The Growth Plan

Chris Law Excerpts

Friday 23rd September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

We have. Let me mention two measures: we have reversed the national insurance increase—this was a tax cut for 28 million people, worth £300 a year—and we have brought forward the 1p reduction in the basic rate, to 19p, which is also helping people, to the tune of £330 a year. That is help for lots and lots of our constituents.

[Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)]

I am astonished, because I do not think I have received a letter from any constituent, be they a fat cat, an energy oligarch or someone in the richest 1%, saying, “Please help us with the cost of living.” However, I have had a bagful of constituents write to me about the cost of living and what help there would be in this package, especially for the most vulnerable in our society and the disabled. Given where we are at now, it seems as though the disabled are having to choose heat over eat and they are losing out on therapies. Next week, the Multiple Sclerosis Society will publish a report showing that 40% are going into a real deep crisis this winter, and not a single package has been announced. So let me ask the Chancellor: what package is he going to put forward for the disabled people in our society? We all care for them, yet not a single word for them is in this Budget.

[Kwasi Kwarteng]

We do care for the most vulnerable in our society. That is a moral duty of Government and we have announced measures in the energy space that are helping a whole range of people and that are fundamental to the cost of living and tackling bills this winter.

Covid-19: Government Support for Business

Chris Law Excerpts

Thursday 16th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[John Glen]

As I have said repeatedly, the Government are engaging across sectors. I recognise the depth and breadth of the impact of this variant, and we will look very carefully at what we need to do.

[Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)]

Despite the Treasury spin, last night’s Cobra meetings only confirmed that of course there is no money coming to Scotland; the money announced by the Treasury on Tuesday was pre-announced money. The Scottish Government have already acted to deliver £100 million of funding to support businesses disrupted by health advice in Scotland. They want to give more, but they cannot, due to the restrictions in place on devolved borrowing. Does the Minister accept that this aspect of the devolution settlement is hampering the ability of devolved Governments to act as necessary?

[John Glen]

I am sorry, but I cannot accept that. The Government have given an additional £12 billion to the devolved Administrations, which also benefit from the reduced VAT, the recovery loans and the other UK-wide measures, and the additional £430 million that was agreed this week.

0.7% Official Development Assistance Target

Chris Law Excerpts

Tuesday 8th June 2021 Commons Chamber

[Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP) [V]]

If there was ever a time for humanity to come together, it is now. Millions have lost their lives to covid-19, and millions more will continue to suffer the effects of this global pandemic, so why are this Government choosing to impose devastating cuts to worsen and prolong the suffering of the poorest and most vulnerable communities in the world? Surely the way to honour those who have lost their lives and livelihoods to covid is to ensure that we build forward better across the world. This is the only thing, and the right thing, to do.

The Prime Minister talks about global Britain, but that means nothing when this Government are determined to scale back life-saving assistance to those most in need. He stated that a new royal yacht Britannia would be

“a clear and powerful symbol of our commitment to be an active player on the world stage”.

However, living up to international aid commitments is far more effective in that regard than a flag-waving nostalgia-driven vanity project. If it is financially prudent to spend on a new national flagship and to stockpile even more nuclear weapons, there is simply no excuse not to reverse this devastating cut if we are be an active player on the world stage at the G7 summit this week. Indeed, how can this Government have any credibility whatsoever in calling for others at the G7 to commit to further spending to ensure global recovery when they and they alone are cutting back? The UN has specifically urged Governments to meet the 0.7% commitment, warning that 120 million people have been plunged back into extreme poverty and that the sustainable development goals could be pushed back 10 years due to the pandemic, yet despite all that, this Government have done the exact opposite.

It does not need to be like this. Other G7 countries are increasing their aid and we in the SNP have called for development spending to be ring-fenced at pre-covid levels. The Scottish Government, like others in the international community, will add to vital aid contributions by increasing our international development fund by 50%. The day Scotland becomes an independent player on the world stage cannot come quickly enough. Let us be clear that these cuts will cost lives. Estimates suggest that a million excess child deaths could occur as a result. These could be any of our children. Are we to turn a blind eye because they are someone else’s children? Aid to Yemen, the world’s worst humanitarian disaster, has been cut by 60%. Aid to Africa, where 85% of the poorest 1 billion people will live by 2045, will fall by more than two thirds. In the middle of a pandemic, this Government decided that funding that could have provided 10 million people with access to water and sanitation, the most basic defence against covid, should be withdrawn.

