Oral Answers to Questions

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Tuesday 21st May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Ind)]

Tapadh, Mr Speaker.

There are many criticisms of the Government—I am sure they are aware of them—that they are too slow and indecisive about giving signals to the market for particular technologies, which means that, when they need to commission new energy, they are stuck with only one option: gas, which, as we know, is not exactly the way to net zero. What will the Secretary of State be doing to move things a bit quicker and give the market signals as to which energy path the UK will be taking?

[Claire Coutinho]

I remind the hon. Gentleman that we have one of the most remarkable records when it comes to renewable energies. The only country that has built more offshore wind than us is China, we have set out the largest expansion for nuclear, and we are at the forefront of cutting-edge technologies such as fusion, hydrogen and carbon capture.

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[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Ind)]

Tapadh leat, Mr Speaker. Zonal pricing has the potential to lower bills for households from Sussex to Shetland, from Stonehaven to the great town of Stornoway. Of course some vested interests will be concerned, such as energy generating companies that are benefiting from the constraint payments raised from customer bills. What are the Government doing to stimulate debate and knowledge about zonal pricing?

[Justin Tomlinson]

It was a pleasure on my return as a Minister to attend the hon. Gentleman’s Select Committee, which he chairs so well. This is part of stage 2 of our wider consultation under our review of electricity market arrangements, and we take on board his and his Committee’s constructive suggestions in that meeting.

Gas-fired Power Stations

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Wednesday 13th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Ind)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker—tapadh leibh.

It is concerning that this was announced in Chatham House and not here in the House, and that the Secretary of State is not here today. Off-piste speeches have cost in the past. My Committee heard this morning that an Energy Minister made a speech a decade ago that, with the effect it had on investment, cost 1,000 jobs. The Minister says that this is a consultation, but have the Government picked a winner? What room have they given for storage to be in the mix? Are they confusing energy security—we have learned from the Ukraine war important how that is—with continual electricity supply? Given what the Minister says about the percentage of gas used by 2030 and after, what percentage of capacity will this provide, and what percentage does he envisage will be used day to day? What thought has been given to consideration of other technologies in his gigawatt demand?

[Graham Stuart]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. I suggested, on different scenarios, about 1% or 2% of total generation coming from gas in future, compared with 38% in 2022, on an annualised basis. Clearly, as the hon. Gentleman should know better than anybody here with his deep knowledge of the subject, it is based on intermittency. It depends on how much the sun shines and how much the wind blows, but we will ensure we have a robust system. That is exactly what we are doing. I would love it if people could celebrate this country’s global leadership and the fact that we are driving this forward, especially those such as members of the Green party, who are supposed to care about climate change. We are doing this in a way that maintains security of supply and, by bringing in more and more renewables, with the lowest-cost and most flexible system to back it up, doing so in a more and more economical fashion.

Offshore Petroleum Licensing Bill

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Committee of the whole House
Tuesday 20th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Ind)]

The hon. Gentleman rightly mentions the sky-high energy prices that people in Scotland face, even though Scotland generates so much energy. What role does he think zonal and modal energy market modelling, rather than a one-size-fits-all, UK-wide approach, would play in substantially reducing energy costs in the likes of Sutherland in Scotland, and also in England, in places like Surrey? Everybody would be a winner if we moved away from the UK-wide model and towards the zonal and modal method.

[Dave Doogan]

The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting question. There has been a lack of investment, and the network that delivers energy around GB was designed for a small number of very large generators. It is ill-equipped to deal with many smaller systems of generation. That is why we find ourselves switching off wind turbines and, where the demand still exits, replacing them with gas, much to all our constituents’ cost and misery. The failure to transition in the electricity distribution network across GB is exactly the same failure we see in our dependency and desire to keep looking backwards. We should transition from hydrocarbons to renewables in a way that respects communities.

In closing, we should grasp Scotland’s bright future with both hands. In so doing, we will rid ourselves of the mismanagement of successive UK Governments in Westminster.

Oral Answers to Questions

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Tuesday 16th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Amanda Solloway]

As the hon. Member will know, we are continuing our support for vulnerable households, and it is important that we help households as best we can. As an example, we have the £900 cost of living payments and the warm home discount payment. Obviously, we will constantly monitor where we are and will ensure that we continue to support all those vulnerable households.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Ind)]

There is indeed a need for a social tariff, whether it is a cost of living crisis or a lack-of-wages crisis, given that the Resolution Foundation reported at the beginning of December that average wages across the UK were £10,700 lower than they should be compared with other comparable countries, following the past 15 years. There probably is a lack-of-wages crisis hitting the UK.

