Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 6th February 2023 Grand Committee

If we do this right, we will have credit unions, community banks and mutual regional bank networks. Through that mechanism, we can begin seriously to see an end to financial exclusion. For a Government looking for levelling up, that is surely critical, and for all of us, at a time of huge economic pressure, surely those kinds of mechanisms will be necessary to rebuild our economy.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak first to Amendments 55 and 241, tabled by my noble friend Lord Moylan, before turning to Amendments 67A, 75, 117 and 228, tabled by my noble friend Lord Holmes, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer.

On Amendments 55 and 241, I am happy to report that action is already being taken to reduce barriers for retail investors, while ensuring that appropriate consumer protection measures are in place. The Government are reforming the UK prospectus regime through the powers that are being legislated for as part of this Bill. These reforms will remove barriers to retail participation in equity and bond markets by removing the duplication and disincentives that exist in the current regime. Additionally, the reforms will require the FCA, as the responsible regulator, to have regard to the desirability of offers of securities being made to a wide range of investors when making rules in this area.

Separately, the Government appointed Freshfields’ partner Mark Austin to lead the secondary capital raising review and have accepted all his recommendations addressed to the Government. One of the objectives of the review was to promote retail shareholders’ inclusion in further issuances by listed companies. I assure my noble friend that this is not jam tomorrow; the reforms to the prospectus regime are set out in a draft statutory instrument published alongside the Edinburgh reforms. Taking that SI forward is part of the first-priority tranche of work that will happen once we have passed this legislation. We have a very clear plan.

The remaining amendments in this group relate to promoting financial inclusion through a different lens from that put forward by my noble friend. The Government seek to ensure that people, regardless of their background or income, have access to useful and affordable financial products and services. We work closely with regulators and stakeholders from the public, private and third sectors to improve people’s access to useful and affordable financial services, and we are taking a significant step to protect the most vulnerable by legislating to protect access to cash through this Bill—something noted by my noble friend Lord Trenchard and others.

Amendments 75 and 67A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and my noble friend Lord Holmes, respectively, seek to add financial inclusion to the FCA’s objectives. While I commend these amendments and agree with their intention, the FCA’s objectives are core to its functions and should not be changed lightly or without detailed consultation, given the complexity of, and the risk of unintended consequences for, the way financial services are regulated in the UK.

Where there are gaps in the market that mean that some consumers struggle to access appropriate financial products, it is right that the Government, not the regulator, take the lead on action to address them. The Government have done this by, for example, requiring major banks to provide basic bank accounts for those who might otherwise be unbanked.

The FCA plays an important role in supporting this work. In his evidence to the Public Bill Committee, Sheldon Mills, the executive director of consumers and competition at the FCA, highlighted the proactive approach that the FCA takes on this issue, in line with its existing objectives, working in partnership with Fair4All Finance and others, and using the FCA’s innovation labs to explore how innovation can promote financial inclusion.

Amendment 67A also highlights the important issue of the accessibility of financial services products. I know that my noble friend Lord Holmes is a champion of consumers in this area. I agree that it is important that this continues to be an area of focus for industry. I am pleased that UK Finance has been working closely with the Royal National Institute for the Blind to develop accessibility guidelines for touchscreen chip and pin devices, as well as an approved list of accessible card terminals. The Government’s Disability and Access Ambassador for the banking sector, Kathryn Townsend, is encouraging firms to drive a more consistent consumer experience, as well as continuing engagement with deaf advocacy groups to identify opportunities for improved accessibility. The Economic Secretary will shortly convene the next Financial Inclusion Policy Forum with senior representatives from across financial services and the third sector, which will include a discussion specifically on accessibility in financial services. I hope that this provides reassurance that the Government are taking this issue seriously.

Amendment 67A raises financial literacy. My noble friend is right to recognise the importance of financial literacy, and financial education forms part of a broad and balanced school curriculum. However, it is the Government’s view that delivery of financial literacy in primary and secondary settings is a matter for government, rather than for the financial services regulator.

The amendment refers to digital inclusion, an issue also raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross. Again, we absolutely recognise that digital skills and access to technology are increasingly required to take full advantage of services made available by financial services providers. Some examples of action in this space are that the DCMS has negotiated a range of high-quality, low-cost broadband and mobile social tariffs for those in receipt of universal credit and other means-tested benefits. Libraries are also a key focus, able to serve as an alternative point of internet access with in-person support. The digital entitlement allows for adults with no or low digital skills to study for new essential digital skills qualifications for free. There are also banks and financial services providers taking their own action to promote digital skills with their customers.

