European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting
Monday 20th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has remarked on the fact that the ambition and scope of this amendment are quite modest compared to the amendment that we debated last week in Committee. The redrafting has been wise. Gone is the requirement that Parliament should approve the negotiating mandate and stance of the Government and in effect give them their marching orders in the negotiations. The Executive must be allowed to do their job and in turn Parliament should do its job, and we should respect the separation of powers. It is for the Executive to negotiate the future relationship and it is for Parliament to hold the Executive to account. Parliament has numerous means of holding the Executive to account in the form of Questions, debates, Select Committee inquiries and many other procedural resources, and I anticipate that it will use that array of resources very extensively in the months to come.

I would add that I do not think that it is appropriate for parliamentary procedure to be prescribed in statute, and it is particularly inappropriate that this unelected House should make proposals of this nature to the House of Commons, which I suspect will not take very kindly to being told how to do its job.

All in all, I welcome the modification of the approach that is reflected in the amendment and I congratulate my noble friend and her colleagues who have thought it wiser to proceed on this basis rather than the one proposed the other day.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, this is an unusual Bill in a number of ways. We were debating in Committee that it has a clause which restates that parliamentary sovereignty has been established, so we are talking about some fairly fundamental constitutional issues. The relationship between Parliament and the Government is one about which I have heard Ministers make a number of self-contradictory comments in the days and weeks since the election in the rather triumphalist tone they have adopted. One Minister referred during the Committee stage to restoring the “normal relationship” between Parliament and the Government, by which I think he meant a nice safe majority in the Commons so that it does not criticise too much what the Government want to do.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, talked about the dualist approach to international negotiations whereby treaties, once they have been agreed, have to be transposed into domestic law and thus Parliament comes in, as it were, after the event. Given the importance of this negotiation, if one does believe in the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, the Government need to carry Parliament with them. That is the constitutional set of issues here, and we look forward to further discussions on what the constitution commission the Government are going to set up will be about. If it has the sort of forethought and consideration which was shown in the suggestion thrown out this weekend that the House of Lords might move to York, I have to say that it is not going to be a very good commission because it is quite clear that there was no thought behind that whatever.

It is not just the constitution; it is also about wisdom. Some of us heard the noble Lord, Lord Wilson of Dinton, remark in Committee that in his long career he had noted that it is when Governments are most self-confident and convinced that they can survive criticism that they are most likely to make mistakes. Here we are after an election in which the Government have established a majority on less than 45% of the vote, but it is a majority in the Commons according to our current antiquated rules. The wisdom of carrying the public and Parliament with them as they negotiate—particularly if they are going to negotiate for as hard a break with the European Union as the Chancellor has suggested—seems to me very powerful.

While I was at Chatham House, I was much involved in the various discussions about establishing the single market, and I remember all the talk then about why the Prime Minister was persuaded that the single market was in Britain’s interest and the extent to which we were taking our regulations for a large number of industrial and other standards from the United States extraterritorially. The Government are now suggesting that we will establish our own independent standards. An editorial in the Times this morning said that maybe we should not exclude chlorinated chicken, so we can begin to see that, if we move away from European standards, we will move under American standards, and that will be part of what emerges from the US/UK trade agreement.

I support this amendment on constitutional grounds and on the grounds of political wisdom. Parliament deserves to be carried along with the Government and the Government need to explain and justify their objectives as they proceed.

[Lord Bowness (Con)]

My Lords, I have added my name to this simplified amendment. In Committee, I appealed to the Government to recognise that many people remain concerned about the nature of our future arrangements with the European Union. This is not about for or against Brexit but about the future. The Government appear to want us to take everything on trust, but we need to know in advance not the details of their negotiation but the approach they will take in negotiations.

This is not a novel idea. I know that in the United Kingdom we are not keen on adopting approaches taken by other countries, but—without going into the details—I refer Ministers to the working of the grand committee of the Finnish parliament. It is a good start to learn how other parliaments reconcile coming to an agreement with their Governments about their approach to European Union matters and the attitude we seem to be taking. That approach, with modifications, is to be found in the proceedings—and indeed, so far as Finland is concerned, in the constitutions—of member states. It is not a novel idea.

