Ministry of Defence
Chris Vince Excerpts(1 day, 22 hours ago)
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Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
The hon. and gallant Member has great experience in these matters. I think he must have been reading my speech. If he is patient, I think he will get exactly what he wants.
The PAC recommended more than two years ago that the Government should set up a sensitive scrutiny committee to examine confidential military expenditure. I am grateful to the Secretary of State for Defence and the Minister on the Front Bench today, the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry, for their careful consideration of that matter. I hope it will now be possible to make real progress, but as the Minister will remember, I raised this matter in the estimates debate in June last year. I hope it will not be necessary to raise it again in another year’s time.
There is a commitment to increase defence expenditure from 2.2% of GDP to 2.5% by 2027, followed by an increase to 3.5% of GDP by 2035. In the Government spending review, the current budget is expected to increase by 18.2%, or £11.3 billion by 2028-29. Minister, we really do need to see those numbers incorporated into the Government’s expenditure plan in the autumn Budget so that we can be absolutely certain about them.
Many Members will know—certainly the Chair of the Defence Committee knows, because I have been a guest on his Committee—that the MOD has been reorganised into the Quad: the permanent secretary Jeremy Pocklington; the Chief of the Defence Staff, Air Chief Marshal Richard Knighton; the National Armaments Director, Rupert Pearce; and the Chief Of Defence Nuclear, Madeleine McTernan. I sincerely hope, given their new powers, they will radically reform how the MOD functions. We need to take a more strategic view of systems that we procure—going to the point made by the hon. Member for Plymouth Moor View (Fred Thomas)—and consider above all the capability and speed we are able to acquire them.
Why is it, I say to the Minister, that the Japanese can procure their version of the highly sophisticated Type 26 frigate, a Mogami class, in a third of the time that we do? The consequence of that is that the Australians have just struck a deal for £10 billion to purchase those ships from the Japanese. Why is it that the Israelis can procure their military equipment with just 1,000 people, yet our procurement body, Defence Equipment and Support, employs 12,500 people? Our procurement system is far too slow, subject to mission creep, usually late and usually over-budget. As the Chair of the Defence Committee said, Ajax is a classic example of all those problems. We need to learn those lessons, move on and make sure they do not happen in future.
Last week, as the hon. Member for Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton (Jim McMahon) mentioned—he is no longer in his place—I joined a group of 20 MPs who visited Ukraine. We were in air raid shelters several times during our visits to Odessa and Kyiv. On one night the Russians fired 290 drones: 220 were destroyed but 70 got through, causing a significant amount of damage, and a few injuries and fatalities as well. Ukraine’s technology and digital capability in tracking and destroying those drones is some of the most sophisticated in the world. The drone operators’ experiences are directly and rapidly informing their procurement decisions. The Ukrainians are able to change the specification of their drones within a week. I suggest that it would probably take us some months to do the same thing.
One of the top Ukrainian military experts told us that the future of warfare was following three domains: drones, cyber/electronic and space. I think, hearing those words, that some of our capabilities in those areas need bolstering pretty rapidly. We and NATO need to learn the lessons of the war in Ukraine. Without being too specific, there are severe gaps in NATO’s anti-drone technology.
The experts also made the telling point that modern main battle tanks can cost between $4 million to $9 million per unit, but they can be destroyed by a swarm of drones costing less than $20,000 each. They say that tanks are effectively redundant. The Ukrainians inform us that 80% of their kills are as a result of drone strikes. Modern warfare is changing rapidly, and the MOD needs to be sufficiently agile to adapt.
From the recent activity in Cyprus, and other lessons learned from the conflict in Ukraine and ongoing war in the middle east, we need to invest in comprehensive counter-drone systems and training across our armed forces. As an example, we use the Sky Sabre air defence system, which can shoot down drones, but can cost up to £250,000 a shot. We need to invest further in anti-drone technology to ensure we can do this far more rapidly and cheaply.
