Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Soley Excerpts(12 years ago)
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Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, like most noble Lords I think that the amendment moved by my noble friend has gone a long way to meet the concerns that were expressed at the earlier stage of this Bill. However, when the noble Lord, Lord Davies, eventually got to the purport of his amendment it, too, had some merit and I hope that my noble friend will feel able to consider it. Taken together, the two amendments represent a measurable improvement to the Bill and I hope that they can be agreed to.
Lord Soley
I, too, recognise and understand that the Minister has tried to meet concerns. In a way, the noble Countess, Lady Mar, put her finger on the point here: throughout most of Clause 1(3), “need” is used, so to introduce “desirability”, as the right reverend Prelate also indicated, makes its meaning unclear. I have one simple question for the Minister. What impact in law does it have to put in a clause which uses “desirability”? I am not sure that in law it would have any meaning.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for his measured and eloquent explanation of the purpose and effect of his amendments in this group. The noble Lord touched on London airports and I am grateful for his wise decision to adhere to the subject of the Bill in his various amendments and resist the temptation to table an amendment about Heathrow airport. However, I have some difficulty with his amendments.
I urge noble Lords to consider the merits of the amendments that the Government have tabled to address the specific concern of the impact of the airport economic regulatory regime on the environment. Amendments 2 and 8 seek to amend the Government’s amendments, which themselves add an environmental supplementary duty for the CAA and the Secretary of State in respect of their airport economic regulatory functions. The Government have broadly proposed a duty such that the CAA and the Secretary of State have regard to,
“the desirability of each holder of a licence … being able to take reasonable measures to reduce, control or mitigate the adverse environmental effects”.
In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Soley, if he reads my initial comments I think it will answer the question that he was posing. If it does not and there is more I can add, I will obviously write to noble Lords but I am confident in my position.
The amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, seek to change the wording slightly so that the CAA and the Secretary of State must have regard to the “need to secure that” a licence holder is,
“able to take reasonable measures to reduce, control or mitigate the adverse environmental effects”.
I am grateful to the noble Lords for tabling these amendments as it provides the opportunity to acknowledge the importance of allowing appropriate investment at airports to mitigate their environmental impacts and those of activities associated with them, where to do so furthers the interests of passengers and freight owners in the provision of airport operation services.
It is crucial that airport operators, whether or not they are subject to economic regulation, should be able to invest in appropriate environmental measures. This is, without doubt, something this Government support. There was a concern frequently raised in the House of Commons, as well as in Grand Committee. However, it is crucial that obligations should not be put on some airports but not on others, depending on their economic regulatory status. Our position is that a licensed airport operator should not be unable to recover through the regulatory settlement costs arising from undertaking environmental investment where an unregulated competitive airport would choose to incur similar costs for similar purposes. After all, the overall aim of economic regulation is often cited as delivering the outcomes that would occur in a competitive market.
Therefore, it is my belief that environmental investment that is in passengers’ interests in the provision of airport operation services should be capable of being included in an airports regulatory settlement. In answer to the detailed question asked by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester, I would prefer to write to him, but I suspect that my answer will hinge on the point that this part of the Bill is concerned with the regulation of airports, not of airlines and aircraft. If noble Lords want to check up, they should carefully read my letter. In answer to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Hudnall, we believe that the government amendments are clear. I hope that noble Lords will agree that Amendment 1 goes to the heart of their concerns and that these further changes are unnecessary. I therefore hope that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, will be willing to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stephen
This amendment is about the very important economic and social impact of air services. It is a very live and current issue. By way of background, I should explain that Nestrans, the North East of Scotland Transport Partnership, and Hitrans, the Highlands and Islands Transport Partnership, met at the end of September with the CAA to discuss these issues. They have been lobbying on this issue along with Northern Ireland. Part of the reason for their lobbying is that air links are absolutely vital to business and economic growth in these regions. It is worth mentioning that a rail journey from here to Inverness takes around eight hours and from Aberdeen to London it is more than seven hours. There are others better qualified than me to explain the journey time from Northern Ireland.
In the discussion at the end of September, these bodies requested that the CAA’s remit be extended from just reviewing consumer interest and the concept of “all passengers”, which gets mentioned a lot by the CAA—all passengers carrying equal value—to one of a more balanced approach that recognises a broader range of issues, including economic impact, social cohesion, and the EU policy of reducing peripherality. Separately—and this is not part of the amendment—they are also anxious to explore what the Department for Transport could do in terms of the use of PSOs and PSO protection for vital regional routes to the London hub, to prevent them being substituted by even more profitable long-haul services. This already happens extensively across Europe, but it is not something that the Department for Transport has gone with, despite its powers. When I was Transport Minister in Scotland, I was well aware of the extensive network of PSOs inside Scotland, but there are none from Scotland to London—and, indeed, introducing such a PSO would no doubt not be without controversy outside Scotland, in other parts of the UK.
That is the background. It is topical and live because, on the same day, the CAA released a letter to the chief executive of the Chamber of Commerce in Aberdeen & Grampian, Bob Collier. It says:
“In March 2011, Flybe complained to the CAA that Gatwick’s charging structure”—
this is not to do with slots; it is to do with the charging structure—
“unreasonably discriminated against operators of small aircraft at the airport in favour of larger aircraft on long-haul routes. We have now issued our provisional decision following our investigation. We have provisionally concluded that Gatwick airport’s objective of increasing the efficient use of its single runway justified the changes to its charging structure. We recognise that some passengers are likely to be harmed by Gatwick’s changes but our provisional conclusion was that any such adverse effects would be balanced by benefits to other passengers. We do not have legal powers to ensure that an airport’s charging structure supports wider goals such as regional policy, which was the main concern of your letter”.
As a consequence of that decision, just a few weeks ago Flybe withdrew the Aberdeen to London Gatwick route. That is on top of the loss of the Inverness to Heathrow route in 2008. These are real pressures with real consequences. The impact on regional economic growth is very important for us as a nation. For example, the oil and gas industry—the energy industry—that is centred on Aberdeen employs 40,000 people in Aberdeen and the north-east of Scotland directly, another 80,000 across Scotland and an estimated 400,000 across the UK, all focused on that energy industry that has its centre, heart and headquarters in Aberdeen. There is, therefore, a real multiplier effect if we can get regional growth happening. The oil and gas business has been one of the very few drivers of economic growth over the past couple of years. I am disappointed that more sectors have not delivered the same success and growth.
The CAA and its “all passengers” remit is the focus of this amendment. It seems to me, although I will be happy to be corrected by the Minister, that no distinction is made between a planeload of tourists going to Spain and a planeload with the same or a slightly smaller number of business people going overseas to win business. There is a reasonable argument that there could and should be such a distinction. An environmental remit is rightly being introduced in the Bill, so why should there not also be an economic and social dimension framed and shaped to reflect government policy? I believe that that remit could be included in the Bill. Let us give the CAA the legal powers to do more to support the UK economy. If that is what Ministers wish and if this amendment also stimulates discussion on the use of PSOs and a more proactive regional policy, perhaps in support of the approach suggested in the recently published report of the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, then in my view so much the better because we have a problem right here, right now and action is needed on this issue now. I beg to move.
Lord Soley
I am very sympathetic to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Stephen. Indeed, I have said on many occasions that the problem we have with the lack of expansion in the south-east is mainly the impact on the regions of the United Kingdom. The three cities most at risk from lack of expansion in the south-east are Belfast, Aberdeen and Inverness. They are the most squeezed. I am sure the Minister will say that this is not the place for an amendment of this nature. He is already nodding. I am not surprised as I think that that is a fair analysis of the structure of the Bill. However, the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, has given us an important opportunity, which we should not duck, to recognise that the regions of the United Kingdom need access to the global market and do not have sufficient access at the moment. I have named three of the cities, but I could go on to mention Bristol, Exeter or Cardiff in the west. A number of them are hit by this problem. He and probably a lot of the country will be relieved that I do not intend to wax lyrical about the need to expand Heathrow or an alternative but, believe me, we need that report from Howard Davies very rapidly. We are in serious trouble.
Lord Soley
I understand that and the Minister is right, but I wonder if he could be absolutely clear. This problem would not be a problem if we had expansion at a hub airport in the south-east, wherever it was.
Earl Attlee
Yes, my Lords, I agree with the noble Lord’s analysis. Heathrow is one of the few airports running at 98% capacity, so we have a specific problem that is probably not copied around Europe in exactly the same way.
It would be for the applicant to seek their own legal advice on the compatibility of any PSO proposals with EU law. If approved, the PSO would permit the ring-fencing of slots at a relevant London airport. Another difficulty is that, by introducing the amendment, the Bill would run counter to the Government’s policy on economic regulation as set out in their Principles for Economic Regulation. These state that the role of economic regulators should be concentrated on protecting the interests of end users and not society as a whole.
Finally, in light of existing traffic levels, there is no reason to believe that the connectivity between Aberdeen and Heathrow is under threat. Additionally, BA CityFlyer operates three daily return flights to London City Airport, and easyJet operates services to Gatwick and Luton airports, although—before the noble Lord, Lord Soley, jumps up—I recognise that people want to go to Heathrow, because it is a hub airport. Recent reports also suggested that Virgin Atlantic was considering starting an Aberdeen-Heathrow service from next March. I hope that my response has given my noble friend the reassurance that he seeks and, if so, that he will consider withdrawing his amendment.
Aviation: Policy
Lord Soley Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My noble friend makes an important point. At a meeting with my noble friend Lord Rotherwick, I agreed to take forward to my right honourable friend Theresa Villiers the importance of maintaining general aviation airfields.
Lord Soley
I can tell the Minister, as someone who lived under the flight path in west London for something like 30 years and represented the area, that in fact opinion there is much more evenly divided than he says. Why? Because Heathrow provides enormous levels of employment; some 170,000 jobs depend on it remaining a premier hub airport. For the sake of the economy and of jobs, will the Government finally make their mind up?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right about the number of jobs involved at Heathrow Airport. It is, of course, a major consideration that in moving one’s hub airport somewhere else you would have to move 176,000 employees—over time, I agree.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Soley Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Rosser
The amendments in this group provide, first, for a new clause that would give the National Audit Office oversight of the Civil Aviation Authority’s accounts. It would also place on the Civil Aviation Authority a general duty of efficiency in the use of its financial resources. It is not clear why the Government have not already included those provisions in the Bill. There are significant changes in the role of the Civil Aviation Authority under the Bill in relation to aviation security functions transferred from the Department for Transport and the economic regulation of airports. The Civil Aviation Authority is likely to become a more influential and important body as a result.
Other regulatory bodies, including economic regulators which are also industry funded, are subject to National Audit Office oversight. They include Ofgem, Ofwat and Ofcom. The Office of Rail Regulation is also subject to National Audit Office oversight, and the ORR is likewise funded from within the industry. As we know, the Civil Aviation Authority is funded from the aviation industry and also receives a limited amount of money from the taxpayer. It is not, however, subject to National Audit Office oversight, although it is generally recognised that the Comptroller and Auditor-General and his staff at the National Audit Office do a highly effective job.
The activities of the regulators to which I have just referred and which are subject to NAO oversight do not involve significant public funds, but they lead to costs being incurred by the providers of essential or strategic services which are likely to be passed to consumers, which justifies NAO involvement. That is particularly the case where the need for active economic regulation has arisen from the process of privatisation, and it is therefore only right that there should likewise be National Audit Office oversight of the Civil Aviation Authority’s accounts, as provided for in the amendment. The House of Commons Transport Select Committee in its report also called on the Government to explain why the Civil Aviation Authority is apparently unique among industry regulators in being outside the remit of the National Audit Office.
The second amendment gives the Civil Aviation Authority a general duty of efficiency in the use of its financial resources. A number of those giving evidence to the House of Commons Transport Select Committee suggested that the CAA did not always operate in the most efficient way possible. For example, in its written evidence, British Airways stated that no measures to encourage efficiency had been included in the Bill and that it considered that the Civil Aviation Authority had scope to make significant improvements in efficiency in certain areas. It argued that the CAA should have a duty to operate efficiently.
