Employment Rights Bill

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th May 2025 Lords Chamber

That is why we are proud of Amendment 135, and I am delighted with the support we have had across the Committee. This is the Bill that can deliver paid carer’s leave; this is the Bill that should deliver paid carer’s leave. The Committee has made it clear what it thinks the Government should do in response to Amendment 135.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Fox, whose fox has not been shot.

This has been such an interesting, important, fascinating and deeply moving debate. We owe a debt of gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, for very positively introducing the fact that unpaid carers are the backbone of the care system, and for bringing us up to date with the reality of modern families. I think the Committee has spoken with one voice as we await the reply from the Government Front Bench. Have we not united in saying what we want the Government to do? It will be very interesting to hear the response. I hope they will use every moment between now and Report to be more specific about how they wish to respond to the issues that have been thrown up in this debate.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, I acknowledge the importance of kinship carers—the grandparents, aunts, uncles, siblings and other close family members who step forward when children need a stable and loving environment. These individuals often take on significant responsibilities with little preparation or support, and they always do so with compassion and commitment. The contribution of kinship carers cannot be overstated. As the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle reminded us, they help prevent children entering the care system. They keep families together, and often do so at great personal and financial cost.

I have to acknowledge the contribution of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, who had some wonderful specific quotes to share with the Committee. There is an important strategic alliance here, particularly with the noble Baronesses, Lady Pitkeathley and Lady Lister of Burtersett, and it will be important to respond positively to the points that they have made.

I believe there is a genuine case for us to explore how we might better support those who take on these caring responsibilities in such difficult circumstances. While I appreciate that statutory leave may not be straightforward to implement, especially in the current economic climate, there is room, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, suggested, for a wider conversation about what more might be done. There should therefore be further consultation on this matter—with kinship carers themselves, with businesses and with the wider public—to understand the practicalities and to gather the necessary evidence. If we can find a solution that is proportionate, workable and rooted in the realities faced by both carers and employers then that will deserve our serious consideration. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Llanfaes, has said, there is room here for a modest move forward that would make a significant contribution.

We have to acknowledge the moving speech of the noble Lord, Lord Brennan of Canton, about bereavement leave. He spoke movingly of his Commons colleague Sarah Owen, MP for Luton North, who has blazed a trail of understanding in some areas that previously have not been properly understood, and we need to respond positively to that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, talked about serious childhood illness, pay and leave, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe. That that is another area where we need to explore how we can better tackle these challenges. In all these areas, I am confident that, through continued dialogue, we can work towards a sustainable strategy.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been another wide-ranging debate and I am grateful for the contributions of all noble Lords. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, my opposite number, just said, it has been a moving and profound debate that has demonstrated the complexities of the issues in front of us. There is unanimity across the Committee, I am sure, that we should do as much as we can to support carers. We have to ask ourselves how best we do that. We have picked up the baton from the last Government, who passed the Carer’s Leave Act, and we must move forward on that—but I am getting ahead of myself.

I join the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for putting the issue of kinship care in front of us, tabling Amendments 77, 78, 79, 134, 135 and 144. I also thank my noble friend Lord Brennan of Canton for tabling Amendment 81. I will do my best to get through these amendments at a decent pace.

I will begin with kinship care, speaking to Amendments 78 and 79, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. I join others in emphasising how greatly I and the Government appreciate kinship carers, who generously step into the breach and offer loving homes for children who cannot live with their parents. I am sure that the whole House shares these sentiments.

I reassure noble Lords that the Government are committed to ensuring that all employed parents and carers receive the support they need to manage both their work and their family lives. As we have heard, Amendment 78 aims to establish a new “kinship care leave” entitlement for employed kinship carers. Amendment 79 then seeks to creates a legal definition of “kinship care” to be used to establish eligibility for kinship care leave.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle, my noble friend Lord Watson of Invergowrie and, indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, himself, rightly talked about the amazing work done by kinship carers across the country, supporting children in times of greatest stress and need, in their own households, and in so doing relieving local authorities and the wider care system.

The Government recognise that the current support for working families needs improvement. We have already begun work to improve the system for kinship carers. We are defining kinship care through other legislation that is currently before this House, and later this year we will begin trialling a kinship allowance in several local authorities.

We are pleased to say that, for the first time, through the Government’s Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill, we will create a legal definition of kinship care for the purposes of specific duties within that Bill: the requirement to provide information about services to kinship families, and the duty to promote the educational achievement of children in kinship care. This will help to ensure that all local authorities interpret and apply the definition uniformly in relation to the new duty to publish information required, reducing ambiguity and potential disparities in information provided about support by different local authorities. This will, we hope, make life much easier at the sharp end of providing kinship care. It is a vital part of our commitment to keeping families together and supporting children to achieve and thrive.

I am also very pleased to say that the Government have recently announced a £40 million package to trial a new kinship allowance. This is the single biggest investment made by any Government in kinship care to date; indeed, it is the first of its kind. This financial commitment could transform the lives of vulnerable children who can no longer live at home. It would enable children to be raised within their extended families and communities. As we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, and others, it would minimise disruption to their formative years, allowing them to focus on schooling and building friendships—in short, having a normal life, as we want for all our children.

In addition, qualifying employed kinship carers may already benefit from various workplace rights aimed at supporting employees in managing work alongside caring responsibilities. These include a day one right to time off for dependants, which grants a reasonable amount of unpaid leave to deal with unexpected emergencies involving a child or dependant; the right to request flexible working; and unpaid parental leave, which, through this Bill, we are making a day one right.

Employees may not automatically have parental responsibility as a result of being a kinship carer, but they can acquire parental responsibility through different legal methods such as a special guardianship order. The Government have also committed to a review of the parental leave system to ensure that it best supports all working families. This review will be conducted separately from the Employment Rights Bill, and work is already under way on planning for its delivery.

Amendment 77 would provide foster carers with one week of leave every 12 months. As we have heard, foster carers play a life-changing role in the lives of children who need a safe and supportive environment. At times when young people are facing significant challenges, foster parents offer not only care and security but emotional support and consistency. I pay tribute to all those who step forward to provide the essential service of foster-caring—not least, as we have heard, the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, who has now changed his place but is very much with us in the Chair.

It is important to highlight that a range of workplace rights already exists to help employees who take on the responsibilities of fostering. From their first day on the job, employees have the legal right to take unpaid time off in emergency situations involving their dependents. This enables them to respond swiftly to sudden issues, such as arranging care for a foster child. If a foster carer is looking after a child with a long-term illness or disability, they are entitled to carer’s leave. This provides them with up to a week of unpaid leave in a 12-month period, to manage healthcare needs or attend appointments. Those fostering with the intention of adopting may be eligible for paid adoption leave, provided they meet the necessary criteria. In addition, all employees are entitled to submit a request for flexible working arrangements from day one of their employment. Given that these existing provisions go a long way to help foster carers to balance work and their foster care responsibilities, it does not seem right to add a new entitlement without a proper assessment of the need for it and the impact it might have.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 8th May 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hunt of Wirral]

19A: Clause 1, page 10, line 3, at end insert—
(c) in determining whether it was reasonable to enter into a limited-term contract, regard must be had to the employer’s operational circumstances and information available at the time the contract was made, including—(i) genuine short-term business needs or uncertainty,(ii) seasonal, project-based, or event-based fluctuations,(iii) relevant financial or staffing forecasts, and(iv) industry norms or practices relating to temporary contracts.(d) a decision to enter into a limited-term contract must not be considered unreasonable solely because subsequent business conditions changed in a manner not reasonably foreseeable at the time the contract was entered into.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment clarifies that the reasonableness of entering into a limited-term contract should be assessed based on the employer’s operational context and the information available at the time of contracting. It lists specific factors that may be relevant to that assessment and states that unforeseeable changes in business conditions after the fact should not, by themselves, render a decision unreasonable.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, with Amendments 19A, 20 and 21 in my name and in the name of my noble friend Lord Sharpe, we return to guaranteed hours. As drafted, our concern is that the Bill risks creating rigidity which does not properly reflect the real-world operational needs of businesses across key sectors of our economy, particularly retail, hospitality and tourism, all of which contain seasonal work.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thought I had already offered to have further discussions, but I take the noble Lord’s point.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I think my noble friend Lord Lucas and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, were looking for the draft regulations. I do not think I need to remind the Committee of my declaration of interests; at Second Reading, I reminded the House that I am still a practising solicitor. It is no accident that, last week, City AM—a newspaper circulated widely through the City—said that the Bill is the biggest boost for the legal profession that anyone had ever seen. Many more lawyers will be needed to wade through the complexities of the Bill.

