Employers: Fire and Rehire Tactics
Lord Offord of Garvel Excerpts(1 year, 3 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Woodley
To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to prevent employers from using fire and rehire tactics.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)
My Lords, earlier this year the Government consulted on a new statutory code of practice on fire and rehire. We are currently analysing responses to that consultation. A government response and the final version of the code will be published in spring next year. The code sets out employers’ responsibilities when seeking to change contractual terms and conditions of employment and seeks to ensure that dismissal and re-engagement is used only as a last resort.
Lord Woodley (Lab)
The code of practice as published is toothless, unfortunately. It contains no legal obligations on employers and adds only 25% to any compensation, no matter how small it may be—that is no solution. As we all know, what is needed is legislation—as there was in Australia this week—to end the scandal of fire and rehire; most decent people in this place and across the country support that view. When the Bill was proposed in the other place, the Government disappointingly ordered an unprecedented Friday three-line Whip and gerrymandered to filibuster and therefore embarrass a proper vote. I have been informed—
Lord Woodley (Lab)
With respect, I will continue. I have been informed that my Bill will not get a Second Reading. Can the Minister explain why the Government seem to be using every trick in the parliamentary playbook to prevent us even debating this much-needed change in the law?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I thank the noble Lord for his follow-up question. The UK labour market is strong by historical and international standards. In fact, in all employment law we are trying to get the balance right between workers’ protection and employers’ flexibility. The employment rate is at 75% right now, and wages have gone up by just short of 8% in the last year, so we think we have the balance right. The Government are taking action to ensure that this practice is a last resort. We are not banning it outright. In the code, we have measures whereby employees’ compensation in certain circumstances, as the noble Lord alluded to, can be increased by 25% if the employer has unreasonably failed to comply with the code, which is quite a big disincentive for the employer. But we believe that there are certain circumstances in which flexibility is required, so we are seeking to get the balance right.
Lord Watts (Lab)
My Lords, when we left the European Union, the Government said that they would introduce legislation to protect workers and that it would be better than in the European Union. Can he name countries in Europe where this could happen?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
As I said, when we look at the standards of employment law against our competitors in Europe, we have a strong labour market, a strong rate of employment and a long-established suite of protections for all our workers, employees and self-employed people.
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)
My Lords, what is the assessment of the Minister’s department of how much compensation would have been received if the proposed guidance had been in force when P&O sacked hundreds of its employees? As another noble Lord said, 25% of nothing is nothing; it is all smoke and mirrors.
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I thank the noble Lord for raising that rather infamous case. What P&O did was illegal. It was not fire and rehire but dismiss and replace. It would remain illegal whether or not the code had been in place, and P&O has received considerable censure as a result. The code, which will come through in the spring, will give real guidance and protection to both employers and workers.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, we know that companies quite often have to close down or change their practices, either because of a competitive market or because they have been managed badly. In one-factory towns, for example, where one company is a major employer, when it has to close, are there any forums for the Government to work together with trade unions to retrain those workers who have lost their jobs to compete in the new global economy?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
This is exactly why flexibility is required, because certain changes of circumstances require the workers and managers of a company to get together with the trade unions and the directors to solve the problem through consultation and consensus, and that is generally what happens in the UK. Indeed, as my noble friend will know, we have a number of measures to help employees back into work.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, is there a code of fire and rehire for Ministers in the Government?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I welcome the noble Lord back to Questions. I think that is a very good proposal; we can put it forward to the relevant department.