In order to keep costs for airlines and passengers, as well as the taxpayer, as low as possible, it is essential that the CAA adopts efficient ways of working and modern technology where appropriate, as higher costs for airlines arising from CAA charges and any inefficient use of its financial resources have the potential to damage major UK airports’ competitiveness with alternative competing hubs. The Transport Select Committee, having taken evidence, recommended that an explicit efficiency duty for the Civil Aviation Authority should be inserted in the Bill. It is clear that it was unimpressed with arguments that other parts in the Bill already provided that explicit efficiency duty for the CAA.
I hope that the Minister will be able to give a sympathetic and helpful response to the amendments and I beg to move Amendment 67.
Lord Soley
I share the concern expressed by my noble friend Lord Rosser about leaving the CAA out of National Audit Office oversight. I have never understood the argument for that. It is very unusual, if not unique, for such an organisation to be left outside the remit of the NAO, and the case for its inclusion is strong. At the very least, I would like the Government to explain why; I do not understand it. The argument about efficiency follows from that, but the one that worries me most is raised by Amendment 67, which I support. I have not yet heard any argument why the CAA should be outside the remit of the NAO, because almost any other body of this type would be included. I should like an explanation for that.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I fully agree with noble Lords on the need for the CAA to be efficient in carrying out its functions. Identical amendments to the ones now tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, were also tabled in the Commons both in Committee and on Report, and were defeated in Divisions.
I shall speak first to Amendment 67 on introducing a role for the National Audit Office. In Commons Committee the Minister announced a strengthening, outside the Bill, of the scrutiny to which the CAA is subject. Having considered this issue further myself, I remain unconvinced that there are compelling reasons to believe that NAO scrutiny of the CAA would deliver a different result from the current and new mechanisms by which the CAA’s functions are already audited and scrutinised. Moreover, the CAA is overwhelmingly funded by the aviation industry. Parliament recognised this in removing the NAO’s role from the CAA and certain other bodies in 1984. The issue was considered by Sir Joseph Pilling, in his 2008 strategic review of the CAA, who concluded that there was no need for NAO involvement. The recommendation was subsequently accepted by Ministers under the previous Government, and I have yet to be convinced that they were wrong.
It is true that other industry-funded regulators come under the scrutiny of the NAO but, unlike the CAA, they are generally either non-ministerial government departments or rely on government funding for a significant proportion of their income. The CAA’s situation is very different from regulators such as the Office of Rail Regulation. Although the ORR is funded by industry licences, it is distinct because of the high level of public funding that the rail industry receives.
I reiterate the strength of the scrutiny mechanisms already in place with the CAA. As was said on Report, the Secretary of State appoints the CAA’s external auditors. She presents the CAA’s accounts to Parliament by placing the annual report statement in the Library of the House of Commons; she is involved in the development of the corporate plan; with the Treasury’s consent, she approves the CAA’s borrowing and sets its required rate on return on capital; and she will continue to approve the remuneration of the chair and non-executive members of the CAA board. In addition, the CAA consults on its charges and fees. Clause 100 makes such consultation an explicit requirement. I therefore currently see no reasons why the NAO should audit the CAA, and ask the noble Lord to withdraw that amendment.
On Amendment 68, regarding efficiency, in practice the CAA is already subject to conditions and obligations that ensure that it is efficient. As announced by the Minister in the Commons, from 2013 onwards the Government will include in their annual accounts direction a requirement for the CAA to include an efficiency statement in its annual report. This would be subject to validation by the CAA’s external auditors, and the Secretary of State for Transport will approve the terms of reference for that work. The efficiency statement is likely to include a summary of value-for-money audits and post-project completion reviews, developments in processes and technology and a report on the remuneration and deployment of staff. The external auditors’ published statement in the annual report would contain a summary of their findings on the efficiency statement in the interests of transparency. Industry representatives on the CAA’s finance advisory group would be given an opportunity to discuss the statement before and after the external auditors had completed their activity. This establishes an annual process of scrutiny, with transparency to the industry and to Parliament, to which the Secretary of State will continue to present the CAA’s accounts.
During the past nine years, the CAA has reduced its workforce by 15%. It employed 1,057 full-time equivalents in 2003 and had reduced that number to 870 in March 2012. The CAA’s strategic plan contains the objective:
“To ensure that the CAA is an efficient and effective organisation which meets Better Regulation principles and gives value for money”.
Clause 1(3) and (4) and Clauses 83 and 84 already build in proportionality safeguards. The CAA is also required to follow the good regulation principles in the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006 and the statutory regulator’s compliance code requires that regulators,
“should be accountable for the efficiency and effectiveness of their activities, while remaining independent in the decisions they take”.
I am aware that this is very important to airlines represented by the British Air Transport Association.
I will continue to reflect on the matter and consider what further reassurances can be given to your Lordships on Report. In light of that, I hope that, at the appropriate point, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, will consider withdrawing his amendment.
Lord Soley
Amendment 67 is still puzzling me, because the Minister’s argument seems to be that, because the airlines fund the CAA so heavily, there is a relatively small contribution from the taxpayer and, for that reason, the NAO need not be involved. I do not have the figures with me, but I do not think that the contribution from the taxpayer is so small as to be really insignificant. If we are saying that a public body such as this can be excluded from the NAO audit simply because it receives a fairly small amount of public money, that logic could be extended to almost any other public body of this type.
To use the Minister’s argument, if in time the railway industry was able to pay rather more for the Office of Rail Regulation, as one would hope, one would no longer need to have that looked at by the National Audit Office. The Minister seems to saying that this is purely a ministerial discretion issue; that is, “We will simply look at it. If the amount of taxpayers’ money is small enough, we won’t bother to put it under the NAO”—I do not use “won’t bother” in a dismissive sense; I mean that the Government will not bother to have the NAO look at it. However, there will come a point when we want the NAO to look it. Can the Government indicate what the trigger would be? Are we talking about £1 million or £5 million? What amount would suddenly trigger the Government saying that the CAA would be put under the National Audit Office? Alternatively, to use my example of the Office of Rail Regulation, if the railway industry suddenly started paying for most of it, would we say, “Well, they’ve reached this point. Therefore, we will no longer put it under the National Audit Office.”? I am not quite clear about what the policy is.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, noble Lords have advanced various arguments as to why the CAA should be audited by the NAO, but the Committee has not convinced me that the CAA would become any more efficient if we went down that route. If noble Lords want to make any progress with their argument, they will have to convince me that it would give a better outcome.
The noble Lord’s implied question was how much of the CAA’s budget comes from public funds. It is only 6%.
Lord Soley
Six per cent of how much? Six per cent of a large amount can be a large amount, too.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am afraid that I will have to write to the noble Lord on the CAA’s budget. As ever, I will give Members of the Committee a comprehensive answer to any of their more technical questions.
Lord Rotherwick
I am rather seduced by the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, which produces a duty to promote innovation. I very much welcome the brief from the director of airspace policy, Mark Swan, on innovation, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, on continuous climb, and so on. Of course, that falls far short of innovation in general and business aviation. You have only to compare the UK to the US to see that we are lagging far behind. We are only a small aviation sector in general and business aviation compared to America and we need a champion to push such things.
For example, we have very few global positioning satellite approaches. They rely on a satellite, not ground-based, last century technical devices that cost a lot to administer. The answer that we are given at the moment is that it is up to the airports to ask for them, but the truth is that it is very expensive to implement. America has a GPS approach for every airport. They are wonderful. You can have dog legs on them, which means that you can fly around communities, lowering the noise, and do all sorts of things. You can have an instrument approach from both ends of your airport, not just the published plate for an NDB on one end.
More than that, the technology is now available to have WAAS approaches—wide area augmentation systems. These are ground-based devices—I believe that there are two or three in America—that up the accuracy of the GPS signal and allow the approach to be made to the accuracy that we are used to with an ILS—an instrument landing system. Again, it does away with expensive ground-based technology. They are very important. Imagine when you fly into a third world country and rely on maintenance by that country of its instrument landing systems, you are sitting in your seat wondering whether that third world country can carry that out. There is no worry if you are using a satellite-based system run by the US.
I am seduced by the duty to promote innovation but at the same time, if this is implemented or written into the Bill, it should come with a caution: “with due regard to the cost to general and business aviation”. The example is the mode S transponder that was brought in recently, for which the lower end of the industry had great difficulty grasping the need. I believe that it was necessary; there were good examples like being able to fly abroad or into certain air spaces. The industry is now beginning to grasp that and take it on. The transponder was needed but was badly sold to the industry, and it cost each and every plane owner quite a lot of money to implement the new equipment. Once again, I thank the noble Lord for his amendment; I think it is a good one.
Lord Soley
I do not wish to delay the Committee for very long because my noble friend Lord Davies and the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, have covered a number of the points that I would otherwise have made.
We sometimes think, as the noble Lord has indicated, that this must always involve a cost of some sort to the airlines or other people on the sites. In fact, in the car industry there are some recent examples that might benefit the aviation industry. For example, we have a lower car tax rate, and indeed lower insurance policies, for cars that are fuel-efficient. That policy was brought in by the previous Government but is fully supported by this one. I am not sure that we could not have a policy, or that the CAA could not at least encourage one, where our modern, quieter and more fuel-efficient aircraft could have a different landing charge. Maybe that can already be done, I am not sure.
There are other examples of that type such as the ground operations that are carried out. A number of airports have now got around to doing things like bringing in more environmentally friendly ground operations generally, particularly regarding vehicles. They were a bit slow on the uptake but now they are doing that quite fast. There ought to be awareness of encouraging that—possibly even financially, as I have indicated. I am not talking about government subsidy per se but a recognition that there may be a benefit to bringing in a more efficient system. The examples that the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, has just given of being able to fly around the community might be enormously beneficial.
We ought to be quite creative in trying to find ways of encouraging the people who are operating from an airport to carry out their operations in a more environmentally friendly way. That is possible and we ought to look creatively not just at methods that might increase costs but at methods that might also decrease them for some of the operators.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, being 110 years old, naturally I am resistant to innovation of all kinds, although I hope not in all branches of aviation. None the less, one needs to take care with imposing duties of this kind upon the CAA in this particular area. For example, if it were to be pressed to incorporate a new kind of material in an engine, perhaps to make it quieter, the cost of certifying a new innovation of that kind can be substantial. My noble friend Lord Rotherwick refers to the desirability of introducing GPS approaches in more airports. One has to remember that GPS systems are outside the control of the CAA, the operators and NATS, and in the past have been subject to interference from hostile agencies, which is much to be regretted. I remember an occasion some years ago when the GPS system in the UK collapsed for a couple of days because there was some technical difficulty about which the CAA and NATS knew nothing.
One needs to take a little care about these things. The ground approach facilities, for example, to which my noble friend referred, are under the maintenance and control of the airport authority and therefore, you may say, more reliable, at least when the shortcomings are more readily known. That said, I do not want to stand in the way of these worthwhile innovations, and the advantages of GPS approaches to which my noble friend referred are very real and important, but one needs to take care. The CAA has taken a careful—if that is the right word—approach to the approval of GPS systems. That was right. It is being slowly convinced of their merit, which is right, too, but it did not jump in their direction as hastily as perhaps some others did. I am not standing in the way of innovation, but I ask the Minister to explain how the costs of all this will be met. Some of them may fall on the operators—to their advantage, no doubt, so that is a good thing—but we should take a little care.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Soley Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, I rise with a little concern because I do not want to give any religious affront to anyone. However, maybe we should put this into the context of the rest of the population. It is concerning that the risk of something occurring that was an affront to one person’s religious rights might be put before the safety of a planeload of people. I remind the Minister that at certain times the rest of the population have to undergo strip searches. I unfortunately have rather a lot of prosthetic material inside me, and I am patted down from head to toe every time I go through passport control. That is an affront to my person, but I accept it as a necessity for the safety of other people.
As the noble Lord, Lord Davies, said, we looked at the Sikh population’s concerns about motorcycles and a solution was found, but motorcycle safety issues relate mainly to the driver of the motorcycle. The safety concerns here are about the whole aircraft and the passengers in it. To repeat myself, I do not wish to cause affront to any religious person, but in this context we all have to undergo certain unpleasant procedures, and unfortunately everyone has to suffer in the same way.