Amendments 67A and 117 would require the FCA to report on financial inclusion, but that would largely duplicate existing publications, including the FCA’s annual reports, its comprehensive Financial Lives Survey, and the Government’s financial inclusion report, which details joint work with the FCA to promote financial inclusion. On digital inclusion specifically, Ofcom’s latest data on digital equality was published on 30 January.

Finally, I turn to Amendment 228, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. While I sympathise with the intention of the amendment—and I hope that I have set out some of the ways in which the Government are seeking to tackle some of the issues that the noble Baroness raised today—it has the potential for unintended consequences which could harm consumers. As part of the authorisation process, the regulators already take into account a range of different objectives, such as promoting effective competition in the interests of consumers, including those in low-income communities. Adding additional complexity to the process of acquiring a banking licence could create barriers to entry and therefore harm the consumers we are trying to help by reducing the provision of services in the market and limiting competition.

As I have noted already, there are other policies in place which will do this without creating potentially burdensome expectations, particularly on new entrants to the market—for example, through the provision of basic bank accounts. We have also taken action to increase the provision of affordable credit for vulnerable consumers, including those on low incomes, such as providing £3.8 million of funding to pilot a no-interest loan scheme.

I hope that I have set out for noble Lords the wide-ranging government work on the issue of financial inclusion—

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, it is obvious that there is a problem, because virtually everybody has spoken to a problem and said that it must be addressed. It seems to me that the speech the Minister just made was that it is all right, because all these things that the Government are going to do will make it all right. The beauty of the amendments that have been put forward is that somebody is expected to do something. If government has such an important role, who in government will be personally responsible for delivering the improvement that we all seek?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

In government, the Financial Inclusion Policy Forum is jointly chaired by my honourable friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury and a Minister from the DWP; I will confirm who to noble Lords, because I would not want to get it wrong. That is the forum by which the Government drive the work and bring other actors into this space to co-ordinate on issues.

We recognise financial exclusion and the need to promote financial inclusion as an important area of policy work. We recognise some of the gaps raised today. I would point noble Lords towards progress that is being made in some areas.

We have also heard today about a changing landscape and how we will need to continue our work to keep up with it. As use of cash changes, we are legislating to protect access to cash, but we also need to consider how we can promote digital inclusion, so that, as services move online, people can access them in the same way as they have been able to previously.

The point of difference is not whether there is a problem but whether it is for the Government to lead on co-ordinating the response to that programme, with an important role for the regulators, or whether it is the regulators that should have more emphasis on driving this work.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

Can I put in a real request to the Minister? I understand that she is keeping to her brief, but could she get back to the department and tell it that it is time to do something about this, not just to have endless meetings, gatherings, reports, reviews or pieces of minor tinkering at the corners about it? This needs a driven central initiative. If she can answer me at all, can she take that on and go back to the department to tell it that it is time to do, not just to talk?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will absolutely take that back to the department, but I disagree with the noble Baroness that no action is happening on this issue. We talked about access to cash; that is being legislated for in the Bill. On access to low-cost finance, I have talked about the money that the Government have put in to pilot a programme of interest-free finance for those who are most vulnerable. We have talked about access to bank branches. I acknowledge that the initiatives on banking hubs have not been as fast as people would want, but they put forward a solution to an issue that we face. We agree that it is a common issue. I have given examples of what we are doing on digital inclusion. In a later group, we will discuss the importance of mental health. We have put in place the Breathing Space scheme for those who are in problem debt and have mental health problems.

Yes, there is a lot more action to take. I recognise the problem and I will take the noble Baroness’s words back to the department, but we are legislating on some measures in the Bill. I have set out very specific measures that we are taking in other areas. It does not mean that the job is done, but it does mean that action is happening.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate and for the support that has been given generally for the amendments tabled. It is true that one or two noble Lords have quibbled about the detail of particular proposals in the amendments, but I think there was universal support for the general principles underlying them.

