Business and Planning Bill

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 6th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I was drawn to this Bill when somebody pointed out there may be an error—or, rather, an omission—in the way the licensed premises are designed. If I read it correctly—the advantage of being elderly and long-sighted is that you actually can read when you are looking down at something—this is that premises licences are what we are talking about. Club premises licences, which most sports and social clubs have, do not seem to be in the mix. This means that a bar in a sports or social club, which is the main driver of this hub of social activity—or at least the financial driver that ensures what is going on—may well be excluded.

I ask—and we have two Ministers here, which is the advantage of being in the Chamber—if we have got this wrong, that is great, but could they let us know? If this is an error, can it be changed? We have the whole of Committee to go through and it is a small change. Can we make sure it is addressed? I see one Minister nodding and one looking concerned about looking at this to check it. I think we have all just scored a point in favour of having a physical House where you can interact, as opposed to having merely an exchange of monologues.

However, if we have that going, can we have a look at this? Sports clubs and so on are so important and are such an important deliverer, and this is how most of them are financed. It is an important factor. Can we check that and make sure that we get it right? If we do not, we will damage one of those bits of society which is already taking a pounding. Cricket has come back, but will we generate enough money for the juniors next year and for the season that is left? If there is ever a sport that is last back, it will be rugby union—why did I choose to play that sport all my life? Football, rugby league, hockey—anything that requires contact—will be slow to come back. If their bars are not working or not working at capacity, they will have another problem.

There are all sorts of schemes and you can bandy around the monetary figures, but if you have not made sure that they can sustain themselves in the way they did before, you will make a bigger problem for yourself, you will create holes in social provision, and you will miss out on something that is done by society for itself—the state has only to make sure that they can carry on functioning, not much more. I would have thought that the Liberal/Tory traditions could join in with that, and I am quite sure that the Labour Benches have no objection to it either. Can we make sure that that actually happens, have a look at this and make sure that it goes through?

Lastly, I do not know how many hours I have spent in this Chamber over the years talking about disability access. The noble Lord, Lord Balfe, beat me to this. A buggy—it used to be called a pram—and a wheelchair usually require similar accessibility aspects. You will be making it easier for everyone if you make sure that the pavement is accessible for a person with either one of those two things, let alone luggage on wheels, which have now joined them. Make sure that the access is there, and you may well address many of the problems here. It is not the perfect solution, but it could be better by addressing and making sure that, if you have got it wrong, you change it, and if you have got it right, let people know.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

I call the noble Lord, Lord McNicol of West Kilbride. No? I call the noble Lord, Lord Wei.

Business and Planning Bill

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th July 2020 Lords Chamber

At present it is not possible to use a digital ID as proof of age for the purchase of alcohol in the UK because there is no industry standard for digital ID, although I assure noble Lords that the Government recognise advancements in technology and the need for agreement on what constitutes an acceptable form of digital ID for age-verification purposes. We have long supported this scheme and welcome the alcohol industry’s commitment to continue to support the Proof of Age Standards Scheme. We have also commissioned its board to produce a set of standards for digital ID. However, due to the pandemic, it has now been delayed. We look forward to receiving recommendations from the board next year. Until such a standard is agreed, the current restrictions should be upheld. I hope that my noble friend will not press her amendment. I shall finish there.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, I have received a request to speak after the Minister from the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering [V]]

My Lords, my noble friend has answered my question and I am absolutely delighted with her answer.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 2. I remind the Committee that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or any other amendment in this group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Amendment 2

Moved by

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[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend’s enthusiasm and wise observations. I had signed up to speak on Second Reading and, due to unfortunate technical problems, was unable to do so. I wish to speak to Amendments 6 and 8.

I echo the introductory comments of the noble Lord, Lord Balfe. His concerns may be widely applicable in many areas of our country. I am deeply concerned about the impact of the fast-tracking measures that will allow alcohol to be served outside or off premises. I witnessed first-hand a large event at a venue nearby, on two consecutive weekends, and was shocked to witness large numbers of young people gathered without any social distancing—not a mask in sight—spilling on to the streets, as highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne. I welcome the points made earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, about age verification. I question the age of many present at these gatherings and agree with the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that it is not enough to rely on staff minding the entrance to ensure identity of large numbers of eagerly waiting young persons.

I suggest to the Government that the beneficial income revenue is likely to be seriously compromised by insurmountable amounts of litter, men urinating on the road and against buildings, activity going well into unsocial hours with an unacceptable level of noise and antisocial behaviour and disturbance, inevitably causing concern to nearby family residents. In fact, a group of people came over to my car as I was driving by, who were drunk and aggressive. Witnessing this was my adult son, who lives with autism. He was distinctly alarmed and anxious. I could see no one obviously enforcing rules at this event and no signposting for social distancing rules or for toilets.

