Charles Hendry
Main Page: Charles Hendry (Conservative - Wealden)National Policy Statements
Charles Hendry Excerpts
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the matter of the draft Energy National Policy Statements.
The revised draft national policy statements for energy set out national policy, which must be considered in determining whether consent should be granted to infrastructure projects that are examined by the Infrastructure Planning Commission. As right hon. and hon. Members will be aware, the previous Administration consulted on a suite of draft energy national policy statements between November 2009 and February 2010. Alongside that consultation, Parliament undertook scrutiny of the draft national policy statements. Scrutiny in this House was undertaken by the Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change, which held a number of oral hearings, requested written evidence and published a report of its findings, together with 30 recommendations and conclusions. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the then members of the Committee for the important work that they undertook and the thoroughness with which they approached it.
This afternoon’s debate is part of Parliament’s scrutiny of the draft energy national policy statements, so I will talk about the purpose of national policy statements and the changes that we have made to them, the parliamentary scrutiny process required for national policy statements, and the coalition Government’s proposals for planning reform. The statements are complicated, lengthy documents that cover all aspects of energy policy, so I will talk at some length in introducing them. I hope that the House will bear with me. I will also give way to any interventions from hon. Members wishing to raise concerns. However, before going into the detail of the national policy statements, I would like to take a moment to set out the background to the coalition Government’s energy policy and the need to build new major energy infrastructure, as it is against that background that such massive new investment is required.
Our energy policy is based on four pillars: energy saving, more renewables, new nuclear, and clean coal and gas. That includes the green deal, which we believe will help to bring existing buildings up to 21st-century efficiency standards. We are taking steps to reduce demand for gas through both energy efficiency measures to help improve our energy security, and demand-side response, through interruptable contracts for large users that will ensure that domestic users are prioritised in an emergency. A reduction in demand will also help to improve our energy security. Under the green deal, home owners and businesses will be able to get energy efficiency improvements without having to pay cash in advance. The private sector will provide the up-front funding, receiving its money back from the energy savings on household bills. That will help to save energy, reduce carbon and protect energy consumers from price rises through greater energy savings.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
I commend the hon. Gentleman on the work that he did on the Energy and Climate Change Committee, and on which he congratulated everyone involved—they say that self-praise is no praise, but there we go. My great worry, and that of many of my colleagues on the Opposition Benches, is that the poor will always suffer. While everybody else is looking for ways of saving money, they cannot do so. What will his Government do to help people who perhaps cannot afford to do what is necessary to make the savings that he is talking about?
Charles Hendry
The hon. Gentleman has often raised this issue in the Select Committee in the past, and it should be at the heart of our thinking. At this time of year, when people are struggling to pay their bills, how they will pay them in the future is a matter of great concern to us.
The nature of the green deal is that it does not depend on the creditworthiness of the individual householder. A charge will be set against the future energy bills of their property, with the condition that the total cost of the energy efficiency measures should be such that it can be repaid through that extra charge over a period of 20 or 25 years. So the people living in those properties will get the immediate full benefit in terms of warmth and reduced energy consumption, but the charge will be brought back over time. We think that this policy has been devised in a way that has at its heart the interests of those who are fuel poor and have difficulty in paying their bills. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that, in all these issues, there are massive costs for consumers. Our job as a Government is to find ways of trying to drive down the number of units that consumers will be using. The green deal is part of that process, as is smart metering.
Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)
May I issue an appeal to the Minister and his colleagues that, as the green deal mechanism is being finalised and formulated, it should not be targeted at only cavity wall and loft insulation? There are many properties in my constituency and elsewhere for which that would be no use at all, and some of those properties are among the least fuel efficient.
Charles Hendry
The hon. Gentleman brings to the House a huge amount of expertise on these issues and I very much welcome his contribution. He has touched on an issue that is at the core of our thinking on how to take the green deal forward. He is absolutely right to say that, while a significant number of houses would be helped if it were to address issues of cavity wall and loft insulation, there are many that do not have cavity walls and many that need additional measures. We are looking at the role that boilers can play in regard to energy efficiency, because that area has not been given sufficient attention in the past. The key will be to find a range of measures that are relevant to each individual property, the savings from which will justify the investment over time. I can give the hon. Gentleman an absolute assurance that the type of houses that he is talking about in his constituency, in mine, and in many others across the country will be very much included as the green deal is developed.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
In my constituency, many properties are not on the gas network, and there are no plans to expand the network into many of the small villages there. Will those properties be able to access alternative sources of heating through the green deal, perhaps through air source heat pumps and so on?
Charles Hendry
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the work that he has done to highlight issues such as these. We said in the coalition agreement that prioritising off-grid customers would be an important part of what we are seeking to do. However, the help for them will not come through the measures in the green deal. His constituents will of course be eligible for support for energy efficiency measures through the green deal, but the renewable heat incentive will give them support for other mechanisms such as air source heat pumps, ground source heat pumps and solar thermal installations. There will be a different funding mechanism for that, and we have confirmed that £860 million will be made available for the renewable heat incentive. We will set out the precise details of that in the next few weeks, and it will target precisely the people that he is most concerned about in that respect.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
The Minister has been very effective in campaigning for the extension of the gas network throughout the United Kingdom, but what he has just said will be of little comfort to people in many areas who simply want a choice. At present, they have oil or liquefied petroleum gas, but they want mains gas, which is often located only a few hundred yards away from their village or hamlet. Do the Government understand their frustration? Given that the market is failing them, would it be possible for incentives to be given in this regard, and for the regulator to ensure that those gas connections can take place?
Charles Hendry
The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. Certainly, encouraging people to install renewable heat sources, particularly in off-grid properties, is part of the solution. He is absolutely right to say, however, that for many people, the convenience of being on the grid will be their primary concern. It must be extremely frustrating to live in a house close to the grid that is unable to benefit from it. Ofgem is working to ensure that the grid is extended, but that is obviously a gradual process. We are considering different ways of dealing with the problem. Grid development is mentioned in the planning policy papers, but we are introducing other measures such as the renewable heat incentive, to help people who currently have no alternative to heating oil or liquefied petroleum gas. I hope that it can be said that we are dealing with the issue comprehensively.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
Do not local councils also have an important role to play? Cornwall council, for example, is undertaking a project involving feed-in tariffs. It will work with the third sector in using the money that it earns from installing solar panels in the county to help those in the greatest fuel poverty—who, as other Members have pointed out, are often off grid—not only through energy efficiency schemes but by providing heat from more appropriate sources, such as ground-source heat.
