Storm Bert

Baroness Hayman of Ullock Excerpts

Tuesday 26th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating this Statement. Like others, I want to thank the services involved in rescuing those affected by Storm Bert and those who have helped with clearing up in the aftermath. They have done a great job. We have all seen on television the appalling damage that the deluge of filthy water causes to land, homes and town centres. It is heartbreaking not only for those who have had their homes flooded, but for businesses which have been destroyed as a result—they are struggling to come to terms with their life’s work being washed away.

The level of flooding was similar to that which occurred in the autumn in Valencia. Then, there appeared to have been little warning given, and no help either. In England we have excellent weather forecasts and advance notice is generally given. However, in some cases the notice was so short that those affected had no time to move their possessions or take avoiding action. In some areas no sandbags were available, and in others recently installed flood defences were ineffective in holding back the water. What plans do the Government have to improve early-warning systems ahead of flooding events?

The current eligibility criteria for flood relief and financial support are unhelpful for those living in rural areas. The more densely populated the area hit by overwhelming flooding, the more relief is given. The Frequently Flooded Allowance requires 10 properties within a community to be flooded in order to be eligible. The flood recovery framework is engaged only at the Minister’s discretion following severe flooding events. In the past this has required 50 properties to be flooded in a single area in order to be eligible. The Minister will be aware of these criteria. Many of the areas flooded on Monday had already been flooded twice this year. Can the Minister say whether the qualifying criteria for the Frequently Flooded Allowance and the flood recovery framework will be amended to allow more homeowners to be eligible for post-flooding support?

I turn now to the effect on the farming community. While I welcome the £60 million extra allocated earlier in the year to assist farmers whose land had been flooded, farms are now in a much more serious state. The Statement indicates that a further £50 million will be allocated to internal drainage boards. Can the Minister give any indication of what the criteria will be for the distribution of this £50 million? I note that this money will not be allocated until 2028. What is needed is help now.

I previously lived in Somerset, where the Levels were regularly flooded. What are the Government doing to recompense, on a regular basis, those farmers who play a role in accepting flood water so that more densely populated areas are protected? These farmers are not able to grow crops nor graze their stock while their land is submerged. Is there likely to be recognition for the valuable service these farmers provide? It is important to encourage farmers to instigate ways of storing water and institute schemes for flood prevention. I am sure the Minister and her colleagues are doing this, but I would be grateful for an update.

Finally, I hope the Minister will agree that the actions of the farmer who drove his tractor at speed through the centre of Tenbury Wells, which was already flooded, causing increased destruction to businesses and properties, did nothing for the reputation of the farming community. He should be identified and brought to book for his reprehensible actions.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Baroness Hayman of Ullock) (Lab)]

I thank noble Lords for their responses to the Statement and their questions. As other noble Lords have done, I pay tribute to all those who responded and supported communities affected by storm Bert. I offer our condolences in particular to the families who have lost a loved one.

Noble Lords asked about support for people during the flood event, and flood warnings were particularly mentioned. I know how this works as I live in a house that has been flooded. We get the Environment Agency’s flood warnings. In my experience, the service is good; the agency emails you, phones you and texts you. You usually get very good notice of any potential problems. But I understand that people were concerned that this time there was very short notice. My understanding is that the Environment Agency is looking into that to see whether there were issues with the timings in this case.

Going right back to the 2007 floods, much work has been done since then on collating information to inform regularly updated emergency plans and to look at the best way to facilitate a quick and efficient response. Clearly, this needs to be considered if local people feel that that did not happen in the best way it could have done.

Regarding how we are supporting the flood response in Wales, obviously it is a devolved matter, but I know that the Prime Minister spoke to the First Minister on Sunday regarding flood impacts and to offer support. The Welsh Government have reassured him that they have the situation under control. We are aware of the problems that certain communities in Wales are facing and we are there to support in any way we can.