Regardless, the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee said in our “Preparing for the winter” report, in paragraph 24:

“We urge the Government and energy suppliers to consider implementing a form of social tariff and other measures to protect vulnerable households from being cut off from their energy supplies.”

That was a unanimous report across Labour Members, Tory Members and, of course, the pro-Scottish independence voice on the Committee, but will we see some movement on this from the Government? It is important and needed by everybody, and it would be particularly welcome to my constituents in Na h-Eileanan an Iar.

[Amanda Solloway]

As I have indicated, we are doing a lot of things to help people, including the most vulnerable in society. It is worth pointing out that it was announced recently in the autumn statement that the national living wage will be worth £1,800 for a full-time worker and that benefits will increase by 6.7%, which is worth £470 a year.

Oral Answers to Questions

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Tuesday 28th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Ind)]

I wish to welcome Faroese politicians who are here watching today. In the past year, the energy bills support scheme alternative fund was set up to help 900,000 households. As the Minister said earlier, only about 150,000—141,000, in fact—got the £400 promised, which means that 750,000 eligible households missed out on their £400. With one in four bill payers now in energy debt, will the Government keep their promise and make good to those 750,000 who missed out on that money when the scheme closed in May?

[Amanda Solloway]

As I stated, the alternative fund was an incredible support and provided households with that support. The Government lent in to try to ensure that everyone who was entitled to the funding was able to receive it. Now that the scheme has closed, the money will return to His Majesty’s Treasury.

Oral Answers to Questions

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Ind)]

We also welcome the Secretary of State to the Dispatch Box. With many renewable projects built on the strength of contracts for difference, but with reports of many not invoking these contracts and instead benefiting from the higher energy prices, can the contracts in principle be invoked later, when prices fall, or could the Government enforce the invoking of the CfD contracts now, at the start of the generation of these projects, rather than their taking the high prices while they can?

[Claire Coutinho]

The CfD programme has driven prices down over time to enormous effect, by 70% since they started, which is much more than people expected. I would be happy to take the hon. Gentleman’s particular point away but overall this is a successful programme, and our annual auction changes will also make a difference.

Offshore Wind Contracts

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Tuesday 12th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Ind)]

The boom and bust of this fiasco will inevitably have knock-ons for the supply chain. How concerned is the Minister about that? Also, how concerned is he about projects that were built on CfD securities but have not invoked the contracts and are now literally raking in the windfall of that act?

[Graham Stuart]

I do not quite follow the second part of the hon. Gentleman’s question, but I am happy to write to him on that topic.

Energy Bill [Lords]

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 5th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Bowie]

Absolutely. It is incumbent on all involved, from the transmission operators to the developers, National Grid, the electricity system operator and indeed the Department and those across Government, to ensure that where such pieces of critical national infrastructure are being built, developed and planned, plans are proceeded with and laid in a way that is conducive to local sentiment and local support and will provide for that local community for many years to come.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Ind)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Andrew Bowie]

Yes. I would be delighted to give way.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

I am grateful to the very polite Minister, as was said by the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone). I am sure the Minister is aware that heat pumps will produce about 2.5 times the energy of the electricity put into them, or four times for ground source heat pumps—they are multipliers of the power put into them. The Government have a plan for 600,000 to be installed by 2028. Will we see those? How many will we see next year? Does he have intervening targets for that? At the moment, they are at only a 10th of where the target would have them.

Secondly, a point asked in my constituency is about the new £10 million community energy fund, which relates only to England, despite energy being reserved. Will he enlighten Euan Scott, my constituent, please?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. There is so much pressure on time, so it is really important that interventions are short.

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[Andrew Bowie]

Yes, I am very pleased to welcome developments in renewable liquid heating fuel. The consultation, which will be UK-wide, will benefit those living in rural constituencies such as Banff and Buchan, and those across north-east Scotland and rural Britain. I welcome the support for the sustainable aviation fuel amendment, to which I will refer shortly.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

To back up the point made by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (David Duguid), standard consultation and the legislation being in place in 12 months do not show the necessary urgency. That is the point that unites many people. The Minister, with his Thompson gun approach to spitting things out, got that one out very quickly, but we need it done an awful lot more quickly than starting within 12 months. This Government will probably be gone in 12 months.

[Andrew Bowie]

I am determined to work very hard to ensure that this Government will not be gone in 12 months. However, we are taking the powers now to ensure support for the use of these fuels in heat in future, if needed. I should make clear that we are starting the consultation within the next 12 months, not in 12 months. It will be within the next year.

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[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

The Minister may have heard on “The World at One” on Radio 4 last week the head of OVO Energy talking about the movement for the cost of transmission from the unit price to the standing charge price, which has ramped up standing charges and is very concerning to many people because that disproportionately impacts poorer bill payers. Will he look at that issue and discuss it with Ofgem at his meeting?