Therefore, I am uncomfortable that some licences will be granted for more than a year without review. They are the most significant changes in licensing laws for years, and local authority and police services do not have any additional resources and will not be equipped to take on additional duties to monitor these licences for compliance without extra funding.

The proposal that local councils will have permission to revoke licences is, frankly, not good enough. Can the Minister clarify that local authorities and police forces locally have been allocated the necessary resources? Will these measures embed due regard to the rights of residents nearby, particularly those who are disabled or may be vulnerable young women, including the impact on women staff members? I was pleased that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, referred to the danger of excessive availability late at night of cheap alcohol. As a former manager of drug and alcohol services, I agree wholeheartedly.

I am not convinced that communities, local authorities and police have been adequately consulted, particularly on the impact on people with disabilities and the environmental impact on their lives of these measures. Can the Minister say that residents, including those who are disabled, will be consulted—reaching out to all residents, including those for whom English may not be their first language? Will there be opportunities to express any dissent, and will a public reporting mechanism be established and made available in various locally relevant languages?

Finally, in support of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and other noble Lords, I agree that, even at this time of duress, this House must be assured of adherence to the fundamentals of the public sector equality duty, and thus respect all the prerequisites of ensuring compliance, not just by local authorities but by those who hold a licence. Throughout this pandemic, I have sought assurances from the Government that we heed local conditions and respect local needs, including those based on the population and its linguistic requirements, and consider lack of access to online services for a large section of our populations. I am confident that the Government will continue to honour this duty and ensure that public consultation materials, printed and online, are available in accessible formats—including Braille, audio and translated into some of the relevant languages—and made available on a variety of platforms, including ethnic minority media platforms.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, has withdrawn, so I now call the noble Lord, Lord Balfe.

[Lord Balfe [V]]

I am indebted to my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for giving me a new description, which I am proud to have, of having reached a more stately stage of life. I plead guilty to that.

Mention has been made by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe and by others of the need to get the economy moving, that this is a temporary measure and all the rest. I ask noble Lords to remember that we are sending out terribly mixed messages. I happened to be in Cambridge station yesterday, and there people are still being advised not to travel. They are still saying that you should stay at home, at the same time as the Government are saying that you should now suddenly not stay at home.

I do not accept that this will make that much difference. I referred earlier to the Office for National Statistics survey, which shows quite clearly that a very large number of people—indeed, a majority—have no intention of going back to an enclosed restaurant in the foreseeable future. We need to distinguish between a temporary measure and what I am beginning to sense is almost a panic measure—the belief that, if we pass this Bill, suddenly everybody will go back to restaurants; that is not necessarily true.

I make another point about my tour of Mill Road, Cambridge, which I introduced in the first series of amendments. I did a very close survey of it in connection with the alcohol licence I mentioned earlier, which was opposed. There are two, if not three shops in Mill Road which are owned by Muslims, and two of them, at least, do not, on principle, sell alcohol. The idea that seems to be punted around that everybody wants to sell alcohol as a way of getting back to normal is not necessarily true. There are shopkeepers that do not wish to sell alcohol but to make a living selling groceries.

I also welcome Amendment 17, in the name of my noble friend, Lord Holmes, in particular the provision that asks local authorities to visit the area. There is no real substitute for local people, particularly local councillors, looking at an area where an application has been made and applying some common-sense judgment. I would say that that is common-sense judgment very much bearing in mind the broad guidelines put forward by my noble friend Lord Blencathra. Some people will ask, “How wide should it be?”, so those guidelines are extremely important, but it is also important that local government and local councillors are made accountable for the decisions in their area. You cannot have local democracy if you are constantly falling back on saying, “Oh well, the Minister says this, the Minister has said that”. So I welcome that, and I think “the local authority must” is an important element.

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[Lord Carlile of Berriew [V]]

My Lords, I start by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, on having the courage to present this important amendment, and on doing it so well—[Connection lost.]

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

Lord Carlile, are you still there? We had better move to the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, and we may try to get the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, back later.

[Lord Rennard (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the principle of providing pavement licences is welcome, and I believe that this amendment will help to encourage more businesses in the hospitality sector to open. It has been put forward superbly by my noble friend Lady Northover and other noble Lords.

