Historical Institutional Abuse (Northern Ireland) Bill [Lords]

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Tuesday 5th November 2019 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

Let me join the Secretary of State in applauding the fact that the House has seen fit to move the Bill so swiftly through the House today. I want to place on record our thanks to my colleague Lord Hain and Lord Duncan, the Minister involved, because they were instrumental in ensuring that this House had the opportunity to move things forward.

I want to say to those with us today who are victims, representing many other victims, that this Bill would have been necessary had there only been one victim of this kind of abuse. We know that many thousands suffered—thousands more than will come under the ambit of the scheme, because many of them have already died, and we cannot offer anything by way of recognition or compensation to those people. But today we are saying to those who are with us that we recognise what took place, and it is a matter of real and profound shame to every one of us in this country. It is also a matter of anger, and we should use that anger to ensure that we are determined to do everything we can to insist that this cannot be the pattern for the future. We know that sexual abuse will take place in Northern Ireland and in the whole of the United Kingdom. This should impel us to do everything we can to protect our young people and those who are victims, because we have to learn the lessons of the past.

That is the triumph for those who have been through this campaign. They have campaigned for themselves and those they represent, but they have also campaigned on a much wider basis—they have campaigned for decency and justice for people across this land of ours. The real emotion that was rightly expressed by the Secretary of State, by my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) and by others is not just about empathy. It is because we profoundly believe in the need to ensure that there is justice for those who have campaigned and those they campaigned for and, in the end, to set a different moral tone around this issue for the future. This is a good Bill, and I thank all our colleagues for making it possible to pass it today.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

The Secretary of State referred to the fact that the Bill went through Committee very quickly; I do not think I have ever chaired such a quick Committee. That indicates the unity in the House around this Bill, and I know that if it were not for the special circumstances we are in, many more Members would have wanted to be here to show their support.

Question agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Ordered,

That, at this day’s sitting, the Speaker shall not adjourn the House until he has reported the Royal Assent to any Act agreed upon by both Houses.—(Maggie Throup.)

Northern Ireland

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State knows that it is inevitably with considerable regret on both sides of the House that we once again confront the need for these regulations to be passed. Come the 13 January deadline, Northern Ireland will have been without an Assembly and Executive for about 1,100 days, if by then there is still no newly formed Executive or Assembly in operation. I hope the general election campaign will be conducted in Great Britain and—even more importantly—in Northern Ireland with the kind of decorum that does not entrench antagonism between people and that we come out of it more likely to reach agreement in this Parliament, yes, but most certainly in Stormont. Elections can be healing, but they can also of course be divisive.

I do not plan to say an awful lot more. The Secretary of State and I, and the Minister and the shadow Minister, have debated these issues many times. We could once again talk about the paucity of decision making that bedevils Northern Ireland, the things that are not being done and the problems this causes. Those things are a matter of record. It is important that there is continuity of Executive function over the next weeks and in particular that the Secretary of State does not find himself in the extraordinary position of having to call an election during that period.

I do not think the House has any ambitions to do anything other than pass these regulations, but I am bound to finish on the following note. We are now at the end of the road for this particular process. Whatever follows in the new year has to be more creative—let me use that word—and the creativity may be the creation of an Executive and a Northern Ireland Assembly that functions.

Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 30th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

May I say to the Secretary of State that we well understand why the fast-track process has to be used for this legislation as we approach the general election? Obviously, the needs of the people of Northern Ireland require that there is a budget to provide the vital services on which they depend. It does however make it all the more paradoxical—and, I think, shameful—that the same fast-track process was not available for the Historical Institutional Abuse (Northern Ireland) Bill to make its way through Parliament. I hope that even at this late stage those words are echoed from the Secretary of State, who I know is sympathetic to the case, to the business managers, who have so callously let those people down. It is an embarrassment for him, but it is extremely difficult to justify the decisions of the business managers when everyone in the House would be prepared to make time available for that legislation.

The right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire) is in the Chamber. I remark on that simply because he was the Secretary of State when Stormont collapsed. Since then, we have recycled Secretaries of State and the paralysis in decision making in Northern Ireland continues.

There are some technical issues that we ought to address. One of the questions in any budgetary process ought to be an account of value for money. However, there is almost no capacity for any form of scrutiny of the efficiency of the spend from this budget. That is as unacceptable to hon. Members from Northern Ireland and taxpayers in Northern Ireland as it is to taxpayers anywhere else in the United Kingdom. Value for money is fundamental to any form of Government spending or public spending, and the scrutiny required for that is not available for this budget.

[Sammy Wilson]

The shadow Secretary of State is making an important point about the inability to scrutinise the efficiency of the spend. Does he also accept that we do not even have a chance to look at the relevancy of the spend? Much of the spending that goes on in Departments is determined by decisions made by an Executive four years ago, and new priorities that are emerging in Northern Ireland do not get a chance to be considered because civil servants cannot initiate new measures.

[Tony Lloyd]

I have enormous sympathy with the point made by the right hon. Gentleman. One thing we do know is that there has been significant demographic change in Northern Ireland in the last three years. The population is growing increasingly elderly and the number of young people, in relative terms, is decreasing. Therefore, the decisions made by politicians those years back may still be relevant in some areas, but in others they are beginning to be stretched.

