Armed Forces Bill (Seventh sitting)

Al Carns Excerpts

Select Committee stage
Thursday 16th April 2026 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss clauses 43 and 44 stand part.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford.

Clause 42 amends sections 3A, 4 and 4A of the Ministry of Defence Police Act 1987. It widens the power to make regulations under section 3A(1) so that provision can be made relating to the governance and administration of the Ministry of Defence police. That will give the Secretary of State a power similar to the power under section 50(1) of the Police Act 1996 to make regulations for members of territorial police forces in England and Wales.

The clause will also enable regulations to make provision so that a member of the MDP can be suspended from the office of constable if they are suspended from duty. As a consequence of the amendment to section 3A, it makes a minor amendment to section 4(1) so that the requirement to make regulations making provision relating to representation at disciplinary proceedings is aligned with the power in section 84(1) of the Police Act 1996. It also makes a minor amendment to the power in section 4A to make provision for police appeals tribunals, to remove a reference to legislation—schedule 3 to the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012—that was recently revoked by the Scottish Government.

I now turn to clause 43. Cross-border powers of arrest are set out in part X of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994. Where offences are committed in one legal jurisdiction in the UK, cross-border powers of arrest enable police officers to arrest suspects in other legal jurisdictions of the UK. The purpose of the amendments made by clause 43 is to make it clear that the powers in part X can be exercised by members of the MDP within their jurisdiction set out in section 2 of the Ministry of Defence Police Act.

The amendments will also slightly enlarge their jurisdiction to act for non-defence purposes, to execute arrest warrants at the request of other police forces, and to arrest suspects where it is not possible to wait for the arrival of a member of the local force. Similar amendments have already been made for members of the British Transport police and the Civil Nuclear Constabulary.

Clause 44 amends section 2 of the Police (Property) Act 1897 to enable the Secretary of State to make regulations allowing unclaimed property in the possession of the MDP to be retained so it can be used for police purposes. The current power enables regulations to be made so that property can be retained for police purposes by territorial police forces in England and Wales. However, there is a legislative gap that means there is no scope for regulations to allow such property to be retained for use for police purposes by the MDP. This clause will allow regulations to be made that enable property to be retained for MDP use in the same way as for Home Office police forces.

I commend clauses 42 to 44 to the Committee.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again this afternoon, Mr Efford. This will be a brief contribution.

When I was a Minister, I had the privilege of visiting the MOD police at what was then RAF Wethersfield, which is now used for much more controversial purposes, but that is outside the scope of this Bill. I was shown a convoy protection exercise—the Minister will understand what I am talking about—and I was very impressed by how efficient and effective the MOD police were at guarding a precious cargo in that exercise.

The MOD police are affectionately known as “MOD plod” throughout defence, but sometimes I feel they are slightly under-sung heroes. They keep many people safe, and I place on record our appreciation for the MOD police and everything they do to keep us safe and protect vital assets in defence, as I am sure the Minister would echo.

[Al Carns]

The MOD police do an outstanding job. The changes in this Bill enhance their ability to keep us safe and to do their job effectively.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 42 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 43 and 44 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 45

Detention etc of persons overseas in cases of mental disorder

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss schedule 7.

[Al Carns]

Clause 45 and schedule 7 will protect those experiencing serious mental health difficulties while deployed overseas. Schedule 12 to the Armed Forces Act 2006 provides the legal framework for admitting and detaining service personnel suffering from mental disorders in service hospitals located outside the British Isles. However, schedule 12 has never been commenced, as its drafting is based on the existence of overseas military hospitals, none of which remain. That means our armed forces cannot currently rely on schedule 12 to detain personnel overseas.

Clause 45 and schedule 7 therefore amend schedule 12 to allow for the temporary detention of persons subject to service law, and civilians subject to service discipline, who experience a mental health crisis while deployed overseas, pending their removal to the UK for appropriate treatment in the civilian mental health system. That reflects the Mental Health Act 1983.

The clause enables a commanding officer to make an order, regarding the health, safety and dignity of a person, to detain them temporarily in a suitable place where detention in an overseas service hospital is impracticable. In urgent cases, service police may remove a person from living accommodation, where they are suffering from a mental health disorder, and take them to a suitable place where they can be detained by their commanding officer. A registered medical practitioner or nurse should be consulted, so far as is practicable.

In urgent cases, service police can also take a person suffering from a mental health disorder to a suitable place where they can be detained under the order of their commanding officer following consultation, where practicable, with a medical practitioner or nurse. Clause 45 and schedule 7 ensure that those who experience a mental health crisis while serving overseas receive appropriate protection, support and treatment.

I commend clause 45 and schedule 7 to the Committee.

[Mr Francois]

Clearly, all members of the Committee regard the mental health of our armed forces personnel and their families as equally important as their physical health. We therefore understand and welcome the intent of this clause.

[Al Carns]

The closure of overseas military hospitals requires a change to the legislation, and this clause does exactly that.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 45 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

Clause 46

Defence functions of the Oil and Pipelines Agency

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Al Carns]

Clause 46 introduces a new section into the Oil and Pipelines Act 1985 to expand the defence functions of the Oil and Pipelines Agency. This is necessary as the agency is limited by existing legislation to dealing only in petroleum-based products and services. The OPA was established to support UK defence operations at a time when hydrocarbons were the main source of operational energy. In the decades since, the UK’s energy landscape has shifted considerably.

National commitments to reduce carbon emissions and achieve net zero by 2050 have driven changes in the country’s energy strategy. The Ministry of Defence is undergoing significant reform, with a strong emphasis on energy diversification. As a result, defence operations will become increasingly reliant on a broader mix of energy sources to ensure energy security, sustainability and operational effectiveness. Those include, but are not limited to, biofuels, synthetic fuels, natural gas and renewable natural gas, hydrogen, sustainable aviation fuels, zero-carbon energy carriers and fuels, and other low-carbon alternatives.

The clause therefore updates the Oil and Pipelines Act to permit the OPA to carry out activities related to the production, conveyance, storage or supply of energy for defence purposes, and to enter into agreements to support those activities. It also defines “energy” in broad terms, rather than restricting it to petroleum. The clause will ensure that the OPA remains strategically aligned, operationally relevant and capable of delivering value for money in a changing energy and defence environment.