In particular, as my noble friend just pointed out, we are constantly debating the Government’s power to introduce regulations, but Parliament is not allowed to see those regulations when it passes the primary legislation that gives Ministers the power, after consultation, to do whatever they wish whenever they wish to do it. We are going to have this time and again in this series of debates. Surely it is right that, if the Government are taking the power to introduce detail—in particular by amending primary legislation—we should see that detail, if only in draft, before we decide to give that power to Ministers.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I do not know whether I am allowed to intervene on this, but I wonder whether the noble Lord heard the Minister say that the Government are consulting on draft regulations. Perhaps he might ask the Minister to share those draft regulations with us during the process of consultation.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

I completely agree and am very grateful to the noble Lord, who introduced the whole concept of “lumpy”. As well as “lumpy”, we are all talking about “flexible” and he also said “fluctuating”.

This has been a very helpful debate. I particularly enjoyed my noble friend Lord Moynihan of Chelsea describing the history of the introduction of the minimum wage and how it gave rise to zero-hours contracts in the first place. It is a reminder that we have to be careful every time we take a key step down the road to creating more employment law, as we have to be mindful of the consequences.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, that we have to keep thinking of the start-ups and scale-ups, and the effect that this legislation will have on them. It was good that my noble friend Lady Noakes reminded us of the truth behind the Low Pay Commission 2018 Report that small and micro-businesses, as she put it to the Committee, need flexibility. My noble friend Lady Coffey reminded us that one’s job quite often depends on whether it is raining, as she put it. I think it was Mark Twain who once wrote that, in England, everyone talks about the weather but no one ever does anything about it. It is a fact that demand often fluctuates according to the weather and this was a good reminder of that.

I welcome the speech from the noble Lord, Lord Hendy. His four points were key; I accept them and will carefully ponder each one—particularly his point about escape routes. Our purpose—mine and that of my noble friend Lord Sharpe of Epsom—is to ensure that we do not need escape routes, because we will get a law that fits the way in which the economy can grow and be more competitive. That is what it is all about. It is not about short-term contracts being the answer here and another form of contract being the answer there. Most employers want stability so that they can look forward with confidence.

How right the noble Lord was to remind us of the importance of small and medium-sized enterprises. It must surely be a worry in his mind as to the effect this onerous Bill will have on those small and medium-sized enterprises looking to grow and expand that do not have an HR department that can set out for them exactly the way ahead through all the bureaucratic routes they have to follow. They want to be able to grow and expand without carefully checking which rulebook applies. They, of course, always allow bereavement leave. All the employers I have known, when there was a tragedy in a member of their workforce’s family—I am not talking about just my clients but across the whole sector—did, of course, allow people time off. Therefore, we should not be establishing rigidity.

This is where I find myself in total agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Fox: we do not want a two-tier system. However, as my noble friend Lady Noakes pointed out on our previous Committee day, there are various tiers already in the tax system. The exemption I sought in Amendment 21 surely does not in any way undermine the rights of workers but gives the Bill the flexibility it needs to succeed in practice. We have heard in this debate and from businesses across the country that a rigid one-way system for guaranteed hours simply does not reflect the way in which large parts of our economy function. Retail, hospitality, tourism, logistics, seasonal industries—all rely on flexible staffing, and they operate in environments that can shift rapidly, sometimes overnight.

I plead again with the Minister that these amendments provide a narrow, principled route for employers to propose changes: not to walk away from commitments but to respond when there is a genuine and material change in business operations. No retaliation, no loopholes, just a basic safeguard to ensure that businesses are not locked into obligations that are no longer viable.

Let us be honest, if employers are not able to make changes in response to real pressures—a drop in demand, a loss of control, over-capacity—they are far less likely to offer guaranteed hours in the first place. That is not speculation; it is what we are hearing from so many of those making representations about the Bill at the present time. The result is clear: fewer jobs offered, fewer guaranteed hours and fewer opportunities, especially for the very people who rely on flexible and part-time work. That means young people, students—who we will come to in a moment—workers with disabilities, carers and, of course, those trying to get their foot on the ladder.

Finally, I agree with my noble friend Lord Sharpe that it would be helpful to sit down with the Minister and her colleagues to see if we can find a way through. Otherwise, we shall have to return to this on Report. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 19A withdrawn.

Moved by

[Lord Hunt of Wirral]

19B: Clause 1, page 10, line 26, at end insert—
“(13) The duty to offer guaranteed hours under Section 27BA(1) does not apply to workers who are full-time students.”Member's explanatory statement
This subsection provides that the duty to offer a guaranteed hours arrangement under Section 27BA(1) does not apply to workers who are full-time students.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, as I indicated, we now return to students and the guaranteed-hours exemption for full-time students. Amendment 19B is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Sharpe of Epsom.

At Second Reading, I heard the Government’s intention, as part of their growth agenda, to get young people back to work who are not in education, employment or training—referred to as NEETs. Retailers provide flexible and part-time jobs tailor-made for people coming off benefits and the nearly 1 million 16 to 24 year-old NEETs. However, the evidence available clearly shows that the guaranteed-hours reforms, as currently drafted, fail to realise the realities of student employment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a useful debate on the subject of those who may be made exempt from the scope of the right to guaranteed hours. First off, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that it is quite right that the Government have a detailed plan to get young people into work and training. Of course, we want to provide new opportunities for all young people, and we are determined to do that.

Amendment 19B in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, seeks to take workers who are full-time students out of the scope of the right to guaranteed hours. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that the Government appreciate that zero-hours contracts or those sorts of arrangements can work well for many full-time students, who desire the flexibility that they provide. We have heard that from around the Chamber this afternoon. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, talked about term-time or seasonal work, but I urge him to look back through the previous debates we have had and the comments I have made, because there are a variety of ways in which employers can offer that flexibility of contract and the limited-terms contracts that could address those term-time only or seasonal work issues. I am not persuaded of his argument in that regard.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Lawlor and Lady Coffey, that there are workers who nevertheless are full-time students, and they can still experience that one-sided flexibility, similarly to the workers who are studying part-time. It seems disproportionate to exclude workers from the scope of that right simply on the basis that they are enrolled in full-time studies. Full-time students may value guaranteed hours to help them manage their job around their studies or arrange their childcare in the same way as those in full-time work.

I think there is an assumption in this debate that we are talking only about a particular age group of people and that it is a group of young people who are earning some extra beer money. This is far from the case. Many full-time students are mature students with family or other caring responsibilities, or even simply with rental or mortgage commitments. For those people, guaranteed hours can be a financial lifeline. According to a 2024 TUC poll, the majority—80% of students on zero-hours contracts—also reported that they had experienced difficulties managing study and education alongside their work. They certainly, in this generation, try to manage both of those a lot more than they did in my generation, and it is now much more expected that young people will work alongside their study. Many of those students want the opportunity to have regular hours to avoid the burden of incurring long-term student debt, which they would otherwise take into their ongoing working life. As we have said, it is entirely up to the student to say what is right for them, but there are very good reasons why the guaranteed hours should apply to all people and we should not make an exemption for students.

However, as we noted, flexibility for workers is important and the Government are not seeking to change that, where workers value that flexibility and have some benefit from a zero-hours contract. As I say, that is why workers who are full-time students and want to retain their zero-hours contracts or arrangements will be able to do so by rejecting the guaranteed-hours offer. They can accept it or reject it.

However, it is the Government’s view that they should be able to choose, based on their individual circumstances, whether to accept a guaranteed-hours offer, rather than being denied that right, as the noble Lord’s amendment seeks, purely on the basis of the fact that they are studying. I hope the noble Lord will look again at his amendment. I feel as if it is penalising young people and students in a way that feels quite unreasonable in the circumstances where everybody else is entitled to this right. Therefore, I hope he will be prepared to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, this has been a valuable debate; I agree with the Minister. Indeed, I welcomed her admission that zero-hours contracts work very well for students and are valued by them. I was interested in the TUC survey. All the surveys I have seen so far tell this Committee that full-time students do not want to lose zero-hours contracts.

It may be that the Minister will say, “Why is this amendment necessary, because they will not request full-time employment?” However, under the Bill, the employer has to work out how the business will be able to offer someone on a zero-hours contract full-time employment as and when they request it. It comes later, of course, when we are moving amendments, that we can say that it should not be the duty of the employer to give the opportunity of full-time employment; it should be the right to request full-time employment. What I think we are arguing about is whether all employers will have to go through the process in advance of any request being received. Under this legislation, they have to work out how they will be able to respond positively to an offer.

My noble friend Lady Lawlor shared the real-life experience and the way in which various students have taken advantage of these contracts. But what if they are not going to be offered them and given the opportunity of working as and when, in the flexible, lumpy way they want to organise their studies, as my noble friend Lord Jackson of Peterborough, pointed out? I thank him for going down memory lane; it was a fascinating glimpse of life as a stacker. I suppose all of us will remember what we did as students. I volunteered. I crossed Whiteladies Road in Bristol and offered my services to the BBC. The BBC took me on as a freelance newsreader.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

As everybody does.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

Yes. I had to turn up at 5 am and then read the news.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I am excited by the noble Lord’s anecdote, as I was by other noble Lords’ anecdotes, but would he perhaps concede that that was several years ago and the employment market, and indeed the student body, might have changed somewhat since then?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

Sadly, yes. I was on a student grant and they were abolished, so I cannot draw too many analogies. My noble friend enticed me down memory lane.

