Immigration Bill

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 18th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, I have some amendments in this group. The first is an amendment to government Amendment 47, on the power to make an LME order. Under subsection (1) of the new clause, the court must be,

“satisfied, on the balance of probabilities, that the person has committed, or is committing, a trigger offence”.

My amendment would change the balance of probabilities to “beyond reasonable doubt”. A trigger offence relates to offences under other legislation as well as being an offence in itself so I do not understand why the civil standard of proof is thought to be appropriate. If the answer to this is that it is in effect covered by the new clause in Amendment 49, which is different, then is there not a problem in having differing standards of proof? I would be grateful for an explanation here.

Amendment 50A is an amendment to government Amendment 50. It would leave out the provision that one of the purposes of a measure—a “prohibition, restriction or requirement”—included in an LME order is bringing it,

“to the attention of persons likely to be interested in the matter”,

and other points. If this is about communication across the actors in labour market enforcement, should it not be for the director to make sure this happens? Why is it a measure in a court order? It does not seem a matter for the courts. I can see that it may be necessary, for instance, to inform employees about an order but it seems very cumbersome and not appropriate in this context.

My final amendment in the group is an amendment to government Amendment 57, which, dealing with “Offences by bodies corporate”, defines an officer of a body corporate as including a “manager”. My amendment would take that out. I am used to seeing directors, secretaries and so on as officers of a company but a manager—though I admit I will be very out of date on company law provisions—to me means something quite different and not with the same responsibilities as a director of a company.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, here again we have a series of government amendments in varying degrees of complexity. I want further information on some of these amendments in relation to other requirements and punishments relating to people who commit the offence under various Acts as listed in government Amendment 43 and other amendments in the group. Is the noble Lord saying that in all cases of alleged offences, first they will be dealt with under the Acts he referred to in his contribution and only later on will an LME be sought? Will he clarify that when he responds and also how it is all going to work?

A trigger offence is committed and action is taken, as the noble Lord outlined in his amendments. Then requirements are sought from individuals and that can be a prohibition, a restriction or a requirement for further action that will reduce the risk of the person not complying up to a maximum duration of two years. He said that this could be reduced on application by the enforcing authority. My concern is that the Government do not always have a particularly good record in ensuring that all these present requirements are enforced to the full extent. If you look at the enforcement activity for breaches of the national minimum wage, I would suggest it was not a record to be particularly proud of. Will these additional burdens make enforcement easier and more effective or not? It would be useful if the noble Lord could respond to that point as well.

My noble friend Lord Rosser made reference in a previous debate to the question of how, with increased work and cuts in resources, we can ensure that these increased powers will be properly resourced. The worry is that there will be so much stuff here that we will actually end up with poor enforcement, not better enforcement.

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their remarks. Before I move to the amendments spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, I shall comment on the points raised on the government amendments.

I was asked when the new system, which the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, described as burdensome, will be used. This is a new power to be used after the existing penalties have been applied under the existing Acts. For example, in national minimum wage regulations, the current penalty is naming and shaming. In other areas, there are civil penalties. These amendments are designed for egregious offences and repeated offences where, for example, some companies may decide to take the fine and continue to pay their workers less than the minimum wage. We have included these new powers to put an end to breaches of labour market rules. We think they are an important part of the new toolkit to address these serious matters.

Resources have been mentioned on several occasions this evening. I take the point that if these new powers are not properly enforced, there will be no point in having them. My noble friend has already committed to talk about resources and to write to noble Lords on that subject, and I will ask him to include this in his letter.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, raised the subject of electronics. He cleverly included matters which are nothing to do with this Bill. Of course, electricity is dangerous when it is incorrectly applied. The electronic means in this Bill bring it into the 21st century, but that does not mean that they should be used in all cases.

The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, talked about the four current Acts which can trigger the possibility of going into enforcement, and—again—he mentioned money. I agree it is bound to cost some money. As I said before, my noble friend will include that in his reply, if I could leave it like that for the time being.

Of course, the Director of Labour Market Enforcement will set out in his strategy how the funding that is available for the enforcement agencies should be allocated. Every year he makes an annual report. It would be very surprising, if he were underresourced, that he would not refer to that in his annual report.

As I have said to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, routine cases will continue to be dealt with using existing powers. There will be LME undertakings, and then orders will be for the more serious cases.

I move on to the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, to which I listened carefully. Amendment 47A would change the court’s power to make an LME order on application from an enforcement agency, so that the court would have to be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the person had committed or was committing a trigger offence.

We think it appropriate that a court should be able to make an LME order on application from an enforcement agency on the basis of the balance of probabilities rather than the criminal standard of proof. In these circumstances, the order is designed to prevent further offending, not as a means of sentencing the person on conviction for an offence. The amendment would limit the ability of enforcement agencies to invoke the LME order regime to secure compliance as an alternative to straightforwardly prosecuting the person for a trigger offence.

Amendment 50A would remove the court’s power to include a prohibition, restriction or requirement in an LME order on bringing the order, the circumstances in which it was made and any action by the respondent to comply, to the attention of persons likely to be interested in the matter. However, we think it right that the courts, in making an LME order, should be able to require a business to make the matter known to interested parties, and failure to do so would result in a breach of the order with the possibility of prosecution for the consequent offence. It is properly for the courts, not the Director of Labour Market Enforcement, to impose this requirement. The amendment would significantly weaken this provision, possibly enabling those subject to an LME order to conceal it from its employees, creditors and trading partners.

Amendment 57A would remove from the provisions relating to offences by bodies corporate the possibility of a manager committing the offence of failing to comply with an LME order where they have consented or connived in the offence or it was attributable to their neglect. However, it is appropriate that managers, in addition to their companies, should be held liable for the offence of failing to comply with an LME order where the offence resulted from their neglect, consent or connivance. Secondary liability provisions of this kind, including liability for managers, are commonplace in other legislation. The principle that managers can be held liable for offences committed by their company in certain circumstances is well established.

In the light of what I have said, I hope that the noble Baroness will agree not to move her amendments.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

The Minister made reference to a point I picked out about electronic communications. It is his party that decided to allow the use of electronic communications in this Bill for contacting people who may have committed some very serious offences. Another Bill, also on the Floor of this House around the same time, is denying law-abiding citizens to get their communications by electronic means. I asked the Minister if he would point out that contradiction to his friends in BIS, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. I would be grateful if he could confirm that he will do that.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am very happy to report the noble Lord’s comments to my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe. I would not necessarily call that a contradiction but I will certainly bring his remarks to her attention.

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Moved by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

72A: Clause 10, page 7, line 31, at end insert—
“( ) Regulations under subsection (2) which make provision about Scotland may only be made with the prior consent of the Scottish Parliament, and regulations which make provision about Northern Ireland may only be made with the prior consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly.”

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, this amendment and the two other amendments in both my name and that of my noble friend Lord Rosser are very straightforward and come to your Lordships’ House following the concerns raised by the report of the Constitution Committee published on 11 January. The amendments require the consent of the relevant devolved institution before regulations can be made covering their nation. The clauses that these amendments seek to amend presently allow the Secretary of State to by regulation make provisions in the other nations that would have similar effect to the provisions enforced in England—English provisions.