Over the weekend, I was able to visit excellent cafés on the Eastbourne sea front which were all following sensible and necessary precautions in relation to social distancing et cetera. However, as an asthmatic who has never enjoyed having to suffer other people’s tobacco smoke, I would not have enjoyed the experience if I had been subject to smoke blowing across from nearby tables. I was also mindful that staff in these establishments could not be protected from second-hand smoking if it had been permitted in these outdoor areas. Where I went would not have seemed so family-friendly, and passers-by would have been at risk, as pavement licences will apply to areas close to where people will be walking.

There is some misunderstanding over this amendment. It is about smoking immediately outside premises, where smoke drifts in and staff and customers are heavily exposed. It is not unlike the prohibition on smoking, agreed in 2007, in relevant parts of railway stations. These regulations cover concourses, ticket halls and platforms. Smoking is at present banned in public places. That ban has wide support, and it should be banned where pavement licences are now granted. If we do what the tobacco companies want, we will be undermining the Government’s own aim of creating a smoke-free country by 2030.

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[Lord Naseby [V]]

My Lords, this is not a health Bill, as my noble friend Lady Noakes pointed out; it is a temporary measure. I am sorry to say this, but I think that this is an emotional amendment—and I speak as someone who is a non-smoker. I would remind your Lordships that tobacco is a legal product that is marketed with awareness packaging. Moreover, we need to take on board that we are talking about the nearly 7 million people in our population who still smoke, plus the 3.6 million who are vaping.

A great deal has been said about smoke curling around people who are eating and so on, but in an outdoor situation, tobacco smoke is highly diluted and dissipates very quickly in almost every atmospheric condition. It is absolutely right that smokers have a responsibility to behave properly towards the people around them, particularly when they are accompanied by children.

The proposal being put forward in this amendment to force pubs and cafés to ban smoking outside their premises—otherwise they will be refused permission to serve drinks—is wholly disproportionate. At a time when all our small businesses are on their knees, struggling to survive under the pressure of coping with Covid-19, I suggest that the last thing they need is further restrictions that will drive away desperately needed customers.

I am not saying that this measure would not be appropriate in a proper health Bill at some point, as soon as the authorities deem it to be relevant to take a particular action one way or another—but to hang this ban on to a temporary Bill that is designed to help every small business, not just those whose customers are not smokers, is entirely wrong in my view.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

Can we get the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, back?

[Lord Carlile of Berriew [V]]

My Lords, I apologise—just as I was speaking, there was a power cut in my home. I was saying that in 2015, some 115,000 people died of smoking-related diseases in the UK alone, at a time when knowledge of the dangers of smoking was complete. Since at least 2006, when a significant report was published by Stanford University, it has been known that exposure to tobacco smoke outdoors is less damaging but still potentially very damaging. The noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, who is a considerable medical expert in your Lordships’ House, described clearly how the effects of tobacco can be transferred outdoors.

Let us turn to the nature of the venues that we are discussing. We are not talking about people smoking cigarettes in a field or in a park, or walking along a pavement and making steady progress. The nature of many of the venues that we are discussing here involves canopies, umbrellas and, by definition, proximity. We need only look at the courtyard of every public house.

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So I ask the Minister to accept the inexorable logic and merits of this amendment. I thank noble Lords for allowing me a second go at this speech after my unfortunate power cut.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock.

[Baroness Pinnock [V]]

My Lords, we have heard powerful and eloquent contributions, led by my noble friend Lady Northover, on the imperative to ensure that by extending ways in which pubs and cafés can serve customers, we do not also inadvertently extend opportunities for smoking. All the arguments have been made. I wholeheartedly support this amendment. It has cross-party support. I look forward to the Minister indicating that the Government accept that this amendment is essential for public health.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, we now come to the group consisting of Amendment 24. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Amendment 24

Moved by

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or any other amendment in this group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Clause 12: Removal of powers of court in relation to unfair relationships

Amendment 46

Moved by

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The Government must do all they can to remove barriers to the very existence of our companies, particularly SMEs, so that we can retain the jobs that they provide. Their ambition, which I support, is for a loan facility that is low-cost and simple. Without these amendments, the scheme would lose its simplicity, since lenders would be free to weave in extra hurdles, making the scheme less secure for the borrower and thereby less well-suited to the job. I urge the Government to stick to their ambition and retain the protection in law that other forms of lending now have.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

The noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, is not with us, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin.

[Baroness Uddin [V]]

My Lords, I support Amendment 48 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara. I have just a few brief points. I shall speak specifically about data collection and the reporting requirement for the Bounce Back Loan Schemes. Despite the pandemic, we cannot overlook the need for transparency, open government and a robust process of reporting to Parliament. Current data relating to the total number of applications and the number of loans granted does not make allowances for how well the scheme is working to help businesses through the crisis, including SMEs, as the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, referred to. There is inadequate data on the number of businesses that could not access loan schemes and why they were refused. This should be addressed in the reporting mechanism.

