Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Kamall and Baroness Tyler of Enfield

3rd reading
Wednesday 23rd April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, as the Minister has said, debating the passage of the Bill through your Lordships’ House has been a pleasure. We have seen a genuine spirit of constructive engagement with a Bill that we all acknowledge will help patients who encounter mental health services, as well as a cross-party desire to improve the Bill. This was not a particularly political Bill; we found alliances across political lines and did not play political games. We wanted to improve the Bill and make sure that patients receive the best possible care. That is a wonderful demonstration of the value of this House.

I extend my thanks to all Peers who took part. I also thank the members of the pre-legislative committee whom the Minister acknowledged. Like the Minister, I acknowledge my noble friend Lady May of Maidenhead, the former Prime Minister, who we have to thank for beginning the process that led to this Bill. My noble friend identified the issue of racial disparities in the use of community treatment orders and wanted to reduce the involvement of police where they are not needed. Even though my noble friend was unable to be in her place to speak to her amendments on Report, I am grateful to all noble Lords who supported them, and I am delighted that the House has decided that they should be inserted into the Bill. We look forward to how that will be debated in the other place.

It was also welcome to see the House rally behind my noble friend Lady Berridge’s amendment to ensure that the process for appointing nominated persons for patients under 16 aligns with the Children Act 1989. My noble friend was crystal clear that there has to be consistency between different Bills, and that we do not want people falling between Bills and into harm’s way. She highlighted this and gave some harrowing examples of what could happen if we do not align these Bills. We have to make sure that we align them as much as possible.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for their dedication to improving community treatment orders and addressing racial disparities. Noble Lords will remember that this is probably the issue that was closest to my heart, and we probed the Government heavily on it. There are still too many racial disparities. We understand that it is a complicated issue, but the Government assured the House that they are looking into the data around this. What do they know? What do they not know? How will they fill that gap and what will they do to address racial disparities? I hope that is something that all noble Lords can agree on.

Of course, I have to thank my noble friend Lord Howe for his stalwart support and advice on this Bill, and for his experience not only of parliamentary procedure but of previous iterations of this Bill. I appreciate his sagacity, and I am grateful whenever he agrees to work with me on Bills—sometimes to curb my schoolboy enthusiasm and keep me on the right path. I am grateful that he has agreed to work with me on the Tobacco and Vapes Bill, which your Lordships will debate later today.

I also thank the Minister—and of course her noble friend, the noble Lord, Lord Timpson—for taking time at the Dispatch Box, and for the fact that the Minister and her officials were always available to meet us to try to iron out some of the disagreements or find compromises. That is very much appreciated by all noble Lords in this House. I thank Ben, the special adviser in her office, for his input, and, in our office, our adviser Jamie Tucker, who was amazing in his understanding of the Bill.

I will end by mentioning a quote that was sent to me and my noble friend Lord Howe from the charity Blooming Change. On hearing that the House had voted in favour of my noble friend’s amendment on mandatory debriefing for mental health patients, a younger person told the charity:

“I genuinely for the longest time felt like I didn’t matter, to anyone or anything, that the universe didn’t need to hear my voice, that what I went through didn’t matter. It took so long to build my confidence and to find my voice … I’m glad I decided to use my experiences to fight for change and I’m so happy our words have made a difference. We will keep fighting for more changes, little by little”.


As the Bill now progresses to the other place, I hope all Members involved will heed those wise words.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, it has been a privilege to be involved in scrutinising and improving this vital Bill, for which we had waited so long. Our debates have been, rightly, exhaustive, and at times—again, quite rightly—passionate. I will make one general observation, which is a point that was made on a number of occasions throughout our deliberations. You get only one chance about every 15 years to reform and modernise mental health legislation, so it is really important to get it right and to include all the relevant issues before the ship sails. Some would like to have seen more fundamental fusion legislation between mental health and incapacity, but that was not on the table, so you work with what you have.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Kamall and Baroness Tyler of Enfield

Report stage
Monday 31st March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I will very briefly speak in support of this very important set of amendments. As my noble friend Lord Scriven set out on Amendment 11, which I very strongly support, the case for having some conditionality around community treatment orders is overwhelming, including making them time limited and having a second doctor’s certification to confirm their therapeutic benefit. Both are very hard to argue against. They get the right balance between, as we heard in earlier stages, those who want to get rid of the orders altogether and those who feel that we need to tighten up the conditions. The other two review amendments are also very important.