As I am sure the Minister is aware, last Thursday the PAC visited RAF Marham, which houses two F-35 squadrons. I have four main takeaways from that visit, all of which stem from the lack of urgency to be ready for war according to General Walker’s three-year timescale. First, the accommodation for our servicemen needs urgent upgrading. It is a disgrace that servicemen can be sent on long tours while their families do not have proper accommodation.
My second takeaway was the effect that has on retention. We were told that pilots and training instructors for the F-35 programme are 50% below optimum levels, which is highly unsatisfactory for a project of this importance.
Thirdly, it is difficult to plan the whole operation when the timing and procurement of the additional 27 F-35s are unclear. Hopefully, that will be revealed in the defence investment plan when it is published.
Fourthly, one of the squadrons had recently returned from the highly successful Operation Highmast to deploy around the world, ending up in Japan. Now, in a matter of a week or two, they have had to redeploy to the middle east. This is a good illustration of how some of our servicemen face considerable stretch. This is to be expected in wartime, but more resources must be deployed to support them and their families. Another example of that is that our submarine crew on HMS Vanguard recently served a 204-day deployment.
The MOD budget is going to grow considerably, but the money is not going to purchase military hardware in the most strategic or cost-effective way. That will happen only if the Quad radically reforms the way the MOD has been run, especially with smarter recruitment of personnel and procurement of equipment.
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
It is really interesting to hear the hon. Gentleman speak about personnel. We have spoken a lot about spending in the MOD, in particular on the need for improved technology; I wonder whether he could touch on spending on personnel and the support we give them. What more does he think we could do to support our service personnel, who obviously do a brave job every day?
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. In the reorganisation of the MOD into the Quad that I have talked about, the critical person is the Chief of the Defence Staff, because he has now assumed responsibility for all personnel matters. I am sure that he will be looking at this very carefully.
We need to look at recruiting people with different skills from those we have recruited for in the past. To operate drones, for instance, as the hon. Gentleman knows, we need people with good computer and dexterity skills. That may mean recruiting youngsters, who have the brains to be able to do this work, but who are not necessarily the people we would traditionally have recruited to be running around the battlefield 100% of the time. It might mean different things; it might mean retraining some of our existing personnel to operate these new weapons.
Above all, our armed forces are at the lowest they have been for decades—the Army in particular. We will need to bolster the numbers somewhat because of the reason I have just given: the overstretch of our personnel. We cannot go on doing that to them. We need to have enough people available on rotation so that next time a long deployment comes around, different people—different regiments and different squadrons—are deployed.
There are a lot of things we need to think about when it comes to personnel. One is that we must have a pipeline in the future. The PAC did an inquiry into reserves and cadets, and it seems to me that we need to do a little better in both categories. [Interruption.] I can see that you are urging me to finish, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have overrun, but I did not wish to try your patience. Simply put, we cannot go on doing what we did in the past. We need to do things differently and better in the future.
Ministry of Defence: Palantir Contracts
Chris Vince Excerpts(3 weeks, 2 days ago)
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Luke Pollard
As I have been clear to the House in a number of answers, we will continue to have a security and defence relationship with the United States, and it is in our national interests to do so. We are a party that takes defence and security very seriously, which is something that I hope the hon. Gentleman’s party would do more of, although I have much respect for him. I will continue to ensure that we get the best services for our armed forces as we move to warfighting readiness. I have answered the question about minutes, and it will be for Downing Street to publish that in due course.
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
I welcome this Government’s record funding for our defence, and I also recognise that the US is one of our closest allies. In this House we often talk about energy security, but I sometimes think that we do not talk enough about the security of security. What more can this Government do to invest in UK tech firms so that we are less reliant on foreign firms?
Luke Pollard
My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we should look at security, data security and the opportunities here. In the strategic defence review, we set out our direction of travel in defence, and investing in new technologies, including artificial intelligence, is key to securing our national security. I want to see the best-in-class products used by our armed forces, and I also want to see more British small and medium-sized enterprises, in particular, being able to access this area. We have set up the Defence Office for Small Business Growth, and we are looking in particular at how we can support small defence AI companies to onboard their software in a whole range of defence utilities. We will continue to do so as we look to spend more of our rising defence budget with UK SMEs.