Charles Hendry
My hon. Friend is right to draw that to the House’s attention. As a result of one of the changes that we have made, local authorities are now allowed to sell electricity directly to the grid. Rather than merely being able to host new facilities, they can now become involved in these processes as partners. They can sell the electricity that is generated, and benefit from the feed-in tariffs or other financial packages that are available. I hope that, in difficult times, councils throughout the country will see such measures as an important potential income-earner and a way of encouraging their communities to move in a low-carbon direction. That is a critical part of Government policy.
We have said that there will be special help for the most vulnerable. The new energy company obligation will provide additional funds for those who are most in need and for homes that are hard to treat, which may need additional support. Our policy also involves the electricity market reform programme, which is a wholesale redesign of our electricity market. There is no doubt that that process, which will begin in a few weeks, is the most fundamental reform of the market for 30 years. It involves a new way of encouraging people to invest in electricity generation, and I cannot over-emphasise the importance that we attach to it. The power sector needs to lead the way when it comes to cutting carbon.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
Many of my least well-off and most vulnerable constituents fear that in five years’ time the lights may go out. What action can the Government take to deal with the backlog of infrastructure repairs?
Charles Hendry
I am keen to reassure my hon. Friend. A couple of years ago, the outlook was a cause for great concern. The recession reduced demand by 5% or 6%, and, although it has grown again, it has not reached its previous level. What appeared to be a serious pinch point now seems to have been pushed further out, but that does not give grounds for complacency. We all know that cold winters and, in particular, cold still days place immense demand on the system, and we need to take action to deal with that.
As much as £200 billion of new investment may be required in our electricity infrastructure. We have to rebuild it. It would have been much better for the country if more of that work had been done before 6 May, and it would have been much better had there not been a five-year moratorium on new nuclear and a delay of some years in new installations. I applaud the conversion of the last Administration, which began to put us back on track, but a number of years were lost.
Charles Hendry
I will give way shortly, but I hope I shall be forgiven if I do not do so immediately, as I am in full flight.
We need to establish a structure that will give people an incentive to invest in new nuclear, clean coal, coal with carbon capture, renewables—in regard to which we have great potential—and new gas plant, along with gas storage. We are alive to all the challenges, and we are moving forward on all fronts.
John Woodcock
The Government talk a great deal about blank pages. Have they whitewashed their time in opposition, when one party was dead set against nuclear and the other wanted it to be a last resort? If they have converted, that is fine, but let us at least have a bit of candour about the process through which the Minister has got to where he is now.
Charles Hendry
The hon. Gentleman is new to the House and he might therefore be unaware of the extent to which we worked very constructively with the previous Secretary of State, the now noble Lord Hutton, and others to try to ensure that we took this agenda forward. As the hon. Gentleman has been a special adviser however, he will be aware that nuclear was taken off the agenda for five years. There was a Government White Paper that said, in effect, “We do not see a need for new nuclear in this country.” There were no qualifications to that statement; it was just stated that there was no requirement, full stop. For five years, that delayed the development of new nuclear.
I completely applaud the work of the previous Secretary of State, which has contributed to our country becoming one of the most exciting in the world for new nuclear development. The reality is that we were constructively involved in that process, but for five years nuclear was taken off the agenda.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
To be candid, the Minister may know that, as per the coalition agreement, many Liberal Democrat Members are still absolutely opposed to nuclear power. Will he confirm that at no point in the last 30 years has it been impossible for private investment for nuclear to come forward, and if Government policy was not preventing that, why does he think no private investment did come forward in the last 30 years?
Charles Hendry
The Government are seeking to address a comprehensive range of issues to do with new nuclear. There have been planning issues; for example, the Sizewell B project took five or six years just to go through the planning stage. Also, regulatory justification is a legal requirement, and that process had to be gone through. Last week, a measure on that passed through this House with a massive majority of over 500 to a couple of dozen, so there has been a significant step forward in that respect. The long-term cost of waste management also needs to be known, and that figure is now being made clear and given to the industry. Other barriers to investment are also now being addressed. Therefore, although it is technically right that there was nothing to stop people investing in new nuclear, it is also absolutely clear that the circumstances did not encourage people to come forward with new proposals.
John Robertson
I should declare an interest: I am chair of the all-party group on nuclear energy. I think the Minister is being slightly disingenuous towards the Opposition. It was Labour who led the fight to put nuclear back on to the table. It was not that it had been taken off the table; it was just that nobody really wanted to touch it, including Ministers who were Members of this House at the time. Therefore, in a spirit of cross-party coalition, will the Minister accept that we did our bit in getting nuclear back on to the agenda, and does he agree that now is the time to make sure that these new power stations are built for the benefit of this country?
Charles Hendry
I am keen that this coalition should get larger and grander every day, so I am delighted to welcome the hon. Gentleman to it. I agree with what he said. I have already twice given credit to the previous Secretary of State. I am very happy to pay tribute to him and the previous Prime Minister for the role they played in putting nuclear back on the agenda.
In response to the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), I think it is true that the challenges we face today are in part a result of not enough construction having been carried out early enough. If there had been more construction in our energy infrastructure over recent years, we would not now be faced with the mountain of needing £200 billion of new investment.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
I am glad to hear that the future of the nuclear industry in the UK will be a good one. Will there, however, be a good future for the UK supply chain for the nuclear industry, particularly in terms of the construction of these stations? What will the Government do to support the supply chain?
Charles Hendry
We are very keen indeed to see the supply chain benefit. We talk to the companies that are looking to invest in this area, and they are very keen to use British know-how, skills and businesses. The Westinghouse approach is to buy where it builds. Therefore, together with Arriva, it has been setting up workshops around the country to encourage people to show the contributions and skills they can bring. From our point of view, this is a critical part of the project. We want them to partner British companies and, as part of that process, we believe there is an opportunity for them to sell that package internationally as well. That is absolutely at the heart of what we want.
Angela Smith
Why, therefore, do the Government refuse to support Forgemasters in its bid to play a strategic part in the development of the supply chain for the future of our power stations?
