Public Transport (Greater Manchester)

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting me this debate on an issue of vital importance to me and the vast majority of the 2.7 million people who live in Greater Manchester. I was advised as a new MP never to request the last Adjournment debate of the week with a title broader than my constituency. I appreciate that this is the last parliamentary business before the summer recess and have no doubt that you, Mr Speaker, like me, the Minister and other hon. Members present are itching to get out of this place and into a pair of Speedos as soon as possible, so I hope the debate will be an excellent way to start the summer. I thank all colleagues present in the Chamber: my hon. Friends the Members for Manchester, Withington (Jeff Smith), for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley), for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) and for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), and on the Government Benches the hon. Members for Bolton West (Chris Green) and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall). [Interruption.] Yes, and the Labour Whip is from London. I also thank the Minister for his attendance and response and Transport for Greater Manchester for its assistance to me in preparing for the debate.

This debate is particularly timely, as devolution to northern cities as part of the Government’s much-vaunted northern powerhouse initiative offers a huge opportunity for improvements in Greater Manchester’s public transport. My aim for this debate is to make my own contribution on what I and my constituents would like to see happen, and to ask the Minister whether he believes the powers to achieve that will be forthcoming.

Greater Manchester needs an improved public transport system, and in particular greater capacity. Improvements have been made in recent years, such as the expansion of our iconic Metrolink system, but more needs to be done to meet the needs of our growing city. We need these improvements to cater for increased demand for leisure travel in a city where the population is expanding, but crucially we need them for the economic benefit that a vastly improved public transport system would bring. If Greater Manchester is truly to thrive, as London has, the movement of a skilled workforce around the conurbation is vital.

I am sure the Minister will agree with that, not least because over a third of jobseekers in Greater Manchester state that lack of transport is one of the top barriers to their attending an interview or getting a job. Furthermore, the expected growth in Greater Manchester jobs is likely to mean at least 30,000 more trips into the city centre at peak times in the near future, while at the same time 31% of households in Greater Manchester have no access to a car.

One of the main points I wish to make in this debate, however, is that it is not just travel into the city centre and back out again that needs to be upgraded, but, fundamentally, travel between the outer parts of Greater Manchester to facilitate the easier movement of people to jobs, and to ensure places like Tameside do not miss out on the benefits of “devo-Manc”. Currently, our public transport system is largely based on getting into and out of the city centre, but I am convinced that we must improve the connectivity between the outer parts of Greater Manchester if we are to unlock its economic potential, and I am absolutely certain that we can do that. In this debate I shall address the issues around rail, rolling stock, Metrolink, buses and car use that I want to see tackled in order to achieve that.

I must start on a negative point, however: the incredibly disappointing news regarding the electrification of the trans-Pennine line that the Government disclosed recently. When the electrification of the trans-Pennine route was first announced back in 2011 I was very pleased and very supportive, not least because it would finally end the problems of under-capacity and unreliable services that my constituents in Stalybridge and Mossley, and those of other Members in the Chamber, were enduring daily. Coupled with the wider Rail North and northern hub work, the benefits would be huge, and I was delighted that my constituents would be able to see the improvement. I was also hoping to see my casework decrease, as poor, overcrowded services from Stalybridge are rightly regularly raised with me as an issue. Yet four years later that optimism and anticipation has all but disappeared thanks to this Government’s handling of rail policy.

I was incredibly disappointed to be told of what the Government describe as an “indefinite pause” of work on the trans-Pennine electrification, a disappointment shared by my constituents and colleagues on both sides of the House. The Manchester Evening News even went so far as to describe this as the “Northern Powercut”, which should give the Minister some sense of the anger rail users in Greater Manchester feel. We are still yet to receive a full explanation of why the work has been delayed, with the Government principally blaming Network Rail. I hope the Minister will shed some more light on this in his reply. The Prime Minister denied in a recent reply to me in this House that this amounted to a cancellation of the work, although announcing a “pause” without setting a date for work to be completed, or even restarted, seems to me to be pretty close to a cancellation. Therefore, I want to press the Minister on whether he can give a cast-iron guarantee before the House today that the electrification work will definitely be completed, even if he cannot give a date for its completion. That would provide some much needed clarity for rail users in Greater Manchester.

One related issue, which deserves specific attention, is that of the poor-quality rolling stock on all lines serving Greater Manchester. The Pacer trains used by Northern Rail are quite frankly not fit for purpose and in desperate need of replacement. If the Minister is not aware of the type of trains I am talking about, their nicknames, which include boneshakers, cattle trucks, bus bodies and pacemaker trains, should give him some idea of the esteem in which they are held by fed-up commuters in Greater Manchester.

The trains were of course intended as a stop-gap solution for rolling stock back in the 1980s, but they are still in use today on major commuter routes in and out of Manchester city centre, screeching round corners and disliked by almost everyone who travels on them. The Prime Minister himself has promised to end their use in the north of England, yet commuters see no progress, so will the Minister in his reply tell the House how he intends to achieve this?

The one bright light at the end of the tunnel, I understand, is that those trains will have to be gone by 2020, as they do not comply with disability discrimination legislation. I appreciate that there are good intentions on the issue, but because of the wider problems in train franchising, stemming from the west coast main line debacle, in my constituency we actually saw the threat of newer trains being removed and transferred to the home counties. The pressure on the remaining fleet of diesel trains has become acute and will only get worse until electrification is completed. We fought off that proposal, but it means that my constituents repeatedly hear negative stories about the trains in our area, and I want to give them some hope for the future.

One area of public transport in Greater Manchester that has expanded successfully is the Metrolink network, and the new lines recently opened to Rochdale, Oldham and Ashton-under-Lyne have been very welcome. It is no coincidence that the number of passenger journeys, which has been increasing year on year, reached 31 million in 2014-15, and Metrolink has become a visible symbol of Manchester.

There are issues that Metrolink does need to address, because customer satisfaction is not as high as it could be, and there have been some teething problems along the new routes. But overall I believe that Metrolink is a hugely important asset, and I would like to see it extended to my own constituency of Stalybridge and Hyde. Extending Metrolink to my constituency could be a radical new phase for the network.

As I previously noted, greater orbital connectivity between areas outside Manchester city centre would be of great benefit to Greater Manchester as a whole. To use the example of my own borough, Tameside has a significant inter-dependence with the neighbouring boroughs of Stockport and Oldham, not least because Stockport has nearly three times as many jobs as Tameside, and many Tameside residents fill those jobs.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Jonathan Reynolds]

Of course I will give way to my Tameside colleague.

[Andrew Gwynne]

As well as being a Tameside colleague, I am a Stockport Member of Parliament. My hon. Friend makes an excellent point about the need for orbital public transport around Greater Manchester. On existing infrastructure, he will know that there is a very under-used line between Stockport and Stalybridge, which serves Reddish South and Denton stations, with one train a week in one direction only. Is that not precisely the infrastructure that could be utilised to bring about the orbital service to which he refers?

