Brexit: Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Haselhurst (Con)]

My Lords, I feel somewhat handicapped in that this is only my first speech in your Lordships’ House since my maiden speech, and because there is very little original left to say when you are the 90th-plus contributor to this important debate. My views were best summed up in the opening speech of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, whose stance was followed by several other noble Lords.

Unlike my noble friend Lord Mancroft, who is not in his place, I believe there is some advantage in looking to the past, and I can offer only a personal view. I remember being carried in my mother’s arms to a neighbour’s air raid shelter while the drone of aircraft was overhead. That made a profound impression on me, even though I was so young. After the war, visiting my grandfather, we were in his garden and he was talking to me about cricket—he was a Yorkshireman—and then his mood changed. It was a gloomy day, with dark clouds. He said to me, “I went to the Great War, so your father wouldn’t have to fight. I clearly failed, and your father felt much the same as I had done, in that he was hoping to protect you from going to war. We both failed”. In fact, I did not have to go to war, and I have been able to look my children in the eye and say that there is no prospect of them having to go to war.

I was inspired by the speeches of the post-war statesmen, notably Winston Churchill, on how we could build a better Europe, putting aside 2,000 years of conflict. We had NATO to defend Europe from the Soviet threat, and the development of the European Economic Community to ensure that the countries of western Europe were not able to fight each other again. We created a prospect for young people that was far more attractive than anything that had faced previous generations. The paradox, if the evidence is correct, is that the people who voted to leave the European Union were mostly elderly, and those who voted to stay were the young. It is extraordinary that the people who ought to be able to remember the past were prepared to forget it, and think that something else lay ahead.

After the war, we had to relaunch our economy and found we needed a bigger domestic market, not because we wished to exclude the rest of the world—we needed that base as we could not have our companies competing against each other within a small island. A larger market meant you had the strength to sell goods and services across the world. I find it quite difficult to think that we should cast aside the market to which we export 40% of our goods on the promise that we might then be able to do better deals with the rest of the world. Bulldog spirit appeals to sentiment will not achieve trade deals—you have to get down to detail. If we contracted deals with China, India or the United States, would it be interpreted as our becoming a vassal state to them? That sort of the language is absurd. We need the economies of scale, and we should not forget that.

As noble Lords may have gauged, I am a disappointed remainer. I accept that anything other than staying in the European Union will be less satisfactory. In those circumstances, it is about finding the course of action that does the least damage. If I have to compromise, I expect others who voted to leave also to be capable of compromise, and to analyse the true interests of this country.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, in laying down the terms of the debate, did not refer to the referendum, other than in a throwaway sentence. We heard no appreciation of whether there is a solid view that we should ignore the referendum. Frankly, that is difficult territory to go into. We are seeing the rise of populism and nationalism across our continent, and further. If we said to 17.4 million people that we were going to ignore what they said, that would be a combustible situation. If you do not accept the referendum, you are immediately looking into compromise territory. However, you run risks if you say that the only way out is to have another people’s vote—though I listened with respect to my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft. If the result is to remain, there will be anger among those who feel that they voted the once and that was it. Or, if leave won again, we would be back to square one. What would happen to British business and commerce while that was going on?

We have to work on the basis of the present plan, which has been negotiated over a long period. I do not see that altering with a different leader of our country, or with a different Government. I hope we can conduct the discussion in future without some of the inflammatory language that has been used about immigration. I respect and agree with the words of the noble Duke, the Duke of Somerset.

We had a debate in your Lordships’ House on 5 November about the centenary of the Armistice. It was interrupted to discuss the details of citizens of the European Union coming into this country. I left the Chamber thinking that perhaps we have not yet learned all the lessons from the ills of the past.

Private Members’ Bills

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

Our intention is to publish the Government’s response within the two-month timeframe that has been long established under the conventions of the House. We will respond in detail to the proposals from the Procedure Committee. I am always willing to look with an open mind at proposals, whether from the hon. Lady or from other hon. Members, for changes to our procedures that command significant and, ideally, cross-party support. I do not intend this to be in any way a rejection of what she said, but sometimes proposals are made that, when examined more closely, turn out to have the support of a minority of Members, who feel strongly, but which do not command widespread support.

To respond to another point that the hon. Lady made, it remains the case, as it always has, that if a promoter of a private Member’s Bill has sufficient support among colleagues in all parts of the House to deal with closure motions or insist on a Second Reading, they can do so. Their ability to do so would reflect a genuine surge of support for their Bill from the House as a whole.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

As someone who has probably had the privilege of listening to more Friday debates than any other serving Member, I support the vehemence of my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), if not all the recommendations of the Procedure Committee. I hope that the Leader of the House is prepared to allow a fuller debate in which different ideas can be put forward, because we have really got to change the present arrangements.

[Mr Lidington]

I am happy to discuss further with my right hon. Friend his particular experience as a former Chairman of Ways and Means. I will consider the request for time to be made available, although I would gently say that time is available in the House for debates that is not within the gift of the Government but within the gift of Back Benchers.

Private Members’ Bills

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Wednesday 13th April 2016 Westminster Hall

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Jeff Smith) on finding an opportunity to raise this important matter, which is of concern not only to all parliamentarians but to those who watch our affairs. It is right that private Members should have the opportunity to initiate legislation, but we have to consider the terms on which that can best be done. They should be aware that they will always have doughty opponents—those Members who feel that private Members’ Bills must face a severer test than supposedly Government-tested legislation, and, of course, the Government of the day themselves.

The only point of dissent I felt with the speech of the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington was with his faint reference to the will of a Conservative Government. I appreciate that that is mostly what is seen in action at the moment, but the Lord High Executioner of private Members’ Bills is a Government Whip and we must recognise that that is the reality. A Member whose Bill is flying in the face of the policy of the Government of the day will have a very hard task. However, that is not to say that over a period of time a good idea sown in a private Member’s Bill may not be taken up and eventually gather support and become the law of the land.

We recognise that there are different types of Bills: there is the off-the-shelf Bill that is fairly innocuous in itself and gives a private Member the opportunity—the prestige, if you like—of having piloted a Bill through Parliament, and there are the new ideas that will vary in their attractiveness to colleagues and the public. I absolutely agree with the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington about the absurdities of Fridays, which do no good to Parliament’s image and are wearisome even for those who are here. I think I can make the claim, for what it is worth, that no other Member of this House has presided over as many Friday debates as I have, and it is a disgrace that we can find no better way of dealing with things.

As the hon. Gentleman said, false expectations are raised among the public. However, I would add the rider that, where campaign groups get involved, they should know through the people they employ as parliamentary officers when a Bill has a real chance of being debated and when it does not. They stoke up representations. Numbers of people wrote to me about the National Health Service Bill, which has been referred to, and it was nonsense to suppose that it would get serious attention, regardless of its merits or demerits. We take a lot of time to lower the expectations that have been falsely raised.

Everyone who has spoken so far has, I think, recognised that Fridays have become ever more precious to Members as constituency days; so what fresh approach could we take? I do not pretend to present a completely thought-through package, but I offer some thoughts. The first question to ask ourselves is how many private Members’ Bills it is reasonable to suppose might be brought forward in any one Session of Parliament. Bills produced by the various means now available are accumulating all the time, and that is going to ridiculous lengths; we end up, at the end of a Session, with 50, 60 or 70 Bills. That is obvious nonsense. It is more than any Government produce in a Queen’s Speech.

We should also look at the means by which the Bills can be born. The ten-minute rule Bill should be subject to particular scrutiny, because many Members who have the opportunity of a slot to persuade the House to let them introduce a Bill have not got as far as drafting it. Yet the impression is created among the public that there is a Bill in existence. That cannot be right. Certain other Parliaments, many of which function according to systems that closely resemble ours at Westminster, find slots in prime time that allow a Member to raise an issue but not necessarily to produce a Bill as a result. However, they can at least get prime time in which to reflect a matter of concern.