The Government take the view that the clause does not engage the conventions so the legislative consent Motions are not required. This has been disputed by many interested parties including the Law Society of Scotland, for example. It would be helpful for the House if the noble Lord, Lord Bates, in responding could set out carefully the reasoning behind the Government’s decision not to seek approval via the legislative consent Motion process. I am also grateful to the Constitution Committee for highlighting the differential legislative approaches adopted in respect of England and other parts of the United Kingdom and the difference in the degree of scrutiny that that implies. I for one am not convinced that this is a good way to handle these important matters. Again, I would be grateful if the noble Lord, Lord Bates, could outline why he thinks this is appropriate. I beg to move.

[Lord Bates]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for moving the amendment and giving me an opportunity to say more on the record. I also pay tribute to the work of the Constitution Committee. I know that a number of recommendations in the report will have further bearing on our discussions in Committee. However, immigration is a reserved matter and the subject matter of all these amendments relates to parts of the Bill that remain within the immigration reservation which have not been devolved or transferred to a devolved legislature.

Amendment 72A relates to the measures to prevent illegal working on licensed premises. The Bill integrates protection against illegal working into the existing licensing regime, including by adding the Home Secretary to the list of responsible authorities for the purpose of the Licensing Act, by making the prevention of illegal working an objective of the licensing regime, and by requiring licence applicants to have the requisite right to work. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, raised the questions posed by the Constitution Committee on whether legislative consent Motions will be required. The legislation has a reserved purpose. It is necessary to amend devolved licensing laws in consequence of that reserved purpose. Legislative consent from devolved legislatures is not required.

We have consulted the devolved Administrations as the provisions have been developed. Alcohol and late-night refreshment licensing legislation in Scotland and Northern Ireland is complex and, in the case of Scotland, that legislation itself is subject to prospective amendment by the Scottish Parliament. We have therefore been working with the Scottish and Northern Irish Governments on the provisions to ensure that they can operate effectively within their licensing regimes. This work is ongoing and will continue in order to make equivalent provisions in regulations, using the order-making powers in the Bill once it has come into force.

Amendment 157A relates to the provisions in the Bill about residential tenancies. These provisions restrict the access of illegal migrants to private residential accommodation in the UK and concern the reserved area of immigration control. This is not an area in which Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland have the competence to legislate and their consent is not required for the UK Government to legislate in this area. It is therefore inappropriate for the application of the residential tenancy provisions in the Bill to the rest of the UK to be subject to the consent of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. It could lead to separate immigration controls applying in different parts of the United Kingdom, which would be to no one’s advantage, and to illegal migrants moving to jurisdictions which are perceived to be more lax.

Amendment 236A relates to provisions in Part 5 which will make it easier to transfer unaccompanied migrant and asylum-seeking children from one local authority to another and enable the Secretary of State to require local authorities to co-operate in the transfer of unaccompanied migrant children from one local authority to another, should voluntary arrangements fail. Immigration is a reserved matter, and immigration legislation already provides a UK-wide framework for migrants’ access to local authority services. The dispersal of migrant children is not an area in which Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland have the competence to legislate and their consent is therefore not required for the UK Government to legislate in this area. The Government have been clear that they hope that the arrangements will remain voluntary and have been liaising with the devolved Administrations to see how this might extend to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but we must avoid the repetition of the situation we saw in Kent in the summer, so we will enforce dispersal if necessary to promote and safeguard the welfare of children. The regulations in Clause 43 are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, so they will be scrutinised by Parliament before they come into law.

I will write to the Constitution Committee shortly to respond to its helpful report in more detail. Further, the Government propose to publish the text of the licensing regulations to extend the measure to Scotland and Northern Ireland before Report. We are unable to produce regulations immediately on residential tenancies because we are working out how this will interplay with the Private Housing (Tenancies) (Scotland) Bill currently making its way through the Scottish Parliament. On the final measure in respect of children, discussions continue with the devolved Administrations.

I hope that in the light of these reassurances and the commitments I have made this evening the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment at this stage.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his helpful response. At this stage, I am very happy to withdraw my amendment. I will look at the record when it is published and reflect on it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 72A withdrawn.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Lords Chamber

Finally, Amendments 78 and 79 enable functions to be discharged jointly, as well as concurrently, with economic prosperity boards.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I will contain my remarks largely to the amendments of my noble friend Lord Beecham. Regarding some of the amendments that the Minister has mentioned, it is fair to say that we welcome the fact that the Commons has accepted the points raised here by noble Lords, but we regret that some have not been agreed. I notice that the Minister said that it is up to local areas to agree whether they want to have mayors. That is correct but, standing here now, I think of the situation that Bristol finds itself in. It is uniquely, except for London, unable to decide that it does not want to have a mayor any more. We have discussed that issue before and it is regrettable.

I also find it hard to accept that a Government who talk about devolution and localism should then seek to impose structures, not allowing an authority to decide its own best form of governance. Is that really the right way forward? One of the problems with the Government’s handling of these matters is in not always allowing a local authority to decide the proper mechanism for its area.

My noble friend Lord Beecham has tabled a number of amendments relating to Commons Amendment 31, which was put into the Bill very late in the day during consideration on Report in the other place. It is fair to say that this provision took local government by surprise. Considerable concern has been expressed about the aim to give districts and counties the right to request a governance change without regard to the other authority. It surely must be that seeking agreement by working in collaboration is the best way forward. I note what the Minister said about trying to get consensus but that is why my noble friend Lord Beecham has tabled his amendments. They are about ensuring that we get consensus on these things.

It would be helpful if the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, could explain further how the government amendments came about. I know that she made reference to Mr Clive Betts, and I am conscious that the amendment came from him, but we want to know a bit more about the discussions that took place, including those with local government. Government Amendment 31 leaves too much to chance, which is why my noble friend seeks to ensure a more collaborative process.

The Minister explained the situation but it is fair to say that her explanation, although clear, was quite complicated. If it is complicated for this House, what is it going to be like on the ground? It will be even more complicated. Transport is now delivered by one area and education by another. We then have directly elected mayors and PCCs, with the possibility of the fire and rescue service also being taken over. This seems to me a recipe not for good governance but for confusion and a lack of democratic accountability.

I know the east Midlands very well, as I worked there for about 15 years. Both Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire are very well-run authorities. It has not come from these councils or authorities to have this provision; it has clearly come from a bit further north in Sheffield. I see no desire among local residents there to have different arrangements. As your Lordships will know, both counties have a proud history. Derby and Nottingham left them and are now unitary authorities. They are both large rural areas with large towns. They have a proud mining history but are also a centre for new start-up businesses and for more established businesses such as—

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

Will the noble Lord give way? I am a former leader of Sheffield City Council and a resident of the city. Has the noble Lord spoken to the leaders of Chesterfield and Bassetlaw councils, where people may have a different view to the one he has just expressed?

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I have not spoken to the leaders of Chesterfield or Bassetlaw councils but I have spoken to the leaders of Derbyshire County Council and Nottinghamshire County Council. It is an area I know quite well, but I accept we are not going to agree on all our points.