[Jonathan Reynolds]

It absolutely is. It seems absurd, given the cost of creating new rail capacity, to have a line that is not utilised, when the reason it was not originally closed but turned into what is called a parliamentary service no longer applies, because transport patterns have changed so much. When we consider the bus links between Tameside and Stockport, with less than one bus an hour in some parts of my constituency, it does seem absurd.

In putting forward this case, I want people to recognise the crucial point that, primarily due to the completion of the M60 motorway, people now choose more than ever before to live and work in different parts of Greater Manchester. Our public transport network needs to reflect that change in travel patterns. Many boroughs, including Tameside, are very keen to see an orbital expansion of the Metrolink network to connect key town centres, and to see it extended to Manchester airport, with the huge potential for jobs and growth that could bring. I would love to see Metrolink extended to run from Stockport town centre, through to Denton and Hyde, and then on to Ashton to create a genuine circle line for south and east Manchester.

Metrolink is wholly operated by Transport for Greater Manchester, but central Government have always been instrumental in supporting it, including when it comes to expansion, so I would be interested to know the Minister’s thoughts on whether this Government would support further Metrolink expansion—perhaps using Government funds to match the retained revenue from the increase in business rates that might occur through expansion.

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[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

I, too, commend my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) for securing this important debate, albeit that it has perhaps kept a number of Greater Manchester MPs in the House of Commons for longer than they had anticipated on the last day before the summer recess.

I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) for making some very important points, not least about bus deregulation. He has long championed the cause of re-regulation of bus services in Greater Manchester, but not in the old monolithic way. He has been quite progressive in that he has always said openly that he is not against competition between bus companies, but that it should not be on-street, causing the chaos that we have seen over the past 20-odd years. It should be done in a controlled manner in a tendering system whereby Transport for Greater Manchester—or Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive, as it used to be known—could set the standards, the network and the ticketing arrangements, and we could have the properly planned and effective bus network across the county that, sadly, we have been missing for far too long.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde talked about rail services and his desire, which I share, to have some kind of orbital service. Orbital services, not necessarily involving trains but certainly involving buses, are not new; we used to have them. Until about 10 or 15 years ago, there was a service that ran from Bolton in the north through Bury, Rochdale, Oldham, Ashton-under-Lyne, Denton and Stockport all the way to Manchester airport—the 400 Trans- Lancs Express. That was great for getting from Bolton in the north of the county through to Manchester airport in the south, along the eastern towns. There were similar services in other parts of Greater Manchester. As my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton said, those services, sadly, were removed in favour of services into Manchester. The perversity of the current transport network in Greater Manchester is that 15 years ago someone who lived in Denton and wanted to get to Manchester airport could get a bus, but now they have to get a bus into town and then a bus out of town. The journey is twice as long and twice as expensive so, realistically, most people will not use that method of getting to Manchester airport from my constituency.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde raised an important point about the underuse of the existing rail infrastructure in Greater Manchester. If ever there is a line that highlights that best, it is sadly the Stockport to Stalybridge line, which runs through my constituency.

Perhaps the Minister does not know the history of that line. It used to serve a useful purpose back when trans-Pennine trains went into Manchester Victoria. Services from the south of the country go into Manchester Piccadilly, so if one was connecting from one of those services to a trans-Pennine service in the days before Metrolink, rather than going into Manchester Piccadilly and trudging across Manchester city centre with one’s baggage to Manchester Victoria, one would get off at Stockport and use the very useful service from Stockport to Stalybridge, where they could connect to the trans-Pennine trains. When trans-Pennine trains were diverted into Manchester Piccadilly, that link was no longer necessary.

Having said that, the eastern side of the conurbation has grown and travel patterns, including travel-to-work patterns, have changed. We now have a piece of infrastructure with two stations, Reddish South and Denton, that are sadly served by one train a week in one direction only. The service is so pathetic that one cannot even get a return ticket from the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde to mine.

We have two excellent friends groups: the Friends of Reddish South Station and the Friends of Denton Station. For seven or eight years, they have championed the desire for a train service that uses the Stockport to Stalybridge line, or at least part of it. There is even a connection just north of Ashton Moss that would allow trains to be diverted along the line into Manchester city centre. I urge the Minister to look carefully at their campaigns, which I fully support, and to try to get Northern Rail and Network Rail to include in the new franchise a proper passenger service that utilises that line.

[Barbara Keeley]

On behalf of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), who is not here, I want to mention the importance of keeping such urban rail lines open. Leigh must be one of the last places in the country that has no railway and no stations at all. I am sure that he would have added to this debate if he had been here. It is vital to keep such lines open.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Apart from Denton and Reddish South, which do have rail lines and stations, Leigh is probably the poorest served community by rail in Greater Manchester.

Lastly, I want to mention integration. It is all fine and well having great rail services and Metrolink services; possibly one day even having tram-train services, with trams using some of the under-utilised rail infrastructure across Greater Manchester, thereby reducing the capital investment that new tram lines cost the taxpayer; and having improved bus services when we have a properly franchised, re-regulated system, but none of that is any good to my constituents unless there is joined-up transport planning and integration.

The Chancellor announced in the Budget that the northern powerhouse is to secure an Oyster-style card that may, by the sounds of it, be used across the whole of the Northern franchise. That is an important step forward, although I am not sure that we want to be using state-of-the-art technology on 1980s, clapped-out Pacer trains, so I hope that the Minister will answer the questions from my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton on the timing of the upgrades and the introduction of the new rolling stock in Greater Manchester.

My one desire is that we end up with a transport system like that in London. Ten years ago when I first became a Member of Parliament, I could not believe it when London MPs complained about the state of public transport in the capital city. If I decided to start a journey on one mode of transport in Greater Manchester—tram, for example—and then connect to a train and finish my journey by bus, as someone can in London with an Oyster card where the services join up, people in Greater Manchester would have thought I was bonkers. The services do not join up, and that is the problem. Someone would be left stranded on some station in the middle of the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde, without the opportunity to get a return ticket.

[Jonathan Reynolds]

My hon. Friend makes a fine point. We have probably all had the experience of standing at Stockport station, perhaps on the way home, and working out that it is quicker to get back to London than to a place such as Stalybridge on public transport. That really illustrates the point.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is right. It is frustrating because someone can be so near to home, yet so far when they look at that board at Stockport station and realise that they have to wait for such a long time to get a connecting service to somewhere relatively close.

I know that Ministers are in the process of devolving powers to the mayor and the combined authority, which is right. We believe in devolution, and we know that our elected representatives in Greater Manchester have the capacity to take on those new powers, and to plan and prepare for a better transport system. We also need help and understanding from the Department for Transport, because where the transport system in Greater Manchester is today is not where we wish it to be. To get it to where we want it to be will require not only local leadership, direction and commitment, but also that same level of commitment and resources to flow from central Government.