The curry industry, which I referred to earlier, has reported that its members are experiencing a great deal of difficulty in accessing this financial support. I am deeply concerned about eradicating any inequity that they might be experiencing. Therefore, I would like more detailed reporting to include the number of successful applications from SMEs led by BAME communities, particularly in the curry industry, and, more specifically for the curry industry itself, the actual number of applications that have been successful and those that have been rejected.

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Debate on whether Clause 13 should stand part of the Bill.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

We now come to the group beginning with the Question that Clause 13 stand part. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this, or anything else in this group, to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I gave notice to oppose Clauses 13 and 14 because I did not understand them and felt that their meaning needed clarifying. This is an opportunity for the Minister to explain how they work in simple language. I thank the Minister and her team for the time they have taken explaining the clauses to me. Providing the Minister’s explanations are in line with our discussions, and she reads them into the record for the enlightenment of industry practitioners, I am optimistic that I will not need to take my concerns any further.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

I call the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. We cannot hear the noble Earl. We will move on to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and come back to the noble Earl later.

[Baroness Kramer [V]]

My Lords, I will be exceedingly brief. I only wanted to address Clause 14(2)(b), which is basically about HGV licence applications. The Government have, in effect, temporarily waived the requirement for medical certificates, which I find entirely appropriate in light of the pandemic and the difficulty of requiring the medical profession—distracting them, if you like—to carry out the various tests and fill out the various forms that would provide those certificates.

My question is this: having made the decision that it is possible to grant HGV licences on this basis, are the Government willing to agree to do the same for other applicants for drivers licences? I am particularly concerned about others who, like me, are about to turn 70. We, of course, have to obtain new licences as we reach 70. I have been able to do it very easily online because I have the right sort of picture-based identity and passport, and because I did not require a medical certificate.

However, I have received a number of letters from various people who have not been in that position and are now finding that their licences are expiring at a time when they really do need to be able to use their cars. Being over 70, they are quite anxious about going on public transport; I think most people would think that that was entirely appropriate. Having made a decision that it is going to temporarily waive that medical requirement for HGV drivers, will the Government now consider doing it particularly for the over-70s?

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

Have we got the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, back?

[Earl Attlee (Con) [V]]

Yes, I am here, my Lords.

I have Amendment 49 in this group and it may be convenient to speak to it now. Before doing so, I should declare an interest in that I operate heavy goods vehicles in a private capacity and present them for testing. The Committee will be pleased to hear that the last one I prepared passed first time, despite being of some age.

In a modern society we utilise, or go near, a wide range of equipment, facilities and infrastructure that, if not properly maintained, could be extremely hazardous. Think about electrical systems, trains, lifts, aircraft, the underground system—once run by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe—pressure vessels, steam boilers and the like. Disasters are very rare because the systems are subject both to regular and statutory inspections performed by what is termed a “competent person”—an individual who has the necessary experience, training and independence from the operator and the owner of the equipment, so that he or she can inspect the system or equipment without fear or favour. The competent person is not normally employed by the state but by private industry or commerce.

The Committee will be painfully aware that motor vehicles are a serious safety hazard if not properly maintained. Private motor cars are annually inspected by an MOT garage and the inspector is authorised by the Secretary of State but employed by the garage or testing station. There is no difficulty in securing a test date because the motor trade ensures there are a sufficient number of testing stations and authorised testers.

The situation with heavy goods vehicle testing is very different. What are termed authorised testing facilities—ATFs—are provided and funded by industry but authorised by the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency—the DVSA. The vehicle inspectors are employees of, and provided by, the DVSA. Levels of remuneration are screwed down by the Treasury to such an extent that the DVSA is always underresourced, with only just enough inspectors to meet demand—at best. Even in normal times, one would expect to wait six weeks for a new test date. This is not a short-term Covid problem.