I commend clause 46 to the Committee.

[Mr Francois]

I will make just one point, given the current international situation. We will not get into a long debate about the conflict in Iran, as you would rightly call me to order, Mr Efford. However, it is on the record that our Security Service has identified upwards of 20 plots in recent years, at the hands of the Iranian Government or their proxies, against facilities or persons in the United Kingdom, which mercifully it has foiled.

Therefore, it is not inconceivable that there could be a threat to those key pipelines that, bluntly, allow our jets to fly. Can the Minister reassure the Committee that the additional powers in the Bill will help to improve the security of that supply network? Is there anything else that he might want to place on the record this afternoon, subject to operational security, about what we are doing to maintain critical supplies to our armed forces, not least aviation fuel for our quick reaction alert aircraft?

[Al Carns]

The clause does exactly that. It diversifies some of the regulations that had predominantly focused on petrochemical facilities, in line with the changes in technology and energy demands. That diversification gives us resilience in global affairs and against potential adversaries who would seek to disrupt those services.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 46 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 47

Protection of military remains

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Al Carns]

Clause 47 addresses the existing disparity between the protection of military aircraft and vessels under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986, which secures the protection from unauthorised interference of the remains of military aircraft and vessels that have crashed, sunk or been stranded, and/or associated human remains, making it an offence to enter or interfere with a military wreck site without an authorised licence. The Act provides two types of protection: protected places and controlled sites, which are managed through the statutory instrument process in tranches. However, it does not currently allow designation of a vessel as a protected place if it was sunk or stranded on or before 4 August 1914, or a site as a controlled site if more than 200 years have elapsed since the crash, sinking or stranding of the vessel or aircraft.

Clause 47 therefore amends section 1 of the 1986 Act so that all military shipwrecks that are the last resting places of service personnel are automatically protected places, ensuring alignment with the protection already afforded to military aircraft. The clause also removes the restrictive time constraints that apply to protected places and controlled sites to ensure that the nation’s historic military shipwrecks that are, by virtue of those time limits, currently excluded, can be protected.

By providing automatic protection to all military shipwrecks, the MOD will enable a significant improvement in how our maritime military graves and underwater cultural heritage are protected. Diving on protected places will continue to be permitted on a “look but don’t touch” basis, and a licence to dive on a controlled site will still be required. Giving all military wrecks protected place status will help to deter unauthorised salvage and the desecration of wrecks and the military remains of service personnel. It will also enable the MOD, where appropriate, to prosecute those who flout the law.

Clause 47 delivers vital changes to enable the proper protection of our naval heritage. I therefore commend it to the Committee.

[Mr Francois]

This clause is important and worthwhile. Sunken warships are war graves in their own right, and they are sacred. One example is HMS Hood, which was blown up and sunk in battle with the Bismarck. Only three members of her crew survived; the rest perished as a result of that engagement. This is from memory, but I think that when the bell of HMS Hood was recovered some years ago, there was a great deal of debate about whether it was appropriate. In the end, it was decided that, in those very special circumstances, it was.

We must always remember that these graves are sacred; that applies to those of navy personnel from other countries as well. It is therefore good that protections are being increased for sites where those who fought and gave their lives for their country—whatever country—and who should be appropriately commemorated.

[Al Carns]

I commend the right hon. Gentleman’s comments. It is worth remembering that some of the more costly battles in war are maritime battles. Ships could sink within minutes, and although today there are fewer crew members on those ships, there were thousands on them back in the day, particularly with the Dreadnought class. It is right that we protect those graves, which is why we are introducing this clause.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 47 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 48

Police and Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1989: updating

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Al Carns]

Clause 48 amends the Police and Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 to align it more closely with the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 for England and Wales where there are references to UK armed forces.

These are minor and technical amendments and do not change the substance of the legislation. Clause 48 simply substitutes the outdated reference to “the Royal Navy Regulating Branch” with “the Royal Navy Police”. It also removes reference to “the Royal Marines Police”, which has been incorporated into the Royal Navy police.

Lastly, clause 48 omits reference to the repealed single service Acts: the Army Act 1955, the Air Force Act 1955 and the Naval Discipline Act 1957. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Mr Francois]

As the Minister rightly says, these are highly technical amendments, and therefore we have no objection.

[Al Carns]

I am very happy.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 48 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 49

Coroners and Justice Act 2009: correcting amendment

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Al Carns]

Clause 49 is a very minor clarifying amendment to the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. Changes made by the Armed Forces Act 2021 to other legislation to reflect the creation of the tri-service serious crime unit, referred to as the Defence Serious Crime Unit, included changes to the Coroners and Justice Act. While this change introduced the wording “tri-service serious crime unit”, it missed the opportunity to also add “service” before “police force”, which is an omission from when the Coroners and Justice Act was originally drafted.

The introduction of the word “service” before “police force” simply corrects that omission and provides clarity that the specific reference relates to a service police force and not a civilian police force. I commend clause 49 to the Committee.

[Mr Francois]

Agreed.

[Al Carns]

Also agreed.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 49 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 50

Interpretation

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss clauses 51 to 55 stand part.

[Al Carns]

The general provisions set out the technical detail necessary for the legislation to operate as intended. They address such matters as interpretation, with clause 50 defining terms used throughout the Bill. Clause 51 covers financial provision and states that expenses arising from the provisions in the Bill will be paid out of money provided by Parliament. Clause 52 sets out extent in the United Kingdom and the specific legal jurisdictions of England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, where legislation will form part of the law. Clause 53 covers extent in the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and the British overseas territories and how certain provisions extend outside the UK—that is, Crown dependencies and British overseas territories. Clause 54 covers commencement and transitional provision, setting out when different parts of the Bill will come into force and enabling the Secretary of State to make transitory, transitional or saving provision. That is a standard provision designed to help bridge the gap between existing legislation and the commencement of new provisions when they come into force.

I commend the clauses to the Committee.

