Pensioners: Shoplifting

Lord Hogan-Howe Excerpts

Thursday 15th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I shall say two things to the noble Lord, and I hope he can support the Government on this. We have put in an extra £1 billion of funding into policing this year, over and above what was in last year. We are funding 3,000 extra neighbourhood police officers this year. The plan is to fund 13,000 neighbourhood police officers over the course of this Parliament. I was Police Minister in 2010. In 2011, 20,000 police officers were lost, and that has had a big impact on capacity over that time. I say to the noble Lord that people who undertake violence and ram raids are criminal organised gangs and the police need to focus on that, but neighbourhood policing can also help in improving relationships and highlighting the fact that shop theft, be it one cup of coffee, a jar of coffee or a ram raid full of alcohol, meat and expensive products, is taken seriously by the police.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I think the Government’s plan is a good one; there is nothing wrong with the plan. What has happened over the years is that we used to get reports of shoplifting only when they caught the offender, so the police went, and we had a very good detection rate because the offender was presented. What has happened over time is that CCTV and other devices have captured shoplifters who have left the premises. The determinant is whether the police attend. If they attend, they have a good chance of catching them there or using the evidence that is available. Particularly for shop workers, where violence has been used, somebody follows up. I think that what has happened over time is that there has not been the follow-up. That needs to happen. If it happened to be a pensioner who was the offender, they might actually catch them.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I agree strongly with the noble Lord that it is extremely important that all offences are registered. That is a responsibility on shops as well as on the police force and on us as a community as a whole. We need to know the level and scale of the problem. I am pleased to report that there has been an increase in the number of arrests and prosecutions for shop theft over the past six months, and that is a direction of travel that I hope we can continue, because it is important that we address criminal gangs. However, if individuals are stealing because of alcohol or drug misuse or because of not being able to afford to live, those are other issues that we need to register, address and work with the rest of society to resolve.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Hogan-Howe Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 135 and 144, which relate to unpaid carers. It is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, who is always so sound on carers’ issues. I declare an interest as vice-president of Carers UK.

Amendments 135 and 144 would provide employees with a statutory right to paid carer’s leave and require employers with over 250 employees to consider what support unpaid carers are given within their workforce when publishing action plans on gender equality. Both seem to be entirely sensible, and I am pleased they have received cross-party support. As noble Lords will know, I have long campaigned for greater employment rights for those juggling paid work with their unpaid caring responsibilities. This Bill is very welcome and includes many provisions which have a positive impact on working carers.

Millions of people are now doing this juggling act of paid work with their unpaid caring responsibilities, but this juggling act is very difficult to maintain. Despite pockets of good practice, a lack of support and understanding from many employers—and too few rights in the workplace—too often leaves carers with no choice but to give up work or turn to part time or insecure work. It is estimated that 600 people per day quit work to provide unpaid care, with real and lasting consequences for them and their families. That is not only bad for them but bad for their employers and the economy. As recently as March, the Government provided a new estimate of the cost to the economy of carers being unable to work, which the noble Lord, Lord Young, quoted. It was a staggering £37 billion a year—a huge figure.

We have made good progress in recent years. Indeed, the entitlement to a week of unpaid carer’s leave was secured, as we have heard, through the Carer’s Leave Act 2023, and it was a positive step in the right direction. However, it was always intended to be just that—we said this endlessly during the passage of that Act, as some noble Lords will remember—as it was a first step to be built on. I welcome that the Government have committed to review the implementation of the current right to unpaid carer’s leave under the Carer’s Leave Act 2023 and to consider whether there is a need for paid carer’s leave. However, I urge the Government to go further and faster to seize the opportunity in front of them. It is clear to me that we should be doing everything we can to ensure that all carers who are able and wish to work are able to do so. Surely this is part of what the Government are trying to do in other areas—encourage people back into the workforce.

Carers UK’s evidence shows that 80% of carers say that additional paid carer’s leave of between five and 10 days would better help them to juggle work and unpaid care, and 50% of carers would find it easier to return to work after a period of absence if they had access to paid carer’s leave. Almost half of those who have given up work or retired early—many people take early retirement specifically to take up caring responsibilities—said that paid carer’s leave would have helped them to stay in employment for longer had it been available at the time.

The modelling that Carers UK has undertaken based on existing employer practice estimates it would cost the Government between £5.5 million and £32 million annually to introduce paid carer’s leave, depending on the rate of compensation employees receive. I know that is a large figure, but it is in fact a small price to pay compared with the huge contribution made to our economy by carers.

Amendment 144, relating to equality action plans, is necessary due to the gendered nature of caring. At the heavy end of caring, women are still much more involved than men, and this impacts specifically on women’s employment. I understand and welcome that Ministers have been engaging with organisations such as Carers UK, as well as carer-friendly employers, over the last year. I am sure they will have heard much about the positive impacts that organisations such as TSB, Centrica and Phoenix Group can have on their employees by promoting best practice. However, that support should not be the preserve of employees who just happen to work for enlightened employers.