Business and Planning Bill

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 14th July 2020 Lords Chamber

Amendment 58 not moved.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 59. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate and anyone wishing to press this or any other amendment in this group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Clause 17: Extension of duration of certain planning permissions

Amendment 59

Moved by

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76: Before Clause 22, insert the following new Clause—
“Three-month parliamentary reviews
(1) This Act expires at the end of a review period unless the condition in subsection (2) is met.(2) The condition is that both Houses of Parliament have, following a debate, passed a resolution during the review period in the form in subsection (3).(3) The form of the resolution is—“That the provisions of the Business and Planning Act 2020 should not yet expire.”(4) The first review period begins on the day 90 days after the day on which this Act is passed.(5) Subsequent review periods begin on the day 90 days after the day on which the previous review period ended. (6) A review period ends at the end of the seventh sitting day after the day on which it begins.(7) In this section, a “sitting day” means a day on which both Houses of Parliament are sitting (and a day is only a day on which the House is sitting if the House begins to sit on that day).”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would ensure rolling three-month parliamentary reviews of the legislation.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate, and anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, in my first contribution I should have declared my interests as a vice-president of the Local Government Association and as president of National Pubwatch.

Amendment 76 in my name is a solitary amendment and was first raised in the other place by my good friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch, Meg Hillier MP. The intention is to allow Parliament to consider the impact of the measures introduced by the Bill and to repeal them should unintended consequences occur. I very much agree with my honourable friend in the other place that it is particularly important for Parliament to take a power to repeal measures since so little time has been given for the Bill to be debated. Are noble Lords satisfied that we have had sufficient time to scrutinise the Bill? I suggest that we have not had enough time, but there is a lot of pressure to get it agreed. It is therefore important to ensure that we have a mechanism to deal with issues.

There is one important difference between my amendment and that which was debated in the House of Commons. In the amendment before the House of Commons it was for the Commons to conduct the review, while my amendment gives a role for the House of Lords. That is in recognition of the expertise in this House. For me, that was an omission in the discussions in the other place.

I expect I will shortly be told that this amendment is unnecessary as the Bill includes a provision for the affirmative procedure for draft regulations, but that affords little scrutiny, especially in the Commons where only a small number of MPs have the chance to raise concerns. This amendment would allow Parliament to review the impact of the provisions in the late autumn. If the Minister is unable to accept it, perhaps he could explain how the Government will allow the House otherwise to repeal aspects of legislation should the concerns around provisions prove founded. I beg to move.

[Lord Shipley [V]]

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark. I spoke about this issue at Second Reading and said that there was a need for quarterly reviews of the practical operation of this legislation, with scope for amending it if there were unforeseen or unintended consequences. The Minister said that he did not wish to “compromise the stability” that the Government sought and wanted to avoid “an unpredictable cliff edge” for those implementing the legislation who might find it difficult if the law changed constantly.

I understand that perspective. Of course, the solution is to proof this legislation properly: first, against mistakes, and secondly, by providing a means of putting right any unforeseen consequences of the Bill. I venture to suggest that there will be some unintended consequences; the question is how they will be put right. How will mistakes be corrected during the operation of this Bill, and would not the simplest means be to do what the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, suggests?

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

We do not seem to have the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock.

[Baroness Pinnock [V]]

I too support this amendment, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. The issues were raised at Second Reading. There will be unexpected impacts as a consequence of the ramifications of this Bill on both licensing and planning legislation. There must be a means of addressing them in a timely way. So far, we have not heard from the Government how that will be done. The noble Lord has brought forward a reasonable proposal for how any issues that arise from the Bill could be addressed, but as yet the Government do not appear ready to accept it. I look forward to what the Minister has to say in response.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for his amendment.

First, I recognise that this legislation is passing through Parliament at considerable speed. Your Lordships rightly stress the importance of scrutiny. However, any review of the kind proposed by the noble Lord should be proportionate to the issue in question. The measures in this Bill respond to the specific conditions created by the Covid-19 pandemic. We have already ensured that the vast majority of those measures are explicitly temporary or relate to temporary schemes.

Amendment 76 would create a potential cut-off to the Bill’s provisions every quarter. The Government believe that that would be very unhelpful and undermine the purpose of the Bill. Surely we need to give the economy and businesses stability and reassurance. Bringing these measures back to Parliament every three months for positive reapproval would create the very thing that businesses want to see the back of—uncertainty—and would severely dilute the benefits intended in the Bill. We cannot expect businesses and local authorities to operate not knowing whether these measures will be turned on or off every quarter. Construction work may be delayed or cancelled, vital freight vehicles may lie dormant, and businesses may find it difficult to operate.

Indeed, different sectors will need their provisions for different amounts of time. The different end dates of the temporary provisions in the Bill reflect the different effects of Covid-19 according to sector. For example, the challenges facing restaurants, bars and pubs are not the same as those facing HGV drivers, developers or construction firms.

