House of Commons Administration and Savings Programme

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Thursday 8th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), because this is the first time that the House has been able to examine, after a considerable degree of preparation and consultation, what is, in effect, its budget. This is an important occasion, and it may well be one that can be repeated on an annual basis.

Some people, when they look at the suggested savings, might think that we are dancing to the Executive’s tune and that that is not what a legislature should do. In fact, one can see from our spending plans that there are ways of making changes and savings that bring us up to date in our operations, even if we are in a 19th-century building. The trouble is that everyone has their own ideas about savings, and what pleases some will not please others, according to their particular pattern of working. At some point, a package needs to be decided. It is not necessarily just a question of cutting or of doing things in a different way; the other ingredient can be to generate income.

We should not over-emphasise the public’s reverence for this building, as my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) has done in the past, because I suspect there is a lot less reverence for the catering deficit, which was £5.9 million at the start of this Parliament and which the proposals will, if carried, bring down to at least £4.4 million for 2012-13. If there is doubt whether we can press ahead with the full programme for the restoration and renewal of this building—a matter to which the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) has just referred—it is because of the fear that the public will be concerned about the costs involved. I think that the public look to us to act in a responsible and, I would hope, business-like way.

I want to concentrate on catering and retail, bearing in mind the thrust of my hon. Friend’s amendment. Clearly, we felt that the catering subsidy could not be ignored. We were not exactly helped by the Commission’s decision to impose a 10% price increase at the start of this Parliament, before the Administration and Finance and Services Committees were in place. That got us off to a difficult start. I wish it had left it a little longer. It has resulted in some perverse effects.

People think of this place as 650 Members of Parliament, but there are in fact 13,000 pass holders, not all of whom have the same income as MPs. A few have higher incomes, but for the most part they are on much lower incomes, and outlets have seen a reduction in footfall. Members of Parliament also entertain their constituents here and are finding that it has become much more costly to do so. We should not create a regime that makes Members hesitate to bring in guests because of the facility costs in certain outlets.

Income generation is an important element in achieving our objectives and we can do it through both catering and retail. I do not think that a considered approach to the issue should be dismissed—as my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow seems to wish—as commercialisation, as though it were a vulgar activity. If, in his own words, this is the people’s palace, I do not see why we should not widen access, especially when our facilities are not needed by us.

[Robert Halfon]

My right hon. Friend has said that some of the proposals are justified because Members are finding the restaurant prices too high. What he is saying is that it is okay to bring in companies to have special access to our facilities, because that will help Members reduce their bills. How can that be right and how would members of the public react to such a proposal?

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

My hon. Friend is both unfair and wrong. I said that one effect of the price increases has been felt by colleagues, but that a much greater effect has been felt by lower-paid pass holders in this Palace—I was more concerned for them. The fact of the matter is that large organisations, be they charitable, private sector or nationalised, have access to this place already, and we take a great deal of revenue from them. All they need is the fig leaf of sponsorship from a Member of Parliament. The proposals simply say that access could be achieved without the presence of a sponsoring MP. There is no actual difference with regard to the ability to access the Palace.

I am worried about the IPSA effect—the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority—on our budgeting arrangements. I believe that the change to Tuesday’s sitting hours has been effected by those colleagues who have found themselves without support for accommodation in central London. I must not impute motive to them, but 43 out of the 96 people affected by that IPSA regulation voted for the change in hours. I can understand why, but it has a serious effect on revenues. On Tuesday evenings this place is now deserted, and on Tuesday mornings we now have great difficulty in bringing in visitors from our constituencies, which is something that many Members value. That is also a question of access.

The Administration Committee has looked—indeed, it is still looking—at how our facilities can be better used. As a general approach, I honestly do not see what is wrong with that. First, I would like to think that Members themselves would use the facilities more often—that would be a start. The Committee, together with the catering management, is trying to find innovative ways in which we can hold Members here more often to take advantage of the facilities and, therefore, make a contribution to revenue, but allowing public access is the other way. Other Parliaments do it. Indeed, in the Parliament of Quebec, the public are able to book a table in the restaurants not only when Members are not present, but on days when the Parliament is actually sitting. I am not suggesting for a moment that we go that far, but the idea that this is a revolutionary or demeaning move on the part of the Palace of Westminster is entirely wrong.