Armed Forces Bill
Chris Vince ExcerptsMonday 26th January 2026
(1 month, 1 week ago)
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John Healey
The right hon. Gentleman knows that he is speaking about the legislative provisions of a different Bill that is before the House. We will deal with that and strengthen protections for veterans. Successive Governments have failed because it has been too difficult, but, with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland leading the way, we will finally have a settlement that allows the full implementation of the Good Friday agreement.
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State will know that one job I did before coming to this place was to work at a homelessness charity. It was particularly difficult to see homeless veterans coming to me in need of support. In my constituency, we have nearly 2,000 veterans. Will he outline what additional support the Government will give to home our veterans, and how we will support them with mental health issues, particularly post-traumatic stress disorder?
John Healey
My hon. Friend is right. The short answer is that there is record funding to support the mental health and wellbeing of veterans; there are record levels of support for veterans’ groups, with a new wave of Valour centres shortly to be announced by the Minister for Veterans and People; and there is, of course, a commitment to ensure that no veteran loses out on their right to social housing because of the local connection test, which was in place until this Government removed it after the election.
James Cartlidge
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his service in Afghanistan, and that of other colleagues present in the Chamber. He is absolutely right. When we debated the President’s remarks about Greenland, I made the point on the media round that Denmark had the highest per capita losses in Afghanistan, and the other nations all suffered. We all fought together because it was a common cause.
Chris Vince
As the shadow Secretary of State knows, I always try to find cross-party consensus. Will he join me in praising Private Robert Foster, who was from Harlow and who lost his life in Afghanistan? Members from across the House had constituents who lost their lives serving this country, and we should all be incredibly proud of them.
James Cartlidge
I echo what the hon. Gentleman says. I pay tribute to his constituent and to all those who sacrificed so much in that campaign.
Oral Answers to Questions
Chris Vince Excerpts(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Callum Anderson (Buckingham and Bletchley) (Lab)
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)
The Government are putting NATO first and stepping up on European security. In the past month alone, I have met US, German and Estonian counterparts to discuss deepening our co-operation and protecting NATO’s eastern flank. But it does not stop there; this is about joint exercising and joint industrial co-operation. In just the past 12 to 18 months, we have done an amazing frigate deal with our Norwegian partners, we have done a deal for Typhoons with Turkey, and we are building our industrial and exercising co-operation across the whole of the NATO flank.
Al Carns
The reality is that armies, navies and air forces respond to crisis; economies, industries and societies win wars. We are stepping up in these key areas, but we are not alone. As a great general once said, there is only one thing worse than working with allies, and that is working without them. We are doing this together. We are working within NATO to integrate economic security such as supply chain resilience for critical sectors and collective defence planning, and as part of the G7 we are strengthening investment, screening, export controls and the protection of critical national infrastructure.
Chris Vince
As the Minister will be aware—I mention it quite often—Harlow is home to high-tech defence innovation and skilled jobs. Will he confirm that one consequence of the historic NATO summit in June is that there will be further investment in defence and resilience that constituencies such as mine can benefit from?
Al Carns
This Government are not hollowing out defence or taking a dig at defence procurement. This Government are increasing morale, increasing recruitment and, importantly, making defence an engine for growth by investing in SMEs all over the country, with new cutting-edge technology and technological capability that will be battle-winning in the long term.
Oral Answers to Questions
Chris Vince Excerpts(4 months ago)
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Louise Sandher-Jones
I would like to reassure the hon. Gentleman that serving in the armed forces is a fantastic career for any young person. The experiences and skills that one can gain from a career in the armed forces are second to none; I for one am deeply grateful for all the opportunities I had when I served, and I would urge all young people to consider such a career. I assure the hon. Gentleman that this Government are committed to renewing the contract with those who serve. As a veteran, I can assure him that our No. 1 priority is to defend and protect those who serve this nation.