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, this Session has been plagued by thick Bills. To effect the change that my noble friend calls for would take only a very simple Bill. Can we expect it to be announced in the King’s Speech in November?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
As we have said clearly, we are consulting and there will be a code of practice. This practice is used very rarely. Even the TUC in 2020 indicated that only 3% of employers had used fire and rehire and only 9% of employees had experienced it even as a threat. Therefore, the code is the right way forward in this case.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, further to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, does my noble friend not think it a disgrace that a third of our Ministers on the Front Bench are unpaid and that there are instances of paid Ministers being fired and then rehired on the basis that they do the job on no salary? Should the Government not tackle this in the interests of democracy and fair dealing to our Ministers, who do such an excellent job in this House in very difficult circumstances?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
My noble friend raises an interesting question—this is going off on all sorts of tangents at this point. Those of us who are in this House consider it to be a great privilege, those who are asked to serve the Government consider it a great honour, and we continue to serve the country as best we can.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
I am sure the House has a great deal of sympathy for many of the new Ministers who have come in, especially as they are not being paid. They may not recall, although I hope the Minister does, that his Government gave a promise in 2019 that an employment Bill would become an Act during the course of this Parliament. I go back to the earlier question: will the Minister say whether an employment Bill will be in the King’s Speech in November, or is this another broken promise?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
Throughout the course of this Parliament, commitments have been made around the manifesto commitments on employment given by the party on this side of the House. Over the last Parliament, six Private Members’ Bills have been brought through to enhance and protect workers’ rights. As I said, we are trying to strike the balance between workers’ protection and employers’ flexibility.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, in answer to my noble friend’s question about P&O Ferries, the Minister rightly characterised its behaviour as an illegal act. However, P&O Ferries is now economically active and out there, doing what it always did. Will the Minister undertake to do an analysis of the turnover and profit of P&O Ferries now versus the sanctions it received? If those sanctions prove to have been insufficient, as I believe they will, will the Minister undertake to increase them to prevent a repeat of that disgraceful activity?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
My understanding is that the P&O case is still under consideration with the insolvency authorities, so I cannot comment further on it. Further consultation is going on, taking account of this case and specifically the difference between dismissal and redundancy. That will also be in the code of practice. P&O has received censure. It continues to operate within the laws of the United Kingdom and should be allowed to continue to do so.
Lord Leong (Lab)
My Lords, good business leaders recognise that without workers they have no business. Valuing workers, treating them with dignity and respect, and mutual trust build a dedicated, motivated workforce. Unfortunately, some employers still adopt fire and hire practices with relative impunity, disrespecting their employees’ livelihoods and well-being. In turn, that damages the reputation and profitability of their business. Do the Government think it just for workers to be treated in this manner? Why will they not stop it?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
As I indicated, only 3% of employers have ever used these tactics. The majority of good employers understand full well that the health of their company requires a happy and motivated workforce. This is a minority situation. The code of practice will give it greater clarity going forward.
Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership
Lord Offord of Garvel Excerpts(1 year, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Leong (Lab)
My Lords, while we will always welcome improved trade relationships, the political capital invested by the Government in this announcement seems disproportionate to the potential economic impact. The deal will increase the UK’s GDP by 0.08% after 15 years. Since the Government were not able to negotiate the terms of the UK’s membership, I will ask the Minister two questions. Will it lead to the lowering of food standards or of our intellectual property protection standards? China applied to join CPTPP in September 2021—what assurances on economics and security have Ministers asked for from existing CPTPP members in relation to China’s membership?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)
Noble Lords, it is a momentous occasion to be able to talk in this House about the signing of the CPTPP. This is a tongue twister, but we are all going to have to get our mouths around it because we are going to hear a lot more about this in the future. This is a massive region of 11 countries in the Indo-Pacific, which account, together with the UK, for 15% of world trade GDP.
We know that this trade deal originally had the US in it, and Donald Trump took the US out. That created a gap. For those of us who play the game of rugby football, you always go for the gap. The UK has taken that gap and got into this deal, which, to come to the specifics of the question, will in no way impact on our food standards and regulatory standards.
