister sets out his vision for post offices, as I hope he will, he has to retore confidence in the post offices so that they can see a future for themselves financially and viably.

Yesterday morning I had a lady in my office thanking my staff for persevering with her attendance allowance form. She had been notified that her appeal had been upheld. I listened as my staff members reminded her that this additional money was hers, and that she should use it to make her life easier—to get a cleaner or to help pay for a taxi rather than walking everywhere. She said something that struck me and was very important: “I will get a taxi to get my post office money.” It was very clear what she was saying. “I can’t use this card stuff, and they help me to get my cash where I can get all my bills sorted. I don’t know what I will do when they don’t do cash anymore.”

This is replicated dozens of times across my constituency, and I know it is replicated across all of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The availability of the help and support that post office staff provide to vulnerable people in our communities cannot be overstated. That lady also said that her life would be turned upside down if she could not get her pension and her money sorted. She said, “The girl in the post office put some money on my gas and electric, and my TV licence bill. She does it all.” This lady is in close contact with the people in the post office. I am so thankful for all those staff who take the time to do what those in a busy petrol filling station simply cannot; I mean no disrespect to them, but it does underline the importance of post offices.

With more and more bank branches closing down, the role of the post office for vulnerable people and for businesses that cannot lodge cash easily without it is more vital than ever, so I urge the Government to ensure that we play our part in the retention of post office services. We should remember that although a large number of people operate online for the majority of things, there is also a large vulnerable section of society who do not operate online and who are frightened to do so because of security concerns. Again, I seek the Minister’s reassurance in relation to this security issue. I will give him another example, which concerns one of my constituents, because I do not believe that the vulnerability of some elderly people to scams can be underlined enough.

Only last month, a man in my constituency lost a substantial amount of his savings because he was scammed through an online system. Many of our older people and other vulnerable people are increasingly refusing to try any online payments, just because they are not sure whether they have the security that they need so much. My parliamentary aide’s mother had a discussion with her private pension provider regarding the transfer of a bulk payment. Coincidentally, that afternoon she received a message on her phone, apparently from HMRC, regarding an outstanding tax bill. Let us be quite clear—HMRC does not make telephone calls to tell people about tax bills. If someone receives such a call or message, it is a scam, and that is a fact. Indeed, I received a phone call here at Parliament just before the recess, telling me to contact a particular number immediately in relation to something similar. I contacted my accountant and asked him about it, and he said, “Jim, HMRC do not contact you about any HMRC business by phone. They will contact you by letter. If you get a phone call supposedly from them, it’s a scam.” He was quite clear about that.

The mother of my parliamentary aide, Naomi, rang her, and Naomi told her mother to do nothing about the message until she had looked at it. It was a scam, but one timed in such a way as to be believable. Not everyone has a child who understands the tax system so well that they can spot a scam, which perhaps underlines the importance of this issue.

Fears about these issues make people’s ability to head to their local post office and have a local, friendly staff member help them to pay their bills safely and to get things sorted out vital. How important it is to have the accessibility to that service from someone an individual knows and who has a face they recall and trust—trust that has been built up over many years. I believe that every speaker today will endorse that.

The post office is vital. It is okay to have all the other shops and petrol stations where people have access to a post office service, but people also need to have someone they know. Post offices give that reassurance, so they are vital, and we must do our part to protect them. In doing so, we must protect our service provision, which is even more important for our elderly community, who rely on it and cannot do without it.

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

Finally, I call Kirsten Oswald to speak.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

It is very kind of you to call me to speak, Mr Betts. Thank you. I was not down to speak in this debate—

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

Oh, I am sorry.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

I thank the hon. Member. I called her because she was on the list of people who had requested to speak.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am delighted.

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

Always here to help!

--- Later in debate ---

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. I want to echo your tribute to our friend, Sir David Amess, who was tragically and horrifically murdered. As you said, he could well have been in the Chair for today’s debate. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter) said, this is the kind of debate that Sir David would have truly appreciated. I am sure that there would have been a reason why post office closures showed that Southend needed to be a city, and I am so glad that that is to be realised. This is also the sort of debate that he would have appreciated because Members on all sides have conducted it with affability, civility and respect. I want also to pay tribute to the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows), not only for securing the debate but for the great cross-party work that her APPG does to support post offices.

As we have heard, for 361 years the Post Office has been at the heart of the community, and post offices have established themselves as the backbones of local economies across the United Kingdom. My hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith, the hon. Members for Keighley (Robbie Moore), for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone), for Strangford (Jim Shannon), for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald) and the SNP spokesperson, the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden), have spoken of the contribution that post offices make to our constituencies. The network provides over 170 essential services to 17 million customers and one third of small businesses each and every week.

More recently, the pandemic has highlighted how vital a reliable postal service is—I am sure that we all appreciated that during the pandemic. A survey by the National Federation of SubPostmasters found that 97% of post offices that remained open during lockdown did so to support their local communities. Sub-postmasters stepped up as key workers, not only keeping us connected but going above and beyond their job descriptions by offering services such as grocery deliveries for vulnerable customers. I thank them for their work during the pandemic, and also pay tribute to the CWU for its support and campaigning on post offices.