This is also an area of considerable natural beauty with a thriving tourism industry. I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could talk about the devolution deal for Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire. Discussions are taking place with those councils, but there are concerns. They are worried that any deal there will be potentially undermined by having further discussions about other councils leaving that area. This is not a good way of going forward.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, there are advantages and disadvantages when this House considers a Bill in advance of the House of Commons. The advantages are that we can take an early view of proposals and make suggestions for the other place to consider. Among the disadvantages is that we can be asked to consider a very large number of amendments from the Government at a very late stage. This afternoon, we have 87 government amendments, of which 59 are in this group alone. This adds to the complexity and means that we have to be very careful in agreeing to amendments, as we have not had fuller consideration of them in Committee.

That said, in many cases, the amendments proposed by the Government improve the Bill. They clarify and enable, and they promote localism. We will shortly, I hope, have a further discussion about Amendments 31A and 36A, but the Minister has moved that we agree with Amendments 1 to 18 at this stage, and I want to say one or two things about the overall content and context of the amendments under discussion. The promotion of localism has to be a partnership if it is to be successful, which I think is what the Minister has said. For that reason, the additional powers now being proposed for the Secretary of State need to be used very sparingly, and I hope we will hear from the Minister further confirmation as the afternoon progresses that this is indeed the Government’s intention. In that context, Amendments 31, 31A, 36 and 36A are extremely important, and I support the amendments which will be moved later this afternoon by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham.

We have also received the advice of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which published its comments on 22 December. That committee rightly pointed out that when we considered the Bill in the summer, the Government gave assurances that the powers of the Secretary of State over brokering bespoke deals would be constrained by the need for all councils in a given area to consent. That requirement no longer has to apply, at least until March 2019.

On these Benches we have always been strong advocates of localism and the further devolution of powers to local authorities or combinations of them. But partnership and consent matter if devolution is to work. For that reason, I hope that we will hear assurances from the Minister that the powers will be used very sparingly, that they will only be used in circumstances that promote effective localism and that the procedural guarantees sought by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, will be followed so that local authorities are encouraged to work collaboratively together.

I have two further points. The Minister referred to the fact that there will be an annual report. I am very pleased about that in the context of all our debates in Committee and on Report. Although not all of the amendments proposed by your Lordships’ House were agreed in the other place, the annual report will give a focus for clarifying and sharing what has happened, what good practice has been promoted and which pilots have proved successful. It is very important that that does not stay in Whitehall with Ministers but is shared with the whole country. I hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that not only will that annual report be issued but this House will have the opportunity to debate it.

The second issue I want to draw attention to from the Minister’s opening speech is her use of the words strong governance. She said that an elected mayor model is a model for strong governance, so that the public know where responsibilities lie. I have expressed doubts about the single-leader model and the ability of a single person to do so many things—perhaps, to be the police and crime commissioner or to take on responsibility through the combined authority structure for fire and rescue. If NHS matters or responsibility for children’s services are to be devolved to a combined authority level, it seems difficult for one person to do so very much and remain democratically accountable. I can hear the Minister’s reply, which will be that those matters will then be devolved to other leaders within the combined authority. We have had these debates before in the summer. Of course, we do not have elected mayors yet in most places and will not for the next two or three years, but it will be very important to review how they are performing as part of the annual report.

I have two concerns about this in a democratic sense. One is that councillors of constituent authorities will know less and less about what is actually happening in their areas because more and more decisions will effectively be centralised. Secondly, the general public may not understand who will be responsible for a decision and where it should be challenged if they do not agree with it. Reviewing that constantly seems very important.

That is all I want to say at this stage. I may say a bit more when the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, moves his amendments to Amendments 31 and 36 but, for the moment, I think that there is a different mood in England now about devolution. There are problems and, in some places, occasional conflicts, but, in the main, there is a willingness to accept devolved powers from Whitehall and Westminster—indeed, a very strong desire to do so. The moves of the previous Government and this one have demonstrated that the appetite is there for those devolved powers to be granted.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I expect a very quick timescale, given that some devolution deals have already been done. Time would be of the essence in getting these matters through, so I would expect the consultation process and the regulations to be dealt with fairly quickly. That is imperative, given that devolution deals have been done with different places. I hope that that is good enough for him.

The noble Lord also asked me about Amendment 34. The regulations will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure and the amendment makes clear exactly what procedures can be fast-tracked. These include changes to electoral arrangements but the Boundary Commission’s responsibilities remain unchanged. I think we went through that yesterday but I am very happy to confirm that, as it is a very important point.

The noble Lord also asked me whether the Government are trying to reorganise local government. The answer is no. We are here to assist where local government wants to reorganise itself in terms of unitarisation. He also asked whether we are taking a Henry Ford approach. I hope that Cornwall shows that we are not. It will be up to local authorities to come forward with their proposals for their areas in due course.

I have been passed a note which says that—if I can read the writing—regarding business rates, “future legislation” means primary legislation, which we will bring forward as parliamentary time allows. I hope that I have satisfied noble Lords in all the questions that they have raised.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

Perhaps the noble Baroness could say a bit more. Regarding my noble friend’s Amendment 31C, I agree that we should move forward on a basis of consensus. I also agree that no council should have a veto. I accept that entirely, as it would just stop things happening. However, that is why my noble friend’s amendment says that either council may make a referral to the Secretary of State. His intention is to avoid that happening; equally, his intention is to get consensus where we can. Can she say why she will not accept that amendment?

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[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, I want to speak briefly—

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords—

[Lord Tyler]

I think that my friend here, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, would like to follow me. He might like to react to what I have to say.

This afternoon the Minister, and indeed others, seem to be again saying, “Yes, one day this will happen but not now”. That is a position which I understand—it is a perfectly reasonable position—but it cannot be repeated and repeated without the Government coming forward and saying when and how. On 18 November, I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, put it very succinctly when he said:

“There may come a time for change, when we lower the age to 16. There may be a debate to be had. This is not the moment for that debate”.—[Official Report, 18/11/15; col. 179.]

When is it going to be the time for that debate? This is the doctrine of unripe time, which I think I am right in saying that Sir Humphrey was always quoting to Jim Hacker in “Yes Minister”. Whenever they wanted to avoid taking a decision they would say, “We’ll get to it one day. Yes, of course it’ll be important”. But it is not going to be sufficient simply to put this off for ever.

The Prime Minister himself has said, as we understand it, to the leader of the Conservatives in the Holyrood Parliament that, yes, there will be an opportunity for the full debate which I think the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and I will both want to contribute to. When are we going to have that debate? We cannot go on for ever leaving this on the side, as if it somehow does not matter that one part of the United Kingdom adjoining another has a completely different franchise, as my noble friend Lord Purvis said. If this is the United Kingdom, the franchise should be consistent across the United Kingdom.

There is also an important issue here about the way in which we discuss these issues in this House. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, seems to think that it is inappropriate for this House to have any views whatever about elections. I dispute that. During my whole period in this House, we have been able to improve the law in relation to elections in a more dispassionate way than when I was a Member of the other place. It has a special interest in the electoral arrangements, in the Representation of the People Acts and so on. This House has a proper responsibility, a disinterest, which is extremely relevant to important questions about the franchise and the way in which our democracy works. If we give that up it will be an important loss of responsibility and role for this House, and I hope that we will not go down that track. In response, I trust that the Minister will be able to tell us, as the Prime Minister has hinted to his colleagues in the Holyrood Parliament, that there will be an opportunity for the wider debate that Ministers keep telling us is timely and should be happening. If she cannot tell us that, then we are right to make progress in this Bill and move in this direction.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, while I have every sympathy with the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, I should say right at the outset that if the amendment is pressed to a vote, noble Lords on these Benches will abstain.