I just wanted to see what the adverse effect of this amendment might be if we were to exclude full-time students. My noble friend Lady Coffey quite rightly reminded us that there is such an exemption in other legislation, such as that around universal credit. Therefore, the Minister will not be blazing a new trail; she will merely be responding to the very fact that, under legislation, full-time students do not necessarily fit into the pattern laid down by the Bill.

I am sure we will return to this. In the meantime, we can hardly wait for this meeting with the Minister, in which she will take us through the way this will all operate to cover flexible and lumpy employment. While reserving the right to return to the issue on Report, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 19B withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

Although the noble Lord expects me to give him a specific timeframe, I cannot do so now. I will consult with my officials and come back to him.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

On the first day in Committee, we already discussed the implementation plan of the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch. We then moved on to discuss the draft implementation plan, and the noble Baroness gave us a commitment. Can the the noble Lord, Lord Leong, update that commitment? By when will we see the draft implementation plan?

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

I give the noble Lord my commitment that it is very much a work in progress.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Hunt of Wirral]

33: Schedule 1, page 167, leave out lines 28 to 30 and insert—
“(2) Determining whether reasonable notice of a shift was given must include an consideration of—(a) whether the work-finding agency offered the shift to the agency worker as soon as reasonably practicable after receiving confirmed information about the shift from the hirer in accordance with Regulation 18 of the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003 (S. I. 3319/2003);(b) any time reasonably required by the agency to carry out suitability assessments in accordance with those Regulations.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment clarifies how “reasonable notice” should be assessed for agency workers. It ensures that the work-finding agency must offer the shift to the worker as soon as reasonably possible after receiving confirmed details from the hirer, and after the agency has conducted suitability assessments, in line with relevant regulations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, as we now move to consider reasonable notice in agency work, I will speak to Amendments 33 and 36 to 38.

Unfortunately, and despite all their show of consultation, I believe the Government have failed to realise how agencies operate in the labour market, so once again the drafting of the Bill shows the failure of a one-size-fits-all approach. The challenge we face in the context of the Bill is clear. Work-finding agencies operate in a highly dynamic and often unpredictable environment, where the flow of information from hirers is essential in matching workers to available shifts.

This brings us to the core concern. Agencies often rely on information from hirers about the availability and cancellation of assignments. Without timely and sufficient details from hirers, agencies cannot predictably or properly fulfil their role. Therefore, any new obligation to provide reasonable notice for agency workers must consider the time taken for agencies to receive this confirmed information and make the necessary arrangements and assessments.

Regulation 18 of the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003 lays down that an agency cannot

“introduce or supply a work-seeker to a hirer unless the agency or employment business has obtained sufficient information”

to assess the suitability of the worker for the role in question. The issue here, therefore, is straightforward. Agency workers often find themselves without income as a consequence of cancellations initiated by hirers, yet agencies are held financially liable for those decisions, even though they have no control over the cancellations.

To illustrate the risk, let me provide a scenario. A work-finding agency places an agency worker with a hirer for a shift. However, due to unforeseen circumstances, the hirer cancels the shift at short notice. The agency, having no control over the cancellation, is still required to compensate the worker. The financial burden therefore falls on the agency, despite the cancellation being the decision of the hirer.

How will this amendment help to ensure that small and medium-sized agencies are not disproportionately impacted—that is what we seek to do here—bearing in mind the financial responsibility associated with hirer-induced cancellations, particularly when the business in question may already be financially vulnerable? Do the Government believe that it is justified to place the financial burden of a cancellation or curtailment on the agency when the failure to provide notice lies entirely with the hirer?

I believe that the Minister understands the complexities of the agency-worker relationship, but the Bill in its present form does not make proper allowance. How do the Government propose to monitor and enforce the full accountability of hirers for failures in notice arrangements? This is an issue that has to be faced, given the rigidity of the legislation we are required to consider under this Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

My Lords, I am pleased to speak to this group of amendments, which seek to clarify the framework governing agency workers, and I have some sympathy with the views of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, on this matter. It seems to me that a third person looking into this process will see the Labour Party trying to protect employees and give them 100% rights and the Conservatives trying to ensure that small and other businesses have a level playing field to employ, create jobs and grow the economy, which I thought was the Government’s objective. I wonder why, with this employment Bill, we cannot get a little closer to dealing with the mechanics.

The answer that the Minister gave to my probing amendment baffled me. I wanted to get up to ask him to explain what he said to me. Millions of people who listened to it or who read Hansard tomorrow will not have a clue. As my lumpy noble friend has said in previous debates, we seek clarity before the Act comes into power. We need to know these things. I spent four years on the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. The watchword on that committee was quite clear: do not give Ministers unfettered powers. What is in the tin of a Bill is what it says on the front of the tin of a Bill. I wonder whether this tin will say “tomatoes” but when you open it, you will have carrots—a problem for somebody that does not eat carrots.

Running through this group of amendments, we on these Benches are trying to bring the parties together to understand that it is a two-way thing. I have been a committed trade unionist for 25 years. I have also run a business and employed 20 people. Those two things are compatible, but they are complicated, because you have different pressures from a different standpoint. As with all legislation, we try to move it through by being sensible and finding common ground for what the trade union movement wants, what the Government want and what employers want. I had guests in yesterday who were asking about the Bill. I roughly outlined it, and they could not believe it. They employ 30 people. They said, “We can’t afford HR, we can’t afford lawyers, we can’t afford for people to take us to tribunals. We just want to employ people, make a small profit and grow the business”. I cannot understand how this has become so complicated.

On Amendment 33, concerning the interpretation of “reasonable notice” when shifts are offered to agency workers, the aim appears to be to require agencies to make offers promptly once details are confirmed by the hirer and all the checks have been completed. While this may be an attempt to bring greater clarity, I question whether that proposal and that language fully address the practical realities of agency work. The intention may be sound, but there is a risk of replacing one form of ambiguity with another. That said, for agency workers some degree of predictability and transparency is important and long overdue.

Amendment 36 introduces the idea of joint liability between work-finding agencies and hirers when a shift is cancelled or curtailed at short notice. There is merit in exploring whether a shared responsibility could lead to fairer outcomes, particularly when neither party should be able to shift all risk on to the other. Equally, it is important to consider how such provision would work in practice and whether it risks disincentivising the use of agency labour altogether.

Amendment 37 proposes that compensation should be triggered only when a shift has been formally confirmed, rather than relying on the more subjective “reasonable belief” test. I appreciate the effort to bring objectivity to a murky area, but workers should not be left guessing whether an assurance from an agency amounts to a genuine commitment. We need to understand how this might interact with the fast-moving nature of some temporary staffing such as seasonal work or that connected with the weather. Ambiguity in the current framework serves no one, least of all the workers.

Finally, Amendment 38 provides that the agency would not be liable to pay compensation where the hirer fails to give appropriate cancellation notice. This is arguably a fairer allocation of risk, as agencies should not be penalised for the failure of others. However, it must be clear that such changes would not weaken the overall protections intended for the worker.

While these amendments raise important issues around the treatment of agency workers, I am not yet convinced that they strike the right balance in all aspects. There is a risk that in seeking to impose clearer structures, we introduce new complexities and unintended burdens. I think that this is what the Government are trying to say. Nevertheless, the underlying objectives—clarity, fairness and accountability—are ones that we should continue to pursue. Any changes to the framework must support clearer obligations and deliver fairer outcomes, for the workers and for the agencies and hirers. If these amendments highlight anything, it is the pressing need for the Government to offer clarity and consistency in this area.

--- Later in debate ---

So, the Bill includes provisions in new paragraph 27 to enable agencies to recover costs from the hirer, but only where the arrangement between the agency and hirer was entered into no later than two months from Royal Assent and not modified since. The Government consider this the right approach to protect contractual freedom while ensuring timely payments for agency workers. It will protect agencies in existing arrangements from being liable for payments that they were not responsible for incurring. I hope those responses reassure the noble Lord and that he can withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, this has been a helpful short debate. I join with the noble Lord, Lord Goddard of Stockport, in seeking clarity, fairness and consistency. The Minister has given us some answers to the questions we posed, but it is just another example of where it is so important to think through the issues, as they affect all those who are in any way covered by the Bill. We will need to return to this matter during the further passage of the Bill to ensure that my objective and that of the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, is fulfilled—namely, that the provisions offer a fair and workable solution for all the parties involved.

Lastly, in an unguarded moment, the Minister, in responding to the previous amendment, said that the draft implementation plan was “a work in progress” and that he was considering it with his colleagues. I make an offer on behalf of all in the Committee: we would be willing to help this work in progress by looking carefully through the first draft of the implementation plan, while accepting that it may not be the final draft. At least it would give us an idea of what is in the Government’s mind as to implementing rather complicated provisions in the Bill, which are currently shrouded in some degree of mystery as to what they will bring forward in secondary legislation.