Charles Hendry
The hon. Lady is very familiar with the argument. We have said that we looked at the issues as we came into government and we identified those that were based on affordability, not on their importance. We believe that Sheffield Forgemasters makes an extremely important contribution in this area. The Government’s position has been clear and what we now do not understand is the Opposition’s position.
We had a vote on regulatory justification last week, which approved two specific reactor types, the Westinghouse and the Areva designs. In that vote the shadow Business Secretary, the shadow Chancellor and the shadow Energy Secretary voted against the approval of those designs. How can the shadow Business Secretary make a case for Sheffield Forgemasters when he has voted against the exact design that it is supposed to be supporting? There is a complete hole in the Opposition’s policy in this area. I hope that this shadow Minister will rise to his feet to give us clarity on those issues, but when three members of the shadow Cabinet vote against the heart of the nuclear policy, the Opposition’s policy is in tatters.
Huw Irranca-Davies
The hon. Gentleman would not expect me to agree that our position is in tatters. As I made clear to him in the debate on the justification orders in Committee, when they went through with our support, we would very much welcome an opportunity for the Minister, alongside his colleagues, to go back to Sheffield Forgemasters and argue the case for making sure that it can be part of the supply chain. He is continually reluctant to do so. I suspect that that is not necessarily because of his reluctance, but because his colleagues are reluctant to argue the case.
Charles Hendry
I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman, for whom I have the highest regard, was going to explain what his shadow Cabinet colleagues had done in that vote. During that debate two weeks ago, we had agreed fundamentally on the need for regulatory justification and he was speaking officially on behalf of the Opposition, yet when it came to the deferred Division in this House a week ago today three of the most senior members of the shadow Cabinet voted against those reactor designs being approved. If they had won that debate, the whole nuclear programme in this country would have been brought to a standstill. If the Opposition are to have credibility in this area, we need to understand why the shadow Chancellor, the shadow Business Secretary, who is the one who will lead on issues relating to Sheffield Forgemasters, and the shadow Education Secretary, who is one of the most senior members of the Labour party, chose to try to stop nuclear power in its tracks.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
Is the stark contrast between those on the two sides of the House not shown in the fact that the financing arrangements for Sheffield Forgemasters were cobbled together in the dying weeks of the Labour Government whereas just five months into a Conservative-led coalition Government we have a comprehensive, coherent national infrastructure plan for the next five to 10 years? That is the difference between government and opportunism.
Charles Hendry
My hon. Friend makes a very important point. In the months just before the election an enormous number of commitments were made, and one of the first things that we had to do as an incoming Government was to identify which of them were affordable. We went through that process extremely thoroughly—I think we have been robust about it—and Sheffield Forgemasters entirely understands the decisions that we have made. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills leads on supporting businesses in these areas and my Department feeds closely into that process. We want Sheffield Forgemasters, which is an outstanding example of a British manufacturing company, to have a key role to play in the future. However, on the basis that I have outlined, we did not believe it was appropriate for the loan to go ahead.
John Woodcock
I hope the Minister will accept that it is important to correct what the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) said if the Government are to retain credibility on this issue. Does the Minister accept that the issue of this loan was being negotiated for more than a year, including at the time when Lord Hutton was Business Secretary, and that it was very carefully considered by that Department over that period?
Charles Hendry
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. As a new Government coming in, we had to look at the financial commitments that we were inheriting. We had to decide which were bad decisions—the Sheffield Forgemasters loan absolutely did not come into that category—and which were the decisions we viewed as simply not affordable. Of course we would love to be able to shower money on a range of good projects around the country, but there is no scope for doing so. As we know from the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, there was no money left. That was what the outgoing Government told us.
Charles Hendry
I am keen to get back to some of the areas where there is consent and general agreement, but I will of course give way to the Opposition spokesman.
Huw Irranca-Davies
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Will he acknowledge that this issue is pertinent to our debate on our national infrastructure and the supply chain? It is my clear understanding, unless the Minister can disabuse me of this, that only one other global supplier makes the piece that Sheffield Forgemasters was going to make. If the company had been given that repayable loan, which would have been repaid to the Government in short order, it would have led the global supply chain—not just for the UK but for export—in the reactors that we passed the justification orders for last week. It is a clear own goal. I ask the Minister to go back to his BIS and Treasury colleagues to see whether there is still an opportunity to bring the measure forward. It is not too late.
Charles Hendry
The hole in the argument is that the hon. Gentleman makes that case on behalf of the Opposition when the shadow Business Secretary, shadow Chancellor and shadow Education Secretary voted against the nuclear programme. As long as the shadow Cabinet has anti-nuclear sentiments at its highest level, any suggestion that the Opposition want a nuclear renaissance is fundamentally questionable.
Charles Hendry
I am keen to move on to other issues, but as the hon. Gentleman has such a strong constituency interest in new nuclear I shall give way.
Albert Owen
The hon. Gentleman and I were both very solid on nuclear power in the last Parliament when the then Leader of the Opposition thought that it should be a last resort. I am pleased that the new Secretary of State and the Prime Minister have made their journey and are in the same position as the Minister and I. The point about the supply chain is important. I know—the shadow spokesman is right—that if this work does not go ahead in Sheffield, Korea is the next port of call. That is not in the British interest. Will the Minister consider that as we go through these new policies and talk about infrastructure, so that we can keep British jobs and British business in the supply chain to help the nuclear industry?
Charles Hendry
I have said several times that our decision is no reflection on the quality of the workmanship at Sheffield Forgemasters. The Government came in, identified that £1 in every £4 of Government spending was borrowed, believed that that position was unsustainable and had to make difficult, tough choices about the right way forward.
Charles Hendry
I would give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Dover, but he was the one who made me depart from my extremely consensual speech into this area of great contention. I am keen that we should get on to the issues of planning policy that are at the heart of our debate.
Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con)
To come back to the future of nuclear power in the UK and the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) about keeping the lights on, Germany is now considering extending the lives of its reactors by up to 12 years. I am a great supporter of the idea that we need to replace our nuclear reactors with new nuclear reactors, but is there any scope in the Department’s plan to extend the lives of our current reactors to try to bridge that gap?