It falls on me briefly to deal with the quibbles raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, because they were pointed directly at amendments in my name. First, he is right to say that over a period of 30 or 40 years there will be a large number of sociological and economic changes that might explain the appetite for different types of investment among the population at large, but surely he will accept that these are completely dwarfed and made irrelevant if the fact is that you are not allowed to purchase the investments in the first place. The object of the amendment here is to allow this to happen. If you have to put €100,000 on the table to buy a corporate bond, people are excluded in very large measure, and questions of their appetite for different types of risk simply do not arise. If there is routinely no retail element to a new issue of shares, retail investors will not be able to buy those shares, so that is that.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, also picked me up on what I meant by regulated investments. It is true that if the amendment were to come back on Report, it should perhaps be drafted more carefully to say, “investments traded in regulated markets”. I accept that it might have been infelicitously drafted but, to give a more substantive answer, perhaps one should take a more apophatic approach and define what non-regulated investments are. They are things such as betting, spread-betting, contracts for difference and mini-bonds.

The noble Lord is concerned that putting your money into highly rated shares, corporate bonds or gilts might be a little risky and inappropriate for somebody setting aside money for the future, but he has not tabled the amendment that I would hope to see in that case that would have prevented them investing in all these different products, which are there freely available and which people invest in. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, pointed out, the mini-bond crisis was about perfectly respectable people believing that they were investing in something that looked like a bond, when it was not at all, for a return that appeared attractive. If we do nothing for them and allow that, why are we worried about them investing in real bonds?

Finally, there is the question of whether by agreeing such an objective for the regulators they would in effect be giving advice. I simply refute that: to remove a barrier to investment is not to give advice. I do not know where the noble Lord keeps his money for a rainy day. Perhaps it is all in a savings account somewhere, but I would encourage him to think a little more broadly and to look upon various safe and regular opportunities that would be available to him for his spare cash if he were to swing in behind this amendment. I am sure he would benefit in many ways from that.

I turn briefly to the remarks of my noble friend the Minister. I am grateful to her for the encouragement she has given and will look carefully at what she has said. I am still not wholly persuaded that proceeding on the basis of the Treasury’s current work, rather than by way of legislation, is entirely the best way. I will consider whether these amendments, or one of them, might come back on Report.

On the broader question of the financial inclusion of people who are marginalised by the financial system—I hope I am not presuming too much if I speak for the Committee at large—my noble friend might want to reflect a little further on whether a process of engagement with noble Lords on all sides of the Committee who have brought these issues up would be beneficial between now and the issue returning on Report. I know that it is not in her personal nature to sound negative and unwelcoming, but her speech had that tone of saying that everything was a little too complicated and might have an unintended consequence. Well, anything might have an unintended consequence; by definition, one would not know. I wonder whether she might consider some process of engagement on the issue, because I think the feeling around the Committee is quite strong. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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In 2022, the FCA’s fines exceeded £215 million. That is not vast, but it could make a big difference to the capacity to regulate and enforce in this area. In 2021 the fines amounted to £568 million. Again, there would be real sources of funds. I have not looked at fines from other areas of financial services enforcement. Would the Minister consider such an approach and ask if that money could be dedicated and fed back into the system? It is easy to see that one could create a virtuous circle of funding action which then enables more action to be taken and in turn funds more action. I think the United States enforcement service is now a profit centre. It is not only able to fund everything that it does but able to pass additional funds that it does not need to the Treasury. It is an extraordinary situation, but there is no reason we cannot replicate it and have something similar here.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I will first cover Amendments 67, 71, 73 and 214 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. The question of the FCA’s powers on fraud has been raised before in this Committee, as noted. Before I address the detail of the amendments, it may be helpful if I set out for the Committee the FCA’s role under FSMA in relation to fraud. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked me specifically about this last Monday. I will write, but I thought it might also be useful to set it out in the context of these amendments.

Although FSMA does not provide the FCA with an express power to prosecute fraud, it is able to prosecute fraud if it furthers its statutory objectives. If fraud is committed by an authorised firm in the course of a regulated activity, or if it carries out a regulated activity without the correct authorisations, the FCA will be able to take action against the firm on the basis of a breach of the FCA’s rules or other FSMA requirements. If a senior manager within the firm is responsible for the fraud or has culpably failed to prevent one occurring within the area of their responsibility, the FCA can take action against that firm and senior manager.