As this debate has shown, postal services matter to everyone, but customers and businesses in the most rural and vulnerable communities are paying the biggest price for closures. A 2015 freedom of information request revealed that, out of the 20 north-east branches marked as temporarily closed, 17 were closed for more than a year and seven for more than five years. To put that in context, the north-east has 499 open branches, already the lowest number in any UK region. Hon. Members have spoken of concerns about closures in their constituencies. In my own constituency of Newcastle upon Tyne Central, we have seen a number of closures, often in deprived areas such as Kenton, where I grew up. Other branches have moved into private sector operations, despite opposition from local MPs and residents. For example, the Gosforth high street post office was moved to a convenience store on a secluded residential street, without nearby bus stops or non-permit parking—a decision made with complete disregard for accessibility. We have heard from hon. Members of similar experiences in their constituencies. In 2019, the former Minister, the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Kelly Tolhurst), stated to the BEIS Committee that it was a Government commitment to maintain the post office network at 11,500 branches. Does the Minister plan to uphold that commitment in our post-pandemic economy?

With only 1% of branches managed directly by the Post Office, many sub-postmasters are relying on the Government’s subsidy to remain financially viable. However, sub-postmasters are resigning at a faster rate than they can be replaced due to the difficulty in making a decent living. That has been a major driving force in the decline of the network. In 2019, the National Federation of SubPostmasters found that 76% of members were struggling to earn the national minimum hourly wage, resulting in an estimated 22% planning to downsize or close their post office in the coming year. What recent discussions has the Minister had with Post Office Ltd on the incomes of sub-postmasters, and what steps he is taking to minimise the risk of further closures?

During the pandemic, reduced footfall and post offices’ inability to access many coronavirus support packages saw many temporary closures become permanent. Between March and April 2020, the number of open branches fell by 651 from 11,638, and 388 of those closures were of outreach services in the most remote parts of the UK. In August, the BBC reported that 260 temporarily closed branches were still closed as of 30 June 2021. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that the number of open branches returns to pre-pandemic levels?

The post office subsidy provides a fixed amount of remuneration to an estimated 5,000 post offices, including 1,600 outreach services operating from mobile vans and village halls on a part-time basis. But the Government have ignored the importance of the subsidy, which has decreased from £210 million in 2012-13 to £50 million in 2020-21. Two years ago, the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood told a Select Committee that the Government would look to continue to support the post office network, sharing this responsibility with Post Office Ltd. Much has changed since this pre-pandemic statement. What assessment has the Minister made of the ongoing impact of covid on post offices, and how does he plan to fulfil that promise in the future?

Last year I welcomed the announcement of a £227 million investment, including a £50 million subsidy to support the rural post office network. However, the CWU rightly stated that it is unlikely that this investment will be sufficient given the amount the post office will have to raise to cover future legal claims associated with the Horizon scandal, which remains the greatest public scandal that our country has suffered, and the implications of which are still being felt by many current and former sub-postmasters who are struggling to gain the compensation the Minister seemed to promise. The more than 900 false prosecutions resulting from the Horizon scandal destroyed lives, families and reputations, and we have yet to see public confidence restored. Indeed, I do not believe that public confidence will be restored without justice for those whose lives were ruined. The Government must ensure that this justice does not come at the expense of our post office network’s survival. What steps is the Minister taking to maintain the financial viability of the Post Office, and will considerations be made for the continuation of the subsidy beyond 2022?

Finally, many Members have spoken about the importance of access to cash. It is worth noting that the subsidy I have spoken about is for the rural networks, but with 55 banks closing every month and up to 8 million people relying on cash daily, the impact of closures on access to cash in both rural communities and urban ones such as my own must be considered. The post office network provides financial services to individuals who are digitally excluded, are ineligible for a bank account, or use cashless services. In 2019, a report by LINK found that 47% of the UK population believes that losing that access to cash would present real challenges. Despite that, 10% of free-to-use ATMs were disconnected during the pandemic, further exacerbating the lack of access. Post offices have been left to pick up the slack, with recent figures suggesting that they will shortly exceed £3 billion a month in cash deposits and withdrawals for the first time in history, so I ask the Minister what assessment he has made of the impact of bank closures on the importance of the post office network, and what plans he has to ensure that banks offer support to post offices that take up their services.

As we have heard, post offices across the country offer more than commercial services: they are a source of social interaction for the vulnerable and lonely, a key touchpoint between people and Government services, and a vital part of local communities. The Post Office is a great British institution that has fulfilled a social purpose for centuries, but it is also an institution that the Government are failing to support. Managed decline is the story of our times under the Conservative Government. Labour is committed to protecting our post office network, and will fight to ensure that postmasters are given the support that is needed to guarantee that network’s survival. I hope the Minister will join us in that mission.

[Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair)]

I ask the Minister to allow two minutes at the end for the mover to wind up.

Net Zero Strategy and Heat and Buildings Strategy

Clive Betts Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Greg Hands]

I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. The transport section in the net zero strategy is very comprehensive on this and very extensive on how we get more people to switch to electric vehicles. In terms of some of the details, I invite him to ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport who leads on this at the next Transport questions.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The other week, Lord Deben, the chair of the Climate Change Committee, speaking at the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee, indicated that, if we are to hit the Committee’s targets, local government has an incredibly important role to play in the retrofitting of existing homes, the building of new homes, local planning policies and local transport policies. Is it therefore not disappointing that there is not one single mention of the role of local government in the Minister’s announcement today? What has the Minister to say about that?

[Greg Hands]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the annex of the net zero strategy, which sets out in some detail our response to Lord Deben’s annual report earlier this year. I think he will find in the annex a lot of the good mentions of local government for which he has been looking.