[Emma Little Pengelly (Belfast South) (DUP)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is currently not only a lack of scrutiny and reactiveness, as outlined, but a lack of transparency? I have written to the head of the civil service on numerous occasions to ask about the additional money that goes into the Northern Ireland budget—I accept that it is by way of unhypothecated Barnett consequentials, which is not ring-fenced, and decisions must be made on where it goes—and I get a fairly stock response simply to say, “This is not ring-fenced. We will have discussions and civil servants will decide.” Civil servants have done nothing to open up their processes to scrutiny and transparency. It appears that they are still unaccountable to anybody. We now see this Bill, which outlines their decisions, rushed through this House with very limited scrutiny. It is letting down the people of Northern Ireland.

[Tony Lloyd]

Again, I have real sympathy with the point made by the hon. Lady. It is similar to the point made earlier by the hon. Member for South Antrim (Paul Girvan) about ring-fencing of moneys for the high streets and the inability to trace those moneys. In fact, some time back I raised with the previous Secretary of State whether it would be possible to have an accountability mechanism whereby the Northern Ireland civil service would respond to questions from Members of this House so we could scrutinise its decisions for exactly those reasons and provide at least transparency, even if that would not necessarily lead to proper accountability of the spend made.

These are really important issues, and they would be important even in an annual budget. If this was the budget for a large local authority—the Greater Manchester Combined Authority budget or that of the London Mayor are, I suppose, equivalent to the budget of Northern Ireland—we would be astonished if we did not have the capacity to scrutinise it. I say to the Secretary of State that I think the time is coming when we will need to look again at how the scrutiny process takes place; that will not be resolved today, but clearly we have to look at it.

I have some questions for the Secretary of State. I should say that we do not intend to block the Bill in any way, shape or form. It is vital that it goes through, and the amount of time available does not allow for any rarefied debate about more than the general outlines. However, there are some issues that we must begin to address. I nearly quoted the permanent secretary at the Department of Health, but I shall paraphrase: he said that Northern Ireland has the money for a world-class health service, but it just does not have the money for the health service that Northern Ireland has. In that, he was referring to the fact that the Bengoa reforms, which would and could have transformed the health service in Northern Ireland, had not been implemented.

There are issues about areas where we know the spend is no longer adequate. We know, for example, that Northern Ireland now has longer waiting lists than any other part of this United Kingdom. We know that mental health provision is unacceptably poor in Northern Ireland; I have to say that it is poor in my own constituency, but it is nevertheless particularly bad in Northern Ireland. The chilling fact that more people have committed suicide since the end of the troubles than people died during the troubles gives some indication of the need for improvement in those services.

We know about social care and the demands on it—again, this addresses the point made by the right hon. Member for East Antrim. We know that the number of elderly people and the dependent elderly is growing all the time in Northern Ireland, just as it is in my own constituency, but the capacity of the budget to deal with those issues has remained largely unchanged. We know that education spending is no longer appropriate: Northern Ireland still has a high standard of results in its educational system, but too many people are now being left behind because of the inappropriate nature of the education service.

I would particularly like to continue the questions raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field), which my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth) raised in Question Time earlier. The Minister of State has used words like “the same refrain” when saying that the answer lies in getting devolved governance back. I understand that that is the long-term answer, but we are going to face a crisis for some individual families because of the exhaustion of the welfare mitigations. It is not simply about housing: it cuts across other areas of spend where those mitigations are protecting families now. The Secretary of State’s response was that he would look to see what could be done by him and the Northern Ireland Office. We have to look very closely at the Secretary of State and Northern Ireland Office working with the Northern Ireland civil service, and that is important.

Let me ask a specific question. Does this budget contain money for the Stormont House bodies? Those bodies ought to be set up imminently, of course, so money has to be made available for them. We need to know that the proper provisions are there. Equivalently, and this is also important, if the historical institutional abuse Bill is not going to come before Parliament immediately, I hope it will be introduced rapidly by whatever Government take their place after the election so that that legislation can come into operation. That means we need to see within this budgetary framework, resource available for HIA victims, who deserve not simply our compassion but our recognition and our financial support.

I need in that context to ask the following question. The Secretary of State has been very specific: he has undertaken to see whether it is possible in terms of welfare spend to use imagination around the powers that do exist. I wonder whether he will now begin to apply the same kind of imagination to see whether it is possible to create within the framework of the existing spending operations something that begins the process of reconciliation, even if it is just the simple acknowledgment of payment to victims of institutional abuse. Money clearly is not everything in that context, but if it is possible, even without the legislative framework, to find an imaginative way of making some form of payment, that would at least go some way to showing the willingness of the Government and the Secretary of State, which I know is there, to try to rectify the failure of the system and get this Bill through Parliament.