Where a firm is authorised for one activity, but is also carrying out an unregulated activity, FCA powers in relation to the unregulated activity will depend on the specific details of the case. In the case of a serious fraud, the FCA is able to take action, including on the basis that the firm or the senior manager is not fit and proper. If a firm provides regulated products or services without being authorised, unless exempt, it may be carrying on unauthorised business in contravention of the “general prohibition” in Section 19 of FSMA.

The FCA does not have powers to investigate a firm that is unauthorised and not carrying out any regulated activities unless, for example, that unauthorised person is carrying out market abuse—where the FCA has a specific role. In these circumstances, where problems fall outside the FCA’s statutory remit, the FCA assists other agencies and regulators wherever it can. That is important context for the noble Baroness’s amendments.

As I said last week, the Government take the issue of fraud very seriously. I repeat the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that the prevention of fraud is a cross-cutting policy that requires a unified and co-ordinated response from many stakeholders. However, I acknowledge that the financial regulators, including the FCA, play a critical role in that, but many levers for change also sit elsewhere.

The Government’s view is that the FCA’s broad existing remit in relation to reducing and preventing financial crime, including fraud, allows it to take proactive steps to tackle fraud and wider financial crime, while driving a whole-system approach with relevant stakeholders. The FCA is an active and named agency in the national economic crime plan and the soon-to-be-published fraud strategy. Most crucially, the FCA and the PRA require regulated financial services firms to maintain effective systems and controls to prevent their being used to further financial crime, including fraud. In the first half of 2022, UK banks blocked over £580 million being stolen from customers. In its 2022-23 business plan, the FCA announced that it was developing its approach to supervision to include further oversight of firms’ anti-fraud systems and controls.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked about the number of vacancies in the FCA for those working on fraud. I will write to the Committee to provide that detail. Under the FCA’s existing remit, it is able to have a leading role in this important issue. It does not require further powers to pursue fraud, but I will come on to address other points raised in the Committee about what more must be done overall about fraud.

In respect of Amendment 214, as noted by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, the Government are currently assessing options presented by the Law Commission for strengthening the law on corporate criminal liability, including for fraud. This includes committing to address the need for a new offence of failure to prevent fraud through the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill. I note the differences highlighted by the noble Baroness, but the Government believe that that Bill is the right approach and vehicle for dealing with the failure to prevent offence.

Amendments 209, 210 and 211, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and Lord Davies of Brixton, respectively, relate to a national financial fraud strategy. As I have said, the Home Office will shortly publish a new strategy that will set out the Government’s plan on fraud, including fraud prevention, consumer protection and criminal prosecution. I am afraid that I did not read the Sunday papers as closely as other noble Lords, but I hear, understand and note the great interest in the strategy from this Committee and a desire to see it published as soon as possible. I reassure noble Lords that that continues to be a key priority for the Home Office, which is working closely with the Treasury and other government departments to make sure that we get it right.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. As part of this work, are the Government looking at the costs to the various statutory agencies of pursuing fraud? The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, raised the example of the cost to Thames Valley Police—I think—of a prosecution, which on their budget was enormous. The fine was substantial, but there seemed to be no way of compensating the police for those costs. Can the Minister say whether that will be looked at within the strategy?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

Funding is of course an important part of any strategy, and I have set out to noble Lords previously the increased funding that has gone to the specific issue of tackling fraud. I will turn to the specific proposal from the noble Baroness a little later, but I understand the point about not just the amount of funding but the incentives that different approaches can create.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and other noble Lords talked about the devastating personal costs that fraud can have and the societal costs that having high levels of fraud in our society can bring. I agree with noble Lords on that. The noble Lord spoke about compensation not overshadowing the need for investigation and prosecution, and I also agree with that. Those considerations are all being taken forward through the strategy.

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[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

I am encouraged by the Minister’s determination to tackle fraud. Can she answer the three specific questions I asked? First, can she give us a commitment that a copy of the Sandstorm report in relation to BCCI, which is now more than 30 years old, will be placed in the Library of this House? Secondly, can she make a statement now or come to the House soon to tell us why the Government covered up criminal conduct by HSBC in the US and how many other instances there are of that kind of cover-up?

