Child Safety: Video Games

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Monday 8th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, would the Minister—

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

Forgive me, but it is this side and then we will come to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe.

[Lord Eden of Winton]

I am grateful, my Lords. Very quickly, while welcoming very much the answers that my noble friend has given, I wonder whether she is aware that, whether or not these games are good in intent for children, they are very attractive to them. Placing the onus on the parents is therefore rather a heavy duty, and we should not leave them alone. Will she give consideration to tackling this problem at source, with the producers and purveyors of these products being taxed or their products made less attractive to them financially in some way?

Business of the House

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Thursday 4th July 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That the debates on the motions in the names of Baroness Shephard of Northwold and Lord Marlesford set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.

Motion agreed.

Draft Deregulation Bill

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Thursday 4th July 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That it is expedient that a joint committee of Lords and Commons be appointed to consider and report on the draft Deregulation Bill presented to both Houses on 1 July 2013 (Cm 8642).

Motion agreed, and a message was sent to the Commons.

European Council and Afghanistan

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“I would like to make a Statement on Afghanistan and to report back on last week’s European Council. I visited Afghanistan on Armed Forces Day to pay tribute to the extraordinary men and women who risk their lives every day to serve our country. We should remember in particular the 444 who have lost their lives in Afghanistan. I hope that the whole House will welcome the decision to use money from banking fines to build a permanent memorial at the National Memorial Arboretum in Staffordshire so that our generation and every future generation can remember and honour the sacrifice they have made for us.

We are in Afghanistan for one reason: to protect our national security by stopping that country being used as a base from which to launch terrorist attacks against our people and against our allies around the world. That requires a security response, resisting Taliban insurgent attacks, driving out al-Qaeda and training Afghan forces to take on this task for themselves. It requires a political response, supporting the Afghans to build a more peaceful, democratic and prosperous future, including a peace process. And it requires a diplomatic response, working in particular with Pakistan, which has a vital role in fighting terrorism in the region.

Let me take the three in turn. On security, four years ago three-quarters of the most serious terrorist plots against the UK had links to Afghanistan and Pakistan. Today it is less than half. British and international forces have stopped Afghanistan acting as a safe haven for al-Qaeda, and Afghan forces are now taking the lead on security right across the country. At the weekend I went to Camp Bastion, Lashkar Gah and the forward operating base at Durai. The British forces I met are absolutely clear about the capability, confidence and leadership of the Afghan forces, which are already delivering 90% of their own training. All of the 1,000 police patrols in central Helmand each week are now conducted alone, without ISAF support.

It is this growing capability that enables us to draw down our troops. Our numbers in Afghanistan have already reduced from 9,500 to 7,900. By the end of this year it will be around 5,200. Until recently we were in 137 different bases. We are now in 13 and by the end of the year it will be four or five bases. By the end of next year, when Afghan forces take on full security responsibility, there will be no British troops in any kind of combat role at all. Beyond 2014, small numbers of British troops will remain to help the Afghans deliver their national army officer academy. This was a request of the Afghan president himself. We will also contribute £70 million a year as part of international financial support for Afghan security beyond 2014.

A strong security response must also be accompanied by a strong political response. In Helmand we have been working for many years to support the development of better governance, local justice, public services and the chance for Afghans to build sustainable livelihoods that do not involve drugs. There are now 130,000 children in school, including 30,000 girls—something that would have been impossible under the Taliban—and 80% of the population can now get healthcare within 10 kilometres of their home.

At the national level, the political process is moving forward too. At the weekend, President Karzai assured me of his commitment to the first peaceful democratic succession of power in living memory following next year’s elections at the end of his second and final term. Over 50,000 new voters have already registered, including over 10,000 women, and Britain is supporting this with £4.5 million of aid specifically targeted to increase women’s participation.

This progress in Afghanistan is a challenge to the Taliban. The combination of the successful build-up of the Afghan national security forces and progress on the ground demonstrates that the way to a role in Afghanistan’s future is not through terror and violence but only by engaging in a political process. So I welcome plans to begin direct talks with the Taliban. The peace process must be Afghan-led but we should do all we can to support it. It does not signal any weakening of our security response, but if we can persuade people that there is a legitimate political path for them to follow then we should do so.

We also know that the problems in Afghanistan will not be solved in Afghanistan alone. The support of neighbouring countries like Pakistan will be vital. On my visit to Pakistan I was greatly encouraged by the commitment of the new Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. His election was the first democratic transition in that country from one elected government to another. It represents, I believe, a precious sign of progress in Pakistan. We discussed our trade, economic and cultural ties. We also agreed to work together in countering extremism and radicalisation, investing in education, tackling poverty and dealing with all the issues that can fuel terrorism. Building on the trilateral process that I have been leading between the UK, Afghanistan and Pakistan, I welcomed the Prime Minister’s commitment to working with Afghanistan in defeating terrorism across the region.

Let me turn to last week’s European Council. This was rightly focused on sorting out Europe's economy by doing what we are doing in Britain: getting a grip of spending and supporting private enterprise to create jobs and growth. On spending, the Council finalised with the European Parliament the seven-year budget deal that we successfully negotiated in February. It agreed new flexibilities between different years and between different budget headings but, crucially, the deal delivers for the first time a real-terms cut on the credit card limit for EU spending for the next seven years. There was no change to the agreed deal, which set spending at €908.4 billion across the next seven years. That compares with €943 billion in the past seven years.

However, in this process, there was a further attempt to unpick the British rebate. In February, after repeated attempts to water down the rebate, we reached a clear deal that it would remain unchanged. That was reflected in the Council conclusions that I reported back to this House. So the discussion that took place was not necessary and it is frustrating and frankly unacceptable that we had to go through it all over again. The proposal was to remove our rebate on agricultural spending in new member states, and it would have cost the British taxpayer more than £1.5 billion. It has now been categorically rejected. We will continue to get the rebate in the years ahead on the same basis that we do now. It is fair. It is right and, unlike, the previous Government, this Government will not agree to weaken it or give any part of it away.

At the Council, there was a particular focus on tackling youth unemployment by supporting the private sector to create jobs and tackling the burdens that hold back our businesses from competing in the global race. We agreed that the European Investment Bank should increase its lending by 40%, with more finance for small and medium-sized businesses. We agreed to do more to help young people who are not working to acquire the skills that the private sector needs through proper educational training, very much along the lines of Britain’s £1 billion youth contract, and we agreed to scrap unnecessary EU regulation that ties up our businesses in red tape when they should be growing and creating new jobs. To give additional detail and urgency to the Commission’s work, we will establish in the UK a new business task force with six of our best business leaders to take a fresh and ambitious look at the impact of EU regulation on our companies.

It is vital that we expand our trade and increase overseas investment into the UK. That was one of the reasons why I was the first serving British Prime Minister to visit Kazakhstan on Sunday and Monday. Since the year 2000, that country has grown at an annual rate of between 8% and 9%, per capita income has doubled and it has the potential to be the sixth largest oil and gas producer in the world. My business delegation signed deals worth more than £700 million—all of which will help to create and sustain jobs right here in the UK.

Finally, the Council welcomed Croatia, which became the newest member of the EU at the weekend. We also agreed to start negotiations on accession with Serbia, and on a stability and association agreement with Kosovo. When we remember what happened in the Balkans within our political lifetimes, it is a remarkable achievement that these countries are now joining or preparing to join the EU with a sense of peace and stability. Britain is proud to support them.

Each of those steps at the Council was about doing what is right for Britain and right for Europe. It is in our national interest to get spending under control, to make Europe more competitive and to expand EU membership to the Balkan States. Openness, competitiveness and flexibility are vital elements of the fresh settlement that I believe is needed for the European Union. We want more of a say for national parliaments and powers to flow back to member states not just away from them. This is a new settlement that I intend to put to the country in a referendum within the first half of the next Parliament, a referendum that will give the British people the in/out choice they want and which my party will offer at the next general election. It is a referendum that my party will be voting for in this Chamber on Friday, and I commend this Statement to the House”.

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I obviously echo the noble Baroness’s tribute to our Armed Forces, which she quite rightly made at the start of her response. On her questions about Afghanistan and the continuing commitment of the UK beyond 2014, no decisions have been taken beyond helping to deliver the officer training academy, which was referred to in the Statement, and the accompanying force protection. The existing funding commitments have already been set out. That is the Government’s position on what will happen beyond 2014.