This Bill is important—I think everybody accepts that. Nobody is going to want to block the capacity for the structures to operate within Northern Ireland over the coming three months, so it is important that this is passed today before Parliament is dissolved. We will support the Secretary of State in moving it through Parliament, but there are some issues that he and his Department need to begin to look at and see whether there are at least some patches that can be applied that can make a material difference to those who would most suffer if we do not get the answers right.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Julian Smith]

I appreciate my hon. Friend’s intervention. That is exactly the approach that the Government will take. We cannot be hard and fast. We must be inclusive. We must ensure that the payment scheme, for which many Members have campaigned on behalf of constituents throughout Northern Ireland, applies to all victims. We talked about the period of the troubles during the consultation, but I was also careful to ensure that we would not be restricted to that and that we would work with Opposition parties to bring about a better definition if we need to define a period that is acceptable to us all.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

While we are on the subject of compassion, may I ask the Secretary of State to clarify the position in respect of the Historical Institutional Abuse (Northern Ireland) Bill? There is a rumour that the Government do not plan to introduce it in the House of Commons in the immediate future. That may not be true, but it would be a retrograde step, and I should be grateful if the Secretary of State commented on the Bill’s progress.

[Julian Smith]

The hon. Gentleman is posing questions about business management that I was qualified to answer a few months ago, but I am now in the hands of the business managers. I will say that today’s debate in the other place was extremely moving. The Labour party, the Democratic Unionist party and the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) have been hugely supportive of the Bill. We need to accelerate it and drive it forward, and I will continue to make strong representations, to my successor and to the Leader of the House.

Northern Ireland: Restoring Devolution

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) (Urgent Question)]

To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to make a statement on progress towards restoring devolution in the light of today’s extension of the period in which the legal duty to call an Assembly election is removed under section 2 of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Julian Smith)]

The period for Executive formation under the terms of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Act 2018 is due to expire at the end of today, Monday 21 October, so I have laid before Parliament a statutory instrument to extend the period for Executive formation to 13 January 2020. That has the effect of ensuring that Northern Ireland Departments can continue to make decisions in accordance with the Act in the absence of Executive Ministers. Colleagues should be clear that the Act only provides guidance to the Northern Ireland civil service and is no substitute for everyday political decision making.

In reflecting on hundreds of interactions I have had with public sector workers, voluntary workers and members of the public, I understand that this continued absence is a huge disappointment. This extension also delays the legal obligation on me to call an Assembly election, but does not prevent me from calling an Assembly election at any time. The political parties have not reached an agreement to get Stormont back up and running, but extending this legal deadline has no bearing on my continuing efforts to restore the Executive.

As a result, from tomorrow, in relation to abortion law in Northern Ireland, sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 are repealed, and there will be, in addition, a moratorium on criminal prosecutions. A new legal framework for lawful access to abortion services in Northern Ireland will be put in place by 31 March 2020 in line with the 2018 UN convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women report. I will be consulting on the new framework very soon.

On same-sex marriage and opposite-sex civil partnerships, regulations are to be made no later than 13 January 2020. There are two key areas on which we will consult: how to allow for religious same-sex marriage ceremonies; and the issue of conversion from civil partnership to marriage and vice versa. So that we can tailor the regulations appropriately, there will be a short consultation on these two issues before we introduce religious same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland. This will not detract from the regulations by 13 January 2020, providing for civil same-sex marriages and opposite-sex civil partnerships. The first civil same-sex marriages will take place in the week of Valentine’s day 2020.

We also intend to launch a public consultation on a scheme for payments to victims of troubles-related incidents in the coming days. I am also determined to ensure that the Government deliver on our commitments to broader legacy issues.

I cannot overstate the responsibilities of the Northern Ireland parties to find an accommodation and to ensure the future of the devolved institutions that form such an essential part of the peace process.

--- Later in debate ---

[Tony Lloyd]

May I begin, Mr Speaker, by thanking you for granting this very important urgent question? Both the number and the importance of the issues that the Secretary of State has already raised with the House indicates how important it is that we have regular dialogue on Northern Ireland, but let me say to Government business managers that that has not been forthcoming at the level that we expect.

May I ask the Secretary of State a number of very specific questions? Brexit, according to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, may still result in our crashing out of Europe. Is the Secretary of State certain that he has, already in preparation, the necessary legislative changes to bring before this House in the event of that no-deal Brexit? Even if we have a Brexit deal, is the Secretary of State satisfied that the Northern Ireland civil service, under the legislation that exists, has the necessary authority to make the very difficult decisions that it, and indeed other agencies, may have to make as we move through that Brexit process?

In particular, can the Secretary of State assure the House that the Police Service of Northern Ireland has the resources that it needs in the event of any form of civic disturbance? I do not want to emphasise what kind of disturbance there could be, but we may face a period of prolonged public unrest. Does the PSNI have the resources and the capacity to play that role? Will he also rule out any idea, as we have had in the past, of recommitting the Army to Northern Ireland?

The Secretary of State mentioned the important issues of abortion and same-sex marriage. If Stormont returns in the period between now and 13 January, will he work with Stormont to ensure that we have an acceptable solution? Given that post 1 April Stormont will have the capacity to alter any such law, will he ensure that Stormont and his Department work together to ensure that there is safe and legal abortion for the women of Northern Ireland in Northern Ireland, and that same-sex marriage can take place in Northern Ireland?