Thirdly, in this country we have virtually eliminated the risk of bankruptcy for major banks and insurance companies. That then raises questions about the pressure points on directors to behave and act honourably. Fines are fairly puny and have not made much of a difference. Personal prosecutions of directors of banks hardly ever take place, and neither do they face any personal fines. Can the Minister explain what the pressure points are on the directors of major financial institutions to act with honesty and integrity?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am afraid I will not be able to address the noble Lord’s first two points, but I will happily write to him. On his third point, I referred to the fact that, as part of the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill, we are looking to take forward the issue of corporate criminal liability and the offence of failure to prevent fraud, which would strengthen action in the areas he talks about.

I was talking about our work with other sectors. My noble friend Lord Northbrook and the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, raised the issue of online fraud. There is an intention to bring forward a tech sector charter with industry, to include public and private actions to drive down fraud in this area. Of course, fraud has been brought into the scope of the Online Safety Bill to better protect the public from online scams through, among other measures, a new stand-alone duty requiring large internet firms to tackle fraudulent advertising, including that of financial services.

The Government also recognise the particularly devastating impact that fraud can have on the elderly and the most vulnerable people in society and on people’s mental health. They have taken various steps, including banning cold calls from personal injury firms and pension providers and supporting National Trading Standards to improve the quality of care available to vulnerable fraud victims. More broadly, the FCA’s guidance on vulnerability explores how firms can understand the needs of vulnerable customers. This includes those who are older or have mental health conditions and sets out how the sector can provide targeted services for this cohort, including in the context of fraud. Where firms fail to meet their obligations to treat customers fairly, the FCA will take further action. I hope noble Lords are assured that further work is being taken forward on data sharing and on supporting older people and those with mental health conditions who are victims of financial fraud.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, mentioned measures in the Online Safety Bill, as have I. I have also mentioned the measures in the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill and revisions to the Data Protection Act. I am cognisant of the need to ensure that this work is well co-ordinated and that the progress we are making in other Bills is co-ordinated with the work we are doing on this issue more generally.

I turn finally to Amendment 217. Currently, the proceeds of such fines imposed by the courts must, by law, be paid—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister again, but her comments have prompted a thought. Many of us are trying to cover, albeit not always successfully, three or four different Bills that are running through your Lordships’ House with slightly similar amendments around this issue of financial fraud. I do not know whether it would be possible for the Ministers dealing with all these Bills to come together at some point for a more general discussion; it might make this easier for us all. The Minister will know that these debates are going to be repeated on a number of occasions.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will absolutely take away the noble Lord’s suggestion. I cannot speak for others but I would be happy to engage further on this before Report, drawing on the other strands of government work; I agree with the noble Lord that it might be useful to have other Ministers there too. I recognise that the other Bills are not as far along as this one is, so we will not be able to pre-empt some of that work, but I think we can co-ordinate it for noble Lords if that would be helpful.

Finally, I was dealing with Amendment 217 and noting that, by law, income from fines imposed by the courts needs to be paid into the consolidated fund. That income is not ring-fenced but is used towards general government expenditure on public services. The Government agree that it is important for bodies responsible for investigating and prosecuting fraud to be appropriately resourced to discharge their responsibility. The NCA’s budget is made up of a number of different funding streams. That budget has increased every year since 2019-20 and, as part of the 2021 spending review, it was allocated a settlement of more than £810 million. This represents an uplift of approximately 14%, or £100 million, compared with the previous spending review. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked me a few more specific questions beneath those headline figures; perhaps I can write to her and the Committee with that information.

The FCA and the PRA are operationally independent regulators funded by a levy on the firms they regulate. I would like to reassure the noble Baroness that the regulators already have the power to ensure that they are resourced appropriately, without the need to divert funds away from general government expenditure. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I recognise the important principle behind this amendment—that consideration should be given to how the proceeds of fines can support the costs of enforcement activity.

[Lord Northbrook (Con)]

Can the Minister address the point about Thames Valley Police not being reimbursed for the £7 million it spent, which has discouraged other police forces from carrying out those sorts of investigations? Will there be any sort of move to reimburse police forces investigating crimes of this sort?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I have heard the point and I acknowledge the principle that this amendment seeks to explore in terms of those incentives, but I point to the NCA’s budget and the regulators’ budgets. We seek to ensure that enforcement agencies have the proper money available to them to take enforcement activity. I also point out that, while the funds currently go into general expenditure, that funding is spent on other public services, so it does not go unspent elsewhere.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