Another alternative, which the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington mentioned, is to think about Tuesday evenings; and I think I rather favour that. However, just as we have talked about whether Members want to be here on Fridays, we should recognise that quite a lot do not want to be here on a Tuesday evening—something that is reflected in the fact that we have advanced our sitting time to 11.30 with a finish time of 7. I am afraid that has been turbo-charged by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority rule under which colleagues who, in its view, live sufficiently close do not have taxpayer-supported accommodation close to Westminster—so they go home. That is unfortunate, but it is the truth of the matter. One can be bowled down in the Member’s cloakroom by people who are rushing to catch a train after a 7 o’clock vote. They would have no appetite to be here on a Tuesday evening.

Nevertheless, I would suggest that if a Bill could be guaranteed a three-hour slot at that time there should be a deferred Division. The whole House could then participate in Second Reading at some time. That might create a situation, depending on the number of Bills, as to how much time it will take to fill in the pink slip on the deferred Division—but it would mean the view of the House could be better reflected. I would say that only one Bill should be dealt with per Tuesday evening, so that a Bill—even if it is an off-the-shelf Bill that takes five minutes to go through—cannot be on the Order Paper as a means of holding up consideration of a second Bill. We should decide what is a reasonable number of Bills, and consider the number of Tuesday evenings that there will be in a Session. We could consider adding Wednesday evenings if we wanted to further multiply these opportunities.

If Bills get the chance of a Second Reading, should one have only one Committee channel for them, or should there be a second Committee channel? That is another option to consider. We then come to the more complicated business of Report and Third Reading. The hon. Gentleman hinted that the Backbench Business Committee might have some role in this. That is an elected Committee. A Member could appear before it as the promoter of a Bill that has got a Second Reading and negotiate to get time provided for Report. Third Reading, again, could be subject to a deferred Division.

We should think about the venue. Westminster Hall Chamber is now sufficiently mature. That matter is separate from the subject matter of this debate, but as part of any review of the use of this Chamber, we should consider whether there is a means by which there could be a proper ventilation of private Members’ Bills here, rather than necessarily in the main Chamber. I agree that time limits on speeches could, in the context of a more general reform, become a more common approach if demand is there.

Those are my thoughts. I hope they are helpful in considering the way forward. They are not perfectly rounded or anything of that kind. I add one final caution, if I may: when we use the term “will of the House”, we must be careful to recognise that that should be the will of the whole House, not just the will of 40 Members who have managed to get something through at the present time. The hon. Member for Manchester, Withington is right to raise this matter. The public are now viewing our proceedings on a Friday, wondering what the heck we are all about at that time, and we have to do better by them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Melanie Onn]

The important thing is that we should at least have the opportunity to vote on these things, which we do not have at the moment. If we are going to run a Parliament and say to people, “We’re here to influence change. We can properly represent you,” and then be denied that, it is the time for change.

As long as the Government are able to veto private Members’ Bills before they are voted on, the only Bills that will be allowed to pass are the ones that the Government are in favour of, but if the Government are in favour of them, they could just as easily introduce the legislation themselves. Why do they not just do away with the nonsense—that is how it is viewed at the moment—of private Members’ Bills?

Other speakers have said that it would not be right to allow the small number of Members who turn up on a Friday to decide the laws of the country, but I think that the current system for private Members’ Bills actively discourages Members from being here on a Friday because, as there are no time limits on debates, it is impossible to know which legislation will be reached and debated, let alone what will be voted on. Most MPs, including me, would rather spend an extra day in our constituencies than stay in Westminster on the off-chance that their Bill will reach a meaningful discussion or even a vote.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I made clear my position on the need for reform, but we have to be careful. If we are going to say that private Members’ Bills should have the same degree of scrutiny as all measures brought before the House, Members will have to commit to rather more time at Westminster than there has been an appetite demonstrated for in recent years.

[Melanie Onn]

I am particularly concerned about the time we have to discuss this. We have changed the system. In the previous Session, there was a change so that petitions that reach 100,000 signatures can be debated in the House of Commons. We can make meaningful changes when we really want to. Although many people will be pleased that debates can take place, what they really want to see is change. Our legislative process is long overdue an upgrade. Is it not time that we put an end to this cruel joke that we are playing on the public?

Hon. Members have suggested several different changes to the way that we debate and vote on private Members’ Bills, and I hope they will be heard fully. The suggestions are an improvement because the processes are based on the reality of the system as it operates today, rather than a notional way, as has been suggested by Conservative Members, that is just not based in fact or reality.

I await the Procedure Committee’s forthcoming report and recommendations because we are open to further suggestions. The hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) suggested that perhaps this debate is in some way premature. I would say entirely the opposite: this is a very timely debate. We do not want yet another report that does not get anywhere; we would like some commitment to change, which will hopefully change things for society for the better.

To challenge the point about private Members’ Bills always being about matters of conscience, I am not clear where there is a matter of conscience in higher education information or the fitness of homes for human habitation. Private Members’ Bills are not always about matters of conscience. I support the comments of the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford): some of them are about social reform matters and are important to many people.

The most important thing is that the Procedure Committee and the Government should recognise that the current system does not work and needs to change. The Procedure Committee’s second report said that it would not be putting its proposals to the House and that, instead:

“This is an idea whose time has not yet come.”

Following the passion Members have shown today, I entirely disagree with that statement. This is entirely the idea’s time, and I hope that the Deputy Leader of the House will commit today to allowing the whole House at least to debate and vote on the Committee’s proposals once they have been published.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vaizey]

I am extremely pleased to have a free, gratis and for nothing suggestion from the second candidate for the chairmanship of the Public Accounts Committee who has participated in questions this morning. I suspect that whoever wins that chairmanship will want to investigate broadband and will take note that the super-connected cities vouchers scheme has now taken off like a rocket, with 24,000 businesses now benefiting. In fact, we are going to spend the money by the end of this year.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

While I rejoice for the people of Cheltenham—the town in which I was educated—who may be reaching 96% coverage by 2017, I have to worry about the people of my constituency and other parts of rural Essex where, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Damian Green) has just said, there are now serious gaps. The way business is being done in this country now means that people are spending part of the time at home. That is not to mention the farming community; the Government insist on providing so much information through high-speed broadband that it is essential that we accelerate the programme.

[Mr Vaizey]

I hear what my right hon. Friend says. The digital implementation committee will be looking at ways in which we can accelerate an extremely successful programme.

House of Commons Commission Bill

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

I apologise to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and to the House for my late arrival. The business of the House has obviously moved on faster than I anticipated. I am sure if I was sitting once more where you are now sitting I would have frowned very much upon someone trying to speak at this point, but as proceedings are moving along swiftly, I hope I might be indulged.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

For the avoidance of doubt, of course the right hon. Gentleman, with his long experience and so much to contribute, is hereby indulged.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

You are very kind, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I join in complimenting the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, and the shadow Deputy Leader of the House on co-operating with colleagues to ensure, first, that there was a good report, and then that it was brought forward so swiftly. In the last four and a half years, I have identified weaknesses and inconsistencies in the management of the business side of the House, which the strengthened Commission will help to overcome. I have detected great weaknesses in the connection between the decisions made by the Commission and the political parties in the House, and also weakness in communication between Members of the House as a whole. The way that the Committee has recommended that the Commission be composed in the future addresses all those weaknesses, and enables us to have a more coherent system of management, which I hope will be more easily explained to a very diverse audience in the House, not just among Members but among the other important people who have passes in the House and who serve us in various ways. We may look forward with some confidence to the implementation of the plan that has been presented to the House, and I have every confidence in it.

House of Commons Governance

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

I join all those who have contributed to the debate in thanking members of the Committee, particularly its Chair, and congratulating them on the quality of their work. I am astonished that the report was completed in the time that was taken without sacrificing quality and thoroughness. I had suspected, with my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), that extensions might be needed, as has sometimes proved to be the case in the past, so I contribute to the unanimity of praise.

I welcome the direction of travel outlined by the Committee. I shall comment on one or two details in a moment. The Committee has provided an elegant solution to the immediate problem which triggered its being set up. I have come to the conclusion slowly and perhaps reluctantly over the years that it was time that we separated the responsibilities of the Clerk from those of the chief executive. We must put Parliament first. That is the core reason for our existence, but running this place has become an enormous business. We need someone of great skill and experience to take charge of the business side of the House of Commons.