My party fought the general election last year on a commitment to bring forward legislation to enable 16 and 17 year-olds to vote. We have, on numerous occasions, had debates, asked questions, moved Motions and won votes to advance the cause, but it has fallen on deaf ears on the government Benches. They have shown not the slightest interest in considering this change and I have come to the conclusion that it will probably take a Government of a different political persuasion to bring it about.

Not even the enthusiastic support of Ruth Davidson MSP, the leader of the Tory party in Scotland, or of the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, the former leader, has made any difference at all to the government Benches. We will continue to press the case at the appropriate time—the worst thing that the Government have done of course is to deny 16 and 17 year-olds a vote in the referendum on the European Union. The Government and the House of Commons have rejected this proposal repeatedly.

We are a revising Chamber. The elected Commons has made a decision, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, and I do not intend to challenge it further on this occasion. In taking this decision, I am also mindful of the advice from the Electoral Commission about making decisions in a timely manner and the extra work that would be involved in the short space of time before the elections.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

Before the noble Lord sits on his hands, is his position on this for the Official Opposition purely tactical? Is it their principled position that 16 and 17 year-olds should have the opportunity to elect local government representatives whenever this Parliament—both Houses, including this House—has an opportunity to give it to them, or is it purely tactical given the weakness of the Official Opposition?

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

We have repeatedly supported the idea of votes for 16 and 17 year-olds. I think noble Lords will find that the position of the noble Lord today is a tactical one.

[Lord Beecham]

When it comes to sitting on their hands, few better exponents of that philosophy could be found than those on the Liberal Democrat Benches. They sat on their hands and colluded with the enormous damage inflicted on local government and elsewhere for five years. They are not in any position to lecture us about anything around consistency. Furthermore, it is quite clear that the Government’s unfortunate position on this has been confirmed on three or four occasions in votes at the other end. We are not in a position to change that. Noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Benches know that it will not change. This is gesture politics of a typical kind and we ought to have nothing whatever to do with it. When we get a change of Government, we will see a change in the voting age, not only for local authority elections but for parliamentary elections, European elections and any future referendums.

Immigration Bill

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I want an immigration system that is fair and just to British citizens and those who want to come here, play by the rules and make a contribution to our society. That is why, in my opinion, in many parts the Bill is unhelpful, unjust, unfair and risks many unintended consequences that make life even more difficult for very vulnerable people. My noble friend Lord Rosser made clear at the start of his speech our concern at many aspects of the Bill.

There are, of course, parts of the Bill we welcome, as well as parts we have serious concerns about, but before focusing on its provisions, it is worth putting on record how much this country has benefited from immigration. Look at one institution, our NHS, which would be in considerable difficulty if it were not for the immigrants who have come to this country to provide the services that we rely on. We heard about that in the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire.

How many of your Lordships are immigrants yourselves, or the children or grandchildren of immigrants? Quite a large number, I expect. I am the eldest son of immigrants. My parents came here from Ireland in the 1950s to find work. They played by the rules and worked hard for their whole working lives. The noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, made similar points when he talked about his late mother coming from the west of Ireland. I can tell him that the signs saying, “No Blacks, no Irish”, were in London as well. In 2014, the Centre for Research and Analysis of Migration, when looking at the fiscal effects of immigration on the UK, estimated that migrants contributed about £25 billion to the economy between 2001 and 2011.

Part 1 of the Bill is about tackling illegal working and preventing the exploitation of workers. We support the creation of a director of labour market enforcement, which builds on the work of the previous Labour Government through initiatives such as the Gangmasters Licensing Authority. The illegal labour market can have a very detrimental effect on the pay and conditions of legally employed workers, and a very damaging one on reputable businesses that are playing by the rules. However, for this measure to be effective, considerably greater action will need to be taken on enforcement, because if powers are not used they will have little or no effect.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Horam, that it is a matter of great concern how few prosecutions there have been on the Government’s watch of employers who pay workers below the minimum wage. The proper enforcement of workers’ rights is what is needed, and if the new arrangement and powers will take the matter forward and ensure effective enforcement, that is good news. People working for tips or being paid below the minimum wage is to our mind not acceptable in modern Britain. When he responds the debate, it would be helpful if the noble Lord, Lord Bates, said more about protecting and supporting legally employed workers and businesses that play by the rules. My noble friend Lord Rosser made clear our concern about criminalising illegal workers, as did many other noble Lords today.

Part 2 concerns access to services. We will want to probe further during Committee the measures dealing with driving licences and access to bank accounts. There is, however, much greater concern about the right to rent scheme and the extension of sanctions to be imposed on landlords. Asking landlords to carry out reasonable checks of identity documents, as they already do, is perfectly acceptable, but it must be understood that landlords are not immigration officers. How do they go about spotting if a document is forged? How do they read and understand a document in another language? What support will the Government give landlords to get this right? The punishment of up to and including five years’ imprisonment for committing such offences is certainly very tough.

There is also concern that by not striking the right balance, the Government run the risk of landlords just deciding to play it safe and renting only to people with British passports, thereby creating a whole new area of discrimination and injustice, whereby people with foreign names, foreign paperwork or foreign passports are routinely refused accommodation. I fully concur with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, in this respect. I am sure that the Minister will say that that was not his intention. I know the Minister and I am confident that it was not, but I think he and the Government are going to have to clarify this part of the Bill; otherwise, there could be far-reaching and unintended consequences that cannot go unchallenged in your Lordships’ House. This issue was also referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick.

The Residential Landlords Association has provided a very helpful briefing for this Second Reading debate. It has suggested an amendment making it clear that a landlord would not be committing a criminal offence if, first, they had done everything reasonably possible to verify the status of the tenant and, secondly, they were in the process, within the 28-day window, of evicting a tenant whom they had been notified did not have the right to rent. Will the Minister comment on this proposal when he responds?

Part 3 of the Bill concerns the expansion of the powers of immigration officers. We will probe and explore these powers further during the passage of the Bill, but we support the notion that immigration officers need to have adequate powers to enable them to undertake their duties effectively and to seize evidence that may relate to non-immigration offences. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, made a very powerful point about police stopping suspected overstayers and the damage that can do to race relations. We surely do not want to go back to that.

One of the most troubling sections of the Bill is Part 4, which gives considerable new powers to the Home Office. It includes a major extension of the “deport first, appeal later” provisions for foreign national offenders in all human rights claims. Will the Minister tell the House why we should give any organisation such powers, when 50% of its initial decisions in immigration matters are found to be wrong? The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, also referred to this issue. What is the current backlog of immigration cases that the department is struggling to cope with? Surely the solution lies in improving the decision-making process in the first place, so that the original decision is more likely to be correct and the individuals concerned can be present at their own timely appeal. My noble friend Lady Kennedy of the Shaws, who has considerable knowledge and experience of this area of law, set out much more eloquently than I can the difficulties and problems that the “deport first, appeal later” provisions could present.