Finally, no one has escaped this pandemic, but the poorest have been expected to pay the ultimate price. No one is pretending either that the challenge of recovering from covid is easy, but as the rest of the world is stepping up, the UK should not be stepping away. Indeed, this is not just about political debate or defeating the Government; it is about saving lives. It is about those who rely on the international community to give them support, who have had their livelihoods destroyed, who will die in the hundreds of thousands, and who have little or no voice. The Government can choose to listen to this House and reverse these cuts, or they can abandon the world’s poorest and become an ever smaller and insignificant little Britain of which we want no part.

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Law Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)]

Westminster has repeatedly failed to support Scottish National party demands to introduce a real living wage, ban unpaid trial shifts and extend rights to those in the gig economy. If Westminster will not act, when will employment law be devolved to allow the SNP Scottish Government to boost the wages of the lowest paid in Scotland?

[Mr Hammond]

As I have just said twice, we have substantially increased the national living wage and reduced the amount of tax that people on low incomes are paying. With regard to the question on the gig economy, the hon. Gentleman will know that my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary is currently reviewing proposals for introducing additional employment protections to those in this sector of the economy.

HMRC Estate Transformation

Chris Law Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mel Stride]

Clearly, I am not in a position to comment on very specific remarks about armchairs, but if the hon. Lady would like to raise the matter with me outside of this statement, I would be very happy to discuss it with her.

[Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)]

There is deep and clear concern from the 479 hard-working HMRC staff at Sidlaw House in Dundee that their jobs may come to an end this year, rather than as planned in 2021, which was promised by the Treasury. Can the Financial Secretary give me an absolute guarantee today that their jobs are safe until the end of 2021?

[Mel Stride]

I would be happy to meet the hon. Gentleman to discuss the details of that specific office location.

Bill Presented

European Union (Revocation of Notice of Withdrawal) (No.2) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Angus Brendan MacNeil, supported by Pete Wishart, presented a Bill to require the Prime Minister to revoke the notification, under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union, of the United Kingdom’s intention to withdraw from the European Union, subject to the legislative consent of the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales; and for connected purposes.

Bill read for the First time; to be read a Second time on 8 February, and to be printed (Bill 326).

Oral Answers to Questions

Chris Law Excerpts

Tuesday 6th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

The Financial Ombudsman Service can make judgments faster and at a lower cost than a tribunal, and the Government therefore think that that is a better way to go than the creation of a tribunal, but I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss the matter in more detail.

[Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)]

The £150 million investment in the Tay cities deal is welcome, but it short-changes my city and the surrounding area by £50 million—the Scottish Government have committed £200 million. Given the serious news of the proposed closure of Michelin in Dundee, with 850 jobs at risk, will the UK Government urgently commit further funding to the Tay cities deal and work constructively with the Scottish Government to protect those jobs?

[Mr Hammond]

My understanding is that, after negotiations, including negotiations involving the Scottish Government, the Tay cities deal is almost agreed, and we hope to see it signed very shortly. Of course, where there are large-scale redundancies in any area, there are other mechanisms by which we can provide support.

Banking in North Ayrshire

Chris Law Excerpts

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Patricia Gibson]

The hon. Gentleman is right that giving 10 banks a reprieve is not enough, and I am of course disappointed that none of them is in Ayrshire. I wish the banks that have been reprieved well, but I wish that we could add to that list the other 52 in Scotland that are earmarked for closure. If we could give a reprieve to the banks in my constituency, I am sure that we would make every effort thereafter to persuade RBS that the reprieve should be permanent. Obviously, the goal would be to save every bank, but I shall come back to that later because the Minister is looking at me with a bit of alarm.