Finally, we need to remind ourselves, as we did at Second Reading and in Committee, that black people are seven times more likely to be on a community treatment order than other members of the population. That is why this is so important.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, for the excellent way he introduced his Amendment 11. I fully support everything that he said.

The suitability of community treatment orders is an issue that has obviously featured heavily in the discussions on the Bill so far. I think that many of us came to the debates on the Bill, having read the Joint Committee’s pre-legislative scrutiny report, thinking that we were going to support the abolition of community treatment orders or be very sympathetic to that idea. However, two contributions gave us a reason to pause and think. One was the personal story from the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter; the other was hearing the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, say that she previously believed that they should be abolished before realising that they are entirely appropriate for a small number of situations or cases. In fact, given that one of the principles of the Bill is imposing the least amount of restriction, maybe they are the least restrictive solution for some incidents.

Having said that, very serious concerns obviously remain about the use of community treatment orders in their current form. Other noble Lords and I spoke in Committee about the overrepresentation of black males, which is what my Amendment 62 intends to address. It was a shame that the deliberations on this issue came so late at night, but I thank the Minister and her officials for their engagement. I asked three simple questions: what do we know about why black people are disproportionately detained? What do we not know? What research and work are we conducting—I know this sounds like a PhD research thesis seeking to generate the research questions so that someone can go from an MPhil to their PhD—and what is the gap in research to generate the questions for the primary research?

I was very reassured by the responses from the Minister and her officials that they take this seriously. They set out in detail the work that they are doing. In fact, the Minister put a lot of that in a letter to me. It would be unfair of me to ask her to read out precisely what is in that letter, because we would be here for quite a few hours, but can she share some of those assurances with the House? It would be very helpful for other noble Lords to understand why, given that letter, I have decided that I will not push my amendment to a vote.

As I said, the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, has struck the right balance. The amendment acknowledges that there are issues with CTOs and allows for their continued use, under restrictions. It is really important that, in every case, there is a review, and 12 months would seem an appropriate time for that review, rather than cases just being forgotten about, people being caught up in other casework or cases falling behind the filing cabinet—if there was another analogy I could use, I would. If the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, decides to divide the House, these Benches will support him.

I look forward to hearing some of the assurances the Minister gave to me and others on racial disparities. I hope also that she can address the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Scriven.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Kamall and Baroness Tyler of Enfield

Committee stage
Monday 24th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I had not intended to come in on this group, but, having just heard the very powerful—and, in places, very alarming and harrowing—speech from the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, I will just ask the Minister whether he can explain what plans the Government have to assess and evaluate the impact of the provisions of the future Act on prisons and the criminal justice system, even if they are not planning a formal review. We need to know how the impact will be assessed.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, during the passage of this Bill, both the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, who is not in his place, have spoken passionately about people with mental health issues in prison. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, referred to Valdo Calocane, and I know that the Government have instigated an inquiry. That particular case was the motivation for Amendments 160BA and 160BB in a later group, to which my noble friend Lord Howe will speak.

During the earlier debates on this, both at Second Reading and in Committee, I was particularly struck by the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, on Chief Inspector Charlie Taylor’s graphic description of seriously mentally ill people in prisons being akin to a Victorian nightmare. After that debate, I read some of what Charlie Taylor had said, particularly about his visit in 2022 to Eastwood Park, where he witnessed

“bloodstains on the floor and scratch marks on the walls—evidence of the levels of distress of the women being held there”.

The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, also told the Committee about the experience of prison staff, saying that one of the most difficult things is the danger that prisoners with mental health issues pose to themselves, other prisoners and staff. In fact, Charlie Taylor gave an example of an incident when staff were

“unable to stop one inmate from repeatedly running into a brick wall due to a lack of suitable training”.

