Adam Jogee
Main Page: Adam Jogee (Labour - Newcastle-under-Lyme)(2 weeks, 1 day ago)
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Adam Jogee (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker—I feel like I have just won the pub quiz, being called first. Christmas has come early!
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on Second Reading of the Heritage Public Houses Bill, but before I do, I would like to say the name Donna Ann Reece. Donna was 38 and a constituent of mine, and sadly, Staffordshire police has launched a murder investigation after she was found dead at a property in Clayton in my constituency on Monday this week. An investigation is under way, so we have to be very careful in what we say, but let me say this: every woman in our country and across the world deserves to live freely and safe from the effects of male violence, and I will do whatever I can to make sure that happens in Newcastle-under-Lyme. I thank the emergency services for their diligence and pray that justice will be done. Of course, I also extend my condolences to Donna’s family and friends, who are grieving at this time. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Yardley (Jess Phillips) will no doubt call Donna’s name next March for International Women’s Day, but I thought it was important that I did so today here. Thank you for your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Turning to the Bill, who doesn’t like a visit to the pub for cold refreshments of all kinds?
Adam Jogee
I do not know what happens in Kensington, but we like a cold refreshment in Newcastle-under-Lyme.
I love visiting and supporting the many excellent pubs in Newcastle-under-Lyme and our surrounding communities in north Staffordshire and south Cheshire. With that in mind, I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood), my county colleague, for bringing the Bill to the House today. I am very pleased to see my old friend, the Minister for Homelessness, Democracy, Communities and Faith, in her place—old in length of friendship, not in age, just for clarity, otherwise she will never accept an invitation to come and see us in Newcastle-under-Lyme!
All of us know how important our local pubs are to knitting our community together, boosting our local economies and, importantly, making the very best of the hard work of Britain’s farmers and their produce. Newcastle-under-Lyme is home to a number of historic pubs, all worthy of a visit, all welcoming to old and new, and all with a strong recommendation from their Member of Parliament in the House today. Take the Old Brown Jug down on Bridge Street, the scene of many a gig played by my late uncle Colin Cooper and his Climax Blues Band through the ’60s and ’70s. It is a fabulous building that dates back to the mid-19th century. I should declare an interest, in that the Jug felt like my unofficial office during the selection campaign to be Labour’s candidate in Newcastle-under-Lyme.
Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend rightly highlights that pubs are a venue for historic music. Does he not think that this Bill is rather limited in describing heritage as being simply about the building, when sometimes the events in the building are also deserving of heritage status? I think of the Cavern Club in Liverpool as another example, and I wonder if he has any more to say about the history of the particular venue he highlighted.
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend, as ever, makes an important intervention. We all know how soulful and tuneful she is, so I am not surprised that she sought to intervene on that point.
Adam Jogee
Certainly not heritage. My hon. Friend is right. The Old Brown Jug did not just play host to my uncle Colin and the Climax Blues Band. It has played host to many a small gig, many a local band and many a young person almost as soulful and tuneful as my hon. Friend, and I feel sure that it will continue to play host to others in the future.
Anna Dixon
One of the pubs in my constituency, the Woolpack in Esholt, was the pub used for the filming of “Emmerdale”, if there are any fans of that show here. Although the building itself may not have huge heritage value, the pub has huge cultural heritage value, which ties in with what my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) said. Does he agree that we need to capture that wider cultural heritage value, such as that which the Woolpack in Esholt has for TV fans?
Adam Jogee
I am not sure what it says about me that the minute my hon. Friend said “the Woolpack”, I knew that she was talking about “Emmerdale”, although I suppose in my constituency, the Rovers Return from “Coronation Street” is a bit closer to home. She is right.
As she points out, pubs have played a role in so much of our culture, identity, heritage and history. It is important that we are comprehensive in our assessment and support.
To go back to my—thankfully—ultimately successful selection campaign to be Labour’s candidate in Newcastle-under-Lyme, it was, in many ways, the Jug wot won it. Also on Bridge Street, the Bridge Street Ale House, run by “Grum” Newbury, has an ace Irish music night on a Monday evening, a great quiz on a Tuesday, and good vibes all through the week. I am grateful to “Grum” for all he does to keep our town in the minds of local people looking for a good time, for being a destination that people want to visit, and for holding my feet to the fire on what feels like every day.