I urge the Minister to answer the points that my hon. Friends have raised about electrification and orbital transport, and also, please, to give us some hope that this pause will not be for long. We desperately need a better transport system in all parts of Greater Manchester.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Thursday 16th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Jones]

The growth around Cambridge is encouraging and I hope that my hon. and learned Friend is encouraged by the fact that the Cambridgeshire schemes in the road investment strategy have a budget of more than £2 billion. The A10 is certainly an important north-south link providing access across Cambridgeshire, but it is for the local highways authority, the county council and the LEP to best decide what upgrades are needed. My hon. and learned Friend is a tenacious campaigner and I am sure they would be extremely wise to listen to her.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

When the Minister next meets the chief executive of Highways England to discuss the condition of the strategic road network, will he also have a word about the litter on that network, because some of the filthiest roads in my constituency, the M60 and the M67, are under the ownership of Highways England and it is clear that its maintenance arrangements are not adequate?

[Andrew Jones]

I will be having a monthly meeting with the chief executive of Highways England and I will raise that point with him. To be fair to Highways England, they are not the people who deposit the litter in the first place.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Thursday 11th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Jones]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced in December a fund of almost £6 billion to take us up to 2021, running at £976 million per annum, to support local highway authorities with their highway maintenance. I am sure the feedback that I suspect we all receive from our constituents will be supportive of that.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

The issue is not just about resources; it is about making sure that utility companies undertake proper reinstatement when they dig up the highway. Will the Minister look again at whether the regulations in respect of utility companies opening up the highways can be looked at afresh, so we can ensure our roads are reinstated to their proper condition?

[Andrew Jones]

The hon. Gentleman raises a very interesting point and I would be very happy to take that forward.

Harvey’s Law

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Monday 2nd March 2015 Westminster Hall

[Derek Twigg]

The hon. Lady makes a powerful point, and I think everybody would agree with it.

Let me return to Harvey’s case. By chance, an employee of the contractor used by the Highways Agency saw one of the fliers that had been distributed about Harvey. She contacted the owners via a message on Facebook and said that she had collected Harvey’s body on the M62. It was only by chance that the owners were given that information.

In 2010, the Highways Agency took the decision to withdraw the routine scanning of domestic pets from highways so that their owner could be identified and notified. Area management memo 67/05, which is being phased out—this is what we have been talking about—states that highways contractors are supposed to scan a domestic pet for a chip, check for other details and contact the owner if possible. They should complete a log with all the details and notify the relevant authorities. The animal should also be kept in cold storage for a period of seven days or until the freezer is emptied, whichever comes first.

There is an odd situation, therefore, in that the Highways Agency is changing that practice, whereas the Government—rightly so—are implementing a policy of compulsory microchipping for dogs from April 2016. One Department is rightly ensuring that there is a legal requirement to have a dog microchipped, whereas the Department for Transport is taking a different view that does not really sit with that policy. It is quite bizarre.

As we have heard in various interventions and seen in the information that we have all received, the death of a pet is traumatic and deeply upsetting for an owner in any case, but when an owner does not know its fate—when the pet has gone missing—the situation is made much worse by not knowing whether their pet is alive or dead. They spend time looking, which, as we have heard from case studies today, can turn out to be wasted. That is obviously very costly, and it also makes the situation all the more unbearable for the families and owners concerned.

Hundreds of pets—probably thousands—are killed on our roads each year. Apparently, the figure is more than 300 for Highways Agency-managed roads, although I think that is an underestimate. As a result of my discussion with Pauline Krause, I wrote to the Minister to raise concerns about the Highways Agency’s stance on notifying owners about the change in policy. The Minister wrote back, saying:

“The Agency is currently phasing out contracts which include the Area Management Memo 67/05 to which your constituent Ms Krause refers. More recent contracts no longer mandate Agency contractors to scan or record pet identification details, or to contact the owners and the pet identification organisations. I know this current position will be hugely disappointing for all those involved with Harvey’s Law e-petition.

Increased investment in the Strategic Road Network brings the opportunity to focus more on the service we deliver for our customers. This could include a review of our current policy around this issue so potentially there may be an opportunity to change contractual arrangements in the future.”

I will come back to this point, but I hope that the Minister will change those arrangements now. When he talks about “delivering for our customers”, I think pet owners can be put in that category.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making a very powerful case. Does he not agree that it seems contradictory for the Government to be mandating that pets should be microchipped—something that I very much support—but also instructing the Highways Agency that it is no longer a requirement for its contractors to notify the responsible authorities? If the Highways Agency does not have the scanners needed, it is easy to contact the local authority’s local dog warden service, which almost certainly will.

[Derek Twigg]

Again, I cannot disagree, but as I will come on to point out, the Highways Agency does actually have a lot of equipment. However, my hon. Friend makes a very good point, and I know that he takes a particular interest in this issue.

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[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) on securing this debate, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for ensuring that time was found to debate this important issue. From talking to him in our usual place on the back row of the Opposition Benches—the noisy row—I knew that he intended to apply for a debate on Harvey’s law, and I was delighted when he told me that his request had been successful. He is not a pet owner, but he set out the case for Harvey’s law with real understanding. I am grateful for the considered way in which he put to the Minister the case for a change of heart.

The strength of feeling on this issue is clear from the sheer tide of people who signed the e-petition and the many people who contacted right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House. Today’s contributions make it clear that there is great cross-party consensus on this issue. Many of my colleagues back the measure, and many Government Members back it, too.

Harvey’s law means a lot to all of us, and to our constituents. I will expand on that point shortly, but I will first declare an interest, albeit in a rather more benign way than many hon. Members did in the recent debate on second jobs. My wife, Allison, is a regular volunteer at the new Dogs Trust rehoming centre for Greater Manchester, which is in Denton in my constituency. The centre has been open for some four months, and I congratulate the Dogs Trust, its dedicated staff and volunteers on making such a success of it. Remarkably, the centre rehomed its 100th dog within a month of opening. The centre received 3,500 visitors in the same time frame, which shows that we cannot stand between Mancunians and their dogs, and I should know because I am a keen animal lover and pet owner. I currently have one Chihuahua, two cats—we had three, and I will come on to that shortly—and several chickens, but I blame my wife for those; they have completely trashed my back garden.

I am not a newcomer to the sorts of issues we are debating today, and I am therefore fully aware that the onus is not simply on those who look after motorways and roads. We dog owners must ensure that our animals are chipped and that the details on the database are up to date, which is not difficult. The Dogs Trust offers to update the database as a free service, by appointment, at all its rehoming centres, including the one in Denton. Across the UK, the trust chipped a remarkable 270,000 dogs in 2014 alone, which demonstrates that dog owners are doing their bit. We are upholding our side of the bargain, so we are now well within our rights to demand that local authorities and the Highways Agency does its bit when animals are killed on the nation’s roads.