The former Clerk, Sir Robert Rogers, still believes that the two posts could be combined, and I agree with him that whoever takes the job of the director general must very quickly understand the House of Commons. I have found over the past few years that there has been suspicion and sometimes anger among colleagues about what is happening around them. They sometimes feel that the position of Member of Parliament has been downgraded, that they do not have a chance to make their voice heard on particular matters, and that decisions are taken and they have to put up with them. That has not been the happiest of circumstances.

I warmly welcome the report because it has gone further than the initial task by offering a joined-up system of governance, which may help to overcome the difficulty that I have just described. On the basis of my experience over the past four and a half years, I believe we need a joined-up system among the professionals who serve us, and a joined-up system among the management side and Members and everyone else with an interest in this place.

I think of the Cromwell Green entrance, which is a saga in itself. It was designed with a capacity that quickly proved inadequate, and had more money spent on it to increase that capacity. It is approached by a ramp which is uncovered. The lack of capacity has meant that visitors to this place, a substantial proportion of whom are the electorate who put us here, have been kept waiting for inordinate lengths of time in all weathers. We are told, whether by Westminster city council or by English Heritage, that as things stand we may not cover that ramp—yet this is a sovereign Parliament. It is a ludicrous situation. Why was that not thought of from the very beginning and the construction done in such a way that there could have been a cover that would not offend English Heritage or others?

I think of the roof of Portcullis House, which is a much more recent construction. We were advised that those who planned it were looking to have a building that would last for 200 years. Unfortunately, they did not secure a guarantee that the glass roof would last anything like that length of time in service. That has, I am afraid, given rise to problems that should have been anticipated, with guarantees obtained. It is beautiful, but unfortunately it has shown some weaknesses.

The joining up between our managers and Members is important, without our getting into ridiculous situations of micro-management. If we have good professional people, at some point or other we have to respect their judgment and hope that the framework is sufficiently robust that we have a strong guarantee that that judgment is sound.

This is about more than ensuring that the arrangements—the mechanics—allow us to achieve sensible decision making. We have to accept that this is an extraordinarily difficult place to govern because there are so many different interests on the Estate to begin with. Members, understandably, see themselves as foremost. The hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) referred to the status that having been elected to this place as a representative of the people gives a person as something that surely has to carry some weight within the order of things in this building. But of course we respect the fact that the needs of our own personal staff helping us to do our work are different from those of the Members they serve. There is the huge parliamentary staff, at all the different levels, on whom we depend. Conflicting arrangements have to be thought about. Members cannot necessarily always say that everything must be called to their tune.

We also have to take account of the electorate. It is our policy to welcome the electorate here. Unlike in days of old when the Member of Parliament made an annual visit to his constituency to be fully briefed on what was going on before coming rapidly back to London, we are now welcoming tens of thousands—hundreds of thousands—of our electorate to Westminster. Unfortunately, that creates certain difficulties of access that do not appear to have been completely successfully thought through.

Beyond that, there are the general visitors. Apart from being an iconic palace and a world heritage site, we have the distinction of claiming to be one of the leading visitor attractions in London. People want to come here, and we should be flattered by that fact. Indeed, we should be flattered by the fact that people want to come to London. We therefore have to think how, without in any sense lessening the dignity of the place, we can facilitate the interests of the people who want to come and see what they regard as the mother of Parliaments at the very heart of representative democracy.

Mention has been made of the other place. I absolutely agree with the line of argument in the Committee’s report that we have to seek further co-operative measures and perhaps unify more of the services. I have enjoyed a very cordial and constructive relationship with my opposite number, latterly the noble Lord Sewel. There are undoubtedly certain things that one can achieve for general convenience, although not everybody knows what they are. For example, Members of the House of Commons do not seem to realise that they are able to book a table in the Barry Room in the House of Lords if they are looking for an alternative type of meal to that which they might find in the Commons side of the building. We need to go further than that, and very realistic questions have been asked.

Bearing in mind all the different demands on the palace, we always have to think of security. It has been ramped up at various times in the past few years, which can create considerable difficulties in satisfying the free movement and protection of Members and those who work here, while at the same time allowing us to give freedom of access to our constituents and visitors in general. Some very difficult management decisions have to be taken, and I suspect that, if we are going to square the circle, it is inevitable that more expenditure will be involved.

I have the odd quibble. There has been absolutely no collusion between me and my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), but I agree with the two particular points he made and I am slightly surprised that he pinched the analogy that I was going to use. More thought might have been given to the determination of roles for the other two proposed Commons commissioners. I disagree with my right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire (Sir George Young), because I think that a clear distinction can be drawn between the role of the portfolio holder for administration and that of the portfolio holder for finance: finance is about determining budgets, while administration tries, within those approved budget heads, to work out the details of how to go about meeting the requirements that have been set.

Remuneration is also an issue. If two Commons commissioners are going to receive a stipend and two are not, that is a slightly inelegant situation. Many Members know of my interest in cricket, and it occurs to me that if two commissioners are going to receive a payment and two are not, that invokes the distinction between gentlemen and players that existed in the world of cricket until 1962.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross drew an analogy with the Panel of Chairs. I had a great deal to do with the introduction of remuneration for Members who joined the panel. They are required to be available at any time to chair a Committee. It might last five minutes or two and a half hours, but they have a duty to be there so that the functions of the House can be completed, and those who take on the chairmanship of more complex Public Bill Committees are committed for weeks to that particular task. They receive remuneration, so the proposal under discussion seems odd. I know it is possible to say, “Other anomalies would be created if you did that,” and I know that we would expose ourselves to the argument that we are just trying to find ways to spend money, but the question should be asked in order to make sure that we get this right.

[Valerie Vaz]

Perhaps I should offer a clarification. All four will be equal members of the Commission. Two of the roles have been allocated specific tasks and the other two will also be given tasks, one of which could be restoration and renewal and the other human resources. All four are of equal status and they will all get remuneration and have tasks allocated to them. They were going to be allocated those tasks by the Commission, but now, according to the motion, two of them will be elected separately. Nevertheless, all four have equal status.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I do not dispute the fact that they have equal status; it is just that it is possible that they are not going to get equal remuneration. The portfolios could end up being different from those the hon. Lady has just instanced; my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, for example, made some suggestions. All I said was that the issue might be given further thought. I certainly do not disagree with the general set-up.

Finally, we must recognise that a huge gap has to be bridged. There is a lack of understanding among many different groups of people about what can be done and what is available in the House. It sometimes takes years for a Member to realise what things can be done and how to do them. Decisions are not communicated very effectively, and we have not found the best ways of communicating them.

If our communications within the House are poor, those outside it are lamentable because we are not exactly assisted by the press. They are willing to put out stories that are good to read, but do not necessarily bear any resemblance to accuracy. I find it extremely irritating that what they give as facts are simply untrue, yet are repeated and repeated in a way that denigrates this place.

I am proud that we give our work force the opportunity to have meals and refreshments that are to some extent subsidised, because that practice is commonplace in many other institutions, both private and public. To be sneered at because there is a cost to the public purse is to diminish Parliament and all those who work here with great dedication.

[Mr Winnick]

To the extent that we caused the expenses scandal, we inflicted a collective punishment on ourselves. Can the right hon. Gentleman point to a period when this place was not the subject of derision in the media? We all know the sketches written by Charles Dickens and by others before him. As the media would argue, it is part of their job to have a go at us.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. That matter goes a little wide of the Committee’s report, and I am conscious that other Members want to speak, so tempting though Mr Winnick’s proposition is, Sir Alan, I hope that you will return to your speech and not respond to it.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

Madam Deputy Speaker, that shows I was too generous in giving way to the hon. Gentleman. I could have dismissed his comment in a sentence, but in view of what you have said, I will not even do that.