I agreed with what the noble Baroness said about the importance of support for a proper political process. In terms of that process and keeping the political talks on track, it was clearly the case that the initial opening of the Doha office was done in a way that caused a setback to those talks. Nevertheless, it is important that we should try to continue with that process and make progress as fast as we possibly can. We are very keen to see early meetings between the Taliban and the US, and between the Taliban and the Afghans, on terms that all sides can accept. I hope that will move forward. We know from our own experience that peace processes are often long, complex and very bumpy, and this will obviously be no exception, but we have been working with our international partners in support of an Afghan-led peace process for some time and we will continue to do that.

On the noble Baroness’s specific question about whether there has been any progress since the Chequers regional peace summit communiqué, and in particular the relationship between Afghanistan and Pakistan, at Chequers there was an agreement between Afghanistan and Pakistan that they would work more closely across a broad range of areas. Since February, co-operation on border relations and on military issues has enabled some quicker resolution to some cross-border tensions. There has also been some positive co-operation to resolve issues to do with refugees, so there have been some tangible steps.

Back at Chequers, both the Presidents committed themselves to doing what they could to work towards peace in Afghanistan over the next six months. The news that the Taliban has released a statement distancing itself from international terrorism is a step—no doubt a small one, but it is a step—in that long, difficult road to peace. The Afghanistan-Pakistan relationship is difficult, which is why we are working with both sides to try to improve it, and I agree with the noble Baroness about the importance of our Government engaging with the new Government in Pakistan to try to help bring that about.

The noble Baroness rightly welcomed the accession of Croatia and referred to Serbia and Kosovo. So far as the rebate is concerned, I am delighted to hear her support for my right honourable friend the Prime Minister’s successful negotiation of the overall multi- financial framework and the rebate. I would gently remind her and the Benches opposite that they told him that he did not have a cat’s chance of pulling it off. I think that they rather hoped that he would not pull it off, but I am delighted that they now support that and the measures that he has taken to try to introduce a bit more financial control into the EU budget, as we are doing over here. On the specific point about unpicking the rebate, it is the case that that was a straightforward ambush of the Prime Minister. He had no interest whatever in the rebate being unpicked but along came some people in the early hours of the morning and tried to do so. Fortunately, he managed to resist that and the situation is now clear.

So far as youth unemployment is concerned, I obviously agree with the noble Baroness about the scale of the challenge across the EU, and indeed in our own country. Clearly, we think it is far too high, both in the EU and in the UK. Youth unemployment is down just over 40,000 this quarter and 60,000 last year, but we are not complacent about that. One hundred thousand young people have started a work placement under the youth contract and we know that youth unemployment fell faster last year in the UK than it did in the USA, Germany, Canada, France and Italy. There is a lot more to do, but there has been some progress and I agree with the noble Baroness’s point about the importance of looking at EU regulations. I would not argue that it will make all the difference, but as part of a range of measures—whether apprenticeships or encouraging traineeships to try to reduce all possible burdens on business so that the private sector can create the jobs that young people need—I think that this is a step worth taking.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, from these Benches we join in the tributes to the service men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan.

I thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement. The Prime Minister has mentioned the importance of the Afghanistan-Pakistan relationship in combating terrorism. The noble Lord knows that 53 people were killed while Mr Cameron was in Pakistan and 2,500 have been killed this year alone in Pakistan. Would it not be truly ironic if, through the Taliban peace talks, Afghanistan is stabilised, yet Pakistan’s home-grown Taliban continued to wreak havoc? Can he tell the House what discussions the Prime Minister might have had with regard to the security and stability of Pakistan when he met Mr Sharif?

On 24 October 2011, in a similar European Council Statement in the other place, the Prime Minister said that he could not see a need for an in/out referendum. In fact, he said that legislating now for a referendum, including on whether Britain should leave the EU, could cause great uncertainty and could actually damage our prospects for growth. Today he talks of openness, competitiveness and flexibility, which are vital elements of the fresh settlement that he thinks is needed for the European Union. Can the noble Lord tell us what his thinking is in calling for an in/out referendum this week? Can he tell the House what has changed to date in the eurozone crisis? What other substantial markers of belief have encouraged the Prime Minister to make such a volte face from his previous position?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, on the security situation in Pakistan, my noble friend is right to point out the problems that that country faces, and the relationship between the problems there and in Afghanistan. In the trilateral relationship between the UK, Afghanistan and Pakistan, it is right that we do what we can to minimise problems in both those countries. I take her points and she is right to remind us of those figures.

Only the Conservative Party is offering an in/out referendum, and my right honourable friend the Prime Minister feels that it is right to draw attention to that as the clear choice that people will have at the next election.

[Lord Tomlinson]

My Lords, can I ask the Minister a very direct question about the budget? We have been hearing about budgetary crises every time we get a report back from a summit. Is it not about time now that the British Government took a positive act in Brussels to bring the budget under control at the beginning of the budget process? That starts when the Council of Ministers has the first reading of the budget and starts applying a process of zero-based budgeting to a selection of budget lines so that we know exactly where we want cuts, and then have the resources for those areas such as Europol where we want to see increases. The idea of playing it as a game on a snakes and ladders board, where you have only ladders and no snakes, is what is leading to the present budgetary imbalances. I ask the Minister not to give a commitment other than that he will talk with his right honourable friend the Prime Minister and with Treasury Ministers about whether it is now time to start a process of zero-based budgeting so that we can establish budgetary priorities afresh.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

On the broad question of budgeting, I am sure the noble Lord will accept that to have secured a real-terms reduction in the budget for the first time ever represents a significant achievement by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. As I am sure the noble Lord knows, the process of agreeing budgets—with the flexibility between years, the different lines and the political compromises that are inevitably essential—is a nightmarishly complicated process. The noble Lord did not ask me to give an undertaking, and I do not think that I or anyone else would be able to reform this labyrinthine process, but I certainly undertake to make sure that his comments, which I know are meant to be helpful in making sure that there is rigour in budgeting, are taken back so that people can consider them properly.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, during the past year, there have been increased incursions by Spanish naval vessels in British waters at Gibraltar. More recently, Spanish vessels fired on a British sailor in those waters. It is reported by the media that the Prime Minister raised this matter with the Spanish Prime Minister—of course, Spain is an EU partner. Was the matter raised with the Spanish Prime Minister, and if so, what was his response?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The Prime Minister raised this matter with the Spanish Prime Minister and protested about the incident to which the noble Lord refers. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister made it clear that he felt that that behaviour was completely unacceptable and he asked Spain to carry out an investigation into the incident.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, how confident are Her Majesty’s Government that women in Afghanistan will enjoy full political rights and that they will be able to take a full part in civil society in that country? The Statement says that 130,000 children are now in school, including 30,000 girls. That implies that 70% of school-aged girls are not in school. Will the Minister tell us in percentage terms the figures for girls in school and whether girls are now being allowed to go to university? This was the case a few years ago, but the situation seems to have deteriorated.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The noble Baroness will not be surprised to know that I do not have those percentages in my head, but I will see what I can find out about them and I will write to her about whatever I uncover. There has been progress in the way that she said in drawing attention to those figures. She is right to draw attention to the guarantees and commitments about the future and the right of women to vote and participate in elections. All I am able to say is that I know that we are giving as much encouragement and support as we can to make sure that that process goes forward before the elections. For those who, like her, want to make sure that that situation persists in the future, the most powerful lever is the £4 billion of aid that outside countries give to Afghanistan, but we would all be foolish if we were to pretend that there was a simple thing that we could do to guarantee it. Like her, the Government are very concerned, and I know that the Foreign Office and DfID are doing everything they can to argue in the way that I know the noble Baroness would expect them to argue.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, does not hope attempt to triumph yet again over experience in this Statement? The Prime Minister says:

“we agreed to scrap unnecessary EU regulation that ties up our businesses in red tape when they should be growing and creating jobs”.

He goes on to announce the setting up of yet another business task force,

“to take a fresh and ambitious look at the impact of EU regulation on our companies”,

and so on.

