Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Lord Beecham Excerpts

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt, I should say that, although I am speaking from the Back Benches, I have not resigned from the Front Bench, nor have I yet been removed from it.

I am grateful to the Minister for the meeting she held yesterday to explain the 50 or so amendments in this group—almost constituting a Bill in themselves. In addition to the points made by my noble friend Lord Kennedy, I would be grateful if she explained in more detail the effect of Amendment 34 on electoral arrangements. What would be covered by the order-making power? Would it extend to ward boundary changes, council size or the electoral cycle? Will the function be carried out by the Secretary of State or the Electoral Commission? If there is to be secondary legislation, will it be by affirmative resolution?

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has already referred to the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. In a spirit of consensus, no doubt, he did not quite quote the committee’s rather stringent comments about the way the Government have proceeded. Paragraph 2 of the report states:

“Amendment 36 is one of a number of amendments to clause 16 of the Bill. Clause 16 confers a power on the Secretary of State by regulations to make changes to the governance arrangements, constitution and membership, and the structural and boundary arrangements”.

Having considered the Government’s response, the committee concluded:

“We remain of the view that the powers conferred by clause 16 are inappropriate in the absence of the kinds of constraints and protections which apply to combined authorities under Part 6 of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009. Amendment 36, which will have the effect of weakening the consent regime under clause 16, serves only to strengthen our view in this regard”.

The report was published on 22 December. We are now half way through January and the Government have not yet responded except, by implication, to reject it by ignoring it. Perhaps the Minister will give some explanation of the Government’s position on the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report.

More generally, it is necessary to ask whether the Government have thought through the implications of the impact of some of the changes the amendments in this group and the other groups may have on the existing local government structure if, for example, district councils in two-tier areas join combined authorities, as is apparently envisaged in the case of some districts in Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. They may join for the purposes of participating in infrastructure schemes or economic development while remaining within their county councils for other services, for example, education or social care. What if the combined authority then seeks to take responsibility for the NHS? This is happening in Greater Manchester. My noble friend Lord Smith will no doubt enlighten us on the progress that is being made there, which will be watched with interest, not to say fascination, by others in local government.

What happens in areas where district councils depart from their county for some purposes but not for others? Would public health and child and adult services have to be transferred to the combined authority, given that Amendments 21 and 22 refer only to the consent of members of the combined authority? If so, what impact might that have on the services in what is left of the county council? This is one of the effects of Amendment 45, which revokes the requirement for a local authority to consent to regulations revoking a transfer of functions where the revocation relates to health service functions. If not, what is the purpose of Amendment 45? Further, what, if any, are the implications for police and fire services, on which the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, briefly touched?

Moreover, given that the revenue support grant is to disappear and the entirety of business rates will henceforth accrue to local authorities, have the Government thought through the implications for areas in which districts might opt to join the neighbouring combined authority for some purposes—for example, economic development—but not others? Where would the business rates generated in those districts go? If they go in whole or in part to the district or the combined authority, is there not a risk that services to other parts of the existing county, which would have benefited from business rates in that area, will suffer a potential risk because they may not have a proportionate business rate income, actual or potential, in the rest of the county and may suffer as a result? Are these the sort of matters the Secretary of State will consider under Amendments 23 and 42? If so, what criteria are envisaged to apply?

The amendments in my name have effectively been more than adequately covered by my noble friend Lord Kennedy. The need for a consensual approach, which I think is right, was acknowledged by Ministers in what was almost a last-minute debate on the Bill in the House of Commons. However, the amendments seek only to strengthen the process under which conclusion might be reached; they do not postulate a particular outcome but emphasise the importance of seeking consensus, particularly among the communities that would be affected, not only within those districts that might seek to join in a combined authority but in the residual area of the county that may be affected by that decision.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I can but apologise for the fact that the letter has arrived late and I hope noble Lords will accept that apology from me. However, I accept the noble Lord’s point.

Amendment 45, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, enables the Secretary of State to revoke orders conferring health functions on a combined authority. I hope the noble Lord will be slightly patient—perhaps we can come to that in a later grouping when my noble friend Lord Prior will be talking about health.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, also asked me, I think, what happens to business rates if a district joins a combined authority without a county. There is no direct relationship between the membership of the combined authority and the business rates, which will be subject to further legislation. I hope that that helps the noble Lord.