These are very important issues that the noble Baroness and other noble Lords are raising.

Given all this and its importance—I know that one of the reasons the Minister was appointed to his position was his experience and passion for prison reform—it seems reasonable to ask the Secretary of State to publish a review of the impact of this Act on prisons and to assess whether it provides for adequate support for ongoing treatment and care in those settings, including adequate staff training. I am sure this will be of help not only to the Secretary of State for the Department of Health and Social Care but to the Ministry of Justice. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, there has been discussion throughout Committee about whether this Bill and our deliberations should stick strictly to detention under the Act or range wider. I know that there are different views on this issue. I have said consistently throughout our debates that we need to see what more we can do to prevent people reaching the point where the only option is being forcibly detained.

I feel that a key omission is a power around prevention. Given the cost of statutory in-patient admissions under the mental health legislation, and the stated intention of the Secretary of State to reduce hospitalisation through prevention, I find this surprising. Therefore, I have brought forward a simple amendment that would give relevant authorities the power to promote mental ill-health prevention in their communities, while of course being realistic about current financial realities.

My Amendment 160B seeks to explicitly grant relevant bodies, including integrated care boards, public health bodies and local health boards in Wales, the power to promote mental ill-health prevention within their communities. It would also empower organisations such as social care and the voluntary sector to take proactive steps in reducing the likelihood of individuals reaching crisis point and requiring detention under the Act.

I was pleased recently to have the opportunity to discuss this with the Approved Mental Health Professional Leads Network, which is very much involved in this. It expressed its support for such an approach. I think we all understand that the causes of mental health issues are complex and can be as much around societal issues, such as employment, housing and poverty, as clinical issues. That is clearly recognised in the AMHP’s role, which acknowledges that while a clinical perspective is always appropriate, other perspectives can be equally valuable. As was explained to me, at the core of the approved mental health professional’s role is a responsibility to explore less restrictive alternatives to detention for individuals in crisis.

As has been quoted a number of times in this Chamber, recently the Secretary of State said that the Government will publish a 10-year plan early next year setting out how they will deliver three big shifts in the focus of the NHS,

“from hospital to community, from analogue to digital, and from sickness to prevention”.

I see this legislation, and indeed this amendment, as an opportunity to make a reality of that statement in relation to mental health. While there will always need to be provision for statutory interventions for those who present a severe risk to themselves or others, it is surprising to me that, in this journey from hospital to community and sickness to prevention, there is no explicit mention of the promotion of good mental health within the Bill.

There is plenty of evidence of the links between prevention and reducing detention. I was going to give some examples, but the hour is late and noble Lords will be pleased to hear that I am not going to. There are also plenty of examples of alternative approaches to detention, such as crisis cafes and safe spaces, community crisis response teams, mobile mental health and social care professionals who respond to individuals in crisis, peer support networks, sanctuaries and respite services. All these have been shown to be effective in reducing the need for hospital admissions.

To conclude, by formally giving relevant bodies the power—it is a power, not a duty—to promote mental ill-health prevention, this amendment encourages a proactive rather than a reactive approach to mental health care and support, thereby, I hope, reducing reliance on crisis interventions, including involuntary detention. I beg to move.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for introducing this amendment. It is quite clear that noble Lords across the Committee agree with the Government’s commitment to move the emphasis from sickness to prevention. This amendment is clearly aimed at that, as the noble Baroness has said.

During my time as a Health Minister and since, I have met a number of community and civil society projects, charities and mental health professionals who have shared the amazing work being done across the country to improve the well-being of local communities. I put on record my thanks to the late Baroness Greengross and the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, for introducing me to the wonderful world of creative health and to the National Centre for Creative Health. Its work addresses the theme of earlier amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, on the overprescribing of antidepressants and looking at alternatives. We are not saying that medication is a bad thing necessarily. It is very appropriate in some cases, but there are alternatives, such as social prescribing.