What does the noble Lord say about the need for unanimity among all 28 members before we can retrieve a comma from the treaties of Rome, let alone a regulation or a power already ceded? I have written a few of those on the back of an envelope. What does this do for immigration, rubbish collection, post offices, light bulbs, car premiums, working time, our fishing industry, and financial supervision for the ruin of the City of London? Is this not just more wishful thinking, which is completely meaningless while we stay in the European Union?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, is the voice of experience, I will have to be the voice of hope. I take his point that one has to keep grinding away at these things over a long period of time. History suggests that, as was the case with our rebate negotiations, one has to keep on battling away.

On the point about reducing regulations, this was agreed, I think, in the Council back in March. Some small progress has been made by the Commission. However, the Prime Minister was very clear that the process was not as fast or as extensive as he would like, which is why he made another charge at the Council last week. I think it is worth setting up our own task force—I probably share some of the noble Lord’s scepticism about all sorts of task forces everywhere—to try to come up with some ideas of our own to show the way, looking specifically at the effect of regulations, how they might be reduced and how that might lead to more jobs, particularly in the context of young unemployed people, as we discussed earlier.

[Lord Eden of Winton]

My Lords, turning back to the very welcome progress report on Afghanistan, would my noble friend ask the Prime Minister to ensure that in any future discussions about developments for Afghanistan, regional leaders in other parts of Afghanistan are fully engaged in these discussions through the central authority?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That sounds an extremely sensible point to me. I am not an expert in the area or in those complex discussions and negotiations that need to go on, but I will certainly make sure that my friends at the Foreign Office are aware of the extremely sensible point that my noble friend has made.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, can the Minister clarify the numbers post-2014, because they are not at all clear? The MoD must have done this work already. How many personnel are we talking about for the defence academy? What is this protection force that we are talking about? It sounds a very open-ended thing to me. What sort of numbers are we talking about and where would they be? On what date will we give up Camp Bastion? Will we be abandoning it or handing it over to the Afghan authorities or to the Americans? Will we provide any air assets post the end of 2014? It is really rather important for us to get our minds round these numbers and issues.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I take that point. The noble Lord has illustrated one of the recurring problems in this House: that it is full of people who know what they are talking about. It makes my job extremely difficult. I will see what specific numbers I can find and I will be happy to circulate them. I know that the numbers envisaged are small. The numbers on the continuing support that would be made available to the national training academy are extremely low, but I take the noble Lord’s point about wanting specificity. If I am able to get better particulars, I will do so and will write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, the Leader of the House made several references to the post-2014 budget in Afghanistan. Does he accept that possibly the single most effective way to guarantee long-term post-war reconstruction in Afghanistan is to ensure that the rights of women are embedded in society in the new Afghanistan?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree with that point, which is a variant of the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Symons. In so far as we are able to do that, it is clearly Her Majesty’s Government’s intention to lend every effort to bring that about, as the noble Lord says. I cannot, for obvious reasons, guarantee that in a far-off country with a very different history and culture we can undertake to deliver that. However, I know that it is very much our intention.

[The Earl of Sandwich]

What will Afghan children remember about our intervention in Afghanistan over the past 10 years? The Statement implies that we are going to leave an entirely military legacy post-2014. Can the Leader of the House assure us that there will be a reconstruction conference? Investment must come in when ISAF goes out. We will have to shore up this country for several years to come, building up employment and jobs in particular.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I would hope that they might remember the efforts of a country to spread education, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister pointed out, the efforts of a country to spread and protect the rights and education of women, and the kind of efforts to which the noble Lord refers to help to get the economy working in a way that is not dependent on the awful trade in drugs. I can certainly reassure the noble Lord that, as I understand it, foreign Governments intend to carry on with a generous package of aid to try to help with precisely the kind of reconstruction, and getting Afghanistan on to a more secure footing, of the sort to which the noble Lord refers.

[Baroness Goudie]

My Lords, I welcome both Statements. On Afghanistan and the peace talks, under United Nations Security Council Resolution 1325 of 2000 and its amendments it was agreed that a number of women should be at the peace table. President Karzai does not really negotiate or deal with women, even those in his parliament. What are the Government going to do about that?

Secondly, there have been a number of honour killings, both in Pakistan and on the borders of Afghanistan, mainly of young girls and their mothers. Girls are now going out and about, and leaders and their families do not think that this is appropriate. We are seeing cases of this daily in the press. This is an issue which the Prime Minister has to take up as part of the peace process, and as part of our giving aid to Afghanistan.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

On the general point of trying to use our political and financial influence through aid, to try to emphasise the noble Baroness’s points, we will certainly do that. On the specific point of her first question, I need to find out whether there are specific bits of information on that, and what has happened, so that I might help her with it.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

How much will the new European budget settlement cost British taxpayers each year in both gross and net terms? On the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, I should point out to the Leader of the House that the hostility shown by the French at the summit gives some indication of the difficulties that the Prime Minister will have in altering the existing European Union treaties.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am afraid that the only figures I have to hand are those about the overall size of the budget over seven years and the reduction in it. I will need to come back to the noble Lord with more detailed figures on the effect on Britain year by year, if I can get them.

Business of the House

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Thursday 27th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That the debates on the motions in the names of Baroness Brinton and Lord Loomba set down for today shall each be limited to 2½ hours.

Motion agreed.

G8 Summit

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Wednesday 19th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows.

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on the G8. The Government decided to hold the G8 in Northern Ireland to demonstrate the strength of this part of the United Kingdom. We wanted to show the success of the peace process, the openness for business and investment and the potential for tourism and growth.

I want to thank my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the First and Deputy First Ministers for all they did to help with the conference. I want to congratulate the Police Service of Northern Ireland and all those responsible on delivering a safe and successful G8 and to thank everyone in Northern Ireland for giving everyone such a warm welcome. Northern Ireland put on its best face, and the whole world could see what a great place it is.

We set a clear agenda for this summit: to boost jobs and growth with more open trade, fairer taxes and greater transparency—what I have called the three Ts. I also added a fourth T—combating terrorism. We reached important agreements including on support to the Libyan Government and ending ransom payments for kidnap by terrorists. Despite our fundamental differences, we also made good progress agreeing a way forward on working together to help the Syrian people achieve the change that they want. Let me take each of these points in turn.

We started with the issue that matters most to our people—jobs, growth, mending our economies. First, we agreed that each country needs to press on with sorting out its public finances. Dealing with our debts and securing growth are not alternatives. The former is an essential step in achieving the latter. In fact the communiqué that we agreed unanimously reflects all three parts of the plan that we have for growth in Britain: not just fiscal sustainability, but active monetary policy to unlock the finance that businesses and families need, and structural reforms to increase our competitiveness so that our young people can get into work and succeed in the global race.

The UK’s G8 also launched a bold new pro-business agenda to drive a dramatic increase in trade and to get to grips with the problems of tax evasion, aggressive tax avoidance and corporate secrecy. This was a distinctive British agenda, to shape the way the world economy works for the benefit of everyone. We believe in free trade, private enterprise and low taxes as the best route to growth, but that is only sustainable if ambitious trade deals are agreed, the taxes owed are paid and companies play by the rules. This agenda has now, I believe, been written into the DNA of G8 and G20 summits, I hope for many years to come.

On trade, we started the summit with the launch of negotiations on an EU-US trade deal. This could add, as has recently been said, as much as £100 billion to the EU economy, £80 billion to the US and as much as £85 billion for the rest of the world. We should be clear what these numbers mean: more jobs, more choice and lower prices in the shops—the biggest bilateral trade deal in history, launched at the G8.

On tax, the Lough Erne declaration that leaders signed yesterday sets out simple, clear commitments. Tax authorities across the world should automatically share information so that those who want to evade taxes will have nowhere to hide. Companies should know who really owns them and tax collectors and law enforcers should be able to obtain this information easily—for example, through central registries—so that people cannot escape taxes by using complicated and fake structures. In a world where business has moved from the offline and the national to the online and the international but the tax system has not caught up, we are commissioning the OECD to develop a new international tax tool that will expose discrepancies between where multinationals earn their profits and where they pay their taxes.