I would throw one question out there in respect of digital exclusion. The banks are fond of telling us that we do not need to have branches and that we can bank online. I would particularly like to know what RBS’s advice would be to digitally excluded customers. Where do they go when the last RBS in their town closes? How do they access banking services?

[Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. RBS likes to talk about the mobile vans that are going around, one of which comes into the rural part of my constituency of Dundee West. They often stay for a very short period; they have steps to get in, so those who are infirm or disabled cannot get in; and when it is raining people often have to stand waiting for half an hour to get service, so get soaked to the skin. Does my hon. Friend agree that the people who are digitally excluded are the very people who come for that essential service?

[Patricia Gibson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. RBS has informed me that in my constituency, North Ayrshire and Arran, it will replace the branches in Kilwinning, Saltcoats and Kilbirnie with mobile banks. That is completely unsatisfactory. The mobile banks are delayed by the weather and by traffic and they are not disability compliant. Apparently, the advice is that if someone is disabled, immobile or has a mobility impairment and cannot access the mobile bank, the banking teller will come out and they can do their banking in the middle of the street. Well, that’s okay, then! It is absolutely shocking.

Concentrix

Chris Law Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Rebecca Long Bailey]

My hon. Friend is right. Sadly, however, when many people tried to complain to Concentrix, all they received was a dull engaged tone, so they did not get very far.

Will the Minister assure the House that she will go beyond the scope of the motion and investigate such contracts more widely? She should consider putting measures before the House that will prevent the incorrect application of payment by results. I fear that Concentrix is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)]

I have just looked at how far back payment by results goes. Will new Labour, or old new Labour, take some responsibility—payment by results was introduced in the English NHS in 2003-04—and condemn it roundly in the Chamber today?

--- Later in debate ---

[Jane Ellison]

I will come on to that, but the hon. Lady has provided me with an apt moment to be clear about what I said on that day. I said that once we had established the facts of the case, people should be paid within four working days. Clearly, some cases are complex and need further details to be provided. In response to the urgent question, I said that once we had established the facts, an automated process would authorise payment to be made within four working days. That is the timeline to which HMRC is working.

As I have said, it is absolutely critical that we get the right information, establish the facts and get payments started again. To that end, HMRC took back from Concentrix 181,000 incomplete cases, and staff have been working hard to resolve them. I can update the House by saying that 178,000 of the 181,000 cases have already been finalised, which represents 98% of them. HMRC has already written to the people concerned in the other 2% of cases, and it should conclude those cases by the end of this month. I want to place on the record my thanks to HMRC staff for their efforts in that regard. HMRC staff are also taking on reviews that are requested of any decision made by Concentrix.

[Chris Law]

It is startling that 98% of cases have been resolved within four weeks. Is there any evidence whatsoever that there were grounds to pursue people over their tax credits in those 98% of cases, or was this a bogus fishing expedition, as all of us in the House are likely to believe?

[Jane Ellison]

It is important to recognise that when a case is resolved, it means that a conclusion has been reached based on the facts. I cannot give the House the breakdown of cases in which payments have been reinstated, cases in which there was in fact an error in the claim that had to be corrected, or indeed cases—a very small number of them—in which claims were fraudulent. The point is that the cases have been resolved according to the facts provided and in the knowledge of the person concerned. We may be able to provide a breakdown at some point, but I am not in a position to do so today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Foster]

This afternoon we received a fairly detailed report produced by the National Audit Office on HMRC’s annual report, which is being discussed by the Public Accounts Committee and which goes into some depth about HMRC’s performance and customer service standards. It can be read in comparison with what we have heard about Concentrix. The PAC is also discussing the tax gap, and the need to ensure that HMRC is performing as we would expect it to in ensuring that the taxes for which we legislate in the House are paid by those who are required to pay them. I genuinely welcome the fact that the National Audit Office will be investigating this matter, and, in that context, I think that some of the comments that have been made today may have been slightly premature.