I am not dismissing the case for scrutiny. Parliament will still be able to monitor and scrutinise the Government’s actions in all the usual ways. Let us bear in mind that, as the noble Lord reminded us, the powers to extend the duration of the temporary measures are subject to the affirmative procedure to provide opportunity for thorough scrutiny of the use of these provisions. As my noble friend Lord Greenhalgh outlined yesterday, we will also accept the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s recommendation in relation to the powers to extend measures in this Bill, to ensure that the effects of coronavirus are part of that consideration.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked how we as a Parliament will monitor mistakes and how those mistakes will be corrected. The answer is that built into these provisions are flexibilities that lie largely in the hands of local authorities, which can, taking pavement licences as an example, amend conditions or remove the licence altogether. In so far as we have devolved powers to local authorities, they have the ability to correct mistakes, if one can put it that way.

My final point, which I invite the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, to reflect on, is that a rolling review would mean that we could not implement the two permanent measures in the Bill. We would not be able to reform the Planning Inspectorate appeals system, as was recommended by the Rosewell review and has already been implemented in Wales, and we would not be able to future-proof rules for temporary exemptions from heavy vehicle testing. The existing rules allow for exemptions to be issued on a blanket basis during exceptional circumstances. The measures in this Bill will allow the Government to issue exemptions on the basis of road safety risk, while still being constrained through regulations to issue these exemptions in relation to exceptional circumstances. This corrects a deficiency in existing emergency powers.

For these reasons, I cannot accept this amendment and I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw it.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

I have received a request from the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, to speak briefly after the Minister.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, I wanted to speak in support of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark. I was not able to do so because I was muted from the other side; I therefore seek the leniency of the House in making my points.

In the past few months, we have become accustomed to approving measures retrospectively. Our debates have become mostly redundant because of the need to accommodate the next set of schedules and amendments. It has been important for me to put forward my views on this Bill.

Given the significant role of local authorities in the recovery of our communities, the reporting requirement in this amendment must detail the extra cost of how measures in this Bill will have an impact on local communities, as it is not clear. As a former councillor, I fear that the inevitable result will be a greater workload and higher cost for most authorities, including planning services. Many local authorities have been put on the back foot by some of the proposed measures and, by all accounts, feel sidelined.

As the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and other noble Lords passionately detailed, it is local authorities and local police forces who will have to manage the fallout and environmental impact of any breaches or disputes and mop up after anti-social behaviour. I am in complete agreement with the points made yesterday by the noble Lords, Lord Paddick and Lord Sheikh, about the result and detrimental impact of increasing the availability of alcohol. Therefore, this House requires more than assurances on reducing closing times. The impact can be felt by local residents—as well as the police and health services, of course—long into the night.

I am also concerned about the planning aspects of the Bill coming into this emergency process. The three-monthly review required by this amendment is of the highest imperative in warranting the necessary transparency in, and safeguarding of, local consideration of public interests. The Bill would worryingly enable planned development delayed by the Covid-19 outbreak to go ahead, forgoing the usual standards, such as requirement of local public consent, as eloquently detailed by the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, and others.

I appreciate that responding to housing need is of the utmost urgency. As a former deputy leader of Tower Hamlets Council, I am also fully conscious of the central role of local authorities in the planning process, and their duties and obligations to meet the needs of local residents and communities. This is equally significant when considering the environmental and health effects of long working hours on residents, particularly children. What provision will be made for environmental standards in the proposed local government emergency planning reforms?

It is worth reflecting on the Government’s own recent deluge of impositions, usurping the local planning process, which would have obvious detrimental consequences, incurring significant financial loss to the community benefits available from a number of local planning permissions granted. For decades, this has been a creative partnership route, allowing local authorities to build a fairer and more balanced mix of social and private housing and community facilities. The delay to accessing the community interest levy suggested in the Bill is deeply unsatisfactory. What consideration will be given to working with housing associations to ensure that good-quality family housing will also be built through permitted development rights —not just expensive housing creating segregated communities and further exacerbating social division? If the Minister is not able to answer, I would appreciate it if he would write to me and other interested Members.

No matter the political expediency, I see no value in, or justification for, management or planning decisions falling under emergency measures. I agree with my noble friend Lord Hain and the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, who have cited justified concerns and questions about land banking and other tensions within local authorities that they have to deal with. Local authorities should be at the heart of planning consent, and the Government should not persist in allowing fast-tracking for developers, which will inevitably compromise community housing needs.

The Bill would amend existing requirements concerning appeals to the Planning Inspectorate and would be a permanent change to the appeal procedure; it is a fundamental shift in local democratic accountability. Therefore, will the Minister assure the Committee that the quarterly review will encompass independent and local oversight of all planning applications granted for housing under this emergency legislation? Will he also make public any objections raised by local residents to safeguard due process in all planning consent while this emergency legislation is in place? I am extremely grateful to all Members for their patience.