On the matter of China, China is not a member of this group. China has expressed some interest, but there are other interested countries such as Costa Rica, Ecuador, Uruguay, the Philippines and Korea that are in line before China. So, as far as we are concerned, at the moment we are not commenting on China’s accession. China has expressed an interest but, on the exact question, there will be no reduction of food standards and general regulation through this deal.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, I very warmly welcome the 0.08% estimated growth over 15 years of this momentous agreement. But, with regard to China, it is more than simply expressing an interest; it is seeking to commence the accession process. If that happens, we will be bound to share data with China under part of the CPTPP common data provisions. That will mean that we will no longer have data adequacy with the European Union. We currently have a trade deficit in goods with China of £43 billion. Would it not make more sense to have eased trade with Europe rather than more trade deficit with China?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
Some 45% of our trade in the world is with the EU. In fact, if you take Europe as now being 34 countries—if you take the likes of Norway, Switzerland, Israel et cetera—it is pushing 50% of our trade, whereas China is £100 billion, which is more like 10%. So we are very clear that our primary market is with Europe and the first deal we did on Brexit was a free trade agreement with Europe. So we have free trade with Europe, as we stand, and that will continue to be our dominant market. This is the bonus that we get from going to international markets that we could not get access to before. If we were inside the EU, we could not have signed this deal, just as we could not have signed a deal with India. When you have 28 people wanting 28 different things, it is difficult to negotiate, is it not? Here we have a deal with the CPTPP which we would not have access to otherwise and I think we should celebrate.
As to the number on GDP, we are talking about a £2 billion impact on trade, which is a big, big number. It will go all around the UK, not just to London and the south-east. I can give you a breakdown of the numbers in every region, if the noble Lord needs it. The fact is that it will be a dynamic deal. This is going to be the fastest-growing consumer sector in the world. It is going to have a big increase in GDP. As the Secretary of State said at the press conference, it is up to us now. It is up to the UK now to maximise the benefits of this deal and I am very convinced that we will get great trading opportunities out of it.
Lord Swire (Con)
My Lords, the slightly negative terms introduced by some noble Lords on this is regrettable. Some of the countries within this grouping have very fast-growing economies and represent huge potential for British exporters, so I really do believe that we should welcome this move. We want to see many more trade deals of this sort. I think it is the largest trade deal since we have come out of the EU, but certainly there will be many British exporters up and down this country who would perhaps express warmer feelings towards this than some noble Lords have so far done today.
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I thank the noble Lord for that. In fact, the Department for Business and Trade, being ahead of the game as always, is already thinking about how to get utilisation of this trade deal done, to get through to all the regions and nations of the United Kingdom, to make sure in particular that all of our SME community has access to this deal—for example, Malaysia is a country we have never had a trade deal with before, and we now have tariff-free trade with Malaysia. A particular focus of mine, as the export Minister, will be to increase the level of access to our SMEs, because these are real companies, employing real people in real places,
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister not agree that there is a geostrategic aspect to this agreement? By almost every measure—investment and everything—the UK has more involvement in that region than any other EU country. We also run global shipping from the UK. In that sense, there is a geostrategic aspect, which is to be welcomed. Does the Minister agree?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
The noble Lord will be able to comment much more on the geopolitical aspect than I can, because I come to this looking at it very much as a trade deal. When I was introduced to the deal, I looked at the map and could see that we were nowhere near the Indo-Pacific. The fact that we have come into that deal must surely be because we have such extensive reach in the region, and therefore in addition to trade there will be a knock-on effect for our geopolitical security, I am sure.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, the nature of the CPTPP is that the countries that are trading with each other have to police the new trade that results from that agreement. Can the Minister tell your Lordships how the Government will set up the process of monitoring and ensuring that the trade we have with this new group is truly free?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
The whole idea of the CPTPP deal is precisely to do with free trade and fair trade. That will be very closely monitored within the group. The benefit to our importers and exporters will be considerable, particularly around some of the rules of origin. We will now be in a position to accept goods coming in from these 11 countries, bring them into our supply chains and then export thereafter. The benefits are significant and, in the meantime, fair trade will be monitored, as it always would be.