Charles Hendry
My hon. Friend raises an important issue. The situation in Germany is very different from the situation here. The plan in Germany had been to have an artificially early closure of the nuclear fleet, and Chancellor Merkel’s Government have allowed them to operate for their full lives. They have reversed a decision that would have brought about early closure. The approach that we have always taken in the United Kingdom is that plants should operate for their safe life. If there is an independent assessment that they can operate for longer than had been planned, that should be considered. The case here is based on safety and security issues and some recent life extensions have been given, which we welcome. At the end of the day the extensions are a bonus rather than a building block in energy policy, but my hon. Friend makes an important point.
I want to get back to some of the key areas of the debate. Our concern is that the existing market framework will not deliver the scale of investment needed in renewables, nuclear and carbon capture and storage, all of which have significant up-front costs. Our electricity market reform programme will examine the reforms necessary to restructure the electricity market to decarbonise the power sector by the 2030s while maintaining security of supply and affordable prices. We must move quickly to give investors certainty about our reforms because of the long lead-times in developing new generation capacity. Our reform of the planning system for major infrastructure, including for major energy infrastructure, also has an important role, as does the consultation on the revised draft energy national policy statements.
Reducing demand for electricity wherever possible is important in meeting our energy objectives. Our 2050 pathways analysis shows that total UK energy demand from all sources will need to fall significantly by 2050. As I have mentioned, the green deal will save energy in the home and non-domestic buildings. We will also roll out smart meters to help to reduce demand. However, those savings will be offset by increases in other areas, such as the increased use of electricity in industrial and domestic heating and in transport. Our 2050 pathways analysis suggests that demand for electricity may even double by 2050, as we plug into the grid to power our cars and heat our homes.
Decarbonising surface transport is essential to meet our target to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 80% by 2050, as we are required to do by law. We expect electrification to play a major role in achieving that. While electric vehicles can be powered up overnight by fluctuating electricity generation, trains, for example, will need more base load generation. We have already announced £900 million of investment in the electrification of train lines from London to Didcot, Newbury and Oxford, and for lines serving Liverpool, Manchester, Preston and Blackpool. In the new year, we will consult on the next steps for building a national high-speed rail network, which will free up capacity to allow a shift of freight from road to rail and provide an attractive low-carbon option for travelling between our major cities.
Some 80% of journeys in the UK are currently made by car, and cars will continue to play an essential part in our national transport infrastructure. The Government announced in the spending review investment of more than £400 million in measures to promote the uptake of ultra-low-carbon vehicle technologies. That includes the plug-in car grant, which will be available from January 2011 and which will provide a grant of 25% of the vehicle price up to £5,000. We are also continuing the plugged-in places programme, which supports the development of electric vehicle recharging infrastructure in strategic locations. As part of the coalition agreement, we have also undertaken to mandate a national network of vehicle recharging facilities.
We want to see more decentralised and community energy systems, such as microgeneration, make a contribution to our targets on reducing carbon emissions and increasing energy security. However, we do not believe that decentralised and community energy systems are likely to lead to the significant replacement of large-scale energy infrastructure, which is why there is an urgent need for new major energy infrastructure.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I have flicked through the plans, and I cannot see any reference to hydro-power in the context of micro-schemes. Do the Government intend to support hydro-power and particularly small-scale projects?
Charles Hendry
The Government are committed to taking us forward, and I welcome my hon. Friend’s support in that respect. Hydro has an important contribution to make. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), who has responsibility for climate change, set out how we can hope to achieve that ambition in his recent speech on the subject. Most issues that we are discussing today relate to major applications of more than 50 MW. Most hydro schemes will fall below that threshold and will therefore be subject to local planning decisions.
The section of the energy policy statement that deals with renewable energy does not cover major hydro schemes, such as major schemes involving tidal flow, because at this stage there is no evidence of a serious application for such a scheme of more than 50 MW. If that happens, we will need either to review the national policy statement or to introduce one specifically for marine technologies. In this country, we have a network of rivers, which are a potential source for electricity generation that we are keen to see harnessed.
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
The Minister has discussed the urgent need for new renewable electricity generation capacity. If that is the case, why is the banding review of renewables not reporting until August 2012 with implementation in March 2013? Will he consider speeding up that process, so that we can get the capital that is waiting for, for example, biomass power stations released and get such projects under way?
Charles Hendry
One of the issues for investors in this area is certainty. They want to be able to plan for the long term and to know what rate of support they will get under whatever mechanism is in place. A date of 2013 enables people to plan a transition to whatever the banded level will be after that. I understand the need for early clarity, and if there are ways we can provide that, we shall seek to do so. We seek to work constructively because we understand that the alternative can be a hiatus in investment, with investment dropping off for a period of years in advance of the threshold and the level of support changing. It is important, in terms of national interest, to have a continuous flow of investment.
I turn now to the issues that have been covered in the energy national policy statements. Perhaps it would be helpful if I briefly set out the purpose of the documents before us today. The revised draft energy national policy statements consist of a suite of six national policy statements and a number of associated documents. They are not intended to set out new energy policy. They are consistent with and explain current energy policy and how it relates to the planning consent process. Similarly, we are not using national policy statements to change the standard for consenting projects. They neither raise nor lower the bar on how a major energy infrastructure project is examined and consented. They are there to explain how such decisions should be made. They set out the consenting policies that need to be considered in the examination of major energy infrastructure and the decision on whether to grant or decline consent. At the same time, they will ensure that new major energy infrastructure projects respect the principles of sustainable development. They will allow not only the Infrastructure Planning Commission but developers and local residents to see the basis on which applications must be considered.
There is an overarching energy national policy statement that sets out the Government’s policy on energy and energy infrastructure development; an energy need statement on the need for new nationally significant energy infrastructure projects; the assessment principles that need to be taken into account in examining and deciding on proposals for energy infrastructure development; and generic impacts for all energy infrastructure, and how they should be assessed and mitigated to ensure that the right balance is reached between securing our energy needs and protecting the environment.
There are also five technology-specific energy national policy statements, covering fossil fuel electricity generation; renewable energy infrastructure, which deals with onshore wind, offshore wind and energy from biomass and/or waste; gas supply infrastructure and gas and oil pipelines; electricity networks infrastructure; and nuclear power generation.