I was going to intervene on the shadow Minister when she was commenting on our having an independent and fearless inquiry commissioned by the Government. I was struggling to think how more independent and fearless an inquiry could be than a report by the NAO, which is an arm of this Parliament, not of Government. It produces its reports independently. Yes, it will liaise with Treasury officials to ensure that facts are agreed when coming to its conclusions, but ultimately the Comptroller and Auditor General and his team answer to this House via the PAC. It has never held back from making comments, no matter how difficult and challenging for Government Departments, where required. The shadow Minister might wish to intervene and tell us how she felt that another inquiry would be different from that, but I think the right way forward is to get the NAO to look at this and bring a report that can be scrutinised fully and in depth in this House from a team of subject experts who understand how HMRC, the DWP and the benefits system work, and who owe a duty to Parliament, not to the Government. I am sure the depth of information they bring forward will inform future debates on this subject.

[Chris Law]

Is it not clear, then, that the approach over past years of reducing HMRC staff numbers must stop, and stop today? The current Government programme to reduce staff numbers from 55,000 to 35,000 is short-sighted, and from the evidence we have heard today it is clearly time to reverse that.

[Kevin Foster]

I encourage the hon. Gentleman to read the HMRC report being discussed this afternoon by the PAC; it might be worth his attending the session if he gets the chance. It is worth noting that with new leadership, which has been needed for some time, HMRC is starting to turn around its customer service, by moving more staff into dealing with post, for example. There is some evidence that the customer service is improving, therefore, which is welcome, although I know that some of these assertions will be robustly tested by a number of Members, including the hon. Gentleman’s party colleague and PAC member the hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Philip Boswell).

It is vital that the investigation is full and that we look at what comes out of it. I welcome the Minister’s saying that there is an ongoing negotiation about concluding the contract early. We cannot go into the details of that today for obvious reasons, but I hope the work being done to bring this whole sorry tale to an end will be shared with the NAO as part of its inquiry.

One of the conclusions to be drawn is that it is clear that people have been caused pain and suffering that they should not have been caused. People have been subjected to allegations that were flagrantly untrue: the “philandering shop”; the person living down the road; someone who has been dead for some years. We should think about the way the contractor went about things—sending letters with the contractor’s logo that looked very similar to official Government or HMRC letters. We might have debates about whether in future the symbol of the Crown and HMRC should be used on a letter sent by a contractor.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)]

I have spoken a number of times in Parliament on this subject, and every time I speak I listen to the many stories from across the Chamber and elsewhere about individual cases. My constituency is no different in the way that individuals have been affected by Concentrix, which is contracted by HMRC on behalf of this Tory Government As I said in my early-day motion 396, HMRC’s contract with Concentrix is driving families into immediate poverty.

Let me offer the House a few examples. One of my constituents who I spoke with had only part of her address held on the Concentrix system. When background checks were run on the address, a number of people were named as living at the same property. As a result of a needless investigation by Concentrix, this person struggled to feed and clothe her children for over a month. Another lone parent was judged to have made a false claim as a single parent. Following my complaint, it was discovered that an incorrect address had instigated the investigation and, in fact, HMRC owed this constituent a considerable sum of money. Sadly, this was not uncovered before the constituent had to give up her home due to financial hardship. Such cases reinforce the points that have been made in the debate.

[Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that another aspect of this shambles is the at times near-complete breakdown in communication between Concentrix and HMRC, as exemplified by my constituent Dionne Walker, a mother of three, who supplied Concentrix with every single piece of information it asked for, only to find out subsequently that Concentrix had not passed it on to HMRC? Her tax credit application was cancelled, leaving her having to seek crisis loans and go to food banks to feed her three children for the rest of the week. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is unacceptable, and that people such as Dionne Walker and countless thousands of others are owed an apology by this Government?

[Chris Law]

Indeed. I hope to hear such an apology from the Minister this afternoon. My hon. Friend’s example makes the point that I was about to raise—make no mistake, many of these people are single parents, who are already struggling to make ends meet and are the target of this Government.