What I am trying to get at is that if we can establish a system of decision making and management in this place, we can have greater confidence in the decisions that are taken and be more robust in describing them to the outside world. We should be proud of this place, and if we think that we are doing the right things because we have a sound system for achieving the right conclusions, we should be able to say so and be respected for doing so. Indeed, we should promote the good things that happen in this place. Most of the matters on which the greatest amount of money is spent are in fact for the benefit of the general public, the electorate who put us here and those who wish to come here to support us.

I wholeheartedly commend the report, and again thank the Committee members for it.

Finances of the House of Commons

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

I shall concentrate on the savings programme, and on section 3 of the report.

The biggest challenge in 2010, when the members of the present Administration Committee were appointed, was the target that the Committee had been set to cut the deficit in catering and retail from £5.9 million to £3 million by the end of the current Parliament. If my figure varies from that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), it is because it relates to both catering and retail. As my right hon. Friend said, we hope to achieve a lower figure than the £3 million target, which I think is reasonably to the credit of everyone who has been involved in trying to achieve it.

The Committee’s approach has been not just to rely on price increases, but to consider prudent cost-cutting and, more importantly, to increase demand. We resisted a move to separate retail from catering so that we could maintain like-for-like comparison, but we did agree on a separation of management, which has had a very beneficial effect. I shall say more about that later.

[Thomas Docherty]

Because I have the pleasure of serving under the right hon. Gentleman’s chairmanship, I understand what he means when he talks about the catering and retail subsidy. For the benefit of those who do not have that pleasure, will he confirm that our retail outlets have never been subsidised?

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

Yes, absolutely. It was purely for budgeting purposes that the two were linked.

We faced a number of obstacles. For instance, there had been a 10% across-the-board hike in prices before our Committee and, indeed, the Finance and Services Committee, had taken office, and that had an initially bad effect on footfall.

[Sir Greg Knight]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that some of the problems arose from the fact that decisions were made by the House of Commons Commission when it was under full complement? Does he hope, as I certainly do, that in the next Parliament the Commission will not make any potentially difficult or controversial decisions until it has a full complement of members and Back Benchers on both sides of the House are represented on it?

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I certainly agree that that would be desirable. We have tried to anticipate circumstances in which the last price review will outlive the current Parliament, so that there will be some cover while the time is taken to reconstitute Committees which may be subject to the deliberations of the Governance Committee and which may consequently take a different form.

The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority introduced a subsistence allowance of £15, which I think has had a malign effect on the propensity of Members to use the facilities of the House. Some told their electorates beforehand that they would not claim it, while others simply do not feel comfortable about claiming it while they are away from home on parliamentary business. That has, to an extent, reduced the uptake of facilities, especially in the Members’ Dining Room. I found IPSA’s rule that the allowance would be available only if the House’s business continued beyond 7.30 pm very difficult to understand, but IPSA has stuck to it firmly, despite all my efforts to persuade it otherwise. It seems to me that whether the House sits until 7.29 or 7.31, the fact remains that many Members who are distant from their homes will have to eat away from home. Many Members now do not eat on the estate, which has had several bad effects.

I cannot be certain whether that led to the vote to change the House’s Tuesday sitting hours, although a significant number of Members voted for the change. I have counted them out, as it were. There is a pattern which suggests that if they were no longer deemed by IPSA to qualify for help from the taxpayer for the maintenance of another dwelling close to Westminster, they would prefer to leave earlier rather than returning to, in some instances, fairly distant parts of London late at night. That has led to a disappearance of Members and a weakening of the collegiate nature of the House which I remember from the past.

The Administration Committee has tried to come up with an offer featuring the widest possible variety and appeal in order to sustain demand. However, if Members, staff and other passholders are not using our facilities for whatever reason, the Committee’s policy is to let others do so, on the strict understanding that that does not interfere with the prime purpose of the business of the House. We have encouraged third-party commercial hire; we have introduced room-hire fees, not uncontroversially; and tomorrow and the next day, members of the public will be allowed to book lunch in the Members’ Dining Room for the first time. Once that had been advertised, it was a sell-out. We shall await the subsequent report, and then consider whether the same might be done during parliamentary recesses.

The figures that my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross and I have given are not recognised by the media. We are constantly told that the catering and retail deficit is what it was at the start of the current Parliament, rather than what it has become since we have been introducing our new policies. Sometimes it has been rounded up to more than £6 million, and on one occasion the deficit carried by the House of Lords was included in our figures. A continual wish to denigrate does not help us to give credit to all the people who have worked so hard to be responsible, for the reasons that my right hon. Friend explained.

The media suggest that this is all about 650 Members of Parliament advantaging themselves. However, there are 13,000 passholders on the estate, many of whom earn much less than Members of Parliament, and the catering service is aimed at everyone who has legitimate cause to be here. As I have said, the deficit has been halved. I hope that that will be recognised, and that we will make continuous efforts to achieve further savings and improvements. I pay tribute to the director of catering services, Richard Tapner-Evans, and to the whole of his team for the way in which they have responded to change while maintaining, in my view, very high quality and the reputation of the House’s catering.

On the retail side, I think that we have seen nothing short of a revolution. When I was first elected to this House, the only branded products that were available were whisky and cigarettes. For many of us, to give a bottle of whisky on every occasion when we were asked to contribute a prize was too expensive, and even in those days we did not really think of giving cigarettes. Now we have a fine and expanding range of quality gifts and souvenirs. Across the House revenue is up 11% in the July-September quarter compared with the equivalent period last year. The new Jubilee shop opened on schedule in July. The whole area around it has been refurbished, and sales are strong. The only niggle I have is that signage to the facility should be sufficiently prominent, and we have engaged in a lively debate with English Heritage about the nature of the signage we can have to attract the eye, and I hope we are winning on that one.

The Houses of Parliament shop on the corner of Bridge street now trades on Saturdays. It is unbelievable that it did not trade on Saturdays before. It now has more engaging window displays. Clearly that outlet is directed more to tourists and general visitors to London, and, frankly, how anyone ever thought tourists were coming to London specifically to hunt down a biography of Stanley Baldwin or Ramsay MacDonald is beyond me. The gifts and souvenirs that are in there now have made all the difference in the world to the trade that is done there. In August of this year alone sales were around 40% higher than in August last year.

The Members’ shop on the Terrace has seen an increase in the value of transactions as more product lines are introduced, some of which are exclusive to that shop. The summer fair in July in Westminster Hall built on the success of last year’s Christmas fair, and the Christmas fair itself will be repeated on 2 December upcoming, with 60 new product lines available.

In the matter of encaustic tiles, I owe the House an apology—[Interruption]—and not least my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Sir Greg Knight). I was asked by him about encaustic tiles and the possibility of selling the ones that have been retrieved, and I am afraid I gave a very inaccurate answer on that occasion. I am glad to say that that has been triumphantly overcome, however, in that the tiles that have come out whole and satisfactorily have been marketed. They are in a splendid box with a certificate of authenticity signed by me and my opposite number in the other place, Lord Sewel. We have already sold about 100 of them, with, I hope, more to go.

Finally on the retail side, I would like to compliment Diana Christou, who was appointed as director of retail. She has brought great experience and imagination to her work and she and her whole team are to be complimented on what has been achieved.

Our other experimental activity is the introduction of filming within the Palace. This is seen by many as a remarkable location and we tested the water with the film “Suffragette”, which, of course, did have a distinct connection with this place. On the basis of that experience, we are continuing to consider other filming proposals on a case-by-case basis, but we do see great possibilities.

On tours and visitors and bringing more people into the Palace, which has an impact on the bottom line, I can tell the House that since 1 April we have welcomed 127,000 paying visitors to the Houses of Parliament, 84,000 of them over the summer recess. The House was awarded the accolade of best guided tour at the group leisure awards 2014 and a certificate of excellence from TripAdvisor.

In the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions annual benchmarking exercise the House came fourth out of 80 attractions for overall level of enjoyment. Also rated as excellent were staff helpfulness and friendliness and the guided tour and audio guide.

Commercial tours have expanded in range and availability. An extra hour has been added to the length of the commercial tour day. Audio guided tours have been introduced, including a family tour. The art and architecture tours continue to be popular and will be expanded in 2015. The tactile tours for blind and visually impaired visitors are also popular and are offered once a month.