I agree with the Government that this Bill is pro-business and pro-worker. These amendments are too, and that is why I hope they will be supported by the Government.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 134 from the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. She has highlighted that there is a glaring gap in our welfare system. It fails to provide adequate, immediate support for parents whose children fall seriously ill. Although the Neonatal Care (Leave and Pay) Act rightly recognised the need for non-means tested leave and pay when a child is critically ill at or shortly after birth, that protection vanishes as the child grows older. Parents whose children fall seriously ill beyond the neonatal period are left navigating benefits that are not suited to the immediate support they require.

Currently, there are only three options available for parents seeking that financial support. The first is universal credit, which is means tested and not easily accessible. The second, disability living allowance, was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. It can only be applied for three months after a diagnosis and then takes an additional 20 weeks—approaching half a year altogether—to process. DLA is also a requirement for claiming a blue badge—just to give an example of how long this process takes. The third option is 18 weeks of unpaid parental leave taken in four-week blocks within a calendar year.

So, there is a gap from day one to day 90 before a parent can apply for financial help. In these cases, it appears families face an impossible choice—financial insecurity or being at their child’s side during the most traumatic moment of their young lives. This amendment addresses that gap, providing a grant to the parents of a chronically sick child from day one. The grant will be limited to the first one to three months, and approved quickly by the consultant, with a renewal every month.

According to data from the Treasury, there are approximately 4,000 children each year who could be expected to have a hospital stay of two months or more. The cost of caring for a chronically ill child is estimated to be around £750 per month. According to estimates by the charity It’s Never You, if the Government were to provide two months of support during this gap period, it would cost around £6 million—a significant amount, but at the lower end of national spending in revenue terms compared with many of the options talked about today.

This amendment seeks to extend the principles of the Neonatal Care (Leave and Pay) Act to children up to the age of 16 in cases of serious illness. It builds on a clear precedent and introduces a compassionate, practical solution—non-means tested support—at that moment of crisis.

The impact on employers will be minimal, affecting, as I have stated, only a few thousand families a year. But the benefit to those families would be profound. This is precisely the kind of change where legislation can make a life-changing difference at very little cost. I urge the Government to consider this amendment, which is in keeping with the spirit of this legislation.

[Baroness Smith of Llanfaes (PC)]

My Lords, before I deliver my remarks in relation to the amendments that I have signed, I will add my support to the amendment on miscarriage leave from the noble Lord, Lord Brennan of Canton. My Plaid Cymru colleagues in the other place also supported that amendment, so I am glad to see that it has made its way to this House, too.

Amendment 135, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, would establish carer’s leave as a paid entitlement. I will keep my remarks brief, but I speak from lived experience. I became an unpaid carer at the age of 12. I know what it means to juggle education, work and caring responsibilities while having to repeat my story to NHS staff, college tutors, employers and the DWP. The obstacles I faced are not unique. I know that a number of carers who I spoke to in the past, and continue to do so, continue to face these obstacles. Those experiences led me to campaign on those issues, and I am proud to have influenced positive policy changes in Wales that make life a little easier for young carers trying to stay in education.

Amendment 135 would help build a safety net for the millions of people with unpaid caring responsibilities —people like I once was. The Government have made it clear that getting people back into work is a priority, and they also recognise that unpaid carers’ inability to work costs the economy £37 billion a year. Supporting carers to enter and stay in employment must therefore be seen not only as a social priority but an economic one. Introducing paid carer’s leave is not an expensive proposal. Modelling by Carers UK suggests it would cost between £5.5 million and £32 million per year, depending on the rate of compensation. Set against the cost of lost productivity, high turnover and pressure on health and social care systems, this is a modest and worthwhile investment.

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Moved by

[Lord Hogan-Howe]

82: After Clause 18, insert the following new Clause—
“Special constables: right to time off for public duties(1) The Employment Rights Act 1996 is amended is follows. (2) In section 50 (Right to time off for public duties), after subsection (1) insert—“(1A) An employer shall permit an employee who is a special constable, appointed in accordance with section 27 of the Police Act 1996, section 9 of the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012 or section 25 of the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003, to take time off during the employee’s working hours for the purpose of performing their duties.(1B) In section (1A), “duties” means any activity under the direction of a chief officer of police.””Member's explanatory statement
This new clause gives employees who are special constables the right to time off to carry out their police duties.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, my amendment is supported by the noble Lords, Lord Paddick and Lord Evans, for which I am grateful. The amendment seeks to add special constables to the group of people in the criminal justice system who have the right to time off to fulfil their duties.

In 2018, Section 50 of the Employment Act was amended to include lay observers in prisons and members of immigration visiting committees for immigration centres and short-term holding facilities among those, such as magistrates and JPs, who have the right to take time off from their employment. Of course, each of those groups of volunteers is essential to the effective functioning of the criminal justice system, and so are special constables, who have existed since being created by the Special Constables Act 1831, although today’s version was really created by the Police Act 1964.