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
I take this opportunity to thank you, Mr Speaker, for the remembrance service we had this morning. It was hugely emotional, and made me think of those from my constituency who gave their lives for our freedom 80 years ago. What will my hon. and gallant Friend the Minister do to continue to champion the servicemen and women who protect this country? We should celebrate all of them, no matter their ethnicity, religion or nationality.
Louise Sandher-Jones
My hon. Friend is right that we must celebrate everybody who contributes to our armed forces, no matter their gender or other protected characteristics. The commitment of this Government to protecting and serving those who serve this nation is total.
UK-Türkiye Typhoon Export Deal
Chris Vince Excerpts(4 months ago)
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Luke Pollard
I am comfortable that we have adequate measures in place on that matter. However, the right hon. Gentleman is right that Türkiye does not participate in the F-35 programme. As part of our work with Türkiye, there is a strong opportunity to ensure that the procurement opportunities that Türkiye has face firmly west rather than east, and that is an important part of the strategic relationship that the UK is seeking to build with our friends in Ankara. If we can find more opportunities to procure British and allied technologies into Türkiye, with it then having less of a reliance not just on combat and sensing systems, but on oil, where it may look elsewhere, that will help to improve all of NATO’s security, as well as supporting our friends in Ukraine.
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, in particular the 8,000 jobs in the east of England resulting from the deal. Does the Secretary of State agree that this further demonstrates this Government’s commitment to being a key NATO ally, which will inevitably keep residents in my constituency safe? I will briefly also pay tribute to my workforce—the Minister will be aware that Raytheon is based in Harlow, and we have a lot of expertise there.
Luke Pollard
I thank my hon. Friend not only for the promotion that he has offered me twice in his question, but for the support he has shown for his workforce. In these times of increased threats, as we are living in a new era of threat, it is important and incumbent on all parliamentarians of all parties to not only become more familiar with the brave men and woman serving in our armed forces who come from our constituencies, but champion the defence opportunities for industries and companies big and small in our constituencies. I know that my hon. Friend does so in Harlow, as do other Members across the House. Please keep that coming—that is how we increase our resilience and our warfighting readiness.
Oral Answers to Questions
Chris Vince Excerpts(5 months, 3 weeks ago)
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Saqib Bhatti (Meriden and Solihull East) (Con)
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister for Veterans and People (Al Carns)
The number of questions on this issue demonstrates the importance that Members in all parts of the House ascribe to the subject of cadets. As we said in the strategic defence review, we will increase the number of existing cadet forces by 30% by 2030 with £70 million of funding, but we are also considering areas of social demographic requirement where new cadet forces can be placed. That will give kids throughout the country fantastic opportunities to flourish and thrive, both at school and as they move to the end of their education.
Al Carns
There are two different issues here. The first one is about expanding the cadet forces by 30% by 2030—there is £70 million behind that, and the plan for how to deliver it is being developed. The second point, on the Public Accounts Committee, is about the Reserve Forces’ and Cadets’ Associations and is primarily about infrastructure, which we are working on now. That is a legacy issue. We are trying to rejuvenate it and make sure that the accommodation, and indeed the infrastructure, is fit for purpose for the cadets and the reserves as we move forward.
Chris Vince
May I, too, welcome the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Louise Sandher-Jones), to her place on the Front Bench?
Before recess, I was lucky enough to visit Harlow and district air cadets and see the wonderful work that they do in supporting young people from across Harlow, teaching them leadership skills and building a sense of community. Will the Minister join me in congratulating Harlow and district air cadets on their work, and recognise the importance that all types of cadets—in this case, air cadets—make to communities like mine in Harlow, and particularly working-class communities?
Al Carns
I thank my hon. Friend 110%. The cadets are all about social mobility, giving kids opportunity and getting them up and out, and that is what Labour is all about. From my perspective, the air cadets are amazing. I went to the summer camp, which had everything—flying planes, STEM, sports and flying drones—and it was absolutely outstanding. I congratulate the Harlow air cadets; hopefully, I will get to visit them in due course.