Lord Lansley (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the impact assessment may significantly understate the potential economic benefits, for two good reasons? First, there is increasingly a worldwide digital economy and CPTPP has world-leading digital provisions within the agreement. Secondly, we are predominantly a services economy and those services are likely to grow more rapidly in the member countries. Can he further confirm that we will be full members of CPTPP and therefore able to exercise a view, with others, on the membership of any other country, including China?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I thank my noble friend and will take his last point first. Yes, we have just joined the club and the first thing you do when you join a club is not necessarily to comment on its existing or incoming members. We will get to that in due course, I am sure, but when we are fully ratified we will absolutely have a fair voice at the table on the membership. I thank him for raising digital and services because in my new job I am looking carefully at where and how our trade is conducted. There is an obsession with manufactured goods to the EU, but the fastest-growing part of our economy is digital services to non-EU countries. Our economy is moving rapidly to be two-thirds services versus one-third goods. Having a deal in this region, which has a very young and well-educated middle class, all fully digital, will provide a great opportunity to access this market, particularly for our SMEs.
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
My Lords, on the point of membership of this partnership, has the Minister considered the effect of trade with Taiwan in relation to this and relationships with China? What is the percentage of trade currently undertaken with Taiwan, and will the Government protect the future of that trade?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
Taiwan is an important trading partner of the United Kingdom. Taiwan has expressed some interest in the CPTPP but, again, it is not currently in the queue. As I said before, we will take our membership; we will then have a fair voice at the table and consider those matters when they arise.
E-scooters and E-bikes: Battery Fires
Lord Offord of Garvel Excerpts(1 year, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Foster of Bath
To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have, if any, to address the number of fires caused by lithium-ion batteries in e-scooters and e-bikes.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)
My Lords, the Government are committed to ensuring that consumers are protected from unsafe goods through our product safety framework. We are undertaking a programme of activities on the fire risks associated with lithium-ion batteries for e-scooters and e-bikes. These include establishing a safety study to understand evidence for enforcement and public safety information; carrying out research to inform future regulatory activity and guidance on safety and standards; and working with fire and rescue services, among others, on safety messaging.
Lord Foster of Bath (LD)
I thank the Minister for his reply, but I believe more urgent action is needed. After all, fires caused by lithium-ion batteries in e-scooters and e-bikes have quadrupled in number since 2020, costing millions of pounds and resulting in eight deaths and 190 injuries. Landfill sites are also experiencing a huge surge in lithium-ion battery fires, yet unsafe batteries and chargers are still being sold and there is no effective campaign to ensure safe recharging or disposal. So, with headlines such as, “Why do e-scooters and e-bikes keep exploding?”, fire services, councils, insurance companies and safety campaigners, including Electrical Safety First, are calling for more urgent action. Will the Minister agree to a meeting to discuss industry-developed solutions so that action can now be taken quickly?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I thank the noble Lord for that follow-up question. I assure all noble Lords that officials in three government departments are collaborating to address the issue of fires associated with e-scooters and e-bikes—specifically, the Office for Product Safety and Standards inside my own department, the Department for Business and Trade; the Home Office, which is interacting with fire services; and the Department for Transport, through the Office for Zero Emission Vehicles. Officials are proactively seeking the input and expertise of stakeholders from fire and rescue services, the National Fire Chiefs Council and London Fire Brigade, including their scientific advisers. Indeed, on 13 June, the Home Office hosted a meeting of senior officials from the relevant departments, London Fire Brigade and the National Fire Chiefs Council to further discuss the issues and the work which is under way.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, is there not a very simple answer to these wretched e-bikes and e-scooters: to ban them? That would solve at least part of my noble friend’s problem.
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I thank my noble friend for that welcome intervention. You might argue that this is the response of the consumer to messages about climate change—that the consumer is embracing the concept. Not only are they a cheaper mode of transport but they are much better for the planet. It is actually illegal to use an e-scooter on a public road and in spaces set aside for pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders—including pavements and cycle lanes—unless it is under licence. There are licences at the moment to allow trials to take place in 32 local authorities, in order to collect information to allow the DfT to work out how to proceed with this mode of transport.