Special constables are special by name and special by nature, in my view. They are unpaid volunteers who have all the powers of a regular constable and take all the risks that their colleagues take, too, of being stabbed, assaulted and people abusing or spitting at them. They are paid expenses, but of course this covers only their outgoings and they make no profit. They deal with issues such as suicides, terrible road traffic collisions and many other things that regular officers have to deal with, but these are volunteers. After being trained, they are usually expected to be on duty for at least four hours a month. Most do very much more than that; some work every weekend. During breaks in employment, they often work almost full-time hours. Some work at this for over 20 years.

Special constables were designed to be a contingency for war, backfilling the police officers who would be expected to join the Armed Forces. Given many of the uncertainties in the world at the moment, it is not unrealistic to expect that we may call on them in the foreseeable future.

Special constables are a visible representation of community policing, giving of themselves without payment to stop crime and keep order. For me, they have always been a way to have the community in the police station, holding their regular colleagues to account and not captured by the prevalent police culture of the time—almost a pre-body-worn video system before that was even thought about. Some 25% of them go on to become regular officers, so it is not a bad recruiting route and not a bad way for them to test whether they would like to be a police officer or whether police officers think that they are going to be suitable full-time colleagues in future.

At present, the numbers of special constables are dropping quite dramatically. In September 2023, there were 6,330 in England and Wales, but by September the following year there were only 5,818. That is just one-third of the figure it was 10 years ago.

In this context, on the grounds of equity with other volunteers in the criminal justice system, surely we need to enhance the volunteer offer to encourage recruitment, retention and diversity. The Government have said that they want strategically to boost neighbourhood policing, with around 13,000 more officers and PCSOs in the coming years. Surely that priority alone demands that special constables—the most visible of community-based policing—have a priority in recruitment. This amendment would assist in that process.

No doubt the Government may say that this should not be approached in a piecemeal way and that they will make announcements when they say more about neighbourhood policing. Many of those announcements have been made, and this opportunity has been missed, I would say.

Some may say that this is a burden on small businesses, but I do not accept that. The Section 50 right for volunteers has a reasonableness clause in it, so a business of three people may struggle to give any time off, whereas a business employing 10,000 people may have far more flexibility. For example, it is not reasonable for an employee to consistently take time off when the business is particularly busy and needs them.

To be fair, those people come back to work better trained, confident and rounded individuals. As I said earlier, they have had a few new experiences of life—some good and some not so good. The Government may say that, if we do that for this group of volunteers, we may have to do it for others, and we may need to consider that as a whole. I do not accept that either; this reform is long overdue and is supported by the National Police Chiefs’ Council and the specials’ own representative body, the Association of Special Constabulary Officers.

There is a huge gap in recruitment and retention, and that problem is now and the time to deal with it is now. This is a great opportunity to assist what is a special group of people whom we probably have all taken for granted for too long. The Government have an opportunity in this Bill to do something to help, and which will cost nothing.

[Lord Paddick (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I rise to support Amendment 82 in the name of my friend and former colleague, the noble Lord Hogan-Howe, which I have signed. I declare an interest as a paid non-executive adviser to the Metropolitan Police Service. I apologise that I was unable to speak at Second Reading, but I intend to focus in a disciplined way on the amendment, unlike some colleagues.

In London, the Metropolitan Police, the UK’s largest police force, has, in recent years, been unable to recruit police officers to the level it has been funded for, and is now unable to recruit full-time regular police officers because of budget constraints. The Labour Government’s community policing guarantee, to recruit 13,000 more neighbourhood police and Police Community Support Officers, appears to be challenging, given that the Metropolitan Police accounts for about 19% of all UK police officers and about 25% of the UK police budget.

One low-cost way to recruit more community police officers is to take a no-cost-to-the-taxpayer measure to encourage members of the public to become special constables, such as that proposed in the noble Lord’s amendment. As of March 2023, the contribution of special constables was saving an estimated £85 million to £90 million a year in policing delivery, according to government statistics.

The Minister may well say, as Ministers are prone to do—for example, on the issue of humanist weddings—that while they agree in principle with the amendment it needs to be part of a holistic approach to volunteering generally; that the Government will consider this and bring forward such legislation in due course, if necessary; but that they do not want to create an uneven playing field. However, if they intend to meet the 13,000 uplift in community police officers, they need to create an uneven playing field, providing more of an incentive for the public to volunteer to be special constables than to be any other sort of volunteer.

In any event, the playing field is already uneven, as the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, has just said, in that in 2018 the Government—albeit a different Government—amended Section 50 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 to include four groups of volunteers in another part of the criminal justice system, such as independent prison monitors. The reason was to attract applicants in full-time employment, who tend to be younger, and thereby improve the diversity of these volunteers, who tended to be skewed in favour of older age groups.

Not only do the police need fit, younger people to volunteer to be special constables but, particularly in London, they need local volunteers who know and reflect the diversity of the communities in which they will serve. The proportion of special constables from minority backgrounds currently serving is higher than it is among regular full-time police officers, and with the added incentive that this amendment would provide, we have the prospect of recruiting more ideal volunteers, who know and reflect their local communities, as special constables.