[Lord Beecham]

It depends on the legislation, although I do not envisage that the noble Baroness will be in quite the same position in that context as she has been over the point that she has just made. Can she indicate what time period we are looking at and what consultation will take place over that issue, and with whom?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I expect a very quick timescale, given that some devolution deals have already been done. Time would be of the essence in getting these matters through, so I would expect the consultation process and the regulations to be dealt with fairly quickly. That is imperative, given that devolution deals have been done with different places. I hope that that is good enough for him.

The noble Lord also asked me about Amendment 34. The regulations will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure and the amendment makes clear exactly what procedures can be fast-tracked. These include changes to electoral arrangements but the Boundary Commission’s responsibilities remain unchanged. I think we went through that yesterday but I am very happy to confirm that, as it is a very important point.

The noble Lord also asked me whether the Government are trying to reorganise local government. The answer is no. We are here to assist where local government wants to reorganise itself in terms of unitarisation. He also asked whether we are taking a Henry Ford approach. I hope that Cornwall shows that we are not. It will be up to local authorities to come forward with their proposals for their areas in due course.

I have been passed a note which says that—if I can read the writing—regarding business rates, “future legislation” means primary legislation, which we will bring forward as parliamentary time allows. I hope that I have satisfied noble Lords in all the questions that they have raised.

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[Lord Warner (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I shall speak in a friendly way towards the Minister on his amendments to the amendment that the House was good enough to pass at Third Reading. I cannot guarantee to be quite as friendly towards the Minister on all matters relating to the NHS and social care in future. I suspect that we shall have a good canter around that course on Thursday.

What it shows is that this House has an important scrutiny function to perform. I know that we gave the Minister a pretty hard time on this issue, but the Government rather deserved it. I think that it was very foolish for the Government to bring the Bill to this House with the devolution of NHS functions in it without clarity about how that would work in relation to existing NHS legislation, particularly the 2006 and 2012 Acts. I am glad that the Government have seen the error of their ways and I am extremely grateful to the Minister and his colleague, Alistair Burt, for the considerate way in which they discussed with me this set of amendments.

I am happy to commend them to the House because they meet the concerns that were expressed at an earlier stage, and I accept the points made by the Minister about the need, very occasionally, to revoke some of these changes. I do not accept the advice from the BMA in its guidance that there should be more safeguards. Given the nature of NHS legislation in this country, it is inevitable that where the Secretary of State sees real damage being done in a local area, he has to step in and make some changes. It is almost inevitable that on the odd occasion that will be necessary, so I am quite happy to support the change proposed by the Minister.

This shows the House in a good state in its ability to exercise its scrutiny functions—and, at the time of the Strathclyde report, it does us well to pat ourselves a little bit on the back that we have actually helped the Government improve their legislation.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, Warner Brothers established a remarkable reputation in the field of entertainment. It would be churlish if the noble Lord, who perhaps no longer counts himself as a brother to some of us on these Benches, was not to be congratulated on effecting a substantive change to the Bill that improves it. Members on all sides will want to join the Minister in paying tribute to the noble Lord’s efforts.

As to the rather peculiar route taken by the Government in this matter, I think it became apparent to those of us who attended the meeting chaired by the noble Baroness at which the noble Lord, Lord Prior, was present, together with the silent presence of the Minister for devolution and the northern powerhouse, that at that point there really had been virtually no contact between the relevant departments, notably DCLG and the Department of Health. Clearly matters have improved since then and the House will be grateful to the two Ministers, who I suspect have got together much more effectively than had been possible at that stage. So far as the Opposition are concerned, we welcome the changes that have been made.

But questions still remain, some of which I referred to in my earlier speech in relation to the first group, about the position particularly in what are now county areas, where it is conceivable that certain districts may affiliate to combined authorities in an adjacent area. If, for example, there was a situation where there was a district council in Cheshire rather than a unitary, which joined the combined authority—it may or may not; I have no idea what is happening in the north-west, and no doubt my noble friend Lord Smith will enlighten us—and it affiliated for economic purposes with the combined authority and health was then taken over by that combined authority, what would happen to the social care part of the overall concept of health and social care? I do not think that that question has been resolved. It certainly has not been resolved in my mind, but that may be a defect on my part. It would be good to have some enlightenment about that situation.