[Mr Francois]

I have one question about clause 53. The clause is titled: “Extent in the Channel Islands, Isle of Man and British overseas territories”. However, subsection (2) says:

“The provisions mentioned in subsection (3) extend to—

(a) the Isle of Man, and

(b) the British overseas territories, except Gibraltar.”

Similarly, subsection (5)(b) says:

“any of the British overseas territories, except Gibraltar.”

The Minister will know that there are some sensitivities about policing and such matters in Gibraltar as a result of negotiations with the Government of Spain. I will not attempt to get into a wider row this afternoon about the fate of Gibraltar. However, after the Government’s big climbdown on Chagos, we are rather hoping that they will look again at the arrangements that affect the Rock. Suffice it for this afternoon—and just to prove I have read it—perhaps the Minister could explain why there are two exceptions for Gibraltar in this clause?

[Al Carns]

It may seem unusual that the Armed Forces Act 2006 extends directly to each of the British overseas territories, except for Gibraltar. However, there is a reason for that. The Act originally extended to all the British overseas territories, but it ceased to extend to the British overseas territories in 2011 as a result of a drafting error when it was renewed for the first time by the Armed Forces Act 2011. The Armed Forces Act 2016 corrected the error by extending the 2006 Act to the British overseas territories. Gibraltar was not included because it had instead asked to deal with armed forces matters using legislation passed by the Gibraltar Parliament—the Armed Forces (Gibraltar) Act 2018.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 50 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 51 to 55 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New Clause 2

Veterans’ Mental Health Oversight Officer

“(1) The Armed Forces Act 2006 is amended as follows.

(2) After section 343C (Establishment and functions of veterans advisory and pensions committees) insert—

‘343CA Establishment and functions of a Veterans’ Mental Health Oversight Officer

(1) The Secretary of State must appoint a person to be the Veterans’ Mental Health Oversight Officer.

(2) The general function of the Officer is to oversee the mental health care and treatment provided to veterans by the health bodies specified in section 343AZB.

(3) In exercising their function, the Officer must, in particular, monitor and assess the extent to which health bodies are complying with the duty imposed by section 343AZA (Duty to have due regard to the covenant) in relation to the mental health and well-being of veterans.

(4) The Officer may require a health body to provide such information as the Officer considers reasonably necessary to discharge their functions under this section.

(5) The Officer must prepare an annual report on the exercise of their functions and the general state of veterans’ mental health care and treatment in the United Kingdom.

(6) The Secretary of State must lay a copy of the Officer’s annual report before each House of Parliament.

(7) In this section, “veteran” means a person who has at any time been a service member.’”—(Ian Roome.)

This new clause establishes the statutory role of a Veterans’ Mental Health Oversight Officer.

Brought up, and read the First time.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

Question negatived.

New Clause 3

Duty to provide medical records on discharge

“(1) This section applies where a person ceases to be a member of the regular forces or the reserve forces.

(2) The Secretary of State must by regulations make provision for a complete copy of the person’s service medical records is provided to the person no later than one month after the day on which the person is discharged or otherwise ceases to be a member of those forces.

(3) Those regulations may specify the manner and form in which service medical records are to be provided under this section, including provision for records to be transferred directly to a civilian health body with the person's consent.

(4) In this section—

‘health body’ has the same meaning as in section 343AZB;

‘service medical records’ means any records relating to the person’s physical or mental health care and treatment created or maintained by or on behalf of His Majesty's forces during the person's period of service.”—(Ian Roome.)

This new clause places a statutory duty on the Secretary of State to ensure that all service personnel leaving the military receive a complete copy of their medical records within one month of their discharge date.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Ian Roome (North Devon) (LD)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford. New clause 3 would place a statutory duty on the Secretary of State to ensure that all service personnel leaving the military receive a complete copy of their medical records within one month of their discharge date. The one-month timeframe would create a hard deadline, and it would align the provision of records with their completing their registration with a GP. The new clause would apply in respect of all regular and reserve personnel and ensure that detailed medical records are made available after discharge, to both the individual and the relevant health body.

Under the new clause, the form those service medical records take would be specified, as is now common with data disclosure, to make health information transparent and accessible. The new clause would also create a formalised handover process for all physical and mental health records to a civilian health body, such as the NHS, as already defined in the Bill in proposed new section 343AZB of the Armed Forces Act 2006. Disclosure would happen with the person’s consent in a structured way, which would help to ensure better awareness of their service history during their future healthcare.

Lost medical records have been the focus of veterans’ campaigns, such as those launched by the UK nuclear test veterans, who say that decades-old records of blood and urine samples taken during the 1950s nuclear tests may have been actively withheld from service personnel to avoid liability over radiation-related illnesses. The new clause would recognise that a service career can be dangerous, so timely transfer of a copy of a person’s medical records at the end of their service should be standard procedure.

--- Later in debate ---

[Al Carns]

I thank the hon. Member for North Devon for tabling new clause 3, which would require the provision of full medical records within one month to all personnel leaving the armed forces. The Ministry of Defence absolutely recognises the importance of facilitating the transfer of healthcare information to civilian healthcare providers quickly and efficiently when an individual leaves the armed forces.

In short, individual access to medical records is already legislated for under the Data Protection Act 2018, and we are rolling out a system that will transfer most records within a day. The Act allows service personnel to request their own military records, including healthcare records, through a subject access request. There is an expectation that records will be provided within 28 days, extended to three months for more complex cases.

Service personnel are advised to register with an NHS GP at their discharge medical, which takes place one to three months before discharge. On leaving the care of Defence Medical Services, service personnel are provided with a medical care summary and a form named FMed 133. They are advised to provide a copy of their FMed 133—a patient record access request—to their NHS GP.

The information provided to service personnel for their GP on discharge includes physical and mental health diagnoses, medication and allergies, significant past medical history, ongoing referrals and care plans, and details of significant occupational exposure with health implications. Handover discussions are had for complex cases.

When a patient’s full DMS health record is required, it is provided on request from the NHS GP. The FMed 133 provides details of how the NHS GP may request a patient’s full DMS health record. Preparing a patient’s full DMS health record for release to the individual or their GP requires clinical oversight, and compliance with data protection and security protocols must be ensured. Full DMS health records may require redaction of sensitive operational information, and their release must comply with the principles of the General Data Protection Regulation.