Lord Soley
I will not delay the Committee, and I apologise for missing the opening remarks. Religious groups are very good at co-operating with the authorities. They are just as much at risk as the rest of the population. Indeed, Muslims have often been the victims of bombing attacks. So long as the CAA understands that it needs to work with religious leaders, that is the key to this. If religious leaders agree, we will not have the enormous problems to which the noble Lord refers. They are at least as much, and possibly more, concerned than many other citizens, simply because they are so often victims. We forget that.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I share the views of my noble friend Lord Rotherwick. I wholly sympathise with the objective of the amendment, but it is going a bit too far to write it into the Bill in the form that the noble Lord proposes. I have one question for the Minister: what electronic tests and checks, such as X-rays or ultrasound, are available to examine Sikhs wearing turbans that they do not wish to remove?
Lord Soley
Will the noble Lord clarify a point? Much of the concern is about staff morale. I know that this is not directly connected, but morale was a major factor in what happened with the Immigration Service. If this is not handled carefully, staff morale will go down and they will either work to rule—literally—to ensure that they are not guilty of making any mistakes, or they will just feel demoralised. I know that this is a probing amendment, which I am sure has been taken into account, but I have no doubt in my mind that the security issue is so important that staff morale is equally critical.
Earl Attlee
I remind noble Lords that we are in Committee, so we can speak as many times as we like. The noble Lord is absolutely right that staff morale in any organisation is key. This is of course a leadership issue, particularly for the senior personnel at the CAA. It must be remembered that some staff do not work in fixed locations; some of the staff who ensure that security is carried out properly are fairly mobile. But I accept that morale is an absolutely key issue.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I will also speak to Amendments 57 and 60 in this group. The amendments seek to enhance the principle that the Minister accepted in earlier discussions in Committee of the advantages of the openness and transparency of the CAA, and the fact that because it is in a position to garner critical information the nation would benefit significantly if that information were distributed widely.
The first amendment in the group asks the CAA to publish information comparing greenhouse gas emissions resulting from domestic and EU flights with equivalent journeys by other transport means. The public are becoming increasingly aware of their climate change obligations. As the Minister knows, a whole range of activities by other departments makes it incumbent on them or their agencies accurately to identify to the nation the nature of greenhouse gas emissions. The issue runs across government policy. It is one to which the Government in principle subscribe, and we are proud of the fact that we initiated it in government some years ago.
The most obvious issue for people when it comes to transport modes is price. It may be that the very wealthy never bother about relative prices, but I assure the noble Lord that, particularly in these days of economic stringency, large numbers of our fellow citizens look at price first when they travel. That is why low-cost airlines have done so well in recent years. It is also why long-distance coach travel has expanded. Another increasingly important consideration is the cost of their travel in terms of the increased damage to the environment. This information may not be acted on by huge numbers of people in the first years that it is given, but we know that a substantial proportion of the population is clamouring for the information at present. We also know that as anxieties about climate change increase, the public’s need for information to make them fully aware of greenhouse gas emissions will be of surpassing importance. The first amendment therefore relates to information that is not massively difficult for the Government to collect and distribute. We think that it would be very useful to people when choosing travel modes.
Amendment 57 relates to an issue that we have already debated. There is no doubt that people first choose their flight and airline. However, airports differ substantially in how easy it is to park a car, how passengers are processed, and the facilities available, and these issues count for a great deal more than when mass flying first came along. People then were grateful just for the fact that the aircraft was parked in the right place and that they had arrived at the right airport to catch it. The Government have emphasised that they are eager to see competition between airports. Indeed, we have even discussed whether we will see the Government encouraging competition between terminals, an interesting proposition that we considered during our last session in Committee. This side was not entirely convinced about it. If there is going to be competition between airports, people will need to be able to make accurate judgments about the efficacy of airports and the services they offer.
Lord Soley
Does my noble friend agree that if we have competition for airports, we should also have it for train and coach stations? Should we have the same information made available about them?
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I would be a great enthusiast for that. Whatever anxieties people might have about airports, only a small percentage of the population travels by air on a daily basis, while a large number make journeys by train every day. The only thing I would say to my noble friend is that I am not at liberty to introduce rail into the Bill, so he will have to be patient until we can tackle the rail industry with the same forthright approach that has been brought to aviation.
The last amendment in the group relates to the question of air transport services and their impact on greenhouse gas emissions. We know that airports have made considerable strides in reducing their emissions. There was a time when one could well have formed the impression that the largest aircraft taxiing on a runway was unlikely to create as much emissions as the gear being used to tow it to its bay. Sundry vehicles could be seen sauntering around airports, many of them of somewhat archaic design and certainly capable of spouting noxious fumes. We know that airports have already addressed these issues, so why should we not have the information that allows us to appreciate those achievements and thus encourage them to do even better? I beg to move.
Lord Rotherwick
I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Davies, on his amendments and believe that what he is trying to do is right. I have gone a long way towards trying to produce green energy at home. I came up with a solar farm scheme that was totally supported by my local community—indeed, it participated in it—only to be shunned by Natural England, which suggested that the solar panels could damage the lacewing population by seducing the birds to lay their eggs on them. A month later, another oil tragedy occurred and tens of thousands of animals and birds were killed. I had fallen victim to eco-nimbyism.
On the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, I would be concerned that we might expend too much money and effort recording all those statistics, when our efforts should be directed at resolving the issues. In the excellent briefings that we received in advance of this Bill, we learnt that the CAA has done work on environmental performance—we look forward to the results being published. More effort should surely go into work of that kind, and I hope that amendments such as this will not drain the resources or divert the attention of the CAA away from it.
We heard that it was hoped that continuous-climb operations would reduce fuel burn and emissions by up to 30%. We heard that free routing, which means not having to go from waypoint to waypoint, would reduce journey times, costs and emissions and would promote the flexible use of airspaces, such as military airspace when it is not being used. I hope that the French might manage to do this in their northern sector, because their military airspace there causes huge diversions. While I commend the noble Lord, Lord Davies, on his intentions, I hope that his amendment will not divert us from devoting scarce resources and energies to achieving some difference.
Lord Soley
I go further than the noble Lord in commending the noble Lord, Lord Davies, on the skill with which he presented this amendment. He is right in principle, but the reason for my slightly mischievous intervention is my concern that one always finds provisions such as this being put into aviation Bills and not into train or road transport Bills. The reason for my concern is not that I am for or against the aviation industry, which after many years of kicking and prodding from people such as me has begun to get its act together on presenting its case on climate change and emissions, but that such provisions lead people to believe that you cannot fly but that you can travel as much as you like by road or rail, which is untrue.
I took great issue a few years back with front-page adverts from rail companies about high-speed rail links, saying, “Travel by train and zero emissions”. I thought, “Fantastic! Energy direct from the sun! We have no power stations using coal, oil, gas or nuclear fuel; we just direct it from the sun”. I pick up wonderful magazines, such as that of the RSPB, of which I am very fond, which tell me that we have to stop building airports and flying, and that it is really wicked. I then turn to the back pages and find between 10 and 20 adverts telling me to fly off to exotic places where I can see wonderful birds that are about to be wiped out by climate change. That is the cause of my slightly mischievous intervention on my noble friend’s amendment.
When we talk about building high-speed rail, which I am greatly in favour of, we are talking about producing concrete for a couple of thousand miles of track. To produce one tonne of concrete requires the production of one tonne of CO2—to knock off 10 or 20 minutes of the journey time to Birmingham. We cannot make the case on climate change. We can make it on other grounds and do lots of other things on climate change. I can tell the right reverend Prelate, who made a useful speech, that one piece of good news for him is that many airlines, including BA, Virgin and Air New Zealand, are now flying with a mix of fuels in their tank that includes algae and other environmentally friendly fuels. Algae have a good future. They will never be an entire replacement—they will probably be about 20%—but they are making a difference.
Returning to the amendment, before I get pulled up, the principle is right but my preferred way to address this is that every transport form, road rail or air, ought to be instructed clearly to drive down emissions. That is what matters. I do not object to the amendment in principle, but it has to apply to rail stations and bus stations as well. If I stand in King’s Cross or Euston, I know that it is not oxygen that is being belched out of the train engines or the taxis with their engines running waiting to pick up people; it is CO2. I would prefer that we said that we should drive down emissions across the board. For the past 20 or 30 years, I have never doubted the dangers of climate change—I have written about it from time to time—but we have to be realistic about it. At the moment, the way in which we measure it is not terribly accurate and has a long way to go. All forms of transport—rail, road, air and anything else—should drive down emissions. If we want to put up something to say what we think emissions are in airports, I have no problem with that in principle; I would just extend it to other areas.
Earl Attlee
I will begin with Amendment 57, because it raises different issues from the other two amendments. I am aware, however, that similarly worded amendments were tabled in Committee in the House of Commons and defeated in a Division.
Before turning to the detailed points made by your Lordships, it is important that I emphasise the function of the clause that the amendment would alter. Clause 83 gives the CAA a new and important statutory role in promoting better public information about the aviation industry’s performance. This is intended to improve choice in the market and address what economists call asymmetric information, in that passengers do not always have the information they need to compare the services on offer.
Giving consumers more information on service quality provided by airports and airlines will help to ensure that markets deliver consumer benefits in practice. These issues fall fairly and squarely within the remit that Clause 83 would give to the CAA. Indeed, these may well be issues that the CAA will wish to focus on, though I would not wish to pre-empt its consideration and consultation on the use of these functions.
In our previous sitting, we had a good debate about immigration and baggage handling, but no noble Lord has raised those issues today, so I shall not speak about them unless a noble Lord would like me to.
On Amendments 57 and 60, it is important to emphasise the importance of the clauses that the amendments would alter. I fully agree about the benefits that can be gained by giving passengers clearer and better information about the environmental impact of their travel choices, including the carbon impact. We are committed to ensuring that the transport sector plays a full part in delivering the emissions reductions needed to meet our Climate Change Act targets. The Government have already set stretching, legally binding carbon budgets which will see a 50% reduction in emissions by 2025, compared to 1990 levels, on a path towards an 80% reduction by 2050.
On 1 December, the Government published the Carbon Plan, setting out how we will meet the UK’s legally binding carbon reduction targets over the next two decades and beyond. The Carbon Plan details our ambitious plans to deliver major reductions in carbon emissions from the transport sector and from other sectors over the coming decades. It sets out a radical vision for the almost complete decarbonisation of cars and vans by 2050.
Lord Rosser
Clause 83(1) requires the Civil Aviation Authority to publish,
“such information and advice as it considers appropriate for the purpose of assisting users of air transport services to compare—
(a) air transport services provided to or from a civil airport;
(b) services and facilities provided at a civil airport in the United Kingdom;
(c) services and facilities provided elsewhere in the United Kingdom and used, or likely to be used, in connection with the use of air transport services provided to or from a civil airport”.
This information is to be provided for the benefit of users of air transport services, no doubt in the light of the Civil Aviation Authority’s primary and overriding duty under Clause 1 to carry out its functions,
“in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services”,
including in relation to the cost of current airport operation services.
Taking into account that reference to cost, the amendment adds an additional requirement on the Civil Aviation Authority to publish information and advice to assist users of air transport services to compare the full cost of travel for users of air transport services, including all relevant surcharges such users would be expected to pay. Indeed, one might think it surprising that the specific duty to make such information relating to cost available to users is not already in the Bill and is apparently left entirely to the discretion of the CAA, since the Bill says that the CAA should publish such information and advice as it considers appropriate.
The issue of charges and surcharges when travelling by air is increasingly important to those who are travelling, not least because some of the extra charges or potential extra charges are not always as clear as they might be. What might therefore seem to be a relatively cheap budget airline flight may not necessarily prove to be the case as the actual cost of travel can prove much higher than the basic fare quoted by the airline operator—indeed, in certain circumstances, more than if travelling with a mainstream operator.