Scanning microchips does not take a lot of time or effort, so for the sake of the peace of mind of worried dog owners, or owners of any other animals, particularly cats, which are also at risk on the roads, it is difficult to see how any reasonable opposition to Harvey’s law could be invented. Indeed, as we have heard in many contributions, it would be a little contradictory for the Government to force all dog owners to microchip their animals but not to introduce all reasonable measures to derive benefits directly from such a vast microchipping campaign. The only possible reason not to introduce the measure, as far as I can see, would be the cost to local authorities and the Highways Agency. Personally, I can think of few better uses for the fines that are to be levied on dog owners who do not microchip their dogs—I think the fine will be £500 a pop—so it should not be too long before the Highways Agency is able to buy a few scanners, if it needs them. My hon. Friend the Member for Halton said that the Highways Agency already has the scanners, which suggests that purchasing further scanners should not be necessary.

I have seen the freedom of information request from the Harvey’s law campaign, which suggests that each area covered by the Highways Agency, as my hon. Friend said, already has the necessary scanners, so the marginal capital costs would be negligible. Even if that were a problem, as we have already discussed, why not have a joined-up, cross-Government, cross-local government resolution? All local authority dog warden services have the scanners, so it is within the wit of the good folk at the Highways Agency, when an animal is found, to ask the relevant local authority to scan on their behalf if they do not have the technology. That point is particularly stark when we consider that until a few years ago, as we have heard, the Highways Agency had to scan all deceased pets found on the nation’s strategic highway network.

On the other side of the issue, we should consider the many wasted thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours that owners can put into searching for missing pets, as my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) said so eloquently. The emotional and pecuniary cost of a missing pet can be huge.

At the start of my contribution, I mentioned that until recently, I had three cats, not two. Last year we lost a cat to the road. Delilah was a lovely, friendly, gorgeous animal. She was a bit like a shadow: wherever we were, she was not far behind. Sadly, a car clipped her on a local road. It was heartbreaking. She was missing for 24 hours. It happened on a Thursday, and my wife was distraught when I got home after the long train journey from Westminster. I sat up all night, and every time the cat flap went, I hoped it was Delilah, but it was the other two cats; Delilah was, unfortunately, dead.

Pets are part of a family. My children were distraught, my wife was distraught and, to be honest, I was distraught, which is why I stayed up all night in the hope that she would come home. We were reunited with our pet only thanks to a local resident who picked up Delilah, put her in a box and called the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, which did a microchip test and contacted us to say that Delilah’s carcase was just around the corner from where we lived. That is important for closure, if nothing else. The same is true of the cases that my hon. Friend the Member for Halton described, which were tragic, particularly the one involving a dog that was stripped of its fur and used for all kinds of things that do not bear thinking about in relation to a missing pet.

It is still the responsibility of the Highways Agency to remove such animals from the nation’s roads. That, not the scanning, is the major cost incurred. We could save a lot of heartache for hundreds of families, arguably at negligible cost, if any cost, to the public purse. One avoidable cost that I do not think has been mentioned is that of removing from street furniture the posters alerting the local community to a missing pet. I do not condone fly-posting, but in that situation I can understand why many of my constituents, and no doubt many constituents of right hon. and hon. Members here, do it. However, it costs local authorities to remove those posters from lamp posts and trees.

Ministers have failed to manage the Highways Agency on this issue with any real effectiveness. I do not speak from a position of neutrality; I have had my fair share of local run-ins with the Highways Agency as Member of Parliament for Denton and Reddish, not least over its complete failure to keep the central reservations, hard shoulders and embankments of the M60 and M67 motorways free from litter. I perpetually table questions to the Minister on that issue. Sometimes the Highways Agency stretches my patience, and this is one area in which it could do better and should be expected to do so. I am perfectly happy to give credit where the Highways Agency deserves it. If it reintroduces routine scanning of every dog, I am prepared to stand up in the House of Commons and thank the Highways Agency for it, but the fact that it is even considering removing a fairly simple obligation is scandalous.

I note the consequences of the fire at Manchester dogs home, which is about 6 miles away from my constituency. The fire resulted in the death of more than 60 animals, one fifth of the number of dogs killed on our roads each year. Those dogs had no owners, but a campaign to rebuild the centre raised a remarkable £1.5 million through an online page. A cynic need only read some of the comments that people left with their donations to see the strength of feeling there. I would go so far as to say that the relationship between Brits and their dogs is almost unique in the world. That is no bad thing at all.

I am proud to be one of those dog owners, as well as a cat owner. I note that the Minister, a pet owner and the Minister responsible for the Highways Agency, has said that he would like the agency to start scanning again. Let us have some Government support for Harvey’s law. It is plain common sense. I urge him to go back to his Department and bash heads together at the Highways Agency. Let us get this done once and for all.

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[Mr Hayes]

I have said that the process will begin straight away, but it is helpful that the hon. Gentleman posed that question, because I am more than happy, following this debate, to write to all the Members who have contributed—I should perhaps put a copy of the letter in the Library of the House—setting out a timetable for the implementation of the commitment I have made today. That would be a fair and reasonable thing to do in response to the debate, to assure those who have been waging this campaign of the absolute certainty of the commitments I have offered. Notwithstanding the hon. Gentleman’s integrity, of which I have no doubt, it is important that I do that before the general election, because I am currently the Minister responsible for this area, and elections are funny old things. We will ensure that the measure is set in stone.

The even better news for those of us who are cat owners is that I want to ensure that where cats are involved in accidents, owners can be confident that we will endeavour to ensure that they are identified. Cats often have means of identification, so where a cat can reasonably be identified, its owner should be contacted in the same way. That is made more complicated—I do not want to be insensitive—by the fact that cats sometimes suffer in high-speed accidents the kind of injury that makes it difficult to identify them, but that will not stop us. We will use every possible endeavour and every practical means to identify cat owners.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Having lost one to the road, I thank the Minister for extending the commitment beyond dogs to cats. Will he recognise that although it is not compulsory—nor will it be compulsory—many responsible cat owners microchip their pets?

[Mr Hayes]

Yes, that is true, and it should make the commitment I have given easier to deliver. We will ensure that facilities are in place across the country to scan animals that are unhappily in the circumstances I have set out.

The Government take this matter extremely seriously. As soon as I heard about the case, I realised that the circumstance in which Harvey died was just not acceptable, for the reasons I gave at the outset. If we are made more human by the love of a pet, we need to understand that when a pet is lost and its fate is uncertain—my hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge (Margot James) made this point wonderfully—that eats at the hearts of all those involved. To paraphrase Dickens, what greater gift can there be than the love of a cat or dog?

Infrastructure Bill [Lords]

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Monday 26th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

rose—

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

rose—

[Amber Rudd]

I will make progress, but I assure hon. Members that I will let them intervene before I finish.

The environmental regulator adopts a risk-based approach to its assessment that is endorsed by the Royal Society. In addition, as was announced in Committee, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will direct the Environment Agency to require operators to undertake at least three months’ baseline monitoring of methane in groundwater before hydraulic fracturing can commence.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I want to take the Minister back to what she said about the use of secondary legislation. She will know, having been a Member of the House for a number of years, that secondary legislation is dealt with in a Committee that lasts a maximum of merely 90 minutes. We need to enshrine the environmental safeguards in primary legislation. Why is she so obsessed with not doing that?