The late Lady Greengross introduced me to a wonderful organisation called Intergenerational Music Making, and I put on record my thanks for its work. It invited me to take part in one of its intergenerational music hubs in Guildford last December and, despite being handed a guitar to play along, I found it inspiring to see the difference that music can make in improving well-being and bringing people of all ages together, including some children from a local learning disability charity.

Noble Lords will also know of the equally amazing work done by many social prescribing organisations, using music, art, drama and green spaces. A career in creative health also opens up new opportunities for budding actors and rock stars who can train as drama and music therapists while waiting for their big break. But many do not wish to be stars and actually find their work, combining their passion with improving mental well-being, fulfilling in its own right.

However, one criticism I hear is that, although there is amazing work on well-being in different primary care settings or in different trusts and integrated care systems across the country, the challenge is how we spread the best practice across our system of health and care, while recognising that what works in one area may not always be an off-the-shelf solution in another locality.

The amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler —which says that

“Local authorities and commissioning bodies must publish an annual report outlining the steps taken to discharge their duty”


to promote mental health and well-being—may be a way to address this concern. Given that, I hope it is an amendment that the Government will consider. If not, perhaps the Minister can tell your Lordships how the Government intend to encourage the sharing of best practice in improving mental well-being across our system of health and care, particularly across different communities with different needs and different constraints, in order to improve the mental well-being of the nation.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Kamall and Baroness Tyler of Enfield

Committee stage
Monday 27th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

Just the 16. Anyway, it is a long time to wait.

The amendments aiming to make it clear, as the noble Lord said, when the clock starts ticking are really important, so that there is real accountability injected into the system. Often, when things go wrong it is where no one really feels responsible for something, so it does not happen. I will also be interested to hear what the “exceptional circumstances” do and do not include—I hope we will get some examples—because if they include just things such as shortage of staff or beds, we will not get very far at all, given the current state of mental health beds.

I understand the rationale behind the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens; the reciprocity is a really important point to make. I just have slight concerns that we might be saying that this cannot happen in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, wanted to see, because we know that we have not got the scarce and specialist beds. They are just not available; it is very important to be practical about it.

It comes to the heart of the matter of this whole Bill: we know that, unless proper resource is put into the implementation of the Bill, it is not going to work at all. We know that, with mental health provision, particularly a secure unit, particularly with the state of the estate, the shortage of staff and all of that, there has to be wholesale investment in it for these things to work. I think the time has come. I simply add my voice to others to say that I hope the noble Lord practises patience—but I think he has waited long enough so I hope his patience will not be tested any longer.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who spoke to the amendments. I also thank the Government for allowing the Minister for Prisons, Probation and Reducing Reoffending to reply to this group. That is very much welcomed by the Committee. I think it was the noble Lord’s father who once said, “Kindness is good for business”. In this case, he might find that kindness is good for his noble friend the Minister. Given how hard she has been working on the Bill, I think she deserves some respite, so I am sure that that is very welcome.

So far, we have debated the importance of limiting detentions for those with autism or learning disabilities without co-occurring mental disorders. We have also debated the community treatment orders. But until now, we have not covered the provisions of the Bill relating to this new statutory 28-day time-limited period for transfers from prisons to hospitals. As the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, has said, he has been very patient. Therefore, the Government enshrining this target in law is welcome. Unfortunately, progress towards the goal of 28 days, as set out in the 2021 guidance and the White Paper, has been slower than anticipated.

His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons, in its 2024 report The Long Wait—I am sure the noble Lord is aware of this—said that

“people linger in prison for weeks, often months and even, in the worst cases, for more than a year waiting for their transfer to be completed”.

Unfortunately, even though the 28-day guidance was there from 2022-23, only 15% of patients in that period were transferred to hospital within that timeframe. Sadly, the average wait was 85 days, and one prisoner was identified as waiting 462 days for transfer to hospital.

These Benches welcome the 28-day limit being put on a statutory footing, but, as other noble Lords have said—not only on this group of amendments but on others—once again, there is an issue of implementation here. Just because it is in legislation does not mean it will deliver the improvements that are necessary.