Louise Sandher-Jones
I think the hon. Member has answered his own question. We are talking about indicators, and indicators are very different from targets. An intelligent recruitment strategy seeks to reach out to all communities across these islands, and we need to monitor how well our narratives are succeeding. If we are to have a truly professional strategy, we have to monitor its success in reaching different communities. That is why we refer to an indicator.
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
Mr Speaker
Order. That question was like the buses, indeed—some are quicker than others, and that one should have been an express.
The Battle of Britain
Chris Vince Excerpts(6 months ago)
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Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Desmond. I thank the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Cameron Thomas) for bringing this important debate to the House. Equally, it would be remiss of me not to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Lizzi Collinge) for her passionate speech, or the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith), who gave a powerful and interesting speech about his father’s experiences in the second world war. I thank him for bringing that to the House today.
I wish to commemorate the battle of Britain, one of the defining moments in our nation’s history, but also to champion the extraordinary contribution of my local community in Essex. While the courage of the Royal Air Force pilots is rightly celebrated across the country, we must not forget that the defence of Britain was not won by pilots alone; it was secured by towns and villages, by the people who built, maintained and sustained the airfields, roads and communications, and by ordinary citizens, who became the backbone of our nation’s resilience.
Essex played a pivotal and proud role in that effort. Airfields such as North Weald and Duxford were protecting London and southern England from the relentless attacks of the Luftwaffe. Near Harlow, RAF Matching, which is in my constituency, contributed to the broader air defence and bomb operations, reminding us that the battle of Britain was fought not only in the skies but on the ground, in every village and town that supported it.
Edward Morello (West Dorset) (LD)
In a similar vein, I pay tribute to the brave radio operators around the country, one of whom, in my constituency, was awarded the George Medal for staying at her post in the Sherborne post office, even after it was hit. It was thanks to the bravery of civilians such as Maude Steele that we were able to succeed in the battle.
Chris Vince
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We cannot talk about those heroes often enough in this place, as far as I am concerned, so I thank him for his contribution. In Hatfield Heath, which is in my constituency, we preserve living links to that history. Prisoner of war camp 116, which was established shortly after the battle of Britain, housed Italian, German and Austrian prisoners. Despite the ravages of time, it remains one of the most complete surviving internment camps in the UK, offering us a window into the human stories of the war.
We also remember the 1944 B-26 Marauder crash, slightly after the battle of Britain and not far from Hatfield Heath, which claimed the lives of three American airmen. The memorial, which was unveiled in 2021, ensures that their sacrifice, and the deep bond between our communities and the wider allied effort, will never be forgotten. I will mention their names: Howard H. Noland, Jacob E. Crider III and Warren E. Terrain. I thank local historian Mark Ratcliff for championing the need to recognise those brave airmen. They came from a foreign land to fight for us, and they lost their lives in my constituency.
I also thank the hon. Member for Tewkesbury for mentioning the foreign airmen who joined forces with the RAF, across our skies and across the channel, to fight fascism. It is not particularly relevant to Harlow, but I pay tribute to the 303 Squadron of Polish fighters, who were some of the bravest and most successful—if that is the right word—pilots who fought in that battle.
Cameron Thomas
In his 1941 report on the battle of Britain, then Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding wrote that the other commands, the Commonwealth countries and four allies contributed unstintingly to meet the emergency, but
“Had it not been for the magnificent material contributed by the Polish squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry, I hesitate to say that the outcome of the battle would have been the same.”
Chris Vince
I know that a friend of mine who sadly passed away, Paul Walentowicz—whose father fought in the battle of Britain as a Polish fighter—would be very proud to hear the hon. Gentleman say that, so I thank him.
When commemorating these events, it is important to look back. It is about honouring the courage of the RAF, the allied forces, and the local men and women whose work, diligence and sacrifice made victory possible. However, let us recognise that RAF and Army personnel still serve and protect this country. We have an hon. Gentleman in the room today, the Minister for Veterans and People, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Selly Oak (Al Carns), who we should mention in that same breath. We should recognise them at every possible opportunity.