In the event that Stormont does not return, the Secretary of State needs to plan now for what will happen on 13 January. We know how quickly time goes by in the context of Northern Ireland. Just look at how quickly time has already gone by—1,000-plus days since Stormont met. The Secretary of State will face a difficult decision, and direct rule is a very unattractive proposition for many reasons. He may have to look at the election option to renew the mandate of a Stormont Assembly that has not met for so long. In any event, will he guarantee that he will work with the Irish Government in Dublin to ensure that strand two of the Good Friday agreement is respected?

There is unease across the Unionist community about the Prime Minister’s decision to change the terms under which consent is given by Northern Ireland. The Good Friday agreement was very clear about the need to take both communities together through any decision making around important constitutional issues for Northern Ireland. Does the Secretary of State accept the unease of the Unionist community? Does he also accept that he now has a duty to work hard to regain that trust—a trust that has frankly been betrayed by the decisions of Conservative MPs who once were Unionists and who have now abandoned their erstwhile friends?

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 7

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 30th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

May I begin by repeating what the Secretary of State has just said, because we can ask no more of the victims, and obviously we can ask no more of Lord Justice Hart. The report before us includes this telling sentence:

“There is no doubt that victims of abuse have shown incredible dignity throughout the inquiry and that an apology is long overdue.”

In fact, the victims have shown incredible dignity over the many years they have suffered as a result of the abuse and as a result of the delay and obfuscation by the political system, which failed to address the record of the past and the needs of those individuals. I share with the Secretary of State and with his predecessor, the right hon. Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), the view that that there is a sense of urgency, as we have heard in the Chamber. The hon. Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield) is right, and made the valid point that between 1922 and 1995, the period covered by the Hart inquiry, there were significant amounts of time under direct rule, when the responsibility for the governance of Northern Ireland lay with Whitehall and Westminster. We should bear that in mind, because it gives us all the sense that we need to bring this to a credible conclusion.

The Secretary of State will know that the shock that was experienced when Parliament was prorogued several weeks ago was felt across the whole of Northern Ireland and across the whole nation, and by no one more than the victims of institutional abuse, who thought that that the probability that at last they were seeing some resolution of their suffering was about to be truncated. I hope that today we can give some comfort to those victims that all is now back on track.

[Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab)]

We are here today because the Prime Minister prorogued Parliament illegally and tampered with our timetable for debates and discussion. Does my hon. Friend, like me, recognise the importance of all the nations—England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and, of course, Wales—that make up our United Kingdom? Does he share my grave concern about the downgrading of the important issues we are discussing that affect people across Northern Ireland? Those issues should not be an afterthought to fill the agenda, but today they very much feel like they are.

[Tony Lloyd]

That puts into context the unfortunate remarks last week of the Attorney General, who told us that this Parliament had no moral basis. This Parliament has enormous moral compass, no more so than when we examine the kind of issues that we are now examining. This is the message that ought to go out. There can never be a time when the House of Commons is irrelevant, and that is certainly not the case when we are debating the justice and urgency that victims are entitled to have. Members of the House of Commons must be here to do that.

There are things in the report that I strongly welcome. I strongly welcome, for example, the appointment of Brendan McAllister as the interim advocate, as that is an important step forward. From 12 August, I think, Mr McAllister has been engaged in work that he can achieve. In the end, we want a permanent commissioner to be appointed so that they can work across the piece, particularly with victims of abuse.

I do not need to speak for an awful lot longer, as I simply want to make one point. The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) is absolutely right that we need a firm timeline. I would strongly welcome the return of devolved governance in Stormont. Every Member of the House ought to want that. If it can be done and the legislation can expeditiously be put through that Stormont process, we welcome that. However, in the absence of Stormont we need a definitive view that this can be completed in the House of Commons.

[Ian Paisley]

I share the absolute commitment of the shadow Secretary of State—let us see the Assembly back up and running. Would he therefore make a request on behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition to the Secretary of State to call a meeting of the Northern Ireland Assembly tomorrow at 10 am, and see who turns up and wants to do business?

[Tony Lloyd]

I think that, regrettably, things are more complicated than that. I will say to the hon. Gentleman, however, that if the commitment is there to see Stormont back in operation, we will all, like him, do everything we can to support the process. One of the interesting aspects of the report is a recognition that all parties come together in agreement on this important issue. That is a lesson that ought to be taken back: when there is the will to move things on, there is political agreement, even between parties that are otherwise divided.

[Lady Hermon]

Does the hon. Gentleman share my disappointment at the tone and the content of what the Secretary of State has said this afternoon? He has been, rightly, enormously sympathetic to the victims, and has rightly praised Lord Justice Hart for his report—sadly, Lord Justice Hart died before he could see this legislation on the statute book—but my colleagues and I are unanimous in our disappointment that there is no sense of urgency.

The Secretary of State needs to be aware that, under the European convention on human rights, there must be an effective remedy for any breaches of the human rights guaranteed in that convention, and that includes the guarantee that everyone should be free of degrading treatment. The victims of historical institutional abuse were certainly not free of degrading treatment in those homes as children. Will the Secretary of State, when he winds up the debate, show some sense of urgency about getting this legislation on the statute book? All of us here will support him in that tone and in that effort.