In the light of the popularity of guided and audio tours of the rest of the Palace, it may be worth visiting sooner rather than later the issue of charging for tours of the Elizabeth Tower and Big Ben. That issue was highlighted in the House a couple of years ago, and recently 254 e-mail requests were received within the first five minutes of opening for bookings for visits to the Elizabeth Tower, meaning that places were filled within the first two minutes. Expectation from the public has shot up, and it is an expectation we are now having the greatest difficulty in meeting.

Work also continues to establish a logical visitor route, or to make the one we have comprehensible. That is coded language for saying we do the thing the wrong way round. No other tour brings the visitor in at the exit, walks them through to the start and then walks them back again. This is adding to the congestion of the Palace, which was never designed for that number of visitors. The situation at the pinch-points becomes exaggerated, of course, with those numbers going through. This is totally inefficient and unreasonable, and we must consider how we can provide the best possible experience for visitors.

I am grateful to the House for listening to this very concentrated description of what the Administration Committee has been trying to do in its contribution to the overall savings programme. Our overall rationale has been that the Palace of Westminster is a working building—the heart of our democracy—but that it also happens to be an iconic architectural masterpiece. Referring back to something my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross said, with the restoration and renewal project to be faced up to in the next Parliament, it is crucial that we save this building. We will be criticised very strongly if we fail to ensure that this symbol of our Parliament and our democracy is maintained to the highest level, to see through another 100 or 150 years.

I have the honour of chairing the Administration Committee, and I want to thank in passing all those who help us most closely in our work. We are a working building and also a visitor attraction and we consider them to be complementary roles. We have been determined in all we have sought to do to preserve the essential purpose of this place, while promoting access to the public, who take great pride in this building and what it means. I have seen the emotion of many people who have come here for the first time in their lives, sometimes in their elderly years, and it is clearly a great experience for them. I do not regard it as in any way cheapening this Palace for it to be more welcoming to visitors, and I know Mr Speaker is anxious that we should make sure that that welcome is warm, while, of course, guarding our security. These are difficult issues to reconcile at times, but the Committee has the interests of this Parliament and this Palace at the very forefront of its considerations, while at the same time trying to ensure that we are responsible in governing its finances and the facilities it contains.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

May I apologise to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, to the House and to the Chair of the Finance and Services Committee, the right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), for not being here for the start of his speech? I was otherwise detained. I must also apologise as I will have to leave just before 4 o’clock to chair a Select Committee. As a member of the Finance and Services Committee, however, I want to say a few words to the House on this annual occasion when we explain what we have been doing with the House’s finances during the previous Session, and present the financial plan for the years ahead and the estimates for next year.

I join other Members in thanking the Chair of the Committee for his able and outstanding leadership over not only the last Session but the whole Parliament, as he has brought us together to make some often difficult decisions. As has rightly been said, the fact that there are so few Members here today with complaints to make—and certainly none who wants to suggest amendments—demonstrates that we have just about got the decisions right. The remit we were given at the beginning of the Parliament was challenging, in that we had to make 17% cuts in real terms over the course of this Parliament. Our first criterion was that we had to make those cuts without affecting the ability of Members to do their job, and I think that we have achieved our aim. I have not heard Members saying that their job is now more difficult to do because of the cuts. I think we have managed this programme in a proper way.

These expenditure reductions are larger than those being attempted in virtually any other central Government Department during the same period, although perhaps not so large as those that some local councils are having to deal with. In making the reductions, we have also tried to ensure that this building is no less welcoming to visitors, and in particular to our constituents when they come to see how Parliament operates. I think we have achieved that as well. Having listened to the speech from the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst), I think we should give credit to the Administration Committee for its work on making this place even more welcoming to visitors, who now have more opportunities to buy when they come here and who also have a greater variety of things to do. That is certainly commendable.

We are now working on the launch of the new education centre, which is welcome. It is important that visitors can come in here to see how Parliament operates and to look at this magnificent building even when we are not sitting, but it is even more important when those visitors are children who are coming here to get an educational experience and to see how Parliament operates and learn about the workings of our democracy. That is something that we have achieved despite the expenditure reductions.

Some of us would say that the replacement of mountains of paper by our iPads has resulted in an improvement in our working conditions. We have achieved a lot of the reductions that we were aiming for through major cuts in our printing budget. Not every hon. Member shares the view that iPads represent an improvement, but for many they have certainly introduced a more efficient way of working.

I also want to give credit to the Clerk who has just retired, and to the management team, for their efforts in advising the Finance and Services Committee by giving us all the options, alternatives and information to help us to make the right decisions and recommendations to the Commission. Our thanks should extend beyond the Officers of the House who give us advice directly. I am thinking of the work of the catering staff, particularly over the past few years. They have made major alterations to their working arrangements—to accommodate the changes in sitting hours, among other things—while maintaining their professionalism and continuing to provide the excellent service that we have come to expect from them. I should put on record that we in the parliamentary football club will shortly be playing our annual game against the parliamentary chefs. This is one of the ways in which Parliament comes together. It shows that we have a genuine working relationship and that we can enjoy such activities together.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will ensure that his team does not disable our chefs.

[Mr Betts]

I shall have a special word with our referee, Dermot Gallagher, to ensure that all our activities are conducted properly, and I shall pass on the right hon. Gentleman’s concerns. Perhaps he would like to come and increase the crowd numbers on that occasion? He would certainly be most welcome; his arrival would probably double the number standing on the touchline.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) has mentioned our security staff. They have experienced a lot of concerns in recent years, not least the uncertainty over their future employment. I am talking not about the police but about the other security staff here. They were unsure whether they were going to be outsourced, whether they were going to stay with the Met or whether they were going to be brought in house. They do an excellent job for us. I understand that discussions are now taking place and that there is a possibility that they might well be brought in house. That is certainly what they want; they make no secret of that. It would give them the certainty and security to enable them to carry on giving us that excellent service. My thanks are widened to include all the staff who work for us. They enable us to act as a Parliament in an efficient and effective way, as well as opening up the building to visitors.

We have done reasonably well during this Parliament, but there will be major challenges in the next one. We have decided on a budget that simply keeps pace with inflation, but we are looking for continuous improvement. The capital challenges on the northern estate and the restoration and renewal project are absolutely massive, and they will be a major focal point for the next Parliament.

It is right that we should consider how we can improve not only our day-to-day working but our scrutiny of the Executive, which is an important role for Parliament. I therefore welcome the budget that has been made available for Select Committees when they can show that extra expenditure in a particular area would enable them to do a better job—whether by commissioning extra research or whatever—of holding the Executive to account. That is another small improvement that we are embarking on in the next Parliament, and I welcome it.

I am delighted to associate myself with the motion on the Order Paper, and I am sure that it will go through unanimously. That in itself is a tribute to the work of the Chair, the right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, and I thank him and his Committee for the advice they have given to the Commission over the course of this Parliament.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom Brake)]

This debate has been slightly more entertaining that I had expected. I thought that, like a financial report, it was going to be quite dry, but we have had some entertaining illustrations of the activities that the different Committees are undertaking to realise savings.

I welcome the opportunity to participate in what has now become an annual debate on the House of Commons’ financial plan and draft estimates. In doing so, I should first mention my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso). At the risk of making him blush under his beard, I join the tributes that have been paid to him and his Committee for the work that they do in scrutinising the financial management of the House and in advising the House of Commons Commission, which is ultimately responsible for running the House.

Like other Members, I wish to pay tribute to the staff of the House, who support the Committee, the Commission and the Members in the activities that they undertake. I also thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) for the role that he plays. He quite rightly pointed out that the finances of this place are not always as they seem, or at least as the press would like to present them. He reflected on the fact that there was a time when the gift shop here was little more than a duty free, selling only whiskey and cigarettes. As someone who has been running a Christmas card competition for reception, year 1, year 2 and year 3 students for the past 17 years, I am pleased that there are now more gifts on offer, as whiskey and cigarettes are clearly not appropriate prizes.