Reference was made at Second Reading to a survey published in May in a national newspaper that showed that one well known budget airline’s high-season rate for a 20-kilogramme bag to go in the hold was £70 return, and if you did not book online but turned up at the airport with your bag the fee was £130 one way. The survey of budget airlines’ add-on charges showed that it could cost as much as £110 to change the name on a ticket and £120 because your bag weighed 3 kilogrammes over the limit. It also showed that add-on charges apply to a multitude of things covering bags, seat reservations, credit card fees, name-change fees, flight-change fees and fees for taking on special items such as golf clubs. Indeed, when the survey tested costs for a one-week return flight to Malaga for one person taking a 20-kilogramme bag and paying by credit card, it found add-on costs ranging from just under £35 to £82, depending on the low-cost airline operator.
The credit card surcharges to which I have made reference are a significant money-spinner for the airlines. The Office of Fair Trading has said that UK consumers spent £300 million on payment surcharges to airlines in 2010. Even though there is an attempt to clamp down on excessive card fees from the end of this year, there is evidence that airlines may seek to get around that by referring to the charge in future as an administration fee related to costs associated with the booking system.
The purpose of the amendment is not to pass judgment on the apparent proliferation of add-on charges but simply to say that such information on the level of charges and the many different things that they cover, which many might have thought would have been included in the basic fare or not charged for at all, should be made clear so that those using air transport services are able to make accurate comparisons of the full cost of travel, or potential full cost of travel, and not get caught out by a charge that they were not anticipating and of which they were unaware. Indeed, determining the add-on costs is not a straightforward or easy business for those travelling or thinking of doing so, given that some airlines charge flat-rate fees while others levy charges based on the cost of the flight.
The figures that I have quoted reveal a wide disparity in the level and incidence of such charges, and one would have thought it highly appropriate for the Civil Aviation Authority to have a role in ensuring that such information was readily available in an impartial and objective form as part of its duty under Clause 83 to provide information for the benefit of users of air transport services. That is what the amendment seeks to achieve. I beg to move.
Lord Soley
My Lords, I am delighted to support my noble friend without any hesitation. Let us not beat about the bush: one of the worst offenders in this area is Ryanair which, if it continues for much longer as it has been, will have a big photograph of its founder on the way in to the airport and you will have to pay to bow to it. He is adding costs and charges that are totally unreasonable. He is by far the worst offender but there are others too. The time is long overdue when all the costs of a flight should be properly advertised. It is very important. We are expecting people at the moment to book tickets when they do not really know what the full cost is and, as my noble friend has indicated, when they get to the airport they suddenly discover that the cost is infinitely more than they thought it would be, because of extra bags and taking special items on board. A short while ago we had a dreadful incident with regard to wheelchairs. All this is utterly appalling and utterly wrong.
I do not think we should mess about on these issues. All airlines should be made to set out all the charges that are imposed on customers so that they know in advance what they are going to have to pay for their tickets. My noble friend’s amendment is wholly good. If the Minister cannot accept it as it is, I hope that he can at least ensure that it goes into the Bill in some form. These practices need to be stopped.
Lord Rotherwick
I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, on his amendment. We all have friends who have encountered this problem. When they think they have secured low-cost tickets, they suddenly come across these hideous charges. My wife uses low-cost airlines and constantly comes across these problems. The matter needs to be addressed.
Lord Soley
I am slightly worried about the direction of travel of the Minister’s comments. It is one thing to say that they must publish information under Article 23; it is another to say that they are right up front so that a passenger knows. I do not believe that Ryanair has been giving true and full information to people in a way that enables them to assess the full cost, rather than flicking over it in the small print—although I accept that the print will not necessarily be that small. I would be happier if there were some proactive way to intervene—for the CAA, or whoever, to look at it and say, “This is utterly unacceptable and has to stop”. As far as I know—I have not tried it myself recently but this is what I have been told by passengers recently—this is still happening with Ryanair.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure that many noble Lords share the noble Lord’s view of that airline but, on the issue of publication, it is up to the CAA to determine what to publish, taking into consideration the results of the consultation.
On the second issue of payment surcharges, like the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, I share consumers’ concerns about the high level of payment surcharges applied by some companies and that often people are not aware of the level of these charges until almost at the end of the booking process. That makes it difficult to compare prices and shop around for a good deal. It is not right that a business should try to hide the true cost of its services by implying that its prices are made up of elements beyond its control when they are not.
Your Lordships will be aware that consumers are already protected against misleading pricing under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations. Additionally, on 23 December 2011 the Government announced our intention to consult on implementing the payment surcharges provision of the consumer rights directive ahead of the June 2014 deadline. We intend to issue a consultation in the summer to seek views on the timing of implementation and other details on how the provision should be applied. Responses to the consultation will inform our decision on timing and our guidance to businesses.
I hope that it is clear from what I have said that the intent of the amendment is already implicit in the primary duty and that effective mechanisms are already in place to secure the result intended. Given that, I hope that at the appropriate time the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I reiterate to the Committee that the Government accept that there is a problem. We are determined to deal with it but we need to do so in the right way. The noble Lord asked me about what I said about Article 23. Perhaps it is worth carefully going over it because it was carefully drafted. The CAA has been working with airlines to ensure compliance with this requirement and considers that the airlines that it worked with are now compliant with Article 23. That implies that the airlines that it did not work with are not compliant.
Lord Soley
That is the point: some of them are not. I could name Ryanair, but there are others too. Some of this is down to the psychological trick where, as you go through your booking form, usually on a computer, you tick the “something extra”. Each one on its own seems small; you get to the position where you enter your card number and book the flight; you say, “All right, I will go ahead”; and then you add it all up afterwards and it is painful. My noble friend Lord Rosser is right: we need to get much tougher on this.
I have not looked at Article 23. I will do so and I am grateful to the Minister for drawing it to our attention, but I have a strong feeling that unless there is a tough ruling on this we will not get what we want, or not for a very long time.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord’s analysis. However, it is open to and up to the CAA to determine how it will publicise the situation. It may choose to report on the headline price of a ticket offered by an airline and then say, “But just before you click, you will find out that it is three times more expensive”. It is a matter for the CAA to say how it is going to do this.
It may be helpful if I say what the CAA is already doing in this area. The CAA has researched the fees and charges of the top 24 airlines operating from the UK, including the cost of paying by credit card, booking an assigned seat and taking various weights of hold luggage, and has published a comparison table. This table provides consumers shopping around with the ability to see what charges they might face, and the ability to use that information to help them decide which airline to travel with, based on their individual needs. The CAA has also recently updated all the information and advice available to passengers through its website, in order to give pre-shopping advice as well as advice on resolving travel problems.
I am aware that I myself have never thought of looking at the CAA’s website when considering purchasing an airline ticket. Perhaps there is a lack of knowledge among consumers that this information is available.
Lord Soley
I do not think that the Minister is alone in not looking at the CAA website before booking his ticket; that is fairly common for most people. It is clear that the CAA is hearing this debate now. Could we ask it, through the Minister, to report to him on what it is doing so that he can let the Committee know? It is the sleight of hand by some of these airlines that needs to be addressed. As a Member of this House, I would like a very clear response from the CAA about what it is going to do because the situation is unsatisfactory.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am fairly confident that the CAA will be listening very carefully to what the Committee has to say.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Soley Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Rosser
My Lords, perhaps I may take one of the amendments in the group to make my point. Government Amendment 30 deletes paragraph (c) in Clause 26, which says that the Competition Commission may allow an appeal under Section 24 or 25 only to the extent that it is satisfied that the decision appealed against was wrong on one or more of the following grounds, one of which is that the decision was based on the wrong exercise of a discretion. That wording has now been replaced in government Amendment 30 with the wording,
“that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”.
I endeavoured to listen carefully to what the Minister had to say about this group of amendments and, if he did cover my point, I would be grateful if he could repeat his explanation. He seemed to say that this was all about clarifying the current drafting as opposed to explaining what the difference was between the wording in the Bill and what is being proposed, bearing in mind that it is not the same wording and therefore presumably does not mean exactly the same.
It would be helpful if the Minister could explain what this change in wording means. I refer to government Amendment 30 to paragraph (c) in Clause 26. Does the change from “wrong exercise” mean that although a decision was made incorrectly, the process was fine and the options to choose from were correct, the proposed wording,
“an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”,
is meant to imply that the exercise itself was flawed, had the wrong information to hand, was conducted incorrectly and options were considered that should not have been? It is important that we do not just get told, “We are seeking to clarify the current drafting”, but that we have a full explanation as to what the current wording in Clause 26 means—this relates to,
“that the decision was based on the wrong exercise of a discretion”,
and how that differs in meaning from the wording with which Amendment 21 replaces it,
“that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”.
I hope that the Minister can clarify the position.
Lord Soley
Before the Minister replies, I was looking at this with some interest. I cannot help feeling that the issue might be one of parliamentary drafting. I would like to know whether the CAA, the airlines or the Competition Commission asked for the wording to be changed. My noble friend Lord Rosser has already pointed out that there is a change of wording, with “the wrong exercise”, but it is also odd that the original wording from Schedule 1 is in the present tense, whereas the wording in the amendment is in the past tense. I cannot help feeling that the parliamentary draftsman who did it first was found to have got something slightly wrong; I am not sure what. It is puzzling why that wording has changed from the present to the past tense, unless it is just for a legal reason. If there is another reason, I would like to see where the amendment came from and why.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I am full of admiration for the textual criticism of the noble Lords opposite. I have a rather simpler question for my noble friend. As I listen to him, and I try to do so carefully, the main purpose of this large group of amendments is to ensure that the same rules apply to the Competition Commission and the Competition Appeal Tribunal. How is it that anybody ever thought that the rules should be different? Why is it only at this stage that we are making them all the same? Was there some purpose to the way in which the Bill was originally drafted? I would be most grateful for an explanation. I am sure that there is a perfectly good reason, but I do not know what it is.
Lord Soley
There is a reason I am picking up on this, of course. I am a member of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. We are getting increasingly worried about the quality of drafting of government Bills. It looks like a case where the drafting has changed for some reason. I do not want to be critical of the parliamentary draftsman concerned without knowing the facts but, if we flag it up as rather odd, there might be an explanation. I do not know what it is, and I would quite like to.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the Committee will recognise that parliamentary draftsmen work in peculiar ways. It may be helpful if I read out what I said on this particular amendment again. Amendment 30 is to one of the grounds on which the CC may allow an appeal under Clause 24 or Clause 25, which relate to appeals against conditions of new licences and modifications of licence conditions. The amendment would change the grounds on which the CC may allow an appeal from,
“that the decision was based on the wrong exercise of a discretion”,
to,
“that an error was made in the exercise of a discretion”.
The view was taken that the drafting in Clause 26(c) could have been better expressed. There was no external request to change this wording, but the Committee will understand that officials go over the drafting again. It seems to me that it is better drafting. Originally, the grounds of appeal were based on statutory precedent, based on retrospective appeals to the CC and the CAT. The wording varied slightly. That is how the inconsistency first arose.
Lord Soley
Perhaps I may come back briefly. In a way the Minister has answered the question. The Delegated Powers Committee—not just the parliamentary draftsmen—worries about the quantity of legislation and the way in which it is often hastily drawn up. We end up making changes of this type which do not seem to come anywhere other than in Bills that are brought out by the Government in a state of incomplete readiness. We end up having an awful lot of amendments on the Floor of the House. This has happened under successive Governments and therefore successive parliamentary draftsmen. I suspect that the fault lies both in the way we manage government and in the expectations we place on parliamentary draftsmen. It is an indication of how things can go wrong. My guess—it is only a guess; I am not a lawyer—is that the interpretation by a court of the original wording in the Bill would have been different from the interpretation by a court of the amendment tabled by the Government. On that basis I understand it but I am glad that the Minister clarified it.
Lord Bradshaw
I ask my noble friend to consider very carefully the arrangements now in place in the bus and rail industries for taking care of passengers. These have been built up over a long period, although they are certainly not completely fair. Statistics on performance are very regularly published but this issue goes very much wider than performance; it relates to things such as looking after people who miss their connections or trains. When I was chairman of the bus users’ council, I was concerned about people who were left in draughty old bus stations because the last bus did not run, or something of the sort. These are all people who need protection. I am slightly surprised, but I am perhaps better advised, by what the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has said: people at airports should at least be protected as well as passengers who use buses or trains.