Part 5 of the Bill makes a number of changes to the way local authorities assess and provide accommodation and subsistence support for destitute families with immigration status. This is one of the most damaging parts of the Bill, and I very much hope that the Government will listen to the wise words of noble Lords and put in place proper provision for families. The Government clearly attempted to make some movement on this during the Commons’ consideration of the Bill, but they have not in any way gone far enough. I agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said about how families are treated. The House needs much greater clarity regarding what is proposed. Vulnerable people need proper protection, and the proposals fall far short of that. Almost every week, there are reports in the media of vulnerable people being abused and exploited at the hands of criminals, and firm action needs to be taken. That equally applies to vulnerable people whose immigration status may not be in order; while they are in the United Kingdom, people deserve the protection of the law no matter what their status. I agree with my noble friend Lord Dubs, the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, and others that the Bill will leave families destitute. I join with the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, in urging the Minister to use his considerable skills to persuade his colleagues of the need to change this part of the Bill.

Part 6 of the Bill deals with border security and would introduce a civil penalty regime to be applied to airlines and port operators who allow passengers to disembark without being presented to immigration control officers. It also gives certain immigration officers powers that can be used in UK territorial waters. Again, I say to the Minister that the proper resourcing of our borders could make significant inroads into some of the problems the Bill tries to address, but in a manner that makes life difficult for some very vulnerable people and is not based on any sound evidence or evaluation of the problem and its possible solutions. I do not believe that the Government have proper control of our borders, particularly at ports, and this problem needs to be addressed. This Bill has failed to do that.

The point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, about the effects of the Government’s policy in the education sector, relates to one of the most worrying parts of the Bill. It exposed the fact that the policies of different government departments are at odds with each other and are failing our country and damaging our reputation abroad.

Part 7 of the Bill sets out a requirement for public sector workers in customer-facing roles to be able to speak fluent English. It would be useful if the Minister set out examples of where this has been a problem. I fully accept that speaking fluent English in a customer-facing role is a sensible requirement. Can the Minister also tell us what protections there will be for people against spurious complaints that are made just because someone does not like their accent or the colour of their skin? I fully endorse the point made by my noble friend Lady Lister, who asked for confirmation that those whose first language is British sign language will not be discriminated against in this respect.

In conclusion, the Bill is not fit for purpose in many respects. While there are some parts of it that we can support, large parts of it are not grounded in evidence and risk making the situation worse, not better. It would have been much better if the Bill had been put through a rigorous pre-legislative scrutiny process, as happened with the Modern Slavery Bill and is presently happening with the Draft Investigatory Powers Bill. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark made a similar point when he asked why there had been no White Paper to enable debate and discussion to take place. I fully concur with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, who contrasted the way this Bill has reached your Lordships’ House with the way the Modern Slavery Bill reached us. In this legislative area of government, knee-jerk reactions should not be allowed to rule.

Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Temporary Class Drug) (No. 3) Order 2015

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Colwyn (Con)]

My Lords, my remarks will be brief. I ask my noble friend, who has responsibility for steering the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Temporary Class Drug) (No. 3) Order 2015 through your Lordships’ House, whether the Government have kept to their undertaking to ensure that the Psychoactive Substances Bill does not infringe the rights of UK herbal practitioners to supply unlicensed herbal medicines, as permitted under paragraphs (2), (6) and (9) of Regulation 3 of the Human Medicines Regulations 2012, No. 1916, dated 14 August 2012.

In an answer to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in July this year, my noble friend wrote:

“The Bill team is working with the … (Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulation Agency) to make sure that the Bill does not criminalise activities in relation to medicinal products which are currently lawful under medicines legislation. This includes the activity that Michael McIntyre refers to—namely herbal medicines that do not hold a … (Traditional Herbal Registration) but are prescribed by herbal practitioners on a named patient basis”.

I ask my noble friend whether the current draft of the Bill ensures the continued rights of UK herbalists to supply unlicensed herbal medicines on a named-patient basis, as he promised. If the legal highs Bill were enacted without making provision for herbal practitioners, it would mean that their work was criminalised, which of course would be an unmitigated disaster.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the order before the House. As the noble Lord, Lord Bates, said, it would be in effect for a maximum of 12 months, by which time a decision would be made on whether MPA should be subject to a permanent ban. I shall not attempt to pronounce the name in full but will stick with the abbreviation. I am sure that the noble Lord will come back on the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn.

I echo the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, in respect of the work, and the walks, that the noble Lord does in the recesses. I will leave it there.

[Lord Bates]

I am very grateful. I should perhaps explain to the House that the reason for my slight struggle was that I was not only trying to pronounce those words but, at the same time, was feeling the symptoms that I was reading out of an abnormally fast heart rate, anxiety, a panic attack, perspiration, headaches and nausea. My inability to pronounce the medical terms was due to my having to pause slightly to compose myself. I am grateful for the patience of the House.

I shall deal with where we are with the Psychoactive Substances Bill. We expect the Bill to reach its Commons Report stage and Third Reading early in the new year, and I hope noble Lords’ consideration of Commons amendments will follow shortly after that. Explanatory notes on the Commons amendments will be published in the usual way once the Bill leaves the Commons. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, among others, will have seen letters from the Policing Minister detailing the government amendments made at the Commons Committee stage.

Schedule 1 to the Bill lists substances exempted from the scope of the Bill. Medicinal products as defined by the Human Medicines Regulations 2012 are included in that list. The definition of medical products, as in regulation, includes herbal medicines. Therefore, herbal medicines covered by the regulations are excluded from the scope of that Bill. I hope that offers some reassurance to my noble friend Lord Colwyn and clarifies the communication that I had with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt.

The Chief Whip is here, so I need to be on my best behaviour, but let me just say that I have no plans to engage in further walks over the Christmas period. I will be back on duty for the Immigration Bill on 11 January as required. However, I am very grateful for the kind words that have been said. We heard about the tremendous work being done by many charitable bodies this Christmas. I was thinking in particular of the Red Cross walk this year, which managed to raise more than £90,000 for its work in China and the UK. It is a tremendous privilege for us all, I know, to do anything that we can to support the many people who at times such as this are helping and caring for those in greatest need in our country and on our planet.

Finally, the Bill will go through Report and Third Reading early in the new year. That completes the business before us and I commend the order to the House. I join others in wishing noble Lords on all sides of the House a very merry Christmas.

Syrian Refugees: Settlement in the UK

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 7th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I read that report, which I think is good. We are looking at it and it raises a number of issues. Under the unaccompanied asylum-seeking children scheme—UASC—there is an additional level of guidance from the Department for Education, and the Minister for Children and Families, Edward Timpson, has lead responsibility for it. Also, we cannot get away from the fact that although the Home Office might have such responsibility under the Children Act 1989, local authorities have the statutory duty of care for any children under their care, whether or not they are asylum seekers.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister tell us exactly why progress has been so slow in getting these refugees to the UK, and what work has been done with the UNHCR in organising migration with the refugee community to get the refugees here?