Is it wrong to host civil ceremonies? Is it wrong to develop specialist tours, such as a works of art tour? Is it especially wrong to hire out the facilities? That is what we already do, but we could do more of it. My amendment to the business improvement plans simply draws attention to the valuable work done by the management in that direction, and I believe that that should be given the fullest opportunity to work before we consider any outside catering or similar. Let us put that to the test first—that is the gravamen of my amendment.

[Mr George Howarth]

In congratulating the management, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that they have received considerable co-operation from the trade unions in achieving their ends?

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I absolutely endorse what the right hon. Gentleman has said, although I hope that my testimony to the work that has been done was implied in the fact that I said that the business improvement plans should be given a chance.

Turning to the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow, I am speaking ahead of him, but he has helpfully sent round an e-mail indicating the thrust of what he intends to say. As I have indicated, I do not believe that “commercialisation” is a dirty word. I think that we should adopt a business-like approach, respect taxpayers and recognise that they are concerned about what this place costs, and, at the same time, widen access for many more of those taxpayers. The fact is that we do not yet have a proper visitors centre. We have talked about it in the past and there is a motion in its favour dating back some years, but we have shied away from the cost of it. We ought not to have people standing in a queue outside in all weathers, waiting to get into this building. It is a serious interference with their rights and, in part, probably, the true business of the House.

My hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross mentioned film crews when responding to an intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow. There is nothing new about film crews using the Elizabeth Tower—that has happened before. All we are talking about is charging a proper fee. As I have said, rooms can be hired out already—what is wrong with that? The demand for commercial tours is ever greater, so why should we not satisfy it? Of course, if we meet that demand, there is wear and tear and it is reasonable, on the whole, to find the income to deal with that.

If that is wrong or demeaning, would my hon. Friend extend that description to the sale of souvenirs? We could be accused of going down market by doing that. When I first came here a long time ago, the only gifts available were bottles of whisky and packets of cigarettes. Souvenirs have been extended a great deal since then. It gives great pleasure to people to have the opportunity to buy such things. We could certainly sell a lot more of the gifts that we have. We are doing it, revenue is going up, and I do not see why we should not take every single opportunity proposed by the report.

We are talking, as I said at the beginning, about the House’s budget, which has been laid out in detail. If we take out any item, we must consider the alternatives. I say respectfully to my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow that some of the alternatives that he put forward in the debate on the Clock Tower to save £469,000 a year would, if debated individually like the Clock Tower charges on that day, be heartily rejected by a large majority of his colleagues. The idea that we should cut down on parliamentary outreach at a time when we are trying to extend the idea of what this place is throughout the country or that we should cut down further on overseas trips and delegations, which would hit at the very purpose of our Select Committees, let alone other groups in this House, is all wrong.

It is absurd to suggest that there has been no consultation before today’s debate. The Administration Committee consulted, listened and put forward a sensible plan that we would defend to the hilt. We cannot afford to delay. We need to have a budget in place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

I am pleased to speak in this debate, and I offer my heartfelt congratulations to the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso). He has a thankless task, but he always deals with me with respect and understanding. I greatly admire the work he does; I simply disagree about the emphasis.

I welcome much that is in the report, and it is rare that I disagree with my constituency neighbour, my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst). We have worked together on other matters, but I disagree fundamentally with some of his arguments. As far as I am concerned, there are three issues: first, as I have said, our respect for Parliament; secondly, the precedent that the Commission’s decisions might set; and, thirdly, the need for savings. I am not against savings. I believe that we should have savings; I just dispute where those savings should be made.

The issue of respect is incredibly important, because Parliament is not a stately home or a tourist attraction like many of our other tourist attractions. It is not a hotel or a conference venue. It is a very special place and the foundation of our laws and democracy, and so it needs to be treated differently. Yes, we could make a lot of money by allowing companies to hire out rooms, letting people hold weddings here and allowing film people to use Elizabeth Tower, but, once we set that principle, where do we stop? The hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross is incredibly enlightened, and I believe him when he says that these changes will be limited, but who is to say that someone less enlightened will not in years to come extend the principle still further?