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)
We know that we are legally required to reduce carbon emissions by about 80% in the next 40 years. Can we fulfil that requirement, given that of the 59 GW of new capacity required in the next 25 years, 33 GW of which is needed from renewables, we have only 2 GW currently under construction? The other 26 GW that is needed will, presumably, come from low-carbon nuclear. The Government have made enormous progress in this area—I acknowledge that—but would there be more scope to look at nuclear if we, for whatever reason, did not hit those targets?
Charles Hendry
I pay tribute to the work that my hon. Friend has done as an ardent supporter of the Heysham plant in his constituency and of the case for a new plant in that area. The role for nuclear has been set out clearly in the national policy statements. We believe that it has a fundamental role, but we also have to be realistic about what is achievable. We have identified sites that could be used for 16 GW of new nuclear power, but that is as much as the energy companies believe can be constructed over the next 15 years, which is the time scale that the national policy statements cover. That is not necessarily the end of the ambition, but it looks like what is achievable and realisable over those 15 years. There is no doubt about the Government’s ambition in terms of new nuclear.
Martin Horwood
On the subject of what is realistic, and referring back to what the Minister was saying about sustainability, is he aware that the Chartered Institution of Water and Environmental Management has said that current known reserves of economically extractable uranium may last only between 40 and 85 years? Given that other economies are also investing in new nuclear, we may be looking at the lower end of that scale rather than the higher, so new nuclear cannot be regarded as sustainable in any real sense.
Charles Hendry
I have certainly heard that point before. The OECD has a fundamentally different view of the availability of uranium stocks, and there is work to be done in plutonium reprocessing, which would provide an additional source of fuel. Furthermore, work is being done on the development of thorium reactors, which do not give rise to many of the concerns that people have about uranium reactors. A great deal of progress can be made and, at the end of the day, the decision is for investors to make. If they do not believe that there is sufficient uranium to power their plants for their lifetime, they will not make that investment. They will base their decision on the facts available to them and they will need to be reassured about the availability of stocks.
The overarching national policy statement contains information on the impacts that need to be considered for all energy infrastructure, while the technology-specific NPSs contain additional information on the impacts that are specific to each technology. They take into account the appraisals of sustainability. We have revised the AOSs for the non-nuclear NPSs substantially, which is why we are a carrying out a fresh consultation.
We believe that the revised appraisals put readers in a much better position to evaluate the revised draft NPSs. The revised AOSs give a clear picture of the likely significant impacts at the strategic level of consenting energy infrastructure projects in accordance with the NPSs, by reference to a wide range of relevant environmental, social and economic factors. They also explain more clearly why we have not chosen a number of alternative policies that others proposed, but which would not have been as good in meeting our overall objectives of maintaining safe, secure and affordable energy supplies while moving to a low carbon economy and reducing carbon emissions by 80% by 2050.
We have made significant changes to the statement of need in the overarching national policy statement. It now includes research that was not available for the first draft, including more detailed analysis of scenarios to achieve an 80% reduction in carbon emissions by 2050. We have also included more detail on what is required for an economic feasibility assessment to ensure that fossil fuel generating stations are carbon capture-ready.
Neil Carmichael
The NPS gives great support to those of us who support a green investment bank because it provides a framework for investment, which is necessary to the platform of support that investors might require. How important does the Minister think the green investment bank will be in delivering some of the outcomes?
Charles Hendry
The Government have committed £1 billion to the green investment bank, with additional funding to follow in due course. I am extremely pleased that the Environmental Audit Committee is to examine how the bank might work. Infrastructure banks in other countries—for example, the one in Holland, which was funded with €2 billion of initial capital, but brought in €100 billion of additional finance—can play a critical role, particularly in getting business through the so-called valley of death.
Returning to the technology-specific NPSs, we have revised the fossil fuels policy statement—document No. 2—to clarify the requirements for carbon capture readiness in terms of technical and economic feasibility in line with the request made by the Energy and Climate Change Committee.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
On carbon capture and storage, will new applications for gas-fired power stations be treated the same as applications for new coal-fired power stations in that they will have to be carbon capture-ready before they can be accepted at the planning stage?
Charles Hendry
A new coal plant will have to be equipped with some degree of carbon capture and storage capability—we have made it clear that there will be no role for unabated coal in the future—whereas a new gas plant will have to be carbon capture-ready, because of the much lower levels of emissions associated with modern gas plants. Emissions from the most efficient coal plant are perhaps 750 grams per kWh, whereas the figure for the most sophisticated gas plant is perhaps 350 grams per kWh. Given the significant difference in emission levels, we are looking at requiring CCS to be part of the programme. That is why we have allocated £1 billion, which is more than any Government anywhere in the world have allocated to a single plant. We are keen to take forward the development, but we have also said that as part of the subsequent pilot projects 2 to 4, we are keen to see whether that can be applied to gas.
Ian Lavery
The Minister said that £1 billion had been invested in the carbon capture and storage programme. There were four initial demonstration plants, the first of which is to be a coal-fired demonstration plant. The contract will be awarded, I believe, in December 2011. Will that not take most of the £1 billion? If so, is he confident that moneys will be available to secure the phase 2, 3 and 4 carbon capture and storage projects?
Charles Hendry
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The £1 billion is specifically and only for that project. As I said, that is more than any Government anywhere in the world have allocated to a single project. The additional plants will be funded either by the levy introduced in the Energy Act 2010, or from general taxation. We are looking at the best way forward in terms of deliverability and the Treasury is examining the issue. The funding of projects 2 to 4 is separate from the funding of project 1, which has the £1 billion available to it.
The revised renewables NPS has taken particular account of comments on biomass sustainability for generating stations using biomass as fuel. We have also revised the text regarding noise from onshore wind farms, which is different from general industrial noise, so a specific assessment methodology is used to take that into account.
The method of assessing noise from a wind farm is described in “The Assessment and Rating of Noise from Wind Farms”, known as ETSU-R-97. The report recommends noise limits that seek to protect the amenity of those living close to wind farms. The recommended noise levels are determined by a combination of absolute noise limits and noise limits relative to the existing background noise levels around the site at different wind speeds.
Policy document 4 relates to gas supply and oil pipelines. We have clarified that the gas supply infrastructure and gas and oil pipelines NPS covers only oil and natural gas pipelines and not CO2 pipelines, which will be an important matter in relation to carbon capture and storage development. We have also added a new section describing the impacts on gas emissions due to the flaring or venting of gas.