This point seems absolutely central to me. Unless police forces have either a strong negative or a strong positive incentive, they are not going to be bothered, if you like, to prosecute serious fraud crime. I do not know what the Government’s preference is, but it has to be one way or the other.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I have listened very carefully to the debate, and I see the point that noble Lords are making. This operates in other areas of government—there is the Proceeds of Crime Act and how that operates—but I slightly counter leaning too heavily into the fact that the police would have no incentive to investigate serious organised crime unless the costs of the investigation and the prosecution are reimbursed to them. Their fundamental role is to investigate and prosecute crime. I understand that there is a complex landscape when it comes to investigating and prosecuting fraud, and that is something that the Government have tried to tackle with the establishment of the economic crime command at the NCA—but it is ongoing work for us. The challenge before me today is that the funding that comes from these fines currently goes to the consolidated fund and is spent elsewhere on public services, so any change of this nature would have implications that go—

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

If the Minister is able to persuade the Treasury or the Government to look again at this issue, can she make the point that, if you can get much more activity from the police forces on pursuing fraud, you end up with much more coming in in fines? To look at the US example, it makes far more money out of financial crime because it prosecutes financial crime far more extensively.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I absolutely note the noble Baroness’s point. That same principle has informed our approach to proceeds under the Proceeds of Crime Act, so this has happened elsewhere in Government.

I was going to note that, previously, the FSA was able to keep all the income it took from penalties and use it to subsidise the levy it charged on the firms it regulated. That was changed because, when the regulators took a large amount of money from those they had fined, they reduced the charges they made on those firms. In thinking about these issues, we would want to avoid similar unintended consequences in the future.

I close by saying that I have heard noble Lords’ strength of feeling on this debate. As I said on the previous group, I am always open to meeting noble Lords to discuss issues further. We have different ways in which we think those issues can be tackled, but it is always right to see what more we can do. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, suggested perhaps having a co-ordinating meeting on fraud, particularly to cover the specific issues raised in the different Bills before your Lordships. I will endeavour to take that forward ahead of Report.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

Your Lordships will be pleased to know that I cannot possibly go through everything, yet again, that has been spoken about. I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. The Minister must have heard the concern from all sides of the Committee.

The only bit of good news that I can hang on to from what was said is that more work is being done on data sharing between banks. That is important. The list of roles of the FCA just proves that it does not have a great deal of power to do things within financial services in general. It can do things with regulated bodies, but that is very limited, as we discussed previously, so I will not go into it again. It can do things with bodies that are pretending to be regulated but are not, but we are for ever bashing up against this regulatory perimeter, one way or another. That just does not deal with fraud, because fraudsters are well aware of it and are going to use it.

We have tried to cover various different types of fraud. Fraud by and in financial services surely should be caught, even if it is by a regulated entity but in an unregulated area. The financial services regulator should still be able to prosecute the entity, not just through cases that deal with criminal matters which it can take; there should also be some regulatory approach. Then there is fraud in which financial services are the final vehicle. Financial services are in a special place because, ultimately, how can you monetise your fraud? You have to put it through a bank or somewhere else, no matter whether it was started or perhaps enabled by a telecoms company, online platform and so on. Ultimately, financial services firms have a special duty for extra vigilance, because that is where this all funnels down.

I agree that probably more has been done to capture these things in financial services than in some of the online platforms and telecoms companies. I will not go through the whole of the very thick fraud report, but there are issues in it that go across the piece. That is part of the problem. We have this complete alphabet soup of organisations that are supposed to be helping us address crime, and fraud in particular, in different ways. However, it is not well co-ordinated, and fraud falls between the gaps, and so it is with the financial services side of it.

One thing that was in the report from the Fraud Act committee was about engaging regulators more in the fight—that is, regulators in general—through having regulatory offences. Here, the imagination has to be used. We should not just pin down regulators to doing very small things within a tiny regulated bit, while everywhere else people can either get away with it or it has to go over to less specialised people to deal with. There are big holes, and we will have to come back to this.

At the bottom of it, there are issues around the funding. You will have to fund regulators more if they are to address fraud more. I do not see any harm in the recycling of fines. They should not be recycled so as to say “Right, now the levy is less”, but they could be recycled specifically for prosecutions. Given that you can turn a profit from them and that you are helping individuals who have had their money stolen, it is very bad if the Treasury does not look at that more favourably. Everybody is crying out for this, but we acknowledge that you have to have money to do it.