[Tony Lloyd]

The hon. Lady has made a powerful point. I share her regret—I suppose that that is the right word—that Lord Justice Hart is not around to see the conclusion of his work, but we should nevertheless pay tribute to it.

This matter is urgent—there can be no doubt about that—and we now look to the Secretary of State to map out for us what kind of timetable is possible and practical in the absence of a Stormont Government. Let me say to him, on behalf of the official Opposition, that this is not the kind of legislation that we would seek to delay. It is not the kind of legislation that we would seek to deliberate on to make life difficult for the Government. In the end, this is about justice: it is about justice for people who suffered, and whose suffering was continued by the failure of all our institutions to recognise their plight. In that context, we will work with the Secretary of State, and we will work across the House of Commons and, no doubt, in the other place, to ensure that if legislation can be introduced at an early stage, it can go through this House.

Let me also say to the Secretary of State that, just as with other legislation that is conditional on the return of Stormont—the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), for example, referred to legislation on abortion—if it is the appropriate way of moving things forward here, we will of course avail the Secretary of State in taking legislation through this Parliament.

I join Northern Ireland Members, but I also join Members throughout the United Kingdom, because the abuse of our young people—whether it took place in England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland—is a stain on our nation. If we can now secure an adequate system of redress that is not simply financial but involves all the other matters in the Hart report, it will serve as a template for the entire United Kingdom. It is something that we should welcome not only across the whole of the House of Commons, but across the whole of this nation of ours.

Wrightbus (Ballymena)

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 30th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Julian Smith]

I do not think it would be appropriate for me to comment on the loan. On the question of how the absence of Stormont affects these jobs, yes, not having a devolved Executive is making a big difference, but between Invest NI, the Government, the Northern Ireland civil service and a campaigning and dedicated local MP, we are showing that we can get things done. I hope that we can get some positive news out of what is currently a very difficult situation.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

May I join the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) in underlining the importance of this issue? For Ballymena, the loss of 1,200 high-paid, high-skilled jobs is enormous; these jobs matter enormously.

There are a number of questions that arise. First, we need to examine the role of the administrator. In the context of British Steel, the then Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and the then Chancellor arranged that the official receiver would take responsibility. This had the effect of keeping British Steel as a going concern. Could we take the same kind of approach to Wrightbus to ensure that there is a possibility that it can be moved on as a going concern, with the existing skilled workforce?

My second question relates to the land. As I understand it, when Japan Tobacco International Gallaher vacated the site, the land was gifted across. I also understand that one of the current drawbacks to a sale of Wrightbus is the possibility that the land will be seen as an asset by those who would make profit from it. It would therefore seem reasonable for the land to be transferred intothe public domain so that there is no question of people profiteering from what was a gift from Japan Tobacco International.

Thirdly, I emphasise the question of the hon. Member for North Antrim regarding investment in the technologies of the future—battery technologies and green technologies—so that Wrightbus can join the other bus manufacturers in the UK that can tour the world selling world-class products.

Having seen the situations at Bombardier, Harland and Wolff, and now at Wrightbus, one thing that is obvious is that three of the marquee names in Northern Ireland manufacturing are under pressure. We need to see an industrial strategy for Northern Ireland now, particularly given the possibility that Brexit will have a dramatic impact, especially if it is a Brexit that sees a border down the Irish sea or across the island of Ireland. We need a strategic view of the long-term future of manufacturing in Northern Ireland.

[Julian Smith]

My experience in Northern Ireland from the two major issues I have been working on recently with regard to the economy—Harland and Wolff, and Wrightbus—is that the administration companies have been working very well with all stakeholders.

As with the Church loan, I do not think it is appropriate for me to comment on the matter of the land, other than to say that I urge anyone who can do anything to unlock the process of making a successful sale to a successful bidder and preserving jobs to do everything they can to be as flexible as possible.

On the matter of low emission buses and bus technology, Wrightbus is second to none in leading-edge bus technology, which is why I remain confident that we can get to a better position than we are currently in and we can protect jobs.

On the interrelationship between Brexit, Wrightbus, Harland and Wolff and Bombardier, I have made it clear since taking this role that it is in the best interests of Northern Ireland that we get a deal. That is what I am doing, and that is what the Prime Minister is doing.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 3(2)

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

I would like to begin by making the very obvious point to the Secretary of State that had he been consulted on the question of Prorogation, and had his advice, if he had been asked for advice, been accepted—that Prorogation was inappropriate precisely because of the volume of work on Northern Ireland that needs to be done in this House—then we would have made more time and space for debates on Northern Ireland across all the issues that the House will not be able to debate tonight. This is an important issue. In the end, he has been let down by others in his Government. I need to emphasise that point, because it will come up time and again.

The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) is absolutely right to make the point that we should have had a debate tonight on historical institutional abuse. The Secretary of State is also right. He has met victims of that abuse. He knows not only how strongly they feel, but how many of their lives were changed because of what happened to them all those years ago. This House and this society of ours owe them an obligation. The Secretary of State made it clear that he will push for early inclusion in a Queen’s Speech. However, we need a guarantee not only of that but of early movement by the Government—any Government—on this issue. That also applies to the issue of victims’ pensions—we need to see early action.

