Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill (Sixth sitting)

Alan Brown Excerpts

Committee Debate: 6th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 14th November 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Hayes]

I will take that, Sir Edward, with the courtesy that you deserve, as a bid and consider it alongside other helpful suggestions.

So, the design competition will be launched shortly. A combination of that readily recognised design, with the pervasive policy that will result from the work that we are going to do with other Government Departments and the powers we are taking here, will mean that, as with the old red telephone boxes, when they were more common, and pillar boxes that still are, people will know exactly what a charging point looks like and how they can access one.

Perhaps inspired by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, I want to deal with the matter of rural areas, which is not in my notes. I am mindful of the experience of mobile telephone coverage or the roll-out of broadband. Members of the Committee who represent rural areas who, if they have not said something already, will at least be thinking, what about Dorset, Lincolnshire or Cornwall? We love driving on the main arterial routes, but will we be neglected? I think we need to do more work on that. We have mentioned major retailers in the Bill, but by their nature they may well be disproportionately located in the places where populations are concentrated and where most vehicles travel, and not in the rural areas represented by a number of members of this Committee.

We should think creatively about how to ensure that rural areas are not neglected. We must not end up with an inadequate number of charging points in parts of the country and therefore a disadvantage for the people of, for example, Gainsborough. I know you would not want that, Sir Edward. That is an additional consideration that I offer the Committee. I do not think it is an automatic consequence of the Bill, but it should accompany it as a further piece of work. There may be ways in which we can encourage certain local authorities. There may be ways to monitor and then ensure a consistent roll-out of charge points across the country. This is not unlike the suggestion that was made by the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington about how we might apply different aspects of the policy in different ways at different locations.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

I welcome those comments, but obviously this will not be in the Bill. How can we make sure that the work goes ahead on assessing rural capability and the actual roll-out in rural areas?

[Mr Hayes]

This part of the Bill facilitates a regulatory environment that would allow us to address a range of challenges. The Bill anticipates regulations, though I do not yet know whether this needs to be done by regulation or whether it can be done by other means. I wanted to highlight that I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern. I know that the Committee felt that there is, not a risk or a likelihood, but a possibility that we might end up concentrating charge points, even though they are interoperable and easily accessible and wonderfully recognisable and beautiful, and that rural areas would consequently be at a disadvantage. I will look at the matter closely and see whether we need regulation, or whether we can use other means.

I must say a word about amendment 3, as it is the subject of the debate. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East suggests that we require the Secretary of State to consult charge point operators and vehicle manufacturers before regulating. I can absolutely assure him that we will be consulting charge point operators and vehicle manufacturers before we make regulations. He has my certain assurance that that consultation will take place. I do not feel that the amendment is necessary, because it is implicit in the way in which the Government will go about their work. Ruskin said:

“Remember that the most beautiful things in the world are the most useless; peacocks and lilies for instance.”

That does not mean that useful things must be ugly. It is perhaps true that the most beautiful things are useless, but let us make useful things as beautiful as they can possibly be.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

I know that when I display my scepticism about the free market, it excites my Opposition friends whose views on such things are closely aligned with mine. I have to say, however, that the market is not entirely undesirable. We hope that through co-operation and collaboration, consultation and discussion, we can bring about a happy series of outcomes. We want to work with manufacturers and industry to ensure that we get to the destination that we all seek, but the regulations ensure that if we do not get there, we take the powers. My view is simple: we will introduce regulations when it is necessary to do so. We will not regulate unless we have to. As my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset said, there seem to be persuasive arguments that if we do not establish the ability and, in some instances, the actuality to do so, the market will not necessarily deliver all these outcomes, but that is a matter to gauge when we see how things develop. The important thing is that the Committee can be proud of putting in place the means by which Government can do just that.

[Alan Brown]

Building on the Minister’s commitment to look at the considerations for the roll-out in rural areas, I make a plea for him to consider the associated factors that need to be taken into account, such as mobile coverage or communications connections. I ask him to take account of those wider issues to get the full big picture of what is required to enable roll-out.

[Mr Hayes]

I am a great believer in allowing one’s ideas to formulate and develop through scrutiny. I am inclined to say that we should do a mapping exercise to see where charge points are now and where we envisage them developing in the short term, and to identify the further steps that need to be taken at an early stage. With the other technologies that the hon. Gentleman and I have mentioned, we are playing catch-up. Good work has been done by this Government, the previous Government and the Government before that in trying to get there, but anticipating some of those problems by doing a detailed mapping exercise might allow us to take early steps of the kind that the hon. Gentleman and I wish to see. I commit to do that as a result of this scrutiny.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

The amendments and the new clause address the issues of consultation and review, as the hon. Gentleman briefly set out. I could give a short version of my speech and simply say to him, “Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes,” but I am not sure that that would satisfy the more demanding members of this Committee, so let me explain what I mean.

The hon. Gentleman is right that consultation must be part of the continuing determination to ensure that the objectives of the Bill are met. I am determined that we should consult with the National Grid, large fuel retailers and others before making regulations. I completely agree with him that it will be important to consult a wide range of stakeholders on making regulations under these powers, and that will include the devolved Administrations detailed in amendment 13.

The hon. Gentleman will note that we have an obligation, set out in clause 15(3), to do so:

“Before making regulations under this Part, the Secretary of State must consult such persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.”

It is right that the hon. Gentleman asks, “Well, who does the Secretary of State consider appropriate?”, because these are broad powers. It would certainly include all the organisations he has mentioned and, by the way, others across the industry. The providers of charge points and others must be consulted, as I have emphasised throughout our consideration of the Bill. He can have the binding assurance from me that we will consult in precisely the way his amendment suggests.

Furthermore, I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the business of review. Given that I have emphasised, as I think have other members of the Committee, that this is a rapidly changing area of work, with evolving technology—the modest nature of the Bill means that we know more will need to be done, both in secondary legislation and, I suspect, beyond—it is important that we keep a close eye on how things are developing.

I have already agreed, as a result of the brief exchanges between myself and the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, both today and in earlier consideration of these matters, that we should map the provision of charge points across the country. It is very important that we monitor closely how charge points are rolled out. We have spoken about workplaces, local authorities, service stations and so on and so forth, but we need to get a clear view about where the concentrations of charge points are and what needs to be done to fill in any gaps that emerge.

More than that, it is appropriate to review more generally. I draw the attention of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East to the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015, in particular to section 28. He will remember, probably having debated it at other times and in other places, that section 28 creates a

“Duty to review regulatory provisions in secondary legislation”—

in my judgment, absolutely properly. Section 28(2) makes it clear that:

“The Minister must—

(a) make provision for review in the secondary legislation in which the regulatory provision is made…or

(b) publish a statement that it is not appropriate in the circumstances to make provision for review in that legislation”.

Either the Minister must justify why he is not reviewing, or review.

My strong indication to the Committee is that in those circumstances, we would want to review and consider the ramifications that result from the legislation, for the very reasons I have just given. It is a rapidly evolving and changing field and we want as much debate and scrutiny of it as possible. It is not a matter of contention, but a case of the whole Committee—indeed, the whole House—wanting to get it right. There is provision for us to do so; we have committed to that in clause 15. For those reasons, and with the strong assurances I have offered, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment.

[Alan Brown]

I agree with the principle of amendment 7, and it is good that the Minister says he will take that on board and do the necessary consultation. New clause 5 is about annual review, reporting and updating Parliament, so I would like to hear a wee bit more about how the Minister will do that kind of review of the uptake of electric vehicles and feed back to Parliament, working out, if necessary, what targeted interventions might be required on the back of that.

The Minister said that he would consult the devolved Administrations listed in amendment 13, which appears in my name. I welcome that, but the whole purpose of the amendment was to get the involvement of the devolved Administrations into the Bill, to absolutely ensure that it happens. Based on his earlier intervention, I am sure that the hon. Member for Stirling would agree with that concept.