My right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden said, “Well, we already have business sponsored by Members”, but most of that is politically related. We reached a compromise: we allow business to enter Parliament when sponsored by Members and when Members are there, and it is usually related to their activities as Members of Parliament. That is different, however, from allowing businesses to hire out rooms or from giving people special access, because they are rich, to see paintings that my constituents, who are not rich, who are on £20,000 a year, cannot see. This is our Parliament, our democracy, and we pay for it through our taxes. It is not like going round a stately home. That is why I feel so passionately about it.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden criticised what I said during the campaign to stop charges for Big Ben tours. I said much of what I said then for the same reasons I say what I say now. He talked about overseas trips. The whole House will recognise the incredible work that he has done in the Commonwealth and elsewhere, but if we asked taxpayers whether we should shave a few percentage points off overseas trips—I will come on to savings in a moment—or give people privileged access to the Houses of Parliament, I know what they would say.

Once we set the precedent, where do we stop? Do we have rollercoasters outside? [Laughter.] Members may laugh at the suggestion, but once we agree the principle that we become nothing more than a theme park, we create a dangerous precedent.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

It does not help the quality of debate to start using terms such as “theme park”. My hon. Friend has a vivid imagination, if he believes that any of us are interested in going in that direction. What is being proposed is an enlargement of what we do already. The logic of what he is saying, particularly about businesses coming in, is that hon. Members should be prevented now from allowing these functions to take place, and that is irrational.

[Robert Halfon]

This is where the disagreement lies. I think that we have reached a happy compromise and that we should go this far and no further. The Commission is suggesting that businesses will have special privileges to hire out rooms. My right hon. Friend said that if people are rich they should be able to see some special paintings in the House of Commons. That is wrong. This is our Parliament. We should not make a distinction between people with money and people without when deciding who sees which parts of Parliament.

I turn to savings. I have already talked about overseas trips: if a small percentage—20%, for example—was cut, we could save £250,000 a year. Another £50,000 a year is wasted on food waste. Have we ever considered closing one of the dining rooms, for example, because often the dining rooms are not used?

Business of the House

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. A large number of right hon. and hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye. Ordinarily, I seek to accommodate everybody, but I give notice that that will almost certainly not be possible today, because I have to protect the Back-Bench business. There is an important topical debate on the European Council and an important debate on defence, both of which are heavily subscribed. To get in the maximum number of colleagues on business questions, I am looking for short questions and the usual short answers from the Leader of the House.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend say how many communications he has received from my constituents on the Daylight Saving Bill? Would he care to reply to them through me by saying whether there is any prospect of his providing more time for this subject, if not next week, at some point in the future?

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. A good number of e-mails have found their way into my inbox. Of course I understand the strong feelings that have been expressed by our constituents about what happened last Friday. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), who did heroic work in bringing the Bill forward and enabling the House to consider it last Friday in a form of which the Government approved. The Government supported the Bill as it passed through. I have considered my right hon. Friend’s suggestion of providing more Government time. I do not think that that would do the trick, because it would not be this Bill that would get more time, were more time to be provided. There is also the question of whether the Bill would have time to get through another place. My view is that at the beginning of the next Session, somebody should pick up the baton from my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point and try another private Member’s Bill. I remind the House that in previous Parliaments this has always been a subject for private Members’ Bills. I think that that is the right way to make progress.

Procedure Committee Reports

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Thursday 13th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I am not speaking to a brief from the Administration Committee, and I am pleased that the written evidence submitted on behalf of the Committee—whose conclusions were unanimous—has been printed along with the report that is before the House today. What I am about to say will contain my own emphasis, in the context of the Procedure Committee’s report and its recommendations to the House, and I am aware that it will give me a good chance of becoming the leading candidate for the “dinosaur of the year” award.

I think that we should appreciate the extraordinary reputation that the House has throughout the world. We should be humbled by the fact that whatever Parliament or the Government may say or decide, the institution itself is admired and respected enormously. People come from everywhere to see how we proceed as a legislature. I think that the requirement for us to stand on our own feet and use our own wits produces a quality of debate that has given all British parliamentarians a fairly high reputation around the world.

We should bear that in mind, because I believe that if it appears that we are being prompted from outside—which is entirely possible if hand-held devices are produced in the House—our reputation will decline. I am not targeting the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger), but I believe that such devices will accentuate the tendency to read speeches, and the reading of speeches, which is discouraged by “Erskine May”, does have a dampening effect on debate. The hon. Lady made a very gracious contribution, and I repeat that I am merely making a general point.