Like the Secretary of State, I need to race through a number of issues, and some I will have to leave for another day. On abortion, the Secretary of State is right. I say to Democratic Unionist party Members and, through the media, those who are unhappy with the present situation, that they have some capacity for resolution in their hands. If we can see Stormont up and running—if we can see an Executive and an Assembly up and running—then of course that is the remedy to people’s concerns about this legislation. It is important that people take that point away and do not simply shuffle off with the usual finger-pointing, saying “It’s them over there that are doing it”. People in this House have to take their responsibilities seriously as well.

[Sammy Wilson]

Rather than the hon. Gentleman throwing out what he knows is a non-solution, given that Sinn Féin have been driving the pro-abortion agenda in Northern Ireland that has been taken up by Members of his own party, what has he done to try to persuade his friends in Sinn Féin to get back into the Assembly? He knows that as long as they remain in a position where they veto the formation of an Assembly, the solution that he says is in the hands of the people of Northern Ireland is not a solution at all.

[Tony Lloyd]

I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that the members of his own party who are taking part in the negotiations have a duty on them. Yes, of course, that duty extends to representatives of Sinn Féin. I want all parties to get around the table. I will come on to that a bit later on, but he cannot avoid the responsibility that members of his own party have in getting Stormont up and running. For nearly three years, we have had the absence of Stormont—three years of people making excuses about the fault lying elsewhere—and it is now time that people accepted responsibility for their actions.

I have to ask the Secretary of State, or perhaps the Minister who responds to the debate, about abortion. The House has committed to offering safe and legal abortions to women in Northern Ireland. There needs to be confidence in the law, those we expect to operate it and the way that it works. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), who has campaigned tirelessly on this issue, is important. Consultation is fundamental to all this, but again, Prorogation has dealt the Secretary of State a very difficult hand, because the House will return on 14 October, and on 22 October the legislation will come into effect. That means that the capacity for the House to make decisions to fill the legal gap that will exist between 21 October and 31 March is real. The consultation needs to take place now, and the House has to be ready to implement legislative change as soon as we are back, in the middle of October.

On veterans, the Secretary of State made some very important points—I know that he comes under pressure on this. If the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith) is saying that we as a House are very clear that illegality by members of the armed forces, like any other member of society, like members of the IRA and like members of loyalist terror groups, will have the same outcome—that the law will be applied—that is really helpful, because we are then talking about how we move forward in a way that allows independence of investigation and of prosecution, which the Secretary of State referred to. In the end, it is important that the Stormont House bodies, which were agreed to by all parties in Northern Ireland, are allowed to operate, because victims who saw their loved ones killed and who were themselves victims of terror have rights in this, including the right to know that there is a proper investigation, whoever and whatever was the cause of their victimhood.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I did not intend to intervene on the hon. Gentleman, but as he raised that point, I will. The point that I, and I think many of my colleagues, are making is that those who have served and have left—some are in their seventies, and so on—face this unedifying process of suddenly being hauled back, not because there is compelling evidence, but in the hope that people may find something that was not available to them at the time. That is surely the key issue— a lack of natural justice—and it has to be stamped on.

[Tony Lloyd]

I understand what the right hon. Gentleman said. I simply say that it is a shame that proper investigation did not take place at the time. He will agree, as a former soldier, that he would not have countenanced illegality by those he worked with. Every decent soldier I know of would agree with that premise—that illegality was not what our armed forces were sent to undertake in Northern Ireland. I hear what he says; I am not sure that we are a long way apart on this issue.

Turning to the issue underlying all this, it is three years since the Stormont Assembly and the Stormont Executive were last working. We have seen the impact in areas as wide as health, education and the way in which the interface takes place—I know that the Secretary of State was agitated about the lack of powers that he had with respect to Harland and Wolff over the summer months, for example. We need to see change take place and Stormont back together. I pay tribute to his predecessor, the right hon. Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), and him for the close working relationship that they have developed with the Tánaiste, Simon Coveney. It is important that there is a close working relationship between Dublin and London.

The single biggest threat to the United Kingdom at the moment is a no-deal Brexit, and the part of the United Kingdom facing the biggest threat is Northern Ireland, where the impact of a no-deal Brexit would be devastating, in a way that would go beyond the impact on my constituents and those of other Members in England, Scotland and Wales. The impact in Northern Ireland would not be simply economic, although the economic impact would be enormous. There would be an enormous impact on agriculture, on manufacturing, on services, and not simply on the social mores that have developed over the last 20 years, since the Good Friday agreement. There would be an enormous impact on the capacity to cross the border easily, and so on, and not simply on identity, which the Secretary of State referred to, though of course that is a fundamental issue.

The Good Friday and St Andrews agreements were milestones in establishing peace and a very different climate in Northern Ireland. It is important that nothing be allowed to jeopardise that, and a hard border, which there would be with no deal, would jeopardise it. We have seen in the Yellowhammer papers that people are concerned that we are drifting towards a no-deal Brexit. I note today the words of the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, making it clear that Ireland is not prepared to accept a promise in place of legal guarantees. The Taoiseach speaks for many on the Opposition Benches.