[Andrew Bowie]

Yes, I can confirm that I will raise that issue with Ofgem at my next meeting, and at the next available opportunity I have to meet the Chairman of the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee, I will certainly have an answer for him on that question.

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Members have been very enthusiastic in tabling amendments to strengthen the Bill on Report, and many of the issues raised are similar or identical to the issues we raised in Committee. I am particularly impressed by the amendments tabled by the right hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore), as well as new clause 43, on onshore wind, tabled by the right hon. Member for Reading West (Sir Alok Sharma). There are amendments on coal, fracking, flaring and venting. Amendments on a number of issues would strengthen the Bill, including new clause 47, tabled by the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns), which would address China, solar panels and the Uyghur population.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman mentions boilers, and a number of organisations, including Green Alliance, Action for Warm Homes, Power for People and Energy UK, have produced briefs that point to how infrequently such Bills come around. There are great changes in energy technology and in world events, but they are not mirrored in Parliament. Both sides of the House should commit to not cramming everything into one energy Bill every decade. Given how things are changing in this sphere, Parliament should address it far more frequently than every decade.

[Dr Whitehead]

If the hon. Gentleman contains himself, he will see that we have tabled an amendment on low-carbon energy in homes. I agree that we cannot put everything in a Bill but, because of the urgency of the commitment we are making with this Bill, it is important that we get as much clarity as possible on what we are doing in the Bill now, so we know where we are going and the ways we are doing so.

Having discussed those other amendments, I will now draw attention to Labour’s amendments. I hope the House will understand why we have drafted them in this way and how that relates to the tests I mentioned. On our new clause 53, the Government say they support community and local energy. Indeed, as the Minister said, the Government have put a modest amount of funding into supporting community energy but, as the hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Sally-Ann Hart), who is not in her place now, said, we still do not have an understanding of how community energy can actually work. We think community energy will be an important part of the decarbonisation process. It is not one of the large, shiny things upon which money will be lavished in large amounts but, in aggregate, it will have a huge impact on decarbonising energy in this country.

The Government still have not introduced arrangements that will enable local power producers to trade locally and get the proper value of their trade, which is vital to the success and certainty of these projects. Labour wants to support local energy projects practically, particularly through the “valley of death” period where the pockets of community energy are usually shallower than needed for all the planning permissions to run their course. With support from Great British Energy and local authorities, we propose that £400 million a year will eventually support the important role of community and local energy in decarbonising power.

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[Sir Alok Sharma]

We do need a diversified energy system, and I think the Minister set out all the work that is going on on nuclear, for example. However, as we drive forward for greater energy security, we need to change the planning rules to allow more onshore wind. The objectives of new clause 43 are to ensure a more permissive planning regime. The new clause seeks to lift the current planning restriction that in effect means that a single objection can block a development. It also seeks to ensure that local communities willing to take onshore wind developments will receive direct community benefits.

The Government have today responded to new clause 43 by bringing forward a written ministerial statement on onshore wind. I thank the Government for the constructive dialogue we have had over the past days on this issue. I acknowledge that that written ministerial statement, and indeed the accompanying changes to the national planning policy framework, move things forward and will help to deliver a more permissive planning regime for onshore wind.

The de facto ban is lifted. The statement clarifies that the policy intent is not to allow very limited objections or even a single objection to ban a planning application, and it is explicit that local communities willing to host onshore wind farms should directly benefit, including potentially through energy discounts. That is positive, but we do need to see the Government’s formal response to their consultation on this issue to understand the detail of the precise mechanism by which the benefits regime will work.

I also welcome the fact that local plans will not be the only route to delivering more onshore wind, with more agile and targeted routes available. Of course it is now a requirement for local planning authorities to support community-led initiatives for renewable and low-carbon energy. Vitally, those policy changes are effective today.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

The right hon. Gentleman talks about bill payers, but for the previous wind that was built under renewables obligation certificates, there were big profits because the prices were denominated in gas. Under the CfDs, money is not going to the bill payers, but to the Government—it was creamed off the top. The mechanism has to change; I applaud what he is trying to say and do, but there is a missing link on how the bill payer will see a benefit, as they should.

[Sir Alok Sharma]

The hon. Gentleman will know that onshore wind has been back as part of the CfD process in the last couple of years. I am very happy at a future date to have a detailed discussion on that but, in the interest of time, I will move on.

I understand that some people would like the planning regime for onshore wind to be even more permissive and for onshore wind to be treated like any other infrastructure. I get that, but we also have to recognise that it has been a contentious issue in the past, and it is important that we take communities with us on this journey. That is why the community benefits mechanism will be so vital. Frankly, people respond better to a carrot than to a stick.