Certainly, there are advantages to a UK-wide approach, and that requires the involvement of the devolved Administrations. For example, Scotland has its own electric and automated vehicles strategy, which was announced in this year’s programme for government. Scotland is trying to take a lead in the roll-out of such vehicles, and we have set a target of 2032 as opposed to 2040. If the Bill had not been so tight, I would have tabled an amendment to bring forward the 2040 deadline, but unfortunately I have not been able to do so. There is a different strategy in Scotland, and the UK Government need to take that on board, with the Scottish Government.

Scotland has an excess of commercial and academic expertise in smart grids and data management, and we need to ensure that that expertise is tapped into in the consultation and brought forward for the benefit of everyone. I have mentioned the Scottish Government; clearly, other devolved Administrations might have their own priorities that need to be fed in as well. The Minister said that he would give that assurance, but I will look to see how it is taken forward and whether we need to revisit amendment 13 on Report.

I am happy not to push the amendment to a vote; I am just looking for that certainty on an ongoing basis. The Minister is probably aware, regarding the Brexit negotiations just now, that the Scottish and Welsh Governments have raised concerns that they are not fully involved and are getting overlooked. We cannot be in a position where decisions are imposed on the devolved Administrations without consultation and without those decisions being agreed.

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Gentleman is not the first, and will not be the last, to clamour to hear more from me, but I do not want to tire the Committee unduly. I have given the commitment that he will have heard about the consultation, but just in case he is uncertain about the good will that lies behind it, let me say, merely on the grounds of unvarnished self-interest, that the Government would certainly want to consult, because we want to get this right. Frankly, there is little for the Government to lose from that kind of dialogue with the devolved Administrations and the whole of the industry. Any responsible Government would want to engage in such dialogue and consultation. I do not suggest for a moment that the hon. Gentleman does not trust my good will, but just in case he does not want to depend on it, I assure him that it is in the Government’s interests to ensure that we get this absolutely right.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill (Fifth sitting)

Alan Brown Excerpts

Committee Debate: 5th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 14th November 2017 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I remind everyone to ensure that all electronic devices are turned off or switched to silent mode.

Clause 4

Accident resulting from unauthorised software alterations or failure to update software

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

I beg to move amendment 11, in clause 4, page 3, line 13, at end insert—

‘, provided that the vehicle manufacturer has made all reasonable efforts to—

(a) notify the owner of a vehicle about the need for an update of the vehicle’s operating system

(b) provide the relevant update of the vehicle’s operating system to the owner or insured person, and

(c) arrange for the installation and update of the vehicle’s operating system.’

This amendment would ensure the manufacturer has made every possible effort to inform the owner of the vehicle that a software update is needed before liability is passed to the owner.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 12, in clause 4, page 3, line 36, at end insert

‘(7) The Secretary of State must by regulations establish a system by which an automated vehicle may only be approved for driving itself on public roads if all application software is up to date.’

This amendment would require the Government to introduce regulations to establish a system that requires automated vehicle software to be up to date in order for them to utilise automated functions on public roads.

New clause 9—Updates to software and operation of automated vehicles—

‘The Secretary of State must bring forward regulations to require that automated vehicles cannot operate in automated mode on public roads unless the application software relating to the vehicle’s automated function is up to date.’

This new clause would require the Government to introduce regulations that require automated vehicles to be up to date in order for them to utilise automated functions on public roads.

[Alan Brown]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Bailey. I note that you wisely ducked out just before I spoke yesterday in Westminster Hall, right enough—no such luck this morning.

Clause 4 is all about liabilities associated with operational software for automated vehicles. Amendments 11 and 12 aim to strengthen the clause and amendment 11 aims to clarify the responsibilities of the vehicle manufacturer. In turn, that may even assist the vehicle manufacturer with regards to clause 4(1)(b), which refers to whether a person ought to reasonably know about safety-critical software updates being required. We are using the right terminology, and it is hoped that the law meets its intended purpose both of ensuring that people are insured and of clarifying where liabilities are limited for insurance companies.

If the Bill sets out how important it is that safety-critical software is updated, it follows that duties are placed on the manufacturers to take all reasonable steps to ensure that that happens. Therefore, as with smartphones, the manufacturer must notify the owner of the need for upgrades but, unlike smartphones, it needs to be much more than a simple notification. Steps need to be undertaken to ensure that the vehicle owner is aware of the need for upgrades and to make arrangements for them to happen. There could be a series of warnings through the software, or written letters and correspondence. Given the sophistication of the software, and its interactive nature, in that it tries to talk to software on other servers, perhaps even some form of remote immobilisation could be considered. If those steps are followed, any evidence of the deliberate overriding of adaptations undertaken by the owner will fall within the insurance liability limitations outlined in clause 4.

Amendment 12 follows on from that, requiring the Government to introduce regulations to establish a system that requires automated vehicle software to be up to date in order to utilise automated functions on public roads. It might be argued that the amendment is not required, that it simply dots the i’s and crosses the t’s, but given that that function of the software is the brain of the vehicle, it is absolutely incumbent on the Government to ensure that there is a system for explicitly determining that the software is safe, and able to be used.

I suggest that new clause 9 serves the same function as amendment 12. I am therefore supportive of it in principle, but there is a logic in amendments 11 and 12 being put in with clause 4, to tighten it up.

[Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) (Con)]

I want to make a brief contribution. I mentioned in a previous sitting that I chair the all-party parliamentary group on insurance and financial services. We have looked into this area in some detail and I think it is fair to say that across the industry there is a lot of support for the Bill, which is good news. The industry is appreciative of the fact that the Bill is moving forward at pace, and of the Minister’s approach to that. However, we think there is a definite opportunity to tighten the wording in clause 4(1)(b), as there seems to be scope for conflict between different parties in two areas.

First, regarding the phrase

“insured person knows, or ought reasonably to know, are safety-critical”,

one of the consequences is that there might be a legitimate reason for software not being installed: a vehicle might be on a journey, there might be no signal or someone might have to use a vehicle in an emergency. The wording is open to interpretation and one of the consequences of that could be delays in paying out claims.

My second point is whether a safety-critical update was contributory either in whole or in part to an accident. Without tightening up the wording, there could be delays in the settling of claims, potential higher claims costs, and more data—data was raised quite a bit in the evidence sessions—being required to settle claims and to establish cause. Again, a knock-on effect is that the full potential of cost savings on insurance might not be fully recognised because of the cost involved in deciding on liability.

With those two points in mind it seems sensible to shift the onus from the insured person for the safety-critical update directly on to the manufacturer in all cases. We know the technology is there. It is available either to not enable the vehicle to start if a safety-critical update is not put in place or—this is probably more reasonable—to not enable a vehicle to access the automated mode unless all safety-critical software issues are up to date. Those are just a couple of points that I wanted to raise with the Minister which perhaps he will consider when he responds to the amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Gentlemen implies that those things are mutual exclusive. Of course, if someone intentionally—deliberately—goes about the business of not updating their vehicle, that creates a responsibility and a liability. That has ramifications of the kind that I described for insurers, but it also has the wider ramifications that he described. I do not think we are in different places on that.

Let me turn briefly to the comments made by the shadow Minister. Again, I can see why he makes that point, but as he knows, we will shortly discuss clause 5, which gives the right of recovery against the person actually responsible for the incident, whoever that responsible person is. We can probably deal with the matter he raises when we debate clause 5, rather than adding to this clause in the way he suggests. His intent is entirely understandable but I do not think this is the best place to make the amendment that he proposes. With that, and my commitment to take further the point that my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire raised, and the more general commitment I have made, reflecting my original remarks about the ambitions of the Bill, the limits on those ambitions, and the development of further regulation, I do hope that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun and others will see fit not to press their amendments.