For now, I will obviously withdraw my amendment. However, we will have to come back on Report with one or two amendments aimed at furthering things, unless the Minister is able to persuade the rest of the Treasury that it needs to act in this area, as there would be ways in which it could ring-fence the financing and turn a net profit.

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, let me start by dealing directly with Amendment 76, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and spoken to by many other members of the Committee.

I assure noble Lords that, in coming to this debate, I took the time to remind myself of our debate on the then Financial Services Bill in 2021; it is either an advantage or disadvantage, depending on your perspective, that I participated at the time. It is worth going through what that Bill, now the Financial Services Act 2021, required. It required the FCA to consult on whether it should make rules requiring regulated financial services providers to owe a duty of care to consumers. It also set out that the consultation must include

“whether the FCA should make other provision in general rules about the level of care that must be provided to consumers by authorised persons, either instead of or in addition to a duty of care”.

The then Bill further set out that the consultation must be carried out by the end of 2021 and any new rules introduced, if considered appropriate, before 1 August 2022. The FCA publicly consulted on its consumer duty in May 2021 and again in December 2021, and issued its final consumer duty policy statement in July 2022. In its consultation, the FCA noted that its proposals met the requirements in the Financial Services Act 2021.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

I think the Minister said that the legislation, as it finally went through, gave the FCA the option of either a duty of care or something else. Did that imply that it could be much weaker than a duty of care—and did anybody signing up to it understand that?—or was there a sense that it might be done in a different way but would be equally as strong and effective as a duty of care?

[Lord Flight (Con)]

The other fundamental point is that it is not the law; it is a sort of quasi-law that does not have the same power as law.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

If I may, I will come on to address the noble Baroness’s point and the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, on why the FCA took the approach it did in selecting the consumer duty approach rather than a duty of care. It is the FCA’s view that it provides not a weaker response but a stronger one; I will set that out in more detail.

The consumer duty sets a higher and clearer standard of care that firms owe their customers than now, and includes a new principle requiring firms to act to deliver good outcomes for customers. It is a package of measures comprising an overarching principle, cross-cutting rules and four “outcome rules”. It is also accompanied by extensive guidance, as noble Lords have noted, to provide clarity for firms on what is expected from them.

The FCA developed the consumer duty following extensive consultation with a wide range of stakeholders, including consumer representatives. Noble Lords may be aware that, in its consumer duty consultations, the FCA specifically sought views on whether the new principle should instead require firms to act in customers’ best interests. On balance, the FCA concluded that requiring firms to act to deliver “good outcomes” was the most appropriate approach. The FCA explained that “good outcomes” best reflects the outcomes-focused nature of the consumer duty and underlines that firms should not focus simply on processes but on the impact of their actions on consumers. The FCA also noted concerns raised by some stakeholders that “best interests” language could be confused with a fiduciary duty or a policy that required the best outcome to be achieved for each consumer, potentially resulting in unintended consequences concerning the availability of products and services to some consumers.

I hope noble Lords are therefore assured that the FCA carefully considered the wording of its consumer duty in the manner proposed by Amendment 76 and concluded that a different approach would deliver better outcomes. As the UK’s independent conduct regulator for financial services, it is responsible for developing its rules independently of the Government.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked about the potential for the consumer duty to operate in the context of past problems. She highlighted the mis-selling of PPI and interest rate hedging products. As I said, the consumer duty sets clearer and higher standards for firms to follow, and that means clearer and higher standards for the FCA to supervise and enforce, which will enable the FCA to act more quickly and assertively where it identifies poor practice. However, within this system, even the best regulators doing everything right will not be able to, and cannot be expected to, ensure a zero-failure regime.

In respect of the two specific cases of PPI and interest rate hedging products, the Government have always been clear that mis-selling financial products is unacceptable. That is why we supported unequivocally the FCA’s work on PPI to ensure that consumers who were mis-sold PPI receive appropriate redress, and the review process into the mis-selling of interest rate hedging products, which saw over £2.2 billion of redress being paid out to almost 14,000 businesses.