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[Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP)]

I start by paying tribute to my predecessor in this role, my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown), whose work on energy, particularly on access to clean and affordable energy, was exceptional. I base my ambitions in this role on his record. I also note the Minister’s kind remarks about my hon. Friend and thank him for them.

I want to highlight the abject abandonment of community-owned energy projects in this Bill. It is patently obvious that any just transition to net zero is simply not possible if local communities cannot sell the energy they produce to local customers. Local energy trading provides manifold improvements, including lower prices, protections against price shocks, enhanced energy security, network redundancy and a return on investment back to communities.

The UK Government kicking this can down the road is a hammer blow to efforts to achieve a just transition, and they are doing so without even trying to disguise the fact. Worse still, they have instead provided a paltry £10 million over two years—the Minister left out the “over two years” bit—to fund feasibility studies in England. That is not seedcorn funding; it is chicken feed served up with extra disdain for Scotland and Wales, as the UK Government have steadfastly refused to apply Barnett consequential to this admittedly pitiful sum.

Fundamentally, this sop to Tory Back Benchers does not—as one of the Minister’s Back Benchers said—remove the barriers preventing community energy schemes from selling their power locally. The Local Electricity Bill would have done that, as would amendments made to the Energy Bill had they not been removed by Ministers in Committee in July. Why is this Tory Government so loth to put power in the hands of the people?

Turning to nuclear, English MPs maintain an enduring obsession with nuclear. Their total failure to concede or even rationally acknowledge the catastrophic decommissioning and clean-up costs of that energy source is, by any measure, incredible. As they drag Scotland and Wales along with them for the ride, it is almost as if those English MPs, and indeed the Government, can foresee a time in the not-too-distant future when they will need to buy Scotland’s energy rather than just taking it, as they have got used to doing over recent decades. Nuclear is their insurance policy against Scotland’s independent future.

New nuclear is a millstone around the neck of our net zero future, consuming disproportionate costs per megawatt-hour. If we contrast nuclear with offshore wind, we see that although construction costs for nuclear continue to spiral out of control, and SMR nuclear continues not to get off the ground, the cost of offshore wind has fallen by 80% in a decade. New offshore wind projects coming online within the next two years will be paid about £45 per MWh, which is half the wholesale power price of £90 per MWh forecast until at least the end of the decade, and 60% less than the £115 per MWh of electricity from Hinkley C nuclear power plant.

Tories and Labour Members alike will cry, “This is all about baseload for when the wind does not blow”—I am surprised they have not done so already. Of course, that is correct; we do need baseload, but it does not have to be nuclear. If successive Westminster Governments had invested nearly as much rhetoric and taxpayers’ money creating a renewable energy mix as they have done for nuclear, we would be in a very different place. It would be a place where tidal flow and barrage schemes complement widespread impoundment, pump storage and run-of-river hydro schemes, together with green hydrogen production, battery storage, solar on every appropriate elevation of a domestic or commercial property, and timely delivery of carbon capture, usage and storage.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman makes a point that must be recognised and understood for the future. Before Hinkley Point was commissioned, the question was of providing 6 GW of nuclear baseload rather than just 6 GW of baseload, and of seeing whether there could be a mix of green energy, as he argues, or if it would have to be nuclear energy. By prescribing the way the Government have in the past while sticking to 2012 index-linked CfD prices, nuclear is a way to make and print money very quickly.

[Dave Doogan]

My hon. Friend is correct. Over and above the self-evident environmental consequences of nuclear, the way in which this and successive Westminster Governments have fiscally mismanaged the pursuit of nuclear leaves nothing to the imagination.

To continue my remarks, we do not live in that place. We live here in broke, broken Britain. The Bill fails the people on energy once again because it is bereft of strategy and completely loses control of costs. If we want to evidence such calamitous incompetence, we need look no further than auction round 5, or, more specifically, the strike price therein. That price threatens to kill off construction-ready projects from that auction round. At the very best, it will mean even less of the additional supply chain value landing in domestic companies and local workers’ bank accounts, further deepening the cost of living crisis. Penny wise, pound foolish.

Contrast that with the strategic ambition of the Scottish Government, who are investing in communities by maximising the economic, supply chain and employment opportunities of onshore and offshore wind, with up to £1.4 billion of developer supply chain commitments on average across Scotland. I have seen the extraordinary investment and opportunity at Montrose port in my Angus constituency with Seagreen, but we need sustained investment to win those crucial multiplier effects and make the just transition a systemic reality for our communities.