I just repeat what we have said several times in the debate so far: when you amend primary legislation through secondary legislation, it is far better, in our view, to have those amendments in the Bill rather than being left to some further process—admittedly, consultation—that would then amend that primary legislation through secondary legislation. Like the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, I too have served on the other committees of this House, which find that Governments perhaps do not give secondary legislation the priority it needs but should never seek to amend primary legislation through secondary legislation. Many of our committees have said that time and again. If we could see the first draft of the implementation plan, we could assist the Minister and his colleagues to get this Bill right. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 33 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Hunt of Wirral]

62: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause—
“Impact assessment: sections 1 to 8(1) The Secretary of State must conduct a review of—(a) the impact of sections 1 to 8 on the operation of employment tribunals, and(b) the ability of employment tribunals to manage any increase in applications resulting from those sections.(2) The Secretary of State must lay the review made under subsection (1) and the Government’s response to the review before Parliament.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new clause would require the Secretary of State to conduct a review of the impact on the employment tribunals of the Bill’s provisions on zero hours workers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, we now move to consider the impact assessments, or lack of them. Amendment 62, which I will speak to first, considers the impact on employment tribunals of the zero-hour contract provisions. Amendment 63 would require an impact assessment within six months, specifically for the hospitality sector, the retail sector and the health and social care sector. I greatly welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, who has kindly given her name to that amendment, along with my noble friend Lord Sharpe of Epsom.

Earlier this week we heard, and it was reported in the Financial Times, that the UK employment tribunal backlog had hit record levels. Some 49,800 cases were waiting to be heard by an employment tribunal at the end of the final quarter of last year, up from 39,000 in the same period of 2023. That is according to data from HM Courts & Tribunals Service. Earlier this afternoon, the Government refused to accept Amendment 21, which I spoke to and which would allow businesses to make a dismissal in the case of genuine business needs. By rejecting this amendment, as well as any suggestion from businesses throughout their consultation, I think that the Government are risking overloading the employment tribunal system even more than is the case today.

Moreover, it is worth noting that the Government have previously tabled so-called technical amendments that would have required employers to make work available to zero-hour workers. This alone highlights how impractical the current zero-hour contract provisions are when viewed through the lens of tribunal risk. It is deeply concerning, in particular, that the Regulatory Policy Committee has given a red rating to the Government’s impact assessment on day-one rights over unfair dismissal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Hunt, Lord Fox and Lord Londesborough, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Fox and Lady Stowell, for their contributions, and thank the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, for tabling Amendments 62 and 63. These amendments cover the impact of the Bill’s zero-hour contracts provisions on the employment tribunal system and on specific sectors.

Let me place on record that the Government recognise the vast contribution that the hospitality, retail and health and social care sectors make to the nation’s economy, and that they employ millions of people. I will give some examples. The hospitality sector currently employs 330,000 people on zero-hours contracts, which makes up 28.9% of the workforce. The retail and wholesale sector employs close to 90,000 people, equating to 7.8% of the workforce. The health and social care sector employs 190,000 people, contributing 16.5% of the workforce.

Zero-hours contracts offer flexibility for some workers, but evidence indicates that they have been exploited by certain UK companies, leading to job insecurity and limited work rights. This pro-business, pro-worker Bill aims to address these issues by effective enforcement and by closing the loopholes, to ensure fair treatment for all workers so that we can grow our economy.

Amendment 63 seeks to insert a new clause requiring the Secretary of State to publish an assessment of the impact of the zero-hours provisions in the Bill on specific sectors of the economy within six months of the passage of the Bill. As the Committee will know, the Government have already published a very comprehensive set of 27 impact assessments, spanning close to 1,000 pages. These are based on the best available evidence of the sectors likely to be affected by these measures. As mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Fox, the RPC’s opinions refer to the evidence and analysis presented in the impact assessment and not to the policy itself. Our impact assessments provide initial analysis of the impacts that could follow. We will therefore be updating and refining them as we further develop the policy and continue consultation and engagement.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

Can the noble Lord respond to the red rating which the RPC has given the Government’s impact assessment? Are the Government continuing discussions with the Regulatory Policy Committee to try to reverse that red rating, to meet the necessary requirements that the Regulatory Policy Committee imposes on all Governments? When will we see an end to the red rating and an acceptance that the Government have learned from the experience and judgment of the RPC?

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord. This impact assessment will continue. I will be mentioning later in my speech that there will be further impact assessments. Regarding his specific point about the RPC’s rating, I will write to him.

We recognise the importance of ensuring that the impacts of these policies on workers, businesses and the economy are considered, and that analysis is published outlining this. We already intend to publish further analysis, both in the form of an enactment impact assessment when the Bill secures Royal Assent and further assessments when we consult on proposed regulations, to meet our Better Regulation requirements. In addition, we are committed to consulting with businesses and workers ahead of setting out secondary legislation, as we have said on previous groups, including those from the sectors listed in the amendment.

Amendment 62 would insert a new clause to require the Secretary of State to undertake and publish a review of the impact on employment tribunals of the zero-hours provisions in the Bill. The detailed package of analysis, to which I referred a moment ago, also includes an illustrative impact assessment of the Bill’s measures on employment tribunal cases. We intend to refine this over time by working closely with the Ministry of Justice, His Majesty’s Courts & Tribunals Service, ACAS and wider stakeholders. We recognise the importance of assessing the impact of these policies on the enforcement system and have worked in partnership with these organisations throughout policy development.

We already intend to publish further analysis, both in the form of an enactment impact assessment when the Bill secures Royal Assent and further assessments when we consult on proposed regulations, as I mentioned earlier. In the meantime, the Government are taking various steps to increase capacity within the employment tribunal system. For example, ACAS currently provides information to employees and employers on employment law, and early conciliation for potential employment tribunal claims. It also offers post-claim conciliation. The Government have taken various steps to increase capacity, such as the deployment of legal caseworkers and recruitment of additional judges.

HMCTS continues to invest in improving tribunal productivity through the deployment of legal officers to actively manage cases, the development of modern case management systems and the use of remote hearing technology. We are committed to looking at what more we can do in this area, working with the Ministry of Justice and wider stakeholders such as ACAS, as I just mentioned. We are already helping many employers and workers to reach settlement before they need to go on to a further hearing.

Our work will also include looking at opportunities for the fair work agency to take on enforcement, where that would help both workers and businesses reach resolution more quickly without needing to go to an employment tribunal.

I refer to the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, about gaps in the Bill. The Bill does not have any gaps. Some elements of the Bill await engagement or future engagement and consultation with stakeholders, so that we can ensure that the policies work for all involved.

I hope I have reassured your Lordships and that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

I take the noble Lord’s point. At the rate the Bill is going, we may reach recess before we come back again to discuss it further.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, that was a very significant admission by the Minister, for which we thank him. We will need the recess to rethink quite a lot of the Bill.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, that this is a gap-filled Bill. I know that the Minister is told in his brief to say there are no gaps, but there are gaps. Wherever you look in the Bill, there is further work to be done before the Government will say what they will do. It takes huge powers—Henry VIII powers—to amend primary legislation through statutory instruments. That is a hugely significant step, and we as a reasonably sensible Chamber cannot possibly allow the Government to get away with that.

You cannot get away with saying to Parliament, “We’re not going to give you the detail of what we’re going to do. Indeed, we’re not going to tell you what we’re going to do, because we’re going to consult and then we will do it by statutory instrument”. That is not the way to legislate. The contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, has been very helpful. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, for reminding us about the creative industry—the gig industry.

As the noble Baroness reminded us, we have to have a relevant impact assessment so that Parliament can see what effect the Bill will have on a rapidly changing workforce. The workforce has changed dramatically over the last 15 to 20 years and the modern landscape has changed substantially.

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I appreciate what he has said. We are all for parliamentary scrutiny of the Bill—we welcome it. We welcome every single amendment and clause being scrutinised. The Government believe that the delegated powers in the Bill are necessary. I am pleased, as the noble Lord will have noted, that the DPRRC found it

“heartening that in a Bill with so many … powers it has only found four on which to raise concerns”.

The Government will respond formally in due course to the DPRRC.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

I just happen to have the report of the DPRRC here, and it does raise serious concerns. One of the concerns it has constantly raised about all Governments is that they should not amend primary legislation by secondary legislation. They should be upfront about what they are going to do, and change.

It may well be that the Minister will take great comfort in the fact that there are only 18 black lines of criticism—18. I hope that he will take the advantage that has been given to him on all sides to take the Bill away and try to find a better solution.

We must not forget that the Bill I originally saw at Second Reading in the House of Commons has changed substantially: 160 amendments were tabled on Report in the Commons. They were not scrutinised line by line—they could not be, because they were produced at the last moment.