[Amber Rudd]

I am only sorry that the hon. Gentleman did not have time to listen to the Committee, where we spent many, many hours debating this subject and many different subjects. That gave everyone a great opportunity to raise all the issues. There is no suggestion that there has not been enough time to address this matter.

[Andrew Gwynne]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Will you please rule on the Minister’s view, because she seems to be confusing the Bill Committee with an Order in Council committee, which lasts a mere 90 minutes?

[Mr Speaker]

I do not think that that is a matter for the Chair. Members must make their own assessment. The hon. Gentleman has made his assessment. For all I know, he might beetle around the Chamber to share it with others, but people will form their own assessment. Let us hear the Minister’s oration.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Williams]

That is similar to examples that I gave earlier, in which councils were conservative, with a small “c”, in their interpretation of the legislation. The Localism Act makes it clear that if 21 people come forward and say, “This is an asset of community value to us”, the local authority should list it unless the criteria set out in the Act apply. The Act contains nothing about compensation, requirements for business plans, or any of the other matters that campaign groups have brought to my attention. We are reviewing the Act, and I trust that all those concerns will be knocked on the head in due course.

[Andrew Gwynne]

The process described by the Minister seems incredibly convoluted, not least because if a listing application is made, the local authority will decide on the application, and it will then receive planning protections. Why not just give the planning protections in the first place, and allow the local authority to decide, through the planning process, whether or not the pub should be saved for the future?

[Stephen Williams]

Precisely for the reasons just outlined in an intervention from the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths), who has a very good record of campaigning in this area. A blanket protection for every single public house in the country, which is what the new clause envisages, would protect pubs that for various reasons are no longer enjoying the patronage of the community. In my constituency, lots of pubs have closed, but it is usually because of demographic change. Some parts of my constituency, which had a “white working-class community” 20 or 30 years ago, are now populated primarily by recently arrived Somalis and other people. Obviously the pubs in those areas have closed, and some have been converted to other uses, but some of them are still derelict. Is the hon. Gentleman really saying that in all those circumstances, whatever they might be, full planning permission should be required simply to change the use of a former pub to something that may be of benefit to the community?

The Government are proposing to look at the public houses that are genuinely popular and valued by the community now, giving them the protection that is already allowed under the Localism Act, and further enhancing that protection under the planning laws, saying, “You cannot convert this pub into another use or demolish it without planning permission.” That should address all the worries that people rightly have about the pubs that really are important to them.

National Policy Statement (National Networks)

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Tuesday 13th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Goodwill]

The first point to make on that is that the HS2 network is not within the scope of the NPS; it has its own separate hybrid Bill process. The vast majority of the schemes we are investing in are upgrading existing networks. Indeed, in the smart motorways scheme, we are using existing carriageway for hard-shoulder running. Some specific schemes will need land, such as—off the top of my head—the A14 Huntingdon bypass, which will be on new land, and one of the options for the lower Thames crossing would also require the procurement of land.

On the specifics of the NPS, the Select Committee raised some issues with the forecasts in its scrutiny of the draft NPS. The Government use a number of forecasts to allow us to understand the potential for a range of outcomes for road demand. The range of forecasts predict growth on the strategic road network of between 27% and 57% from 2013 to 2040. Rail passenger demand is predicted to continue to grow significantly. Total average growth in passenger kilometres is predicted to be just over 50% from 2011 to 2033, including phase 1 of HS2.

Long-term forecasting is challenging and we acknowledge that in the past we have over and under-forecast traffic. That mainly reflects inaccurate projections for the key drivers of traffic growth: population, GDP and oil prices, which are themselves uncertain, as anyone who is waiting to buy their first litre of petrol for £1 will no doubt agree. To reflect the uncertainty in these key drivers, we have presented a range of forecasting scenarios. It is notable that on this basis we expect greater divergence between traffic in different locations, but even on the lowest national traffic forecasts we will still see strong growth on the strategic road network that will increase congestion and crowding.

There is a similar picture for rail, where even low forecasts show more crowding, more congestion on rail lines and problems with reliability. It is important to understand that the forecasts in the NPS will not be used as the sole means to justify new developments. Individual schemes will also be required to use local models to justify schemes and to understand local impacts. Local modelling will remain an important part of the transport business case, which all road schemes funded by the Government will continue to be required to complete.

The NPS supports a significant and balanced package of improvements across the road and rail networks. Those improvements are accompanied by policies to support sustainable transport.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

Before the Minister moves off the subject of forecasting, may I press him a little on resilience? I know that this is an issue that my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) pushed in Committee, but of course it is not just about passenger or traffic growth but about the resilience of the transport network into the future, particularly given some of the problems we saw last year with flooding. What is the Government’s assessment of the future resilience of the national network?

[Mr Goodwill]

The first point to be made is that even during the bad weather and flooding we had last winter the strategic road network proved particularly resilient, as was High Speed 1, which, being built to a high specification, was able to cope with the weather. The hon. Gentleman is right that we must consider the resilience of our network, particularly the rail network, and that is why we commissioned one of the Department’s non-executive directors, Richard Brown, to look specifically at resilience, and particularly at what happened at Dawlish and the need for alternative routes. That is very important and the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that we should focus on it.

The appraisal of sustainability in the NPS shows that overall its environmental impact will be neutral. Yes, there might be some localised environmental impacts but they have been shown not to be significant, and the targeted measures to reduce pollution in areas of poor air quality, the commitment to tackle areas of the network that are vulnerable to flooding and noise and the huge support for ultra-low emission vehicles show how the NPS supports a sustainable package of measures.

The NPS is clear that road improvements must be delivered in an environmentally sensitive way and must look to improve environmental performance wherever possible. Much environmental good can be done as part of the investment programme, including introducing noise-reducing surfaces and sustainable drainage and eliminating bottlenecks in the system that push up emissions and worsen air quality.

As a result of the consultation and the debates in the other place, we have further strengthened environmental protections. For example, we now have a presumption against road widening or new roads in national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty. We have also made a number of other changes, including strengthening the text on biodiversity, landscape, land use and noise.

Reducing carbon is very important and that is why the Government have already set stretching and legally binding carbon budgets that will see a 50% reduction in emissions in 2025 compared with 1990 levels, on the path towards an 80% reduction by 2050.

[Mr Goodwill]

Buses are increasingly environmentally friendly. Indeed, the Government have put £106.5 million into cleaning up buses both by supporting the purchase of new low-emission buses and by funding the cleaning-up of older buses. Many people rely on the bus to get to work, particularly at the start of their careers. Bus priority lanes are also part of the process, which is why I and many others were surprised when Labour-run Liverpool decided to abandon the majority of its bus lanes.

Carbon impacts will continue to form a key part of the transport appraisal and decision-making process for road schemes. We also make it clear that any new schemes that would have a material impact on the ability of Government to meet their carbon reduction targets should not go ahead.

At the same time, the Government are committed to decarbonising roads. Investment of more than £900 million in ultra-low emission vehicles—December’s registration figures for such vehicles are very encouraging—and fuel efficiency regulations mean that we expect greenhouse gas emissions from motoring to drop in 2030 by about 20% from present day levels.

