Finances of the House of Commons

Thomas Docherty Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[John Thurso]

I understand that the Commission has reviewed the paper and that the initial decisions that needed to be taken to start that work have all been taken. As my hon. Friend knows, the decant space, which would have been one of the biggest blocks, has been acquired and is being fitted out and made available. My understanding is that work properly to scope the project is now under way. Clearly, in order to ensure the best value for the money spent, the work undertaken in scoping the project will reveal whether or not overall savings are available. At the moment, the budget is at its maximum because, quite properly, it has all the contingencies that could be put in. One hopes that proper scoping, including the point my hon. Friend raised, will lead to a tighter budget going forward and the work being completed on time. As he and I both know, however, public procurement is littered with projects for which aspirations were expressed that were not met. Hopefully, we have all learned lessons from that and will make sure that we deliver on time and on budget.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

For the benefit of those of us who are not entirely familiar with the Commons accounting procedures—I appreciate what the right hon. Gentleman said about the R and R costs; because it has not yet been agreed whether we will decant at all, those costs have not been included—could he say what, if any, costs in the preparatory period have been accounted for in the tables set out?

[John Thurso]

Obviously, the cost of the options appraisal that is currently going through is, in part, being paid for out of the current estimate and might well be paid for in part from a future estimate, but it is in the budget and properly accounted for. I believe that we are talking about a total of around £7 million. If I am wrong, I am sure I will get inspiration in due course and come back to it. I might even read my vast file and come up with the figure before the end of the debate.

It has been said that spending £7 million on working out what needs to be done is a great deal of money. All my experience of working in the private sector on the refurbishment of large buildings and all I have observed from big projects such as nuclear decommissioning is that the more professional money spent in advance in scoping a project, so that it is really understood, the more effective the actual spend. I suggest that every pound spent now on working out what the problems are is at least a pound spent going forward. If I am wrong, I will come back to the hon. Gentleman.

In closing, I would like to commend again the professionalism of the House service and all those who work for us, and the tremendous improvements that have taken place in management systems and how things have been done over the years that I have been involved in the Finance and Services Committee, the Audit Committee and other bodies. This is the last occasion during this Parliament on which we will discuss the finances of the House. In commending the motion to the House, and in addition to the tributes I have paid on behalf of the House as a whole, I would like to express my personal gratitude for the support and help that I have received from the team, many of whom are watching us today. It has been a pleasure and a privilege to see this process through. The fact that there are in attendance fewer hon. Members than those who put their names down to speak today does not indicate any disinterest in the process, but is perhaps a reflection of the fact that we now publicise the plan so well that they do not feel it necessary to be present to suggest amendments to what we have put before them.

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[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

I shall concentrate on the savings programme, and on section 3 of the report.

The biggest challenge in 2010, when the members of the present Administration Committee were appointed, was the target that the Committee had been set to cut the deficit in catering and retail from £5.9 million to £3 million by the end of the current Parliament. If my figure varies from that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), it is because it relates to both catering and retail. As my right hon. Friend said, we hope to achieve a lower figure than the £3 million target, which I think is reasonably to the credit of everyone who has been involved in trying to achieve it.

The Committee’s approach has been not just to rely on price increases, but to consider prudent cost-cutting and, more importantly, to increase demand. We resisted a move to separate retail from catering so that we could maintain like-for-like comparison, but we did agree on a separation of management, which has had a very beneficial effect. I shall say more about that later.

[Thomas Docherty]

Because I have the pleasure of serving under the right hon. Gentleman’s chairmanship, I understand what he means when he talks about the catering and retail subsidy. For the benefit of those who do not have that pleasure, will he confirm that our retail outlets have never been subsidised?

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

Yes, absolutely. It was purely for budgeting purposes that the two were linked.

We faced a number of obstacles. For instance, there had been a 10% across-the-board hike in prices before our Committee and, indeed, the Finance and Services Committee, had taken office, and that had an initially bad effect on footfall.

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[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to respond to this relatively brief debate on behalf of the Opposition. I should like to begin by paying tribute to the right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) for the way in which he chairs the Finance and Services Committee, as well as for his service in representing the smaller parties on the House of Commons Commission. That is not always the most glamorous of postings, and it is sometimes a thankless one, but it is critical none the less.

I should like to offer the House the apologies of the shadow Leader of the House, my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), for her absence from the debate. She and the Leader of the House are giving evidence this afternoon to the governance review. The irony that they are not here to take part in the debate on the finance relating to governance will not be lost on us.

We welcome the progress that is being made on the savings programme. The right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross has already highlighted a number of savings relating to printing. I must confess that I am double-hatting here today, in that I also have the pleasure of serving under the chairmanship of the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on the Administration Committee. One of the savings of which we are most proud—it was one that we proposed, and it was accepted—has been the ending of the printing of the leather-bound volumes of Hansard. We have saved the taxpayer more than £1 million a year—it is important to remember that we are talking about taxpayers’ money—by ending the slightly archaic ritual of printing 150 leather-bound volumes of Hansard every fortnight. They were probably just filling up attic space in hon. Members’ properties. Indeed, in some cases, they might even have been holding up the houses.