[Lord Bates]

It is a slow process because we are undertaking the vetting and prioritising procedure in the camps in Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey with the UNHCR. The UNHCR undertakes its checks, as then does the Home Office. It is a lengthier process at that end, but the whole purpose of the vulnerable persons scheme is that, once they are given leave to remain or international protection, they come to this country and do not have to go through any such process. They have accommodation to go to, they have schools, hospitals and medical care, and benefits if they need them. Therefore, although it is taking slightly longer at that end, we hope that that will shorten the process when they actually arrive here.

Equipment Interference (Code of Practice) Order 2015

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 7th December 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the proposals, which were conscientiously and effectively explained by the Minister. I recollect him in another guise in another place, where he practised, to a degree, the black arts and would have been pleased by a depleted Committee on a Monday when many Members are travelling.

I rise to support the measures and to emphasise a truth with regard to measures such as these. The existence of secret services in a parliamentary democracy always requires debate and scrutiny, which is why we are in Committee this afternoon. We debate and argue, at length, sometimes, as is our duty. We need our secret services. It was possible for our sovereign to attend the 2012 Olympic Games in total safety because of the successful, thorough and patriotic work of our secret services and the allied services alongside them. They always aim to prevent terrorism and to fight it by all means. Praise should go to the then director of MI5, Jonathan Evans—now the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Weardale—and the many people in other services alongside him in that successful approach to the 2012 Olympic Games.

To give noble Lords a little history, I had the honour of chairing the Standing Committee in another place that gave legitimacy and birth to the Intelligence and Security Committee, which is referred to in the measures before us. It was necessary to bring the security services into the public domain because of a hearing in the Strasbourg court. My constituent, when I was in another place, required the legislation. That case brought forward the legislation that brought into being the IS Committee. Later, having taken the chair for that legislation, the late John Smith nominated me to join the Intelligence and Security Committee as a founder member. For something like 10 years I found myself travelling to Washington, Ottawa and European capitals as a member of that committee. As a result of those experiences, I see the relevance of what the Minister has put to this Committee, and I offer it my modest support.

Noble Lords may know that the witnesses at that IS Committee were former Prime Ministers, former Foreign Secretaries, even the onetime archivist of the KGB, many Permanent Secretaries and directors of the secret services. The committee I served on was very ably chaired by the noble Lord, Lord King, who in another place was Tom King MP. Bringing these matters up to date, I note that there was a previous Joint Committee of both Houses that considered legislation not dissimilar from some of the measures referred to by the Minister. I served on that Joint Committee and I noted the evidence given, firmly but politely, by the Home Secretary.

I emphasise that the orders before us are very necessary but they will need to be stringently and carefully examined and debated from time to time, and that is the process in which we are engaged today. I heard the Minister talking about stringent conditions. With regard to the investigatory powers, members of the Joint Committee were able to meet the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, the then assistant commissioner, Cressida Dick, and the considerable, able and conscientious team working under their leadership at the offices on the other side of the Thames. I have no doubt whatever that the conditions are stringent and it was right that the Minister made that point.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, the orders before us today are important. They are tools to obtain evidence of suspected wrongdoing. I can tell the noble Lord that the Opposition support both orders, although we have some concerns. There has to be a balance between the scope of the powers exercised by the state and the rights of individuals who are subject to the exercise of those powers.

The noble Lord will, I am sure, be aware of the concerns raised by the Bar Council in relation to legal privilege. It would be helpful if he could say something about the safeguards against interference with privileged communications and, in particular, how the equipment interference order could result in the acquisition of matters subject to legal privilege, as well as what steps are being taken to mitigate such a risk. What I am looking for today from the noble Lord, Lord Bates, is more reassurance that the balance has been properly fixed. Clearly, technology is moving very fast and I am supportive of the Government ensuring, on the one hand, that the powers are appropriate and up to date and, on the other, that the procedures are properly codified and people’s rights are respected. I also understand that the orders are likely to be in force for only a short time, as of course we will be having the new Bill, which has to be on the statute book by the end of next year.

It would be helpful if the noble Lord could explain to the Committee a bit more about the safeguards that are in place, particularly in relation to the interception of communications code. Can he also say a bit more about the equipment interference code? As he said, it confers no new powers but simply sets out those powers and the safeguards that are in place. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, suggests that new powers are being conferred, so the comments of the two noble Lords contrast somewhat. Therefore, we need to be clear about whether there are new powers in this code. If the noble Lord says that there are not, can he set out for the Committee why he believes that he is correct and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, is wrong in that respect? Having said that, the Opposition support the orders.

[Lord Bates]

First, scheduling business is a matter entirely in the inscrutable hands of the Whips’ Office and usual channels. The Home Office has no influence on that. I take it that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, was referring to the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, who plays a very important role in the pre-legislative scrutiny of the investigatory powers Bill at present. Of course, we appreciate his expertise in this area. I am sure he will bring that fully to bear when the Bill comes before your Lordships’ House later. Let me try to deal with some of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, raised.

One was: why choose to do this now when we have legislation going through? I alluded to part of the reason in my opening speech, relating to current or recent cases that have gone through the Investigatory Powers Tribunal service. There is always a balance to be struck there. The legislation proposed is just that: it is proposed—it is not on the statute book. We need to make sure that the powers are in place appropriately and that the code is kept up to date for the purposes of activities that happen in the interim.

That is an important element as well, which I would convey through the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, back to the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger. Given the noble Lord’s strong interest in these areas, I assume he would welcome these codes of practice being kept up to date in the light of case law going through the tribunal and, in particular, in relation to equipment interference. Effectively, there are now 18 pages of guidance that were previously not in the public domain. Those can now be scrutinised and reviewed. They are there to be reviewed by the committee currently sitting, should it so wish. All the way through this process with investigatory powers legislation, we are trying to make sure, at the same time, that the security services have the tools they need to do their job and that we keep the public on our side in feeling that the powers exercised—which are intrusive in certain cases—are necessary and proportionate.

I pay tribute to the work of the noble Lord, Lord Jones, on the Intelligence and Security Committee in the other place. He knows all too well about the work going on. In that context, he will be aware that the powers we are talking about are not notional or academic. Elements of investigatory powers are deployed in response to the majority of serious and organised crime, such as the seven terrorist acts over the past year prevented by the security services. I certainly join the noble Lord in paying tribute to the work those services do to keep us safe.

I shall deal with some of the other issues raised. I will come back to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, that in a sense our argument is that there is nothing new here and, at the same time, we are introducing some new measures. I will be able to tell him what is new in this.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked if, before now, it was an offence under the Computer Misuse Act to interfere with equipment. The answer is no. The powers to undertake equipment interference are contained in the Intelligence Services Act 1994 and the Police Act 1997, so we do not believe that at any point the police or security services have operated outside their powers. The noble Lord asked about the number of thematic equipment interference warrants that have been requested. That information is not collected centrally at present. Of course, we also have as part of the investigatory powers a quite sophisticated system of commissioners who oversee these processes, to whom those who feel that their rights have been trespassed on wrongly can go to seek redress—either directly through the commissioner or through the tribunal. Of course, that happens.

Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Codes of Practice) (Revision of Code E) Order 2015

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 7th December 2015 Grand Committee

[Viscount Simon (Lab)]

My Lords, first, would I be right in thinking that the only way one can check the records for a first-time offence is via the police radio? Secondly, on cannabis, how will the police establish whether it is first-time use? Otherwise, I support this order.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, this order, which the Opposition support, makes important changes by excluding four offences from the code, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Bates, in his opening remarks. It will allow officers to deal with the offence at the scene of the crime rather than by bringing people to the station, if the officer deems that to be the correct course of action. Will the noble Lord confirm whether this has been piloted? If so, why have we not waited until we have the results of those pilots? I would be interested to find out about that.

Will the Minister tell us a bit more about why these four offences were selected and which offences were not selected? I know the Minister said there was a review, but it would be interesting to know the thinking on that.

Finally, will the Minister comment on the pilot scheme on body-worn cameras which was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick? In future, concerns about the lack of a definitive record may be resolved by the record on camera at the scene of the offence. However, we fully support the order.

Counterterrorism: Communities

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Thursday 26th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Mobarik, on securing this Question for Short Debate.

All of us were appalled at what we witnessed in Paris recently. We stand in solidarity with the French people and fully support the British Government and the full remit of the security services in their efforts to assist the French authorities and ensure that we are protected here in Britain.

The noble Baroness’s Question is important because it is about the fostering of good community links and the celebration of difference. It is also about being a multiracial, multifaith democracy where you can live in freedom, make a contribution to your community and be respected for who you are, no matter what the colour of your skin is or which faith you are of, including being of no faith. The noble Baroness was right to talk about all of us speaking out against intolerance and having a duty to understand different points of view. By coming together we will face down extremism wherever it comes from, be it neo-Nazism, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism or Islamist extremism. Strong institutions in the public and voluntary sectors and in civil society in general are vital in challenging extremism in all forms and preventing people being drawn into terrorism. My noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey was right when he spoke of the need for the police and others to work with communities on a day-to-day basis to build confidence and not just to appear when information is needed.

Faith groups provide vital leadership in combating extremism, promoting dialogue between different groups and bringing people together. I recall the excellent work undertaken by Reverend Graham Shaw at St Paul’s in Walworth when I was a councillor in Southwark many years ago. As someone brought up in the Catholic faith, I can say I saw first-hand the excellent work that the Church of England and Reverend Shaw undertook in bringing the community together and challenging attitudes. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Rochester referred to the work that he had undertaken over many years, which had led to fruitful engagement. I have been impressed by the work of the Inter Faith Network, which works to advance public knowledge, the mutual understanding of different faith communities and the promotion of good relations between people of different faiths in the country at national and local level.

Faith groups themselves need good governance programmes to develop resilience to extremism and deliver proper engagement with young people. It will be helpful to the House if the Minister can explain the work that the Government are doing in this area to support faith communities, as they are a vital part of an overall plan to fight against terrorism and extremism. What specific support did the Government give in Inter Faith Week, which was held last week?

Schools are a focal point in our communities where young people come together to learn, and they must be places where good values are in evidence. The school community can help to build a strong and safe wider community that protects vulnerable people. There have been examples where this has not been the case, and we must be on guard against the influence of extremists in future. Does the Minister believe that we have got the balance right in protecting young people at school, or is there possibly more work that needs to be done?

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Mobarik, that social media has been an area where extremist views have grown. The Government must take firm action there.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, when she said that the depiction of the Muslim community by some national newspapers was wrong, untrue and unhelpful in bringing communities together and making us all safer. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Mobarik, that coming from an Irish Catholic family and growing up in London in the 1970s brought its own challenges. I thank the noble Baroness for bringing this Question before the House for debate today.

Modern Slavery Act 2015

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 26th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

The noble Lord will be aware that, last week, the Anti-slavery Commissioner produced his report—his strategy document—as he was required to do under the Act. He has set a very clear measure as to where he is focusing: the identification of victims, and the need to encourage prosecutions. As a former police officer, he is well placed to do that. In a lot of cases, it is not a resource question; it is an issue of will and intelligence to identify those people who are at risk to ensure that the perpetrators are tackled and those who are victims are helped.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I just want to say that I should have declared that I am a local councillor when I asked my Question earlier on. I apologise and declare it now.

Advertising of Prostitution (Prohibition) Bill [HL]

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Friday 23rd October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, first, like other noble Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich, on securing a Second Reading of his Bill. He raises a serious issue with his Bill before your Lordships’ House today. It proposes to make it an offence to publish, distribute or cause to be published or distributed advertisements which advertise a brothel or the services of a prostitute, and thereby deals with an anomaly, as the noble Lord himself outlined. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby is right to say that allowing advertising gives the appearance of normalising this activity, which is a front for organised crime. The noble Lord’s Bill provides a defence in cases where the publisher was not aware and had no reason to suspect that an advertisement related to a brothel or the services of a prostitute.

The consequences for communities and people from the effects of prostitution can be devastating: violence, extreme violence, and even people being murdered, as we see all too often in the media. One recalls the terrible events in Bradford. The right reverend Prelate rightly talked about the vulnerable women who are drawn into this trade and are terribly exploited. People who are trafficked and effectively become slaves are treated utterly appallingly. The noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich, made reference to that, as did the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, who talked about traffickers and people whom she had visited in Europe.

People involved in prostitution have serious problems with drugs and alcohol abuse, and their lives are utterly destroyed. As we have heard today, more than 50% of the people in this trade are coerced into it. I agree with the comments of my noble friend Lady Gale, who outlined the despair of women who work as prostitutes and said how important it is to develop international obligations. In addition, local communities can be destroyed by the effects of prostitution. There is important work to be done by various agencies to tackle its causes and effects. People who are abused and exploited need help and support from health, welfare and other organisations in order to exit prostitution. There needs to be a partnership approach with local authorities and non-statutory agencies to help people to find a route out.

In recent years, there has been a slight increase in the number of prosecutions of those who control prostitution. That is welcome but much more needs to be done. The noble Lord’s proposal is specific and focuses on advertising the trade. He was clear in stating that it is all about violence. The Bill—which I hope will progress further—seeks to disrupt these activities by making it an offence to advertise such services. This idea has been put forward before but no progress has been made. Certainly as far back as 2010 my right honourable friend in the other place Harriet Harman suggested a similar approach, and other colleagues and other campaigns have also called for action along similar lines.

I want to make a few general remarks about how we handle Private Members’ Bills, of which this is the third today. We will give this Bill a Second Reading and then it will be moved that it be committed to a Committee of the Whole House. Last year, I said to the Clerk of the Parliaments, “We have all these Private Members’ Bills. They are really good Bills putting forward really good ideas but they often go no further than Second Reading. Why can’t they go into Grand Committee, as other Bills do?”. I was told that it is perfectly possible for that to happen. Therefore, I ask the Minister and the government Whip to take that suggestion back to the Chief Whip for discussion. I think that we could make much more progress on these Bills if we had a sitting in the Moses Room, looking at the details in Committee. We are missing an opportunity there.