Ultimately, the events and the information that I have shared today connect our local identity, educate future generations, and preserve the heritage that connects national history to everyday lives. I put on record my thanks to Hatfield Heath parish council and Hatfield Regis Local History Society for their work. I recently joined them for their VJ commemorations, and saw the effort that they make to preserve that history.
Let us remember that the story of the battle of Britain is not just about the pilots in the sky; it is the story of Essex, of Hatfield Heath, of Matching and of every community that stood together to defend our country. We must ensure that the courage, determination and sacrifice of those who came before us continue to inspire and guide us today.
Victory over Japan: 80th Anniversary
Chris Vince Excerpts(7 months, 1 week ago)
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David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con)
Last weekend I met my constituent Margaret Barbour, of Rosefield farm near Annan, to hear about the experience of her father, Sergeant Major Jock Wylie, and to look through the letters, paperwork and photographs that she has kept. A riding instructor in the Lanarkshire Yeomanry Territorials, Jock was deployed in 1940 to the far east. By 1942, after the fall of Singapore, he was taken prisoner by the Japanese. Thus began three years and eight months of unimaginable suffering. Jock was not a “guest” of the Imperial Nippon Army, as their propaganda called it, but their slave. Jock spent time in Changi prison in Singapore before being sent to the notorious Kinkaseki jungle camp on Formosa—now known as Taiwan. Hundreds of Jock’s fellow prisoners died on that journey.
There, along with hundreds of others, he was forced to work in copper mines in horrific conditions, often up to 18 hours a day. Starved, beaten and stripped of dignity, men were tied to stakes under a burning sun, given salted rice or left in bamboo sweat boxes without water. Every day they were forced to take a walk past prisoners who had been beheaded for alleged misdemeanours and had their heads placed on poles, with their full military headgear still worn as the flesh around it decayed. Jock and his colleagues were reduced to skin and bone. He was over 12 stone when captured, and barely 6 stone when released. The first person to see him at the local railway station on his return burst into tears at the sight of him.
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
The right hon. Gentleman is telling a vivid story—one that would be very familiar to a former constituent of mine, George Money, whose daughter, Pam Gillespie, leads the VJ Day commemorations every year in my constituency. Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that it is so important to tell these stories so that our generation and the next generation recognise the sacrifice of these men, as well as the experiences of their families when they returned to them in that way?
David Mundell
I absolutely agree, which is why this debate is so important. Many of those men did not feel able to speak about their experience, or found when they returned to the UK that the public wanted to move on, now that the war was over. It is incumbent on us to relay these experiences, which is why I want to tell Jock’s story tonight.
Red Cross parcels rarely arrived in the camp, and dysentery, beriberi and malaria ravaged the prisoners. Somehow, Jock managed to stay alive, and he became a beacon of hope for other prisoners as, in the dark nights, he sang a song called the “Dumfriesshire Foxhounds”, a tune that lifted spirits and became so well known that even the Gurkhas and Australians joined in.
Jock never gave in to bitterness, but the scars he carried—both physical and emotional—never truly healed. When he returned to Lockerbie, he embraced his family and the life he had left behind, becoming a major part of the annual Lockerbie gala. He shared his stories not to gain sympathy, but to honour truth and bear witness. He spoke of the Gurkhas—the “bravest little men”, who moved like ghosts in the jungle. He never forgot the cruel warnings prisoners were given, after being forced to dig potentially their own burial pit, that if the Americans came, the prisoners would all be burned alive, as he had seen happen to Gurkhas in Singapore.
Let us take this opportunity to remember not just what Jock and his fellow prisoners of war endured, but what they stood for: duty, dignity and decency. We owe Jock—a man who, despite everything, found the strength to go on—and the men and women like him, more than monuments. Let us not allow the fading of photographs or the yellowing of old newspaper clippings to erase stories like his. Let us speak them aloud, share them and learn from them. When the last witnesses are gone, all that remains is what we choose to remember.