Evidence has now emerged that Concentrix, on behalf of this Government, sent out, over a two-year period, almost a million letters asking for information about people’s circumstances, in what can only be described as a fishing expedition to detect potentially irregular tax returns. It is up to the constituent to prove that they are innocent before tax credits are reinstated. In other words, they are treated as guilty until proven innocent. It does not end there. Reports suggest that staff at Concentrix are regularly dealing with suicidal callers who threaten to kill themselves. How desperate does the situation have to get before urgent action is taken and the contract is ended?

The social and health impacts of the Concentrix contract, on both members of the public and employees, are horrific. That has been reinforced in the recent report of the Work and Pensions Committee, which found evidence of humiliation of claimants and appalling customer service, and appeal success rates of between 73% and 95%, described as

“a terrible indictment of the original decision-making process”.

Unsurprisingly, this is not the first time that Government outsourcing has failed to meet expectations. I made the point earlier that these payment-by-results contracts go back to 2003, when Labour introduced them for NHS England. I am sure everyone in this Chamber remembers Atos, whose shambolic and cruel tests were designed to strip away benefits from sick and disabled people.

Under the contract that this Government have with Concentrix, Concentrix is paid on a payment-by-results basis—in short, commission. The more tax credit payments Concentrix puts a stop to, the more money it pockets. Our constituents, who are very often in low-paid, part-time work, find themselves at the rough end of a contract that many of us would never sign up to in jobs in our everyday lives. How different the decisions made by this Government would be if Government Members were put on payment-by-results contracts.

It is hard to believe that this Government continue to cut HMRC jobs in Dundee and right across Scotland, while at the same time privatising and outsourcing contracts. HMRC departments, which are already understaffed, have been left to pick up the pieces and have spent months restoring backlogs of claims and errors. It is time to end this madness.

Although Concentrix certainly has questions to answer, I believe that the disastrous implementation of the Concentrix contract by the Tory Government has implications that go far beyond that specific company. This Government have created a system designed to place the burden of their failing austerity agenda firmly on the shoulders of those most disadvantaged in our society. The contract with Concentrix has not been renewed, which is a step in the right direction, and it looks as though it will shortly be brought to a close, which is good news. However, the Government need to go further.

Alongside the ongoing investigation of the Concentrix contract by the Work and Pensions Committee, an inquiry has been initiated by the National Audit Office. I welcome these developments, albeit at a time when too many of my constituents have already suffered. I urge the Government to set up a public inquiry to examine the conditions under which Government Departments award public contracts to private sector providers. Such an inquiry would offer reassurance to members of the public who are weary of hearing disaster stories from the NHS, HMRC and the Department for Work and Pensions. Among the aspects that I believe deserve particular attention are how to devise contracts that ensure value for money and efficiency without allowing companies to profit by manipulating results and ignoring the well-being of people in our society; a clear statement of ethical principles to emphasise justice for individual citizens and parliamentary accountability; and representation of consumer and service user groups in decision making at all stages of formulating, awarding and monitoring contracts.

In the end, everyone in this House must remember that we are privileged to be here and serve the public. In that spirit, I urge this Government to re-examine all their contracts with private companies and ensure that dignity and respect, rather than profit and price, are at the heart of procurement.

House of Lords Reform and Size of the House of Commons

Chris Law Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Michael Ellis]

I do not accept that characterisation at all. There is a proper process for appointments to the House of Lords by committee and a proper vetting process. The reality is that, as I have been saying, the House of Lords is a constantly evolving Chamber. The 2014 Act provided for the expulsion of peers—for example, for non-attendance—and for their retiring, a process that has seen some results. Further reforms introduced in 2015 empowered peers to expel Members for serious misconduct and suspend them beyond the end of a Parliament.

[Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)]

I would like to go back to last year’s Conservative manifesto and the desire to reduce numbers. Did David Cameron not singlehandedly put more than 230 peers into the House of Lords? That is more than 25% of the House of Lords appointed by him alone.

[Michael Ellis]

Tony Blair created far more peers than David Cameron. Until such time as there can be comprehensive reform, we have a system in place that is still being operated.