I again congratulate the noble Lord, Lord McColl, on putting this issue before the House today. He is seeking to disrupt the activities of the people who control the trade and deal in violence, abuse and misery. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Bates, will give the noble Lord a positive response, as it would be good to see the Bill make further progress in your Lordships’ House.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, I join all other noble Lords in paying tribute to my noble friend Lord McColl. As someone who is passionate and informed in trying to improve and reform our society, he epitomises all that is good about this House. Of course, he is the principal architect of the Modern Slavery Act, which has now come into effect. As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby rightly observed, those who are trafficked are often trafficked in connection with prostitution, and therefore that legislation will be effective in tackling this problem.

Before I come to the details of the Bill, I want to set out what the Government are doing in this important area. I will then make a few comments on the practicalities of the Bill and talk about where we go from here.

First, I make it absolutely clear that we are committed to tackling the harm and exploitation that can be associated with prostitution. We believe that people who want to leave prostitution should be given every opportunity to find routes out of it. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, I pay tribute to all those organisations that work in the field of prostitution helping people to find a way out of this lifestyle.

Regardless of the legal position of prostitution in the UK, the law on rape and sexual assault is clear and unequivocal. We expect every report of sexual violence and rape to be treated seriously from the time it is reported, every victim to be treated with dignity, and every investigation and prosecution to be conducted thoroughly and professionally. This is a core strand of our wider work to eradicate violence against women and girls.

We recognise that prostitution is a complex issue that can impact on individuals and communities in different ways. Local areas and police forces are in the best position to identify and respond to the issues around prostitution in their area.

We all recognise the harm and exploitation that can be associated with prostitution. I assure the House that the Government are absolutely committed to tackling those harms. We are working across government and beyond to tackle exploitation in all its forms. This vital work is underpinned by rightly ambitious strategies focused on violence against women and girls, modern slavery and child sexual abuse.

In March this year, the previous Government outlined progress in tackling violence against women and girls over the period of the last Parliament. Our commitment continues. The previous Government ring-fenced £40 million to support victims of domestic and sexual violence—£10 million per year—and this Government are continuing that funding to April next year. In addition to that £10 million, the Government have provided an uplift of £7 million for services specifically for victims of sexual violence, and an additional £13 million for domestic abuse services, including refuges. We are currently developing a refreshed version of our strategy to be published later this year. This will set out how we will meet our manifesto commitment to provide a secure future for refuges, female genital mutilation and forced marriage units, and rape crisis centres.

Noble Lords will be aware of our concerted efforts to tackle modern slavery. Indeed, many were instrumental in their support for the Modern Slavery Act, including the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the right reverend Prelate. The Bill received Royal Assent in March and brings in a range of powers and measures to prevent exploitation and support victims.

Our Modern Slavery Strategy, published in November 2014, sets out the wider non-legislative work under four headings, the first of which is to pursue the organised criminals and opportunistic individuals behind the modern slavery trade. On this point, the noble and learned Baroness spoke of the people she visited in a prison setting in Romania who were responsible for trafficking. I hope that such people would now be captured, either under the Serious Crime Act or the Modern Slavery Act. That is, of course, something that ought to be clamped down on, and the proceeds of crime which that person was benefiting from would be taken from them.

Tackling child sexual abuse and exploitation is a top priority for the Government. The Home Office is leading on a cross-government programme to deliver the commitments departments made in the Tackling Child Sexual Exploitation report and the national group action plan. That includes recognising child sexual abuse as a national threat in the strategic policing requirement.

I now turn to the specific proposals in the Bill. Noble Lords will know that existing legislation regarding prostitution is contained in a number of Acts and has developed over time. The acts of buying and selling sex are not illegal in themselves—a point that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, made very clear. However, certain exploitative activities are specific offences. These include the running or managing of brothels, for example, or controlling prostitution—the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, began with. In this context, noble Lords will be aware that it is already against the law to advertise activity that is itself illegal; for example, sex with trafficked individuals or those under the age of 18. This reflects a widely accepted emphasis on protecting the vulnerable. In terms of public nuisance, it is illegal to place advertisements relating to prostitution around public telephones.

The Bill proposed by my noble friend Lord McColl would go significantly further by prohibiting all forms of advertising for prostitution, including online. It is a proposal that deserves our attention today. I do not want to reopen the debate that took place across the Floor of the House on the wider issue of prostitution. It is clear that the issues raised in this Bill are specific but that, at the same time, they must be seen in that wider context. The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, quite rightly drew attention to his own experience from the legislation in Northern Ireland, where it is a devolved matter and where they are entitled to take such an approach. I put on record two points which are material: first, the Government will follow closely the experience in Northern Ireland as that legislation is implemented; secondly, referring to my noble friend Lord McColl’s conversation with the Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner, the whole point of having such a commissioner is that he is independent. I take seriously what he has said to my noble friend and will follow up on it.

Notwithstanding these contested issues, there is a practical point to make on the application and enforceability of a prohibition on advertising. Noble Lords may be aware that most advertisements for prostitution are not explicit—they are couched in euphemisms, which are difficult to disentangle from non-sexual services; for example, reputable massage services or saunas. It would also be difficult to apply the legislation to advertisements on the internet, which can be hosted overseas, as we are experiencing in other areas of legislation.

The Government’s first priority in this area is public safety. For example, the Home Office has worked with the UK Network of Sex Work Projects to support the establishment of the National Ugly Mugs scheme, to which the noble and learned Baroness referred. This is an innovative mechanism whereby people involved in prostitution can make reports and receive alerts about incidents that have been reported to the scheme. Alert information is also fed to police forces, regional intelligence units and police analysts. We are pleased that the evaluation of the scheme shows that it has been successful in increasing access to justice and protection for those involved in prostitution.

Our focus on safety applies also to legislation: when considering legislative changes, we must consider carefully whether we are confident that they support the safety of the people involved in prostitution. For example, I am aware of communications that noble Lords may have received—they have been referred to—from the UK Network of Sex Work Projects setting out its concerns, particularly about criminalising and further marginalising an already vulnerable group, thereby exposing them to potentially greater risk or harm. I would be happy to discuss with my noble friend Lord McColl and other interested Peers the evidence of the extent to which such changes to the legal, and by extension ethical, position of buying sexual services would reduce harm to those involved.

While the issues around prostitution are complex and contentious, as we have heard today, we expect every report of violence to be treated seriously. In this context, it is important to reflect on the increased reporting rates for these terrible crimes, showing that, increasingly, victims have the confidence to report and can access the support they deserve. That is to be welcomed.

I recognise that at the heart of this Bill are the noble Lord’s genuinely held concerns for the welfare of those involved in prostitution. He has made those clear in his considered presentation of his proposed Bill today. I thank him and other noble Lords for their thoughtful contributions not only to this debate but to much of the Government’s work to tackle exploitation in all its forms, whether it be modern slavery, child sexual abuse or violence against women and girls. I am proud of the progress that we are making on a cross-party basis and we will continue to consider effective approaches.

In their present form, my noble friend’s proposals would have a number of legal and practical implications— which I am happy to discuss with him—that were perhaps not intended. However, we recognise his sincerity and desire to protect from harm those who are involved in prostitution and to offer people captured and trapped in that world a way out to a better and more healthy life for them and for society as a whole.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, the noble Lord made a point about the practicalities and that is the point I made generally about the Bill going to a Grand Committee. With this and other Bills you can sit there for a day and work them out in great detail and get things moving forward. It is a missed opportunity.