Lord Rogan (UUP)
My Lords, unlike in England and Wales, e-scooters are illegal on the roads in Northern Ireland, but that has not stopped their use, with an e-scooter rider left in a critical condition last month after colliding with a car in east Belfast. Furthermore, just last weekend, the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service issued a warning after attending a spate of e-scooter fires caused by lithium-ion batteries. In the continuing absence of an Executive at Stormont, can I ask the Minister for an assurance that any future legislation brought forward by His Majesty’s Government relating to Northern Ireland does not include the legalisation of e-scooters?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I thank the noble Lord for his question on that specific matter in relation to one part of the United Kingdom, but this is not a UK-central issue: it is an international issue. New York is considering the whole gamut of proposals; its fire department has implemented a range of activities, which our Office for Product Safety is looking at. The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission has announced that it will hold a forum on 27 July to look at lithium-ion batteries and e-bikes after an increasing number of fires and fatalities. The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission has outlined lithium-ion batteries as one of its product safety priorities, while Barcelona has imposed a six-month ban on e-scooters on public transport and Paris has banned rental e-scooters. We are not alone in considering how to deal with this modern technology.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister tell us how many e-scooters are in legal circulation? Private e-scooters are to be driven only on private land, including car parks and private property; rented scooters are the ones that he referred to under pilot schemes. How many will go on to become permanently rented, lawfully and with a licence? Will licences soon be issued for privately owned e-scooters as well?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I thank my noble friend. I do not have the precise number so I will write to her. She is absolutely right: it is currently illegal to use an e-scooter on a public road. It is legal to use an e-scooter on private land with the permission of the landowner. Any person using an e-scooter on a public road is breaching the law and committing a criminal offence so can be prosecuted. The Government are providing e-scooter trials in 32 local authorities, as I said. These trials are taking place and will continue until the end of May 2024. Transport for London has banned the carriage of e-scooters and e-unicycles on its premises and services, so this is being regulated heavily. In the meantime, the trials continue.
Lord Winston (Lab)
My Lords, can the Minister kindly tell the House what methods other than lithium are being researched and how much the Government are spending on researching alternatives to lithium in batteries?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
That goes back to my department, the Department for Business and Trade, where the Office for Product Safety and Standards has established a safety study precisely to understand the data on and evidence of risks in the sector, as well as the alternatives; this will inform enforcement action. Specifically, the noble Lord will be pleased to know that a project is going on at the Warwick Manufacturing Group, which is part of the University of Warwick, in which intense conditions are being created to examine further the science and technology around this issue and the safety of lithium-ion batteries in personal light electric vehicles. Where the Office for Product Safety and Standards receives a notification that these products present a serious risk or need to be recalled, such notifications will be promoted on the product recalls and alerts websites, on social media and via stakeholders. I do not have a precise number on the amount for research, but I will write to the noble Lord with that figure.
Baroness Bull (CB)
My Lords, in reviewing the success of the trial periods, will the Government consider parking, particularly of these dockless vehicles, and the impact on people with impaired vision and disabilities when such vehicles are left on pavements?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
Yes. I am sure that that will be included in the review.
Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)
My Lords, the fire risks associated with lithium-ion batteries go beyond their use in e-bikes and e-scooters, adding to their wide-ranging risk in residential environments. Fire incidents caused by such batteries can also have severe environmental consequences due to the hazardous materials involved. Do the Government have any plans to work with manufacturers and recycling organisations to develop effective recycling and disposal methods for these batteries, ensuring that they are handled responsibly and minimising their impact on the environment?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I thank the noble Baroness and say absolutely yes on all counts. This is all part of the ongoing review. The work being done with the fire service is collecting information to find out how much of the risk is caused by the batteries versus the way they are used by the consumer in the household and whether they are being charged in the right way and in the right place. The consultation is ongoing and the results are imminent. We are fully cognisant of those risks.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, fires are one problem, but poor design of e-scooters means a low centre of gravity, ensuring that a lot of people who have accidents have head injuries. The Minister talks about studies and plans. The trials have been going on for years. Can he give us a date when the Government will actually do something about this problem?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
The consultation has started and will be published imminently. The findings will be made available. Generally, it is not the Government’s position to ban all dangerous items. Some modes of transport are more dangerous than others, but you choose your own mode of transport. Certainly, when it comes to affecting the public and increasing danger, that is exactly why the law prohibits these vehicles other than in a legal trial. With three departments working on this, I can safely say that the Government are alive to these issues.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister will recognise that lithium-ion batteries are used in a variety of products and not just e-scooters. What steps are the UK Government taking to ensure that we have sufficient supplies of lithium-ion, and are those supply chains from sources that do not involve modern slavery?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
That is a very far-reaching question. I will be delighted to write to the noble Lord on it.