We have an odd situation. Parliament does not trust the Prime Minister, the Irish Government do not trust the Prime Minister, and the right hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) does not trust the Prime Minister on this issue. In that context, I say this to the Government: we are facing Prorogation and a period when our Parliament cannot act. The Secretary of State himself made it clear how important it was

“in the run-up either to a deal or no deal, that the very tricky decisions can be made, and I am sure that those will have to be made at pace.”—[Official Report, 5 September 2019; Vol. 664, c. 364.]

Of course, he is absolutely right. We will have to make decisions very quickly, and Prorogation makes that more difficult.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

The shadow Secretary of State talks about the threat to the Good Friday agreement. Can I suggest to him that right now the biggest threat to that agreement and to the peace process is the fact that none of the political institutions in Northern Ireland are operating, and that the North South Ministerial Council is not operating and has not been operating for two years and nine months? Those who brought the institutions crashing down present the greater threat to the political institutions in Northern Ireland. It is all very well saying that we do not trust the Prime Minister. With all due respect, trust has broken down in Northern Ireland not because of the actions of any UK Prime Minister, but because one political party decided to take the ball and walk off the pitch, and will not get back on until it gets its way. That is where the threat comes from.

[Tony Lloyd]

I have some difficult news for the right hon. Gentleman. The disillusionment in democratic institutions stretches across all communities in Northern Ireland, including in his constituency. I talk to those people. Those who want to see Stormont working are desperately worried that the politicians—all politicians from all backgrounds—are not making the necessary progress.

I will conclude, because other Members want to speak. I want to finish by putting some specific points to the Minister. Prorogation has made it difficult for this House to make the decisions it will have to make. We will come back here on 14 October, and between then and 31 October, if we have no deal, we will have 11 sitting days. Some of those will be taken up by the Queen’s Speech. The Secretary of State rightly promised the House regular updates. The first will take place before the House returns. We need those updates to be meaningful to reassure not simply this House but the people of Northern Ireland that there is a plan and a strategy to move this forward. We need to know—the Opposition will co-operate with the Government on this—that there is the capacity to make the legal decisions that will be necessary to move the situation forward, but they have to be the right decisions and there has to be dialogue across the Chamber and an exchange of information.

There also has to be—this is really important—a maintenance of the dialogue between Dublin and London, so that when we take action here we know there will be support from the Government in Dublin so that people from all communities can be reassured that a concerted effort is being made to bring this situation to an end.

[Julian Smith]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for the remarks that he has just made, which I think were very responsible. I hope not to have to come back to discuss these matters with him, but I want to put on record my thanks for his comments.

[Tony Lloyd]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State, because I am confident that he meant what he has said. I hope that, between us, we can see a move away from a no-deal Brexit, but in the event that that does not happen, we must ensure that we work together to avoid a catastrophe that would be disastrous not only for the economy but for the people and the future of Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Thursday 5th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will respond to the urgent question of which I have given prior notice?

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Julian Smith)]

First, I thank the hon. Gentleman for his constructive work over the summer on a range of issues, including those relating to Harland and Wolff. Secondly, may I remind Members that I have been held captive in the Whips Office for over three years and that this is therefore my first Dispatch Box appearance? I have to be honest and say that I am very grateful not to be the Government’s current Chief Whip.

As is my duty under the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Act 2019, I will publish a report on or before 9 October to update on progress. Throughout the period ahead, I will be doing everything I can to support and encourage talks to succeed. Democratically elected politicians in Northern Ireland are best placed to take the decisions needed to support hospitals, schools and the police. I have seen the excellent work of civil servants in Northern Ireland over the last few weeks, but of course they cannot take the proactive decisions that are needed on public services or the economy in the run-up to 31 October. If we cannot secure the restoration of an Executive, we will pursue the decision-making powers that are needed at the earliest opportunity.

[Tony Lloyd]

I welcome the Secretary of State to his role and his appearance at the Dispatch Box. He will know that Northern Ireland is in a unique position in the United Kingdom: it has no devolved Government, nor does the Secretary of State or any member of the UK Government have powers to deliver the kind of transformation that is needed. I know from my conversations with senior members of the Northern Ireland civil service that they are frustrated by their inability to make the decisions—whether on health, education or the issues that we now face—that Northern Ireland so desperately needs.

In that context, we face the Prorogation of Parliament and the possibility—I accept it is a possibility—of a no-deal Brexit and a general election coming fast down the track. The Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Act 2018 will expire some time in October, and I have a number of specific questions that I need to put to the Secretary of State about the good governance of Northern Ireland.

The first examines the question of Prorogation. We know that we face the possibility of Prorogation next week and that that provides enormous challenges in terms of governance. Yes, if we can see Stormont back in operation, that will achieve what we need, but does the Secretary of State accept that there are real dangers during a period of Prorogation, in terms of the governance of Northern Ireland? Will he tell the House precisely when he was consulted about Prorogation? What advice did he give to the Prime Minister and other members of the Government?

Turning to a no-deal Brexit, the now Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), told the House before the summer that in the circumstances that it “voted for no deal”, or in any case, if there were no deal, “we”—the Government—

“would have to start formal engagement with the Irish Government about…providing strengthened decision making in the event of that outcome. That would include the real possibility of imposing a form of direct rule.”—[Official Report, 13 March 2019; Vol. 656, c. 391.]