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[Dave Doogan]

The hon. Gentleman is entirely correct: he did miss me highlighting what would replace that baseload, and I refer him to Hansard after today’s debate.

The challenges of inflation and interest rates have altered the parameters to such an extent that this Government’s pretence that it is business as usual is breathtaking. Have they not seen what happened in the recent auction round in Spain or, conversely, what happened in Ireland when the Irish Government intervened to protect investment in renewables and reaped the benefit and reward for their economy?

If projects do slip from allocation round 5 as a result of an unrealistic strike price, where do Ministers think the supply chain capacity, the skilled workers and the specialist vessels will go? They will not wait around here, waiting for the Department to get its sums right—they will be off to the US and the EU to access commercially cogent incentive packages such as those found in the Inflation Reduction Act or the EU’s Net-Zero Industry Act. The stakes could not be higher for both net zero commitments and UK energy prices.

I am proud that the SNP has worked to protect people from the worst effects of the Westminster cost of living crisis with our amendments to the Bill, with steps that would protect the next phase of contracts for difference projects within AR5, properly provide for a comprehensive and complementary mix of energy storage solutions, advance local supply rights and work towards supporting our most vulnerable with the development of a social tariff, especially for those with higher energy use caused by medical conditions. I am pleased that the SNP’s new clause 39 will be put to a vote this evening, and I urge all Members to support that provision, which, while modest in scope, would have profoundly positive effects on many in our rural constituencies who live off the grid and have to heat their homes through liquid fuel.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Before the hon. Gentleman makes his intervention, I inform the House that there will be a four-minute time limit on Back Benchers introduced from the start.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman mentioned a small issue that makes a big difference. The energy bills support scheme, which was very harsh, ended far too soon and has caused an awful lot of problems. This has been covered by Radio 4, and people have written letters about it—I have a letter here from Stourport, in the constituency of the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier), who is a member of my Energy Security and Net Zero Committee. People the length and breadth of the UK are feeling the harshness of the Government’s penny-pinching and tight deadlines, and those who live in caravan parks or on boats are being especially hammered by this. This Government should listen and make a difference. One of the big things affecting people watching this debate today is that they are not getting that £400 for the last year.

[Dave Doogan]

I agree entirely, and I echo the calls from my Scottish National party Westminster leader, my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn), who wants to see the £400 support package reintroduced. The idea that the pressure on household budgets from energy prices has somehow gone away is for the birds.

Energy security is not some abstract area of Government policy, nor is the purchase of energy a discretionary one for homes and businesses in our constituencies. Failing to legislate and plan strategically in this area, as Westminster has done in perpetuity, is the very reason people are facing the choice between heating and eating. It is the same reason that businesses across these islands have closed their doors due to energy costs. The exorbitant cost of energy in the UK is a function of supply-side constraint, and this Government have compounded that through incompetence, inaction, lack of ambition, penny-wise, pound-foolish misadventure and their obsession with nuclear.

Just imagine how much more perilous the situation for energy consumers in England would be if they never had Scotland’s energy powerhouse to shore up this Government’s incompetence and spaffing money on nuclear left, right and centre. This Bill was an opportunity to make up lost ground and catch up with functioning unions—the United States and the European Union—but as usual, the dysfunctional United Kingdom gets it wrong again, and it is ordinary taxpayers and bill payers who will pick up the pieces and pay the cost. There is one reason why households in energy-rich Scotland are facing fuel poverty and haemorrhaging household budgets on energy costs, and it is sitting in this Chamber: the UK Government.

Energy Infrastructure

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Wednesday 5th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

As ever, the hon. Gentleman is correct: we are one United Kingdom. Of course, on energy on the island of Ireland there are interconnections with the Republic, but with the changing nature of our energy system, the economic opportunities for investment, job creation and industrial renewal are enormous for all parts of the UK—for Northern Ireland, Wales, England and Scotland.

I wish to touch briefly on the key outputs of the three inquiries I mentioned. First, on grid capacity, we are talking about the network of power lines, pylons and interconnectors that transport electricity generated to areas of demand. That is a critical piece in the energy infrastructure puzzle, not just in Wales, but for all parts of the UK. The issue should keep Ministers awake at night, because it was clear from our inquiry that the entire way in which grid enhancements and new connections are delivered is not fit for purpose, given the imperatives of UK energy policy.

I recognise the steps that have been taken by the Government and the National Grid Electricity System Operator. With the appointment of Nick Winser as the UK’s first electricity networks commissioner, the Government are taking steps to address the challenges. However, if we think about the increase in the speed of delivery and consenting that is required if we are to see the renewal of our national grid in the way we need in the years ahead, we see that we need a much more significant step change in the pace of activity.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Ind)]

rose—

[Stephen Crabb]

I give way to the Chairman of the Select Committee on Energy Security and Net Zero.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point there. One other issue to address is the plethora of zombie projects that are clogging up the system, which do not make it easy for anybody. Identifying them is not easy either—I do not pretend it is, but I wanted to bring that to his attention.