The Government take air quality seriously, and substantial weight will be given to air quality considerations where a project would lead to a significant air quality impact or to a deterioration in air quality. Not all new road schemes will present an air quality challenge. Air quality implications are complex, depending on a number of criteria relating to both the new road scheme itself and the wider area. It is important to take an holistic approach to improving air quality. That is why this Government are committed to large investment in a package of measures to support cleaner and more sustainable transport, which will also help to improve air quality.

Consent for a scheme will be refused if the air quality impacts result in a currently compliant zone becoming non-compliant, or affect the time scale of a zone becoming compliant. The Government have recently announced various initiatives to reduce local air pollution, including more than £900 million to support the uptake of ultra-low and zero-emission vehicle technologies between 2010 and 2020; £100 million for the road investment strategy specifically for air quality improvement; £2 billion for the electrification of the rail network, replacing dirty diesel trains with cleaner electric trains; and £600 million for the local sustainable transport fund, as well as the money for cleaning up older buses, which I have mentioned.

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way again. Is there anything in the new national networks policy that commits the Government to improving air quality on the existing strategic road network when it is in an air quality management area that exceeds EU safe standards?

[Mr Goodwill]

It is important to note that we have all agreed those EU standards at a European level. They are not being dictated to us by Europe; we agreed to them. It is important that we look at the reasons why air quality is deteriorating in some areas. The work that has been done on cleaning up buses has certainly helped in urban areas.

It is disappointing that, because of the economic problems under the previous Government, the car fleet was not renewed as quickly as we had predicted. Therefore, the older cars that produced more nitrogen oxides and other pollutants were not replaced as rapidly as they should have been. As we return to economic growth, with near record levels of vehicle registrations, more old dirty cars are going to the scrap heap and more new cars are getting on our roads, which will help. We can also use a number of mitigating factors on the strategic road network. For example, we are considering trialling barriers to try to channel pollution away from communities that are close to roads.

Transport

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Wednesday 7th January 2015 Ministerial Corrections

[Mr McLoughlin]

What I will confirm is that we are investing some £38 billion in the railways, which is more than any previous Government have invested. In 13 years, Labour electrified 10 miles of track. We will be electrifying more than 850 miles, which is a record of which this Government are incredibly proud.



An error has been identified in the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne).

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

What lessons has the Secretary of State learned from this sorry episode over the Christmas period? Does he recognise that the frustration comes not just from cancellations and long delays but from the complexity of the compensation system, with different train companies applying different terms and conditions? There are also times when people end up on a rail replacement bus having paid top fares for a rail journey.

[Mr McLoughlin]

The hon. Gentleman asks a number of questions. I will try to answer them all. The new franchises I am issuing have changed the way in which compensation is awarded, and they are a great improvement on those awarded by the previous Government. He also asked me about bus replacement services. If he wants us to carry out improvements on the network, alternatives have to be made available. I accept that our changes and improvements are an issue, but we are investing a record £38.5 billion in the railways between 2014 and 2019.

[Official Report, 5 January 2015, Vol. 590, c. 34.]

The correct response should have been.

Rail Network (Disruption)

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Monday 5th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr McLoughlin]

Indeed, and my right hon. Friend is absolutely right about the improvement in services in his area. We are hearing further calls for even greater improvements, particularly in capacity, as more people are using the railways. But I agree with him about what Chiltern Railways has done for his constituency and for the constituencies along that line.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

What lessons has the Secretary of State learned from this sorry episode over the Christmas period? Does he recognise that the frustration comes not just from cancellations and long delays but from the complexity of the compensation system, with different train companies applying different terms and conditions? There are also times when people end up on a rail replacement bus having paid top fares for a rail journey.

[Mr McLoughlin]

The hon. Gentleman asks a number of questions. I will try to answer them all. The new franchises I am issuing have changed the way in which compensation is awarded, and they are a great improvement on those awarded by the previous Government. He also asked me about bus replacement services. If he wants us to carry out improvements on the network, alternatives have to be made available. I accept that our changes and improvements are an issue, but we are investing a record £38.5 billion in the railways between 2014 and 2019. [Official Report, 7 January 2015, Vol. 590, c. 2MC.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Thursday 4th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

My hon. Friend is right that when one looks at infrastructural spending one needs to do so on a consensual basis. For example, both Front-Bench teams will be working together on the Infrastructure Bill to make sure, irrespective of party, that it provides a foundation for the future. It is absolutely right that when we look at these things we should cut across narrow party divides.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

One of the best ways of tackling road congestion is to have proper inter-modal integration. The Minister might know that the M60-M67 junction interchange at Denton is not just one of the most dangerous in the country but one of the most congested, and currently subject to pinch-point infrastructure works. Next to it is Denton station, which has the most pathetic rail service in the country, with just one train, in one direction only, once a week. Will he bang heads together at Northern Trains, Network Rail and Transport for Greater Manchester so that we can have a proper train service from Denton into Manchester, as that will be crucial as part of the northern hub work?

[Mr Speaker]

I was going to suggest that the hon. Gentleman apply for an Adjournment debate on the subject until I realised that he had already had it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

May I ask the Leader of the House how far he intends to take the logic of English votes for English laws, given that with the devolution to Greater Manchester I will no longer be able to vote, as a Greater Manchester MP, on many of those issues, but will be able to vote on those same issues in the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency?

[Mr Hague]

I have invited the Opposition to present their own proposals, but they have refused to take part in any discussions with the Cabinet Committee. I wrote last week to the deputy leader of the Labour party to ask it to present its proposals that we could publish in the Command Paper I have just been talking about. I have not yet had any positive response to that. The hon. Gentleman might want to encourage that response. It is very important of course that whatever solution we arrive at is fair to all parts of the United Kingdom, but that includes being fair to the voters of England as well as to the rest of the UK.

Local Bus Services

Andrew Gwynne Excerpts

Wednesday 5th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mary Creagh]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and only this morning I met Councillor John McNicholas from Coventry to discuss some of the issues with Centro and the west midlands.

I want to talk about three big issues. The first is why buses are so important to our economy, and the second is what has happened to buses under this Government. Finally, I will set out how a Labour Government will empower local authorities to take control of local transport.

Let me begin with why buses are important. Buses give people the freedom to work, learn, explore new places and connect with new people. Nearly 5 billion bus trips are made in Britain each year, and three times more trips are made by bus than by train. Buses take the unemployed to job interviews and to work, and they take young people to their exams, colleges and into their futures.

I congratulate Councillor Liam Robinson, chair of Merseytravel, who spotted that young people from larger families were not turning up to school on Thursdays and Fridays. Why? Their families had run out of money for bus fares. He negotiated a young person’s ticket where the fare is capped at £2 a day instead of £1.30 a journey. The number of bus users has grown as a result, and young people in Liverpool and Merseyside no longer miss out on their education.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is right to mention the affordability of bus services. Is she aware that in Manchester, for example, to travel six miles on buses costs more than £3, yet here in London that same six-mile journey using an Oyster card would cost just £1.45? Do we not need affordable public transport too?