[Alan Brown]

I have listened to the Minister and to the comments that have been made. Amendment 11 is still about putting additional responsibilities on the manufacturer, which seems to accord with some of the comments made by the hon. Member for North Warwickshire. The Minister agreed to take on board those comments, but I felt he was a little dismissive of amendment 11. I would like to press amendment 11 to a vote, but I will not press amendment 12.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill (Fourth sitting)

Alan Brown Excerpts

Committee Debate: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 2nd November 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

I apologise for not understanding, but will the Minister explain further how the Road Traffic Act 1988 covers the specific example of an automated vehicle transitioning from automatic to driver mode, or vice versa?

[Mr Hayes]

I will be happy to do that when further inspiration reaches me. In the interim, while I wait for that inspiration, I will say that we recognise the need to ensure that the transition controls are safe. It is of value to emphasise that research, including some being carried out in the UK, will help to determine a safe transition process to inform international safety standards of the kind I mentioned earlier. In essence, therefore, the field is a developing one in which those international standards are being built on. Research is taking place here and elsewhere.

The research that we spoke briefly about in the witness sessions is such that it includes the development of software to take account of endless eventualities that might occur while a vehicle is being driven or driving itself. The work being done is to simulate a range of road conditions and circumstances in which any car might find itself at any point in time on any kind of road. That is of course as numerous as might be imagined, but the aim is to have software that is clever enough to deal with all kinds of driving circumstances. The work is not complete but ongoing, and is being done on London roads as we speak—trials on London roads in real time.

I am therefore confident that the further work will lead to an outcome where the software that in the end allows us to see the further development of automated vehicles will be able to replicate circumstances that drivers find themselves in. That, by the way, relates to a debate we had earlier about the judgments that might be made by a human being replicated by the software given all kinds of different challenges.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

A former lawyer, I should say. Of course Governments always look during scrutiny at the wording of Bills and at what can be tightened, changed or improved. That is part of the business that we are engaged in today. That is why we are having these debates; that is why we believe in the parliamentary process; that is why I started by saying that my intention was not to blindly drive the Bill through unaltered, but to listen, consider and reflect. That is the approach that I adopt.

The risk in this particular case, and with this kind of Bill, lies in trying to do too much. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset will say, “Yes, but it has to be sufficient,” and of course he is right. The point that he made at the beginning of his remarks was that if we are seeking clarity—and the case that we are making for the Bill is clarity—we cannot end up with something that is not clear. Otherwise, ipso facto, we are not fulfilling our ambitions. This debate is about that clarity.

Let me put this on record and see if it helps. It is likely that the first automated vehicles to reach the market will be usable in automated mode only in specific situations or use cases; we talked about that previously. They will probably be used, in the first instance, on motorways, for obvious reasons. In those terms, to put it in a way that most of us should find easy to grasp—I certainly find it easy to grasp, and if I find it easy, that is fair enough—it is a bit like a combination of what we have now. We have cruise control, which we might use on a motorway, but we probably would not use on a small side road in a rural area. We might use other driver-assist mechanisms currently available that are not automated, but have been developed over time to make driving more straightforward. We use assisted parking only when we are parking or reversing. There is a relationship between developing technology and actual use. That, I think, is how it will be at the beginning of the process—the journey, the road, the mountain; I do not mind which simile I use—that we are embarking on.

[Alan Brown]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hayes]

I will give way in a moment; I just want to complete this thought. Manufacturers have spoken about creating geofenced vehicles that would operate in defined parts of the city; others have spoken about systems that would operate on motorways and other high-speed roads. It is likely that the relevant global regulations that will be used to type-approve automated vehicles will reflect such limited-use cases. It is also possible that the regulations will contain requirements that the vehicle be able to detect where it is so that the system cannot be used in other situations.

Therefore, it is not clear that we need to make matching regulatory changes in our domestic framework. If necessary, we can use existing powers—this relates to what I said earlier—in the Road Traffic Act 1988 to revise existing or create new road vehicle construction and use regulations to reinforce the global regulations. That is exactly the point that I would make to my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset. If that legal power exists, and as long as the Bill does not counter it—it is a useful addition, but it does not negate any of that—it seems to me entirely possible to deal with those technological changes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

If it is helpful to explain to the Committee in greater detail and in more technical detail, if I can put it that way, the relationship between the Road Traffic Act and the Bill, I am happy to do so, and to do so in particular relation to the point that my right hon. Friend has just made about responsibility and liability, because he is right that if such a contradiction occurred, the purpose of the Bill would not be fulfilled. So, I am happy to reflect and write on that, and given what the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun has said, perhaps that will be beneficial in dealing with his query, too.

[Alan Brown]

Further explanation might help, but the Minister also said that he could use the Road Traffic Act to create regulations that could deal with this issue, because he said that the Bill is to do with fully autonomous vehicles. However, it still seems logical that, if this is a new Bill to deal with autonomous vehicles, we should deal with the scenario that we know exists—it is a scenario that we have already heard evidence about. There is already what is called the tier 3 or level 3 mode of operation, whereby a vehicle already makes that transition from driving to automated, so it seems logical that we deal with this issue while we are considering the Bill.

[Mr Hayes]

No, I do not think that I agree with that. We are all, to a lesser or greater extent, experienced legislators, or most of us are, and therefore we know that when a Bill is introduced and then becomes an Act, it certainly needs to be synergistic and compatible with the other, pre-existing measures to which it relates. I am not sure that it always needs to replace them; if that was the case, every Bill would have to be immensely ambitious in its scope.

So I do not think it is impossible to reach a position where, if we can accommodate the requirements of my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset, we can end up with an Act that is compatible with existing regulation and that fits—knits, if you like—with it, in as much as the insurance industry can rely on the existing legal framework for the products that it already sells and that the public enjoy—or endure, depending on which way people look at it—and there can be a new set of products that relate to the new technology and that build on the framework that this Bill, which hopefully will ultimately become an Act, delivers. So I am not sure that I agree with the hon. Gentleman.

[Alan Brown]

The amendment provides clarity, though.

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Gentleman intervenes from a sedentary position. Yes, but what I described does not suggest a lack of clarity. It simply says that the existing legislation is obviously clear, because it has given rise to an insurance marketplace that works; the new legislation needs to be clear, as my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset; and then the relationship between the two needs to be clear. We have achieved one objective, which has been achieved since 1988 at least; of course, there was legislation before that, but we do not need to deal with that legislation now.

So, I am not sure that those things cannot be squared; in fact, I am certain they can be squared and it is my job to do so. Because it is my job to do so, I am not sure that I can accept the amendment—although it is entirely understandable, well-argued and designed to help; I know that—not least because it is too detailed for the level of development of the technology and could constrain more appropriate subsequent regulation of the kind that I have described.

Also, ultimately the amendment would not help with the process of determining and apportioning liability in the event of an incident, which will remain the same as it is now, with the courts making judgments based on the facts. I am not sure that the amendment really helps with that, and for that reason I invite—not just invite but recommend—the hon. Member for Eltham to withdraw it.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill (First sitting)

Alan Brown Excerpts

Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 31st October 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Sir Oliver Letwin]

Q But if I have understood you, that would entirely rely on whether, as a matter of fact, the technology had that effect. In other words, there is nothing in the Bill to prevent that situation.

David Williams: But we want the man in the street to know that if a vehicle is operating autonomously, compensation will be available. That is why there is strict liability. We might not like the particular scenario, if we can think of one that might happen, but I agree: my interpretation is that strict liability would apply.

Ben Howarth: The difference being that the driver might not have the same rights.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

Q If we go back to control of data, Ben, you said that more clarity is needed on what data will be kept and shared. David, you said that the Bill does not look like a robust enough framework, but that you would not want it to be held up. Surely if it is believed that the Bill does not provide a robust enough framework we should look at making amendments, rather than holding the Bill up. Are there amendments that we as parliamentarians should consider?

David Williams: I am not aware of the planned timetable. There are two aspects: first, the vehicle has to get on the list and insurers then need to decide whether they will insure those vehicles. If, for some reason, a motor manufacturer decides they are either not capable of making or are not going to make any of that information available even if it ends up on the list, it will struggle to get insurance in the UK market.