The floods resilience task force was mentioned. That met for the first time in September. The idea is for it to set a new approach to preparing for flooding and working between national, regional and local government, including the devolved Administrations. The idea is for it to meet quarterly and consider both near-term resilience and preparedness. The next meeting will be in January and it will look at the situation we have just been facing. The important thing is for this to start to drive forward the actions we need to take to be best prepared for these events when they happen in future. Part of the January meeting will be looking at what happened, how we can move forward and how we can improve. It is a rolling programme of improvements.

One of the things is an agreement to share lessons learned across all tiers of government and with flood responders. We had an agreement from the meeting in September for Defra to write to all MPs, which has happened, in advance of winter, to provide advice on key flood preparedness messages for their constituents. That is one action that came out of the September meeting.

Farming was mentioned. The farming recovery fund—the £60 million from previous flooding—is being distributed to farmers. Payments for that started last week. In the investment programme, the amount of funding a project can attract depends on the damage it will avoid and the benefits it will deliver, with the impact on agricultural land included as part of the funding calculator. We are reviewing the existing funding formula to ensure that challenges facing businesses are adequately taken into account and we will of course be working with farmers to support recovery.

The noble Baroness mentioned the flood recovery framework. This is managed by the MHCLG, because it has a core package for business and community recovery support for the most severely affected areas, but the property flood resilience scheme is a Defra grant, which is managed and delivered via local authorities. They are traditionally activated alongside each other. Just to give a sense of scale, the property flood resilience grant scheme has been activated six times in the past, and on each of those occasions more than 2,000 properties were flooded across multiple authority areas. Again, you have to look at the scale of it, and the decision will be made on that basis.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, talked about the funding formula and eligibility for funding support. The floods funding framework was an inherited formula for allocating money for flood defences. We believe it to be outdated; it is something that as a shadow Minister I raised many times, because it concerned me that it did not take account of all situations—the frequency of flooding, for example. We are concerned that it slows down delivery and neglects more innovative approaches to flood management as it stands, such as nature-based solutions, as we discussed during the passage of the water Bill. Defra has announced a review of the partnership funding policy, which was a few days ago, and we intend to start a consultation on that in the new year. We want to ensure that the challenges facing businesses and rural and coastal communities are also properly considered and taken into account. Currently, we are looking at how we move forward with that.

The noble Baroness also asked about internal drainage boards and the distribution around allocations on that. She mentioned the fact that on 13 November we committed to provide the extra £50 million to internal drainage boards over the year and next year, to improve, repair or replace their flood-risk assets. The idea behind that investment is to put the internal drainage boards on a firm footing so they can deliver their vital role in flood and water management for years to come. As she rightly said, that builds on the £25 million that was provided to the internal drainage boards for storm recovery following the previous floods.

In previous debates, people have talked about surface water flooding. It is going to be incredibly important that we get this right, because it is not just about flooding from rivers and the sea and bursting barriers; it is also about how we manage surface water flooding. Internal drainage boards and the role of local authorities will be extremely important in that.

There is also the issue of the higher costs. The noble Baroness asked how we were going to distribute. Obviously, it is a very new allocation of funding and we have not gone into that detail. There are costs that need to be managed and we are working with the MHCLG to examine whether any changes are needed to the funding—because it really needs to deliver. But one thing that the Government are absolutely committed to is looking at existing flood defences. Many of the reports that have come out were about flood defences not doing what they should have done, and we know that maintenance of flood defences has been an issue. One thing that we have pledged to do is to look at that. I know that my honourable friend the Flooding Minister is extremely keen that we focus on ensuring that existing defences are fit for purpose, because they need to be as we move further into the winter; we know that serious storms are only likely to get worse. That is very much going to be part of our focus.

[Lord Swire (Con)]

Will the Minister convene a meeting of local authorities to discuss the issue of the concreting over of many driveways up and down the country? Often, the problem with surface water and local flooding is that the water has fewer and fewer places to run off.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that the more concrete there is, the harder it is. The water has to go somewhere, and this is the issue. You can never stop flooding; you can manage it the best way you can. I would be very happy to convene a meeting, although I am not sure whether I am the right person. Perhaps it should be MHCLG, because often this is a planning issue—or it could be a joint meeting. I am certainly very happy to explore that.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

My Lords, following up on that important question, are the Government aware that there are alternative surfaces and one does not need simply to put tarmac everywhere? For instance, Richmond Council, instead of putting great slabs of concrete on pavements, now puts down little bricks which interlace with one another. Not only do they look better and cope better with roots of trees, they allow water to soak through. Will the Government do what they can to make local authorities and others aware of this alternative to tarmac?