[Ian Roome]

The new clause would create a deadline and shorten the timeframe. The Minister has just said that some complicated cases can take up to three months, but it is probably those cases that need the urgency of a 28-day timeframe. I know that in future it may all go digital, but at the moment we cannot confirm that, and I get some really serious and difficult cases in my constituency casework. Does the Minister therefore agree that we really need to improve the timeframe to 28 days?

[Al Carns]

I agree that we need to improve the system, and I am not going to stand here and tell the Committee that it is foolproof. I have heard of many cases where health records have gone missing in the bridge between systems. That is why I want to highlight the new electronic health records system, which is already under contract and will allow the immediate electronic transfer of medical records from DMS to NHS GPs at the end of service.

Digitisation is the big issue here, alongside interoperability between Defence Medical Services systems and those in the NHS. The new system will allow the transfer of NHS records to defence on entry, and their sharing when required, which will have a big impact on recruitment, particularly in reducing the time between a person expressing an interest in joining and the moment they do so, where the transfer of medical records has been an issue in the past.

Records access and transfer can occur within a day, and the new system is planned to be live from December 2027. I hope that reassures the Committee that the new clause is not needed, and on that basis I ask the hon. Member for North Devon to withdraw it.

[The Chair]

When I called you to speak, Minister, there was nobody else on their feet. Since then, somebody else has indicated that they would like to speak. In the interests of the debate, I will allow that, but you will be free to come back after they have spoken, if you wish.

[David Reed (Exmouth and Exeter East) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Efford; I appreciate that.

I think new clause 3 is very sensible. I know from personal experience that life in the military is fast. A person may deploy somewhere and get a number of different inoculations, and they do not necessarily think about what they were getting before being deployed. When people come out of the armed forces—I have definitely found this myself—and go travelling, knowing what they have had is really important. For someone to have to go back to the Ministry of Defence to try to get their medical records and pass them to their GPs is, as anyone who has tried to move information through GPs or NHS trusts will know, extremely difficult. As the Minister has said, moving that information between the MOD and the NHS is an even bigger burden.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford made a number of points about mental health, but there are smaller, practical points that the new clause would address. Having a physical copy of our military records within one month would be really valuable, so I look forward to supporting the hon. Member for North Devon on the new clause.

[Al Carns]

When the hon. Member for Exmouth and Exeter East left the military, I am sure he received his FMed 133. If he did, he will recognise that it contained information on physical and mental health diagnoses, medication, allergies, significant past medical history, and ongoing referrals and care plans, as well as detailing significant operational exposures with health implications.

[Ian Roome]

I wish to press new clause 3 to a vote.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Francois]

Unusually as I moved the new clause, I am not proposing to press it to a vote, because I hope that the point has been made. I hope that the Liberal Democrats, who tabled it, will not argue with that.

[Al Carns]

I thank Liberal Democrat Members for tabling the new clauses. To step back, I had 24 years in the military, and I sat and watched Governments come and go—I was less interested at the start of my career, but far more interested at the end, which just happened to coincide with the previous Government. What did we see? We saw a fundamental failure to address the recruitment and retention issues. To blame recruitment on the Northern Ireland legacy Bill, which I agree we are working on, is fundamentally flawed, as is highlighting a recruitment issue in special forces: we have already talked through how that is not the case, based on very close analysis that I have done, on an issue very close to my heart.

The reality is that a new Government have come in. We have looked in detail at the problems and systemic issues in the people space, which we have all lived and breathed, and we have fundamentally dealt with them. There is a long way to go, but we are seeing the shoots of success, with a percentage increase in recruitment and a reduction in outflow. Why? Childcare initiatives. Not shiny ships, bombs or bullets, but childcare initiatives, retention payments, housing, the right to a family life—something the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford mentioned—and two inflation-busting pay rises.

Under the previous Government, morale was at the lowest level in a generation, and now it is rising. We cannot put the recruitment and retention issues down to one Bill. When I joined the military, I did not even know what a pension was; I would not have been tracking the legislation going through Parliament. These matters are usually down to the things people can feel and breathe—the things close to their fingers. Those are childcare, the right to a family life, service and operations. That is what keeps people in, and that is what we have done.

[Mr Francois]

Will the Minister give way?

[Al Carns]

No, I will not. That is where we have delivered the output. The previous Government failed. We are succeeding. There is a long way to go, but we are moving in the right direction. It is about time that the previous Government held their hands up and said that they categorically failed with recruitment and retention.

[Mr Francois]

Well, explain the letter from the regimental associations.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Reed]

The hon. Member has a Royal Marines base and a large veteran community in his constituency. This has been an issue, and I want it to be quashed as quickly as possible. If Ministers in the Department for Transport have not been able to confirm it, I really hope that the Minister in this Committee can stand up and say that there is no issue around these points and that the veterans railcard will continue to be in play. Hopefully, we can give it more support through the passage of this Bill so that it has a statutory footing.

Without a statutory foundation, Parliament would have no formal role in protecting the veterans railcard; that is the point I am raising. The position is hard to justify when set alongside other concessions in the rail system: discounts for younger passengers, older people and disabled travellers are already underpinned by legislation. The reasoning for that approach is clear and sensible. It is therefore difficult to see why the same principle should not apply to those who are serving, or have served, in the armed forces.

If the argument rests on trusted Ministers—I look across at the Minister and he is extremely trustful—that is not a standard applied consistently elsewhere, nor is it one that we should be asked to rely on. The new clause is carefully framed and constitutionally sound. It ensures that any future changes are subject to parliamentary scrutiny, which is exactly where decisions belong.

[Al Carns]

I thank the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford for tabling this new clause and recognising the important contribution made by members of our armed forces and the veterans community. The Government are clear that supporting those who serve and have served remains an absolute priority. That includes ensuring that they are able to benefit from discounted travel, including through the existing HM forces railcard and the veterans railcard schemes.