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[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for his very friendly comments—long may they continue. As he and other noble Lords have mentioned, this is a good example of the scrutiny provided by this House in ensuring that we have, as my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay mentioned, a truly National Health Service, and that this legislation preserves, rather than undermines, the integrity of the National Health Service, with accountability, after devolution, still clearly with the Secretary of State for Health and to Parliament.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked what will happen in the event that things do not work out—I think that was the issue that he raised. The answer is, I think, that it will depend on the negotiations in each individual case. There need to be sensible arrangements from the outset as to what will happen in the event that things do not work out, which the Secretary of State will need to take a view on when agreeing to the deal at the beginning. In a sense, the end game needs to be considered early on in the proceedings. However, I may have missed the point that the noble Lord was making.

[Lord Beecham]

That may be partly my fault. My point was not that things might not work out in, for example, the Greater Manchester context; the problem that I raise is the situation that might arise where a district comes out of a county and into a combined authority for certain purposes and that combined authority decides that it wants to deal with health, but the social services provision, unless there is another change, remains with the county within which that district exists. That seems to me the area that has not yet been resolved; it is certainly not clear in my mind and, looking around, I think that there are others whose minds may also be confused by the situation. It is not an easy question for the Minister to answer, and if he is not able to do so, I will understand, but I think that it is a matter that needs to be addressed between the two departments and, if I may say so, in consultation with the local government world as well as the health world, before we get to the point where the situation becomes one where such a risk develops. It is not the case in Greater Manchester, but it may occur elsewhere if we have that movement by county districts into combined authorities for some purposes.

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[Lord Beecham]

I am sorry to intervene again, but from what my noble friend just said it occurs to me that it is not just social care; one has to think about education and children’s services, where there is also a potential dimension. So far, nobody has mentioned that. That is another department that ought to be involved. Of course, we cannot resolve this today, but I urge that the kind of discussions I have mentioned should take place, and I now add the education department to that.

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, life is untidy, unfortunately. It is never clear and you cannot foresee all eventualities. The only response I can give noble Lords today is that the Secretary of State will deal with each matter on a case-by-case basis. I do not think that anyone can lay down a blueprint for dealing with that now, but I am happy to discuss it with the noble Lord and the noble Baroness if they want to do so. Maybe this is not the right place to go into all of that. I hope that that will be acceptable to them.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, raised the report on the success of devolution. I think I can speak for the Secretary of State for Health in saying that he would want to involve all relevant stakeholders in that report, not least patients, frankly, for obvious reasons. I am happy to put that on the record.

I conclude by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Smith, for updating us all on what is happening in Manchester. We on both sides of the House wish Greater Manchester well. It is a trailblazer and a very important development. We hope that we will see more devolution across England while still retaining the central accountability and integrity of the National Health Service.

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[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

We have repeatedly supported the idea of votes for 16 and 17 year-olds. I think noble Lords will find that the position of the noble Lord today is a tactical one.

[Lord Beecham]

When it comes to sitting on their hands, few better exponents of that philosophy could be found than those on the Liberal Democrat Benches. They sat on their hands and colluded with the enormous damage inflicted on local government and elsewhere for five years. They are not in any position to lecture us about anything around consistency. Furthermore, it is quite clear that the Government’s unfortunate position on this has been confirmed on three or four occasions in votes at the other end. We are not in a position to change that. Noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Benches know that it will not change. This is gesture politics of a typical kind and we ought to have nothing whatever to do with it. When we get a change of Government, we will see a change in the voting age, not only for local authority elections but for parliamentary elections, European elections and any future referendums.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think I had better quickly break up the fight. When is the right time to have the debate on the franchise? It is most certainly not in a devolution Bill, in the House of Lords, when the House of Commons has voted decisively, on two occasions, to overturn this amendment. As for any arguments in addition to those I have already made, I have nothing much to add other than to back up the points that the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, made at the previous stage of the Bill. The Electoral Commission has also voiced concern about this amendment. Other than that, I have nothing further to add. It is not the time, it is not the Bill and we are not the House to be deciding this.

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[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I cannot really account for it but somehow Part 5A of the Local Transport Act 2008 has managed to escape my notice hitherto. I am interested to see that the Government have decided to incorporate reference to transport infrastructure in the devolution Bill, and that is very welcome, but I am not entirely clear about the scope of the proposals before us. Clearly, I welcome the Commons amendments here but, on the face of it, they appear to relate to Highways England and to rail matters, which of course are very important, but I could not see any reference to such issues as ports and airports as part of the functioning of these transport bodies. Perhaps the noble Lord could advise whether they are included and, if not, say why not.