The Museum on George Street is a small and mighty tribute to the history of our community, and it is on the road to our southern border with our neighbours in the city of Stoke-on-Trent. Lastly, the Old Bulls Head, just up from my office, is the oldest pub in Newcastle town centre and dates from the 14th century. Only the Old Bulls Head is a listing building, and sadly none of the pubs that I have mentioned, and recommended to the House in the strongest terms, appear to be included on the list of assets of community value. That puts such key parts of our heritage at risk of owners moving on, the selling of local landmarks to developers or other businesses, and the sources of real community spirit being lost for ever. We cannot take risks or let that happen by default.
We must fill in the gaps to keep pubs from being sold off and demolished. Like many in my community, and I suspect like colleagues in their own communities and pubs, I would be devastated to see any of our public houses, and their hard-working staff, forced out of business. I am sure colleagues across the House would agree with that. Pubs old and new are places to learn, to enjoy, to understand, to share, to laugh, to celebrate, to console, to make memories and sometimes, I suspect, also to make mistakes.
Over recess, we were campaigning hard in the Newcastle town by-election, and I am delighted that Labour’s candidate, now Councillor Andy Fox-Hewitt, gained the seat on an 18% swing to the Labour party. With the by-election taking place in our town centre, my team benefited from being close to many of our excellent heritage pubs and waterholes for our post-canvass catch-up and note taking on casework. On more than one occasion we were in one of our historic pubs and enjoyed every moment of it. That election day, October 8 2026, my two Labour predecessors, Baroness Golding and Paul Farrelly, were out campaigning with us and, for old time’s sake, enjoying some of our heritage pubs.
Staffordshire, from my community in the north on the Cheshire and Shropshire borders to that of the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire in the south, on the fringes of the west midlands combined authority, is home to great people. We have a responsibility to protect and preserve the places where people spend time with others and find a real and meaningful community spirit. Everything is relative, however, and many pubs that will appear to be historic to an 18-year-old might feel less so to someone at the other end of the age scale. With that in mind, and with thought to the principles of the Bill and the importance of heritage public houses in my community and up and down the country—including, I am sure, in Bradford—I wish to touch on a number of the other excellent pubs in Newcastle-under-Lyme.
One of the greats is Mellards Bar in our town centre. I wish to give a shout out to all the team and extend my congratulations to them. It has just been named pub, beer and ale venue of the year at the Love Newcastle-under-Lyme Awards held at St Giles church last Friday. Mrs Jogee and I were there and enjoyed it immensely. It was amazing to see an old church—I think it was built in 1873, if not earlier—hosting an awards night. We were sitting in the pews, and there were lots of jokes, as you can imagine. Some people would probably enjoy being able to have a pint while sitting in a pew on a Sunday morning, but we will see whether Reverend Josh allows that to happen. I am delighted to have the opportunity to acknowledge the hard work done by all the team at Mellards, who have got the recognition they deserve.
Dame Meg Hillier
On the connection between beer and churches—and some religious orders—Hackney Church Brewery runs a bar as part of its mission in the wider community, underlining how historic institutions can come together as part of the cultural heritage of the beer and pub industry.
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend is completely correct. My father, if he were here, would share stories about the Jesuits who taught him at school and how they enjoyed some of those different organisations and institutions coming together. I will probably leave that there.
In communities up and down the country, former churches have become pubs and homes, so there is an interconnected relationship between them. It is important that we do whatever we can to hold on to that heritage, celebrate it and talk about it, even if some parts of the country might not be as jazzy as Hackney South and Shoreditch. It is hard to compete—we will have to divide on that later, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Chris Murray (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not just churches that can turn into pubs? I am reminded of the Tolbooth Tavern on Canongate in the Royal Mile in my constituency. It has previously been a centre for local government and a prison, and it is now a pub. Does he agree that somewhere that can combine government, politicians, alcohol and a prison may be a good idea for the future?