The declaration also makes clear that all this action has to help developing countries too, by sharing tax information and building their capability to collect taxes. Crucially for developing countries, we agreed that oil, gas and mining companies should report what they pay to Governments, and that Governments should publish what they receive, so that natural resources are a blessing, not a curse. Charities and other NGOs have rightly campaigned for years for action on these issues and for the first time they have been raised to the top of the agenda and brought together in one document.

The agreements on tax made at the summit are significant but it is also worth noting what has happened on this front since I put this issue to the top of the agenda. On 1 January there was no single international standard for automatic exchange of information. Now there is such a standard and more than 30 jurisdictions have already signed up, with more to follow. After years of delay, the European Union has agreed to progress the sharing of tax information between member states. The overseas territories and Crown dependencies have signed up to the multilateral convention on information exchange. They have agreed automatic exchange of information with the UK and action plans for beneficial ownership. Taken together, all the actions agreed with the overseas territories and Crown dependencies will provide more than £1 billion of revenue to the Exchequer, helping to keep taxes down for hard-working families here in the UK.

People around the world also wanted to know if the G8 would take action to tackle malnutrition and ensure that there is enough food for everyone. The pledges at our nutrition and hunger summit earlier this month will save 20 million children from stunting by 2020. But crucially at our G8 we also took action on some of the causes of these problems. This is why the work we did on land, extractive industries, tax and transparency is so important.

Turning to the fourth T—terrorism—we agreed a tough, patient and intelligent approach: confronting the terrorists, defeating the poisonous ideology that sustains them and tackling the weak and failing states in which they thrive. The G8 leaders reached a ground-breaking agreement on ransom payments for kidnap by terrorists. In the past three years alone, these ransom payments have given al-Qaeda and its allies tens of millions of dollars. These payments have to stop and this G8 agreed that they will.

We also discussed plans to begin direct talks with the Taliban. Britain has long supported a peace process in Afghanistan to work alongside our tough security response, so we welcome this step forward. We also discussed support to Libya. I believe that we should be proud of the role we played to rid Libya of Colonel Gaddafi, but we need to help that country secure its future. So we held a separate meeting with the Libyan Prime Minister, which included President Obama, and European nations have already offered to train 7,000 troops to help Prime Minister Zeidan disarm and integrate the militias and bring security to the whole country. More contributions will follow from others. Let me be clear that the Libyan Government have now asked for this and that they will pay for it.

Finally, let me turn to Syria. It is no secret that there are very different views around the G8 table. I was determined that we should use the opportunity of this summit to overcome some of these differences and agree a way forward to help the Syrian people achieve the change that they want. This did not happen during just one night in Lough Erne. The talks between Secretary Kerry and Foreign Minister Lavrov have been vital. In the weeks before the summit I flew to Sochi and Washington, and I met again with President Putin and President Obama in the hours before the summit began. These conversations were open, honest and frank, but we were all agreed on what must be the core principle of the international approach to this crisis. There is no military victory to be won and all our efforts must be focused on the ultimate goal of a political solution.

Together with our G8 partners we agreed almost $1.5 billion of new money for humanitarian support. This is an unprecedented commitment from Lough Erne for Syria and its neighbours. We agreed to back a Geneva II process that delivers a transitional governing body, crucially with full executive authority. So a core requirement for success that had been called into doubt in recent weeks has now been reasserted unanimously with the full authority of the G8.

We pledged to learn the lessons of Iraq by making sure that the key institutions of the state are maintained through the transition and there is no vacuum. This sends a clear message to those loyalists looking for an alternative to Assad. The G8 also unequivocally condemned any use of chemical weapons, and following an extensive debate, we reached for the first time a united position, including Russia, that the regime must immediately allow unrestricted access for UN inspectors to establish the full facts on the use of chemical weapons by regime forces or indeed by anyone else. All of these agreements are absolutely fundamental to saving lives and securing the political transition that we all want to see.

Let us be clear on what is happening in Syria and what we are trying to achieve. We are faced with a dramatically escalating humanitarian disaster with more than 90,000 dead and almost 6 million people having had to flee their homes. There is a radicalisation of terrorists and extremists who will pose a direct threat to the security of the region and the world. There is a growing risk to the peace and stability of Syria’s neighbours, and the long-standing international prohibition on chemical weapons is being breached by a dictator who is brutalising his people.

None of this constitutes an argument for plunging in recklessly. We will not do so, and we will not take any major actions without first coming to this House. But we cannot simply ignore this continuing slaughter. Of course it is right to point out that there are extremists among the opposition. There are, and I am clear: they pose a threat not just to Syria but to all of us. The G8 agreed they should be defeated and expelled from their havens in Syria.

I also understand those who fear that whatever we try to do could make things worse, not better. Of course we must think carefully before any course of action. But we must not accept what President Assad wants us to believe—that the only alternative to his brutal action against Syria is extremism and terrorism. There are millions of ordinary Syrians who want to take control of their own future, a future without Assad. That is why I made sure that the G8 agreed that the way through this crisis is to help Syrians to forge a new Government that is neither Sunni, Alawite nor Shia.

We are committed to using diplomacy to end this war with a political solution. This is not easy, but the essential first step must be to get agreement between the main international powers with influence on Syria. That is what we have done at the G8 in Lough Erne. We must now turn these commitments into action. I commend this Statement to the House”.

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[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, first, I associate myself very strongly with the point that the noble Baroness made about holding the G8 in Northern Ireland in the first place. A long time ago, when I worked for one of my former bosses, John Major, he started this whole process in Northern Ireland, which the Labour Government then built on. It shows that if people are brave enough and stick at it, they can achieve great things. It was a tribute to the work of many people to have brought that about. It helped boost the economy, and it was a very powerful message all around the world of what can be achieved.

I agreed with the points that the noble Baroness made about the importance of the hunger summit, which happened the week before the G8 summit in Lough Erne. I was very glad that more funding was provided at the summit and that more ambitious goals were set down on what we might be able to do to tackle the problem of children suffering from malnutrition and, indeed, to prevent the deaths of young children. We believe that there may be 1.7 million children whose lives we may be able to save through that programme.

On our approach generally to international aid, we have kept that pledge. I think that that is right and that it lends us moral authority—which I think was the phrase that the noble Baroness used—and helps us deliver some of the other important policies that we are trying to take forward.

On trade deals, the beginning of a negotiation between the EU and the US on a trade deal was announced. It is only a beginning but if it comes in it will lead to many billions of pounds. The Prime Minister was clear earlier today on the benefits to the UK of being in the single market. I think that it is in the interest of all of us to try to make sure that this deal is concluded.

As for public registries of beneficial ownership, every country at the summit agreed to an action plan. Some have said that they will move straightaway to have these registries. So far as Britain is concerned, we have said that we will consult on the question of whether or not they should be public. We clearly need to keep pressing. I think that six of the G8 countries have already published an action plan on this at Lough Erne, and we have moved quite a long way on it.

The noble Baroness is absolutely right about the importance of information sharing applying to developing countries—I agree with her entirely on that. The whole point about this is that it is not just about the developed countries making sure that we all get the proper tax but that if we can deliver that across these countries, those developing countries which need to have their tax revenues paid would benefit as well.

On Syria, I was glad of the welcome that the noble Baroness gave to the increase in humanitarian aid generally and to the UK’s contribution specifically. We need a political solution, as she said. I am not able to give a date for when the Geneva II talks will start. It was discussed at Lough Erne but the decision taken there was to try to get agreement on the substance rather than on a specific date. However, it was clear that there was a sense of urgency, and the G8 called for it to happen as soon as possible.

As for the G8 summit moving us closer to a political settlement in Syria, I think that it is fair to say that before the G8 summit the Russians seemed to be backing away from a transitional authority with full executive powers, but they have now reaffirmed their support for one. We also now have the language, for the first time, on our approach to the use of chemical weapons. That is new and I think that it will help. As for the time and effort spent on lifting the arms embargo, we felt that it was right to do so. We think that it has helped to increase the diplomatic pressure on that.

As the noble Baroness knows, no decision has been taken to arm the rebels at all—the Government have been very clear about that. It is a hypothetical question. However, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has made it clear that, were the Government to make that decision, Parliament would obviously have a say in it. On her final point about whether I would seek to make sure that the House is kept informed on all these developments, the answer is yes, of course, I will seek to do so in the normal way.