Of course, those of us in the north—the noble Lord has referred to Transport for the North—are very conscious of the huge disparity in the expenditure on transport infrastructure in our part of the country and the vast amounts that have been poured into Crossrail, which we have heard recently is to be further extended. Rather worryingly, it is to go under the block of flats in Balham in which I have a flat. That will no doubt take some time but the disproportion in expenditure is quite remarkable. It is a huge factor and one hopes that it will be redressed.

I am not entirely clear about the likely size of these sub-national transport bodies. A lot of the work will serve to connect different parts of the country but in the part of the country that I come from, in particular, we will be looking at cross-country routes to the north-west—to Cumbria and Carlisle from Newcastle and Sunderland and places on the east coast. For the purposes of these bodies, will we not be looking at, for example, simply the combined authority area, because that does not extend beyond the borders of Northumberland and Cumbria? If the area is to go beyond that, what sorts of boundaries will we be looking at? If it does not go beyond that, what mechanism will exist to bring together areas which are not part of the same combined authority?

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for his briefing note, which I received last week, on the proposals in this amendment for sub-national transport bodies. I welcome the switch in emphasis that he has referred to. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, talked about levels of expenditure and, in particular, the enormous amount that is spent on London and the south-east in comparison with the north of England. Having a sub-national transport body of this kind will be extremely helpful in refocusing the attention of Whitehall on the need to fund the north better than it currently does. Therefore, I thank the Minister for that and I think that the proposals are absolutely right but I want to say two things.

The first concerns the question of to whom the sub-national transport bodies will be accountable—in other words, the extent to which the constituent councils of those sub-national bodies will have a regular reporting mechanism. It seems to me very important that there should be a regular means of providing feedback from those councils to the sub-national transport body. Secondly, I hope that the Minister will agree to a system of annual reporting, which occurs elsewhere in the Bill in relation to combined authorities, elected mayors and other matters. Can he confirm that there will also be annual reporting by the sub-national transport bodies? I would find that extremely helpful.

My last point relates to the use of the negative procedure as opposed to the affirmative procedure. The Minister will have seen the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which challenges the use of the negative procedure. The grounds are that the powers will exist for a limited period of time. The definition of a “limited period of time” does not appear anywhere. Is it a matter of a few months or of two or three years, or is it a matter of something more significant?

I hope that the Government might be persuaded of the importance of using the affirmative procedure. Given the scale and magnitude that this proposal represents in reality, I think that using the affirmative procedure would be better than using the negative procedure. Does the Minister have any comments on that?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions.

I want to pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Smith, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. There is accountability, and that accountability is very much to the stakeholders that make up the particular STB. As for the limits or extension of these areas, that will very much be dependent on the local authorities themselves and the collaboration that takes place. The key point I emphasise is one of strategic decision-making, which is the intention behind the creation of such bodies, as we are already seeing with the creation of TfN. Indeed, the reason behind putting TfN on a statutory footing is that the very bodies that make it up have also requested this.

I will now pick up some of the questions raised by noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, also asked about annual reporting. The legislation makes it clear that STBs shall produce and publish their strategy and updates to that strategy. That can be seen with TfN, which produced its additional reports in March 2015 and has plans for annual updates, the next being in March 2016.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked about the extent to which different modes of transport are covered by STBs. The whole essence of sub-national transport bodies will be to cater for all modes of transport within a defined geography, including ports and airports. This can already be seen in the work of TfN, which has set out quite clearly its plans for all modes of transport, including ports and airports. I take on board totally the point the noble Lord made that this is not just about linking up rail and roads; it is about ensuring that, where there are ports and airports, these also form part of the strategic transport strategy for a given geographical region.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, also asked about the size of STBs. As I have already said, it is really up to the local areas to come forward with proposals; it is about bringing together local authorities. There may be some traditionally defined areas, but it is about how local authorities can come together and collaborate across traditional borders to ensure the best result for a particular region. In terms of the requirements, there must be two appropriate authorities to form an STB.