The right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross also referred to the catering subsidy, which has been reduced by 47% over the past year. There are 15,000 people working on this site across the two Houses, many of whom are in low-paid jobs, and it is right that we, as a good employer, should provide subsidised canteen facilities. Equally, we recognise that, in this financial climate, we have a responsibility to reduce those costs wherever possible. We therefore welcome the 47% reduction that has been achieved in the first six months of this year. I think that the hon. Gentleman referred to a figure of £2.7 million. My understanding was that the figure for the first six months was £1.2 million, which was £360,000 better than the target. Can he confirm—or perhaps get inspiration that will allow him to confirm—that he is confident we can achieve that £2.7 million target for the year?

The right hon. Gentleman also mentioned restoration and renewal, rightly saying that financial planning is crucial. I suppose I am wearing a third hat because, again like the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden, I am a member of the Members advisory group that is assisting in the preparation for restoration and renewal. We believe it is right that we learn from not only mistakes made by other Parliaments, but good practice. Our Parliament is not unique; this is not the only Victorian-era building that requires substantial overhaul, and Parliaments around the world are facing similar challenges. Our colleagues in Canada, Austria and Finland are going through this process, and others will. Therefore, as the right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross said, it is right that we get the planning right now, as we do not want to see a Holyrood debacle in future years. So we fully support the work being done in that area.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) touched on the security contract. Obviously, I am not going to talk about the specifics, for the reasons that have been outlined by Madam Deputy Speaker. I observe only that we are paying about £30 million a year to the Metropolitan police for that contract, whereas the French National Assembly does not pay a penny for the security support it receives. I hope that the Serjeant at Arms and the director of security will seek to ensure that the taxpayer is not picking up an excessive cost for whoever gets the contract in future years—I am sure that will be the case.

The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden talked about the catering budget, and I will not repeat what he said. May I just echo his remarks about the progress that has been made, on not only obtaining greater income, but reducing our costs? I understand that we have finally hit the critical point where our staff-to-sales ratio has fallen below 100%—I believe it is now 88%, which is a step in the right direction. Labour Members were disappointed in one way that the European Union (Referendum) Bill died, because in the previous Session the Smoking Room was very popular among Conservative MPs on Thursday evenings before the debates on that Bill. I believe I am right in saying that we are now not likely to see as many Conservative MPs propping up the catering outlets on a Thursday evening. The Opposition also welcome the work being done on the diversification of retail opportunities, which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned. There were some recent discussions about extending further the range of products available, with some talk about having Deputy Speaker whiskies or beers. Apparently, that is popular elsewhere, but I could not comment on which would be the most popular Deputy Speaker brand.

The Opposition agree with the right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, the Chair of the Committee, that we should seek to make relevant external hire opportunities available, but we are also clear that we do not wish to see charities being priced out of using the facilities. Many hon. Members on both sides of the House have long supported local charities and good causes, and we think it is vital that the House balances the desire to bring in greater revenue through third party hires with the protection of smaller charities. We concur with the Committee on Standards that there should be no political fundraising on the premises. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will confirm that whatever external opportunities are provided, political fundraising will not be considered.

My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) made an important point about staff relationships, and we agree with it; we wish to see greater progress being made on diversity and equality of staffing. The current Speaker and the House of Commons Commission have made progress on that, but it is important that that work continues. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), in particular, has been championing the cause for some time.

I also want to thank the House staff for their work. A number of staff members have been praised already, so I will not repeat their names, but I wish to add four to the list on behalf of the Opposition: David Natzler, our acting Clerk, who is continuing the good work of his predecessor; John Borley, our director general of facilities, who manages a complex and challenging team; and it is only right that we pay tribute to two Clerks, Helen Wood, on the Administration Committee, and Bob Twigger, who not only clerked the Finance and Services Committee, but has the pleasure of being secretary to the House of Commons Commission—a double treat for him, no doubt!

One thing that my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey raised last year, on which we are frustrated not to see more progress, is bicameral services. The Opposition appreciate that that is not entirely the fault of those on the Treasury Bench, as some of the responsibility—the culpability—does lie at the other end of the corridor. However, we already see a number of shared services on security, broadcasting and IT, so we feel it is ludicrous that we run two separate catering services and Library services. As the Administration Committee and the House of Commons Commission have said, real progress needs to be made. One hopes that with a new Clerk in post at this end of the building, a new Leader of the House at the other end and indeed a new Leader of the House—of course, temporarily—at this end, we will see in the last six months real dialogue on bringing things together. That is where there are some real opportunities for savings to be made. Obviously, I am also disappointed that the House of Lords does not have the equivalent savings programme in place. It is a credit to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, as one of the members of the Finance and Services Committee, that that Committee has driven savings across the board. We would, however, like to see the House of Lords take up more of its share of this programme.