Lord Soley
I am broadly sympathetic to this group of amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Davies, and to the recommendations of the Transport Select Committee. It is always dangerous to put too much in a Bill, but on this we need to start with the recognition that when a person comes into an airport, particularly to a major airport such as Heathrow, it is their first impression of the United Kingdom. If they are coming here from any of the emerging countries—especially China, India or Brazil—the image for someone who is thinking of setting up a business and investing here is not good. It has got a lot better since Terminal 5 opened at Heathrow. I readily accept that there is a much greater desire to do things about this. I also accept that, as my noble friend Lord Davies has pointed out, a lot of the recent problems were not caused by things that the Bill will cover; they were caused by immigration control and so on. The image of vast queues moving very slowly—which is what were seen, even if that issue will not be covered by these amendments—is very bad for Britain. It is less true for other airports but it is still true; so we need to get our act together and do rather better on this.
I was trying to envisage someone who had just emerged from one of these long queues taking part in one of these surveys, whether for immigration purposes or anything else. They might give some short, sharp answers to the questions. We have to do better. That is the thrust of these amendments and of what the Transport Select Committee was saying. I urge the Minister to look at this matter sympathetically and see whether he can come up with some way of constantly emphasising the importance of the passenger having a good experience. It does not do our business or general tourist travel any good at all to have the images we have had.
I dread to think of what will happen if we have problems of runway availability at Heathrow during the Olympics. You can see what will happen if there is a severe weather event that causes a back-up because there is no alternative runway space. You then have the inevitable position of all the other problems at the airport, and you will have some very disappointed people coming into Britain. This is rather important and the airports and the Government need to look at this whole area.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I am sure that most of us travelling through airports have been approached at one time or another by the person with the dreaded clipboard. No doubt all noble Lords here were free and giving of their time and answers to help these people establish their true feelings.
Whether the particular methodology contained in these amendments is right, I am not sure. No one wants to add to the difficulties of getting a licence or to the bureaucracy involved. Nevertheless, underneath all that, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is making a fundamental point that we all share. There have been a number of cases in recent years where the whole image of this country and the welfare of many thousands of passengers have undoubtedly been put to the test. Unfortunately, on some occasions, the relevant airports have failed that test. One constantly hears that there is an absence of information being fed back to the passenger.
Of course, these emergencies obviously come out of the blue in many cases. Sometimes the airports are not properly prepared, they do not have enough staff or facilities and one understands that this is not easy to cure. Nevertheless, it should be at the core of what we are trying to do. We are trying to make aviation more efficient but, in parallel with that, we have to make it a more pleasurable experience.
In so many walks of life—we are talking mostly about finance—consumer welfare and consumer benefits are put at the core of many of the things that we do in this country. That is right and there is therefore some merit in these amendments. Whether this methodology is the right one is not necessarily the issue today. The point is that there is a fundamental issue, and I hope that the Minister will refer to it in his reply. Should there be a broadly understood standard that would apply to all airport operators in the event that an emergency will arise, as it inevitably will; and how are people to be treated? Are we to continue to see our television screens covered with images of passengers complaining about their treatment, delays and lack of information?
In order to raise standards, which is our general objective, there should surely be some methodology. I have an open mind as to whether or not it should be this precise mechanism but I hope the Minister will at least acknowledge that this must be at the core of what we do.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I shall not detain your Lordships for more than a moment. I very much support what my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding has been saying on this matter. There is a serious problem here. As my noble friend explained, it is a very unlikely circumstance but, if it did happen, it could be catastrophic, and I do not think that the Bill can be allowed to proceed to the statute book with this difficulty identified.
Lord Soley
I shall be similarly brief and just wish to add to what the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said. The figure involved for investment at Heathrow alone is £100 million a month. Putting that into context, you raise that on the bond market and you secure it against the airport in just the same way as someone buying a house secures a mortgage against the house. If there were appeals of the type indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, they could have a very disruptive effect on the financial markets. I think that there is a question about whether the bankers entirely agree with BAA about the risk involved but the point is that, if the risk is there and we can deal with it fairly easily, then frankly we should. If there were an appeal, it would be a severe and difficult embarrassment, particularly if the fight became bitter. The risk of a challenge to £100 million a month investment at our major airport is not funny. I suspect that the CAA would not allow an appeal but, again, this is a case of being sure that we have the safeguards in place, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, indicated, and I certainly support his amendment.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I, too, support the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and others on this amendment. An appeal may be very unlikely but, as other noble Lords have said, the consequences would be bad. I cannot see how anyone appealing under Clauses 24 and 25 would find it relevant to question the financing of BAA—or any other operator, for that matter. That would seem to have nothing to do with any appeal but one occasionally gets vexatious appeals. Given the size of the sums and the disaster that would ensue if investments did not go ahead because the bankers became uncertain about an appeal, this would seem to be an extremely sensible set of amendments. I, too, shall be interested to hear what the Minister has to say in response.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I have listened very carefully to the points that have been raised. As my noble friend Lord Jenkin pointed out, I have met BAA to discuss this issue in some detail, and since that meeting I have considered its concerns.
First, I assure the Committee that the Government remain of the opinion that there are good reasons to include derogations to financial resilience licence conditions where these would otherwise cut across existing financing arrangements. The CAA, which will be issuing the first airport licences, has also confirmed that it supports the broad principle that ring-fencing licence conditions, which does not cut across existing financial arrangements, could bring benefits to users.
The practical effect of the amendment would appear to shut out an airline’s right of appeal in respect of an entire licence condition, even if only a small part of it contained an exception relating to financial arrangements. Therefore, the scope of the amendment appears to be wider than the reason advanced for its inclusion. None the less, it is a perfectly good amendment for us to debate. The Government remain of the opinion—
Lord Soley
The point that the noble Earl makes is a fair one but it is perfectly possible, with the government draftsmen, to make a more refined and specific amendment, if necessary.
Earl Attlee
I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Soley. It is my duty to point out a drafting error in case my noble friend wants to run the amendment on Report. If I had not identified the problem in Committee and suddenly jumped up on Report and said, “Actually, the amendment is defective”, I think I would be a little unpopular.
The Government remain of the opinion that the broad rights of appeal provide an effective means of improving the accountability of key regulatory decisions. The process enables the interests of both airport operators and materially affected airlines to be taken into account. We therefore believe it is correct that this right of appeal should extend to licence conditions that relate to financial arrangements. An airline seeking to appeal a financial resilience condition, or the absence of such a condition in the first licence granted to an operator, will need to satisfy the Competition Commission that it is, in this context, a person whose interests are “materially affected” by the decision.
Any dispute over whether a derogation would cause a breach of existing financial arrangements would be most likely to arise from legal questions about the true construction of the loan agreement and/or the licence condition. These could ultimately be resolved through judicial review and, in the mean time, an airport operator could seek an injunction to preserve the status quo. Further comfort may be drawn from the fact that, subject to a government amendment that has been tabled being agreed, the Competition Commission, in deciding an appeal, will be obliged to have regard to the duties imposed on the CAA. Markets should therefore be reassured that the risk of existing creditor protection in an airport operator’s funding structure being unintentionally removed and triggering an event of default is extremely small.
We acknowledge that there is a possibility that the uncertainty created by an airline making an appeal to the Competition Commission on a licence condition relating to financial arrangements could affect an airport operator’s ability to access capital markets to raise finance while the appeal is being considered. However, as the timing of an application for leave to appeal is predictable, we consider that this is something an airport operator could successfully manage by pre-funding its financing requirements. We remain of the opinion that the right of appeal for airlines would not have significant negative consequences for an airport operator’s ability to raise debt in the capital markets.
Lord Soley
I am grateful but the Minister seems to be heading in the direction of neither moving on this nor looking at it again. He has described an appeal process that could take longer than six months. So it is a six-month possibility. He said earlier that the amendment put down by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, was too extensive. I understand that but I do not believe it is beyond the wit of the Government to come back with an amendment that is more specific. It should be possible and I do not see why it cannot be considered.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, noble Lords suggested that the appeal process would take six months. I am suggesting that the Competition Commission will very quickly be able to determine whether the appeal is frivolous, vexatious or unlikely to succeed. I do not believe the CAA would grant a derogation unless it was absolutely certain that it would pass scrutiny from the Competition Commission. There is also the point that the licence condition does not come into effect until the appeal is heard.
I reiterate that I am not taking this away and I am not reflecting on it. I will, however, discuss the matter in detail with my right honourable friend.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
When my noble friend started his reply by talking about the amendment being too extensive, I thought he was going to move on to say that a redrafted one that was not quite so widely drawn might meet with his approval. As my noble friend proceeded, however, that possibility seemed to disappear over the horizon until we got to the end when he said that he will continue to discuss this with his right honourable friend the Minister of State at the Department for Transport. I hope that will be a serious reconsideration. This is not a frivolous point and it is not covered by saying that the Competition Commission could dismiss appeals as being frivolous or pointless.
Of course, the financial markets would be totally spooked by the threat of an interruption which, as the noble Lord, Lord Soley, said, might last for more than six months. They would not be prepared to go on lending and the whole investment programme would be threatened. This could not be in the interest of passengers. I understand that my noble friend has to be cautious about what he says, but when he said at the end that he would not reconsider it but would discuss it with the Minister of State, I paid more attention to the second point than the first. Perhaps we are making progress. If it is a question of drafting something that removes the risk only so far as is necessary, I am sure that the lawyers working for BAA—perhaps with the department lawyers or parliamentary counsel—would be able to find a form of words. In the mean time, Ministers must be willing to recognise that this problem has to be dealt with and cannot be put off.
Lord Soley
Another way of approaching it is to allow the CAA to take into account the risk to investment before coming forward with any appeal. That is another way of coming at the same problem.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Soley Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Bradshaw
In moving Amendment 1, I shall speak also to Amendment 10. These amendments relate to the surface access to the airports, which is of course very important, not just for people who fly but for people who work there and residents. So I am not entering a plea especially for airline passengers but for everybody who uses those modes of access in getting there.
Some figures published this morning show that pollution arising from aeroplanes is reducing quite sharply as bigger and more efficient aeroplanes take over. That brings into focus the need to tackle the higher level of both noise and atmospheric pollution that comes from surface access to airports. I want to stress the point that we must do something about surface access. I know that there are many ideas about it—it is probably becoming more important than the aircraft themselves.
I do not intend to turn this debate into an argument about the third runway in Heathrow, but I want to draw attention to the large amount of spare runway capacity that exists or is planned to exist at Gatwick, Stansted, Birmingham and Luton airports and in other regions of the country. The four airports that I mentioned particularly affect the south-east. If it were exploited, that would reduce the clamour about demand at Heathrow, which is being fed mainly by BA and BAA which have substantial financial interests in it. I am particularly anxious about the damaging and expensive campaign that they are running, which suggests that London is not open for business. I think that they are trying to hijack any debate and the forthcoming White Paper to try to concentrate on what they see as the problem—how they can get more planes at Heathrow, which in turn will give them more income.
Regional airports could well take up the challenge as Gatwick has done since it was divested from BAA. Noble Lords will probably be aware that Gatwick now has two direct flights to China, one to South Korea, one to Nigeria and one to Hong Kong. That is only the beginning to building up an international business, and I believe—and I have been to several airports—that Birmingham, with all the committed money being spent there, will offer passengers a wide range of possibilities when they travel. For example, most airport users or people who use the lines, cite the fact that Stansted Express is not a very good, efficient or comfortable way in which to get to London. In fact, if you consider the Lee valley, the whole service needs revision. It needs money spent on the infrastructure, and it is one of the areas that I hope the Government may have something to say about in the high-level output statement for the railways which I believe they are due to publish next month.
The impact of HS2—if it is built—on Birmingham airport would be huge and would bring it within 38 minutes of London, which is equivalent to what Gatwick is now and what Heathrow is for most people. The real point that has been made to me, particularly by people at Gatwick, is that passengers from airports do not mix well with passengers who are commuting on a regular basis. For example, if trains emanating from Brighton arrive at Gatwick full of commuters and a lot of Americans with heavy luggage who have never been here before are on the platform, they cannot be accommodated comfortably on the service that is provided. That is why I was pleased to see the debate yesterday in the House of Commons on this matter. It was raised by Henry Smith, the MP for Crawley, who said that it is very necessary that the whole question of access to airports is brought into focus. It is definitely on the radar of the department. In this debate, reference was made to the fact that the new Southern franchise will be let, and it will be up to the franchisees what they want to do. I think they might need a little guidance. It is not just the train services; it is the trains themselves because many of the trains in use on the railway are pretty unsuitable for people with heavy luggage.