The Foreign Secretary told the “Today” programme that direct rule would require legislation and made it quite clear that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland would need to follow that up. Does the Secretary of State accept that some form of direct governance—of direct accountability—would be necessary in the event of a no-deal Brexit? Can he tell us what steps he is taking?

Finally, in any part of the United Kingdom we expect the security of our people to be paramount. There will be some real questions about making sure that the Police Service of Northern Ireland has the resources that it needs. Will the Secretary of State tell the House how he intends to make sure that the allocation of those resources ensures that the PSNI has the resource base and numbers that it needs? If this were your constituency, Mr Speaker, or Rochdale, Skipton and Ripon, Wales or Scotland, this situation would not be allowed to happen. I hope that the Secretary of State shares my view that this cannot be allowed to frustrate and put Northern Ireland in a position of discomfort, or worse.

[Julian Smith]

The hon. Gentleman asks about dangers. I think I have been very honest with the House that powers are needed to ensure, not only in the current situation, where civil servants across Northern Ireland are making difficult decisions without political direction, but obviously in the run-up either to a deal or no deal, that the very tricky decisions can be made, and I am sure that those will have to be made at pace.

The hon. Gentleman asks about the legal advice on Prorogation. It was not something that I or my Department was involved in. That was a matter for the Attorney General. As Parliament is aware, the Cabinet was updated shortly before the decision was announced.

On what happens if the talks do not succeed in time, again, I have been clear that we need to have powers at the earliest opportunity because some of the challenges that will emerge will do so fairly soon, but we have to operate in the environment governed by the Good Friday agreement. On that point, certainly in the discussions that I am having with the Irish Foreign Secretary on the talks, the relationship is very positive.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the PSNI. As he will be aware, the PSNI has gained about £20 million of additional funding. However, when we look at how we direct funding and make those decisions, we see that, to ensure that a large and important part of our country is not left ungoverned at a difficult time, we do need powers to be in place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julian Smith]

The Government are fully committed, as are the Irish Government, to the common travel area in all deal and no-deal scenarios.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker—

[Mr Speaker]

As the hon. Gentleman’s point of order appertains to the matters of which we have just treated, I will take it if it is brief.

[Tony Lloyd]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Secretary of State was very candid in his admission that he was not consulted about Prorogation. Important decisions have to be made about Northern Ireland’s governance over this period. Can we have a clear statement, perhaps from the Prime Minister, that there will be time, either before Prorogation or at a convenient time for this House, to give the Secretary of State the power to do the things that Northern Ireland needs?

[Mr Speaker]

Does the Secretary of State wish to respond?

Draft Historical Abuse Bill (Northern Ireland)

Tony Lloyd Excerpts

Wednesday 24th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[John Penrose]

The draft legislation that has been sent to us does not go into that level of detail about what might be pursued. What is clear is that in order to ensure that financial probity is maintained, the costs of the scheme will be met from the Northern Ireland block grant. That is important, because the measure should be done, as I mentioned at the start of my remarks, by the devolved Assembly spending the money it is in charge of. It therefore has to be money that the Assembly has control of, and we all obviously hope that it will be back up and running as fast as possible to exercise that control.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

I place it on record that I am not a prophet—the Prime Minister has not given me any indication of what the Northern Ireland team will look like—but I thank the Secretary of State and the Minister for their courtesy in our mutual dealings. That said, it is now more than two years since Sir Anthony Hart’s report was made available, and virtually seven years since the Historical Institutional Abuse Act (Northern Ireland) 2013 began going through the Northern Ireland Assembly. Since the Hart inquiry report, 40 of the survivors we are aware of have died. They are people for whom there will never be justice, but even for the existing survivors, every day that goes by is not justice delayed, but injustice continued. I therefore strongly support the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) in his plea for real urgency.

It may be that the House cannot see the Bill in the next two days, but we will come back in September. It seems a perfectly reasonable request to see the Bill on the Floor of the House then. As the Opposition, we will expedite this and we will work with the Government and Back-Bench MPs to ensure that the Bill’s passage is as quick and efficient as possible, but I have one specific request for the Minister. Can he think seriously about whether in the interim it would be possible to give some down payments, almost, of compensation to survivors as evidence of good faith and of real intent that we will at last give some sense of justice to the survivors of things that should simply never have been allowed to happen?

[John Penrose]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his kind comments about the Secretary of State and me, but also for the further evidence of the cross-party support and the shared sense of urgency and determination to move forward as promptly as we can with the legislation. That is welcome, and it increases the chances that under the new regime, whoever is in it and however it will be formulated, we will be able to continue the momentum that has only recently developed.

The hon. Gentleman is also right to say that there is a huge sense of frustration, mainly brought about by the fact that the Hart report came out just as the Northern Ireland Assembly ceased sitting. Something that I suspect would normally have been taken forward promptly by MLAs and the Executive there was therefore not taken forward with anything like the same degree of urgency, because they were not there to do so and the matter is properly devolved. Everyone here will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s kind offer, and I hope that that will make any potential imagined obstacles to introducing legislation during the course of this autumn that much lower in the minds of the business managers when we come back in due course later on this year.