Were these not good enough reasons to support this amendment, given the current issues around police culture—highlighted by the noble Baroness, Lady Casey of Blackstock, in her report on the cultural issues facing the Metropolitan Police—recruiting more officers from minority backgrounds, working part-time and hence less influenced by existing negative aspects of police culture, would assist in changing those undesirable aspects of police culture and increase public trust and confidence. Not only would the public see more police officers who look like them; they may recognise them as members of their local community.

The special constabulary has also proved to be a fertile recruiting ground for the full-time regular force, as the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, has just said, providing an opportunity for those from minority backgrounds in particular to try out policing before making a full-time commitment to it. Recruiting more volunteer special constables could also lead to improving the diversity and local representation among the full-time regular police force.

As with the changes made in 2018 to the 1996 Act, there are compelling reasons to extend Section 50 of the current Employment Rights Act to special constables, and I enthusiastically support this amendment.

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In short, I hope that noble Lords will see from that quick canter through what the Government as a whole are doing that, although the Employment Rights Bill might not provide the satisfaction that the noble Lords, Lord Hogan-Howe and Lord Paddick, wish to see, it is certainly not the case that nothing is happening on the special constable front. In the light of this, and with the assurances that I have given the noble Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, feels able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Katz, and his colleagues for providing the meeting earlier for me and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and for the time they took, on a long Bill with many amendments, to spend some time with us. We both appreciated it.

The Minister just said—he realised that I possibly might not agree—that it was invidious to draw distinctions between volunteers, but that is what happened with the employment Act in 2018, which distinguished between prison visitors and immigration. I see no reason why it cannot happen again, in principle. It does not seem to be a real problem.

The Minister said that it is hard to establish how many people might use this right. However, we know that it is no more than about 5,000 people—there are so few of them—in a workforce of about 26 million, so it is not going to cause a massive disruption to employers and employees.

On the voluntary arrangement with the NPCC whereby employers voluntarily give time off, the Minister will know that a survey established that about two-thirds of those who tried to use that scheme were unable to access it because their employers denied them that opportunity. That probably means that this right is particularly needed at the moment.

Finally, although I was not aware of the Hong Kong example—which I guess has a little of the British tradition—there are not many, if any, places in the world where a police officer can be a volunteer and take all the risks and have all the powers. It is a unique thing in the UK. If you talk to officers from Australia or America, they say, “Let’s get this right: they pay them nothing and they take people on and try to arrest them?” They cannot believe it. It is a rare thing we have, and it would be a shame to lose it, but we are in the process of losing it. All that said, of course I am prepared, at this stage, to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 82 withdrawn.

Police: Stop and Search

Lord Hogan-Howe Excerpts

Tuesday 6th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is important that we note and support the Metropolitan Police signing up to the charter which monitors how stop and search is used and sets down some basic tenets that underpin the use of it with checks and balances and by monitoring disparity on the basis of race. But it is equally important that the Metropolitan Police has the power to undertake stop and search, because it has resulted in 21,999 arrests, 12,391 community resolutions, 4,150 penalty notices for disorder and 119 seizures of property in the Metropolitan Police area. The Metropolitan Police is obviously making an impact on elements of criminality, but a large proportion of people are still stopped where no action is taken and no offence has taken place. That is why the measures the Metropolitan Police has put in place are so important.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, there are two things that the Government might consider to help police improve the efficacy of stop and search. This relates also to the next Question from the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, about the use of knives on our streets. First, it is no surprise or secret who carries weapons. The mothers of these kids know it, as do their brothers and the people that they go round with. But will they tell the police and will the police do something about it immediately? Could something such as Crimestoppers—which I tried to get going before I left, but could not—act as a good portal to make sure that the information is passed to the police about who is carrying knives and when and get the police out within minutes to go and find them on the Tube, in taxis or wherever they happen to be travelling? Secondly, there is the use of technology. At the moment, we are relying on officers’ intuition to decide where and who they search, when surely technology by now should be helping them in that vital task.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that intelligence-led policing is critical to making the best use of stop and search. That includes methods where individuals who have information can pass it in confidence to the police. The suggestions the noble Lord has made are important ones. It will also be helpful that we will have over this Parliament an extra 13,000 neighbourhood police officers, with neighbourhood police officers allocated to each community area. It will build confidence and trust to report those matters.

The noble Lord mentioned technology. It is no secret that the Government have been looking at the question of facial recognition and other technologies along those lines, which can spot and analyse the use and carrying of knives. That is something we are working on, although I cannot give him definitive answers today.

Female Genital Mutilation

Lord Hogan-Howe Excerpts

Tuesday 25th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. The figures from NHS England, which I have before me, show that between April 2024 to June 2024, 985 new cases of women and girls with FGM were recorded by the NHS, with around 2,175 cases in total during these three months. He is right that there is, in my view, an underreporting of FGM and a need to up the level of prosecution when evidence is submitted. The purpose of the study that was commissioned and undertaken was to look at how we both better record and translate recording into prosecution. He is right that the prosecution level is too low. That is why the College of Policing is issuing guidance to police forces on how they can record information to put forward to the Crown Prosecution Service to ensure that those prosecutions take place.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, are there not serious issues in these investigations that the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, quite rightly pointed out? Obviously, many of the mutilations are arranged by parents, which means that the children may have to give evidence against their parents. The people who carry out the cutting are abroad, which means that they are beyond our ability to investigate, although various operations have been carried out at Heathrow to try to get these girls when they are travelling; some have been successful.