The Government have to recognise that, as my noble friend Lady Stowell said, it may well be that the Bill is going to disincentivise a whole range of employment situations, which is going to have a massive impact on the whole employment scene. It may well be that my noble friend is right that it is going to create more problems. I recognise that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, has already got a major concession concerning the utilisation of the recess, but we need to pause and say to the Government, can we now see the overall impact assessment and, in particular, have an undertaking that they will continue to scrutinise carefully the effect of all this legislation on the employment market before it is too late?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

I was looking to a longer holiday for us all to scrutinise the Bill. There is no need for the Minister to keep clarifying his comments. I just take them at face value, and it is an undertaking on his part to reflect on all the issues that have been raised, particularly the impact assessment. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 62 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Hunt of Wirral]

68: Clause 10, page 37, line 9, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—
“(b) in subsection (2), for “four” substitute “two”.”

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 68, 69, 70 and 71 standing in my name. I will speak to Amendment 68 first. It concerns the removal of the three-day waiting period for statutory sick pay. While we recognise the principle of supporting workers during periods of ill health, we also have to acknowledge the pressures that this places on employers, particularly small businesses which, unlike the state, bear the direct cost of statutory sick pay.

The original waiting period served as a guard-rail, ensuring that statutory sick pay was reserved for genuine and sustained periods of incapacity. Its removal would risk increasing claims for short-term absences, many of which might previously have gone unclaimed or been resolved informally.

The proposal in the Bill to abolish waiting days for statutory sick pay for all workers, including those on temporary contracts and working via employment agencies, introduces an additional cost burden for many small and medium-sized recruitment firms in particular, especially in a period of stagnant growth.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am pleased that we have moved on and that we are now debating the Bill’s important provisions to improve the provision of statutory sick pay for millions of people across the country. I therefore thank the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, for tabling Amendments 68, 69, 70 and 71 on this topic and speaking to them. These amendments would significantly change the statutory sick pay measures in the Bill.

The pandemic exposed just how precarious work and life are for those on low incomes, with many forced to choose between their health and financial hardship. Strengthening statutory sick pay is part of the Government’s manifesto commitment to implement our plan to make work pay, ensuring that the statutory net of sick pay is available to those who need it most. These changes are important. Estimates indicate that up to 33% of influenza-like illnesses are acquired in the workplace. One sick employee coming into work can lead to 12% of the workforce becoming sick, according to WPI Economics’ modelling.

The changes to remove the waiting period and lower earnings limit from the SSP system will therefore benefit employers by reducing presenteeism, which in turn can lead to overall productivity increases and can contribute to a positive work culture that better helps recruit and retain staff. This can help to reduce the overall rate and cost of sickness absence to businesses, and also contribute to reducing the flow of employees into economic inactivity.

I will turn first to Amendments 68 and 70. Removing the waiting period is essential to ensure that all eligible employees can take the time off work they need to recover from being sick, regardless of whether they are an agency worker. Removing the waiting period will also better enable phased returns to work, which evidence shows can be an effective tool in supporting people with long-term health conditions to return to and stay in work. This change should help to reduce the overall rate and cost of sickness absence to businesses, contributing to reducing the flow of employees into economic inactivity.

I regret that the noble Lord’s amendment would make this more challenging, as it would mean that employees would have to take two consecutive days off to be eligible for statutory sick pay. I do, however, understand the noble Lord’s concerns about the impact of the waiting period removal on businesses, but if employers have the right policies and practices in place—and most good employers do—the risks of inappropriate absenteeism can, of course, be mitigated. Crucially, the additional cost to business of the SSP reforms is around a relatively modest £15 per employee. We have been lobbied from both directions on these provisions because, for example, many on our own Benches would say that the rates we are proposing here should be much higher. I am sure they will make their concerns heard at some point during the passage of the Bill. It is not a great deal of money—as I say, it is £15 per employee—and it is certainly aimed at the lower rate that could be available.

On Amendment 69 regarding agency workers, one of the fundamental principles of the Bill is to ensure that people who work through employment agencies and employment businesses have comparable rights and protections to their counterparts who are directly employed. Amendments that limit the entitlement of agency workers would undermine this objective and have no reasonable justification. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said that employment agencies have more of an arm’s-length arrangement with their agency workers, but I would say the opposite: in fact, employment agencies are in a powerful relationship over their agency workers, meaning that those workers are less likely to abuse such a scheme.

Amendment 71 seeks to limit the maximum entitlement of SSP for employees with multiple employers so that they would receive no more statutory sick pay than they would be entitled to if they worked for only one employer. However, this would be administratively very complicated to deliver for businesses, particularly SMEs, and carries a high risk of SSP being miscalculated and employees being underpaid. It would particularly harm the very lowest-paid people who are working a limited number of hours. I also question the necessity of such an amendment. As it stands, employees with more than one job can already receive SSP from their employers if they earn above the lower earnings limit. The measures in the Bill will not change that, and I regret that this amendment would impact only the lowest-paid employees.

That is all I have to say on this issue at this stage, and I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment on the basis of the assurance I have given.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise that the Minister says that she understands the concern that has been expressed. We are aware too that many agencies have raised with the Government the serious impact on small businesses and the risk of increased absenteeism. I believe their concerns are valid and I hope the Minister will continue to keep an open door for those agencies to perhaps respond in more detail directly to the Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness O’Grady of Upper Holloway (Lab)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, it would be very helpful if he could confirm and clarify that, in expressing a concern that removing the waiting days would lead to more and sporadic absenteeism, it is not being implied that workers are swinging the lead. If it was being implied, where is the evidence?

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

Of course it is not being implied. It is outrageous that the noble Baroness should think so and voice so in this debate, which has seen a very calm and careful consideration by the Minister, who sets a good example for us all. I hope the noble Baroness will follow it. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment 68 withdrawn.

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 5th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend Lord Frost, and I will speak very briefly. I am concerned about the Government’s likely resistance to this amendment being moved, because this goes to the very heart of what the Bill is about: proper parliamentary scrutiny and oversight.

We have had many debates about the Delegated Legislation Committee and its significant reservations about the enabling powers and Henry VIII powers which will potentially be discharged by Ministers. The kernel of the debate is: why should we of necessity default to just one regulatory regime? People like the noble Lord, Lord Fox, will say that it is our closest economic partner and, of course, it is absolutely logical.

I hesitate, because I know I will be accused of relitigating the Brexit battles, from which I have many scars on my back. However, the fact of the matter, is that, rightly or wrongly, we no longer have direct input into the design and execution of those regulations. So to put in primary legislation, with the background of the Delegated Legislation Committee expressing those significant reservations, a sub-clause which defaults to the position that any regulation, because it comes from the EU, is of necessity the right regulation for our country—in the context, as we have previously debated in Committee and on Report, of an expanding global economy where we will be trading with many different countries and different regulatory regimes outside the European Union—seems to me to be a mistake. On that basis, it is eminently reasonable and sensible for Parliament to have the opportunity to look in detail at these regulations via the affirmative procedure.

For that reason—I know the hour is late and there is other pressing business in the House—I ask Ministers to at least look at supporting this very important amendment on Third Reading. On that basis, I am delighted to support the amendment of my noble friend Lord Frost.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, to echo what my noble friend Lord Lansley has just said, we are reflecting at the moment on how this country is governed and the extent to which the Executive can be held to account.

In many ways we take pride in our committees. I know from what he has said in the past about government legislation that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has many times criticised what we describe as skeleton Bills. In effect, the Government are saying, “Please allow us to do whatever we eventually decide we would like to do, but give us that power now and we will then do it by secondary legislation”. Speaking as the immediate past Chair of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, I always worked very closely with my colleagues in the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Although my noble friend Lord Lansley said a few moments ago that the Government had introduced a number of amendments, they came back before the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which said, “That’s not enough”. So, in a way, we are now deciding whether or not the Government are right to ignore the unanimous report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee.

I turn to Amendments 48, 57 and 58 standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Sharpe. I commend my noble friend Lady Lawlor, and my noble friends Lord Frost, Lord Jackson of Peterborough and Lord Lansley, for all that they have said. But, to summarise, this is our last real opportunity to deal with what is in effect a skeleton Bill that allows an unacceptable transfer of power from an elected legislature to the Executive.

We welcome the amendments the Government have put forward, but let me quote from paragraph 8 of the unanimous report of 20 February from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, from which I have quoted before. Having considered all the issues, it said,

“these are limited changes that do not address the fundamental concern we have about the skeletal nature of this Bill”.

There is of course provision for consultation, which is warmly to be welcomed, but the committee said,

“consultation is not a substitute for Parliamentary scrutiny”.

Surely, we as a House must agree with that.