[Lord Brittan of Spennithorne]

Will my noble friend agree that the last time a serious attempt was made to reach a wide-ranging trade agreement between the United States and the European Union it foundered on the absolute refusal of the US regulatory agencies to agree to any degree of mutual recognition, let alone harmonisation, and that unless at the very highest level action is taken to deal with that blockage, this attempt will be no more successful than the last? Is it not therefore absolutely necessary that there should be a focus on this issue?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am sure that that advice from my noble friend is extremely wise. I know how closely involved he has been over the years with many of these negotiations. It is clear that this issue was given a great deal of importance at the highest level, during the conversations between our Prime Minister and the President of the United States at the G8. Obviously we are at the beginning of the negotiations; I think the first meeting is due to start next month. However, I am sure that all those charged with the responsibility of trying to bring about this extremely important deal will know of the history. If they do not, they will have been reminded of it by my noble friend and will bear that in mind as they try to secure this important deal.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

Does the Minister agree that the question of regime change now bandied around in our newspapers gives people a sense of déjà vu, when at the same time we are looking at a peace conference? The idea on the Arab street that the West can be involved in regime change will possibly only have the result that the dispute between Alawites and Shia and Sunni Muslims will not be left to them but will also become our dispute.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I understand the point the noble Lord makes. It was said at the G8 that if we can get the G8 and other countries working together to bring about a political situation by bringing their different pressures to bear—whether it is the Russians, the Americans, or whoever—that must be worth trying.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for the Statement. This was one of the most successful G8 summits of recent times. The Minister was right to point out the three factors: trade, transparency and tax. Does he accept that they would considerably help not only developed but underdeveloped nations, and would make a real difference to the lives of ordinary people? There is a serious concern about our involvement in Syria. We certainly welcome the idea of and the arrangements for a peace conference, whenever it will take place. However, more than 93,000 people have been killed, and extremism has surfaced from both the Assad Government and the opposition. The Minister was slightly hesitant, but does he accept that Parliament will decide whether there is a need for further involvement in relation to the supply of arms, or any further action the Government takes?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

On my noble friend’s first points about the importance of trade, tax and transparency for the developing world, he is of course entirely right. We are aiming for more trade and to break down the barriers. Coming out of the G8 we are very keen to make progress at the WTO conference this December. For instance, we will try to break down trade barriers in Africa, where they have a terribly detrimental effect on the ability of people to do business and also affect the tax revenues that flow from that. We aim to make that easier and more straightforward so that tax is paid. We also want to make the system more transparent so that money from industries such as the extractive industries will go into legitimate purposes to help those economies and societies, rather than into a small number of very deep pockets. I agree with him on that.

On Syria, I hope that I gave a clear answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. Both my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister have made clear that, were a decision taken by the Government to arm one side in Syria, which it has not been, that Parliament would certainly have its say.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, I have warned many times in the past 15 months, as have many others in both Houses, against the folly of military intervention in Syria and I have no need to repeat that warning this afternoon. However, if there is any substance behind the allegation in the Times today that the West is trying to engineer a coup in Damascus, I hope that the noble Lord’s right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, distinguished historian as he is, needs no reminding of the disastrous results of some previous attempts by outsiders to change regimes in the Middle East. Not only would such attempts, if successful, almost certainly produce a Government in Damascus of much greater threat to British interests than the present regime, it would directly contradict the Government’s repeated view that any future regime is for the Syrian people to decide. Can the Leader of the House assure us that HMG are playing, and will play, no part in any such attempt at regime change—what the Statement describes as helping Syrians to “forge a new Government”? Finally, I ask the noble Lord for an assurance that if, as we all must hope, a peace conference can be arranged, HMG will not oppose the participation of Iran.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, the noble Lord, as he said, has been very clear and consistent on his position on this issue for 15 months and, I am sure, longer. I recognise that and I am sure that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary will be aware of that. On the noble Lord’s specific questions, I do not think it sensible for me to go any further than the Statement; I am obviously not involved in those negotiations. I know that those who are involved will have heard what he has said and I will make sure that his consistent warnings about this are relayed to them. Clearly, as we have already said, we are seeking a political solution that is acceptable to the Syrian people. That is what we are working for.

[The Lord Bishop of Liverpool]

My Lords, we on these Benches very much welcome the direction of travel on taxes, trade and transparency. Can the Minister tell us what steps Her Majesty’s Government will take to ensure that these three Ts figure strongly on the agenda of the G20 summit later this year?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That is an extremely good question. I can tell the right reverend Prelate that the hope, expectation and intention coming out of the G8 is very much that some of this detailed work on tackling tax evasion, aggressive tax avoidance and transparency will be taken forward by the G20 and the OECD. Behind the simple, 10-point declaration that summarised the headline points at the summit is a much longer, more detailed communiqué that sets out the much more detailed steps of the sort to which the right reverend Prelate refers.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

Does the agreement at the G8 to ban ransom payments to terrorists, which is very welcome, include banning payments to pirates who capture individuals? The noble Lord has probably heard me say several times in the past three years that this problem is of at least equal dimension.

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[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I will need to come back to the noble Lord on whether the agreement covers such payments. Its intention was to eliminate the scourge of ransom payments, but how they are defined in detail is something that I will have to follow up with him.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

Does my noble friend recognise how much I echo what has been said, how much I welcome the fact that the conference has been held successfully in Enniskillen—having been all too close to the outrage and tragedy that took place there—and how I am reflecting on the irony of how the world has moved forward? That outrage was almost certainly committed with Libyan explosives, but the new Prime Minister of Libya was present at the G8. I hope very much that one of the outcomes of the G8 will be a better future for Libya. I echo what the noble Lord said. There must be political discussions about the future of Syria; they must be held by everybody without preconditions, which is one of the lessons of Northern Ireland for making progress; and obviously it would be enormously helpful if Iran were present as well.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I understand the second point made by my noble friend, which echoed that made by the noble Lord, Lord Wright. On the first point about Northern Ireland, the noble Lord knows better than most in the Chamber what the situation was and the extent of the work that had to be done. He was closely involved with that. It is a powerful symbol of what can be achieved if people are prepared to take those brave decisions.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, perhaps I may explore the assurance in the Statement that Parliament will have its say on Syria. Do I take it that there will have to be specific parliamentary approval, as the convention has now grown?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Yesterday, at some length, and earlier today, the Prime Minister set out what that means: were the Government to decide that they wanted to arm the rebels—which they have not—it would be subject to a vote.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, coming from Northern Ireland, perhaps I may say how delighted I am at the success of the G8 conference in County Fermanagh. It has promoted Northern Ireland as a stable society. It has been good for our tourism. We should pass on from Northern Ireland our appreciation to the Prime Minister for selecting Northern Ireland as the part of the United Kingdom where the G8 conference would be held. Is the Leader of the House aware that this has been not only good publicity for Northern Ireland but also successful economically? In the past 10 days we have had another 1,500 new jobs announced in Northern Ireland. Just this morning, the Japanese Prime Minister, who remained in Northern Ireland following the conclusion of the G8, announced a further investment of 400 new jobs in County Antrim.