I worry that the health service is not recording all the data. I understand why: of course, we want patients to get care if they have had a terrible medical episode after one of these cutting episodes, or if they have subsequent medical problems. We need the data to see how big the problem is. I suspect, as the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, indicated, that it is far bigger than we know. The medical profession, I suspect, has the data for adults as well, because women need treatment later and it will be obvious what happened in earlier life. The Minister mentioned the study, but perhaps he could say a little more about how he intends to get that data.

Theft of Mobile Telephones

Lord Hogan-Howe Excerpts

Tuesday 4th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Baroness makes a very interesting suggestion. As I have already said, we are working with mobile phone companies to look at what is in the interests of preventing crime, while at the same time ensuring that users and consumers can use their phones in an appropriate way. I will look at that suggestion. We have a further meeting with the phone companies in around three months to report back on what action they have taken to date in relation to those issues, and we will certainly examine that for her.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, is right, that design is the way to prevent the thing, once stolen, being valuable, so that there is therefore no point in stealing it. This morning, I was out with the excellent cycling enforcement team in the City of London, who were enforcing cycling legislation. More importantly, they told me about having recently arrested a mobile phone thief who had 24 phones with him. Given that the thieves are getting rid of them very quickly, either abroad or because they do not want to be caught with them, I wonder whether the statistics that show how many phones are getting stolen are accurate.

In the City, there are probably two phones stolen per day, according to the crime stats. This is one indication—but there are many—that the crime stats are not representative, because people are not reporting it, perhaps because they are not sure they are going to get a reaction from the cops, but sometimes because they just do not need to. However, how much of this crime is out there, and that we are not able to stop it, is a worry.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

One of the first things that anybody who is a victim of crime should do is report that crime, because we cannot act unless we know the level of crime and the impact of it in the first place. That is important. The noble Lord is also right that designing out the potential for this activity in the building of resilient phones that cannot be used post crime is the best way forward. There have been innovations by a number of phone companies on that, but certainly there is more that can be done.

We want to help to support CCTV, and to take measures such as the incident warrant and on neighbourhood policing. In the long term, we will work with companies to ensure that we design out crime, and we will look at the market for broken-up, exported or resold phones in the United Kingdom. That intelligence-led policing will help to have a great impact on the current 146,000 thefts from a person last year, up 22%, of which mobile phone thefts were approximately half that figure.

Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill

Lord Hogan-Howe Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 4th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, these Benches welcome the government amendments to Clause 32, in particular Amendment 28 on consultation, which we were very keen to see written into the Bill when we debated it at previous stages.

Amendment 13 starts from the point of view that the measures in the Bill are inappropriately burdensome, as we discussed in the previous group. In fact, proposed new subsection (2) in Amendment 13 would be burdensome on applicants and the Secretary of State. It uses the words “demonstrated” and “materially”; these things all require some judgment and work. In particular, the Bill does not seek to

“materially reduce the threat of terrorism”,

as we have discussed. The public protection procedures in Clause 5 are more than a single measure.

As I understand the way that the Bill will work, with premises being different there is bound to be some dialogue between the owner or operator and the SIA in assessing whether they are compliant. That is the time to make these assessments. I do not think it will be a box-ticking exercise, at any rate to the extent that has been suggested. The process will get people to think—a word used by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox —when they are planning the procedures. I hope she will invite noble Lords to come and see the Buckley procession, but the problem there sounds to me more like a problem with local authority funding than anything which arises from this Bill. The words “flexibility” and “agility” really worry me; this will create a lot of work for people. So our main objection to Amendment 13 is that it is neither appropriate nor, frankly, workable and we cannot support it if the noble Lord decides to divide.

Amendment 25 is on the national threat level. I do not want to say that it goes up and down like a yo-yo, because clearly it does not, but it does go up and down and so, again, I think it would be unworkable given the criterion. The right reverend Prelate used the word “confusion”, which was the first word I wrote down against this amendment. We know that owners and operators want clarity and certainty, so, again, we cannot support this amendment. I really cannot see how it could work because, when the national threat level changes, it happens quite immediately, so to change arrangements as the amendment proposes would take time. I just cannot see how it could operate.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

I support what the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester have said about Amendment 25. This needs consistency. The danger, as well as the fact that these things can change quite quickly, is that the SIA would struggle to respond to a potential wave of applications, when the certainty that people require is probably on whether they are safe in a venue and whether there is an invacuation plan or an evacuation plan. These things can be predictable and consistent, so it would not be helpful to tie them to the thresholds. These thresholds move predictably in the sense that we can see the threat rising and events happening, but sometimes they are based on intelligence that is not always open to the public, and therefore a rapid change could lead to quite a lot of uncertainty in the operation of premises. That is not wise, either, so I cannot support Amendment 25.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 13 and 25, both tabled by my noble friend Lord De Mauley, which introduce much-needed flexibility and proportionality into the Bill. They recognise that a one-size-fits-all approach is neither practical nor desirable when it comes to public protection measures.