It is not enough simply to engage stakeholders behind closed doors while sidelining proper legislative oversight. The Bill in its current form creates a dangerous precedent. This Parliament is asked to cede control over critical regulatory decisions in favour of unchecked Executive power. That is surely not how this democracy should function. If the Government are serious about ensuring transparency, accountability and proper legislative oversight, they must surely go beyond mere consultation and commit to meaningful parliamentary scrutiny at every stage of the regulatory process.

In a moment we will hear from the noble Lord, Lord Leong. Will he allow me to quote him? In Committee on 20 November, he said this:

“Some regulations will relate to very minor technical changes, so it really would be taking up too much parliamentary time for that, whereas other regulations may need a full scrutiny, and we will have avenues for that”.—[Official Report, 20/11/24; col. 39.]


What I ask is—and I hope the Minister will reply in a moment—what are those avenues exactly? The Government are yet to provide any clarity at all on how they will distinguish between so-called minor technical changes and more significant regulatory shifts. They have yet to explain why the negative procedure will apply to all subsequent provisions. If some regulations will require full scrutiny, as the Minister acknowledged, why do his Government, in this Bill, predetermine that every future provision beyond the first use of the power will require the negative procedure?

The Government cannot state for a fact that all future provisions will be technical. Markets change, technology advances and legal interpretations, as all lawyers in this House know only too well, will shift. This is precisely why proper parliamentary scrutiny must remain in place for all product and metrology regulations, as recommended by a committee of this House. If the Government concede that some regulations may need full scrutiny then it follows that the affirmative procedure should apply in all cases. Anything less simply hands Ministers a blank cheque to determine the level of scrutiny after the fact, with Parliament left powerless to insist on proper oversight.

I said that I would refer to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, because I remember what he said. I looked it up when I heard he was going to be here. He said about the Medicines and Medical Devices Bill, admittedly in 2021:

“We are increasingly seeing the use of skeleton Bills and Henry VIII clauses. We really must come to a point where we say to the Government”—


I would add any subsequent Governments—

“that we will not put up with this any longer”.—[Official Report, 12/1/21; col. 657.]

As he reflects on his words, I hope he will offer some wise advice to his good colleague.

I urge the Government to reconsider their position and accept the DPRRC’s recommendation that powers should be constrained so that product regulations and metrology regulations are, in all cases, subject to affirmative procedure scrutiny. Surely that is the very least that is required to ensure proper democratic accountability.

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I will speak to the government amendment and respond to the debate. I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the development of the government amendment for raising in Committee the important matter of ensuring that there is appropriate parliamentary scrutiny of regulations made under the Bill.

I will touch first on the affirmative procedure. In the light of concerns from Peers, the DPRRC and the House of Lords Constitution Committee, Amendment 55 increases the number of provisions that will be subject to the affirmative procedure to include certain types of new or novel provisions. These provisions are product regulations made in relation to online marketplaces and where requirements are imposed for the first time on any new category of actors in the market. The amendment will ensure that appropriate parliamentary scrutiny is applied to new regulatory approaches for online marketplaces, and for regulations that place duties and product requirements on new supply chain actors for the first time, while maintaining the flexibility to make timely, uncontentious technical updates to existing regulations.

However, the Government accept that making regulations for new or novel matters makes the higher level of parliamentary scrutiny more appropriate. Therefore, when product regulations made under the Bill seek to impose a requirement on a new type of supply chain actor that is not otherwise listed in Clause 2(3), the affirmative procedure will apply the first time such requirements are laid.

I turn to Amendments 48, 56, 57 and 58. I thank all noble Lords for their concerns regarding the affirmative procedure. On Amendment 48, we discussed the importance of consultation last week, particularly in relation to the Government’s statutory consultation amendment. I do not really want to repeat these arguments, apart from saying that regulations brought forward under this Bill will have been informed by consultation with key stakeholders. Specifically, on Amendment 43A, our recently published code of conduct sets out that regulations under this Bill will be subject to assessment and engagement with an appropriate range of stakeholders, including scientific evidence where appropriate.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Hunt of Wirral]

48: Clause 9, page 9, line 33, at end insert—
“(5) Regulations made under this section that amend or replace primary legislation must be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.(6) Before making any regulations under this section, the Secretary of State must—(a) conduct a consultation for a period of no less than six weeks;(b) publish a statement outlining the purpose and necessity of the proposed regulations, the expected impact on businesses, consumers, and enforcement bodies, and the outcome of the consultation.(7) Within six months of any regulations made under this section which amend or repeal primary legislation, the Secretary of State must publish a review of the effect of that regulation and lay it before Parliament.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires that any regulations made under Clause 9 that amend or replace primary legislation be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I do not think that there is any need to detain the House very much longer, except to say one thing. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, was shouting from a sedentary position when I quoted him earlier. I just remind him that he said the only answer is the super-affirmative procedure. Does he remember that? That is what he advocated. All I am asking for this House to agree is that the affirmative procedure is the right approach. I do so, finally, by quoting a committee that I thought we all respected. The Delegated Powers Committee has looked at all the government amendments and, in a unanimous report, agreed by all the parties on the committee, concluded this:

“We would add that, even if the House were to agree to those delegations of power, in our view those powers should be constrained so that product regulations and metrology regulations are in all cases subject to affirmative procedure scrutiny”.


That is why I beg to move Amendment 48 and wish to test the opinion of the House.

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 26th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

My Lords, I will try to be brief on this set of government amendments, as outlined in the Marshalled List. They are largely intended to ensure absolute clarity and that the Bill covers a number of matters raised by noble Lords in Committee. Amendments 14 and 17 make clear that the Bill’s powers are able to set requirements on how products are installed in wider systems and on the people who carry out that installation. Many products do not operate in isolation and their safety can be significantly affected by how they are installed in the wider systems. As I explained in Committee, the Bill already enables requirements to be set on the installation of products. However, I accept that absolute clarity on this matter in the Bill is helpful.

Amendment 23 covers a similar matter. The Bill covers tangible products and the risks they present. Software is now a fundamental component of many physical products and can significantly affect their risk profile. Amendment 23 makes clear that software as a component of the physical product is included.

Amendments 50 and 51 relate to the definition of online marketplaces. These amendments reflect the points raised by noble Lords in Committee and aim to ensure that marketplaces that are part of a wider platform —such as Facebook Marketplace as part of Facebook—are captured. Our use of a broad and clear definition of online marketplaces in the Bill enables new requirements to be introduced in a flexible and proportionate way via secondary legislation by using the powers provided in the Bill—for instance, by tailoring specific requirements to particular online marketplace activities or business models.

On Amendment 67, which addresses aviation, in Committee my noble friend Lord Liddle raised the question of wider products used in aviation. The Department for Transport oversees a comprehensive body of legislation that extends beyond the finished aircraft to the whole system of components that make it up. The Government have no plans to create any kind of parallel regulatory framework. This amendment therefore clarifies that, alongside the exclusion of aircraft, the Bill does not apply to component products and parts in so far as they are used or designed for use in aircraft. As an exception to this, the amendment would allow for the Bill’s powers to be used in relation to unmanned aircraft that are toys, or for radio equipment used to operate or control unmanned aircraft.

It is useful to clarify that aviation safety products are exempted from the Bill, but we are aware of questions from industry about several other areas. We will always work closely with all sectors before bringing regulations, but it is not our intention to use the powers under the Bill to regulate where there are existing comprehensive product regulatory regimes—for example, in relation to transportable pressure equipment and ships and their equipment.

I hope I have been able to provide assurance to noble Lords and I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, while the Minister recovers his breath, we will all carefully reflect on every word that he has just said but, given the speed with which he delivered that speech, I hope he will forgive me if I do not respond in detail. I shall just deal with what we believe is the overly broad current definition of an “online marketplace”, as the scope could be inadvertent. I speak to Amendments 49 and 53 on behalf of my noble friend.

The current definition of an online marketplace would inadvertently capture a number of online services not thought of as marketplaces, such as search engines, online advertisements and price comparison websites. Potentially, even further removed services, such as app stores, could be captured by this proposed definition. This risks placing disproportionate requirements on services whose functionality is not what the Bill is intended to regulate and will require careful drafting of the necessary secondary legislation to avoid confusion and potential challenges. That is not guaranteed, however, due to the extensive delegation of powers and limited oversight provided by the Bill.

This broad scope will create unnecessary regulatory burdens on businesses that were never intended to be covered by the legislation. It could also discourage innovation and investment in digital services if companies fear that they will be subject to complex and costly compliance requirements. Our amended definition would therefore capture services that are not meant to be dealt with under the Bill but is more appropriate in its scope when it comes to goods and products, giving greater context and identifying the subjects of the sellers being provided, namely consumers and third-party sellers. I hope that gives an indication to the Minister of why we feel these amendments are required.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for their comments. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in the amendments that he is putting forward, really puts his finger on the problem and the challenge of defining an online marketplace. What was not an online marketplace yesterday can be one tomorrow. You can be looking at what starts off as a chat site where people exchange photographs, which suddenly becomes somewhere you can sell things. The problem that we therefore have, in being very specific in the definition, is that we create the loopholes for other people to use.