[Lord Beecham]

A particular authority or area might want to belong to two such networks. For example, one can see clearly that there is a case for the north-east and Cumbria coming together on the horizontal routes. Equally, Cumbria might want to go south towards my noble friend Lord Smith and vice versa. Is it possible to belong to two such networks?

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, there has been much speculation about what these powers might mean in respect of fracking and so on. The whole purpose of the amendment is to give park authorities the scope to be more innovative, rather than to act in an unduly competitive way with each other.

The part of government Amendment 77 that amends Section 65 of the Environment Act 1995 is minor and technical and contains the amendments consequential on government Amendment 54. I hope that noble Lords will feel able to accept the amendment.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, this amendment is welcome and has been warmly supported by the national parks authorities, although I understand that there was some slight misunderstanding about that on the part of the Opposition in the House of Commons. Certainly, we want to endorse the sentiments of the noble Baroness about the potential for each national park authority. Of course, I come from a part of the world where there is a remarkable national park, and it occurs to me that the Government might want to facilitate a close relationship between combined authorities such as the one in the north-east and, I suspect, the one in the Sheffield area with the Peak District National Park, so they can collaborate in a way that perhaps was not possible before. It would of course be a matter for the authorities, rather than for legislation, but it is something the Government might encourage.

One matter that was raised in the House of Commons was clarified at the time by the Minister, but I invite the noble Baroness to repeat the assurance that nothing in this proposal would facilitate the adoption of fracking in any national park area—that is, that it would not be open to a national park authority to allow such a development. It would be good to have it on the record in your Lordships’ House as well as in the Commons.

[Lord Shipley]

My Lords, I welcome the proposal for the national parks. As with the rest of the Bill, a regular review of how this power is being used would be welcome, and I am sure we will have that.

We thank the Minister for her leadership on the Bill. It has been seven months since we began the process, which we have found rewarding. Although from time to time there have been differences—some still remain—the truth is that the outcome is in the interests of stronger government at the sub-regional and local level in England, and I welcome that. We will see how it goes over the next few years, but I am very optimistic that the groundwork put in by the Minister and her colleagues during this Parliament and the last one is going to bear fruit.

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[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, National Parks England, which is the umbrella body for the park authorities, is making no secret of the fact that it positively welcomes this amendment and sees great opportunities in it. I have one anxiety on which I would like an assurance, but I suspect that it comes at a slightly different angle from that of the noble Lord, Lord Deben. There is sometimes a subjective dividing line between commercialisation of the parks and using commercial opportunities to strengthen their purposes. Elsewhere in legislation the Government have, to their credit, stood firmly by the definition of what national parks are. They are not areas which are ripe for commercial exploitation; rather they are areas in which sensible co-operation between the park and other authorities could do a great deal to strengthen the authority and enhance the well-being of the people in the community. But the purpose of the park is to enable more people from all ethnic groups in Britain to appreciate the contrast of beauty, landscape and all the rest. I suspect that the Minister is 100% on my side on this, but I would like an assurance that this undoubtedly important amendment, containing as it does such great advances, will not be allowed to become an excuse for commercialisation, in the wrong sense, of the parks at the expense of their real purpose.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, I appear to have failed to notice that we are dealing with the last group of amendments. Obviously I want to join the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, in thanking the Minister for her charming and helpful approach to legislation—this will do her reputation as a Minister no good at all—and to thank the members of the Bill team, who have always been helpful and approachable. That has been the case right from the start, I believe, some nine months ago when the Bill was conceived and has now been delivered in its final shape. It bears a great deal to the way in which the noble Baroness and her colleagues have assisted Members from all sides of the House.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord Shipley, for their kind words. All three noble Lords have talked about the power of collaboration between authorities while not under- mining what the original intent of the national park functions is. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Judd, that the new power of functional competence does not change the statutory duty and purpose of the park authority; I can give him an absolute assurance on that. I can also assure the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, that nothing in the proposal facilitates fracking. I think I gave that assurance to my noble friend Lord Deben. It might help him if I read the provisions of new Clause 65C to be inserted under Amendment 54. It states:

“The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision preventing an English National Park authority from doing under section 65A(1) anything which is specified, or is of a description specified, in the regulations”.

The Secretary of State has the power to make sure that the checks and balances are in place for a national park’s priorities and functions to be protected.

I think that I have answered all points made by noble Lords and I thank them for the enjoyable experience that this Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill has been.