[Mary Creagh]

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, and I was talking to Councillor Andrew Fender only this morning about some of the difficulties faced in the Greater Manchester area. If someone travels over a whole day in London within certain zones their bus fare will be capped at £4.40, but if they live anywhere outside London their fare is not capped and they pay far more.

Buses take people to the GP and to hospital appointments. When I visited Plymouth in July, Labour council leader Tudor Evans, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) and Labour candidate Luke Pollard told me how a previous short-sighted Tory city council had sold off the city’s municipal bus company. [Interruption.] We heard the word “excellent” from the hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price). I am sure her constituents would be pleased to hear that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mary Creagh]

I aspire to a country in which even the Duchess of Westminster travels on the Clapham omnibus—or even the Westminster omnibus.

We know that the rise in bus fares has disproportionately affected the frail and the vulnerable, as well as young jobseekers and those on low incomes without access to a car. We know, too, that in some rural areas, bus services have all but disappeared—the result of this Government’s deep cuts to supported services, which my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) mentioned. Freedom of information requests by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) uncovered the fact that local authority bus subsidies across shire counties were cut by 23% in real terms between 2010 and 2014. Conservative Northamptonshire county council cut its subsidy by 55%, and Conservative-run Suffolk by 50%.

In cities outside London, there is a chaotic mix of local control over trams and metros, private provision of buses and nationally operated rail franchises—no integrated ticketing, no real-time information and no fares information at the bus stop. The bus companies say, “Ask the driver”, but can we imagine going to Tesco for a loaf of bread and being told that we have to take it to the checkout to find out the price? There is often no usable map of the bus networks and their connections. Instead, different bus companies compete for fares.

[Andrew Gwynne]

Is not the issue here that Transport for London set the frequency and set the standards and bus companies bid to be part of the network, whereas Transport for Greater Manchester does not currently have those powers so that private bus companies set the network and TFGM has to infill with minuscule resources that it does not have?

[Mary Creagh]

That is indeed an important point. The competition in London happens at the point of contracting the routes, whereas in Manchester the theoretical competition happens on the road. I was on a bus in Manchester last Friday, so I know my hon. Friend makes an important point about the sort of private provision and the sort of competition that benefit not just people, but our economy, jobs and growth. If we do not have transport mobility, we will not have social mobility because people will not be able to move out of their areas to look for work, further their education and better themselves.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mary Creagh]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Perhaps we should have a bell that Members can ring.

I am not sure that I should say who attended the summit. Officers from Devon county council attended, as did one Conservative leader, but I am not sure that he would be pleased with me if I named him. [Hon. Members: “Name him!”] No, I will not. It is for me to know and for other Members to find out. [Interruption.] It was not a secret summit. All 105 city and county leaders were invited.

At the summit, we discussed how London-style powers could bring more small and medium-sized bus companies into a market in which five big companies take 70% of the business. We noted that those five operators all complain about a regulated market outside London, but are happy to operate in a regulated London bus market. We discussed how the voice of the passenger left waiting at a bus stop could be heard, how we could overcome the barriers to open data about buses, how ticketing could be linked with trams and trains, and how interchanges could be made easier. We also discussed the fact that communities can be isolated just a mile from a city centre if there is no bus, which is what happens on the Peacock estate in Wakefield.

On Monday, Stagecoach claimed that it could deliver multi-operator Oyster-style ticketing across the country by 2015, which came as a surprise to many Members. We know that unless the law is changed, it will not be able to deliver multi-operator tickets with a daily price cap. Stagecoach has also claimed that politicians are

“peddling the myth that London is best”

for buses. This morning, however, one councillor referred to London as the “magic kingdom” of buses. London has 7 million regular Oyster card users. In contrast, the Secretary of State this morning heaped praise on Centro in the west midlands for having just 3,000 smart card users.

I want to seize this opportunity to fix the broken bus market. The current problems stem from an over-centralised state, and the Government have done nothing to change that. All local authorities face different transport challenges. Only when public transport, cycling and walking become attractive options will they grow and improve.

I do not think it is fair that only London provides passengers with one ticket for every form of public transport, always guaranteeing the lowest fare and capping daily bus usage at £4.40.

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is right to mention the multi-modal travel that is made possible by the Oyster card. If someone began a journey in Manchester on the train, transferred to Metrolink and then transferred to a bus, people would think that they were absolutely bonkers. Not only do those three travel modes not join up, but it is not possible to obtain a single ticket that can be used on all of them.

[Mary Creagh]

My hon. Friend has made another excellent point. I have experienced that myself. When I caught a tram from the station, a return journey cost £1.50, and I then had to take a bus to the venue, which cost £1.40.

I do not think it is fair that only London provides audio-visual announcements on all buses for the benefit of deaf, blind and partially sighted people. I do not think it is fair that only London provides seamless interchanges with real-time information that makes door-to-door journeys easy. When I was visiting—I think—Milton Keynes, a lady said to me “We call them ghost buses. You stand at the bus stop and you see from the countdown that buses are coming, but when they are due, they just do not turn up. Why are there these ghost buses in the system?” We know that there are problems with technology and other equipment, but why are the problems ironed out in some cities and not in others? Labour will ensure that cities are given the powers they need to take control of their transport system, no longer playing second fiddle to the capital. Bus provision where cities let the routes will unlock efficiencies to cut fares, run more buses and invest in growing the network. Bus provision must become quicker and easier to achieve. We want a bus market that is growing, not dying by a thousand cuts.

Transport plays a vital role in driving economic growth. Devolution is important and control over transport is important, but transport is much more than that. It has profound effects on us as people and on the places where we live. It affects our health, our environment and our quality of life. Buses are the lifelines of our cities, towns and villages. Buses enable people to get to work, bring jobs and growth to our high streets, reduce isolation and ensure mobility for those unable to drive.

Labour is the party of the bus user. In government over 13 years we increased funding for buses from £774 million in 1997 to £2.3 billion in 2010.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

rose—

[Andrew Gwynne]

rose—

[Mr McLoughlin]

I have three choices. I will go to Chesterfield first.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr McLoughlin]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I have no doubt that that route is going to be restored as a result of the bus company taking notice of the campaign that he led. I would recommend such action to all Members of Parliament. Perhaps I can also set the record straight in relation to Milton Keynes. The scheme to which the hon. Member for Wakefield referred was in fact started by Milton Keynes council when it was Conservative controlled. The pressure for it came from my Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), who has a long-standing interest in transport, having also served on the Transport Select Committee. He, too, knows a bit about campaigning for good services for local constituents.

[Andrew Gwynne]

It is all fine and well for private bus companies to have smart card technology on their buses, but does not the Secretary of State understand that what we want is proper integration between the various modes of public transport? We want a single pricing structure across all those modes so that my constituents in Greater Manchester—and others outside Manchester and London—can move from train to tram to bus easily.