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Amendment 76 withdrawn.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate, and anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Amendment 77

Moved by

Business and Planning Bill

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 20th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal)]

The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, has withdrawn from this group. I call the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow my noble friend Lady McIntosh. Appropriate regulation to ensure proper provision for the blind, the partially sighted and the disabled in the allocation of pavement licences is absolutely right. In a civilised society, such measures should be a given. I therefore welcome the moves proposed by the Government in the amendments which the noble Earl, Lord Howe, is bringing forward.

It is important that we encourage economic activity. As my noble friend Lady McIntosh said, that must be done speedily if it is to make sense in this context. We should bear that in mind. The provisions brought forward by the Government in this group on access and protecting individuals are appropriate and to be welcomed. We should embrace the wider Bill, which seeks to promote the necessary economic activity I referred to. I will not delay the House further, as there is a long list of Peers who wish to speak. I give this part of the Bill my total support.

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[Lord Balfe (Con) [V]]

My Lords, first, I thank the Minister and his fellow Ministers for the careful way in which they have looked at the points that have been made and for the concessions that they have given. Indeed, if you asked the question, “What is the role of the House of Lords?” this Bill provides a good example of it, because while it went through the Commons in a matter of an hour or so, we have given it detailed consideration and, importantly, the Ministers responsible have looked industry detail and with sympathy at the points that have been made. So I make those points first.

I want to make a couple of points, in particular about Amendment 4. Some noble Lords will remember that I was David Cameron’s envoy to the trade union movement. I know a bit about it because I have been a member since the age of 16. Now the first thing about Amendment 4 is that, of course, there are very few trade unionists in the catering industry. The second point I should like to make about it is that this is Labour virtue signalling. There are plenty of trade unionists who support the Conservative Party. Indeed, in the union of which I am president, BALPA, the majority voted Conservative at the last election. Many trade unionists vote for the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Liberal Democrats and, in particular, for the Green Party—so what we have here is very much a bit of Labour special pleading.

On that, I am always pleased to hear Churchill being quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, and I would remind the noble Lord, Lord Monks, that I believe he was working for the TUC when it turned down the proposals of the Bullock committee to consult unions and have them on the board. So let us have a bit of remembrance. And let us also remember that Labour has decided not to support any Divisions on this Bill. So it is worth remembering when it starts asking, “Can this be done or can it not be done?” that it will not be supporting anything to the point of a Division.

I make all of those points because I would ask the Minister to acknowledge in his summing-up that co-operation is needed from all groups in society, including responsible trade unionists. I am sure that they will be happy to co-operate, whether they are trade unionists or just workers in the catering industry. I look on this amendment as a partisan one that does not add to the Bill; it is so that a group of people can go and wave at the TUC.

I note that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is set to follow me. I will just tell him that on one occasion when David Cameron met a leading member of the TUC General Council, he asked, “Apart from the national minimum wage, which we are not going to abolish, which piece of pro-union legislation that the Blair Government passed are you worried that we might repeal?” The answer was total silence. So let us not have too many lectures about what Labour is going to do for trade unions until some future date when it may even have done something.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I am afraid that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is not going to follow the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, because he has withdrawn from this group. So I now call the noble Lord, Lord Naseby.

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I have taken part in every stage of this Bill and I believe that we must never forget that its basic principle is to get the economy going and in particular to help the hospitality industry. I do not know how it was for anyone else, but over this last weekend less than half the pubs in Bedfordshire were open to cater for people who wanted to go out on Friday or Saturday evening. Why were they not open? Either they did not have the space or they had not managed to get organised, et cetera. Against that, I pay tribute to what my noble friend Lord Blencathra, and the noble Lords, Lord Holmes and Lord Low, have done to ensure that the Government of the day have taken note of the challenges for disabled people. They have worked tirelessly on this and I say a great personal thank you to them. It is good that my noble friend on the Front Bench has listened and that we now have Amendment 16 before us.

The only other point I want to make is about guidance notes. I have been the chairman and the leader of a local authority and there is nothing worse than guidance notes that are out of date. They do not need to be 300 pages long; they need to be probably 20 clear and short statements of what is necessary in an emergency situation.

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[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 29. I remind noble Lords that Members, other than the mover and the Minister, may speak only once and that short questions of elucidation are discouraged. Any noble Lord wishing to press this, or anything else in this group, to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Clause 11: Modification of premises licences to authorise off-sales for limited period

Amendment 29

Moved by

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[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 40, in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Pinnock, and to the other amendments in this group. For the benefit of those who may have just joined us, let me summarise. The Government have got themselves into a right two and eight. Amendments 29 to 41 deal with bars, pubs and restaurants that have licences to sell alcohol on their premises and which will temporarily be allowed to sell alcohol for consumption off the premises as result of this Bill.