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Moved by

[Lord Hogan-Howe]

32A: After Clause 34, insert the following new Clause—
“Counter-terrorism measures in planning law(1) The Secretary of State must consult with local authorities on integrating counter-terrorism measures into the planning and design of new buildings which are likely to be designated “qualifying premises” for the purposes of this Act.(2) Following that consultation, the Secretary of State must introduce measures to ensure the incorporation of anti-terrorism design principles in new building projects, particularly those in high-risk areas, where the buildings in question are likely to be designated “qualifying premises” for the purposes of this Act.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment was tabled as Amendment 43 at Committee stage.

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[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I beg to move the manuscript amendment standing in my name on the Order Paper. I will be quite brief and I do not intend to push it to a vote. My reason for bringing the amendment forward—it is a repeat of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, in Committee—is because it is fundamental to the aim of the Bill, which will become an Act. It is about the design of new premises.

One of the most strategic things that can happen is to ensure that premises are designed to mitigate the effects of a terrorist attack or, ideally, to prevent it altogether. To be fair, the Minister reassured us in Committee that some action would be taken. It is not that I was not reassured by the Minister, but I was not reassured by the Government’s response in two respects: first, when that change would happen and, secondly, the method by which the advice to planners would be effective. I thought the best way to change that might be in this Bill, not some future one.

It is so important that we design places to enable evacuation and invacuation, and to reduce the risk of a rampant gunman running around a building—all of which is entirely possible by design, particularly in new venues. I would not propose this for every venue but certainly for our major venues—perhaps the 1% of our venues that account for a very high percentage of the people who attend public events and, frankly, will be the priority targets for terrorists, as that is where they will achieve, in their warped view, the most impact by creating public outrage.

For those reasons, I would like to hear how the Government intend to implement this type of design change in a way that, I hope, can be more reassuring than I heard in Committee. This is nothing to do with the Minister but entirely to do with the Government’s response.

[Lord Udny-Lister (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak, briefly, in support of the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe. I do not want to repeat everything I said previously, but it is important. I know the Minister will say that this is not the appropriate Bill, but the trouble is that there is never an appropriate one, and therefore we keep on missing the opportunities of starting to design out terrorism and crime from the very start. So I would hope that, after this, the Minister will at least take this on board with his colleagues and try to push hard for people to start thinking seriously about doing this for new developments, particularly larger ones.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Hogan-Howe and Lord Udny-Lister, for raising this matter both in Committee and on Report. The amendment today is a late addition but it is welcome none the less, because it allows me to put on the record a couple of very key points.

I will not revisit the debate we had in Committee, but I did say then that the national policy framework for England and its equivalent in the devolved Governments already contains provision on the need to promote public safety and take account of wider security arrangements during the planning process. That requires local planning authorities to take information from the police and other agencies and to consider steps that could be taken to reduce vulnerability, increase resilience and ensure public safety and security.

There is also associated planning practice guidance providing greater detail. But I get the sense, and I understand where both noble Lords are coming from, that it is far better to design out that challenge in future new build than it is to put in place other measures downstream. As was mentioned in Committee, there is the National Protective Security Authority, and counterterrorism police will continue to serve as valuable advisers on these issues. But since Committee, and this is where I hope I can help both noble Lords, we have reflected on this as an important issue. My officials have discussed the matter further with their counterparts in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, and we want to consider how we can reinforce planning authorities with the existing arrangements and requirements to consider security and its importance as part of planning regimes.

It might be helpful for me to say very quickly that the Government are updating their National Design Guide and National Model Design Code, which provide guidance on the very issues that the noble Lords, Lord Udny-Lister and Lord Hogan-Howe, mentioned on safety and security in public spaces. The plan is that they will be published later in the spring.

The Government intend to consult on changes to the national planning policy guidance, to make it clearer and to introduce a more rules-based approach, in spring 2025. The consultations will specifically include policies for addressing security—the very points that both noble Lords have brought to the attention of the House in this amendment, and on which we had a full debate in Committee.

To conclude, I will say what the noble Lord said I would say, which is that this is not the appropriate vehicle for this legislation. That is what Ministers say occasionally at Dispatch Boxes and it is the right thing to do in this instance. But I hope the reassurance that I have given to both noble Lords, that this is on the Government’s agenda and that there will be a consultation that noble Lords can feed into, addresses the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and by the two noble Lords who spoke on this matter in Committee and today. So I hope that the noble Lord will not press his amendment.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

I thank noble Lords for such a generous response to such a late amendment. I appreciate it, and I am reassured by what the Minister has said. I heard the timeline, and I can see why these things need to be considered carefully. With that reassurance, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 32A withdrawn.