Turning to the question of transparency in our banks, we know that new standards will be introduced. Since international companies within the United Kingdom have been transferring their corporation tax payments to other countries to avoid tax, and British overseas territories have been fingered as possible places to avoid tax, can the Government guarantee that the five small sovereign states within Europe that use the euro—Monaco, San Marino, the Vatican, Lichtenstein and Andorra—will be subject to the same standards of transparency?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I had not heard those latest figures on Northern Ireland, and I am delighted to hear them. They are further evidence of the benefits of holding the G8 there and the wisdom of doing so. I am very grateful for the remarks made by the noble Lord. On his more general point about tax avoidance and so on, this whole approach will clearly only work if it is applied on a level basis across all countries. The aim of much greater transparency is at the heart of this approach. An example is publishing information on where countries pay tax in order to work out where the profits are. Trying to make that approach across a broad front lies at the heart of what was agreed at the G8.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, this has been an usually successful and constructive conference. The proposals being made on taxation regarding transparency and so on should certainly have a pretty rapid and significant effect on tax evasion, but they will have only a relatively limited effect on aggressive tax avoidance. Consulting internationally is certainly welcome, as the Statement says in relation to the OECD. However, at the end of the day, it is a matter for taxation in this country. Multinationals which use these aggressive techniques in this country have said that doing so is within the law. This is true, but it means that our law needs to be changed, which is a very technical subject. The law needs to relate to profits made in this country, and in some way enact a tax on the profits of online transactions which originate in this country. I hope that we will not overlook that side when looking at the international aspect of the matter.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That point is well made. I hope that the drive towards greater transparency will flush out and illustrate some of the problems to which my noble friend refers, solutions to which can then be worked on in the way that he suggests.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale]

My Lords, all of us who took part in the debate last Thursday will be delighted that there has been some progress on tax and transparency at the G8 summit. I hope that the steps that were agreed will prove to be significant. I have questions about two of these steps in particular, the first being the agreement made with the UK dependencies and territories last weekend. If they do not fulfil the promises made at that meeting, what further steps will the UK Government take to ensure that they do so? Secondly, I welcome the statement in the communiqué that there will be capacity building in the developing world, to help those countries legislate for and collect taxes under this new system. What will the UK do to help countries build their capacity for tax revenue collection?

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[Lord Hill of Oareford]

On the second point, concerning the specific detail of what we will do, I will follow that up with the noble Lord. There are some specific steps being taken. We are making available people who understand the detail of how the system works in order to help in precisely the way that the noble Lord says is necessary. We will do so because it is obviously right to help developing countries understand the complexities of the tax system and the kind of behaviour that goes on. It is not only Britain, but also other countries which will help to do that. If I can provide more detail, I will do so.

On the first point, about what do we will do if Crown dependencies or the overseas territories do not live up to their promises, my answer is, “Let us hold their feet to the fire and ensure that they do live up to their promises”. They made that commitment. It came out of the G8 very clearly that not only the United Kingdom but all G8 member countries will hold them and other jurisdictions to account on that, and will want to see progress made.

[Lord Soley]

I urge the Government not to raise too many expectations on the quick arrival of a Geneva conference. Listening to Mr Putin’s comments in Russia and at the summit, he has made it very clear that he intends not only to continue to arm the present regime but also to, in his words, draw up new contracts for arms with it. That, to me, conveys very clearly Russia’s intention to argue at a Geneva conference for a regime which is in control of as much territory as possible. I am afraid that means continued fighting and refugee problems for the Middle East, and little hope of a successful outcome. We need to face up to the fact that Mr Putin has again managed to take us back to that old system whereby we prop up dictators, whoever is the strong one in power.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Obviously, I hope that the noble Lord’s warnings will turn out to be wrong, and not like Cassandra’s. However, I understand why he makes the point. He is clearly wise to say that one should not set unrealistic timescales and all the rest of it in terms of Geneva II, which was one of the conclusions that the G8 reached. Notwithstanding his points, it is fair to say that progress was made at the summit in terms of Russia making commitments that it had not previously made. We all have to hope that, on the back of that, we will be able to make the progress that I know the noble Lord and the whole House would like to see.

Business of the House

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Thursday 6th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That the debates on the Motions in the names of Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Dubs set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.

Motion agreed.

Business

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Monday 3rd June 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, the whole House will have been disturbed and dismayed by the reports in the press over the weekend and today, relating to the alleged misconduct of particular Members of our House. Therefore, I thought I should tell the House that the Sub-Committee on Lords’ Conduct agreed earlier today to a request from the House of Lords Commissioner for Standards, Mr Paul Kernaghan, that he proceed to investigate the three Members of the House against whom allegations have been made. Independent external investigation of these allegations is therefore in hand.

To one extent, thanks to the Leader of the Opposition when she was Leader of the House, we are in a better position than in the past. For the past three years we have had in place a clear code of conduct to regulate our behaviour as Members of this House and we have had an independent Commissioner for Standards, whose task it is to investigate whether there has been a breach of that code. I am pleased that the necessary preliminary steps to secure a proper investigation have already been taken. From this point, it is now over to the commissioner, who will make his report on each case to the Sub-Committee on Lords’ Conduct.

The allegations made at the weekend are very serious and distressing to us all. I know that I speak for the leaders of all the parties and the Convenor when I say that they do not reflect the House that we know, or the Members who work here out a sense of public service and a desire to hold the Government to account and revise legislation—work to which I suggest we now turn.

Woolwich and the EU Council

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Monday 3rd June 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows.

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on the recent European Council and also update the House on the dreadful events in Woolwich.

The European Council was called specifically to discuss energy policy and tax evasion. We also discussed the situation in Syria, prior to the lifting of the arms embargo agreed at the Foreign Affairs Council last week.

On energy policy, we agreed to continue our efforts to complete the single market in energy so that we drive competition between suppliers and force prices down. We also put down a marker to get rid of unnecessary regulation in making the most of indigenous resources such as shale gas. Europe has three-quarters as much shale as the United States, yet while the Americans are drilling 10,000 wells a year we in Europe are drilling fewer than 100. We must extract shale in a safe and sustainable manner but we have to do more to ensure that old rules designed for different technologies do not hold us back today.

On tax, to crack down on tax evasion you need proper exchange of tax information. In Europe, this has been stalled for decades because of the selfish actions of a minority of countries. I made tackling tax evasion a headline priority for our chairmanship of the G8. This has enabled us to ramp up the pressure and make some real progress. So at the European Council we agreed that there should be a new international standard of automatic information exchange between tax authorities and proper information on who really owns and controls each and every company.

On Syria, the situation continues to deteriorate. There is a humanitarian crisis so Britain is leading the way with humanitarian support. We need diplomatic pressure to force all sides to come to the table; and in recent weeks I have held talks with Presidents Putin and Obama to help try to bring that about. But we have to be clear: unless we do more to support the opposition, the humanitarian crisis will continue, the political transition will not happen and the extremists will flourish. That is why it is right to lift the EU arms embargo on the Syrian opposition. There needs to be a clear sense that Assad cannot fight his way to victory, nor use the talks to buy more time to slaughter Syrians in their own homes and on their own streets.

I regret to say that the EU arms embargo served the extremists on both sides. It did not stop Assad massacring his people, it did not stop the Russians sending him arms and it did not stop Islamist extremists getting their hands on weapons either. It just sent a signal that for all its words, the EU had no real ability to support the responsible opposition that could be the basis of an inclusive transition. That is why the Foreign Secretary and the French Foreign Minister secured agreement to lift the arms embargo in Brussels last week.

We should also be clear about the Syrian national coalition. They have declared their support for democracy, human rights and an inclusive future for all minorities, and we—not just in Britain but across the EU—have recognised them as legitimate representatives of the Syrian people. The EU has agreed a common framework for those who, in the future, may decide to supply them with military equipment and there are clear safeguards to ensure that any such equipment would be supplied only for the protection of civilians and in accordance with international law.

This does not mean that we in the UK have made any decision to send arms, but we do now have the flexibility to respond if the situation continues to deteriorate. However, with 80,000 killed, 5 million having fled from their homes, rising extremism and major regional instability, those who argue for inaction must realise that that has its consequences too.

Let me turn to the dreadful events in Woolwich. I am sure the whole House will join me in sending our deepest condolences to the friends and family of Drummer Lee Rigby. What happened on the streets of Woolwich shocked and sickened us all. It was a despicable attack on a British soldier who stood for our country and our way of life. And it was a betrayal of Islam and of the Muslim communities who give so much to our country.

There is nothing in Islam that justifies acts of terror, and I welcome the spontaneous condemnation of this attack from mosques and Muslim community organisations right across our country. We will not be cowed by terror and terrorists who seek to divide us will only make us stronger and more united in our resolve to defeat them.

Let me update the House on the latest developments in this investigation, on the role of the Intelligence and Security Committee and on the next steps in our ongoing efforts to fight extremism in all its forms.

While the criminal investigation is ongoing, there remains a limit on what I can say. Two men, Michael Adebowale and Michael Adebolajo, have been charged with the murder of Drummer Lee Rigby. Both are appearing in court today. There have now been 10 further arrests as part of the ongoing investigation. Two women have been released without charge, and eight men have been released on bail. The police and security services will not rest until they have brought all of those responsible to justice.