Once, when I was in the Chair, I had to listen to a speech from an hon. Member who is no longer in the House. I thought that it had a certain ring about it, and indeed I discovered that it was a submission by that hon. Member to a Select Committee which was being read to the House. I was able to follow it word for word. I think there are certain dangers in going down that particular road.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that many speeches that are based on closely written notes are a great deal more interesting than some of the more rambling contributions of other Members? I mention no names.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I accept that the quality of our contributions may vary, and I certainly make no claims for what I have said in that regard. As the hon. Lady knows, I have experienced 13 years with no practice of speaking in the House, so I am a bit of a newcomer myself.

I sometimes wonder, though, what would happen when a Member was using an electronic tablet, for example, and the power went off. That Member could be caught in a very difficult situation. It is ironic, is it not, that we are discussing this matter at a time when one of the best-known devices, owned by many Members, is having problems in achieving the purposes that some Members have extolled today.

I know that I shall not be able to stem a tide of what is, I guess, modernity, but there can be no doubt that it is transformational, and that it does not necessarily accord with the style of debate that we have used in the House over the years. Twice, when I had the privilege of sitting in the Chair, I had to restrain hon. Members from making telephone calls from the Chamber simply because the device was there. No one is suggesting that telephone calls should be made, but the fact that the device is there and can be used for that purpose does, I am afraid, lead to infringements. I also noticed that the Whips on duty on the Government and Opposition Benches were often distracted by the use of their devices and were not keeping pace with business, which created a dysfunction with the Chair.

Such devices are very compelling when they are in someone’s hand. It is not a question of what they might do, which is what is being recommended, but a question of what they can be used for. We know that people’s eyes tend to be drawn to a television screen when they visit someone else’s house. Similarly, the press of a button on a hand-held device can easily enable someone to view images from outside the House that command his or her interest. People know of my interest in cricket. How convenient it would be to ascertain what was happening in the Test match at that very moment! As the bowler was walking back to the end of his run, I should be able to look up and appear interested in what was going on in the Chamber, before looking down again at what was happening at the match.

Notwithstanding the qualified nature of the recommendation before the House—and the fact that it is accompanied by an even more curious suggested qualification from my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray)—the Chair will have no means of knowing what is actually happening when these devices are in use. When we admit them—if we do—we shall have to recognise that they can be used for a variety of purposes that the Chair will find very difficult to distinguish from one another.

[Mr Gray]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I am afraid that I will not. It would extend the length of my speech, and I do not want to do that in view of the limited amount of time left. I apologise to my hon. Friend, because I did refer to him.

It has been said that the purpose of allowing hand-held devices in the Chamber is to enable Members to get on with other activities—what my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) described as multi-tasking. I can honestly say, however, that over the years the Chair has tried to accommodate colleagues by not making them sit through the whole of debates. The convention is that Members are present for opening speeches and for the speeches immediately before and after their own, but the Chair sometimes provides guidance, bearing in mind that we are all under heavy pressure to do so many other things nowadays. I therefore do not think that the idea that Members have to be present for six hours and must get on with their work during that time is a particularly good excuse.

I am not sure whether this still happens, but I know that the public have complained about the fact that the Chamber is so often empty and have asked, “Where are they? What are they doing?” One of my constituents said to me once that any Member who was not in his place in the Chamber for the whole of a debate should be deselected. That has been the level of misconception outside the House. But now, as they look around the Chamber, the public are beginning to notice that Members are, in fact, doing something. A moment ago I saw several colleagues, heads down. It is not a question of whether they are able to multi-task, or whether they are unable to listen to what is being said; it is a question of what the public think they are doing—and they do appear to be distracted from what is going on. That is a reputational point, and the House should consider it. Although I suspect that the House will bow to the inevitable and say, “This is progress,” we must be aware of the direction in which we are heading and understand that the character of our debates is likely to alter.

The Administration Committee report suggested that we should trial this move much more in Committee first, and I still believe that. I used to have doubts on this subject. When I was the Chairman of Ways and Means and the Chairman’s Panel, we were rather opposed to the use of laptops, but I think that the tablet is different. It is less obtrusive and can be used effectively to deal with notes on clauses and all matters related to Committee work. I encourage this course of action, therefore, and that is why the Administration Committee is trying out how to operate in a paperless manner.