[Stephen Crabb]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for bringing that to the House’s attention. There are currently about 200 GW of projects on the books. Many of those are zombie projects, as he describes them, that will not come to fruition and so are clogging up the system. The Government need somehow to get rid of those projects in order to focus on areas where we know there will be investment, and to encourage an anticipatory investment approach that will deliver the new infrastructure we need in a timely way. Otherwise, we will end up developing a renewable technology and a system able to generate clean energy, but we will not have the grid to get it where it is needed.

Secondly, on nuclear energy, our inquiry confirmed that there is a broad consensus between the UK Government and the Welsh Government on the role that nuclear should play in achieving the UK’s net zero targets and ensuring domestic energy security. The majority of our witnesses were in favour of new nuclear energy generation in Wales, and I am pleased to say that the Committee agreed that nuclear energy has a strong role to play in a mix of low-carbon sources.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie) for the role she played on the Committee, as well as in her capacity as a constituency MP, in championing nuclear energy for Ynys Môn. There has been no more energetic and active Member of Parliament for Ynys Môn that I can remember—she has done a great job in championing her constituency. Our report carries and reflects much of the positivity that my hon. Friend brought to the subject.

We heard strong evidence about the suitability of the Wylfa site on Ynys Môn for a new gigawatt-scale reactor. In fact, we do not believe that the Government will meet their targets for increasing nuclear power without building that large-scale nuclear plant at Wylfa. We recognise the progress that the Government have made in establishing Great British Nuclear and bringing forward the regulated asset base model for securing investment in new nuclear. However, despite that positive progress, a new nuclear power station at Wylfa in north Wales is not in the bag.

When I was in Government 10 years ago, we championed a new nuclear power station at Wylfa. Ministers were sent for photo opportunities there and to meet potential investors, but it did not happen. I know that the community in Ynys Môn, represented by my hon. Friend, feels disappointment because it has had its hopes raised and dashed in the past. We do not want that to happen again, so I implore the Minister to hear the arguments about Wylfa. I know he feels passionate about the subject and will discuss these issues with Government colleagues.

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[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Ind)]

That was an unnerving cheer from the Minister on the Front Bench. Luckily, I know him personally.

I am honoured to follow the Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee. He has raised a whole lot of issues with which many Members will agree. Of course, there will be disagreements, but that is the nature of energy, which is so vast, and where the task ahead of us is so huge. There are challenges ahead. The right hon. Gentleman touched on skills and the volume of people that we will need. The point he made about the number of welders reaching the age of retirement is critical. We have ambitions to do things not just in Wales, Scotland or the UK, but globally, and they are happening simultaneously as the world reacts to the commitments that were made at COP in Paris. There is a volume of people that is needed and skills that are required. Over and above the training of people, which has been mentioned, the Home Office has an important part to play as well, because we will inevitably need skills coming from other countries. We do not want the Home Office, which has blocked such things in the past and been very damaging to the UK economy on several fronts, doing its worst. It must realise that it, too, has a huge part to play in what will be the challenges over the next number of years.

Recently, I met representatives from the National Grid, who told me that by 2030 they hope to do five times the amount of work that has been done in the past 30 years. That is quite a volume of work and quite a demand through the energy system, putting a lot of pressure on many people—at local level, planning level, Government level and Home Office level. It involves training people, encouraging people in schools to come forward, and, in a number of places, retraining people as well.

[Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is also an important role for further education and university technical colleges? Members from across the House met young people and staff from UTCs earlier today and it was inspiring to hear what these young people were saying about their ambitions for the future. Does he agree that the technical education sector has a lot to offer?

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman is correct: the technical education sector has a lot to offer and Government must ensure that the funding is available for that training. We know that people are needed. If they show willing to come forward to be trained, they should have every support from Government to achieve that.

Touching on the supply chain, I think since the bronze age about 700 million tonnes of copper have been mined, and in the next 30 years, some people say, the same amount will have to be mined as has been mined in the last 5,000 years. That poses quite a challenge for the Earth’s resources and the ability to do that. It is not just mining; I am told that across the world, cable manufacturing is signed up until 2030 and the cable manufacturers are working full tilt to get those orders under way and to meet demand.

We have a huge problem in planning, and sometimes for justified reasons, but planning can take a lot longer than the construction of projects—sometimes twice the length of the construction. That is causing huge difficulties. Building the network is not really the biggest part of the story; planning the network becomes a bigger part.