However, we do not consider it necessary to place a statutory duty on the Secretary of State to secure continued provision of those specific railcards, as proposed by the new clause. As set out in the Bill, the existing legislative framework provides a strong basis for the continuation of concessionary fare schemes while allowing appropriate flexibility in how those are designed or delivered over time. That flexibility is really important: it enables the railway to respond to changing passenger needs, affordability considerations and wider policy objectives while continuing to support groups for whom the cost of travel can be a barrier.

Placing a specific scheme in primary legislation risks constraining that flexibility and creating unintended rigidity in how future discount arrangements are managed. As it stands, existing discount schemes, including those for veterans and members of the armed forces, can continue to be offered via policy and operational decisions without the need for legislative prescription.

The Government remain fully committed to supporting the armed forces and veterans community, through this and other means. I reassure the Committee that there are no plans—I repeat, no plans—to withdraw HM forces or veterans railcards, and the Government remain fully committed to supporting the armed forces community. For those reasons, while I understand the intention behind the new clause, the Government do not believe that it is required and I therefore ask the right hon. Member to withdraw it.

[Mr Francois]

I thank the Minister for what he said but, given that there is still vagueness in the Railways Bill, which is why we have tabled this new clause, I am afraid that I am not entirely reassured and will have to press it to a vote.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

Uncrewed systems extend our reach. They enhance our situational awareness. They allow us to operate in dangerous waters without placing sailors directly in harm’s way. In doing so, they strengthen our ability to deter threats and to respond effectively when required. Ultimately, this measure is about alignment. It aligns modern capability with legal authority. It aligns innovation with responsibility, and it would ensure that the United Kingdom remains both secure and principled in an increasingly contested maritime domain.

[Al Carns]

I thank the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford for tabling the new clauses. The development, testing and use of uncrewed systems is vital to the UK’s defence. Not only have we seen uncrewed systems cause a significant number of casualties on the frontline in Ukraine, but we have seen their use in the Iranian conflict. To let hon. Members into a little secret, in 2017 I proposed the building of an indoor drone-testing range. Since then, or before then and continuing through, we saw ISIS’s use of drones. Now we have seen the revolution in military affairs in Ukraine. I am an individual who hon. Members will not be able to out-drone on drones, but I will say that the revolution is here to stay, and we are not going to have an option to fight differently.

After my recent visit to Ukraine, I have a couple of random statistics. At the moment, one drone equates to 22 artillery rounds in lethality and accuracy. That in itself, if we think about the height of the counteroffensive in 2023, is 900 tonnes of ammunition to the frontline. Dividing that into trucks, it is about 57 15-tonne trucks; dividing it into drones, it is two trucks to deliver the same lethality. Whatever the maths—there are lots of “circa” stats in there—the point is that drones do not just change the frontline of the battlefield. They change everything, down to logistical changes: shipping, trucks, movements, industrial pipelines and the supply chain. That is significant.

Although the Government recognise the importance of regulatory reform to the uncrewed systems sector in the UK, we are satisfied that the current law and regulations allow defence to develop, test and train uncrewed systems without the need for the new clauses. The defence uncrewed systems centre, which is coming in the future, will lead the development of testing and training for uncrewed systems, using the freedoms that the defence safety regulators already enjoy. It is not lost on me that there is a requirement for better education and communication as drones proliferate across defence. There is a lack of capacity and coherence among the different regulators. The uncrewed centre should bring them together and reduce bureaucracy, increasing a systematic approach to dealing with regulatory requirements that delivers more testing and trialling across more of the defence space.

Ongoing work by the Department for Transport and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency is further supporting the testing and training of non-defence uses of maritime uncrewed systems. There lies the critical point: defence systems have a lot of freedoms to test and trial. When companies are developing capabilities that are not defence systems, and that have not been brought into a trial as part of a procurement process, those are in the civilian space. That is where we need to make the changes, and that is why we are in discussion with the Department and the agency to do so and make things easier.

[David Reed]

The Minister has a great deal of experience in this space, and defence is working hard to unblock some of these issues. The point I raised in my speech was that it is almost impossible to work through the split responsibilities across so many different Departments and regulatory bodies. As we have had regulations built on top of one another, we end up in a quagmire. Across all these different Departments and agencies, who is the accountable head who co-ordinates to make sure that regulation is fit for purpose?

[Al Carns]

The hon. Gentleman asks an impossible question. For example, there are sub-surface uncrewed systems, surface uncrewed systems, airborne uncrewed systems, airborne uncrewed systems that come off surface systems, and surface systems that deploy uncrewed below-surface systems. Trying to find an individual or body that will deal with all of those—across the totality of airspace, sub-surface and surface regulation—is exceptionally difficult. I can assure him that we are taking all our different defence regulators and putting them together—hopefully, over time, in one location—with the experts who know the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to drones and uncrewed systems. That will make defence far more effective in articulating the requirement, procuring the systems and then pushing those systems into the Army, Navy and Air Force. That will come in due course.

I will confine the rest of my remarks to the effect of the new clauses. New clause 9, as set out in the explanatory statement, would enable an authorised person to approve the use of drones for routine testing, evaluation and training. I draw the Committee’s attention to the fact that the Defence Maritime Regulator and Military Aviation Authority can already authorise the use of uncrewed systems for routine testing, evaluation and training, and that more than 30 maritime systems are already approved for routine testing, evaluation and training. In addition, the Defence Maritime Regulator is bringing forward proposals to establish regulatory sandboxes for the testing and training of uncrewed maritime systems, in line with recommendation 39 of the strategic defence review. I think that that is due at the end of the month, but I will come back to the Committee on that.

New clause 10 would create a new authorisation regime to designate offshore areas for drone operations. In bringing forward proposals in line with the SDR recommendation, the Defence Maritime Regulator will also increase access to areas for testing and training for non-sponsored systems. The proposals therefore do not require changes to primary legislation, and are under way already.

New clause 11 would place a statutory duty on the Secretary of State to publish and lay before Parliament annually a review of the regulatory framework for uncrewed systems. Again, primary legislation is not required for such a review. The defence industrial strategy team within the MOD recently conducted a review of the regulatory system governing uncrewed systems. In addition, the Defence Safety Authority regularly conducts reviews of all defence regulations to ensure that they remain fit for purpose for new and emerging technologies.