The Bill does not redefine the area covered by pavement licences as being part of the licensed premises. As a consequence, drinks served within the area covered by pavement licences will be off-sales. To enable alcohol, such as glasses of wine and beer, to be served at tables within pavement-licensed areas, the Government have had to lift the current restriction on alcohol off-sales being only in sealed containers. The unintended consequence of lifting this restriction is to allow the unrestricted sale of alcohol from these premises in wine and beer glasses, for example, to people who can then walk down the street, drinking where and when they want.

Local residents do not want people drinking outside their homes, away from licensed premises, with the potential for disorder, violence and urinating in the street, particularly late at night. In addition, broken straight beer glasses can cause horrifying injuries, whether when deliberately broken and used as a weapon or when people fall on to broken glass.

This brings me to the amendments. The Liberal Democrats’ Committee amendment, which sought to restrict off-sales to no later than 11 pm, has been given effect by government Amendments 29, 31 to 34 and 36 in this group, which obviously we support. I thank the Minister for securing this—albeit limited—concession. However, these amendments do not prevent street drinking away from pavement-licensed areas and neither does Labour’s Amendment 39 in this group, albeit that it restricts it to street drinking from plastic cups.

Our Amendment 40 restricts off-sales in open containers to pavement-licensed areas, beer gardens and the like, but also supports businesses by allowing alcohol to be taken away from restaurants, pubs and bars in sealed containers. If the restaurant or pub is too full when you get there—because of social distancing, for example—it allows you to take alcohol home from those premises in an unopened bottle, can or other sealed container, as currently applies to existing off- licences, supporting hard-pressed businesses as a result. Amendment 41, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, does not allow alcohol to be taken away from the premises under any circumstances, which would hinder trade.

In a meeting with Ministers last week, the Government agreed to discuss Amendment 40 with us before Report but they have failed to do so. I explained in Committee why existing provisions and the provisions in the Bill are inadequate to deal with street drinking and disorder. As a consequence, I give notice that I intend to divide the House on Amendment 40.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The noble Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Mann.

[Lord Mann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I thank the Government for the way in which they have listened on the amendments that have been tabled, particularly in relation to late licensing and the problem that occurs in many communities of police forces being overstretched by over-late licensing for tiny numbers. That seems to be a bit of a tradition going back three or four Governments. It was not just the disruption to local residents that was a problem, it was the huge distortion—in areas such as the one I live in—in how the police budget was used.

I recall an example where a late licence was given to one premises until 5 am. Tiny numbers would be drinking there but the danger of some form of anti-social behaviour between, say, the hours of 1 and 5 am was disproportionately high. Therefore, police rosters for an entire area had to be altered. It took a good two years of argument and pressing to begin to work that backwards. The consequential impact on other policing, when police numbers were very low, was great. I commend the Government on their approach and commend noble Lords who have proposed amendments that would have a similar impact on timing. The foreseeable consequence in relation to police resources, particularly in smaller communities, is huge. That displacement at the moment would be critical.

On the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, I propose to the Minister that the question of miners’ welfares always needs to be borne in mind. Whenever there is licensing, I always think miners’ welfares are a good litmus test of whether the law is any good. The miners’ welfares that I know very well are in a range of locations. Some have licences that fall comfortably within the concept of gardens and that kind of space. Some have at great expense designed spaces to capitalise on that. Others do not have that opportunity but have a similar kind of clientele—a highly responsible clientele who have been better in the responsibleness of their behaviour over the last three or four months and are able to drink sensibly and rationally.

What the Government propose seems far more sensible than the amendment. If there were to be an amendment, the one proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, seems the more rational option. It seems to me that, for some businesses that are on the cusp at the moment, simply restricting in would have unforeseen consequences for their business planning. I encourage those miners’ welfares to survive by providing an additional service. Despite the fact that I had great fears about potential late-night drinking, I have no fears about that in communities such as the one I live in. I think the Government have listened and commend their approach on this. I would be interested to hear the debate on what the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has to say. He seems to have struck a middle ground but does not appear to be pushing his amendment to a vote.

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Amendment 41 not moved.

[The Deputy Speaker]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 42. I remind noble Lords that Members other than the mover and the Minister may speak only once and that short questions of elucidation are discouraged. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in the group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Amendment 42

Moved by