If I am correct, it is only the regulated airports that need any requirement for improvements to be included in the regulations. This is so that they can be included within their regulatory asset base. I do not want any situation to arise in a regulated airport where any airline might legally escape paying its share of any improvements that are made to surface access. I hope the Minister can give me an assurance that once this change is made everything will go into the RAB.
Licensed airports, which are a different lot, can do whatever they consider to be commercially attractive. In many cases, this will mean help with investments by other transport providers to produce mutually beneficial schemes and from local authorities keen to promote regional airports. These airports do not need the regulator to intervene, as I see it, so the intervention may come from government or from local authorities which are keen to invest in improvements. Birmingham airport stressed to me that it feels that if the huge spare capacity it has is used, it would bring a lot of development with it. In that case, you have an airport that is willing to accommodate any improvement.
I hope the Minister can give me the assurances that I seek and will endorse the fact that the improvement of surface access is extremely important and is becoming more so as time goes on. I beg to move.
Lord Soley
The noble Lord might be surprised that I am not entirely unsympathetic to what he is trying to achieve but I do not think that he is trying to achieve it in the best way. I will not focus on his comments about Gatwick managing to be a hub or otherwise, although I think that if you told the people around Gatwick that we were to move Heathrow’s operation there, they might be a little less enthusiastic than the airport owners.
I think the noble Lord is right that there is a problem about surface access to airports generally. However, it is not my view that the CAA is the best organisation to do this—the Minister will tell us what he thinks. This flags up the problem which a number of us have referred to over many years: we lack an effective regional government structure in Britain that could provide the surface transport necessary around airports, as well as some of the other regional infrastructure that we need. The noble Lord is right that we end up doing things in a hit-and-miss way, with a bit here and a bit there, and then join it up afterwards. Heathrow Express came in but was that really the best idea when we had Crossrail coming? There are a lot of oddities in there. In my judgment, and I will be interested to hear what the Minister says on this, if we asked the CAA to suddenly become the organisation that has to comment on and recommend surface infrastructure we, will need a much larger organisation than the current CAA.
Lord Berkeley
We have heard two interesting speeches. I have a lot of sympathy with the amendment but what concerns me is starting off on the basis that this would add to the regulatory duties in Clause 1. Regulatory duties are terribly important issues for a regulator to take into account. I have had certain experiences with the Office of Rail Regulation over the years. Reminding it of its duties can be a good way of making sure that it remembers and acts on them.
Of course, Clause 1(2) says that the CAA must carry out its functions,
“in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services”.
I am not clear on what we are talking about when it comes to competition. This is something that will recur in later amendments. Is it competition between those airports included in the scheme in the south-east, or all airports, or competition for the provision of services within an airport? If it is the latter, this seems a big sledgehammer to crack a nut. When the Minister replies, maybe he can put me right on that.
There is also the issue that my noble friend Lord Soley raised on surface access and whether the CAA is the best organisation to do this. He might be right or wrong but there is a similar concern with ports and airports: who pays for the infrastructure and who decides? I thought that the general policy of successive Governments was that the private-sector operator of an airport or port invested within the boundary of the facility and then expected the state, local or regional authorities, or someone, to contribute to the cost of access, except when there was a Section 106-type agreement. We certainly got into a knot in the ports sector. Sometimes there was state aid available for some things and sometimes there was not.
We got into a right old knot with Heathrow over the years. BAA contributed to the cost of building the Heathrow Express line and operating the trains. It did not seem to want the Heathrow Express trains to go down the Crossrail tunnel, which most people would have thought would have made a very good piece of public transport planning, so it will not go down it. I was told by some people from BAA yesterday that the reason for that—they confirmed this—was that the most important customers who use the Heathrow Express, particularly in first class, do not like going into tunnels because their BlackBerry does not work. They would rather go from Paddington to Canary Wharf in a taxi, where they can still play with their BlackBerry. Frankly, that is a farcical argument. It was suggested that if there was a first-class carriage in Crossrail and it went straight to Heathrow, people might use it. This attitude will adversely affect the future public transport and surface access into Heathrow. I hope it will change its attitude; it has certainly said that it will look at the situation.
Lord Rosser
This amendment and Amendment 13 relate to the Civil Aviation Authority’s general duty and the Secretary of State’s general duty, as set out in Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill. I will direct my comments to the Civil Aviation Authority’s general duty though the argument is the same in respect of the Secretary of State’s general duty.
Under Clause 1(1), the CAA must carry out its functions under Chapter 1 of the Bill,
“in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services regarding the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services”.
Subsection (2) goes on to say that:
“The CAA must do so, where appropriate, by carrying out the functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services”.
This amendment adds to the end of that,
“but only where this will not conflict with its ability to carry out its functions in a manner set out in subsection (1)”.
In the absence of any definition of what “where appropriate” in subsection (2) is intended to mean or how it is to be interpreted in the context of the Bill, there appears to be an assumption in subsection (2) that promoting competition in the provision of airport operation services will further the interests of users of air transport services. Promoting competition does not necessarily further the interests of users of air transport services regarding range, availability, continuity, cost and quality because it can lead to a reduction in range, availability, continuity, cost and quality in a bid to either reduce costs or sustain profit margins, or achieve both objectives.
The amendment seeks to ensure that the requirement to promote competition,
“by carrying out the functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services”,
does not apply where the Civil Aviation Authority considers that to do so would conflict with its primary responsibility of furthering,
“the interests of users of air transport services”.
It would surely be unacceptable for the CAA to have to carry out its functions in a manner that it considers would promote competition when to do so would conflict with what is presumably its key responsibility to further the interests of air transport services, as set out in subsection (1), rather than the interests of the providers of airport operation services. That would defeat what appears to be a declared objective in the Bill for the Civil Aviation Authority as set out in subsection (1).
I hope the Minister will accept the amendment. However, if he does not intend to do so, I hope that he will indicate the current wording in the Bill which will prevent the CAA having to carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will promote competition in the provision of airport operation services if it felt that to do so would conflict with its duty to carry out its function in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services. The answer may be that the Government simply believe that promoting competition cannot not be in the interests of users of air transport services, which would be a remarkable view. Alternatively, it may be that the Minister will say that the words “where appropriate” in subsection (2) give the Civil Aviation Authority the power to decide that it will not promote competition in the provision of airport operation services because to do so would conflict with its duty under subsection (1) to carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will further the interests of air transport services. If that is the case, the Minister should give a detailed explanation of what the words “where appropriate” mean in the context of the provisions of subsections (1) and (2) and how they should be interpreted and applied by the Civil Aviation Authority. I beg to move.
Lord Soley
I have sympathy with my noble friend. However, I do not have any answers to the problem. It is very difficult. A clause such as Clause 1 imposes certain duties on an organisation—in this case the CAA—which is a normal format in Bills that become law. However, what troubles me about such clauses—and it is not only in this one, although it happens here too—is that there is a lack of clarity, as my noble friend has pinpointed.
Subsection (3)(b) has the catch-all phrase that,
“the need to secure that all reasonable demands for airport operation services are met”.
There is one of these provisions in almost all the Bills of this type that I know. It is put in in case we have forgotten something that the CAA may want or ought to do. It covers just about everything from whether the coffee machine works to whether you have good services in other more fundamental ways.
I wonder at times whether we are being clear with the operator. Presumably the CAA is happy with the clause—I assume that it is; I have not heard anything to the contrary—but I wonder about the clarity of its operation if this becomes law, as it almost certainly will. Does the CAA have enough clarity to know what its duties are if someone challenges it? A catch-all phrase such as that in subsection (3)(b)—that the CAA has to meet the reasonable demands for airport operation services—means that it can say in certain circumstances that it does not think that a particular demand is reasonable. It could rely on the phrase if it received a legal challenge from someone or some organisation.
It is a general point but sometimes we are casual with our legislation and put in catch-all clauses and subsections. We are saying to the operator that it can do what it likes within certain limits. It may be challenged in law, although that is unlikely, and this clause is there in case it is needed. It is a catch-all clause and my noble friend is right to raise this matter as a lack-of-clarity issue.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I am in entire agreement with what my noble friend said. The impression that might be given is that the unions involved in aviation and aviation interests are unmindful of the environmental situation. A great deal of work has been done on environmental progress, as I well know, having served as president of BALPA for 29 years. I recall meetings of BALPA over the years, and this issue predominates in its influence on events. I know that a great deal of work has been done by aircraft manufacturers, who are not unmindful of their ill effects on the environment and take them into account. The next generation of aircraft will improve the effects of aviation on the environment in future—and so it will go on. This ought to be taken into account in the amendments being moved.
It is right that some emphasis should be given to the work being done on the environment and that it should be included in the legislation. What I can say without any possibility of contradiction is that the use of the word “environment” is not simply a byplay on words but the sign of a real concern, which has been expressed by British Airways, in particular, but also by other aviation interests. It would not be sensible for any aviation interest, whether the companies concerned or the trade unions, to suggest that they are not mindful of the ill effects of aviation on the environment. They are, and it figures very largely in what they have to say on this issue.
Lord Soley
I am also sympathetic to these amendments. If I was asked to choose one particular amendment, it would be Amendment 6, because it links up the key organisations, the National Air Traffic Services, the Committee on Climate Change and the department. It is better if we pinpoint what we want the CAA to do and whom it should work with on this, so that we get an overall approach. I support what my noble friends Lady Worthington and Lord Clinton-Davis said; he has great and long experience in this regard.
The reality is that if you had asked the aviation industry 10 or 15 years ago, it would not have taken climate change anywhere near as seriously as it should have done. But it has woken up, and woken up fast. Because the aerospace industry is such an important scientific and technological driver, it has begun to leap ahead. So you now find, as the Minister will know from our several conversations when I have provided him with information on alternative fuels, most notably algae, that it and other drop-in fuels are actually good for the environment. There is real movement there. The new design of aircraft has made them much quieter and more powerful, so you get the A380, which requires a runway that is half the length of that required by the old 747, even though it was much smaller. It is quieter because it is quieter anyway and its fuel efficiency is particularly good. The effect of the emphasis by the aviation industry on improving has been great, and the airport operators have emphasised it too. I think I mentioned at Second Reading that when I spoke at the Airport Operators Association conference in about 2004, very few of them saw trying to reduce emissions from ground operations as a high priority. They now do, and they give it enormous importance. Look at what has been done at Heathrow with electric vehicles. They are all making efforts. However, I always put a cautionary note here because when we talk about electric propulsion, whether for trains, cars or any other operations, we have to remember that electricity in this country is predominantly produced from coal, oil and gas with some nuclear, so it is not as clean as we sometimes like to pretend it is.
Nor are we as good on noise. At Second Reading I mentioned the noise of the trains that went through my former constituency at 100 miles an hour, barely 50 or 100 feet from people’s front and back doors. That went on throughout the night 365 days a year. I have lived next to such railway lines, I have lived under the Heathrow flight path for over 30 years and I have lived by major roads in Glasgow, so I have experience of all of them. In many respects, aviation noise is a bit easier if it is reduced from time to time by runways and flights being switched.
Going back to the comment by my noble friend Lady Worthington on the emissions problem, some of the predictions that have been made about aviation in 50 years’ time are wildly wrong because they are based on the assumption that there will be no scientific development. If you take the scientific development that has been achieved now, leaving aside fuels and just looking at efficiency, you will get nowhere near the figures predicated in the horror scenarios. I say this as someone who has been worried about climate change for years—I wrote my first article on it in the early 1980s—but I have also seen how the green movement got things badly wrong on Brent Spar. It ignored the scientific advice on that and on nuclear power, which I saw as essential to get us out of the hole we were in.