Emergency Service Network Programme

Lord Hogan-Howe Excerpts

Monday 24th February 2025 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Hogan-Howe]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what progress has been made in delivering the Emergency Service Network programme.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

My Lords, in December 2024, the Home Office awarded the user service contract for the emergency service network to IBM and its partners. The programme’s attention is now on producing a plan with our partners, focusing on mobilisation and delivery of key capabilities to deliver the emergency service network. Programme delivery dates with milestones will be available in the spring.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer, and I declare my interests as in the register. Members may not know this, but this is essentially about moving the police emergency services, the fire brigade and the ambulance service from a radio network to a mobile phone network. That should have been delivered in 2017, but here we are in 2025 and we do not yet have an implementation date. The initial cost of £2 billion is now in excess of £12 billion. I wonder whether the time has come for a radical new approach. Instead of pursuing the present idea, which was a good one, of having the data and radio system on a mobile phone network, we could pursue those two avenues separately, so that we make progress and do not waste more money on a programme that has struggled to make any progress.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, who will be aware that I can be responsible only for activity post 4 July 2024. There was significant time and money overspend under the previous Government. However, he is right that the service will provide for 300,000 users across Britain, 107 emergency services, 44 police forces, 50 fire and rescue services and 13 ambulance trusts, as well as 300 other organisations that use Airwave for this important purpose. I hear what he says, but we have set a course of action and a direction of travel. He will no doubt monitor that, and I want to ensure that the switchover from Airwave to the new emergency service network happens as quickly as possible. As he knows, it will take some time to bed in following the ending of the previous contract and the beginning of this contract. I hope that the House will bear with me on that delivery in due course.

Prevent: Learning Review

Lord Hogan-Howe Excerpts

Thursday 13th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful for the noble Lord’s comments. The loss of Sir David was felt keenly across the House, but particularly by those who shared his political party or were close to his region. He will be forever remembered for the Adjournment debate, now named the Sir David Amess Adjournment Debate, in the House of Commons. For those who do not know, Sir David was always first up in every Adjournment debate to raise about 46 issues to do with Southend. Of those, 42 or 43 ended up in some positive outcome for his constituents. I should mention that, before Southend, he was the Member of Parliament for Basildon.

The noble Lord raises extremely important points. There is a criminal threshold for individuals who promote Islamist or neo-Nazi terrorism, or terrorism related to any other form of hate, such as misogyny. It is extremely important, if evidence is brought forward and the threshold is crossed, that the police take action via the CPS. The Prevent strategy is particularly about younger people being radicalised by those who have criminal intent and have provided criminal material, or individuals who have crossed that threshold and are having their own grievances or immaturities exploited by individuals for the purpose of terrorist activity. The Prevent strategy is about helping people who are going down that route. I think the noble Lord is referring to the criminal threshold, which is for the police and the CPS to determine. They have my full support to prosecute anybody who encourages terrorist activity.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I fully support the Prevent strategy. It is vital, as one of the four legs of the Contest strategy. Along with Pursue, to arrest the people who did it, Prevent obviously tries to prevent the thing happening, and Prepare ensures we prepare for the consequences.

One thing that needs to be addressed, which the noble Lord, Lord Davies, raised, is that there is a handful of TPIMs in place. For those who are unaware of what that means, it refers to people who are not charged but have appeared in court, and conditions are put on how they live in free society. One of the most effective measures is their relocation, but it is also expensive, as is the surveillance that surrounds them. Over time, the security services have suppressed the number of people under TPIMs because, having served them, they have to follow these people, as do the police.

This situation seriously needs looking at, because we now complain that the police and others did not look at these people to prevent them committing the awful crimes we have heard about today. That suppression, which happens partly through resourcing but partly through accountability, does us no good. I cannot comment on whether 200 or 50 people need to be on these orders, but it needs to be more than a handful, because we expect others to bear that risk. When it goes wrong, we say, “Why didn’t you do something?” It is because we have suppressed the number under TPIMs. The place to decide whether they should be on them is called a court. I am afraid that, in my view, it has not happened in sufficient cases.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord brings a lot of experience to this topic. He is right that a very small number of individuals are currently on TPIM orders. For the House’s information, I publish on a regular basis the number of those on TPIM orders. A Written Ministerial Statement on this was published in, maybe, the last two weeks. From memory, the latest figure is certainly low. I cannot remember the exact figure, but it is under 10.

There is an argument to be had but, in a sense, it is not for Ministers. The TPIM legislation is there. If the police and the courts have severe concerns about individuals who may have previous prosecutions, but in this case do not have a prosecution in the specific area, TPIMs are a tool that can be used. It comes with a cost and potential further risks, but it is a valuable tool. Throughout my time in this field, TPIMs have been a way in which individuals who have not committed a crime can be monitored because of the danger they pose, and action can be taken in the event of them moving towards potential terrorist activity.

The noble Lord makes a valuable point, but I cannot, at the moment, give him a plan on resources. However, his point is noted and I will take it back to officials.

Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill

Lord Hogan-Howe Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 12th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Udny-Lister (Con)]

My Lords, I will be very brief in moving this amendment. As I said at Second Reading, there is a clear opportunity within this legislation to design out terrorism by ensuring that anti-terrorism design principles are incorporated into new building projects that fall within the definition and scope of the qualifying premises. It is important that we take every opportunity to do this as we proceed with various bits of legislation that do have an effect on security.

Legislation, where possible, should always be forward-looking and include provisions that seek to prevent, rather than just address. I am therefore hopeful that noble Lords will see the benefits of mandating the need for the Secretary of State to work with local authorities on integrating the counterterrorism measures into planning and design policies, so that we can promote safer premises from the outset of their design. It is a sad reality that the threat of terrorism will not go away in the short term. We therefore have a duty to ensure that the venues of tomorrow are designed in ways that protect the public and prevent terrorism. I am confident that this amendment will achieve that, while further alleviating the financial burden of altering premises at a later date to ensure compliance with the Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to support the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, and although it is towards the end of the Bill and it is a small addition, I think that, without this change, the Bill becomes less effective, because the thing we know works best in preventing crime—or terrorism, in this case—is design. The problem we have at the moment with car theft is that the thieves know how to steal them and are pretty effective at it. Car stealing has gone through the roof over the last few years. For 20 years, it went down. So we can design things better to make the terrorists less likely to be effective, or so that, if they do get through, they do less damage.

Prevention is critical to the Bill. At Second Reading, the Minister said that they could not consider it in this Bill, and that it had to be considered elsewhere. As much as I love and respect him, I am not sure that I agree. The danger is that the Home Office forgets, and it gets buried somewhere else. This is the best place to do it. There is an equivalent: the Section 104 agreements on new buildings, which are about crime—keeping new buildings safe by being designed to prevent crime. Car parks are designed in order to make it less likely that cars are stolen.

Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill

Lord Hogan-Howe Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 10th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, there is enormous advantage in the various regulatory frameworks being consistent. That is a very basic principle. If you are looking for a holistic approach to protective security—which is what this Bill is about—there is the element of personal responsibility involved in making sure that sensible precautions are taken at a local level, but there will also be responsibilities on licensing authorities. It is my view that the various licensing authorities should proactively put in proportionate requirements for the various organisations concerned. In many cases they do that already, but I am not sure that it is a consistent process because each licensing authority is technically separate. While I am not sure that it is in the scope of this Bill to try to regularise the position of different licensing authorities, a holistic approach to protective security would ensure that licensing authorities behave in a consistent fashion.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, has hit on a good point, particularly when you consider that at least four bodies would have a view about evacuation—the Health and Safety Executive, licensing authorities, the SIA and the fire regulators. Each has its own inspection regime, which means that there could be four inspections in one year about the same event. They would all want to make sure that this does not cause more cost but does cause more effectiveness. Whether it is in the Bill or something to reassure the people operating these premises, I think it worth considering at this stage. Nobody is saying that it should not happen, but it is about how it works together. This would be one more body in a similar area if we considered evacuation only, but I suspect that there are other overlapping areas.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 32 in my name would require the Security Industry Authority to notify all local authorities when guidance under the Act has been published. This amendment is a sensible and practical addition that enhances the effectiveness of the guidance regime established by the Bill. Local authorities, as the key regulators of many of the premises affected by this legislation, must be fully informed and equipped to act on the guidance issued by the SIA. Without clear and timely notification, there is a real risk that local authorities may be unaware of updates or new requirements, leading to inconsistencies in enforcement and, ultimately, undermining the policy aims of the Bill.

The Security Industry Authority will no doubt invest considerable resources in developing detailed guidance, taking into account the needs of various sectors and types of premises. However, guidance can be effective only if those responsible for its implementation are fully aware of it. Local authorities play a pivotal role in licensing, regulation and compliance, particularly in environments where security is a key concern. Whether dealing with entertainment venues, public spaces or other licensed premises, their ability to respond quickly and efficiently to new guidance is essential for maintaining public safety.

Ensuring that local authorities are promptly notified will support the smooth implementation of the Act and strengthen co-operation between central guidance bodies and local enforcement agencies. It will reduce the risk of delays in adopting best practices and foster a stronger sense of collaboration between stakeholders at the national and local levels. Ultimately, this measure will help create a more coherent and streamlined regulatory environment, benefiting businesses and the public alike.

Furthermore, this amendment underscores the importance of clarity and communication in regulatory frameworks. Given the increasing complexity of the legislative landscape for public safety and licensing, clear channels of communication between central bodies and local authorities are more critical than ever. We must not assume that guidance, once published, will automatically reach all relevant parties without a formal notification requirement. By adopting this amendment, we would take a simple yet effective step to close that potential gap.

I respectfully suggest that the adoption of Amendment 32 would represent a constructive and pragmatic step toward strengthening communication between national and local regulatory bodies. It is a practical measure that will enhance the effectiveness of this legislation and support its successful implement- ation. I urge the Government to give it serious and favourable consideration.