Where energy infrastructure is built or where energy is generated, there will be a cost to some people. Can that be compensated with community benefits, job creation and other innovative ideas in communities? I know in my own constituency, Tolsta Community Development provides free driving lessons for young people. It is quite an innovative idea, but all the young people in North Tolsta on Lewis get the opportunity for free driving lessons, and there is money at Christmas and what-have-you. There are a number of innovative things that can make infrastructure more palatable to certain communities who have to carry the burden—because that burden will be disproportionate in some places.

Ofgem is a huge area of difficulty. I recall many years of trying to get Ofgem to consent to a 600 MW link to the outer Hebrides while Ofgem was digging its heels in for 450 MW. That went on and on, and then one morning we woke up and Ofgem was talking about 1.8 GW, and we had to go back to the drawing board again and make the case to Ofgem for the whole thing at 1.8 GW rather than 600 MW. It has been said to me, in my new role chairing the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee, that perhaps Ofgem needs a statutory duty for net zero. That might free up Ofgem’s hands to do a number of things, because it often feels quite constrained in its remit from Government. People go to Government and try to get something changed and they say, “Well, it’s an Ofgem issue.” People can end up bouncing between the two—I am seeing nods from certain people in certain corners, although I will not point the finger too directly.

Ofgem really needs to be looked at because, while the Government often talk about market forces, the biggest force in the market is most often the Government. They have a huge role to play, especially in energy and in guiding Ofgem and changing Ofgem’s remit to bring all those things into play. I spoke to the Energy Networks Association yesterday, which told me that time is not on our side for much of this work. We can see the evidence in recent months that the climate is oscillating unusually —we know it is. If we are going to get things done, we need to get rid of the grit that is often in the ointment.

Another area that I came across recently when speaking to the chief executive of Centrica and other people involved in the energy space is hydrogen. I am sure this will be debated, but people say that the UK has been second or third on other technologies, letting Denmark and others take the lead on wind, for example. There is an opportunity here to really move for hydrogen, and some estimates suggest there could be 1.5 million jobs in hydrogen. It is a big sector; it needs to be given time and space and a Government commitment. People within energy are telling me they are concerned that those commitments might be weakening. That is not something we want to see happening at all, especially given that the Government missed the boat on many technologies.

I will end on the role of smart meters and demand. Since the Ukraine war and the energy pinch, we have seen a change of behaviour in a number of countries. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) for pointing out yesterday that Germany has decreased its gas demand by about 22% through changes in behaviour. The Government have another part to play in demand management, which can be as simple as public information campaigns letting people know what they can do to change, or what industry can do to change, and helping ensure that we use energy less wastefully and more efficiently.

We must also remember vulnerable consumers and people who need energy more. Someone who is at home and disabled will be using energy more than other people. Smart meters can have a huge role in helping with demand management, but there is an issue for Government—I am sure the Minister will look at this further—on whether GDPR is an impediment to improving demand management and helping people more widely.

On this energy estimates day, we have to look forward and hope the Government are listening, working with people and taking the best advice—

[Caroline Lucas]

rose—

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

I will give way to the hon. Lady.

[Caroline Lucas]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way; I was trying to work out where his semicolon was going to come. I am very glad he raised the issue of demand reduction. Does he agree that the Climate Change Committee’s latest progress report is pretty damning when it says that installations of energy efficiency measures are still well below what is needed and, shockingly, fell even further last year? Does he also agree that when it comes to reducing demand, the Government should be setting out a local authority-led, street-by-street home insulation programme that would get people’s bills down? That is what would guarantee energy security, rather than the kind of measures we are seeing from this Government, such as more oil licences.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

Yes, one of the Climate Change Committee’s main bullet points has been lack of urgency from the Government. As Lord Deben’s Committee said:

“Pace should be prioritised over perfection.”

I am sure there is not—

[Caroline Lucas]

There is not perfection either.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

The hon. Lady says from a sedentary position that there is not perfection either. This is the space of politics and debate, but there has been an awful lot of learning, with many august committees and people who have been experts in this area for a number of years saying some fairly robust things. I hope the Government will take that on board and react to it so that the next report is less robust and more positive.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. A little reminder to Members that if they intervene on another Member, it is courteous to stay until the end of their speech. Sometimes people have to be reminded of that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) on securing this afternoon’s debate, which has been very well informed and well argued on all sides. I might add that there has been one exception; I thought that one hon. Member made a particularly silly and evidence-free contribution that chimed ill with the others, but perhaps we will gloss over that.

I have known the Chair of the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee for a very long time, although I still cannot pronounce his constituency entirely right.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

Na h-Eileanan an Iar.