[Lord Sharkey (LD)]

Before the Minister moves on, what are her views on the point I made about “reasonable expectations” for consumers, which is the standard required by firms to comply with the terms of the new consumer duty? The Minister will have heard the historical criticisms of the notion of reasonable expectations for consumers. How would she feel about having this concept at the heart of this new duty?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord gave other examples of the concept in the past, but it is important to root it in this particular context. Perhaps I can write to the Committee to expand on that point.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

Can I ask the Minister to follow up seriously on this? The reasonable expectation point matters so much. If it is a case only of outcomes, but that is then qualified by reasonable expectations, the reasonable expectations provide a complete out for PPI, interest rate swaps or virtually anything else that we see. The core concept of the consumer duty is that somebody has to be behaving outside the norm within the industry. The problem is that the norm within the industry was abusive.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The points that I gave in reply to the noble Baroness’s specific question on PPI and interest rate hedging products were in the context of the consumer duty as written, with the reasonable expectations provision in there. However, of course I take seriously the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and I will write to the Committee to further expand on that.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

My recollection from the passage of the 2021 Act was that the final wording was government wording, put in as a concession to amendments from my noble friend Lord Sharkey. The government amendment said that a duty of care, or variations thereof, could be consulted on. Was it the Treasury’s, or the Minister’s, expectation at the time that it would be severely diluted? Was that the point of those extra bits?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I think I said directly what was required of the FCA, and the FCA has fulfilled its obligations under that Act. Furthermore, the FCA is not of the view that it has diluted the approach; it has taken a different approach from the duty of care. I have attempted to set out some of the reasoning and thinking behind the approach it has chosen to take versus the alternatives that were put to it. I am happy to write further.

[Lord Sharkey (LD)]

I am afraid to say that I am not sure I take much comfort from the FCA saying that it is right. Mandy Rice-Davies would know how to deal with that. My next question is about the lack of redress provided by the new consumer duty.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

With apologies, the lack of redress is around the right to private action. I will come to that point and, when I have said my piece, the noble Lord can intervene, if it is not sufficient.

Amendment 231 from the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, is similar in intention and would introduce a statutory duty of care owed by authorised persons to consumers. Again, this proposal was considered by the FCA, and it sought views from stakeholders through its consultations. As noble Lords have noted, this issue has been under consideration for some time. In its 2019 feedback statement on a duty of care and potential alternative approaches, the FCA explained that most respondents, including industry stakeholders and a number of consumer groups, did not support a statutory duty of care. Of course, the two subsequent consultations were undertaken by the FCA in response to the amendment put down by Parliament and included in the Financial Services Act 2021.

The new consumer duty comes into force on 31 July for new and existing products. It represents a significant shift in regulatory expectations, and there is a large programme of work under way within the sector to implement it. It would be wrong to seek to replace it now or seek to duplicate it with an additional statutory duty of care before it has been given a chance to succeed.

Amendment 229, along with Amendment 76, seeks to attach a private right of action to the consumer duty. This is an issue that the FCA has considered and consulted on extensively as it developed the consumer duty.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

Could the Minister clarify something? If I buy a bar of chocolate, the producer owes me a duty of care and, if I get injured, I have a right of redress. If I buy financial services, why can I not have the same rights?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the concept of a duty of care in financial services may be different to the concept of a duty of care in other contexts. This was considered very carefully and consulted on by the FCA in 2019 and in 2021. It considered these questions and the issues we have discussed in the Committee today.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for giving way. On these consultations, did the financial services companies generally respond not wishing to have the right of redress? Were the consumer organisations in favour of it?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I do not have a breakdown of the different responses to the consultations. However, as I said, in its feedback statement on a previous consultation on the duty of care, the FCA noted that industry stakeholders did not support a statutory duty of care. It also noted that a number of consumer groups did not support a statutory duty of care. I can point back to when that was considered in 2019 as not being a single view from a single source of consultees.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

One is a number, as I was always taught when I was training as a patent attorney. It might mean that one consumer organisation did not agree, but the vast majority did.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Baroness has made her point.

I was turning to the private right of action, which was also consulted on by the FCA. It has concluded that it will not be beneficial at this time to introduce a private right of action, as it sees benefit in giving firms time to implement the significant changes that the duty entails without the threat of private action.

However, the FCA has committed to keeping this matter under review. The FCA has the power to introduce a private right of action through its rules, without the need for legislative change, if it considers it appropriate to do so in future. In addition, as noble Lords know, consumers will remain able to seek redress via the Financial Ombudsman Service where they believe a financial services firm has breached the consumer duty.