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend makes an interesting intervention. The Edinburgh Festival takes place in his constituency. My wife and I, and some of my cousins, went to the festival earlier this year for the first time, despite both of us having lived in Edinburgh at separate times before my wife got stuck with me. I not sure if we went to the pub he mentions, but we went to many places during our two days in Edinburgh. I will resist the temptation to talk about prisons—that is a dangerous road to go down—but there is certainly a benefit to people socialising and coming together at the heart of our politics. Obviously, not everyone drinks alcohol, but that does not mean they cannot benefit from being included in the community spirit that underpins and drives most, if not all, pubs and communities up and down our United Kingdom. When I hear my colleagues from Scotland speak, I think of the Better Together campaign. My hon. Friend has made an excellent intervention that speaks to the strength of our United Kingdom.
Let me come down from Scotland and up from Hackney and go back to Mellards in Newcastle-under-Lyme. People of all ages come from far and wide to Mellards for “Alan’s Kwiz”, held every Thursday, keeping our good old fashioned pub traditions alive and providing an opportunity for Mellards’ faithful regulars to have a mid-week catch up and to learn, too. When I was there on “Kwiz night” a couple of weeks ago, one of the answers involved my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and another referenced the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition—Alan just gave me a knowing smile.
As I have said in the House before, soon after my election to this place I launched my very own Newcastle-under-Lyme best pub competition. It was a timely and enjoyable opportunity to visit, celebrate and enjoy the pubs in our community. Each time we have run the competition, there have been nominations flying in from every corner of the constituency. It is always fantastic to hear about all the different things that local people in our community love about our pubs. In the end, last year’s winner was the Little Vic on King Street. I am conscious that we have to be careful about our security, but that is our local. It is an excellent place and I am often given casework when I am in there. It topped the poll among my constituents, and I put on record a big thanks to Sophie, who was doing some charity fundraising not long ago that involved putting cream on weak and useless paper plates that get thrown in people’s faces—I cannot remember what that is called, but colleagues know what I mean.
Adam Jogee
Custard pies—of course. Morecambe knows what I am talking about. Sophie went through the embarrassment of having the custard thingies thrown at her.
Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)
On the subject of custard pies, will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lincoln Jopp
The hon. Member is making a very long speech, which is ranging widely, and I have slightly lost the thread. If this private Member’s Bill went to a vote, would he vote for it, against it or abstain?
Adam Jogee
The hon. Gentleman talks about custard pies—that was a very watery custard intervention. We like full-throated creamy custard here. [Interruption.] He says that I have spoken too long; I have not spoken long enough. You gave me an early Christmas present by calling me first, Madam Deputy Speaker, so I shall use the opportunity provided by you, and by my constituents in sending me here. If the hon. Gentleman sits back and relaxes for a little longer, he will hear a little more about what I think and how we should proceed. Whether we agree may be a different matter, but I am sure he will enjoy it none the less.
Our pubs play an important role in our international relations. The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Lincoln Jopp) is a shadow Foreign Office Minister, so I hope he will listen to this part of my speech with the attention he is known for. On Australia Day 2025, alongside members of Silverdale parish council, I welcomed the then Australian high commissioner, the hon. Stephen Smith, to the Bush Inn in Silverdale. As the House will know—because I suspect that, like the hon. Member for Spelthorne, it pays attention to everything I say in this House—our town was the birthplace of the sixth Prime Minister of Australia, Joseph Cook.
When Cook returned to the United Kingdom as Australia’s high commissioner here in the 1920s, he celebrated in the very same pub that we took Mr Smith to. My team and I and many other local people, not least the parish council, have traced Cook’s local story—rather unsurprisingly, he was a miner down the pit—and we raised a toast to his legacy. The only problem with Cook is that he started off in the Labour party and ended up as a Tory, but nobody is beyond redemption.