I am sympathetic to the problem that the noble Lord sets out, which is the inadvertent inclusion of other things, but the more we try to nail it down with a framework, the less likely we are to legislate for what is coming round the corner. I am very happy to have that discussion with the noble Lord. Perhaps there is a way of having something that can flexibly move, but we have all seen the changing world of online selling—it is absolutely changing every day. I am sympathetic, but sceptical that the amendment would do what we need it to do.

I co-signed government Amendments 23 and 51, which took on board issues that I brought forward in Committee. I thank the Minister for his reaction to that. Overall, with the exception of that key issue—marketplaces are where this is happening and we need a process whereby liability can be properly attributed, but I am convinced that primary legislation will not be the place to do that because of the changing world that we live in—and with those provisos, I think we need a way of moving forward that gives us that flexibility.

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 26th February 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hunt of Wirral]

2: Clause 1, page 1, line 3, leave out subsection (1)

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 2, I will speak also to Amendment 60, both standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Sharpe of Epsom. Amendment 2 seeks to remove the broad powers granted to the Secretary of State under “Product regulations”.

As my noble friend stated in Committee:

“Clause 1 grants wide-ranging powers to the Secretary of State to make regulations through statutory instruments, SIs, a process with limited parliamentary oversight. Such discretion risks undermining democratic accountability, as SIs are not subject to the same level of scrutiny as primary legislation”.—[Official Report, 20/11/24; col. GC 24.]


Unfortunately, since Committee, the Government, despite the valiant efforts of the Minister, have still failed to address this adequately.

I am very grateful for the tremendous amount of work that has been done on the Bill by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. In October last year, the DPRRC published its second report on the Bill after an evidence session with the Minister and his Commons colleague. The committee was not mollified and, on 28 October, published the following:

“In our view, the delegation to Ministers of law-making powers in this Bill involves legislative power shifting to an unacceptable extent from the democratically appointed legislature to the Executive”.


Having now had a chance to look at the Government’s recent concessions, the committee has just published its latest views, on 21 February. Its unanimous view is that

“these are limited changes that do little to address the significant concerns that we expressed about the Bill in our Reports of 15 and 28 October. The Government has not taken the opportunity to add flesh to the bones of this skeleton Bill … We remain of the view that … the delegation to Ministers of law-making powers in this Bill involves legislative power shifting to an unacceptable extent from the legislature to the Executive”.

Nothing, therefore, has changed.

Meanwhile, on 18 October our colleagues on the Constitution Committee also published a very scathing report. They unpicked the Government’s arguments that much of the existing law in these areas is already secondary legislation by pointing out that the transposition of EU law into domestic law by way of secondary legislation was previously constrained by Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972, which allowed for the use of delegated powers only to implement EU law, and that invariably this law had been subject to scrutiny by EU law-making institutions. They were backed up by the House of Commons European Scrutiny Committee, among others.

This Bill will replace those limited secondary powers with potentially open-ended ones. I do acknowledge—and the House must acknowledge—that the Government, and in particular the Minister, have moved a long way in terms of consultation and some use of affirmative powers. Nevertheless, the DPRRC noted on 21 February that,

“even if the House were to agree to those delegations of power, in our view those powers should be constrained so that product regulations and metrology regulations are in all cases subject to affirmative procedure scrutiny”.

This is not to oppose for the sake of opposition; it is a vital issue of principle. We take the view that, if two vitally important committees of this House express such serious reservations on more than one occasion, those reservations should be taken seriously. We accept, of course, that the Government have the right to disagree and to make their case—indeed, we did so in government on a number of occasions—but this Bill quite simply asks us to go too far.

It is not just the committees that think this. I speak, of course, as the immediate past chair of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. We have dealt so much in the past with the inadequacy of controls on the Executive so far as secondary legislation is concerned. I do not know whether the House will remember— I do not want to go too far back in history—but the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee published on 10 October 2022 Losing Impact: Why the Government’s Impact Assessment System is Failing Parliament and the Public. Then, on 2 February 2023, came Losing Control? The Implications for Parliament of the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill. Even more important was the report published as long ago as 24 November 2021—so this is a reflection on the previous Government—entitled Government by Diktat: A Call to Return Power to Parliament. I suppose that is what I am now asking for.

I do have an ally. My noble friend Lord Jackson of Peterborough has quoted very persuasively already, although he was unconstitutionally interrupted twice by my fellow Lord Hunt, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. This was totally contrary to the rulebook, as I understand it—but I hesitate to criticise because I am sure I have probably done the same thing myself. Report stage, as the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, quite correctly pointed out, is constrained. Here am I, asking everyone to pay attention to the views of our Select Committees; I should also ask everyone to pay attention to the Companion.

It is quite right. I saw the Attorney-General last night during the course of the votes and warned him that we would be quoting, as my noble friend did, from his Bingham Lecture. I thought it was an absolutely brilliant lecture. Indeed, it was so good that I circulated it at the time, as the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, will know, to all my fellow members of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and asked the clerk to make sure that all our Select Committees were made aware of what was, I felt, a brilliant speech by the Attorney-General.

--- Later in debate ---

I hope this assures noble Lords that the regulation-making powers in the Bill serve the interests of consumers and provide clarity for businesses, as indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, by allowing our product regulation framework to be responsive. Consequently, I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate. I thank the Minister for his kind tribute to me at the start of his remarks. We have had a good tour d’horizon. It reminds me of someone I always counted on in moments like this; we still hugely miss Lord Judge. He taught me so much about Henry VIII clauses. In fact, he told me things that I did not know as a practising solicitor. He was brilliant, and we miss him so much.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Fox—I read his contributions in Committee, particularly about the Delegated Powers Committee—that he was in total agreement, and I do not know what has happened. Perhaps we should have a consultation about a consultation. I will come back to what the Minister said in just a moment. The Attorney-General said that

“the new Government offers an opportunity for a reset in the way that Government thinks about these issues. This means … a much sharper focus on whether taking delegated powers is justified in a given case, and more careful consideration of appropriate safeguards”.

The one message that I take from this short debate—but one of great substance—is that we need to give further reflection to the Private Member’s Bill of the noble friend of the noble Lord, Lord Fox, the Statutory Instruments (Amendment) Bill. I made a special journey—I will not go into the detail—to support that Bill. My colleagues on the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee thought it was a breath of fresh air, but it met with a stonewall from the Government. If only the Government would just think again about how we deal with secondary legislation, so much of what we have been discussing would be unnecessary.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, how wounding it can be to describe this important constitutional debate as a wrecking amendment. I was giving the Minister an opportunity to come forward with some new proposals. He has failed to convince the Delegated Powers Committee. Are we to consign that committee’s further report to the rubbish tip? I will not; I will continue to return to its theme that the Government have got it wrong at the moment.

It is perfectly possible for the Government to come forward with something on Third Reading. If we pass Amendment 2 tonight—I am minded to test the opinion of the House—the Government have a real opportunity to listen even more closely to this latest report, which they have only just received from the committee. It was a unanimous report: Cross-Bench, Liberal Democrat, Conservative and Labour Peers all united in saying that the Government have got it wrong in producing what is in effect a skeletal Bill.

I am disappointed that the Minister, who had an opportunity to give more ground and to go away and consider this further, did not take that opportunity. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Lansley, who directly contradicted what the Minister has just said about the effect of this amendment, as it would not have that effect. His Amendment 4 is such a good amendment.

I am so surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, should come forward and oppose this. It flies in the face of many of the speeches he has made before. My noble friend Lord Deben—it is like old times; we worked together for 16 years in government—pointed out that we are on a slippery slope, and we just need to make the Government think again.

My noble friend Lord Jackson of Peterborough has a really good amendment in Amendment 39, as does my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond in Amendment 41. We have had such a good debate, and it is a shame that the Government have refused to think again. That is why, in my view, we should test the opinion of the House.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

My Lords, I must reinform the House that if Amendment 2 is agreed, I will not be able to call Amendment 3 or Amendment 4 by reason of pre-emption.

Operation Conifer

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, both noble Lords can get in; we have plenty of time. Shall we take the noble Baroness’s question first?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

If I may, I will look into the issues that the noble Baroness has raised and write to her with the detail very shortly in response.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, in declaring my interest as the immediate past chair of the Sir Edward Heath Charitable Foundation, I warmly welcome the Minister’s commitment to this House that he has an open mind, which I believe has tremendous support. But it is not just what is in the police files; there are a number of other matters that require scrutiny. The first is the fact that the former chief constable of Wiltshire, Mike Veale, has now been totally discredited. There is also the fact of the manner in which the police and crime commissioner was cut out of the whole investigation by the appointment of a so-called scrutiny committee, and then there is the fact that so many of the police logs at the entrance to Sir Edward Heath’s home, Arundells, were wantonly destroyed. All these matters require close investigation.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his comments. It draws me back to the point I put to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, on the suggestion of the Opposition Front Bench. The chief constable of Wiltshire rightly has the investigatory powers to investigate any matters that are of concern, including those raised by the noble Lord in relation to her police force, as indeed does the police and crime commissioner in response to this, who is a different police and crime commissioner to the one who was operational at the time. I would suggest that, whatever my reflections on these matters are—I will make those reflections—it would be helpful for the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, to raise those issues again with the current chief constable and the current police and crime commissioner.