I am sure the whole House will join me in paying tribute to the work of our police and security services for all they do to keep us safe from violent extremists. Already this year there have been three major counterterror trials in which 18 people were found guilty and sentenced to a total of 150 years in prison. Much more of the work of our security services necessarily goes unreported. They are Britain's silent heroes and heroines and the whole country owes them an enormous debt of gratitude.

It is important that we learn the lessons of what happened in Woolwich. This Government strengthened the Intelligence and Security Committee and gave it additional powers to investigate the activities of the intelligence agencies. I have agreed with my right honourable friend the Member for Kensington this morning that his committee will investigate how the suspects were radicalised; what we knew about them; whether any more could have been done to stop them; and the lessons we must learn. The committee hopes to conclude its work around the end of the year.

To tackle the threat of extremism we must understand its root causes. Those who carried out this callous and abhorrent crime sought to justify their actions by an extremist ideology that perverts and warps Islam to create a culture of victimhood and justify violence. We must confront this ideology in all its forms.

Since coming into government we have made sure the Prevent strategy focuses on all forms of extremism, not just violent extremism. We have closed down more websites and intervened to help many more people vulnerable to radicalisation. Since 2011 the Home Secretary has excluded more preachers of hate from this country than ever before through our Prevent work; 5,700 items of terrorist material have been taken down from the internet; and almost 1,000 more items have been blocked where they are hosted overseas. But it is clear that we need to do more.

When young men born and bred in this country are radicalised and turned into killers we have to ask some tough questions about what is happening in our country. It is as if for some young people there is a conveyor belt to radicalisation that has poisoned their minds with sick and perverted ideas. We need to dismantle this process at every stage: in schools, in colleges, in universities, in our prisons, on the internet—wherever it is taking place.

This morning I chaired the first meeting of the Government's new task force on tackling extremism and radicalisation. I want the task force to ask serious questions about whether the rules on charities are too lax and allow extremists to prosper; whether we are doing enough to disrupt groups that incite hatred, violence or criminal damage; whether we are doing enough to deal with radicalisation in our university campuses, on the internet and in our prisons; how we can work with informal education centres, such as madrassas, to prevent radicalisation; and whether we do enough to help mosques expel extremists and recruit imams who understand Britain.

We will also look at new ways to support communities as they come together and take a united stand against all forms of extremism. Just as we will not stand for those who pervert Islam to preach extremism, neither will we stand for groups like the English Defence League who try to demonise Islam and stoke up anti-Muslim hatred by bringing disorder and violence to our towns and cities.

Let us be clear: the responsibility for this horrific murder lies with those who committed it. But we should do all we can to tackle the poisonous ideology that is perverting young minds. That is not just a job for the security services and the police, it is work for us all. I commend this Statement to the House”.

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[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for her overall welcome, and I associate myself very much with many of the points that she made, particularly about the awful situation in Woolwich.

On the noble Baroness’s specific questions on the Statement and the proposals on tax, our view—and it may be hers as well—is that it is best if this is done on an international basis. We can use the G8—as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is doing—the G20 and the OECD to drive that agenda forward. We need to take action. It is a global problem and it is best to address it in that way.

I agree very much with the noble Baroness’s comments about the overall situation in Syria. I think she said that there are no good options and that we are talking about the least bad option, and I very much take that point.

On Geneva 2, the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary—the Government—have always been clear that we are very much in favour of a negotiated political solution, so we welcome the fact that the Russian/American talks will be taking place. That is why my right honourable friend the Prime Minister himself has had talks with Presidents Putin and Obama to try to bring about diplomatic pressure, so that all sides will come to the table.

As for the risks of lifting the EU arms embargo, as the Statement made clear, it would be wrong to deny that there are risks with all courses of action. However, the risks of inaction are also clear to see. As the noble Baroness made clear in her comments about the numbers of those already displaced and suffering and the numbers who have been killed, the price of doing nothing is extraordinarily high.

As for the safeguards on the use of weapons, the framework agreed at the Council made it clear that any provision of arms would be only to the Syrian national coalition, and it has to be intended for the protection of civilians. There are safeguards to ensure that delivery goes to the right hands, and confirmation that existing obligations on arms exports remain in place.

As for the flexibility of the embargo, the Foreign Secretary regularly updates the House of Commons on developments. I know that he will continue to do so. Things can move fast and he needs to be able to reflect and respond to that.

On Woolwich, I associate myself with the noble Baroness’s praise for the local leaders. I agree with her about the three things she set out that we, all of us together, need to do—to bring the perpetrators to justice, to bring people together and to learn the lessons. I am grateful to her for her welcome for the new task force on extremism and, indeed, for the role that the ISC will be carrying out. She made a number of practical suggestions on points to do with earlier intervention and with violent extremism and gangs and the link between them. They are very sensible points. There is no monopoly of wisdom here and we should be open to all kinds of sensible, intelligent suggestions from people who know, and try to take those into account.

As for communications data and legislation, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister earlier this afternoon made clear that we need to have a frank debate about this issue. There is a problem—we know that 95% of serious crimes involve the use of communications data—but it needs to be addressed in a sensitive and careful way. If we can find a way of getting cross-party support to take this forward that would be desirable.

Overall, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the support she gave for the steps that the Government have taken specifically on Woolwich, and I associate myself with the tributes that she paid to the people involved in that situation.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, perhaps I may remind the House of the benefit of short questions for my noble friend the Leader so that he can answer as many questions as possible.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, the Leader of the House referred to the Cameron/Rifkind discussions on the role of the ISC. Can we be assured that the ISC will not be prevented in any way from carrying out a full inquiry to report by December as a result of what the Leader referred to as the ongoing inquiries being carried out by the police? Can we be assured that the police inquiry will not stop the ISC inquiry from taking place?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, following the conversation that the Prime Minister had with the right honourable Member for Kensington this morning, I know that the ISC is able to go wherever it needs to go to carry out its inquiry. The timetable of reporting by the end of the year is the one to which it is working. If there is further information I can get to amplify that, I will come back to the noble Lord. My understanding is that the terms of reference, as it were, of the ISC have been agreed and the very clear view is that it should be able to carry out its inquiry and do its work in whatever way it thinks it needs to in order to look into the matters properly so we can all see and learn the lessons.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, I thank the Leader for repeating the Statement. Before I ask a couple of brief questions, I want to express my sentiments and those of this side of the House, as the Prime Minister did, to the family and friends of Drummer Lee Rigby. I was delighted that the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, from the Front Bench, was so forthright in her condemnation of what happened in Woolwich.

We fully endorse the need for transparency on tax matters and welcome the exchange of information between tax authorities internationally. Does my noble friend agree that it is time that law-abiding taxpayers are made aware of those who are involved in tax evasion? What arrangements are in hand to ensure that tax loopholes will be closed by legislation? With regard to the task force, it would be so nice to see representatives from minority ethnic communities being brought into it so that their contribution in trying to tackle the problem of radicalisation and terrorism could also be recognised.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, on the last point, I agree that it is important that we should draw on the widest possible experience and expertise in the way that my noble friend suggests. I am very grateful for his remarks and I know that he and his Benches share the feelings of the whole House about what happened in Woolwich. He is absolutely right to say what he said about that. With regard to transparency on tax matters, that is one of the main issues that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister will be pursing at the G8. He has made it one of the three legs he is pursuing in terms of the agenda at that summit meeting. My noble friend is right that we need to keep pursuing that but in a way that recognises that this is a global problem and we need to try to tackle it across the board.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, a couple of points arise. On taxation, does this not demonstrate that, far from the European Union involvement getting in the way of global agreement, as some people might argue, points (a) to (e) in the Council’s statement demonstrate that these are very good building blocks for the G8 and that the EU’s role is very helpful. On Syria, I echo the thrust of one of the questions from my noble friend Lady Royall. The country is swimming in arms—coming from this side and indeed an escalation tit-for-tat from Moscow. How is the option of sending more arms and that degree of armed support potential for the Syrian National Coalition squaring and compatible with us wishing to be seen as an honest broker at the conference in Geneva? Maybe there is a simple answer. I would be very glad to hear it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am not sure I will be able to give as simple an answer as the noble Lord would like. On his first point though, he and I may be in agreement. The EU can certainly help to play a part in this, as can the G8, the G20, the OECD and all the rest. With regard to arms for Syria, I emphasise again that no decision has been taken to send arms into the conflict. As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, it is clearly the case that the Government’s desired outcome, as it must be everyone’s, is that there should be a negotiated, peaceful, diplomatic solution. Lifting the embargo, we would argue, gives the Governments of EU member states the flexibility to bring pressure to bear on Assad to realise that the negotiated route is the way forward he needs to take. I agree with the noble Lord that if it is at all possible to secure that outcome that is the one we would all prefer.