Statements, Questions and take-note Motions in arrears of events are no substitute for the kind of procedures to which we refer. The citizens who accept Brexit but want to ensure that we try to keep as many of the benefits of the last 40 years as possible need to be listened to. If the Government do not bring forward any amendment at Third Reading to deal with this, I am afraid many people will feel that the Government, in the name of an ideological pursuit of a hard Brexit and possibly no deal, have no intention of healing the divisions in the country. The Government need to establish some trust among the rest of us.

Brexit: Workers’ Rights

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My noble friend makes a point that is definitely worth making. I note that an issue we face constantly in the EU is the discrepancy between the ideal and the delivery. To look at one aspect, the transparent and predictable work conditions that have been passed in directive form will not be brought in until 2022. The Government have already brought in elements of that directive.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister correctly emphasised that most of these EU standards are minimum standards, and that in many cases we considerably exceed them. Could he therefore explain why the Government have put so much emphasis on having the right to diverge from those standards, when the only argument that many of us have heard in favour of divergence is so that we could lower them? We can always exceed those standards without running into any difficulty—but what is the purpose of this enormous emphasis on divergence?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I often wonder what will happen when the EU begins to diverge in directions that are not suitable to this country. We must make sure that the laws we make here are suited to our workers. That will not always be the case if we follow in lock-step with the EU. We need to be ready to make laws that are fit for workers in this country.

Yorkshire: Devolution

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Monday 16th October 2017 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to progress devolution to Yorkshire.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, we welcome the discussions council leaders and others are having in Yorkshire about future devolution. If they come forward with a widely supported proposal for a greater Yorkshire deal involving a mayoral combined authority and not unravelling the existing Sheffield City Region deal, we are, of course, ready to progress it with them.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, 17 of the 20 councils in Yorkshire came forward, on an all-party basis, with a one Yorkshire deal earlier this summer. The Minister will be well aware of the difficulties now that Barnsley and Doncaster have withdrawn from the Sheffield/South Yorkshire deal. It has also had strong support from regional business—the Conservative Party used to be the party of business. Can the Minister tell us why the Government are giving the very strong impression that they do not support a one Yorkshire deal and why the Yorkshire Post reports this morning that a number of Conservative councils across Yorkshire have apparently now withdrawn their support for this all-party, one Yorkshire deal?

House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness]

I am very surprised that we have not heard from my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire. What is the Government’s view on this? Do they think that this Bill is of such depth and importance that it constitutes the stage two to which my noble friend Lord True has referred, or do they think that we should be bound by the agreement of 1999? As I said, it is very surprising that we have not heard from our government Front Bench on this.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the Government are not in favour of undertaking piecemeal reform. We are moving with all deliberate speed towards second stage reform. I am sure that all Members of this House have read the Draft House of Lords Reform Bill. I have now read the transcript of the first two meetings of the Joint Committee considering it. As noble Lords know, we are proposing a wholly or mainly elected reformed second Chamber, which will of course end hereditary membership, allowing for hereditaries to stand for election or to put themselves forward for appointment.

Perhaps I might be allowed to add that I happened yesterday to speak to a cousin of the late Lord Onslow. She reminded me that he liked to say that he saw absolutely no reason why the historical accident that one of your ancestors had got drunk with Pitt—he used a rather more evocative term than “drunk”—should qualify you for membership of a House of the legislature.

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[The Earl of Caithness]

Will my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire answer the question that I posed to him. Do the Front Bench, and he as spokesman for the Government, think that this Bill constitutes the necessary reform for the removal of by-elections?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I understood that I had already answered. The Government prefer thoroughgoing reform and we are moving in that direction with the current draft Bill. We hope that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and others will give full support to that Bill when it comes through and expedite constructive discussion of it when it reaches this House.

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I am a little worried that we will reduce the numbers too much. I have an idea that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, would like to see a House of 300 people. I am a little worried because, if all the existing committees are to be staffed and government posts to be filled, I do not think 300 Members will be sufficient. I think we would be looking at nearer 500. There are 375, or thereabouts, places on our various committees and, although some sit infrequently and can be sat on by people who sit on committees that meet every week, that does not take account of government Ministers or the various other party Front Benchers. They amount to another 60, minimum. So you are getting quite near 500. I am of course talking about a voluntary House such as we have at present, and not one where the Members receive salaries and can be expected to work non-stop.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the debate has wandered a little from the amendment under consideration to the broader proposals the Government have produced. Let me remind the House that, as has already been stated, under the Government’s proposals Members of this House will serve for a term. That will resolve the question of an age limit.