To my mind therefore, a better balanced response would have been to say, “Let’s see how this works in Committee before considering whether there is an essential difference between the work in Committee and the work in the House.” My right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight), for whom I have great respect, said what he was commending was a balanced approach on hand-held devices. I think the Administration Committee proposal, which I have advocated in my speech, would have offered a better balance still.

Sir Malcolm Jack KCB

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

I have had the honour of serving in this House for a high proportion of the years in which our retiring Clerk has served, and I am pleased to have the opportunity to attest to the enormous work that he has done at various levels, giving sagacious and good-humoured advice throughout. His knowledge of this place is such that we should perhaps hope that his memoirs will be confined to the next edition of “Erskine May”, rather than branching out into any other form.

I pay special tribute to Sir Malcolm for the devotion that he has shown to a matter beyond the immediate needs of the House: the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. To take up what my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House said, Sir Malcolm has understood, during his time as Clerk, that Parliament is seen very much as a central feature of the whole Commonwealth parliamentary structure. He has put himself out at all times to ensure that the Clerks department and hon. Members are actively engaged in discussions and liaison with other parliamentary associations across the Commonwealth. That is an important part of parliamentary activity, though not, perhaps, the one most noticed by the public. He has played a great role in strengthening those parliamentary connections, and we should be grateful to him for that. It is fitting that towards the climax of his parliamentary career he will, alongside you, Mr Speaker, play a pivotal part in the centennial conference of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association in London later this month.

Business of the House

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

The Government are perfectly entitled to defend their position in the House and in a Division.

As for shadow Leader of the House’s question about disabled people and the minimum wage, the suggestion made was outrageous. It is not Government policy, and I agree with what he said about it.

We would welcome a debate on ministerial statements. It is for the Backbench Business Committee to find time to debate the proposals of the Procedure Committee. This Government have made roughly one third more ministerial statements a day than the outgoing Administration, and we are more than anxious to keep the House fully informed. There will not be another SDSR, as the Prime Minister made clear, and there is not a review of it.

As for the right hon. Gentleman’s comments about zealots, which I believe were reported in the press, the comments and criticisms within the coalition Government are, from time to time, made by members of two different parties, whereas in the previous Government much more offensive comments were made about Ministers in the same party, so I am not sure that he should raise the issue on the Floor on the House.

So far as MEPs are concerned, the coalition’s policy is wholly unaffected by what happens in the European Parliament. The coalition Government’s commitment to reducing CO₂ emissions and climate change remains unaffected.

As for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman welcomes the additional £2.2 million for the Arabic service, for which there was support among Members on both sides of the House. In the context of a budget for the World Service of some £250 million, it is difficult to describe that as a mammoth U-turn. It is a sensible and welcome change in response to pressure from the House.

So far as rethinking Government policies is concerned, I wonder how long it will be before the right hon. Gentleman’s party reconsiders the shadow Chancellor’s view on a reduction in VAT, which it seems was introduced without any consultation with his colleagues.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

Would my right hon. Friend consider it appropriate to hold a debate in Government time on the future of the Commonwealth? We are approaching an important Heads of Government conference in the autumn and, more imminently, the centennial conference of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association here in London.

[Sir George Young]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s work as chairman of the CPA in organising an important conference at the end of next month. I am glad that a number of my ministerial colleagues will speak at the conference, which I hope will be a great success. I would be misleading him, however, if I said that I could find time between now and the summer recess for a debate on the Commonwealth, but I hope that there might be an opportunity to raise the issue in Foreign and Commonwealth Office questions or perhaps to seek a debate in Westminster Hall.

Parliamentary Reform

Lord Haselhurst Excerpts

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) for sparking this debate, which is obviously of great interest to colleagues judging by the attendance.

We should be careful about supposing that we are completely beneath public contempt. The excellent paper produced by the Hansard Society mentions public perception. It states that

“60% believe that Parliament is a worthwhile institution and 75% that a strong Parliament is good for democracy.”

What the public do not like are MPs who fiddle their expenses, and half the public at any one time dislike the decisions taken by Parliament, which may be for political and personal reasons. We will not easily get over those difficulties, and I do not think that the prescription being offered by the hon. Lady necessarily meets the real needs of Parliament today, if we are to improve ourselves as a legislature controlling the Executive.