I turn to new clause 14. The explanatory statement sets out that this new clause would enable the Secretary of State to designate uncrewed maritime systems as warships for domestic law purposes. However, the Defence Maritime Regulator already has the authority to disapply elements of civilian regulation for defence purposes.

I will just make a couple of extra points. If there is no need for regulatory change, why are certain parts of industry unhappy? The Government are already engaging extensively with industry to understand the variety of constraints that exist and we have conducted multiple reviews within the Department, as well as with civilian organisations.

I would argue that the Government are actually going faster and further to enable autonomy than ever before, and that is only going to increase. We are establishing the uncrewed centre of excellence to ensure that there is coherence. We are maximising the freedoms enjoyed by defence regulators to allow for more testing and training, and, over time, increasing capacity. Importantly, we are also exploring with the Department for Transport and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency how they can further support civilian applications in the maritime domain.

I hope that I have reassured the Committee on why new clauses 9, 10, 11 and 14 are not needed. I ask the hon. Member for Exmouth and Exeter East not to press them to a Division.

[David Reed]

I thank the Minister for his response. He has a great deal of experience in this area, and I know that there will be no one else in Parliament who is pushing for progress in it as hard as him. However, there is a systemic issue across the Government that they need to sort out. Having spent a lot of time with the defence industry, which is producing these technologies, and knowing the rate of change that companies in the industry are going through, we need to send a strong demand signal to them that we are trying to change regulation so that we can actually allow them to develop in this country, and to grow, scale up and export.

Despite those answers from the Minister, I want to try and push the new clauses as much as possible, so I will seek Divisions on them.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Al Carns]

I thank the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford for tabling new clauses 13 and 15.

New clause 15 seeks to exempt members of the reserve forces deployed on operations from the European convention on human rights for that period of deployment. As the Committee will know, the UK has an international legal obligation to comply with the provisions and protections contained in the ECHR. The ECHR provides for legally enforceable rights within the jurisdiction of the state. That includes, in exceptional circumstances, extraterritorial jurisdiction which applies beyond the territory of the state. The UK is obliged to guarantee rights under the ECHR in circumstances where the armed forces either exercise authority and control over an individual, for example a detainee, or over an area, for example military occupation.

New clause 15 seeks to change domestic law, but it should be made clear that that would not remove the UK’s international obligations under the ECHR. As a signatory to the ECHR, the UK cannot simply opt out of its obligations on a case-by-case basis. Removing the potential for these matters to be considered in the UK courts merely provides a fast track to Strasbourg. The only formal route to avoid the UK’s obligation under the ECHR would be to withdraw from the convention itself, and it is this Government’s position that we remain a party to the European convention on human rights.

That leads us to new clause 13, which seeks to emulate clause 12 of the Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill introduced by the last Government. That clause would have required any future Secretary of State to consider whether to make a derogation under article 15 of the ECHR. That article provides:

“In time of war or other public emergency threatening the life of the nation any High Contracting Party may take measures derogating from its obligations under this Convention to the extent strictly required by the exigencies of the situation, provided that such measures are not inconsistent with its other obligations under international law.”

At the time, concerns were raised that clause 12 of the Bill risked damaging the UK’s reputation for upholding the rule of law and our commitment to human rights. It was also seen as unnecessary, in that the Government can already derogate under article 15 of the ECHR, meaning that the provision did not add any additional legal power; its inclusion seems to have been largely symbolic. I am uncertain why the Opposition would seek to reintroduce the provision in this Bill, when the last Government agreed to its removal from the Bill. I therefore urge the right hon. Member not to press these new clauses.

[Mr Francois]

I have listened to the contributions during this debate, one of which I think was particularly unworthy; having heard that contribution in particular, I now wish to press both new clauses to a vote.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Reed]

I rise to support new clause 16, tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford. In the last 10 years working in the defence space—in the civil service, with industry, handing out defence contracts, running a small or medium-sized enterprise that worked with defence, and working for a defence prime—I have seen at first hand what happens when political malaise in this place slows down the defence process. I refer back to the previous discussion on automation in relation to another provision. At a time when the world is becoming far more dangerous, and when we need to innovate, work with people and carry out the recommendations of the SDR for a whole-of-society effect, we need to bring people together. We also need to make sure that the rhetoric in Parliament, which is reflective of the international system, marries up with investment. We are not seeing that at the moment.

I am sure that the Minister and Labour Members have had conversations with European and American partners who are looking at the UK and seeing the assets that we are starting to give birth to. To go back to the phrase I have used repeatedly this afternoon, if you want to grow, you have to go. Companies are seeing that they cannot get the investment here and cannot access the regulatory environment. The Government contracts are not coming out because the DIP has not been agreed yet, so they are now saying, “We want to help out the UK and defence, but we are not in a position to do that because there are no contracts.” That is happening in real time, and those companies are simply closing down or leaving, and the people with that expertise are going to other industries.

We cannot do this; it is beyond a farce. These are Government timelines. The Government said they would release the DIP back in October. That is why I do not agree with the comments of the hon. Member for North Durham about purdah and going into an electoral period, because we originally said that it would be October. It is all well and good using the election as a new excuse, but we have had since October. How can we be so late, and how can we not have a proper argument for why it is not here?

I know the Minister wants to get this done as quickly as possible—the whole Defence team wants to get it published—but there are wider problems in governance. The media has reported today that there are splits in the Cabinet about this. Conversations are being forced, and I hope that Ministers will align on that and speak out as quickly as possible.

[Al Carns]

I thank the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford for tabling new clause 16. The Defence Secretary has been really clear that we are working flat out to finalise the defence investment plan. I think it was a slip of the tongue that needs to be corrected in Hansard—

[Mr Francois]

I am so sorry, but will the Minister give way?

[Al Carns]

No. The right hon. Gentleman can wait two minutes.

[Mr Francois]

That is twice now.

[Al Carns]

Well, I do apologise.

[Mr Francois]

Thank you.