[Mr McLoughlin]

I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman on the desirability of easier access to the various modes of public transport, whether in relation to the trams and buses in his own area or to other forms of inter-modal change. He is absolutely right. When people turn up in a city that they are new to, they need to be able to get a better understanding of the public transport there, rather than having to find their way through a maze of information. I hope that recent advances in technology—they were not there five years ago so I cannot blame the last Government for not implementing them—will mean that bus and tram operators can all provide the much better service that passengers want for the longer term.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne]

I commend the work of my hon. Friend’s Committee in highlighting many of these issues. In my constituency, a deregulated transport system means that Audenshaw now has a really good bus service provided by Stagecoach trying to compete with a really good tram service provided by Transport for Greater Manchester, providing good alternative public transport, but along the A57 corridor, through Denton, where there is no alternative tram or train provision, we have a skeleton bus service. We have the worst of both worlds. We are paying more and getting less.

[Mrs Ellman]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. At the moment, the system does not allow proper integration to meet the transport needs of people across an area. We must always remember that deregulation was never introduced for the whole of the country. London was always left out, and that is why the London system has thrived while we have experienced all the problems elsewhere. It is certainly true that there are many local areas where the local authorities have innovated and used some of the provisions of the Transport Act 1985 to develop partnerships that could be successful—when the Transport Committee looked at what was happening in Oxford, we were impressed by what we saw, and individual Members will all have their own experiences—but they are examples and not the system that affects the majority of people.

Community transport, which was mentioned by the Secretary of State, is also important. When we did our work, looking at what is happening in isolated communities where services are being withdrawn, we found some good examples of community transport. However, community transport, which is run mainly by volunteers, cannot fill the gap that is created when local bus services are withdrawn. It simply cannot do that.

On the last information we had, about 47% of local authorities were being forced to reduce their subsidies to local bus services because of cuts in their expenditure. It looks as if the withdrawal of local services will be a growing problem: commercial services simply withdraw when they are not making a profit, and local authorities are under increasing financial pressure. Unless something different happens, there will be a reduction in services in areas where this affects vulnerable people.

Services on busy transport routes, which are profitable and used by significant numbers of people, will not be withdrawn because private operators will continue to operate them. There are many other areas, however, where bus services are a lifeline for people—I am talking about people who need buses to get to work or to try to get a job—but are being withdrawn. In the evening, people want to go out, but there may not be sufficient numbers to create a profitable service, so such services are being withdrawn. The difficulty is not on busy routes where there are large numbers of people and where there might be some competition—although we have a virtual monopoly situation—but in all the other areas, affecting millions of people.

I think it has been recognised that something needs to be done. In the last Parliament, the Local Transport Act 2008 introduced quality contracts, which was seen as a way of trying to address the problem. Many Members felt that it did not go far enough, but it was progress on the system that had been inherited. It was a matter of regret that the then Opposition opposed that Act. I was surprised by that and found it difficult to understand. There were also those who felt that the Act should have gone further.

Quality contracts have not solved the problem. The North East combined authority comprises the only group of transport authorities that got close to securing a quality contract. It is now consulting on some admirable proposals, but it has taken a long time to get there. The whole process has been protracted and difficult, as the authority had not only to negotiate with a number of people but to face opposition from some of the transport operators. I hope it is successful, as it is making great efforts. The proposals it has put together offer a great deal of promise to the people in their areas.

The Government must recognise that more needs to be done. The current devolution proposals that have been put forward include the plan for the Greater Manchester combined authority to be given transport powers, very much along the lines of the powers that already exist in London. I welcome that move, but if those powers are going to be good enough for the combined authority in Manchester, why can they not be made available for other transport authorities as well?

It is a matter not of imposing a system everywhere, but of permitting local authorities and transport authorities to acquire those powers if they want to do so. At the moment, that cannot be done, but I wish the combined authority proposal great success in Manchester, and I hope that it can be proffered in other areas as well.

Buses matter for millions of people across the country. It is high time that they were part of a national debate. I hope that as a result of today’s debate, and all the other discussions and investigations of bus services, buses get a much higher profile and secure more national recognition and more Government support. Yes, we should encourage variety and innovation, but we should recognise that the deregulation of buses has not, of itself, brought about massive competition to the benefit of passengers. Outside London, it has led to a reduction in bus usage, and we must reverse that everywhere.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend will know that Greater Manchester Buses was split into two companies, one in the north and the other in the south of the conurbation. In his constituency, the buyer was First Bus and in my part of the conurbation it was Stagecoach. We now have, in effect, two private monopolies.

[Graham Stringer]

We do indeed, and I will deal with why the deregulated system does not work. Partly it is because on-road competition cannot work, as there simply is not enough space for the buses. When competition has been tried, it has led to massive congestion.

Let us look in detail at what has happened in the major metropolitan areas. The bus companies have gamed the system. They have not responded as one would expect in a competitive private sector area, by responding to what the customer wants; they have responded to where the subsidy is. So networks have contracted, as the companies could make a bigger profit on the major routes; and services have been withdrawn, so that the companies could get direct subsidy in franchised systems and larger amounts of money. It is a fact that every bus that goes out of a depot has a 50% subsidy attached to it, one way or another. This is not a private competitive market responding to customers; it is a private market responding to a subsidy regime.

So I am not surprised when Martin Griffiths, the Stagecoach chief executive, says something like the following, although his nose must have grown a great deal when he did so:

“The truth is that England’s city regions have significantly lower fares and higher customer satisfaction than London, as well as having access to frequent, integrated bus services and smart ticketing.”

I do not know what he was on when he said that; the bus fares are higher, and they have regularly increased by more than inflation and by more than increases in London. We know why Stagecoach is happy: it has been extraordinarily successful at gaining the subsidies.

I have no objection to business people making a profit for providing goods and services, and doing it well. The fact is that Brian Souter and his sister have made £1 billion. Does anybody think that has come from providing a better service and improving our bus services in the major metropolitan areas of this country? Of course it has not. It has come from knowing how to get to the subsidy and how to move the bus services in order to get there. That partly shows the answer to the point raised by the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) about where the money will come from. The capital return on investment in buses in the English regions is twice what it is in London. Why should the people I represent in north Manchester be giving Stagecoach and First Group twice the profit because they are operating in a deregulated system? If we put this out to proper competition in a franchised system that was open and fair, so that the more competitive bus company won, those profit levels would go down to a level similar to that in London, and with some of that money we would be able to improve the service. The only evidence we have of a franchise system within England, Wales and Scotland is the one in London, and it managed for the first 13 or 14 years after deregulation, when the companies were regulated, to run services with very low fare increases and maintain the number of passengers, whereas in the rest of England the numbers decreased by 50%. Those companies managed that without subsidy, so I think that in the metropolitan areas we, too, would have a better service and we would not be going to the Exchequer for more money.

I will finish with a plea. I was delighted with the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s announcement about Greater Manchester and what he was saying about re-regulating the buses. This is not an ideological battle and nor should it be one. The fact is there is a simple way of improving services in the major metropolitan areas, which is by making it easier to have a London-style system and allow franchises. That would help everybody.