I do not want to turn this into a long debate on the environment, but I want to say, as my noble friends Lady Worthington and Lord Clinton-Davis have said, that if we give the CAA a duty to work with NATS, the department and the Committee on Climate Change we are getting quite a good link-up. We all know about the problem of air traffic control centres in Europe— I mentioned this at Second Reading, so I shall not speak about it at great length—but we have 10 times more than North America for a similar amount of airspace. There is a great fight in Europe about who has to close an air traffic control centre. Believe it or not, no country wants to close one, so we end up flying in doglegs across Europe, which increases fuel use. There is some very encouraging work being done on this, but it would be useful to have in the Bill a requirement to work with the organisations, especially that contained in Amendment 6, which is the amendment I prefer on this.
Earl Cathcart
I shall speak to the last three amendments in this group as they follow naturally from what I said at Second Reading. I support Amendments 7 and 13A—Amendment 13A has been substituted for Amendment 12—and will deal with them together as they are identical. It must be right for the CAA to have a duty to have regard to the impact of airports on the environment and local communities.
Chapter 1 sets out new arrangements for the economic regulation of dominant airports in the UK. These new arrangements were largely designed by Professor Cave, who the then Secretary of State appointed in 2009 to propose a new regulatory system for the UK’s airports. The Bill almost entirely follows his advice. I say “almost” because Cave recommended that the CAA, in its role as economic regulator, should have a supplementary duty,
“to have regard to the effect on the environment and on local communities of activities connected with the provision of airport services”.
This is missing from the Bill. As we heard at Second Reading and from the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, every other comparable UK regulator has some form of statutory environmental duty. Why should there be an exception for the aviation industry, especially in view of the serious impacts that airport operations and air transport services can have on the environment and local communities?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is for the CAA to work out whether it is in the public interest to publish the information.
I recognise the value of noble Lords’ contributions, particularly those of the noble Lords, Lord Clinton-Davis and Lord Soley, and my noble friend Lord Cathcart. They made very important points and some of the technical points made by the noble Lords, Lord Clinton-Davis and Lord Soley, were very interesting. I share the concerns about the environmental impacts of airport operations and wider aviation. The coalition takes the environmental impacts of aviation very seriously, as I have explained.
Each of these amendments seeks to add to the Bill supplementary duties that relate to environmental or planning issues. Amendments 4, 5, 6, 7 and 13A seek to add supplementary duties to the CAA and the Secretary of State’s airport economic regulation functions, whereas Amendment 69 seeks to add an overarching duty for all the CAA’s functions, including airport economic regulation. This would create a tension with the CAA’s primary duty in Clause 1(1).
I turn first to the amendments that would provide the possibility of the CAA having an overarching environmental duty. The idea is not a new one. The previous Government consulted on a general environmental objective for the CAA, along with parallel proposals for a general consumer and safety objective. No clear support for a general environmental objective was evident. This flowed from Sir Joseph Pilling’s review of the CAA. The responses to the consultation were mixed and did not show clear support for a general environmental objective. For example, concern was expressed about ensuring a clear boundary between environmental policy, which was seen as the role of the Government, and the role of an expert aviation regulator, where safety was seen as the priority. After all, the Environment Agency is the body responsible for regulating environmental issues.
Lord Soley
I am looking again at Clause 84. The Minister has indicated that he wants to help the Committee on this issue. When he responds on this at a later stage, will he consider whether Clause 84(2) could apply to all airports? It states:
“The CAA may publish guidelines and advice with a view to reducing, controlling or mitigating adverse environmental effects on civil aviation in the United Kingdom”.
In a way, it refers to the whole of the UK and I am not sure why, with a bit of tweaking, Clause 84 could not cover some of the points that we have made.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Soley Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Soley
Like other speakers, I welcome the general thrust of this Bill. I am sure that we shall make some improvements in Committee. I would like to see it in the context of a proper aviation policy, which I fear we do not have at the moment. I am rather nervous about some of the papers that might come out from the Government, although the Prime Minister today, in answer to Zac Goldsmith, the MP for Richmond Park, declined to give a commitment that, if re-elected, the Government would not build a third runway. This argument is moving and there are growing numbers of people who recognise that the only realistic possibility is the expansion of Heathrow. It is something that I have been saying for many years, but I will not spend a great deal of time on it now because the House and other people have heard my views on many occasions. I simply reiterate that at a time of economic recession, a third runway is estimated to add some £8 billion to the British economy, and all the investment is totally private sector. The idea of not doing it is crazy. If we do not do it soon, we will continue to lose out. A number of Members around this House have made that point.
I want to make an additional point—and this is where it would be good if the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, could talk to the noble Lord, Lord Rogan. I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, understands the concept of a hub airport. That is curious because he seems to love trains, and I presume that he understands the concept of what is in effect a hub railway station. People go to the big railway stations in big cities to interchange to get to other places.
Perhaps I may give the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, an obvious example, and I would like him to think it through, because the opponents are getting in the way of the advantages that would accrue to us if we took the necessary decisions. I could give him many examples similar to that of the Japanese businessman who wishes to invest in Europe and has investment meetings here. He wants to fly on to his factory in Liverpool and can do that by going to London, getting a train across to King’s Cross, getting the train to Luton, and then flying to Liverpool. Or he could go to Euston and get the train all the way to Liverpool. Alternatively, he can fly to Amsterdam, have his meeting there, decide his investment policies, and fly straight to Liverpool. That is true of dozens of regional airports around Britain. We are not just doing damage to London; we are doing damage to our regions and it is important to understand that.
I will not proceed further on that, other than to make the more general point that in aviation generally we still have the second largest and second most advanced aerospace industry in the world. Although we will not retain that position much longer, for all the obvious reasons about emerging countries, we can retain the great advantage that we have, particularly in science and technology. We can do that only if we have a good civil aviation policy and a defence policy that goes with it to support the aviation industry. Everyone in the industry understands that, and that is why when I make speeches such as this I get so much support from across the whole industry. That is generally recognised by all, and I ask the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, to talk this through with people, understand the concept of the hub and why you cannot have more than one hub airport in one major area. You can have several hub airports in a large country, but not otherwise. That is important.
I wanted to mention investment in Heathrow and so on. Although the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, who has had to slip out for a while, has saved me some time, I want to reiterate this issue—which the noble Lord, Lord Patten, also touched on. There is a problem here. My understanding is that it would not require much tweaking of the Bill to give Heathrow the protection that it needs in terms of investment policies in infrastructure. We could look at that in Committee, because it is an important matter which we should flag up.
I want to refer to two other matters mentioned by another speaker. Clearly, we must give the CAA a duty of efficiency, and the National Audit Office is relevant in this context. The idea of the CAA not being answerable to the National Audit Office is, frankly, dumb. I believe that we were thinking of doing that some time ago when we were in government and considered introducing a similar Bill. That was the intention.
I want to say a quick word about the issue of airline holiday sales and the Air Travel Organisers Licensing scheme. My understanding from the CAA is that it believes that airline holiday sales should come under the new ATOL arrangements. It was drawn to my attention that the number of people whose holidays are protected by the ATOL scheme has reduced considerably, and today only around 50% of holidaymakers travel with full financial protection from ATOL. Those figures are from the CAA. We should all recognise and support its proposal.
Security issues, dealt with in Clauses 78 to 82, are very important. This is perhaps not the moment to discuss them in detail, although we may do so in Committee. I am slightly worried about the way that we are tackling this area. It is difficult to get right, although it may be that the Government have received advice from the security industry generally, including the security departments of government. However, we need to get this right. I remember the Minister saying at one time that her plan was to make Heathrow better, not bigger. When you look at the queues at Heathrow you realise that, whatever else she has done, she has not achieved that.
Part of the reason is that we have not tackled effectively the whole issue of immigration, passport clearance and so on. The recent sacking of the head of that department has produced a situation where there is almost a work to rule. I am not justifying that, but if you tell the workforce that they must obey the Immigration Rules to the letter, they will do that—and that is what they are doing. That may be good, bad or indifferent, but you cannot easily blame those staff without recognising that the Government, by saying what they said and doing what they did, have made the problem far worse. We have to rely to a considerable degree on the good sense and, above all, the training of these people. If you tell them that they cannot use that good sense and training and give them a set of rules which you tell them to obey to the letter—and if you tell them that they will lose their jobs if they do not follow the rules to the letter—then they will obviously do just that: follow the rules to the letter. That would account for the terrible queues at Heathrow, which have done immense damage. The airport’s position in the international airline stakes is bad enough.
My noble friend and colleague Lord Davies of Stamford said that Heathrow was now number four in terms of aircraft movements. It has slipped to number eight in terms of the destinations it serves. That is by far the most serious slippage for a major airport. To compound that with a lack of effective ground operations in terms of clearing the queues and so on is therefore a major failure.
Lord Davies of Stamford
Just to set the record straight, what I actually said was that Heathrow is currently third in Europe for aircraft movements—behind Roissy and Frankfurt—but that it will be fourth by 2020, behind Roissy, Frankfurt and Schiphol, both in terms of movements and passenger numbers.
Lord Soley
I accept that. I was simply making the point that in terms of destinations served, Heathrow has been way down for a long time, and it is slipping further.
On the issue of the environment, there are opportunities to get this right in Clause 84. I am interested in subsection (5), which gives the CAA a duty to fund certain research and so on, including on health—an issue which the noble Countess, Lady Mar, might be interested in. As for what the CAA can do, it seems perfectly possible to interpret subsection (5) as meaning that the CAA could do more to raise the profile of environmental research, and not necessarily by spending a great deal. It always struck me that in airports and aircraft generally there is a captive audience for the environmental message.
There is always room for improvement in what airports can do on ground operations. Five or six years ago, when I first spoke at the Airport Operators Association’s annual conference, there was a lack of willingness to acknowledge that airport operators ought to be aiming, as far as possible, to get zero emissions from ground operations. Now, all airports are trying to do that. There is no reason why, in Clause 84, we could not ask the CAA to look at things such as the effectiveness of airlines in introducing drop-in fuels—algae-based and other biological fuels that are now regularly being mixed with jet fuel by many airlines around the world—and modern aircraft design. That is because a lot of the noise problem comes not from engines but from air frames.
Incidentally, I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, to get off his hobby horse of railways and recognise the overall problem. I can tell him that, having lived under the flight path of Heathrow for something like 30 years, I would far rather do that than live next to the high-speed rail line in west London, where the trains run through at 100 miles an hour, less than 100 feet from people’s front and back doors, which goes on throughout the night—24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Although I recognise the noise problem, I would simply say that this is a problem for all transport systems. Rather than picking out aircraft, trains, cars, or whatever, the message is to look at a modern transport system and do it environmentally.
I have a couple of final points. The stacking issue is important, and several people have mentioned it. We will not stop stacking at Heathrow until we dramatically reduce the number of flights—in which case we may as well close the airport—or we expand the airport. The other problem, which is a much bigger problem for Europe, is the number of air traffic control centres in the European area. There were 50 such centres the last time I looked, compared with about 10 for the whole of the North American continent. Until we reduce that number we will not be able to fly in straight lines; we will have to fly in dog-legs across Europe. The Minister will know that. However, I am not sure that we will be able to get agreement on this issue given the number of jobs involved which will be defended by various countries at various times.
I have one final, brief point which the Minister might like to come back on at another time. I am puzzled about the situation whereby some airports owned by the Ministry of Defence also handle civilian flights. I am not sure what the CAA will be covering. Northolt is an obvious example. It has been increasing the number of civil flights, usually involving privately owned aircraft. I am not sure whether the Bill will cover the activities in a MoD-owned airport where there is a civilian operation as well. I welcome the Bill and look forward to dealing with some of it in Committee.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I start by declaring an interest. I am chairman of Fairoaks Airport Consultative Committee—a small privately owned aerodrome only about 10 miles from Heathrow in Surrey, but not a candidate, I can assure your Lordships, for the third London airport.