Policy paper 5 relates to electricity networks. We have tried to make sure that Government policy on undergrounding and the need to treat each application case by case is expressed more clearly. I welcome the decision by the Institute of Engineering and Technology to make an authoritative investigation of the costs of undergrounding, particularly in relation to the issues that the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) has raised, so that we can have a clear fact-based assessment of the different costs involved.
Tessa Munt
Thank you. Will that investigation examine the cost of under-sea infrastructure as well? I understand that the project will look at networks not just underground, but under-sea. Is that correct?
Charles Hendry
That is my understanding of the report. We are all keen to have a fact-based scientific assessment of the relative costs. I know that in the hon. Lady’s constituency and many others there has been great concern and a need to know the costs of different ways of dealing with the issues, so I hope the report will examine the under-sea aspects as well.
Dr Coffey
Thank you. We do indeed have issues in East Anglia, and in Suffolk in particular. We have an enormous number of offshore wind farms, yet the green impact of pylons across our countryside is hardly palatable. I welcome the changes being made, and hope that we will have more detailed calculations of the costs and the impact of the benefits.
Charles Hendry
I shall give way again to the hon. Member for Wells and deal with both issues together.
Tessa Munt
How can I and my constituents be assured that the study is wholly independent and is not in any way informed or directed by National Grid?
Charles Hendry
I would hope that the nature of the Institute of Engineering and Technology, and its track record for independence and fact-based assessment, would be sufficient to assure everyone that a thorough approach will be taken. There is no doubt in any of our minds that if anybody tried to steer its conclusions one way or the other it would publicly require them to go away. I am absolutely satisfied that the process will be independent and robust, but in due course the institute will publish the full report so that it can be peer-reviewed.
Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)
Before the hon. Gentleman leaves EN-5, will he reflect on the question that he raised previously about investment in new infrastructure through the electricity markets as they stood, and the extent to which that investment stayed in existing equipment to shore up the electricity market? In the new circumstances, where investment in infrastructure will increasingly be required before the replacement of plant, will EN-5 reflect that change fully? If not, could the energy market reforms that he will undertake shortly inform a revision of EN-5 to take those new circumstances into account?
Charles Hendry
We have to see the national policy statements as part of the process. They are an integral part of an improved planning process, but they are not the full package. Electricity market reform will also be a key element in incentivising people to invest. Let me give an example of how things are changing. I was recently with Ofgem launching the second round of offshore grid transmission infrastructure bids. More than 100 different organisations, most of which were new players in this area, were keen to take part in that process, which was started by the previous Administration. A number of new organisations—new financial institutions—want to invest in our energy infrastructure, which is extremely encouraging, but to see the full package of these measures it will be necessary to ensure that they see the planning changes and the funding mechanisms that will drive it forward.
Charles Hendry
I shall take a couple of interventions and then seek to conclude my remarks.
Andrew Percy
While we are on the subject of new players coming into our energy industry, I invite the Minister to visit north Lincolnshire and the site of the South Humber Gateway project, where we hope to cluster a number of offshore wind farm manufacturers with the potential to create 5,000 jobs initially, possibly rising to 20,000. It will be incredibly important to our region, so I invite the Minister to join me and my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) on a visit some time soon.
Charles Hendry
I know that both my hon. Friends have done sterling work in pushing the case for the South Humber Gateway. I would be delighted to see the planned work to get a clearer understanding of the ambition. It is typical of many of the ambitions of people who see a fantastic new opportunity emerging in the energy sector, and we are keen to encourage that. I imagine that my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) will make a similar plea for a visit.
Charlie Elphicke
I do not wish to trouble the Minister to come down to east Kent, but for the benefit of the House will he say how many power stations were brought into operation during the last Parliament? The only one that we in Kent can recall is the dirty Kingsnorth power station. On the need for more funding and the need to build infrastructure and green infrastructure, I recall that during the last Parliament not many power stations were brought on line.
Charles Hendry
A number of gas powered plants were brought on stream. The last nuclear power station was Sizewell in the 1990s. There has not been a new clean coal plant yet because people need to know how the carbon abatement technology will move forward. Gas has been the fuel of choice: 60% of the consented plant—12 out of 20 GW—is gas. What people want to build remains to be seen, but there is significant interest. We now need the policies to drive this forward.
I want rapidly to conclude my remarks with a few additional points—
Charles Hendry
An enormous number of colleagues are keen to speak in the debate, but with your forbearance, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will allow my hon. Friend to intervene as he is a member of the Select Committee.
Christopher Pincher
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for being so generous. May I take him back to his earlier remarks about energy security and how the national policy statements will feed into our energy security? Energy security not only relates to the Department of Energy and Climate Change, but has an impact on the Ministry of Defence, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Department for International Development and the Department for Transport. How do the threads in our national policy statements interweave to ensure that across all those Departments we have a holistic approach to energy security?
Charles Hendry
One thing that has struck and impressed me most as an incoming Minister has been the extent to which Departments work constructively together, with information shared appropriately and buy-in from every Department on policy proposals. My Department clearly leads on the energy market and the Treasury is critically involved in setting a carbon price, which we believe is part of the process, but there is a holistic approach and investors are looking at that to make sure that there is joined-up government.
I want to close, so perhaps I can respond in my winding-up speech to any additional points about the exact way in which we will take the process forward. Having spoken for the best part of an hour, I feel that many hon. Members on both sides of the House will wish to have a chance to contribute fully to the debate.
In conclusion, our reforms of the major infrastructure planning process will ensure much greater democratic accountability. Ministers will be responsible for decisions to consent to or refuse major infrastructure development, and there will be a binding vote in the House on whether to approve national policy statements. Our debate today is about whether the House has considered the matter of the draft energy national policy statements, and I look forward to listening to it and having the chance to hear the expertise that so many hon. Members have to offer.
Huw Irranca-Davies
The ball is now firmly in the court of the Minister. There is an issue with the urgency and delivery of some the Government’s ambitions that we share. They must get on with it.
Rather than take further interventions, I will get into the nitty-gritty. Some of my questions for the Minister arise from his appearance yesterday before the Energy and Climate Change Committee, which, as usual, did a very good job.