Concentrix: Tax Credit Claimants

Chris Law Excerpts

Tuesday 18th October 2016 Westminster Hall

[Fiona Mactaggart]

The hon. Gentleman is right. Civil servants are trained to conform with the law. How can Ministers ensure, in this contract or in any future contracts, that there is not a parallel reinterpretation of the law by a private company? When the Minister was informed about the Wikeley judgment, as I hope he was, what did he do to ensure that all future decisions would conform to the law? Civil servants are generally trained in a culture where the law is the guide to how they work; I am concerned that Concentrix staff were not operating within such a culture. There is a real risk of letting out similar contracts in future that do not operate within such a culture.

[Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)]

Does the right hon. Lady agree that the problem is not just with this contract but with all results-based contracts in which there is essentially a commission? Atos was under a similar contract and we all know the terrible damage it did to sick and disabled people. Although it is welcome that we are ending the Concentrix contract in May 2017, the UK Government now need to stop all such contracts and fundamentally review the entire process.

[Fiona Mactaggart]

The hon. Gentleman is right that we should stop such contracts, but we also need to find out the extent to which there has been a failure of policy underlying the Concentrix contract. I agree that the very nature of the contract—having a private company asking for those details—was inappropriate. So was the payment-by-results aspect, for example, and the fact that when the company was under pressure there was no way of bringing in civil servants to help by answering the telephone and so on. Such problems are inherent in that kind of contract, but some of the difficulties must have been created by the way the Treasury and HMRC operated. They provided the company with totally flimsy evidence and suggested it should be investigated. In effect, they ran a campaign against parents who were doing the terribly difficult job of bringing children up on their own. We should be ashamed of ourselves for targeting that group of people, who are resilient but in some ways vulnerable. The job of broader society is to help them in their task of bringing up the next generation.

Many claimants received a letter requiring council tax records, a year’s worth of bank statements, pay slips, childcare costs, divorce papers and household bills. Many people, as I would have done, treated such requests from a private company as probably a phishing exercise by a fraudster. Those people discovered within 30 days that their conclusion was an expensive mistake: their tax credits were stopped. All my constituents who had their tax credits stopped eventually had them restored.

I stress that it happened eventually. It was often after hours on the telephone and the intervention of my staff. Those hours on mobile phones cost an enormous amount for some of these people, who at the time had no money to speak of apart from the meagre wages they earned from their part-time jobs.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)]

Mr Nuttall, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.

Over the last few months, I have heard innumerable distressing accounts from people living in my constituency of Dundee about how the failures of this US multinational contractor are driving families immediately into poverty, driving them to food banks, driving them—in some cases—into losing their homes, and driving individuals from my constituency to make calls saying they feel suicidal because they feel they have nothing left to live for.

Unsurprisingly, this is not the first time that Government outsourcing has failed to meet expectations. In the past, we have seen that results-based contracts do not improve the quality of public services. I am sure that everyone in Westminster Hall today remembers Atos, whose shambolic and cruel tests were designed to strip away benefits from sick and disabled people. Under its contract, Concentrix is paid on a payment-by-results model when tax credit claims are cut; in other words, the more tax credit payments Concentrix puts a stop to, the more commission it pockets.

In July, the Social Security Advisory Committee recommended that

“appropriate safeguards are needed to preserve justice for the claimant.”

So far, and as my constituents’ cases prove, that is clearly not being achieved. To add to that, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is continuing to cut jobs right across the UK, while at the same time privatising and outsourcing contracts. HMRC departments that are already understaffed have been left to pick up the pieces; they have spent months dealing with backlogs of claims and errors.

The contract with Concentrix has not been renewed, which is a step in the right direction. However, this Government need to go further. They should not only put an end to the Concentrix contract immediately but call time on awarding any public contracts on a payment-by-results basis. We all need to remember that those of us who have the privilege to be Members of this House are here to serve the public. In that spirit, we need to ensure that organisations that are allowed to act on our behalf demonstrate a similar commitment to service, dignity and respect, rather than to profit. Payment-by-results contracts should have no place in the delivery of such important services—

[Mr David Nuttall (in the Chair)]

Order. I call Mike Wood.