While I am on my feet, I shall ask another question. London itself, of course, is not immune from risk. It is, for the most part, low-lying. With a combination of increasingly heavy rains and rising sea levels, are the Government confident that in 10 years’ time, the Thames Barrier will still be fit for purpose?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

On the noble and right reverend Lord’s first question, I know exactly the surface he is talking about. Interesting, different and innovative things are coming forward that can help alleviate the kinds of problems around surface water drainage we have been talking about. It is not just about putting it in, it is about replacing it. In certain areas, there has been a trend for concreting over drives to put your car on, where before you had surfaces that would drain. It is a really important area we need to look at, and local authorities clearly have an important role to play.

On the noble and right reverend Lord’s other question, we need to look at this completely in the round and consider all aspects of how we move forward. There are no simple solutions to this.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

My Lords, I begin by expressing my condolences to the family and friends of the missing dog walker whose body was found after floodwaters hit the Conwy Valley over the weekend. I also express my appreciation of the work of the emergency services and those from the local community in the village of Trefriw who helped and supported them. Those of us who live in the Conwy Valley well understand the impacts of flooding and sympathise with those in the valleys of south Wales who suffered devastating floods this weekend after 80% of a month’s rain fell in less than 48 hours in the area.

The abiding image in the minds of many will be that of residents desperately trying to clear blocked drains in attempts to release the floodwaters. Is the Minister convinced that all funds allocated by the former Government have been utilised by the spending of local government and Natural Resources Wales in this area? How much of the promised new funding will be allocated to Wales?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

In response to the noble Baroness’s first question, clearly, these are devolved issues, so how the allocation works is a matter for the Welsh Government, but, as I mentioned earlier, we are working very closely with the First Minister and the Welsh Government to offer any support we possibly can. I do not have the specific details of the formula, but we are working very closely with the Welsh Government to ensure that they get the support and focus that they need.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, I ask the Minister to return to our farming communities. We know that this is a complex problem and we rely on our farmers to work very collaboratively with all sorts of agencies to try to prevent the water coming down into vulnerable areas. As we have noted in the last few days, our farming community is already quite vulnerable and feeling very nervous, particularly because there are some reports that the Countryside Stewardship higher-tier scheme may not open until mid-2025. It is another thing that may affect some of our farmers. Will the Minister commit to ensuring that her department does everything it can to bring the application dates of the Countryside Stewardship higher-tier fund forward as much as possible, to help our farmers?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The right reverend Prelate makes a very good point about higher-tier stewardship. We need to move forward with it. I know that the Farming Minister is keen to get this moving because it is clearly important to a cohort of farmers. I will relay his concerns and those of the House, because it is something we are very focused on moving forward.

[Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as a resident of Worcestershire. Following the floods of 2007 and 2015, quite a number of the flood defences were strengthened. I was glad that the Minister referred to looking at and maintaining the existing flood defences, but the last weekend told us that even those reinforced new flood defences, which were put in following the 2015 flooding, were not adequate. I urge the Minister to review—not just maintain—the existing defences and look at whether they are still fit for purpose.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I start by wishing the noble Baroness a very happy birthday. She makes an extremely good point. The maintenance of existing flood defences is critical, but we also need to make sure that they are fit for purpose and fit for the future.