Amendment 129 is grouped with Amendment 128 and, under these two amendments, there will be an upper age limit for the House of Lords but not an upper age limit for membership of the House of Commons. It is specifically allowed for in Amendment 129 that Members of this House, on retiring at the age of 75, will be free to stand for election to the House of Commons.

[Lord Swinfen]

My Lords, if we have an upper age limit for membership of this House we will be throwing away a terrific amount of experience and wisdom. The vast number of noble Lords who came in with the increase since the last election were appointed to this House by the leaders of the political parties in another place. It is not the fault of this House that its numbers have grown. I suggest that as, say, five Members of this House die and, therefore, no longer sit, they are replaced by only two or three new Members. We will need new Members to keep new and younger blood coming to the House, but in that way we could have a gradual reduction in numbers.

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[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, these are interesting amendments. Although I realise that this is a Private Member’s Bill, I know that the government Benches believe in giving people a second change. That is commendable in many ways and I certainly believe in the rehabilitation of offenders. I also recognise that although we are one Parliament we are two Houses, each of which has rules and regulations. However, in this instance, it is absolutely right that we bring our own procedures into line with the House of Commons. While I believe in the rehabilitation of offenders, we must bear in mind that we are legislators and make laws. When one has broken a law to such an extent that one receives a prison sentence, it is right and proper that for a period of five years one should no longer have the privilege of making laws.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, perhaps I may help us to make progress by simply adding that I very much agree with the noble Baroness who has just spoken. The Government’s draft House of Lords Bill contains a very similar provision to the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, because it mirrors the provisions for MPs, which are set out in Section 1 of the Representation of the People Act 1981. It is appropriate that the terms and conditions for both Houses should be the same.

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[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

If that is the sense of the House, the appropriate procedure, as I have been informed by the Clerk, is to go through from Amendment 1, not moving the various amendments and knocking out each clause as we come to the clause stand part debates, and then deal with Amendment 163, which is an amendment to the Title of the Bill. We will then have achieved what several Members of the House have suggested is the consensus in the appropriate procedural manner.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

With great respect, is it not possible for us to achieve what I think the House as a whole wants to achieve in a more expeditious way that does not simply rely on a self-denying ordinance on the part of the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, or the rather more laborious procedure that has just been suggested? Is it competent for me to move that the House do now proceed straight to consider Amendment 163?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the expression on the Clerk’s face said it all. I am sorry it was not possible for everyone to see it. The appropriate procedure would be to allow the Chairman to proceed on this basis. We will then come to Amendment 163. We do have procedures in the House that we have to follow.

[Lord Higgins]

Is it not the case that a simple way to proceed is not to move Amendments 142 to 117, to deal with Clauses 1, 2 and 3 and then to proceed to Amendment 163? That will take only a moment or two.

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[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords—

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, we have 40 minutes to decide whether we wish to send this to Report stage or not. Some may be happier to do that than others. I stress that the Government are neutral on this Bill, as noble Lords know. The consensus of the House appears to be that this is a housekeeping Bill. It is not the case that nothing else is happening. The Government have put forward a draft Bill that proposes a much more comprehensive scheme of reform. There is now a Joint Committee sitting on that which has held its first two sessions. That includes the proposal for a statutory appointments committee, so things are moving on a much broader and more comprehensive front. I have carefully noted that a number of the hereditaries who have spoken in this debate have declared their passionate enthusiasm for an 80 per cent or 100 per cent elected House. I look forward to them giving enthusiastic support to the Government’s comprehensive scheme when that comes before us.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, before my noble friend Lord Steel, or the House, decides how to proceed, I should say that I take slight issue with my noble friend Lord Cormack referring to this Bill—as did other noble Lords—as a little housekeeping Bill. It does away with the hereditary Peer by-elections. That is not a simple housekeeping matter. Whatever may be noble Lords’ views on it, it is an important issue and, we say, goes to the heart of the undertakings given back in 1999. This is not a small housekeeping Bill—it has important constitutional ramifications—and I hope that it will not be characterised as such.