When we return to this matter with the finished articles in front of us—the final, beautifully honed, polished NPSs—will we be afforded adequate time? Will each national policy statement have adequate, separate parliamentary time in line with the coalition Government’s stated aim of enhancing parliamentary scrutiny of NPSs in their planning reforms, or will they be mixed together like a bag of all-sorts? If the coalition Government are true to their aims, the Minister should help us through the usual channels to push for days, not hours, to debate the NPSs. Much as we dearly love the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government—we may ask who would not do so, when he is described on the front page of his website as “an absolute star” and a “saintly figure”, among other less self-effacing and more humorous things—when it comes to debating energy NPSs, we want the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), or the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change. We want them—no one else will do. Can the Minister guarantee that he and his DECC colleagues will not be squeezed out of their seats by the right hon. and saintly Member for Brentwood and Ongar?
In the coalition’s drive for parliamentary scrutiny, I am sure that the Minister will be able to confirm today that there will be a separate vote on each NPS, having been unable to confirm it yesterday to the Energy and Climate Change Committee. To mix the nuclear issue with those of fossil fuels, renewables, pipelines and the electricity network infrastructure would tax the wit of Wilde and the wisdom of Solomon. For us mere mortals, will he make representations through the usual channels to ensure that the votes are separate?
Will the Minister explain to the House why he has set against the calls to make an NPS amendable? We understand that there will be a take-it-or-leave-it vote. It would be interesting to hear the justification for taking scrutiny so far but no further. He might have a very strong rationale for that position, such as wanting to avoid the unpicking of an NPS that has been through exhaustive consultation, but we need to hear it.
There is a more fundamental point to be made about the parliamentary scrutiny of the NPSs, which goes to the very heart of the planning reforms that the Government are developing. The argument advanced by the coalition is that democratic accountability is best assured by laying the NPSs in front of the House and making a Minister, hopefully this Minister, answerable for them. In fact, he said back in June:
“A fast and efficient planning system is critical for facilitating investment in much needed new energy infrastructure. By abolishing the Infrastructure Planning Commission we will ensure that vital energy planning decisions are democratically accountable.”
His colleague the Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), went further, saying:
“Today the coalition is remedying those deficiencies by putting in place a new fast track process where the people’s elected representatives have responsibility for the final decisions about Britain’s future instead of unelected commissioners.”
Yet we understand that for the Minister, the consideration of the NPSs is a quasi-judicial decision. He has described it as such. Ministers, formerly myself included, are used to making quasi-judicial decisions and are made aware of the very strict limitations that bind them. His decision is strictly limited, involves the application of policy to a particular set of facts and requires the exercise of discretion and the application of the principles of natural justice. It is not a prescription for localism, political interference or ministerial hokey-cokey. It is about policy and facts.
May we safely assume that the NPSs, once presented to the House by the Minister in January, will be a fait accompli? May we assume that he will have satisfied himself, in a quasi-judicial role, that the NPSs presented are fit for purpose? He will listen to fellow MPs, but his mind will be made up. On that basis, will he tell us, first, what is the point of putting the NPSs to the House if they represent his full and final view? Secondly, if he has a mind to amend them, what specific examples can he give that would cause him to change his quasi-judicial view and alter the documents, and what further time delay would ensue?
Charles Hendry
I hesitate to intervene on the hon. Gentleman after my own comments went on for quite a while, but I wonder whether I can provide clarity on that issue now. The quasi-judicial aspect relates to a ministerial decision on a planning application, not to the approach taken to the national policy statements themselves. We are in the course of a three-month consultation, which will finish on 24 January. There will quite possibly be amendments to the NPSs after that, which will be in the final version put before the House for debate, assessment and a vote. We do not have a quasi-judicial capacity in that respect. My comments about acting in a quasi-judicial capacity related to ministerial decision making on individual planning applications under the rules set out in the NPSs.
Huw Irranca-Davies
I thank the Minister for that intervention, but will he clarify two things? Has he just said that NPSs will be amendable on the Floor of the House. He will sign off and present NPSs to the House, but will he sign them in a quasi-judicial role, or will he perform such a role only in respect of individual planning applications?
Charles Hendry
There is confusion between the approval process for NPSs and the role that Ministers will take in respect of individual planning decisions when the IPC has been abolished. On individual planning decisions, Ministers will act in a quasi-judicial capacity, but on NPSs, a revised consultation period to take account of the initial representations—we felt that improvements needed to be made—will end in January. If further revisions are necessary, a document will be put to the House for its final consideration and approval.
Huw Irranca-Davies
Is the Minister suggesting that the final document will be amendable and subject to a decision by the House, as I think I heard him say from a sedentary position? It would be helpful if he could clarify that, because we are talking about significant decisions over the future energy needs of this country. It is important that the House knows whether it is voting on a batch of NPSs or on each one individually and for how long they will be debated. It is also important that the House knows whether it has the ability to amend NPSs. If so, would that cause delays? My assumption is that if the House changes any individual NPS, it will need further consideration and possibly consultation. The Minister’s officials would certainly become involved, and relevant stakeholders would need to be consulted. There would be a minimum of 13 weeks’ consultation, as recommended by civil service guidelines, but possibly a heck of a lot more. It would be helpful to get some clarity on those issues before we debate NPSs.
Charles Hendry
We have had a good debate. It has been brief, but it is part of the process, not the end, and there will be further opportunities to discuss the issues at length when the House returns in the new year. We have had a very good mix, involving national interest and a great tour of the energy opportunities horizon in the constituencies of many Members on both sides of the House. One of the most encouraging outcomes of the debate is the recognition that, throughout the country, people are looking at how we can generate electricity in a new way. Where are the new opportunities? The hot rocks in Cornwall and the cold rocks in Yorkshire—the great opportunities that we find around us—are something that we should truly celebrate as we look at the issue.
The hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), who speaks for the Opposition on these matters, talked about who should take the credit, Labour Ministers or Conservative Ministers? I do not think it should be any of us, because it should be our incredibly hard-working officials, who have done almost all the work in getting us to our current position and an outstandingly good job on a very complex set of documents.
The hon. Gentleman talked about the delay. We wish that there had not been one, but we recognised that in the previous draft statement there was a flaw in the appraisal of sustainability, and we felt it right to re-interpret that in order to make it stronger and clearer. Because that was so fundamental and in the overarching national policy statement, it seemed right that we should re-consult on all the statements, and it has been absolutely the right way to take the matter forward.