To contribute to a debate on reform and not endorse every single point made by the initiator of the debate risks being branded a reactionary. I realise that if I allude for one moment to the experience that I have had in this House, I shall equally be condemned as an old fogey. I am taking a risk by even speaking in this debate.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

I do not think that anyone thinks that, bearing in mind that the right hon. Gentleman has accepted that we should trial iPads in Committee. I understand that he is an enthusiast on that front, which is absolutely marvellous.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

My hon. Friend is in danger of stealing my thunder, because I was about to say that I regard myself as a reformer. If hon. Members look at the evidence that I have given to the Modernisation Committee over a period of years, they will appreciate that I have fizzed with ideas as to how we might change our procedures and practices. However, I remain a conservative with a small “c” as far as our institutions are concerned. Change should not be rushed—if it is, we tend to recant very quickly, as in the case of the Tuesday sitting hours, when we went one way before going back the other. We have introduced topical debates, but we do not think that they are a particularly great idea, and we have gone for topical questions, which we think are a good idea. We should think things through before we rush into them. The stability of our Parliament, in contrast to many others, is testament to the way in which we have gone about things.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that our absolute purpose, as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) has said, is to hold the Executive to account and to debate matters fully and properly, but that the way in which business is scheduled in the House militates against that? In that respect, I apologise for not being able to stay for the end of the debate, because two other debates, in which I am also keen to participate, are happening simultaneously. We have to look at allocating time, so that we can debate issues properly, because that does not happen now.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I am going to be slightly meaner in my disposition towards interventions; otherwise I shall never get through my argument. The hon. Lady’s point is absolutely relevant to something that I will say later in response to the proposals by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion.

The House has renewed itself, and the fact that we are in this Chamber is one symbol of that. The fact that we are here at the behest of a Backbench Business Committee is further testament to the fact that we are capable of doing things differently. At first, this Chamber was greeted with suspicion, but it is now readily embraced and is ripe for further exploitation—a point that is also made in the Hansard Society paper. Why not use this Chamber for uncontentious Second Reading debates? Why not repeat the experiment with cross-cutting question sessions, which was cast aside too lightly? Why not table questions to the person representing the House of Commons Commission or the Church Commissioners in this Chamber, rather than in the main Chamber? We might also bring into the sequence the Chair of the Finance and Services Committee or the Chair of the Administration Committee—I mention the last of those modestly. The fact is that such things should be open to more questioning by hon. Members.

[Chris Bryant]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I want to press on, because many hon. Members want to speak.

A lot of change has taken place in my time. Radio and TV have come in, and broadcasters have progressively achieved more flexible access. All-night sittings have almost been expunged, and sittings beyond 10 pm are now rare. The programming of legislation is now the norm. Departmental Select Committees were only set up in 1981. Notice for questions is now shorter, and topical questions have been introduced. Deferred Divisions have been set up. New technology is being cautiously embraced. Time limits have been introduced on speeches, and we could go further with that in Committee, on Report and during discussion of private Members’ Bills. The Backbench Business Committee has been established. Elections are now rife, giving more power to Back Benchers. The Standing Orders are continually being changed—the ink is hardly dry on the paper, such has been the pace of reform.

The Hansard Society paper has a great many good ideas in it, particularly regarding the legislative process. I do not want to go into that in detail, but I commend the paper as a subject for further discussion. Let me be up-front, however, about where I caution against change. This Parliament is a debating chamber—that is what distinguishes it from many other Parliaments—and our performance is of high quality. We should keep away from the idea of written speeches, which kill debate.

I would keep the indirect form of address. Having watched the Parliament and, worse, the state Parliaments in action in Australia, I have seen abuse to which the direct form of address gives rise, which is shocking. Our system acts as a filter, ensuring that debates are conducted in a civilised manner. The fact is that we also forget the names of colleagues across the Floor half the time, so referring to them as “the hon. Member” is a good cover.