Another much-loved pub is the Gresley Arms on Alsagers Bank, which is known for having the best views in Staffordshire. The fantastic beer garden is an excellent way to spend a summer evening or, as my crew is used to, a final stop after a long day of pounding the pavements, as we get to enjoy one of our heritage public houses. The Albert first opened as a beer house in 1861—I hope this is enough heritage for the hon. Member for Spelthorne. It is run by Emma, and it is a great community pub. In fact, I took another Australian high commissioner to the United Kingdom, the hon. George Brandis, there on his visit to Newcastle-under-Lyme. I look forward to taking you to both pubs when you come to see us, Madam Deputy Speaker. That is just another example of how our pubs play such an important role in all that we do. I should say that the secretary of my constituency Labour party, Alderman Sylvia Butler, is a loyal and devoted champion of the Albert—long may that continue.
There are so many pubs that mean so much to our community. I would happily spend all day speaking about all of them, but I do not want to upset the hon. Member for Spelthorne any more. I welcome all my colleagues from all parties to come and join us for a pint back home in Newcastle-under-Lyme—it could also be a soda and lime, or anything else. Whether it is the Archer in Wolstanton or the Westbury Tavern—
Alex Ballinger
My hon. Friend is giving an excellent speech. He has talked about the many excellent beers available in his constituency. Does he know that elsewhere in the west midlands, he can find fantastic cider in Roberto’s bar, which is right in the heart of Halesowen? Can he talk about the other alcohol options that are available not just in heritage pubs, but in pubs all across the country? It is quite a surprise that the third-best cider pub in the country is found in Halesowen.
Adam Jogee
I am enjoying this, as I think has been said by others before. My hon. Friend makes a very important intervention, and he is right.
People can get all manner of refreshments at heritage public houses in all parts of the country. I am not sure what refreshments you would choose if you were having some of the Spelthorne watery custard, Madam Deputy Speaker, but you can certainly get a good, cold pint. You could also get a bitter lemon, which I know was ordered by the former Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher, when she was at the Rovers Return. My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon) has gone, but we have talked about Emmerdale. I remember a clip of Baroness Thatcher at the Rovers Return in which she ordered a bitter lemon. That is just one example of the things people could drink there.
My observation of Mrs Thatcher does not go much further than that—I saw that quizzical look from my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Lizzi Collinge)—do not worry. There is certainly a range of things. I am surprised that the Conservative party does not want to take a moment to talk about this, because it supposedly believes in choice. The great thing about our heritage pubs is that not only are there so many up and down the country that we can choose to go to, but, when we get there, the choices are infinite.
I am not a cider fan myself, but I wish cider drinkers in Halesowen and other parts of the west midlands very well indeed.
Let me take us back to the Archer in Wolstanton, the Westbury Tavern, the Swan in Betley, the Boat and Horses, and the Sneyd Arms on Higherland—the list goes on and on, as my speech is doing this morning, unfortunately for the hon. Member for Spelthorne. At the end of the day, our pubs are about so much more than somewhere to have a pint, a cuppa, a Coke, a juice, or the many other options that my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen (Alex Ballinger) has allowed me to reference this morning. They provide an opportunity to see familiar faces and catch up. In other words, they make us feel like we are part of something—a neighbourhood, a village—and it is so important to our collective and individual happiness and wellbeing that that is so. We will all have heard stories from our communities of people who notice that someone has not been at the bar or has not been in recently, and that person is often checked up on. Most of the time, it is for a positive reason, but some of the time it is not, and without the connection and sense of community that pubs provide, people would not be able to do that.
I would like to say a couple more things about how we can support and protect our heritage pubs. The first is by ensuring that our town centres are safe and secure places to travel, to walk and to be in. Local people in Newcastle-under-Lyme are rightly furious that in recent times, antisocial behaviour and criminality have emerged far too frequently around the sunken roundabout and particular hotspots in town. I hope that all the relevant authorities, from borough and county councils to Staffordshire police, get a grip of this situation and ensure that all measures—including those introduced by this Government—are used and used quickly. Our town is a wonderful place to live, learn and work, and we cannot allow it to be blighted by crime and antisocial behaviour, not now and not ever. I am sick and tired of women in Newcastle-under-Lyme telling me that they do not feel safe going into our town; I do not want any woman in my family, or who I represent, to feel that way. We will not successfully protect and defend our heritage pubs if people are not going to spend their money there because they do not feel safe. I hope the relevant authorities have heard me loud and clear.