There are lots of things that do need further discussion. These vehicles are not really going to be on the road for a number of years, so setting out the UK’s intention from a headline regulatory view and commenting that data need to be available while we work on that is one thing. I am not fussed as to whether or not it is an amendment, but it would be sad if the amendment took two years to get through because the motor manufacturers’ lobby blocked it.

Ben Howarth: I would also point out that a lot of the technical side will be taken up at a UN/ECO global level, so it might not be feasible to define it in the Bill and then have to change it. The more sensible route might be to see how the technical discussions go at global level and ensure that the way the list operates is robust, rather than put it in the Bill.

Iwan Parry: There are also a number of projects going on right now that will be helping insurers and safety experts to define what those kinds of criteria should be, and the data that should be retained. It would be worth giving those projects time to report on those requirements.

Ben Howarth: If you are interested, we have put a report out and defined what data we think we would want as part of this Bill for the insurance industry, and we have published that.

[Alan Brown]

Q The hon. Member for Hyndburn has talked about safety in relation to these projects looking at data protocols. Should that also encompass looking at safety and how the car was being driven or controlled, whether manually or in automatic mode? It has been said that insurance companies would only want data in the event of a collision, but it would be very tempting for insurance companies to want a lot more data. Even now, you can get an insurance policy for young drivers that involves fitting a black box into the car. The insurance company is obviously monitoring the operation of that car to keep the premiums down. Surely there is temptation to want more data and to do more. It may seem hypothetical, but if you use the internet then your history is used as an advertising and promotion tool. Therefore should there not be strict controls in terms of data control in the future, so that the data are not used?

Ben Howarth: I think there is a distinction to be made in relation to the data that the insurers would need as a condition of this Bill. The industry would love more data, as that helps with pricing. However, it is appropriate to ask what the insurance company needs and then to regulate that in order to make this Bill work. I refer to insurance companies, but actually it concerns what information the claimant would need for the purposes of verifying whether or not they have the right to make a claim. That is a key distinction. The more data that the insurers can potentially get on a commercial basis the better, but we recognise that there have to be controls on that.

Iwan Parry: I would add to that: as mentioned earlier, there is a difference between the limited amount of information that an insurer might require to understand whether the vehicle was being controlled by the vehicle or controlled by a driver, and information that could be beneficial from a road safety point of view that could also act as evidence from a capture and perspective point of view. This information will inform future policy at governmental level and potentially at legislative level. That is a more detailed source of data, and it would also be of the type that would assist more detailed investigations of what went wrong if an automated vehicle had an accident.

[Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) (Con)]

Q I declare an interest as chair of the all-party group on insurance and financial services. I would like to pick up on two points. Coming back to data: obviously, claims prices hinge on the quick sharing of data. In order to pay a claim, it will be necessary to know whether or not the car was in automated mode. Are there any current technical barriers between insurers and manufacturers that are going to delay that? Are there issues that you foresee causing problems?

Ben Howarth: We probably do not yet know enough about getting the data from the car to the insurance industry. Some work has started to be done via the Motor Insurance Bureau: as well as being the guarantee fund, they do a lot of data-sharing for the industry. We are confident that once we have data from a car, then the process of getting it to the insurer and settling the claim will be efficient. We would want confirmation that we can get it from the vehicle, but we have already started discussing that with the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders. That is something that can definitely be achieved within the timescales required.

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[Clive Efford]

Q Let me ask about transition, because the studies in Bristol suggested that vehicles slowed down significantly after the transition from automated mode to driver mode, because the driver was being excessively cautious or very cautious, which can lead to more dangerous circumstances. Is that an issue for insurers?

David Williams: It is something we need to be aware of, which is why we asked Venturer to do handover first of all; I think guidance needs to be provided. I think it is less likely to be a safety risk and more likely to be a congestion risk, but the other aspect is that when we are doing these tests, we are deliberating doing on, off, on, off. In my vision of the future and, I think, the way motor manufacturers are designing vehicles, it will not be like that. It might be that you drive on the country roads because you enjoy that and then you hit the motorway and flick the vehicle into autonomous mode for the next couple of hours. But yes, we need to understand and provide appropriate training and guidance on the handover; that is something we still need to understand more about.

[Alan Brown]

Q As insurance premiums come down, as predicted, in the future, is there a concern or risk that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will increase the Government’s take from insurance premiums, so that all the savings are not passed on to the driver?

David Williams: We always worry about insurance premium tax increasing.

[Mr Hayes]

Q You talked, in relation to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall about people who are disadvantaged not currently being able to access transport and so on, and subsequently, in answer to the question from the hon. Member for Eltham, dealt with predictable, standard routes. Where an autonomous vehicle is acting more like a bus in effect—it is on a standard journey—presumably it will be particularly appealing to those who currently cannot access transport of their own, because it will be, as you put it, in straightforward mode; even in a straightforward mode, many people currently cannot drive a car, because a visual impairment or a disability prevents their doing so. Is that a future you envisage?

David Williams: I think there will be, in the same way as there are many variations even to the Uber model now, many variations to autonomous vehicles. I think the advantage will be that you will not have to stick your hand out to stop a bus; the vehicle could potentially come into your drive and then go back out and continue its journey.

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[Matt Rodda]

Q Do you feel there is a need to look at the way the planning system could incentivise that, to get the market started?

Robert Llewellyn: I would hope that there would be. It would be wonderful if there were encouragements and nudging pressure to say, “When you build this new supermarket with a car park, can you put in 40 car chargers? Not two or four down the far end but to have one whole side for electrical vehicle charging.” It is not that expensive to do low-cost top-up charges; that is not a big expense.

[Alan Brown]

Q Past UK Government policy led to an increase in uptake of diesel vehicles, which we now know are huge contributors to problems of air pollution. Therefore, to achieve future deadlines, would it make sense for the UK Government directly to incentivise the purchase of EVs or low-emission vehicles, through scrappage schemes and so on?

Robert Llewellyn: I am very uncomfortable about pressuring people in that sense. We should encourage them, certainly, but not pressure them, because of the result of the misinformation that we all suffered from. I had a diesel car, as did a lot of people. I think that is a really difficult area. I feel very unqualified to know how to do that. I work on encouragement and enthusiasm; I would not know how to instigate legislation that would insist on people buying electric cars.

[Alan Brown]

Q Incentivise, rather than insist.

Robert Llewellyn: Yes—incentivise, certainly.

[The Chair]

If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witness for his evidence.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Andrew Stephenson.)

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill (Second sitting)

Alan Brown Excerpts

Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 31st October 2017 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Thank you very much. Alan Brown.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

Q On the smart grid that we are aspiring to, the panel has already alluded to the fact that they think smart charging will come by market, but there is a lot more that the Government need to think about in the wider energy mix, because there is also decarbonisation of heat and further decarbonisation of electricity. There is the future scenario of an influx of electric vehicles, but a whole lot else is going on in the energy mix as well. The point is to make sure that is all captured to get the smart grid we need.

Marcus Stewart: We see smart charging for electric vehicles as a key starting point for that. You can get smart technology in your home today—smart thermostats, for example. Commercial premises have smart air conditioning and smart lighting that help to balance their load and can provide services back to the grid today. An electric car will be the biggest asset in the home that uses energy, unless you convert to heat as well, and that will have a big impact on the system. Making that smart at the start is the right thing to do.

Suleman Alli: It is a bit like the concept of offset mortgages in the financial services sector, where you pay your salary into an account and that offsets against the mortgage interest you pay. We are starting to see a new business model emerge where people say, “We can give you price certainty or reduced energy bills if you plug your vehicle in and allow us to provide services to the wider network operators or the system operators.”