We welcome the neutral financial remit, as has been set out already, and the fact that it does not set a particular spending path beyond 2015-16 that would fetter an incoming Commission. We entirely concur on the importance of Select Committees and scrutinising the work of the Government, and we welcome the extra funds that are being made available. Although we fully support the proposals for the e-petitions system and the new partnership across Government and the House of Commons, we are slightly concerned about the possibility for spending to rise. I hope the Deputy Leader of the House will confirm whether the Government believe that the overall cost of e-petitions and the Select Committee concerned should not add an additional burden to the Select Committee budget.

We entirely concur with the points made about the education centre, which we believe is an important contribution to fostering a higher level of political engagement among young people across the country. The recent referendum in Scotland demonstrates that when we find the right issue, we can engage young people. The education centre has our full support and we wish it full speed.

Let me close by setting out one important point. It is vital not only that Members have opportunities, through continual professional development, to improve our skill sets, but that the senior management team have the appropriate financial skill sets. My hon. Friend the shadow Leader of the House has made it clear that we believe that the senior management team, including the chief executive—this is without prejudging what the Select Committee under the chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) may decide upon—must have appropriate financial skills. I hope that the Deputy Leader of the House will echo that in his response.

This afternoon’s debate has been useful. I look forward to the last 177 days before the general election, and we look forward to continuing to make progress on delivering not just parliamentary scrutiny, but good value for the taxpayer at the same time.

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[John Thurso]

Proposals on the principles of the way forward, rather than the detail, have been received and will be put to the Commission and the House Committee of the Lords at their next meetings. If the proposals are agreed to in principle, the detailed work will take place, but I would not anticipate any particular changes until well into next year. I hope that answer is sufficient for the hon. Gentleman. The director of security would probably give him a fuller briefing, if he would like to take him up on that.

I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) for his full account of the work of the Administration Committee. One of the features of this Parliament has been the Administration Committee and the Finance and Services Committee finding a very good way of working together, with the Administration Committee taking the lead on the services and the Finance and Services Committee taking the lead on the financial implications of that. I am most grateful for his contribution.

The shadow Deputy Leader of the House, or deputy shadow Leader of the House—I am not sure which way around it is—the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), asked a number of substantial questions. The first was where I got the figure of £2.7 million from. The answer is page 10 of the report, which states:

“In the current financial year, at an equivalent point in the electoral cycle, it is forecast to be £2.7 million.”

However, he is absolutely right to ask, as always, because the update is that the like-for-like total net cost for catering services was £1.2 million in the first six months of 2014-15, against £2.25 million in the equivalent period of 2013-14, a reduction of £1.5 million, or 47%. Certainly, that being £360,000 better than budget, it is to be hoped that that will be carried through to the end of the year. I hope that is a reasonable answer. I will write to him about the first question he asked during my speech, but I direct him to annex D on page 32 in relation to the costs of restoration and renewal.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned charities. I absolutely agree that charities should not be penalised. That is part of the policies that have been adopted, and I see no chance of their being changed.

With regard to raising funds from those who come to watch us in this Chamber, there has never been any suggestion, ever, that money be paid by our constituents and the public to view the legislative process, Select Committee hearings, or any other part of our work—and nor should there be. There is a very distinct difference between people coming as members of the public to engage with the political process and those who come as tourists and pay for the privilege. The two are absolutely not linked.

[Thomas Docherty]

We entirely agree about the difference between tourism and watching the democratic process, but will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the Commission supports the position of the Standards and Privileges Committee and the Opposition that political fundraising should not be allowed on the premises?

[John Thurso]

Indeed; I was about to come to that. It is in the purview of the Administration Committee, principally, but I am fairly certain that the policy is rigid and there is no known attempt to change it.

The hon. Gentleman raised the issue of bicameral services. It is of course worth remembering that the other place is a sovereign House, and therefore, in all we do, we negotiate with it, but cannot force it. This is not a matter for those on the Treasury Bench; it is a matter for the two Houses to reach a conclusion on. The reasonableness that their lordships demonstrated in so rapidly agreeing to a common procurement service bodes well for the future. Certainly, in any sane world, the whole Palace would be run as one, and I am sure that one day we will get there.

This has been a good debate, and I commend all Members who have taken part in it.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House notes the First Report of the Finance and Services Committee, HC 757, and the draft medium-term financial plan for the House of Commons as set out in the Appendix to the Report; and endorses the intention of the Finance and Services Committee to recommend to the House of Commons Commission a House of Commons: Administration Estimate for 2015-16 in line with the financial remit set by the House of Commons Commission.