Police: Joe Anderson

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Monday 15th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Well, I hear what my noble friend has to say. He has heard what I have had to say on this subject on at least 20 occasions and, no doubt, I will be called back to the Dispatch Box to say it all again. As I said last time, I have gone back to the Home Office and we are looking into ways of perhaps answering the noble Lord’s question.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I speak as someone who is proud to have been brought up, and to have gone to school, in Toxteth, and who has a huge amount of respect for Joe Anderson and all that he achieved when he was mayor. Having listened to the various comments made on all sides of this House, I hope my noble friend the Minister will agree that we should ask: is there not a better way in which we can handle situations such as this? Citing the various examples that he has heard, could he perhaps give us the opportunity of coming back when he has reflected with his colleagues in the Home Office on the points that have been raised?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that and I will of course reflect on the points that have been made. However, as I said in my earlier answer, it would be inappropriate for government to interfere with the organisational matters of the police.

Operation Conifer

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I cannot honestly say whether it would be economic or not, for obvious reasons—I do not know yet. But I shall certainly make the strength of feeling known once again to the Home Secretary.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

I recognise now that my noble friend the Minister is aware that the mood and will of this House is very much behind my noble friend Lord Lexden and his call for justice. Whatever his briefings may say, there really has been no independent investigation of the flawed processes of Operation Conifer. As the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, has just said, perhaps there is at last an opportunity. Please would my noble friend the Minister take every advantage of this opportunity and put right the injustice that we all feel so deeply has been done?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Well, once again I hear what my noble friend says, and I shall certainly do my best to represent the views that have been very firmly expressed in the House by taking them back to the Home Secretary and the Home Office.

Security of Elected Representatives

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Thursday 29th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for his comments; he makes some very interesting points. We have been very clear that anti-Muslim hatred has no place at all in our communities, and that it will be stamped out wherever it occurs. It is a growing concern, as I think the right reverend Prelate has highlighted, for all of our communities. To effectively respond to it, we must properly understand it in all its forms and manifestations. We have been seeking the views and perspectives of experts in this field, which I hope would include the right reverend Prelate, to explore how religious hatred is experienced across all British communities. But it seems self-evident that one of the ways to combat this sort of ill-advised and poorly informed hatred is to educate and improve general understanding of the issues under discussion.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

I commend my noble friend the Minister for his wise words today. Yesterday in this Chamber, we spent some time talking about the importance of the freedom of the press. Against a background which we all accept as pretty serious and worrying, it is vital to maintain freedom of speech. People should be able to express their thoughts clearly. I speak as somebody who started on life at Hyde Park’s Speakers’ Corner in the 1960s, where I enjoyed tackling all sorts of issues and had feedback from all those who listened. Does the Minister not think that we ought to do everything possible, particularly in this year, to encourage people to come out and speak without fear of reprisal or of any effect they might or might not have?

If we look ahead to this year, there are two particular questions I would like to ask my noble friend the Minister. First, we are going to get a Dissolution of Parliament. If there is to be general election in May, it will come at the end of next month. What is going to happen so far as protecting candidates is concerned? As soon as there is a Dissolution, MPs are no longer Members of Parliament. What will be done to make sure that the protection will continue during what could potentially be a very testing period? Secondly, does this protection extend to the devolved nations? We must ensure that equal protection is given to all those who have elected office in whatever capacity in the devolved territories and that there are sufficient funds to make sure that they are adequately covered.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend raises some good points. I entirely agree that we should be encouraging debate around these subjects, that we should be tolerant of freedom and that we should encourage freedom. It seems to me self-evident that you can expose widely held fallacies only by, in effect, letting sunlight in as the perfect disinfectant. In terms of debate, the only sunlight you can let in comes via speeches, words and testing opinions and widely held fallacies. On that subject, we have to be careful around the taxonomy that we use when defining some of these hatreds because, again, we would not wish inadvertently to make certain discussions beyond the pale, shall we say.

As regards the devolved nations, defending democracy is a sovereign matter, but policing is devolved. We will work with the security services in those Administrations on the safety of their Governments. Any additional requirements on devolved policing will be funded in the appropriate way. I reassure my noble friend that the Government are looking at how to maintain security requirements during the Dissolution of Parliament when, as he rightly points out, MPs will no longer be MPs. However, Operation Bridger is very clear. A full-time, single point of contact in each police force will be introduced with responsibility for supporting all elected representatives where needed. Obviously, if an MP has stood down for that time, that does not mean that they are not still protected, where needed.

Sir Edward Heath: Operation Conifer

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Wednesday 17th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register, in particular as a past chair of the Sir Edward Heath Charitable Foundation. I join the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, in congratulating my noble friend Lord Lexden, not just on securing this debate but, as the noble Lord said, on his sheer doggedness in pursuing justice and on the eloquent and comprehensive nature of his opening speech. So grotesque, galling and manifestly unjust is this situation, however, that there is plenty of fertile ground remaining to be tilled by the rest of us.

I have considerable sympathy for the Minister, who has inherited this awkward and seemingly intractable problem from a series of predecessors. One of the most important responsibilities of any Minister is the necessity, on occasion, of questioning, or even rejecting, the cautionary advice of officials—the predictable advice to stonewall, to dead-bat, to kick the can down the road. Such advice will, no doubt, be supported by dark hints that any willingness to do anything, to take a decision, actively to address an injustice, would set a dangerous precedent or even worse. I respectfully remind my noble friend that this is precisely the point at which political judgment must come into play; the current leader of the Liberal Democrats is learning that to his cost. I ask the Minister to please spare himself and his successors the indignity of being called back here again and again to defend the indefensible.

The idea that Operation Conifer was anything other than an expensive, chaotic and misguided fishing expedition is, frankly, absurd. From the moment that investigating officer appeared outside Ted Heath’s former home in Salisbury, its true nature was plain to see. My noble friend Lord Lexden quoted the exact words and the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, has just done so again: the policeman referred to every person being a victim, upending the historic presumption of innocence. Even the two Operation Hydrant reviews of Conifer—classic examples of police rather complacently marking their own homework—listed almost 50 shortcomings in the conduct of the investigation.

Like my noble friend Lord Waldegrave of North Hill, I was interviewed by someone who described themselves as one of the investigating officers. I had the same experience as others: namely, an interview that felt completely futile, because I was concerned only with truth—Ted Heath’s true nature—and was unwilling to fan the flames of the fantasies of others. I dare say there are others here who had a similar experience.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My wife was secretary to Ted Heath at this time and I was vice-chairman of the party, responsible for youth. If anything of this kind had happened in any way, it is quite inconceivable that we would not have known about it. She knew every step of his life during this period. She was interviewed in exactly the same incompetent way, which has been addressed. Frankly, if the Government cannot bring themselves to deal with this matter in an open way, they should be ashamed of themselves.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

I am very grateful to my noble friend.

Several obvious witnesses were not contacted at all, including our former colleague and friend in this House, Lord MacGregor, who ran Ted Heath’s private office in the 1960s, and my noble friend Lord Sherbourne, who held the same position a decade later. Diaries held in the Bodleian Library, which would have disproven several of the allegations, were seemingly not properly consulted, if at all. Another of the many extraordinary aspects of Conifer was the chief constable’s decision, seemingly taken unilaterally, that he would relieve the police and crime commissioner of his responsibility for overseeing the investigation. Instead, he appointed a so-called independent panel. Did he act within his powers when he did that? Surely not. This was a case not of marking his own homework but perhaps of hand-picking his own examinations board.

Ministers tell us that the question of an independent inquiry into Conifer is a matter for the local PCC, not for them. Successive PCCs for Swindon and Wiltshire have said that they would support such an inquiry but do not have the money to pay for it. Thus the buck is passed, passed again and passed back once more, seemingly without end.

The Government found the substantial amount required to fund this disgraceful and futile fishing expedition, run by a now discredited chief constable, yet seemingly they cannot find the money to right that injustice or to help prevent this kind of terrible farrago of costly nonsense ever happening again. Where is the accountability in all this?

Several noble Lords have raised before the question of what happened to the logs painstakingly kept by the officers in the police post at Arundells throughout the time Sir Edward Heath lived there. They would certainly not have suited the narrative of the witch hunt, but where are they? It is said that they were destroyed during the course of Operation Conifer.

I end by saying to the Minister that if he wishes to earn and retain the confidence of the House, on occasion he must sense its mood and respond positively to it. An injustice has been done, and it must now be rectified.