My right hon. Friend also referred to the availability of tiles in the gift shop. I am currently decorating my bathroom at home, so I wish that I had known that earlier—although at £150 a shot, I suspect that we would have had to stick to IKEA as we had originally intended. He quite rightly pointed out—many Members will have seen this—that the House is being used for the first time for the filming of “Suffragette”. He also referred to the fact that the House is a highly rated tourist attraction. I regret to say that he did not mention that our debates in this place are part of that attraction. Perhaps this debate is one that people who have been to visit today will remember for years to come.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I hope that my right hon. Friend is not egging us on to think of charging people for going into the Public Gallery.

[Tom Brake]

I will leave that to my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross to address. Perhaps he will have had some thoughts on that.

Let me finish my comments on the contribution from my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden. I certainly agree that our investment in this place needs not only to reflect its heritage status but to ensure that the Palace of Westminster is both accessible and visitor friendly in a way that it is not at the moment.

I wish to comment briefly on the comments made by the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty). I congratulate him on his triple-hatted role. I am familiar with the concept of wearing more than one hat. He highlighted the savings we have made from ending the production of leather-bound books of Hansard. That was an appropriate thing to do, especially as it was at the taxpayers’ expense.

On the reconstruction and renovation works that will be undertaken fairly soon, the hon. Gentleman is right that planning them appropriately is essential. I do not like to think of myself as a professional politician, although I am not sure at what point one becomes one and leaves behind one’s previous career. Before being elected to this place, I was a project manager in the IT industry. One thing that must be done before embarking on a project is to work out what one wants to achieve and get from it. Members asked whether our plans for the House included a TV studio. Clearly, we need to establish that well in advance of any renovation work, rather than considering it as an afterthought, as the costs would start to ramp up significantly.

The hon. Gentleman also referred to the importance of diversity in staff, with which I entirely agree. He said that the House of Commons and the House of Lords should be actively considering bicameral services. It would be strange if we as a Government and Opposition called on local authorities to integrate their services to cut down costs if it were not something that we were prepared to consider in this place. I join him in praising the education centre.

The hon. Gentleman referred to the importance of senior managers getting the appropriate training, which I support. He concluded by referring to the e-petition system. I concur with his view that that is something that should not come at substantial extra cost. There may be a slight additional cost, as that inevitably happens in a transition period, but, fundamentally, we already have in place the technology and that should be the basis of the system. Any additional costs should be very limited. If, as part of the system, a petitions Committee is set up, it should not be an additional Committee but an alternative to one of the existing Committees in the House. I will not speculate on which, but that may be an appropriate way of dealing with any additional costs that might derive from having a petitions Committee.

It is right to recall the achievements of the House management in successfully delivering the savings programme, which saw a reduction in the administration estimate of 17% from £231 million in 2010-11 to £210 million in 2014-15. That reduction is in line with those that have been made right across Whitehall. Although that reduction has inevitably led to some changes, we have not seen any significant diminution in the services and support provided to Members of the House.

I welcome the fact that, although the saving programme has now come to an end, there is no sense of the job being done and now we can get back to normal. That would not reflect the reality of the financial situation, the need for further deficit reduction and the financial discipline in the wider public sector. The Committee’s report outlines the establishment of a continuous improvement approach being promoted by the Cabinet Office to ensure that the House continues to achieve value for money in the services it provides. I also welcome the bicameral nature of that approach. The potential for achieving savings by the two Houses working together should be fully explored.

The Committee notes improvements in financial discipline and internal control. Further improvements in financial performance will require a sharpening of managerial leadership skills right across the House. That is an area on which attention is rightly being paid, and it is a factor that might play into the current review of the governance of the House. I would also like to apologise on behalf of the Leader of the House for his being unable to attend this debate, which is for the same reason that the shadow Leader of the House is not here.

The House will also want to note the potential, outlined in the report, for further savings or income generation. The ICT strategy has not delivered the anticipated savings in 2014-15, and the expansion of commercial activities has not progressed at the pace originally envisaged. Those matters are being taken forward.

The House will also want to note the increase in resources that the Committee has agreed in respect of the budget for Select Committees, following a bid by the Liaison Committee. The extra £854,000 per annum from 2015-16 will enable Committees to have more staff and to commission more research. I think that is a good example of the core functions of the House being enhanced in a climate of overall savings being pursued.

With regard to the medium-term financial plan, we should be conscious of the need identified by the plan for a further £3 million to be found in each financial year from 2016-17 to 2018-19 and that there are major refurbishments in Norman Shaw North to be carried out. Beyond that, there are still decisions to be taken on the restoration and renewal of the Palace of Westminster, which will involve substantial expenditure however it is carried out.

Finally, turning to the Members estimate, hon. Members will note that the forecast expenditure is set to come down slightly, from £41 million in 2015-16 to £40 million in 2018-19, after the substantial exercise of providing new IT equipment for all MPs after the next election. The successful provision of IT and other resources for new MPs will go a long way towards giving them confidence in the management and governance of the House.

I conclude by again congratulating my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross on his Committee’s work, as set out in its report, and on the constructive way in which it continues to support the work of the Commission and the other administrative Committees of the House.

Retirement of the Clerk of the House

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

I am grateful to have the opportunity to make a short appreciation of Sir Robert’s service to the House, although I am conscious that it may lack the erudition and eloquence that we have heard so far. However, compared with the speech of the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), Hansard may have less trouble with it.

When one enters the House, the clerkship is held in great awe. I remember the fear, almost, of going into the Table Office to put down a question, seeing one’s English mangled into proper form and leaving somewhat chastised. It is part of the tribute to Sir Robert over the years that it is a far less daunting experience now to go to the Table Office and generally to deal with Clerks who serve us.

It is a bit of a shock to me to realise that I entered the service of the House before Sir Robert, and I have had the opportunity to see him in many different guises. I suppose our relationship was closest first of all when he was Clerk of the European Legislation Committee. That is when I became aware of his scholarship, his organisational skills and his great good humour, particularly when having to shepherd a group of lively and not all like-minded colleagues to Brussels for the annual interrogation of UKRep. Then, perhaps his greater difficulty was to settle where we might all have dinner together.

On becoming the Chairman of Ways and Means, I developed regular contact with Sir Robert as he then occupied a series of posts which related to matters on which I had to adjudicate. That is when I became fully appreciative of the clarity and impartiality of the advice which our Clerks provide and of which Sir Robert was an outstanding exemplar. As Clerk Assistant it was part of his responsibility to liaise closely with the Chairman of Ways and Means. Within the bounds of propriety, I think I can say that that is when we became very good friends. Perhaps our shared love of cricket helped. I remember walking along the corridor, and from his door, which was ever open, I was beckoned. He proceeded to show me his smartphone which had all the details and scoreboard of every cricket match being played. My Nokia was dispatched very soon afterwards.

Mr Speaker, you will recognise as well as any that the performance in the Chair of those who are privileged to occupy it is dependent to a great extent on the instant availability of advice, particularly at tricky moments. These can occur at the time of handover from one occupant of the Chair to another. Just as I thought I might have developed some reputation for capability in that role, it took a severe knock when I took over from Sir Michael Lord at a moment when we were dealing with Lords amendments. The House will not necessarily appreciate that the documentation for that is particularly complicated, including paper A and paper B. It just so happened that we were proceeding to a question not on one matter, but on a whole series of matters, which I was unable to grasp as readily as I should have done. So I was conducted through that by Sir Robert sotto voce, which possibly helped to save my reputation on that occasion.

Since 2010 I have been Chairman of the Administration Committee, which has brought me closer to management and to understanding the responsibilities that Sir Robert has held so effectively as our chief executive. I have begun to understand some of the barriers which are in the way of decision making. The joy of dealing with Sir Robert—apart from delving into his rich experience of “How Parliament Works”, to give an extra plug to one of his publications—was his can-do approach in surmounting those barriers, and a determination to see that we could cut through some of the difficulties for the benefit of Members and the wider public that we serve.