Defence
Chris Vince Excerpts(8 months ago)
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Mr Francois
The purpose of this instrument is to provide for the continuation in force of the Armed Forces Act 2006, which would otherwise expire in mid-December 2025. In essence, the measure provides for the 2006 Act to continue in force for a further year, taking us up to a deadline of 14 December 2026.
For those with an historical interest—among whom I include myself—the principle of the legislation dates back to the Bill of Rights 1688, as the Minister intimated, which, given that it followed on from the civil war, declared the
“raising or keeping of a standing army within the United Kingdom in time of peace, unless with the consent of Parliament, to be against the law.”
This provision has resulted in the requirement, since 1688, that all legislation on discipline in the armed forces be annually renewed, hence this order.
As the Minister stated, this instrument should have support across the House, and I am sure that it does. However, yet again, when we are debating defence—when we are debating an order that is fundamental to the discipline and integrity of our armed forces—there are no Reform MPs in the Chamber. Why? It is because Reform does not do defence. The Minister and I have seen that time and again over the past year—so there is a point of consensus, if he wants one.
While this order might appear to be a mere formality, albeit an important one, it gives me the opportunity to ask my opposite number, the Minister for the Armed Forces, four important questions, but before I do, I will just report to the Minister that the cadets, who are an important part of the armed forces family, are indeed well disciplined and in good heart. I attended an Armed Forces Day event in Basildon on Saturday, as I have done for years, and was honoured to be invited to inspect the Air Cadets on parade. When I asked one very smart cadet why he had decided to join the Air Cadets, he replied, “Because my mum made me, Sir, although three years in, I’m very grateful that she did.” I also managed to grab a quick drink with some veterans in a local hostelry. However, mysteriously, all four MPs in the Basildon borough—none of whom are Labour MPs—appear not to have been invited this year. I can only presume that our invitations were lost in the post. I say gently to the Minister, more in sorrow than in anger, that playing silly partisan games like this is demeaning for the Labour-led council.
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
On that point, will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr Francois
No.
Armed Forces Day is too important for this sort of silly nonsense, which embarrasses Basildon council in the eyes of the public and, indeed, its local MPs. In all seriousness, perhaps the Minister could have a word with his colleagues on the council and make sure that this unfortunate oversight does not happen again.
Defence is traditionally a bipartisan issue. We all believe in the defence of the realm, and I have always believed that it is the first duty of Government. However, I say to the Minister, on the Floor of the House, that he cannot have it both ways. He cannot on the one hand plead for unity between the Government and the Opposition and then, when it suits, imply that Opposition spokesmen are Russian, Chinese or Iranian fellow travellers just because they had the temerity not to agree with the Government on their bonkers Chagos deal. My honest advice to the Minister is to make up his mind and be consistent; he will then receive the respect that he asks for.
I turn to the order. Armed Forces Acts are normally subject to quinquennial review. We had Armed Forces Acts in 2011, 2016 and 2021, and we can expect a further Act before the instrument expires in December 2026. Given the vagaries of parliamentary life, few things are certain, but assuming for a moment that it will be the Armed Forces Minister and I who will take this legislation through on behalf of our respective parties, this seems a good opportunity to ask the Minister two questions. First, what are the latest timings for that legislation, and when can we expect to see a Bill? Secondly, could he give the House some idea of the likely key themes of that Bill, and the areas, if any, in which the legislation is likely to differ materially from the Armed Forces Act 2021? In fairness, he dropped a hint a few moments ago that there will be service justice provisions; perhaps he could expand on that slightly, if he has the opportunity. I ask because there will be a large number of interested parties, including the armed forces themselves, obviously, the armed forces families federations, military charities and others. From previous experience, I can say that they will take a close and important interest in the Bill. Giving them as good a heads-up as possible is clearly desirable. Perhaps the Minister could assist the House with that.