I start by saying that I, too, accept the broad thrust of the Bill. The great issue before civil aviation and the Government is the provision of sufficient runway capacity in the south-east. At the moment as everybody knows, Heathrow, if not full, is close to it, and there is much speculation and discussion as to where the additional capacity should be provided. I listened with interest to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Soley, who was, I think, saying that he is in favour of a third runway at Heathrow. He was once the distinguished Member of Parliament for Hammersmith, as I recall. Indeed, I remember it only too well, because for a while I was the junior Aviation Minister while he was the MP for that constituency. I seem to remember him coming to represent the views of his constituency about flights in and out of Heathrow, as they passed over his constituents, in a fairly critical manner. But perhaps the world has changed. In truth, it has changed, and I must be fair to the noble Lord, because the impact of civil aviation on the population underneath is less now than it was 10 or 20 years ago. He is entitled to take that view and therefore perhaps to now accommodate the idea of a third runway at Heathrow, although that is not a popular view among those who live a little nearer to the airport than do his former constituents in Hammersmith.
Lord Soley
I think I remember the meeting the noble Lord is talking about. It would have been in the very early 1980s. Actually, it was about night flights. I have been in favour of a third runway since 1989 or 1990, and I spoke in favour of it in the House of Commons. However, night flights are different, and I would not go back on that. We have to be very careful about night flights.
Lord Trefgarne
I agree with that. Indeed, I recall that one of the very first issues I was asked to deal with as the junior Aviation Minister—I was there for only nine months, I think—was the numbers of night flights permitted from Heathrow. I dare say the noble Lord came with other Members of Parliament from local constituencies to make their representations to me.
If a third runway is not to be provided at Heathrow—and the Government seem to have set their mind in that direction—then where is it to be provided? Of course, I listened with interest to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Patten, about a sort of mega-airport, as he seemed to be saying, with two runways at Gatwick and two at Heathrow, connected by some wonderful new interconnecting railway. I must confess I have not heard that proposition before, and no doubt the Minister will want to consider it very carefully.
I also listened with interest to the speech of the noble Countess, Lady Mar. She has, of course, made her representations on these matters to your Lordships on several occasions before. They ought to be considered carefully, but it is also fair to say that very few, if any, of the major air-worthiness authorities take a similar view to her. For example, I would have thought that if there were a real issue along the lines that the noble Countess was predicating, presumably the Civil Aviation Authority would have taken some steps to move in that direction. Perhaps it will one day. Perhaps she is a voice crying in the wilderness; perhaps she is a sort of John the Baptist, who will in due course convert us all. But she does, at least, deserve the courtesy of a proper consideration of what she has said, so I shall read it with care. Like almost every noble Lord, I have been a passenger many times in my life, but I was also a pilot for some years, so I am no less interested than she is in these matters.
My noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding referred to some of the important considerations that arise from Part 1, particularly the ring-fencing of the assets of BAA and any other airport operator which finds itself in a similar position, and the question of the right of appeal when those assets are ring-fenced. He makes an important point that will need to be considered carefully when we get to Committee. My noble friend can count on my interest at least, if not support, in these matters when that time comes.
Further provisions of this Bill which are not sufficiently covered are those for general aviation, in which I have played a small part over the years. General aviation is now largely excluded from Heathrow, for obvious reasons, and is almost totally excluded, though not quite so, from Gatwick. It is therefore required to operate from places like Farnborough, and indeed Fairoaks, to which I have already referred. That presents difficulty, particularly for interconnection with other flights, but I do hope that some provision for general aviation can continue to be made, if not at Heathrow then at least at Gatwick and Stansted.
The time marches on. I certainly intend to play a detailed part when we get to the Committee stage of this Bill. I support the broad thrust of what is proposed, but there are a number of detailed matters which will need further consideration.
Aviation Policy
Lord Soley Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My noble friend is right: consultation is important, as is listening. I have listened to what noble Lords have said in the Chamber and outside, as have my right honourable friends in another place. Government policy is that there will be no third runway at Heathrow. The Government will of course follow the proper process in relation to the call for evidence on hub connectivity. However, it is unlikely that we will discover that we have not maxed out on what Heathrow’s affected population can tolerate.
Lord Soley
The Minister is very good at listening, but I point out that we would like some action. The Government keep saying that they want growth. Aviation expansion related to Europe and the global economy is vital. The third runway at Heathrow would cost nothing to the public and would add about £8 billion to the GDP of this country. Why on earth do they not just get on with it and create employment and growth at the same time?
Airports (Amendment) Bill [HL]
Lord Soley Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Soley
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Empey, on his timely and interesting Bill. I have great sympathy for the people of Northern Ireland, who are acutely concerned—and have been for many years—about losing the link between Belfast and London Heathrow. The link is vital for investment. All Governments put an enormous effort into ensuring that Northern Ireland is at the top of the agenda for international investment, but they will not be able to maintain that unless Belfast airports are able to link in effectively to Britain’s only hub airport.
I would be less sympathetic towards the Bill if I had any confidence that the proposed government White Paper on aviation, which we will see in the near future, was going to address the issue of our hub airport and state what is going to happen either to Heathrow or the proposals for an alternative hub elsewhere. I fear the White Paper will have a big hole in the middle—that is, a lack of policy around the crucial importance of our premier hub airport. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, rightly pointed out, it is at the moment full and, unlike other hub airports around the world, and particularly our main competitors in Europe— Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Paris and Madrid—it is not in a position to grow. Those other airports, of course, are busy soaking up the investment that would otherwise come to Britain.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, does not fear that the route will be lost in the short term and I think he is right about that. I do not think the new International Airline Group will, if it takes over BMI, immediately sell off the link. Indeed, IAG has made many statements over recent months, both in the British and Irish press, both north and south, stating that it will not do so, and I put some store in that.
However, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, rightly said, this is about the long term and not only the short term, and that is a crucial fact. If you had asked people some 20-odd years ago, “Would you not be able to fly to some of the great regional cities of Britain from Heathrow in 20 or so years’ time?”, they would have said, “No, of course we would”. In fact you cannot. You can now fly from Heathrow to only seven regional cities in the United Kingdom, whereas Amsterdam will fly you to 21 British regional cities. You do not have to be too clever to work out where international investors who are looking to have their investment meetings at a hub airport and then fly on to visit their factories or for other purposes will go to: they will go to other hub airports which are better serviced.
The temptation for a hub airport which is squeezed in the way that Heathrow is squeezed is eventually to sell off the short-haul slots because, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, rightly pointed out, they are less profitable. The Bill at least gives some feeling of safeguard because Clause 1 amends the Airports Act 1986 and imposes a duty on the Civil Aviation Authority to protect those regional links.
I do not want to spend too much time on this—I am aware of the time factor for the House—but in this country we fail to grasp at times that the aviation infrastructure of Europe and the world is similar to the infrastructure that Britain developed first with the railway network of the 19th century. It was the first time that an industrialised national economy was linked by a rail network. There were hub railway stations, if you like, in places such as Manchester Piccadilly, Glasgow Central, London King’s Cross and so on, and the hub airports perform the same function. You did not get a train from Stirling to London; you got a train to Glasgow or Edinburgh and then got your train to London. That is what hub airports do and they are crucial for the exchange.
Demand for the all-important investment meetings has grown and perhaps I may use a simple example to point out the real danger that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, seeks to address. Liverpool used to have a direct link with Heathrow. Now a Japanese businessman with a factory in Liverpool can no longer fly there unless he flies to Heathrow, gets off there with his bags and baggage, goes by train or bus to Luton—which has just agreed to expand, as my noble friend Lord McKenzie will be very pleased to know—and flies from there. Of course, the alternative—which they are all using—is to go to Amsterdam and fly direct to Liverpool, which has many links.
This is happening across the country but we are not being serious about it. That is why I say to the Minister again—he is probably bored stiff with me saying it over the years—that unless we maintain a premier hub airport that can deliver the same quality of services we will continue to lose these network routes, which will go to European airports instead or, in some cases, airports in emerging countries.
At least this Bill would give the people of Northern Ireland confidence that, like former Governments, this Government appreciate the importance of investment in Northern Ireland. That has been a driving force for us for many years given that the Northern Ireland economy had fallen behind that of the rest of the United Kingdom and, indeed, southern Ireland. Air links are critical for Northern Ireland. Some people believe that trains are the answer to all this but I do not. Trains are very important and I am in favour of high-speed rail but we should not kid ourselves that they will replace planes. Moreover, trains are not an option for Northern Ireland in this context.
The safeguard that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has included in the Bill sends a serious signal to the Government which they ought to take seriously. If the Minister says in replying to this Second Reading that the Government have decided either to expand Heathrow or to create a new hub airport somewhere else, then I would say that this Bill is less necessary. However, until the Government bite the bullet and recognise that their policy on hub aviation in Britain is seriously flawed and is having a profoundly damaging effect on our economy, and address that situation, frankly, there will be increasing demands for short-haul routes to be protected, particularly from places such as Belfast which cannot link with countries overseas by rail. That is very important not just for Belfast but for many other British regional cities, particularly in the north of Scotland and the far west of England.
Aviation: UK Civil Aviation
Lord Soley Excerpts(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Soley
My Lords, in congratulating my noble friend Lady Gibson on securing this important debate I want to move on to make a prediction, if I may, which is that in due course the Government will reverse their position on airport expansion in the south-east. It is a matter of time. I do not expect the current Minister to do it today because he will stick rigidly to the government line, which I have discussed with him a number of times, but increasingly the Government are concerned about it. They ought to have been concerned about it before making that foolish promise before the election not to expand Heathrow, as the problem for Britain is now acute. Amsterdam, in effect, is our hub airport. Frankfurt is taking all the work from India and China. Madrid is taking it increasingly from South America and will increasingly move it from North America, which is why British Airways will eventually move more of its operations there than it has already. The situation is really serious.
I would simply say to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, who to my mind has always had her head in the sand on this, that when I spoke at a meeting in her then constituency there were a couple of hundred people, mainly from the Green Party, the Liberal Party and the Conservatives. As she will know, I was not given a welcome when I was speaking in favour of the expansion of Heathrow but the chairman, to his infinite credit, suddenly asked everyone to indicate who had flown from Heathrow that year— and everybody put up their hands. That is the hypocrisy which lies behind this. I say to the noble Baroness and to other people, yes, we have to address the environmental issue—I will touch on that in a moment—but remember that all the polling in the 12 local authorities around Heathrow shows a much more divided opinion about whether people are in favour of or against expansion. Why is it divided fairly evenly? Precisely because so many people work at Heathrow: 76,000 on the airport and another 100,000 dependent on its remaining a premier hub airport. However, it is no longer a premier hub airport. It is great that Heathrow can fly you to seven British regional cities, but Amsterdam will fly you to 21.
People say to me, “Well, we are going to have the high-speed link”, but remember that the high-speed link is not coming until the end of the 2020s. Tell me what is environmentally good about producing millions of tons of concrete to create that line, each tonne requiring the production of one tonne of CO2, and what is environmental about knocking 20 minutes off the journey time to Birmingham. I am in favour of the high-speed rail line, but do not kid yourself that it is an answer to the environmental issues or to the problem of airport expansion.
Let us come to the environmental issue. Aviation was slow to respond to the pressure. One of the things I said when, many years ago, I took on the job—which I no longer have—of campaign director for Future Heathrow was that unless people upped their game on the environmental issue, they would not win on this case. They needed to up it and they have. As I have reminded people before, we would not know half of what we know about climate change if it were not for the aerospace industry. How do your Lordships think we measure it, and why is Britain so advanced in climate change science? Because we have the aerospace industry, the second most advanced in the world, producing the technology that tells us about it. What is the answer? It is already happening. Most of our new airliners coming on-stream are better not only environmentally—much better in terms of fuel efficiency—but in terms of noise. I still have a room in London, not far from Kingston. When the A380 flies over my old constituency, where I have lived for 30-odd years, why is it so much quieter? You can hardly hear the A380 when it goes over, whereas you could really hear the old ones. They are getting quieter and more fuel efficient.
This is my final point. As the Minister knows, I referred him to the new developments in fuel. Algae is a hopeful one. Virgin airlines, New Zealand airlines, American Airlines, British Airways and a host of others are flying now with a fuel mix. They do not use kerosene. The noble Baroness is out of touch on this. Most of the United States Air Force in Afghanistan uses algae as a fuel in its aircraft. Why? It is because it has strategic needs for it. There are scientific answers to this problem, and if we do not use them we will throw thousands of people out of work just to satisfy some people who will want to go on flying and still complain about the noise or the pollution.