[Al Carns]

I would like to correct Hansard, because I think there was a slip of the tongue when the right hon. Gentleman said “drip”, not “DIP”. There seems to be an element of dripping going on about the DIP. Well, for 14 years there has been a dip in morale, a dip in recruitment and retention, a dip in ship orders, a dip in aircraft orders, a dip in capability, a dip in successful major programmes—48 or 49 major projects have been delayed or over budget—and a dip across a whole plethora of capability in the Army, the Navy and the Air Force, and then you wonder why the DIP is taking so long. Unfortunately, whether we collectively like it or not, you left a hollowed-out and massively underfunded—

[The Chair]

Order. I did not leave anything.

[Al Carns]

The right hon. Gentleman left a massively hollowed-out and underfunded defence.

[Sarah Bool]

The Minister is talking about the past, but we always talk about the importance of the present and moving forward. All the plans that the current Government want to put in place and give security for require the DIP. One can blame whatever happened in the past, but that does not get us any further forward. Elements of this Bill, such as the defence housing programme, absolutely require the DIP so that we can put in place the contracts that have been promised. If we do not give the markets certainty, we will never be able to make the improvements that the Government seek.

[Al Carns]

The reality is that we are already spending. We have awarded more than 1,200 major contracts since the election. There is a £1 billion contract for military helicopters in Yeovil, £500 million has been invested in state-of-the-art British Typhoon jets, and there has been a £100 million boost for the RAF P-8 submarine-hunting aircraft. The DIP needs to come, but we have collectively been left an exceptionally complex problem set. The war in Ukraine is driving transformation, and we have a hollowed out and underfunded defence, with old capability platforms arriving that are no longer relevant because of the technological revolution in Ukraine—

[Mr Francois]

What does that have to do with it?

[Al Carns]

It has everything to do with it. The Committee needs to understand the details of what has been left, because it has everything to do with it. We cannot take anything in isolation; it is all combined. As a result, we have a deeply complex problem set to deal with.

[Luke Akehurst]

Does my hon. and gallant Friend agree that the problem is not just the legacy that his Department inherited, but the wider legacy of debt that our Government inherited, which means that the path that Germany is going down—raising new finance—is not open to us? We inherited a bow wave of immense welfare spending from the previous Government, who let the welfare bill get out of control. This is not happening in isolation; these are systemic problems of government that we are having to address, and we are having to find a source of funding for the incredible investment that we now need to make.

[Al Carns]

My hon. Friend highlights that this is not just a multifaceted problem within defence or the security architecture of the nation, but a consequence of what the broader Government inherited collectively. If not over 14 years, at least in the last four years, we saw Ministers change at such a fast rate, we ceded responsibility to the civil service, and we sat in a wallow of bureaucracy and process that has delivered nothing. That is why we are having to deliver the change required to get after it. I would rather get it right once than get it wrong three or four times, as we have seen over the last 15 years.

[David Reed]

There is a major inconsistency in this new line of attack. I do not want to fall into the blame game, because we need to look forward and be in a position where we can protect ourselves and our country, but we are essentially now blaming officials. [Interruption.]

[Al Carns]

No, no, no.

[The Chair]

Order.

[David Reed]

We are now blaming officials. If the original deadline for the DIP was October, and now the argument is that the delay is because so many problems have been identified, were the Ministers’ officials telling them inaccuracies about when it could be published?

[Al Carns]

First, to be absolutely clear, we are not blaming officials in any way, shape or form. What we are saying is that when the leadership is changed every 10 to 15 minutes, consistency in command and control will be lost. An individual who has such experience in command will know that, and the hon. Member knows—the Committee knows—that when people are shuffled and changed every six months to a year, the system resets. That is not a problem with officials; it is, unfortunately, the culture that we have in large organisations. Various Committee members understand that. For a long time—the last 14 years—we have shuffled people at an unprecedented rate.

I want to clarify another point. We talked about inconsistency on the fifth floor, but there is none; we have our portfolios and we deal with those portfolios as a whole. I have been pushing really hard to ensure that the uncrewed lessons that we learned early on are included in the DIP.

Another concern was expressed pointing to individuals for being rude. I genuinely believe that a bit of self-reflection is required from Committee members on who is rude and who is not, and on how we can misinterpret what people say.

[The Chair]

Order. Let us come back to the subject of the new clause and not reopen that debate.

[Al Carns]

Our aim is to ensure that the decisions in the plan are robust and support the development of current and future capabilities to help drive the transformation of the armed forces, as described in the strategic defence review. It will be an affordable, deliverable programme to transform our armed forces, and it will highlight how this Government’s historic investment in defence will deliver warfighting readiness to deter increased threats and drive defence as an engine for growth.

We have announced the largest sustained defence spending increase since the cold war: 2.6% of GDP from 2027, with an additional £5 billion for defence this financial year and £270 billion of investment across this Parliament, ensuring that there is no return to the hollowed-out armed forces of the past.

[Mr Francois]

Ministers keep talking about this “largest sustained increase” in defence spending since the cold war. Why, then, were there £2.6 billion of efficiency cuts last year, and why is there a target for £3.5 billion efficiency cuts this year?

[The Chair]

Order. This debate is about the period in which the DIP should be published, not about how much is in the budget. Can we get back on the subject, please?

[Al Carns]

The DIP will be an affordable, deliverable programme to transform our armed forces. I hope I have provided the necessary reassurance to the hon. Member and, on those grounds, I ask him not to press the new clause.

[Mr Francois]

As a right hon. Member, I am afraid that we have just heard the same ministerial bluster that we have had for months, so I will press the new clause to a vote.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Francois]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

This is the last new clause we will debate today, so I will try to keep to the point. New clause 17 would require the Government to publish a defence readiness plan, which must include information about the numbers and readiness of reserve forces.

In a sense, the new clause gets to the heart of what people conceptually believe our armed forces are for. I have always believed that they exist to save lives, by persuading any potential aggressor that they could not win a war with ourselves and our allies. The Minister will forgive me, because he has heard this from me before, but it is summed up in the Roman military theorist Vegetius’s famous phrase, “Si vis pacem, para bellum”—“He who desires peace should prepare for war”.