Scottish Government: Expenditure
Lord Offord of Garvel Excerpts(1 year, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they intend to take further action on expenditure by the Scottish Government in relation to reserved matters.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Scotland Office (Lord Offord of Garvel) (Con)
My Lords, as the Prime Minister has made clear, we will continue to work constructively with the Scottish Government in tackling all the shared challenges that we face. However, in light of the recent Supreme Court ruling, I am concerned at the decision to appoint a Minister for Independence. The Secretary of State for Scotland’s view is that taxpayers’ money could be spent more wisely on delivery for the people of Scotland and on devolved services.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, since it is absolutely clear that the Minister agrees with me, and I think with this whole House, that the Scottish Government should not be spending UK taxpayers’ money on reserved areas, is it not quite outrageous that they are spending £100,000 on a so-called Minister for Independence to go around the country in a party-political campaign to break up Britain? Even worse, there are 20 United Kingdom civil servants supporting him. Since there is only one body that can do anything about it—that is the UK Government, the Minister and his Secretary of State—when is he going to take some action?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I thank the noble Lord for his tenacity on this subject, because I have now been in post for 18 months and this is the sixth Question I have answered for the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, on pretty much the same theme. It is a good theme: what do the UK Government do when they believe that the Scottish Government stray from devolved into reserved matters? We made some progress the last time we spoke in this Chamber; the previous Deputy First Minister, John Swinney, confirmed that he had taken away the £20 million that was going to be spent on the referendum on independence. But then, last week, we had the new head of the Scottish Civil Service, JP Marks, defending the appointment of the Minister for Independence, so we have sort of gone up a ladder and down a snake.
The issue here is that devolution, as devised by the noble Lord’s party, was conceived to be a construct in which the UK and Scottish Governments would work together in unity. It was not envisaged that we would have a situation in which the Scottish Government would seek every opportunity to find division and diversion away from Westminster, and therefore there are no practical levers or mechanics built into the devolution architecture for the UK Government to directly intervene in devolved matters, except through the courts. We already had the ruling in the Supreme Court. The UK Government’s position is to continue to ask the Scottish Government to focus on the real priorities of the people of Scotland and stop this obsession with independence.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
My Lords, I acknowledge the death of Lord Morris KG, who was a remarkable Member of this House. Could it be that we are getting to the time when there is a need to revisit the demarcations as laid down in the devolution legislation? There seem to be constant disputes going on, particularly in the area of trade treaties, as well as foreign policy generally and memoranda of understanding, as to what is and is not reserved in rapidly changing industrial and economic circumstances. Can my noble friend consider that?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I thank my noble friend for that question. In the Scotland Act, the devolution settlement is actually very simple. You can put it on one piece of A4; on the left you have devolved matters, and on the right reserved matters. The issue here is that since we have come out of the EU, in effect we have had to create a single market for the UK. The SNP loves the EU; it wants to be in a single market with 27 or 28 states, and agrees that there should be no divergence within that system. Post devolution, we now have a scenario in which we have four assemblies making laws in the UK but we want to keep the UK together. So now they are promoting a whole series of legislative moves that create divergence, which the people of Scotland do not want, especially in trade, not least as 60% of Scotland’s trade is with the rest of the United Kingdom and does not recognise borders.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, the Scottish Government have squandered hundreds of millions of pounds on mismanaged projects. They had a £2 billion underspend last year, have squeezed local government savagely and have made Scotland the highest-taxed area of the United Kingdom. Is it not clear that the current Scottish Parliament has neither the will nor the capacity to hold its Executive to account, and does not a wider consideration therefore need to be taken into account?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
I thank my noble friend for his helpful contribution there.