My second point is about the impact of incompetent decisions taken by local authorities, and what those can mean for celebrating and maintaining the heritage pubs that our towns are home to. Take the current situation on Brook Lane. Our town has essentially come to a standstill at rush hour in recent weeks because Brook Lane has been closed for several weeks, and is scheduled to be closed for several more. I wrote to Staffordshire county council—I suspect that the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, whose Bill we are debating this morning, shares many of my frustrations with that council. Even if the hon. Member for Spelthorne does not want to hear it, I know that my honourable county colleague will agree with me on this. I wrote to Staffordshire county council on 1 September, and I had to write to it again this week, because no letter has arrived in response to mine.
This is important, because Staffordshire county council has announced that it plans to introduce further road closures on surrounding roads. That is going to compound the situation, and will make it even more difficult for people to get to the Bridge Street Ale House I spoke about earlier, or to the Jug pub, not to mention all the other things that people have to do.
Anna Dixon
We had a similar problem with an accident on the historic bridge close to the historic pub in Harden. That road closure, which lasted for an extended period of time, and those roadworks had a significant impact on people’s ability to get to and from that lovely historic rural pub in my constituency. These disruptions can have a significant economic impact on our heritage pubs, and I agree with my hon. Friend that councils need to do a much better job of speeding up roadworks and getting them completed on time, as well as making sure that they think about the impact on our pubs.
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend, with whom I almost always agree, is completely correct to point out the frustration caused to businesses and residents of communities, and the impact on the ability of pubs, shops and businesses generally to trade, survive and thrive, as a result of incompetent decisions made by incompetent people. From Shipley to Staffordshire north and south—if I can speak for the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire—we agree.
We cannot support our heritage pubs, nor can we add them to our list of assets, if they no longer operate because of—as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley has pointed out—stupid decisions resulting from incompetence, or just nonsense from people who should know and do better. Our pubs are places where our communities are formed, and where we share stories of our past and our heritage from generation to generation. If we were to lose them, we would be losing a huge part of our shared history. Our historic public houses each have their own unique character and charm.
Dame Meg Hillier
Once again, my hon. Friend highlights that it is not just about the building, but about the events that take place and the conversations that happen, as he refers to obliquely. Major historic moments have happened in public houses—some of them were, of course, coffee shops at the time—so does he have any examples of such historic moments that he might like to expand on?
Adam Jogee
My hon. Friend is determined to make sure that the hon. Member for Spelthorne never speaks to me again, which may be a blessing, so I am grateful. She puts a question to me, and through me to all colleagues who may be thinking about how they can answer it in their contributions, and she is right. There are many places where people find a place to sit, to come together and to make things happen, whether it is to campaign against injustice and inequality or to call out councils for bad decisions. For example, there are the families campaigning on road safety in Newcastle-under-Lyme, particularly after the recent incident where a father was knocked down taking his child to school. An organisation has come together following their frustration and experiences. That is just one example. My hon. Friend can point to many places in her community where that will have happened. I look forward to her, when she catches your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, being able to share some of the stories from her part of the world, as I know others will, too.
The important point about conversation is that pubs are so often home to or locations for that shared, connected thread of history, experience and understanding that goes through from the generations before us to today, as we seek to look to tomorrow. I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and the chance to spend a minute thinking about the importance of those conversations and what happens behind the doors of our public houses, not least the older ones.
If I may, I will return for a moment to the Jug on Bridge Street, which, as I said at the beginning, was my unofficial office during my selection campaign. From a family perspective, it was like going full circle. My mother’s eldest sister, my auntie Carol—sadly late now—married my uncle Colin, who was the lead saxophonist in the Climax Blues Band, who released “Couldn’t Get It Right” and many other brilliant tunes that will have been played in pubs up and down the country, from Spelthorne to Staffordshire. I held on to that sense of connection with someone who had used the pub for years before me. I thought it was quite nice, and it was a source of comfort as I went through membership lists—you will remember this, Madam Deputy Speaker—trying to remember who I had and had not spoken to, what they had or had not said, what they wanted to say, and what I wanted to say back. The power of that connection and story is important. I am grateful to my hon. Friend, even though she is now on her phone—I tease—for giving me the opportunity to spend a minute thinking about that.