When he published his strategic defence review, Lord Robertson emphasised readiness, but the official policy of the Government, as announced in that review—from memory, on page 43—was that we in Britain should be prepared to fight a peer enemy with allies by 2035. That is nine years from now. The Chief of the General Staff, General Sir Roly Walker, said about a year ago that we might have to be prepared to fight the Russians in 2027, just one year away, and the First Sea Lord is on the record in another forum saying that we might have to fight them by 2029. There is a clear dichotomy in terms of readiness between the policy of the Government and the Ministry of Defence and the policy of at least two of the service chiefs.

When the Government asked Lord Robertson to front the SDR, they knew what they were doing. He is very widely respected, he oversaw the 1998 strategic defence review, and he is also a former Secretary-General of NATO. When added to Sir Richard “not-an-armchair-general” Barrons and Dr Fiona Hill, in fairness to the Government, they had a credible front-of-house team to conduct the review. They were all adamant that the price of delivering readiness was defence spending at 3% of GDP.

What did Lord Robertson say about our preparedness and readiness to go to war, if necessary, at a speech in Salisbury on Tuesday night? He said this:

“We are underprepared. We are underinsured. We are under attack. We are not safe…Britain’s national security and safety is in peril.”

Lord Robertson is deeply respected. There is no way he could be characterised as some kind of Tory stooge; he has never been a stooge for anybody. For him to be warning us about these risks is a really serious wake-up call, and for him to accuse the Prime Minister of “corrosive complacency” in being ready to defend this nation is an extremely powerful intervention. In pub English, the authors of the review have plainly had enough. They have gone public and are being very critical of the Government. What was the point of them spending a year doing that very detailed report if the Government they reported it to have not followed up on what they advised them to do?

I note in passing that the Health Secretary is today quoted as saying that we should cut welfare to fund defence. When he was challenged about why he said that, he said that Ministers

“need to put more money”

into the armed forces, and that expenditure has

“got to come from somewhere.”

In terms of improving our military readiness—here is where I suspect we part company—we announced a few weeks ago that we would return to the two-child benefit cap. That would generate about £3.2 billion in a full year, and we would use at least half that money to increase the size of the Regular Army, subject to the problems of recruitment and retention, to 80,000 and the active Army Reserve to 40,000, making for a mobilisable Army of 120,000. There is a very clear difference between us and the Government on this.

For the sake of brevity, I end with one plea to the Minister for information. We have had our argument about when the defence investment plan should be published. We are asking for a defence readiness plan through new clause 17, but the Government have promised a defence readiness Bill. As we are pretty close to the King’s Speech, can the Minister tell us whether that Bill will be in it? If it will be, when is it intended that the defence readiness Bill—which, given its name, surely will be designed to improve our readiness for war—be on the statute book? We have Lord Robertson telling us that we are underprepared, underinsured and under attack—do not take it from me; take it from him—so where is the plan and, more to the point, where is the defence readiness Bill?

[Al Carns]

I thank the right hon. Member for his views on the Bill and acknowledge his request for us to publish a defence readiness plan that must include information about the numbers and readiness of the reserve forces. One of the main reasons we are underinsured, underprepared and under attack is the systemic underfunding of defence over the last 20 years, and since the end of the cold war, and our pursuit of usually non-state actors at a cost to our state-countering capability.

However, for the first time in decades, the Government have set a clear path for the next decade and beyond to transform and boost our reserve forces, through the strategic defence review. I reassure the Committee that we have been clear about our move to warfighting readiness, and the MOD is working around the clock to deliver that through our armed forces plan, as stated by the Chief of the Defence Staff at various recent briefings.

However, for reasons that I am confident all Members of the House will understand, these readiness plans should not be subject to a statutory requirement for publication. The House is already equipped with robust and appropriate mechanisms to scrutinise defence and defence readiness, including this Committee, the House of Commons Defence Committee, the House of Lords International Relations and Defence Committee, and the Intelligence and Security Committee.

Furthermore, the Ministry of Defence publishes quarterly personnel statistics containing data on strengths, requirements, intake, applications and outflow. The latest set, containing data up to 1 January 2026, was published at the beginning of the month. We already provide extensive information on the readiness of our reserve force, and disclosing comprehensive details of our readiness plans could risk giving our adversary a strategic advantage. I hope that provides the necessary reassurance to the right hon. Gentleman and, on those grounds, I ask him to withdraw the motion.

[Mr Francois]

We do indeed have a disagreement on principle. I suspect that the Minister might privately have some sympathy with the new clause but, for reasons we are all aware of, he cannot say so today. I will give him a chance to vote with us by pressing the new clause to a Division.

[Al Carns]

Very kind.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

That brings us to the end of our line-by-line scrutiny of the Bill. I will put the Question to report the Bill to the House once we have agreed the special report next week.

[Al Carns]

On a point of order, Mr Efford. I take this opportunity to thank all colleagues and all Opposition Members for our healthy and important debates. Importantly, I also thank all the Clerks, officials and you in the Chair, Mr Efford, for pulling the Committee together and making it run smoothly. It is not lost on me that the Bill is hugely important. A lot of the clauses are about getting us ready and preparing us should a crisis befall the country. The Bill is doing nothing other than thickening our ability to protect the freedoms that we have exercised here in this Committee Room. On behalf of those of us on the Government Benches, thank you very much indeed.

[Mr Francois]

Further to that point of order, Mr Efford. I very much echo the Minister’s sentiments. We have agreed with the general thrust of the Bill from day one. We said that we would attempt to be a critical friend and to improve it, or to make suggestions, and the Minister—to be fair to him—has said on a number of occasions that he will take things back to the Department or take a closer look. I know him, and if he says that, I know that he will. I am afraid the officials will have some extra work to do.

Thank you, Mr Efford, for chairing our proceedings with a light touch and, if I may say so, a sense of humour. I thank the excellent Clerks for assisting us with amendments and providing good advice, and for organising the excellent visit to Portsmouth. I hope that we have done the House some service. Along with all my colleagues, I thank all who have been involved in this process. We look forward to producing our report and to debating these matters on Report.