[The Archbishop of Canterbury]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement from the Leader. Obviously we join in our sense of grief with the family of Lee Rigby. In the same way as the whole country will have been shocked and felt a loss of trust in human nature at this atrocious event, I am sure that, as the noble Baroness said, we will also be reassured and have a renewed sense of trust when we see the support that has come out from all sectors of the community for the family and also the courage of those such as Ingrid Loyau-Kennett. Does the noble Lord agree that preventing future atrocities like this in the UK requires international action to improve dialogue, especially where there is widespread violence in the name of faith, which tends to slide over into our own country, often with impunity, and also supporting those resisting attacks in the name of faith or suffering such violence themselves in places such as west Africa and elsewhere?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I very much agree that there are multiple levels and stages of this. There are people born and bred in our own country who have been radicalised and we need to do what we can to address that problem. That is the focus of the work that the task force that was set up and had its first meeting today will address. We should also seek to encourage what can be done more broadly internationally to bring pressure to bear and to debate these issues.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, religion is much more important in many parts of the world than it is in England. The message that the West is against Islam is presented to the Islamic community across the world, and this is succeeding by default. Does the Leader of the House recall that British troops rescued Muslims from a secular regime which invaded Kuwait, from Orthodox Christians in Kosovo and from attacks by Orthodox Christians on Roman Catholic Christians in Croatia? Is it not about time that Her Majesty’s Government began to say, loud and clear, that on many occasions we have come to aid and support our Muslim neighbours?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I obviously agree that Britain and other western countries have made a contribution and that it is important that that message is communicated. It needs to be done in such a way that the message will have resonance. By the same token, it is extremely important that all members of local communities, whether they are Muslims, Christians or whoever, work in the way that the noble Lord suggests. They must make it clear that the fear that some people perhaps have is not based in reality, given the behaviour of this country and the West towards Islam.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, will the Minister give an assurance that the Government, in looking at tax evasion and capital being moved around, will also look at the rights of workers, many of whom are being abused by the very companies that evade taxation and then criticise our income support projects, which are there to make up those companies’ shortfalls? Secondly, will he join me in saying that not only are extreme forms of Islamophobia unacceptable, but that parents, teachers and youth workers should listen very carefully for those children who, because of what they hear at home, or because of prejudice or for other reasons, can be heard using the phrase “You’re a Muslim” as a term of abuse? It is low-level abuse but it is a problem. I remember the head of a school in Lancashire many years ago saying, “We don’t have to deal with this because we don’t have any of those children here”. However, that low-level abuse can lead to an atmosphere of hostility. I hope that the Leader will agree with me on that.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I certainly agree with the common-sense point that the noble Baroness makes, and I am sure that everyone would agree. On her first point, the particular Council meeting talked about tax, but I will make sure that my colleagues who deal with these things day to day have heard the noble Baroness’s remarks about employment rights and the rest of it.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew]

My Lords, as part of our memorial to the late Drummer Rigby, will my noble friend assure the House that the Government remain committed to the “Prevent” strand of counterterrorism policy, and that they will ensure that it is not deprived of funding, as it has been in the past two years? Further, will he give an assurance on behalf of the whole Government that the communications data issue will be reconsidered on the merits, on the evidence and on a multipartisan basis, and on no other foundation?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am aware of my noble friend’s strong views on the communications data point. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said this afternoon, we need to look at these issues extremely carefully, in a sensitive way but bearing in mind those facts of the sort to which my noble friend refers. On his first point, it is clearly the case that the “Prevent” strand of work that the Government carry out is extremely important. It has been successful in many ways. We will step up the focus of the Government’s work on addressing radicalisation, and we will obviously need to make sure that the agencies charged with that work are adequately funded.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, one feature that is common to the outrage in Woolwich, the attack on the French soldier at La Défense in Paris and 7/7 is not often remarked upon. The perpetrators of those acts, or at least some of them, were recent converts to Islam. Will the task force look at this phenomenon? Obviously, it needs to work closely with the responsible leaders of the Muslim community, who stand to lose the most from any increase in such racial tension as the Government, properly, try to drain the swamp. Will the Minister also look at schools, on which he is an expert, and at what is being done in some of the Saudi-financed schools and the effect on the young people there?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The noble Lord raises two very pertinent points, both in terms of schools—madrassahs—and universities, where there are clearly issues. It is right that the task force set up will want to talk to community leaders about these things, and I am sure that it will want to look into the kind of broad issues to which the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, refers.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

The Statement says that the murder of Drummer Rigby was a “betrayal of Islam”, and that there is nothing in Islam which justifies acts of terror. However, since 9/11 some 107,000 people have been killed and some 174,000 injured, most of them Muslim, in many thousands of attacks, the perpetrators of which claim Islam and the Koran as their inspiration. In my Oral Question this afternoon, therefore, I asked the Government whether they would encourage a gathering of great Islamic clerics—the grand muftis and the ulema—to agree to issue a fatwa against the jihadists, to cast them out of Islam and to declare that they are no longer Muslim. I regret to say that the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, failed to answer that Question. Would the Leader of the House now care to do so? Surely this huge problem can be cured only from within the Muslim community.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

It is clearly the case, as the noble Lord says, that the Muslim community needs to be very closely involved in everything we do to address this problem. In many of these cases, particularly in the recent case of poor Lee Rigby, it is encouraging that the Muslim community has been very clear in its condemnation of what happened. I am not sure that it is within my gift, powerful though the Leader of the House is in theory, to convene a global gathering of muftis. I find it hard enough to convene a gathering of three or four Peers in your Lordships’ House. However, I am sure that my noble friend Lady Warsi will have heard the noble Lord’s point again.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, in Northern Ireland we made progress when our Governments were prepared to talk to people who engaged in violence. In order, as the Prime Minister said, to,

“tackle the threat of extremism”,

and “understand its root causes”, should we not be prepared to have conversations with those whose actions in this country, part of the UK, we in no way condone? Talking to perpetrators does not amount to endorsing their views or their actions, but we can learn.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has made clear that in trying to address this issue he is keen to learn from a range of people. The Government already do that; they challenge people and can learn from that. However, I am not able to say whether we will be able to go as far as my noble friend specifically suggests.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, the noble Lord said that lifting the EU arms embargo in Syria has provided the basis for individual member states to exercise some influence as and when they decide to sell arms. However, was not the lifting of the EU embargo itself potentially a major instrument of influence on both sides in the Syrian civil war? Would it not have been more sensible to have made lifting that embargo contingent on the behaviour of both parties, for example at the forthcoming Geneva talks? Have we not thrown away a particularly valuable diplomatic instrument rather prematurely?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

As I said in reply to an earlier question, clearly the Geneva talks are extremely important and we all want them to go as well as they possibly can. The argument in favour of the step that the French, British and other member states took last week was that the decision gives them greater flexibility. They and we are not saying that we want to take this step, but it gives us greater flexibility. We hope that that will lead to the kind of pressure to which the noble Lord refers, and to a sensible outcome at the Geneva 2 talks.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas]

Will my noble friend confirm that, with regard to the future, there is a clear distinction to be drawn between freedom of speech and incitement to commit crimes of violence that results in such crimes, and that the latter can most certainly be proceeded against?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree with both points that my noble friend has made. Freedom of expression is important and we are always keen to hold on to that vital principle in our country. However, by the same token, we must be able to act against people who step across the line and incite violent extremist behaviour, and that is what the Government want to do.

Soft Power Committee

Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts

Tuesday 14th May 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That it is desirable that a Select Committee be appointed to examine the use of soft power in furthering the United Kingdom’s global influence and interests, and to make recommendations, and that the Committee do report by 14 March 2014.

Motion agreed.