The noble Lord’s colleague—the noble Baroness, Lady Merron—has been very candid with noble Lords, saying that not everything in the Bill will be delivered now, and that there is a 10-year timetable for implementation. Given that, will the Minister say, at this stage, whether the 28-day limit is an aspiration or something that could be delivered immediately? If, at this stage, it is an aspiration and—understandably so—awaiting future spending reviews, is he able to give an indicative timeframe? Is the hope for the next 12 months, the next five years or, perhaps, up to 10 years? That information would be very welcome to noble Lords. Many noble Lords have been asking this throughout this debate. We understand that not everything is going to be solved overnight, but it would be good if we could have as much information as possible on the Government’s intentions and aspirations, including indicative timetables, where they are possible. We also understand that not everything is going to be clearly tagged at this stage.

Another finding from the prison inspectorate’s report was that there were serious flaws with the data held on patients who were awaiting transfer. I understand that there is no publicly available data describing the access and waiting times for beds. The Minister might be able to correct me on that. Some of the data on the numbers of prisoners awaiting transfer obtained from providers had significant gaps, due to a lack of consistent and accurate reporting, and some data contained errors and unreliability. This might also impact on Amendments 97 and 98 from the noble Lord, Lord Stevens.

The noble Baroness, Lady Merron, may well tire of hearing me repeat the importance of collecting accurate and complete data, but, as I and many other noble Lords have said on many occasions, we really cannot solve many of the problems we face without data that is as accurate and timely as possible. Therefore, I urge both Ministers to take up the issue of data reporting for patients awaiting transfer from prison to hospital with their respective departments.

Turning to Amendment 96C in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, which creates an accountable person who will be appointed to oversee the transfer process and ensure that the statutory 28-day limit is completed, I think this, once again, speaks to the point of implementation. This could be a sensible way of holding providers to account and working with them to address the shortcomings in patient transfers. Given the Government’s 10-year timeframe for implementation, noble Lords have raised the importance of oversight and accountability. Therefore, in the remarks from the Minister and in any subsequent letter, I hope that the Government will be able to address the issue of implementation and to give an indicative timetable. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Kamall and Baroness Tyler of Enfield

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that response. One thing we can all agree on from this discussion is that these are complex issues and people sometimes have rather different understandings of what certain things might say or mean.

Having said that, I would just like to say where I think we are on the two issues. First, on advanced decisions, I have a strong view that children and young people aged 16 and 17 should have choices that are made available to adults extended to them. As I think the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, said, it is about having a sense of agency and autonomy and feeling that their wishes and feelings are being respected. It may be that I did not draft it very well, but I was not suggesting that everyone was going to be forced to do it. It is there as an option, and that is a really important point that possibly did not come out sufficiently in the debate. The fault for that is mine. It may be that the approach that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, was suggesting is a better way forward. I do not know; I do not mind. I just feel that, because to me this is so fundamental and a question of human rights, we will need to return to this on Report.

I turn with some trepidation now to the statutory competence test for under-16s. I have been accused of being too cautious. That is fine. I understand where noble Lords were coming from. I did not say it when I introduced it, because I thought it would be a bit to odd to say it, but I was seeing my amendment as a bit of a backstop. In other words, if the Government are not minded to accept that recommendation, at least something would happen and at least there would be some sort of progress. As I said, I was very sympathetic to the test and the way that the noble Lord, Lord Meston, set it out. It had a fair amount of support, of course, across the Chamber, but the debate also showed that there are still some quite tricky issues that need to be teased out. I do not think it was quite as clear-cut as perhaps was being suggested, not least about issues around the consistency or otherwise of the application of Gillick.

It may be that, again, I did not get the wording right when I talked about a “review”. I accept that. Reviews can be kicked into the long grass and you never see anything again. But I thought the idea of a consultation was very important and, in fact, I think it would be quite difficult, having listened to this debate carefully, to move straight to having something in the Bill without having some sort of consultation first. It might be that you would want to take some sort of powers that would enable such a thing to be put in place after that consultation had happened, but to me it just felt that some issues still needed to be teased out.

Perhaps my initial amendment was not completely ludicrous, but it has been a really good and interesting debate—

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Probing.