As the explanatory notes that the Minister referred to point out, were this order not to be passed,
“The key effect…would be to end the provisions which are necessary to maintain the armed forces as disciplined bodies. Crucially, the 2006 Act confers powers and sets out procedures to enforce the duty of members of the armed forces to obey lawful commands. Without the 2006 Act, those powers and procedures would no longer have effect; Commanding Officers and the Court Martial would have no powers of punishment in respect of a failure to obey a lawful command or any other form of disciplinary or criminal misconduct. Members of the armed forces would still owe allegiance to His Majesty, but the power of enforcement would be removed.”
Clearly, that would be very undesirable, and for the avoidance of doubt, we will most certainly not vote against this order in a few minutes’ time, but there is an important point here about members of the armed forces being required to obey lawful commands. That brings me on to my third question for the Minister.
As recently as Defence questions on Monday, we debated in the Chamber the fate of the 300,000 or so British Army veterans who served in Northern Ireland on Operation Banner. They were lawfully commanded to help uphold the rule of law in support of the Royal Ulster Constabulary GC, now the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and to protect all people in Northern Ireland, of whatever tradition, from heinous acts of terrorism, whether by bomb or by bullet. As the Minister will be well aware, the Government have tabled a so-called remedial order that would cut out elements of the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023, thus potentially opening up some of those veterans to an endless cycle of investigation and reinvestigation. The order also makes it easier for the likes of Gerry Adams and his compadres to sue the British taxpayer for hundreds of millions of pounds.
According to a press report in The Daily Telegraph yesterday and an associated answer by the Northern Ireland Secretary to a parliamentary question, the Government have decided to drop the part of the remedial order that would assist Mr Adams and his associates in suing the British taxpayer. If that report is true, we Conservative Members would warmly welcome it. However, it does not solve the problem of our brave veterans who served in Northern Ireland often being persecuted at the behest of Sinn Féin.
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank the Minister for his statement. I appreciate him bringing the debate to the Floor of the House. It shows the importance of the issue and the importance that the Government place on our armed forces and, in particular, our armed forces personnel. I welcome the pay rise that this Government are giving our service personnel and the commitment that the Minister has made personally to tackle recruitment and retention issues, as well as, of course, the £5 billion increase in spending.
As I was unable to intervene on the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois), I must say that I am disappointed that this has turned into a party political debate, but I assure everyone in the House—after saying that—that I do not intend to say any more on that matter.
This order reflects a constitutional requirement, but it also gives us an annual opportunity to thank our brave servicemen and women. As I have mentioned previously in this House, I am the son and, like most people my age, the grandson of veterans, so I recognise the sacrifice that our armed forces families make for this country.
If the continuation order is not agreed, commanding officers and courts martial will no longer have the power to punish or discipline service people, so it is obviously really important that we pass it today. We should recognise that, for the vast majority of our servicemen and women, the part of the Act covered by the order is irrelevant. However, we must support our servicemen and women as they support us, which is why I welcome the work of Ministers and veterans on Op VALOUR.
As Lord Coaker said in the other place:
“we inhabit a world that is more dangerous than at any time since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 22 October 2024; Vol. 840, c. GC84.]
That is something that everybody in this House can reflect on.
Like many Members from all parties, I attend the turning of the page ceremony organised by the Speaker’s Office and the Serjeant At Arms. Every week, I hear the names of Members of this House and children of Members of this House who lost their lives in the second world war, and I find it incredibly moving. This morning, it was particularly moving when one name was read out: it was the name of a son of a Member of the House who passed away at the age of eight.
Of course, our service personnel and our country cannot work in isolation, and it is incredibly important to recognise the work that our armed forces do in collaboration with our NATO allies.
Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all hon. and gallant Members of this House—I know that one of them, the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Ben Obese-Jecty), is about to speak, and I am glad that he has returned to his place—for what they have done in their past careers to keep us all safe. I also pay tribute to the servicemen and women of my constituency of Harlow and the UK as a whole for their continuous service, keeping us and our families safe during these increasingly troubled times.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.