I think the market will innovate and start to provide those services. We are already seeing that in the internet market, for example. Some of the trials we are doing will look exactly at that area. It is intuitive for us to think that if you have an electric vehicle you are going to go home and plug it in straightaway. The research that we have undertaken shows there is a diversity. When you have a large population of EVs, not everybody goes home and charges at the same time. In fact, we have seen about 30% of the impact materialise—of the capacity of charge that has been installed. There is an element of diversity that we incorporate into our planning that is based on evidence from the trials we have undertaken.

[Alan Brown]

Q Can I ask one more question about the model scenarios? You are modelling how many vehicles might be coming in, among other things. Is that based on mass volume modelling, or does it look at existing restrictions in the network and at where the uptake might be? Clearly, uptake depends on the roll-out of the charging system and some local authorities in some areas are much more at the forefront of that than others. That potentially impacts their work as well.

Marcus Stewart: I could talk about how we would do that. The primary reason to do it is to understand what network capacity expansions and reinforcements are needed on a national level. We will have different assumptions for different locations, where we have evidence. For example, there may be clustering in cities that we will make assumptions around. I imagine that the DNOs will look at similar things for their networks as well. We look at it on a spatial basis; it is not just a single-number basis.

Suleman Alli: What we are looking to do, particularly with electric vehicles, because there is a lot of data available out there, is try to apply much more advanced analytic techniques. For example, how can we marry up Land Registry data, which gives an indication of people who might have driveways, together with Acorn data about people who might be more able to buy an electric vehicle, together with data on charge points, in order to get a better and more granular view of our network? That is what we are doing at the moment to improve our planning.

[Alan Brown]

Q So it is a live, ongoing process.

Suleman Alli: Absolutely. I do not think we can ever say we are done.

[The Chair]

Thank you. We have a lengthening list, so let us have one question and one answer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Clive Efford]

Q I will leave it there. One last question on what is driving this forward—that was not an intentional pun. Is it the desire of companies that employ large workforces that drive vehicles which are striving for automated vehicles, or is it the demand from the public, which wants to sit comfortably behind the wheel and not have to think too much for long journeys?

Quentin Willson: It is driven, I guess, by the fact that there is a huge world of opportunity here and that is predicated on the fact that people do not like driving anymore—there is congestion, it is expensive and it is difficult—and on the rent economy, whereby you summon an automated car on your smartphone and it comes to your door. When you look at the research, that is very attractive to the public. The golden era of getting pleasure from driving cars has gone, and I say that with some regret, but it is a fact. There was a survey by Catapult in Milton Keynes which asked this question: if you were to replace your current car with an autonomous car—we are not going to tell you what it is or what it looks like—would you be prepared to change to that autonomous car? Some 58% said that they would change to the autonomous car without knowing what it was, simply because of the liberation of not having to make those decisions and sit impotently in snarling traffic. It is partly driven by commerce and partly by the public.

[Alan Brown]

Q Is the Government’s target of 2044 for zero-carbon new cars ambitious enough?

Quentin Willson: I sat before this Committee a year ago and was broadly optimistic about the short and medium-term future of electric cars. I think Michael Gove’s announcement in July, coupled with Sadiq Khan’s T-zones and ClientEarth’s relentless pushing on air quality issues, has terrified consumers. It has wiped probably £30 billion off the value of diesel cars. Lease companies are now looking at a collapse in the residual values of the cars that they lease to consumers on personal contract purchase. We are looking at a real issue in the short to medium term.

The consumer now feels that he or she cannot buy a diesel car; we have seen sales of diesel cars absolutely collapse over the last quarter. They are feeling, “Right, I’ve got to buy an electric car.” We need to manage their expectations. I am quite concerned that people who rely on one car as the family vehicle will go out and buy, like me, a second-hand Nissan Leaf for £10,000. That is great, but we must understand that those cars’ ranges are nowhere near viable for an everyday, use-it-all-the-time car. They are a wonderful urban solution, but long journeys—anything more than 100 miles—are really difficult. I came down here in an alternative car; I had to leave my Nissan Leaf at home, because getting here would have required three stops to charge.

It is about managing consumer expectations. Otherwise, this whole thing will go horribly wrong. The new Nissan Leaf, which I saw in Oslo last week on its launch, has a quoted official figure of 235 miles to one charge, but the Nissan engineers tell me that in reality, it is 175 miles for everyday driving. If you drive that car on the motorway at 70 mph, that will fall to about 130 or 140 miles. The technology of the lithium ion battery still has some considerable work to do.

Again, it is all predicated—the mass adoption of electrification in the short to medium term—on having better battery density, maybe of alternative materials such as graphene, and a very robust charging infrastructure network. I am not talking about on-street chargers; I am talking about charging hubs like petrol stations, with 20 rapid chargers that can charge 20 cars in 40 minutes. That is the only way that mainstream consumers will be able to do any form of distance. They are wonderful for town work, but if you are doing more than 100 miles, you are still compromised.

[Alan Brown]

Q To follow on from that, it is interesting what you say about the conundrum of managing consumer expectations so that people do not buy a vehicle that might not suit their purposes. Going forward, when the technology allows, given that it was UK Government policy that drove the flux of diesel vehicles, does there come a point when the Government should incentivise a diesel scrappage scheme to get that mass ownership?

Quentin Willson: I would rather spend that money on the NHS. Here is an irony: we talk constantly about air quality, but in the MOT, there is no proper smoke test, although it is called a smoke test. The particulates come out the back, and the MOT examiner will fail the car if it loses rearward visibility. If you cannot see out the back when the car is accelerating, it fails. That is why you see all these cars puffing out black particulates. If we stiffened up the MOT with a proper particulate test and then automatically scrapped these cars, a lot of which are old and worn out and pollute much more than we realise, we would not have to finance a scrappage scheme. Consumers would realise, “This car is knackered; it’s got to go anyway.” But at the moment, there is no mandate against either petrol or diesel cars that really pollute.

Again, on the air quality debate, I am not sure that we will solve urban air quality with electrification alone. Even though we get massive amounts of people driving electric cars in cities, we still have 30% of particulate and NOx from industrial combustion, 20% from domestic combustion, 14% from ground machinery such as diggers, trucks, dumpers and cranes—these are London Assembly figures—5% from HGVs, 8% from vans and 9% from buses. We do not know the contributions from aviation and shipping. Certainly in London, with 20 million tonnes of stuff coming in on the Thames tidal, the fact that that is not even quantified worries me greatly. We do not want the unintended consequences of this not to affect air quality significantly and, in the meantime, blow the GDP of a generation while doing it. That is my worry. The fact that we do not know enough about this, and that it is being pushed and pushed and terrifying consumers, is of great concern to me.

[The Chair]

Thank you for that admirably clear answer.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Alan Brown Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons & Ways and Means resolution: House of Commons
Monday 23rd October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

I am not unsympathetic to that argument. The hon. Gentleman is right that the development of the necessary skills to service this new technology will be critical to its acceptance, rather as the absolute assurance of safety will. I expect the new skill set to develop, and I think that the industry will want that to happen.

I spoke briefly about the balance between what the market will provide and what Government need to do to frame and shape market provision, and this is a good example. We hope to see the development of apprenticeship programmes that are sufficient to cope with the demands that the hon. Gentleman set out, and we want the Government to work with the further and higher education sectors accordingly. We want to ensure that the work being done on emerging technology by most of the big motor manufacturers—as he knows, there is hardly a motor manufacturer that is not investing in research and development in this field—is tied to a proper consideration of the development of enough people with the skills to support it.

I think the hon. Gentleman is right, and I look forward to further debate about the matter. I am not unpersuaded of the idea that Government should play their part. The Bill as it was presented to the House does not contain measures to that effect, but our scrutiny may well give us the opportunity to consider further the points that the hon. Gentleman has made. I cannot believe that the Opposition have not read their Hansard, and that they will not return to the argument that they made in relation to the previous Bill—not that I am, for a moment, accusing them of being repetitious.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

The Minister has used the words “common good”, “national interest” and “safety”. Another thing in the Vehicle Technology and Aviation Bill was laser pen offences. The Minister heard from pilots about how dangerous such incidents are, so can he explain why those measures have been dropped from the Bill and tell us when he will introduce legislation on the matter?