[Baroness Smith of Llanfaes (PC)]

My Lords, leading on from some previous questions and points made about Wales, although this is a devolved matter, there needs to be recognition that coal tips are a legacy of the mining past of Wales. The Minister might point to the £25 million announced recently in the Budget, but that pre-dates what just happened over the last few days, with the coal tip hitting the community of Cwmtillery. There is the precedent that the previous UK Government gave £9 million when Storm Dennis hit and a coal tip in Tylorstown collapsed. I press the Minister: will His Majesty’s Government be providing funding for this specific incident? Comments have been made by other Members about the willingness to pick up the phone to the Welsh Government. Will any funding include financial support for these communities?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

As I said, the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State have been in touch with the Welsh Government. We want to offer what support we can. As to the extent to which that looks at new funding or whether or not there is other funding, that will be part of ongoing discussions around the coal tips. The Coal Authority, as I am sure the noble Baroness is aware, has responsibility for them. I worked with the Coal Authority in the past when I was a Member of Parliament. I always found it very open, sensible and good to work with. I would hope that both the Welsh Government and our Government will continue to work with the Coal Authority to ensure the safety of these different coal tips.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, the whole House is united around the concept of nature-based solutions. I am determined to invite the Minister to visit Slowing the Flow at Pickering in North Yorkshire, which is commendable for not having flooded downstream since it was built. For these schemes to be effective, and to roll them out across the country, to prevent floods of the scale we have seen all this week, by planting trees and creating dams upstream, will the Minister look favourably on rolling out more private funds, such as from water companies—United Utilities in her area, Yorkshire Water in my area—but also funding farmers and others to pay for these nature- based solutions?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

Obviously, the noble Baroness is aware that we discussed this at some length during the Water (Special Measures) Bill. It is important that water authorities and water companies look at how they can best use nature-based solutions. It is an important way to prevent flooding and pollution. I am sure that as we continue to work with water companies, going through the commission, the review and so on, we can make sure that these are a central part of how they design their drainage structures going forward. I think I am going to have to cave in and say I would love to come to Pickering.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, obviously, one of the consequences of severe floods is a big increase in the amount of raw sewage being discharged through storm overflows. For example, apparently, 7 million extra litres of storm overflow went into Lake Windermere. Can the Minister confirm to the House that there will be a comprehensive analysis of these incidents, and whether the Cunliffe review will be looking at the problems caused by these recent floods?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My understanding is that the review will be wide ranging. Clearly, pollution incidents, particularly around sewage, will be part of what the review can look at. I think the water companies and the Environment Agency will be looking at the extent of pollution incidents during the recent flooding, and that can then be evaluated.

[Lord Elliott of Ballinamallard (UUP)]

My Lords, out of every crisis comes some good as well. We saw a huge working together of people from various communities to help those affected by the floods and by the storm in general. In particular, I saw a number of farmers out clearing roads and cutting trees. Will the Minister accept that, even though the farmers have got a really bad deal out of the recent Budget, they are still out there helping the community and supporting those in need?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I live in a community in Cumbria that floods a lot, and one of the most extraordinary things when you have faced a serious flooding event is the way the local community comes together, whether that is farmers helping to clear the roads, people checking on vulnerable residents or people looking after other people’s pets when they have had to go into hotel accommodation. Community support, the way communities come together, should be hugely commended in our society, and farmers have an important role to play in that in rural areas.

[Lord Inglewood (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, given that we seem to have more and more floods, do the Government have any analysis of whether people are taking flood warnings more or less seriously than they used to?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

That is an interesting question. All I can say, for my part and that of people I know locally, is that in the last 20 to 25 years, since the flood warning system was set up and made available to communities, we have taken the warnings extremely seriously. It is important that we have these systems set up in order that they can help people in advance. If that did not happen this time, that is something we need to look at.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, are the emergency services getting involved at all with voluntary organisations such as the Maritime Volunteer Service, which has a mass of inflatables, boats, people trained to work on water and bases all over the country, and could assist in these sorts of times after the event has happened?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

That has happened in the past, in my experience. When we had the floods in Cumbria, the maritime organisations certainly came together to provide support. For example, the RNLI and Maryport Rescue came in and played an incredibly important role with inflatable boats. They went into cities such as Carlisle, rescuing and supporting people. In Cumbria, mountain rescue is entirely voluntary based. However, we need to be careful not to start totally relying on volunteers. Our emergency services play a very important role, as do the voluntary groups, but we must not take them for granted. It is important that the work they do is recognised and properly supported.