Finally, during this last period, I have had the honour to be Chair of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. Sir Robert is by no means the first Clerk of the House with a love of the Commonwealth and its parliamentary network, but Sir Robert again and again in my experience has demonstrated his support and understanding. There will be many other Commonwealth Parliaments, I believe—Parliaments, Clerks and parliamentarians across the Commonwealth—who will echo the sentiments being expressed in this House today. In the line of distinguished people who have served us as Clerk, I have no doubt whatsoever that Sir Robert will stand extremely tall.

Finances of the House of Commons

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Thursday 21st November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

In view of the prefatory remarks made by the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), I think I should assure the House that I was tucked up in bed well before the test match commentary began, in deference to the fact that I hoped to catch your eye today, Mr Speaker. I awoke immensely reassured by the fact that, according to the Australian press, a medium-fast bowler aged 27 years had achieved a considerable breakthrough.

I suppose it is inevitable that I should be speaking from the angle of the Administration Committee, which I have the honour to chair, and dealing—if I may be forgiven for saying so—with bread and butter issues. The Committee has accepted with varying degrees of enthusiasm or concern the need for budget constraints, and we have tried to exercise our role in advising the Commission as to how we could fit in with those requirements.

I would like to add to what my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) said about the staff of the House. I have every bit as much cause as he and many of us to recognise what they do for us and the way they serve us. It is also worth remembering that apart from being deliverers of services, they are also consumers of some of those services.

The basic approach I share entirely with my hon. Friend—to recognise that this House is a working building and also an iconic visitor attraction. It is clear that the second consideration should in no way impinge on the first, but it is equally clear that the working pattern of Members of this House has altered dramatically. The amount of time spent in the building has changed, the division of time between constituency and Westminster has changed, and this has had an impact on the availability of facilities.

I emphasise that there is nothing unusual about a subsidy for catering in the House as a place of work. It is unfortunate that too often we are reported in the papers as apparently being 650 people who are running this place to our own advantage in terms of the catering. There are more than 13,000 pass holders who have access to this estate and who need to avail themselves of its facilities for normal refreshment in the course of a working day. Those 13,000 pass holders, be it noted, include representatives of the media, who enjoy the supposed advantage which sometimes they denigrate for others.

We have, nevertheless, a duty to address the scale of the catering subsidy. It was of the order of £6 million in 2010-11 and the aim is to have it down to £3.8 million by 2014-15. It seems sensible to the Committee that we have a twin approach—cutting costs where that could be done in an obvious way, and increasing income. It is right that efficiencies could be achieved. These have been undertaken, and a new, intelligent approach to how we deliver our services on the catering side has, I believe, been achieved. But it is also necessary to increase sales. Surely we want to make sure that what is on offer in our catering outlets meets the needs of all the people who may wish to avail themselves of it. I can report that the footfall in the cafeterias is up 9% and the banqueting covers are up by 14%, so we are making progress in getting the facilities used.

Attention has been drawn in this debate to the room hire charges, which are another element of the changes that we have made. I should say that the charges that are proposed are benchmarked. There is a discount for charities and a further discount for Member functions. This is for a trial period and it is under the strict scrutiny of the Committee. We will feel our way on this. I give an undertaking to the House—words I never thought I would be in a position to offer—that we will look at this very carefully. I recognise that there are possible points of difficulty and so on. We will watch this and, if necessary, look at it again, but the principle is clear and has been enunciated by the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife.

[Andrew Miller]

I, too, woke up enjoying the news on the radio and I was very tempted to listen to it. Has the Committee given any thought to the events that are organised through outside bodies and that are designed to help Parliament, such as parliamentary links day, which you, Mr Speaker, open each year, and events run by the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, which are designed to help Members of Parliament? Why should they be disadvantaged under the room hire scheme?

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

We give constant thought to these things and will continue to do so to make sure that we have broadly categorised people correctly. I do not want to get into a mini-debate about some of the functions. I attend many of them and they do not always seem to me to be quite how they are painted, in terms of who patronises them and so on. Often the number of Members attending may not be quite as large as the event organisers were hoping, but we will look at the matter.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) raised the question of political dining. The change that was made was instigated by two hon. Members who are still Members of the House. It was thought improper that profit should be made by a political organisation, be it a party or a trade union, through having access to these facilities. For many people that has seemed unduly restrictive, but I have always taken the view that if we were to be more relaxed about that, it would have to be on an understanding among the parties in this House that no one was seeking to gain an advantage over another. It is odd, is it not, that those who perhaps take the closest day-to-day interest in political affairs are the ones for whom it is now slightly more difficult to come here in the way they used to.

The other matter to which we have given attention because we believe it is capable of great improvement is how to achieve greater revenue from retail sales. I will admit to being a retailer at heart. My dad kept a shop and I served behind the counter from an early age to earn my pocket money. I have always had a desire to see how I can sell things to people. There is a tremendous opportunity. The people who come here appreciate the fact that there are things they can buy as a souvenir, and we could be much more effective in that regard.

[Sir Greg Knight]

I regularly show visitors around this building but I was shocked recently, going into St Stephen’s Hall, to see that it looked rather like a building site, with workmen hacking up the floor, removing the old tiles—I presume to be destroyed—and replacing them with new tiles. On the subject of increasing sales, why are those old floor tiles not being marketed for sale?

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I think I can give my right hon. Friend a definitive answer. There are aspects of the tiles that would make them an unacceptable item for sale. Some of them are to be re-used. We are examining the possibility that reproductions of the original be considered for sale. They will not contain any noxious substances or sharp edges. It might be a very good sales item. I assure my right hon. Friend that I take his point.

[Mr Jenkin]

I have raised the matter in correspondence with Mr Speaker. An opportunity to market tiles on which Disraeli, Gladstone and Churchill walked has more appeal than selling a new tile. We buy bits of the Berlin wall, for goodness’ sake, which have sharp edges. I do not know what noxious substances there are in the tiles, but the precautionary approach seems to be taken to an unnecessary extreme in this case, with the result that we are not exploiting this resource for the House.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

The issue is the asbestos element, because we do not want to be seen to encourage people to buy something that is not the safest item to have. We are prepared to consider whether a replica would have any sales value or would be of interest to people, but not to do anything reckless. Equally, we wish to save money by reusing some of the tiles, if we can, so there is not necessarily a bounty to be had from them.

Sales in retail went up by 11% in the year to October 2013, and in the visitor shop by 18%. A new range is being developed, and new marketing and design skills are being brought to bear, with the potential to go much further in that direction.

We are doing everything we can to increase availability for Members’ tours. At times of the year when it is appropriate to have paying visitors—as opposed to people who come in at the behest of Members and, of course, do so for free—we received 161,000 visitors in 2012-13, a number that we aim to double by 2014-15, which could raise an extra £1.2 million.

Another suggestion made to the Administration Committee, which came as a great surprise to me, was the possibility that film makers would pay to use certain locations in the Palace that we were prepared to make available. That could yield a considerable income, and would be done when the House was not sitting. It has been done in the Treasury, for example, so if a Department can do it, there is no reason why this House of the legislature should not consider doing so.

Bringing greater numbers of people into the House raises the question of access. The Palace is an iconic visitor attraction, and if we recognise that people want to come here—whether they be visitors from overseas prepared to pay during the summer months and at other times when we make tours available, or people who have asked their Member of Parliament to host a visit—we should do everything possible to maximise their opportunity to do so.

We must also do so in a way that makes those visitors seem welcome, as I am not sure that we achieve that as much as we should. I am extremely concerned, as is the Committee, which did a report on this, about exactly how we get people expeditiously and comfortably into the building. Because of the understandable dictates of security, the access points become very congested, with people kept waiting for a very long time, which is bad in all circumstances. The queue for the Cromwell Green entrance is unprotected against the elements, and general inconvenience is caused to Members waiting for people to come in, and to those who need to get in urgently but are caught up in a crowd who have just come for a visit rather than to give evidence to a Select Committee or any specific purpose.

For our young visitors, I believe it is important to develop the education centre. Although I understand the views of right hon. and hon. Members about the capital and security cost elements, the fact is that we ought to recognise the importance, from the point of view of a parliamentary democracy, of doing everything possible to encourage young people to come here.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

I am glad that my right hon. Friend is addressing the point about the education centre. Has he ever had a complaint from any visiting school or constituent about the standard of the education service in the House?