On the question of how the process will move forward, we have assumed that there will be a debate about the national policy statements overall and, at the end of the day, votes on the individual statements, but we do not anticipate the scope for hundreds of amendments to them. We have changed the previous Government’s decision that there would be no vote at all, because we believe it important that, as part of this democratic process, the House should have the chance to vote on them.
The hon. Gentleman asked also about the role of localism. There is a difference between the nationally critical strategic infrastructure, which we deal with in the national policy statements, and the local agenda, where we believe that local authorities should have significantly more power when deciding on the issues that come to them below the 50 MW. Of course, the views of local people, directly and through their local authorities, will be an integral part of individual planning applications, and they will be heard.
I shall pick up on some of the other points that have been raised during the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) talked about Dungeness, and from our conversations and his consistent representations, I understand where he is coming from. We recognise that the development of a new nuclear power station at Dungeness would be a continued source of employment and bring economic benefits to the surrounding area, but the Government are obliged by law to consider adverse affects on the integrity of European-protected sites which might be caused by development and to consider alternative sites if those impacts cannot be mitigated.
Dungeness is not on the NPS, because we have not yet been persuaded that a new nuclear power station could be built there without having adverse impacts on the integrity of the Dungeness special area of conservation, or that adverse impacts could be avoided or mitigated. The Dungeness SAC is the most important shingle site in Europe, so after careful consideration of the representations made so far our view that Dungeness should be excluded has not changed. The consultation is continuing, and, if additional evidence that changes that conclusion emerges in the course of the meeting that I will have with my hon. Friend and his local authority’s representatives, or in written submissions, we will take it into account.
The hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead), who speaks with such authority, raises several issues, but I shall focus on the role of gas. We see a need for gas, but part of the issue is that we have inherited a situation in which new nuclear cannot be built until the end of the decade, because its construction did not start earlier. Further, when it comes to the mass roll-out of renewables, we are third from bottom in the whole EU. We have great ambition but start from a long way behind. Carbon capture and storage on a major commercial scale cannot play a massive role until the end of the decade, although our ambitions for that are high.
Gas will therefore have to be part of the process; that is the simple, practical reality. Gas-powered stations can be built quickly; gas requires lower capital expenditure than other technologies, so the write-off period is lower; and importantly it is flexible, so it can back up other, more inherently variable technologies.
Of course, the issue of emissions will be critical. That is why we are taking forward the work on the carbon floor price and looking at emissions performance standards and the other measures that will be brought to bear, which investors will need to take into account as they make decisions on these critical investments. The time scale of that is now almost upon us. In the next few weeks, before Christmas, we will set out how the electricity market reform process will work.
My hon. Friends took me on a fascinating tour of the country. We heard about the nuclear opportunities in Gloucester and the great training opportunities at the Barnwood EDF facility. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) is absolutely right to talk about the skills agenda and the supply chain opportunities that we are determined to realise.
My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) focused on energy security and the issues surrounding the wave hub and deep geothermal resources. I look forward to visiting those facilities with her in due course. My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) talked about the supply chain and his concerns about power lines, which we completely understand.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) spoke about the Holford rules. We will reflect on the concerns that she expressed, but we must also have clarity about what benefit local areas will achieve from these new investments. That is at the heart of the localism Bill. Thinking about how local communities should benefit in terms of business rates and other direct benefits coming into their communities will completely transform the relationship between these facilities and the communities who host them. That will be an important element as we move forward.
The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) speaks with great authority on these issues, and the House benefits from his expertise. He is absolutely right that time is not on our side. The whole purpose of what we are trying to do is to remove the barriers to new investment in these areas. We are absolutely clear that there will be no public subsidy for new nuclear, but we must then remove the other potential barriers—the regulatory barriers—to ensure that that investment can go ahead. On carbon capture and storage, I can absolutely give him the assurance that we are looking to gas as part of the next projects. The market-sounding exercise showed a significant interest in gas, and we will therefore open up this competition to gas plants as well.
The hon. Gentleman talked about EMR and the cost of transmission. We have to look at this in a new way. People will not build power plants if they do not believe that they can get their power to market. Historically, power plants were built in the coal centres or outside the big industrial centres; now, we are looking at new places for them to be built. We have to look at this afresh, and I am delighted with the work that Ofgem is doing to look at the best structure for the process. I will leave others to deal with the issue of the location of the green investment bank.
Finally, I want to deal with some of the points made by the hon. Member for Ogmore. He mentioned “what if?” scenarios. He was right to do that, but we are in that “what if?” environment because of the situation that we inherited. After 13 years, we have to get £200 billion of new investment coming into the infrastructure. If more decisions had been made to take forward the role of nuclear and not to have the five-year moratorium, we would be significantly further advanced, and the challenging energy situation in the middle of this decade would not have applied in the same way.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) talked extremely clearly and effectively about the energy security needs that we have to address. It is possible that CCS may not work, or that the price may be too high, but if we do not push the process forward and take advantage of the extraordinary opportunities that we have in this country, we will always be followers and never be leaders. That is why we have been so keen to take forward that technology.
The hon. Member for Ogmore suggested that decentralised energy may be unable to deliver as much as we hope, and he may be right. However, we are right to try to look at what can be done locally, although we are doing it against the backdrop of how much more should have been done historically. In the end, this all comes back to the broad portfolio of policies that we are putting forward—the need to have clarity on national planning issues, which is exactly what these documents are about, and the need to have clarity on the market structure that will exist.
The hon. Gentleman talked almost as if EMR—the market reform process—was his own idea. Seven months ago, Labour Members were saying that there did not need to be a price on carbon, that there should not be an emissions performance standard, and that we did not need capacity payments. We are having to reinvent a market in order to take us forward and give us the security that we need. This is part of a package. I hope that he is in no doubt about our determination to achieve that and to drive it forward. Let me assure my hon. Friends and all hon. Members that we totally understand everything that needs to be done to drive forward investment in this area. We will take nothing for granted. Our goal is to make this the most attractive place in the world in which to invest in new energy infrastructure. We are determined to do that and we look for consensus and partnership to take it forward. This debate has been a constructive and important part of that process. I hope we can conclude that we have had a good debate on these issues—