The reality is that Scotland is the best-funded part of the United Kingdom; for every £100 spent in England, £125 is spent in Scotland. That is not a subsidy; it is an equalisation payment, because the whole idea of the UK is that you get the same services whether you live in Streatham or Stornoway. It costs a lot more to deliver them in Stornoway than in Streatham, so we have to pay more for that. There has been no austerity put on the Scottish Government by the UK Government; in the last six years, Scottish spending on public services has gone up by 8%, against 6% for the UK, so that is not austerity. If the Scottish Government decide to choose to increase their welfare spend by 15% and their education spend only by 3%, that is a choice for the Scottish Government and they should be held to account at the ballot box.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister not understand what is happening here? The SNP Government are spending public money on issues they do not have a legal mandate for. Why is this Government, a unionist Government, not using their powers to put a stop to public money being used to divide our country? Action is required now.
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
The Scottish Government will argue that every area of legislation they are putting forward is within the devolution settlement. We sometimes disagree with that, and where we disagree with it vehemently, as we did on GRR, we invoke Section 35. That was the first time in 237 Bills that received Royal Assent and was not done lightly; that was done in a case where they strayed across the line and were making legislation for Scotland that had a negative impact on England. We will continue to monitor this. Fergus Ewing, who is part of SNP royalty, would blame the Bute House agreement with the Green Party—which he describes as wine bar revolutionaries—for putting forward “progressive” legislation designed to diverge from the UK, and that is what we must put an end to.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend think it reasonable that the Scottish Government, who cannot run ferry services to the Western Isles, where the roads are full of holes and the health service and education are in crisis, should have an office in Beijing? Why on earth should my taxes support an office in Beijing for the Scottish Government?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
Again, this is an issue of there being no SNP representative in this House. It is a bit like playing “Hamlet” without the prince; there is nobody here to put the Scottish Government’s case. They would say that under the devolution settlement they are allowed to promote Scotland overseas, in particular in relation to trade, and that they have eight embassies that they are using to promote trade across the UK. It came to our attention that it was not entirely the case that it was only in trade matters, and the Foreign Secretary has taken steps to pull that back into line.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, the questions asked by my noble friends Lord Foulkes and Lord McAvoy related specifically to the Minister for Independence. There are two issues here. One is the cost, particularly in times of constrained public finances, and what budget the money comes from. There is also a practical point. The Minister has spoken previously in this House about the independence of the Civil Service. Concerns have been raised in regular discussions between the Cabinet Secretary and the Scottish Government’s Permanent Secretary. Is the Minister aware of whether such concerns continue to be raised? If so, how does the Cabinet Office ensure that individual civil servants are not put in an invidious position regarding supporting political campaigns?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
The response to that question given by the head of the Civil Service in Scotland, JP Marks, was that he is entirely impartial and is there to do the bidding of the party in power, elected at the ballot box. It is in the manifesto of the SNP that it wants to break up the United Kingdom and hold an independence referendum, even though only a third of Scots want that. It has been in power for 15 years and has not been able to move it forward from a third, which means that the project has effectively failed and which is why we say: please get back to the day job of running the country more efficiently.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, I am happy to put the case for the progressive force of the Greens in the Scottish Parliament in your Lordships’ House. The Minister mentioned the deposit return scheme. I am sure he would want to take this opportunity to correct a misstatement by the Secretary of State for Scotland on BBC Scotland’s “Sunday Show”, which suggested that the glass recycled under the scheme was going to be crushed into aggregates. The head of Circularity Scotland has said that threatened £10 million of investment, when the figures are that on launching the scheme 90% of the glass is to be reused, and 95% as the scheme goes ahead. Do the Government understand those facts and are they dealing with their consideration of this case on those facts?
Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)
The chief executive of Circularity Scotland said that the Scotland DRS could work very well without glass. We recommend that we all work together to put in a unitary scheme, reminding ourselves that we still have one United Kingdom.