[Mr Hayes]

Looking around the Chamber, I see, in all parts of it, Members with a laser-like approach to addressing legislation. It will not, therefore, have escaped anybody’s notice that this Bill is a rather cut-down version of the one that we considered earlier in the year, which enjoyed a Second Reading and a Bill Committee. We chose to focus on the core elements of that Bill, namely the provisions that deal with autonomous vehicles and electric vehicles.

The hon. Gentleman is right to say that there is a proper concern about the use of lasers. That is something that we have discussed previously. Indeed, I have discussed it with shadow Ministers, and I am determined to do more. We are, by the way, also determined to do more in respect of drones, which may fly above our heads during our consideration in this Chamber, at least in a metaphorical sense—or rather, I hope, only in a metaphorical sense. We are determined to deal with those issues, and we will talk about them in more detail over the coming weeks and months.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

We often get a feeling of déjà vu in this place, and tonight is another of those times; I feel like we have been here and have heard some of these comments before. I warn Members that if any of them have actually paid attention to my speeches on electric vehicles, they will get another feeling of déjà vu. [Hon. Members: “Hooray.”] It merited more than that. Anyway, the sense of déjà vu comes because the Bill was clearly part of the previous Vehicle Technology and Aviation Bill, which is testament to the folly of calling a general election. Not only was it a waste of money, but we are now revisiting legislation that had effectively already been through its Committee stage. We are redoing work that has been done before, which is costing the taxpayer money. [Interruption.] I will give way if the hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat) wants to make an intervention.

[Tom Tugendhat]

The hon. Gentleman was saying that the general election was a waste of money, but I cannot possibly agree. We have 13 Conservative MPs in Scotland, which is a great success all on its own.

[Alan Brown]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I think I need to help a little. Sit down, Mr Brown. I am not quite sure whether a debate on the number of MPs in Scotland has any relation to electric vehicles. I call Alan Brown—stop enticing them.

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[Alan Brown]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Just before I move on, this is proof of where this Government are at. What was the Vehicle Technology and Aviation Bill has been split in two. We have had the two-clause Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing Bill, and we now have this Bill. I am surprised that the Government have not split it in two to pretend that they have a bigger legislative programme over the next two years. [Interruption.] Perish the thought indeed. All that said, despite these comments which might seem churlish, I welcome what is in this Bill. It is a welcome step forward even if there is a feeling of déjà vu.

As the Minister set out, it is clear that there is a desire to increase the number of users and get to a stage where we can use fully autonomous cars, which will increase road safety. As has been mentioned, accidents are generally caused by human behaviour—driving when tired or people being distracted—so autonomous vehicles would remove the human risk factors. Changing insurance regulations so that insurance does not depend on the driver, which is the case at the moment, is clearly welcome. It is an enabling process, and I welcome part 1 of the Bill for that reason. The Minister said that it is hoped that autonomous vehicles will lead to reduced insurance premiums, yet we need to ensure that increased procedural and administrative costs for insurers do not lead to higher premiums. If that is the case, there could be an impact on the uptake of autonomous vehicles, so I ask the Government to review the cost of insurance premiums and whether there has been a negative impact on the uptake of autonomous vehicles.

It is important that Scotland is not left behind in this process. Indeed, when it comes to autonomous vehicles trials, Scotland needs to be included. Where better to trial the use of autonomous vehicles roads than on the narrow country roads of Scotland? Scotland still has single track country roads with passing places, and we sometimes have stand-offs where the drivers look at each other and wonder who is going to reverse all the way back to a passing place. Autonomous vehicles could improve that situation and make narrow rural roads safer, but trials will need to be held to see how autonomous vehicles cope with such situations.

I welcome the UK Government’s commitment in the industrial strategy to look at an autonomous vehicle hub, and we ask the Government to talk to colleagues in the Scottish Government about the opportunity of finding a suitable hub in Scotland. Autonomous vehicles are another technology strand that the UK Government claim to be global leaders in, but being a global leader means greater financial commitment. It also means collaboration, so the Government need to think how things will play out in a post-Brexit world.

Part 2 of the Bill relates to the necessary infrastructure for electric vehicles, which is overdue if further progress is to be made towards decarbonised transport. The UK Government announced a commitment that all new vehicles will be non-carbon by 2040. However, the Scottish Government have a more ambitious target of 2032, so I ask the UK Government to consider being more ambitious as well. We hear about a future with a smart grid, and electric charging can be part of it, so the UK Government need to start doing some long-term strategic planning towards that. We need wider policies that are linked together in order to implement the plan and make things happen.

Air pollution contributes to 40,000 premature deaths a year, so we really do have to decarbonise much quicker, and that is why I am asking the Government to consider more ambitious targets. Transport contributes 23% of carbon dioxide emissions, making it the joint largest contributor of emissions along with power generation, so decarbonisation is so important. As we plan for ultra low emission vehicles, there should be incentives to get diesel cars off the road. It cannot just be left to car manufacturers to operate diesel scrappage schemes. Given that it was a UK Government policy years ago to incentivise people to buy diesel cars, they have a responsibility to incentivise the scrappage of diesel cars and to encourage people to use electric vehicles. I have spoken previously about the need to consider the use of the secondary engines that run the refrigeration units on HGVs, which pollute much more heavily than other engines, so Government intervention is required. I welcome the fact that the Government are consulting on the use of red diesel in refrigeration units, but more action will be required.

The Bill provides some limited interventions that will help towards the uptake of electric or ultra low emission vehicles, but it is clear that much more will be required. The Bill makes provision for greater clarity in the information on charging points, which is welcome and necessary to improve consumer confidence. As has been said, users are not just concerned about range; they need to know where they can charge their vehicles. It also makes sense to have continuity of charging points and access to them, which is required to build consumer confidence and people’s willingness to take longer journeys without the concern of being stranded due to incompatibility with charge points. In that regard, clause 9 is an enabling clause, so proper regulations will be required sooner rather than later.

The Bill’s specification requirements on technology are welcome, because concerns were raised in Committee on the Vehicle Technology and Aviation Bill about possible hacking. Ensuring that is not a risk is important not just for cyber-security and safety but for underlying consumer confidence in electric vehicles.

If there is to be a bigger uptake of ultra low emission vehicles, there needs to be more charge point infrastructure. Although the Bill makes provision to force large fuel retailers to provide public charging points, greater clarity is required on how that will be implemented, on what exemptions will apply and on how Government funding will be provided. As we move towards ultra low emission vehicles, the current fuel provision network will no longer be fit for purpose, so just piggy backing on the existing fuel supply network might not be the best way forward. As we move to non-carbon transport, existing fuel suppliers will clearly change and modify, and they may no longer exist.

Better strategic intervention and direction is required to ensure a transition to ultra low emission vehicles. It is not sufficient that the Government believe infrastructure is best planned and delivered locally by public authorities, businesses and individuals—that is why we have heard today about the inconsistent roll-out of electric charging infrastructure. The Government pledge of £32 million for charging infrastructure between 2015 and 2020 is insufficient.

Let us compare that with the Scottish Government’s investment of more than £11 million since 2011 in developing the ChargePlace Scotland network of more than 900 publicly available electric vehicle charging bays. Even so, the Scottish Government have acknowledged that they need to do more. Currently, some £15 million per annum is spent on low carbon vehicles and infra- structure. However, the Scottish Government’s ambition is to more than triple the budget to £50 million per annum over the period 2018-19 to 2021-22. The UK Government should reconsider their funding arrangements, too.

The SNP Scottish Government will also accelerate the procurement of ultra low emission vehicles in the public and private sectors, transforming public sector car and van fleets by the mid-2020s and commercial bus fleets by the early 2030s. What are the UK Government doing on that?