[Dr Whitehead]

Thank you very much; I will not even try myself. Among other things, the hon. Member mentioned the Climate Change Committee’s very recent report, as did the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) and others. Before I get into the detail of what has been discussed this afternoon, I think it is important to set out what that committee actually says about Government action on climate change, and particularly about the progress made by the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero on the matters within its purview, which include most of the net zero emissions targets.

Last week’s progress report from the Climate Change Committee says quite simply that the Government have a “lack of urgency”, and a lack of interest in pursuing net zero targets and undertaking the action necessary to reach them. It is a devastating report with respect to just how little is being done by the Department to advance the net zero policy framework. As a couple of hon. Members have noted, the committee comments:

“Pace should be prioritised over perfection.”

That is, I think, the committee’s very kind and polite way of putting its devastating point. Basically, it is saying, “Stop messing about and get on with it.”

That has been a bit of a theme among hon. Members this afternoon. They have raised issues in several areas, including those in the list set out by the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire, who raised the question of the grid, the question of nuclear and the question of floating wind. The problem arising in all those areas is that we are failing to take action or take the opportunities to push things forward. All of that will have a very substantial effect on future net zero targets.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

We are here in the UK Parliament talking about the UK context, but does the hon. Gentleman agree that the bigger context is about rising global demand? People are going to struggle to find ways to get the copper, get the cables and get the people. To meet those targets, there needs to be internationally co-ordinated thinking about how best to utilise resources, people and what have you.

[Dr Whitehead]

The hon. Member is absolutely right. We are in global competition for resources that are presently being procured for things across the world that we are still thinking about, worrying about and wondering whether to go ahead with, when we know that the availability of those resources is rapidly running out. If we do not take action very soon, we will simply find when we come to the table that all the food has been eaten.

The right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire highlighted the grid, which he rightly described as not fit for purpose. My personal view is that lack of action to undertake the necessary uprating and reorganisation of the grid will be the undoing of all our net zero ambitions. We have heard that projects seeking to get their connections to the grid firmed up are facing delays of up to 10 years. If we do not urgently get the grid up to scratch so that it can capture and deliver low-carbon electricity, we may well completely miss our targets, because we will have a number of schemes in hand but will be unable to plug them into the grid to deliver any low-carbon power to anybody. Urgent action to get the grid up to scratch is important.

The grid needs to be able to deliver electricity around the country effectively. At the moment there is a tremendous problem with constraints between Scotland and the north of England and the south, where we are increasingly turning off low-carbon power to balance the system. Quite often, we are bringing gas into the system because we cannot move that power around the country properly. We need urgent grid bootstraps to make constraints a thing of the past, and the Government have only recently woken up to the idea that action should be taken. Frankly, they are way behind the curve on the work that needs to be done.

The hon. Member for North Devon (Selaine Saxby) made a telling contribution on the future of floating wind in the Celtic sea. We have to bear in mind that floating wind is part of the ScotWind process, too. I do not need to add anything to what she said about the danger of failing to reach our targets on floating offshore wind development and all that that means for RenewableUK’s ambition to have some 34 GW of floating offshore wind in UK waters by 2040. We are going to miss that initial target, so where will we be on our future targets unless we get our act together on supply chains, the grid and the development of offshore wind in general in the very near future?

My hon. Friends the Members for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy) and for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) raised the issue of carbon capture and storage, and the problems we are having with developing it for the future. They are absolutely right, among other things, to query the arrangements that are presently under way on cluster development. It baffles me, to be honest, that we continue to have competition between clusters on CCS and hydrogen development. We had a first-track competition before placing in reserve—whatever that means—the important Scottish cluster, which is essential for the future of CCS. We have second and even third rows of clusters waiting to see whether their ambitions can be realised. A number of companies involved in those ambitions have put their concerns on hold while the Government decide the track for each project. We should not have tracks; they should proceed together. We ought to be clear about that.

If the Department had a target for consultations and papers, it would have easily exceeded that target, but I am afraid they are not yet attaching themselves to the urgent progress needed on net zero. That is the main charge laid against the Department by Members on both sides of the House this afternoon.

Oral Answers to Questions

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Tuesday 4th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

On decarbonisation, many organisations, such as the Institution of Civil Engineers, are asking about the Government’s net zero growth plan, which said:

“The public will play a key role in the transition and therefore we will set out further detail on how Government will increase public engagement on net zero.”

Can the Minister clarify when that detail will be published?

[Graham Stuart]

I thank the Chair of the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee. He is right that as well as top-down Government policy, we must unlock the huge public desire of people to play their part and make sure we have the right information in place. That will be provided and produced as soon as possible.