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I am certainly not aware of any complaints. The education service does a very good job. The question is how we can increase the capacity and do a better job. At the moment, we are very constrained by such circumstances as where people are brought into the Palace.

It is absurd that people may have to queue for a long time before being brought in at the north door of Westminster Hall, and then have to be taken all the way through the building to commence the tour back through it. Handling our visitors in that way makes us unique as a visitor attraction. With a dedicated education centre, there is no doubt that we could enhance the experience of people when they arrive and take them through the building along the proper pathway originally established for tours, as well as to extend our reach to many more schools. I accept the need to expand the funding that we have made available to schools further from London to make it easier for them to come here.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman is making an important point. The change of hours on Tuesdays and Wednesdays makes it very difficult to get school parties down here so that they can experience the Chamber and the other place.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I entirely agree. I want to say in the hearing of the Leader of the House and the shadow Leader of the House that no matter what the Procedure Committee has said, I seriously believe that we ought to have an opportunity before 2015 to test the opinion of the House about Tuesday hours, because the change has really cut short the opportunities to bring people into the House. We now have to wait months for a slot for a party from our constituencies, which absolutely flies in the face of what we should be doing.

I am a strong supporter of getting on with the education centre. I think we can say to the public that we are not spending the money on ourselves to increase our comfort; it is for them, for the public. Surely no one will stand up and say that we ought to restrict opportunities for young people to come here and learn something about this important bastion of democracy.

I hope that the Administration Committee’s guidance about ways of increasing income and access does not threaten the prime role of Parliament, which we all understand. The public has a right to suppose that we operate efficiently and effectively, with the modern tools that are now needed in any environment of this kind, but equally, we should recognise that people have a deep love and respect for this institution.

On very many occasions I have escorted parties round—with people coming into the Chamber when they can, and standing where some of the famous names of the past and of the present have stood—and seen them get a genuine thrill. Elderly people have said, “I’ve never been here before in my life,” and the experience is a very emotional one for them. We should respect that and try to make such visits easier, without feeling any shame about the fact that people might want to buy a mug, a pencil or a box of chocolates before they leave the building.

By extending access and maximising opportunities for income generation responsibly and appropriately, we can all benefit from a House of Commons and a Parliament that are as open to as many people as possible, at minimum expense to the taxpayer. That seems to me the objective that we should hold in front of us, and not be distracted from.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Andrew Miller.

[Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. [Interruption.] Sorry, Mr Speaker. I was looking at the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst), who is a past Deputy Speaker.

The right hon. Gentleman’s eloquent speech contained a slight contradiction, which I want to bring gently to his attention, and which I invite him to discuss with his Committee. In response to my observation about the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, he said that sometimes not enough Members turn up—I totally agree with him on that—but education is a two-way process. People come here not only for us to learn about their skills, but for them to learn about what we do, as per the education unit. It is hugely important that we encourage not only young people, but other people —he mentioned older people who have not had the opportunity—to come here. People might not understand how their life or occupation fits into this place and it is hugely beneficial if they get exposure to it. There is a huge gap between Parliament and areas such as science and engineering, and it is vital that we strengthen our links with them. The Administration Committee is supporting access for young people—I totally agree with him about that—but restricting it for others on an arbitrary basis.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I certainly was not attempting to decry the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, of which the hon. Gentleman is a distinguished member. It is a matter of observation that at many functions, the host who is paying for the thing brings in a great many people who are associated with them, whether they be volunteers, employees or associates. They of course hope that they will meet some Members, but the dictates of the business of this House, which cannot be predicted, might mean that the number of Members who can attend is quite small. The host brings a lot of other people to Parliament and I am very happy that they should do that. The proposal will not necessarily have an impact on what goes on now.

[Andrew Miller]

When I bring a school party here, I am one MP meeting 30, 40 or 50 schoolchildren. When I host events, as I did the other day on the important issue of immigration policy and science, the number of Members of Parliament who are present is unfortunately sometimes very small. However, an awful lot of people left that room better informed and educated about the processes that are going on inside the Government and the Opposition.

Business of the House

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House, particularly for her tribute to my distinguished predecessors. Robin Cook was a notable Leader of the House for the reforms that he brought in. Indeed, I am sure, as time goes by, that the contribution of the current Patronage Secretary will be seen as such, not least because, as our discussions in business questions show, the Backbench Business Committee has improved dramatically Members’ access to the Floor of the House to debate current issues.

The hon. Lady raised a number of matters. On the principles of the Leveson report, she will know that only a few days ago the Conservative party published proposals for a royal charter to implement them. That is subject to cross-party discussions and I urge them to proceed and come to a successful conclusion. I share the view of my noble friend Lord McNally, who made it clear on Third Reading of the Defamation Bill that, while the so-called Puttnam amendment was amended further at that stage, the amendment is still unacceptable. On that basis, I hope that an agreement will be reached that will enable us to proceed with the Bill without that amendment and to deal with Leveson properly.

It is not unknown for us to debate the regulations for public procurement in the NHS. The hon. Lady will know that it is possible for Opposition business managers to seek access to such a debate through the usual channels, and I encourage her to do so. On the substance of the issue, however, she is not right. The Prime Minister was quite right yesterday and let me reiterate what he said. If we did not have these regulations, normal procurement law and competition rules would apply. The former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), knows perfectly well that the principal rules for co-operation and competition would have applied in the same way before the last election. If he and the hon. Lady look at the regulations properly, which of course I have, they will see that it is possible to proceed without a competition on a single tender basis. The regulations, for the first time, create a structure that allows for “any qualified provider”. That is exactly what was said during the passage of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 and what is stated in the Act. There is no change in policy. The regulations enable commissioners to go for whoever is best placed to improve the quality of the services, meet the needs of people who use the services and improve efficiency, including through an “any qualified provider” route rather than a competitive tendering route.

The hon. Lady asked about a debate on international women’s day. I have announced the business and it does not allow us to have such a debate on that day; the House is not sitting on 8 March and the business does not allow for such a debate on 7 March. However, there is an Opposition day on the following week and the Backbench Business Committee has always been receptive to Back-Bench Members who apply for such debates, as was demonstrated in the well-attended and well-structured debate that took place the week before last.

The hon. Lady asked about the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made it clear that before Second Reading—not before Committee stage, as was previously intended—the Government will publish the principal draft regulations associated with the Bill. She asked about the timing of the Committee stage. She knows perfectly well that it is our intention on Second Reading to table a carry-over motion so that we can consider carefully what is the appropriate timing for the Committee stage.

I thought that the most important sign-up to a political party this week was to the Conservative party on the part of Marta Andreasen, a UK Independence party MEP. That demonstrates that across this country people are recognising that the Prime Minister’s speech on the future of our relationship with the European Union was, as she said, a “game changer”.

I apologise that we have not been able to give the hon. Lady and her colleagues time for an Opposition day debate next week as we are making progress with legislation. When she does have that opportunity the week after next, there are many matters for her to choose from: the increase in employment last year, with the fastest rate of new employment growth in the private sector since the 1980s; the reduction of more than 80% in the number of people waiting for NHS operations for more than a year and the waits that patients have to experience in Wales under a Labour Government, which the shadow Secretary of State for Health might want to debate; and, in the Home Office context, the reduction in crime figures or the reduction in net migration to this country of a third since the last election, which was announced this morning. This is a coalition Government delivering on our promises.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

Given that one of the world’s worst-kept secrets is that Commonwealth day falls on 11 March and that Commonwealth Parliaments are being encouraged to mark that day with a debate on a Commonwealth theme, how can it be that this House is being given no opportunity to debate the Commonwealth, the proposed charter or connected matters?

[Mr Lansley]

I have discussed this matter with a number of colleagues and have encouraged them to approach the Backbench Business Committee. I am not aware of whether they have done so. Of course, I have announced the business for 11 March, so I do not think that we can accommodate such a debate on that day. However, a number of Parliaments are debating the Commonwealth at some time close to that day. I encourage my right hon. Friend and others to continue to approach the Backbench Business Committee on that matter.