Another example of where the Scottish Government are leading the way is the SNP’s commitment to making the A9 Scotland’s first electric highway. We have also committed to providing financial support for local solutions and small-scale research and development to address issues such as charging in tenement properties. The UK Government also need to consider such practicalities—other hon. Members have already mentioned terraced houses and flats.

There needs to be greater joined-up thinking across the research and development sector on low emission transport and renewable energy, which was at least alluded to in the industrial strategy. The Faraday challenge may assist with that, but more needs to be done.

Decarbonising transport without increasing demand on the electricity network while meeting the 2050 emission targets means doing a lot more than is in the Bill at present. It is an enabling Bill, but more needs to be done. Sales of ultra low emission vehicles are still hovering in the 1% range, so we clearly still have a long journey ahead. The Bill is just a wee baby step forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in this important debate. Today is the 310th anniversary of the first ever meeting of the Parliament of Great Britain, commemorating the Union of Scotland with England and Wales. I welcome the fact that the Bill applies in its entirety to Scotland and Great Britain, and I hope that Ministers and officials both here and in the devolved Administrations and local authorities across the UK work together to ensure the legislation’s full implementation.

I support the Bill both in principle and in practice. In principle, I support it because the UK needs such legislation to ensure that it stays at the forefront of technological research and development. In practice, the Bill puts in place the infrastructure and framework to ensure that we carry with us the support of the various bodies and industries upon which the Bill will impact. I will start by exploring the Bill’s practical measures by briefly touching on clauses 1 to 7, which cover insurer liability. That part has been covered by colleagues throughout today’s debate, so I will not labour the point too much, but if we are to move towards the automated and electric vehicles of the future, as I believe we must, it is crucial to put in place the framework to ensure the safety of these vehicles and their users.

The Bill makes it compulsory for users of automated vehicles to have insurance that covers any technical failure of the technology. Given that insurance is already compulsory, it is sensible and simple to extend that requirement so that insurers are initially liable to pay compensation, which they can then recover from the liable party through existing common or product law. Crucially, the Association of British Insurers fully supports this Bill, saying that it will give the industry time to prepare for the roll-out of automated vehicles. Indeed, it calls for the legislation to be introduced as soon as possible to give everyone a clear idea of how claims involving automated vehicles will be settled.

Safety is a key concern, with many preferring to be driven by a newly qualified teenager than a machine. However, as has been recognised today, the majority—up to 90%—of accidents are actually caused by human error, which featured in 85.7% of reported collisions in 2015. By minimising the human factor through automation, we may actually help to make our roads safer. That is why it is important to put in place the right legislative framework to support the operation of the new vehicles.

The Bill paves the way for the necessary infrastructure to be put in place to encourage more people to switch to electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, a transition which is essential to encourage the decarbonisation of British roads, in turn helping to improve air quality through reduced carbon emissions. As we move away from petrol and diesel cars, we must ensure that the Government and private providers have sufficient time and support to prepare for the majority of vehicles switching to electric and hydrogen fuel cells in the early 2020s. As has been mentioned, the provision of uniform and interoperable charging units is essential.

I add to the voice of other Members who have raised concerns about the accessibility of electric and hydrogen charging points in rural towns and villages across our country. As an MP representing a number of rural towns, villages and businesses, I hope the Minister and the Government commit to ensuring that infrastructure is provided in our rural towns and villages so that we have no further divergence between town and country in this nation.

In addition to the regulatory and structural enablers it provides, the Bill makes clear the UK’s aspiration to continue playing a role as a world leader in automated vehicle research and development. The UK Government have committed to spending £600 million to support the growing market for ultra low emission vehicles, in addition to the £270 million announced in the 2016 autumn statement. The automated vehicle market will be worth £28 billion by 2035, and the Government are investing more than £200 million in research and testing infrastructure, helping to ensure that we remain a world leader.

[Alan Brown]

Given the hon. Gentleman’s opening remarks about Great Britain working together, does he echo my call for an autonomous vehicle hub and autonomous vehicle testing in Scotland?

[Luke Graham]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising those points, which I was about to cover.

I hope the Minister will encourage entrepreneurs and companies from across the UK to compete for funding to ensure that the benefits are spread across the UK so that we can present and achieve a more connected kingdom.

In my constituency of Ochil and South Perthshire we propose to develop a new carbon transport and active travel hub as part of the Tay cities deal. The research and service centre will offer alternative fuel sources and encourage a modal shift by deploying and maintaining electric vehicle infrastructure. The centre will allow Perthshire, Scotland and the UK to be a leader in driving progress and research on automated and electric vehicles while bringing needed investment to the part of the country I represent. In order to do that, however, we need the Bill to ensure we have the legal and physical framework to facilitate such development in Perthshire and elsewhere in the UK. That is why I support the Bill.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alan Brown Excerpts

Thursday 19th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Of course, the choice of routes is ultimately down to the airlines themselves, but the hon. Gentleman will know that we provide significant support for important links from Northern Ireland, and we will continue to do so. The biggest difference for Northern Ireland will come with the expansion of Heathrow airport towards which we are working at the moment, and a guarantee of slots to provide excellent connectivity for Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales into countries around the world.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

The Scottish Government have not been able to cut air passenger duty because the UK Government have not properly implemented an exemption for Inverness airport. Given the importance of low-cost carriers to Scotland’s regional airports, it is important that the Scottish Government are also involved in any discussions. However, to allow sufficient time for EU ratification, the aviation agreements need to be concluded by October 2018. How many staff does the Secretary of State have working on these matters, and what guarantees can he provide that travel will continue uninterrupted?

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman makes his comment about air passenger duty in Scotland, but we did what the Scottish Government asked: we devolved air passenger duty and they have not cut it. I am afraid that they are discovering the realities of government. It is all very well making demands from the Opposition Benches, but when they actually have to take tough decisions, they discover that it is not all that easy. We are seeing that they are failing to deliver for the people of Scotland. When it comes to planning for aviation after Brexit, things are different, because we are planning for that and we will deliver. We will see, post 2019, that aviation continues to be the success story that it is today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

Indeed, as my hon. Friend knows from my past visits to Boston, I am well aware of the importance of the Boston bypass project. The town is situated on an A road with a congestion problem and is one of those for which I would expect to see proposals come forward for the bypass fund. We will look very carefully at the bridge issue, and I am very happy to talk to him about that.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

You may not be aware of this, Mr Speaker, but just last week there was another great train robbery: £600 million was removed from Scotland’s rail budget because the Tories ripped up a long-standing funding formula. For the sake of Scottish rail users, will the Secretary of State get together with the Treasury and give Scotland the correct funding?

[Chris Grayling]

This is an historic moment: the Scottish National party is opposing a funding allocation that uses the Barnett formula. I was under the impression that it regarded the Barnett formula as sacrosanct. However, when the UK Government use the Barnett formula, it complains. The SNP cannot have its cake and eat it.

Taxi Trade

Alan Brown Excerpts

Tuesday 18th July 2017 Westminster Hall

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Wilson; I think this is the first time that I have done so. It is probably good news for you and others that I will not take up too much time.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting) on introducing the debate, on the sterling work that he has clearly done as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on taxis and on producing the report. He started today by saying how iconic the black hackney carriage is in its association with London. I certainly concur with that. When I was growing up, my dad’s aunt stayed just outside London, and we certainly associated the hackney carriage with London. The training and knowledge that these drivers have has been well documented in TV series, documentaries and so on.

It does seem a wee bit ironic that at the same time, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned, Transport for London is clearly undercutting other taxi services around the country in terms of the licences they are issuing. As we heard from the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main), that is having a real impact on drivers in her constituency.

The hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) touched on the fact that taxi operation varies from area to area and from country to country. Where I stay, my experience of taxis is that passengers phone local private hire companies; in my licensing area, people are not allowed to flag down vehicles. That makes it harder for unlicensed operators to operate, and it makes the whole start-or-finish issue or cross-border issue a bit more difficult. I am fortunate because I know all the local taxi drivers. I can phone the company and say “It’s Alan. I want to go to x, y or z.” I do not even have to give full details of the address. I can take my pet dog in the car; that is not a problem. That is in stark contrast to the experiences of people who rely on their guide dog because of mobility issues. We have heard about the unsatisfactory experience of people not being able to get their guide dog in cars. I certainly support the call for equality training to ensure that people are not effectively discriminated against, which would be under the Disability Discrimination Act 1995.

That brings us full circle. It is really important that we do not have a race to the bottom, which is the concern that we have now about Uber and how it operates. The hon. Member for St Albans said that she does not care whether it is Uber or whatever; the bottom line is that there is an issue that we need to address. In Scotland, Uber operates only in Glasgow and Edinburgh; it certainly does not operate in my area, so it is not the same issue as we face here. Clearly, that company has a model, and once it undercuts people and puts other drivers out of business, it will continue to expand that model elsewhere. As I said, we cannot have a race to the bottom. We have heard about insurance issues. Clearly, some people are getting into these cars and do not understand the wider implications. Yes, they might save a few pennies, but it could cost them in the long run.

The key theme that came out in the debate was that the existing legislation is outdated. I have just touched on the DDA. I agree that there should be penalties for abuse of taxi drivers; they need more protection. Another good point made by the hon. Member for Ilford North was about providing assistance for taxi drivers to upgrade their cars, particularly given air pollution issues. The Government have still to respond to the air pollution case. They have lost three times in the High Court now; they cannot afford to lose in the High Court again. I think that further grant assistance must be given for the upgrading of black cabs, particularly in London. I will throw out one further thing to the Minister. Previously, there was a grant system for conversion to liquefied petroleum gas. I do not think that is available any more, but it is a good interim step towards reducing emissions before we get to zero-carbon transport, so I ask the Government to think again about LPG.

In Scotland, the Scottish National party Government have already made changes to licensing, under the Air Weapons and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2015. The process began in 2012-13, but even by the time the legislation was going through Parliament, in 2015, it was already recognised that it had not kept pace with technology and the apps system that is now used for taxi drivers. The SNP Government have therefore pledged to review it and bring in changes accordingly. I urge the UK Government to think likewise.

HS2 Update

Alan Brown Excerpts

Monday 17th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

We of course monitor the fitness for contracts of all the companies we award contracts to. The consortia to which we have awarded contracts today are groups of firms that have a track record of delivering major projects for this country, and they also include major British businesses that I want to see succeed. It is really important to ensure that we use the expertise that is already delivering for us and that we also champion British business. The awarding of the contracts does that job.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement, and for his honesty in admitting that today’s proceedings are yet another Government cock-up, which is quite the theme.

I have consistently spoken in favour of High Speed 2, so long as Scotland is not excluded. I therefore welcome the Secretary of State’s restatement of the aspiration to have a three-hour journey time to Scotland. By contrast, my scheduled journey time today from Glasgow to London was four and a half hours—50% longer—which shows the real benefits that high-speed rail could bring. However, my understanding is that when high-speed trains run on the existing network north of Crewe they will actually run slower than my train did today. Can he confirm that, and if so, what will be done to look at the rolling stock to try to improve that speed?

Can the Secretary of State also advise on the estimated journey time of three hours and 45 minutes when high-speed trains start running to Glasgow, and how much that reduced journey time will be due to the reduced number of stops? Can he confirm in which investment periods upgrades to the west coast main line north of Crewe will take place? A previous KPMG report highlighted some possible negative impacts in Scotland, including a predicted £220 million drop in economic output in Aberdeenshire, if high-speed rail continues without including Scotland. Has he updated the review of those figures, and if not, why was the Secretary of State for Scotland able to tweet that today’s announcements on high-speed rail will bring economic benefits to Scotland?

I want to reiterate the concerns about Carillion, which now has the prefix “troubled” when it is mentioned in the newspapers. What engagement has there been with Scottish companies for bids? Will the Secretary of State uphold his predecessor’s commitment that offsite constructions will definitely be in Scotland? With regard to today’s announcement about the Crewe hub, can he confirm that it will not be to the detriment of services to Scotland or the funding of upgrades north of Crewe? Finally, I offer the small reminder that the devolution of Network Rail to Scotland would allow the Scottish Government to progress upgrades north of the border much quicker.

[Chris Grayling]

As I said earlier, this project benefits the whole United Kingdom. It will reduce journey times to Scotland, and I am committed to looking at how we ensure those journey times come down on and beyond the HS2 network. I will work closely with my Scottish colleagues to see how best we can achieve that, to deliver what people in Scotland want, which is— [Interruption.] Well, I hate to say this to the Scottish National party, but actually we are the ones who just made ground in Scotland. The hon. Gentleman will not be surprised if I listen to my Scottish colleagues, who seem to me to have their fingers firmly on the pulse of what people in Scotland want. Of course, we will deal with the Scottish Administration, but there is more than one voice for Scotland in this House now.

Service patterns for the future will ultimately depend on timetabling much closer to the time, but I expect to see genuine benefits for people across the network served by HS2 in Scotland, the north of England and north Wales. This investment will lead to better services all around the country. It will deliver better services from the east coast ports; I see my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) in his place, and there is a real opportunity to open new routes to those ports on the existing east coast main line. There is a real opportunity to improve the services to cities off the HS2 network that will be served by HS2 trains—Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Preston, Liverpool. This will benefit people on a very widespread basis.

The hon. Gentleman talks about a drop in economic activity. This is a huge project that will feed the supply chain all around the United Kingdom. So this will be good news for Scottish business, good news for English business, good news for Welsh business and good news for Northern Irish business. This is good news for the United Kingdom as a whole.

The hon. Gentleman talked about Carillion. I would hope that everyone in this House would share my ambition that a British company going through a troubled period pulls through and has a stronger future, and I see no reason, when it is part of a consortium that has agreed collectively to deliver for us, why we should hold its current position against it and take away an opportunity that might help that business recover.

Lastly, I do not see how delivering on a Crewe hub that will help connections to north Wales, for example, should in any way disadvantage Scotland.

Oral Answers to Questions

Alan Brown Excerpts

Thursday 13th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

Our ambition after Brexit is to have borders that function as closely as possible to the way they currently do. We do not want to deter tourists or businesspeople from coming to the country. Having a managed migration system does not mean that we suddenly have to create barriers to tourists, and that is not our intention.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State did not provide any substance in that answer on the discussions he is having. Some 23 million inbound passengers from the EU pass through UK airports each year, and they are processed quickly using special lanes and scanning. What funding has the Secretary of State identified is required for infrastructure and resources to avoid queues for those coming here? He might also be aware that the EU is planning an ESTA-type visa system for non-EU citizens, so has he had discussions about the impact of that when the UK leaves the EU?

[Chris Grayling]

Of course, we have discussions all the time across the Government about post-EU exit arrangements—we had a Committee meeting to that effect yesterday—but as I said to the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden), it is not our intention or desire to erect barriers at the borders, for tourists arriving, for example. Indeed, we are investing in things like automated gates to speed the flow through our borders, and we will carry on doing things like that.

[Alan Brown]

Another potential impact on passenger capacity is the negative impact if the UK does not remain part of the open skies agreement. That is very important for regional airports such as Prestwick, adjacent to my constituency. The Prime Minister said this week that she had discussions with President Trump on open skies, but can the Secretary of State provide an assurance that the UK will remain part of open skies and the single aviation market?

[Chris Grayling]

I can give the hon. Gentleman an assurance that I am absolutely confident that after we have left the EU there will be an open skies agreement with the United States. I have had discussions with my US counterpart; there is an absolute desire on both sides of the Atlantic to make sure that the aviation arrangements remain as they are at the moment.