Our public houses each have their own unique character and charm, and we cannot let the generations to come to miss out on a crucial part of our heritage and our culture. This is the longest I have spoken since I was elected to the House, and I am annoyed that I did not write more, since I have the floor, but I extend my thanks to all those in every way who keep our pub sector alive in Newcastle-under-Lyme. They do so much for the community and our local economy. In many ways, our island nation home would be so different if it were otherwise.
Joe Powell
I appreciate that my hon. Friend may be drawing to a close, but as he is thanking people around the country who run these pubs, will he give special congratulations to the now more than 200 community-run pubs? There are co-operatives, too. These pubs are taken on by the community, who want to save their pub because they appreciate the value that it brings. Does he have any co-operative or community-run pubs that he might want to thank, or will he just join me in general in thanking that movement?
Adam Jogee
I could point to many excellent examples of that sense of community, but I am conscious that others may want to speak. I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, and he is right to raise that issue. It speaks to the people power of community, and I thank him for his intervention.
Our historic pubs are at the heart of our communities, and once we lose them, we rarely get them back. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire for bringing this Bill to the House today, for giving us the opportunity to debate these important issues, and for giving me a chance to speak about the excellent public houses, both old and new, in Newcastle-under-Lyme. I know that colleagues from across the House, and from across our United Kingdom, will do similar shortly.
We must keep working to make sure that our pubs are preserved and supported. As I speak in this debate today, I think of all the happy times I have spent with friends, family, loved ones and many a constituent across a pub table—happy times indeed!
Several hon. Members rose—
Brian Mathew (Melksham and Devizes) (LD)
I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) for bringing forward this valuable private Member’s Bill on historic British pubs.
I have some wonderful examples in my constituency, including, among others in Melksham, the King’s Arms, which has been named by Historic England as a grade II listed building; the Bear, which was used as a coaching inn in the 18th century; and the Market Tavern. In Devizes, there is another Bear in the hotel on the Market Place; the Lamb Inn, which dates back to the 15th century; the White Bear Inn, which is grade II listed and reputed to be the oldest pub in Devizes, dating back to 1567, and which is allegedly haunted; and the Black Swan Inn. In Urchfont, there is the Lamb Inn, a thatched pub dating back to the 15th century. In Potterne, there is the George & Dragon, which, again, dates back to the 15th century and is recognised on the national heritage list. In Market Lavington, there is the Green Dragon, which dates back to the 17th century. In Sells Green, near Seend, there is the Three Magpies, another grade II listed pub, which has links to the canal. In Bradford on Avon, there is the Barge Inn, the Three Horseshoes and the Swan, which sadly closed in September 2023.
Adam Jogee
The hon. Gentleman mentioned that one of his pubs dating back to the 15th century is haunted. Can he tell us what it is haunted by?
Brian Mathew
I will not go into the ins and outs of hauntings, although they may be of great interest to the hon. Member.
In Box, there is the Northey Arms, a historic inn close to the Great Western Railway, and the Queens Head, which is famous locally for its music. In Colerne, there is the Fox & Hounds, a grade II listed pub, and the Six Bells, which dates from the 18th century. In Winsley, there is the Seven Stars.
Some pubs in my constituency have closed and then reopened with community support—the Hop Pole in Limpley Stoke is a worthy example—and others are in the midst of this struggle, such as the Ivy in Heddington, which has closed. The Somerset Arms in Semington has received support from none other than His Royal Highness Prince William, the Prince of Wales.
Historic pubs need our support. Moreover, all pubs and communities need an economic shift from the supermarket to the pub, and I hope that the Chancellor is listening as he writes his Budget speech. The people need the pub, and the future of our country needs these pubs.