The House should not press for the list of speakers in a debate to be published. Having spent 13 years handling such situations, I know that hon. Members are not entirely reliable in their relationships with the Chair. The Chair tries to make up for that by being considerate and juggling lists to enable hon. Members to go off and do things that suddenly arise. Under the list proposal, however, the hon. Member who did not turn up— unfortunately that happens quite a lot—would then find that the local press were on to them to ask why they had not been present for a debate. The proposal is not, therefore, quite the obvious solution it might be thought to be. Furthermore, someone who thinks that they know when they will speak in a debate might absent themselves for rather more of the time, so I am not sure that the proposal is entirely forward-looking.

I am very suspicious about electronic voting at a single time of day. There is the question of amendments being contingent one on another. If we want a process that increasingly divorces debate from decision, that is the way to go, but there are times when we have to dispose of one amendment before we can logically go on to the next, and that has not been sufficiently thought through.

[Caroline Lucas]

We have discussed that extensively with the Clerks, who have pointed out that it is perfectly possible to have a mechanism whereby the Chair could indicate which votes are contingent on other amendments. It is not beyond our wit to work out a system whereby we can vote electronically and in sequence, with the votes the way they have been put down.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I take that point, but the hon. Lady possibly overestimates the skills of Members when they are suddenly asked to look at complicated things. For all the explanations that might be available, it is sometimes difficult for us to get our ideas straight, particularly when we have to vote instantly, rather than having a couple of minutes to think carefully about an issue.

I am not against private Members’ Bills staying on Fridays. The fact that a proposal is a private Member’s Bill does not immediately invest it with merit, and some pretty ordinary ones come up. It is interesting that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion has suggested a mid-week slot, when the rest of her argument about the timing of sittings goes against spending time on such things in the evenings after a full day’s debate, which seems inconsistent. I would keep private Members’ Bills on Fridays. One argument is that if hon. Members cannot get 100 colleagues into the House to support them, their proposal may not be worth supporting, but I will not go down that line. I will go halfway towards what the hon. Lady has said by suggesting that private Members’ Bills should be on Fridays, but that there should be a specific three-hour slot for debate, with a deferred Division, at another time in the week. That would be a useful way of looking at the issue.

On the sitting pattern, it is important that we get the balance right between our duties in our constituencies and our duties in Westminster. The balance has moved too far, to the point that we are overly obsessed with what happens in our constituencies while we are away in Westminster.

We also have to decide whether we want predictability or an element of spontaneity as our guideline. If this place is to keep up with topical issues, we may need to adjust the Order Paper to take account of that. At the moment, the only person, beyond the Executive, who has the power to do that is the Speaker. Our Parliament treats the Speaker with greater puritanism than any other Parliament in the world. We say that someone becomes independent from the moment they become the Speaker and that they never go back to party political association. That being the case, we are telling every Member, even if they are the only Member representing a party or independent minority group, that they can trust the Speaker to give them a fair deal, because the Speaker has no axe to grind. If we accept that, do we want the Speaker to grant urgent questions or even Standing Order No. 24 emergency debates, which will simply shatter the business for the following day? Alternatively, are we content, as has happened in my experience, to have two Government statements and an urgent question take an absolutely huge chunk out of the time, when an important debate would otherwise have been scheduled for that day? We must think about that and get the compromise right.

I declare an interest as Chair of the Administration Committee, because in a sense that shows me another side of the practice of the House, which is keeping the turnstiles turning and the cash registers ringing. I have also been a distant Member of the House as well, having represented, for a period of years, the north Manchester seat of Middleton and Prestwich, so when I discuss family-friendly arrangements, I understand them from two different angles. We should not only discuss arrangements that are family-friendly for hon. Members who live in London, as the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) has mentioned in an intervention. If we think only from that point of view, what we decide will be self-fulfilling, and we shall put more pressure on hon. Members to live in London and visit their constituencies, and I am not sure whether the Selection Committee would be entirely enamoured by our doing that.

A Member who finishes at 6pm will not get to Manchester in time to tuck up the children in bed, and they will have to get up jolly early to be here by 9 am the following morning—or 8 am to put in a prayer slip to reserve a seat for that day. Mention has been made of a parent in London wanting to take the children to school, who might have difficulty getting here by that early hour. We should also think of our staff. Members should not forget the amount of preparatory work that must be done from the lowliest level up to the Clerks, to ensure that our business can start at the hour when it does. We may be forcing staff to get up terribly early— 4 am or 4.30 am—to get here to do the jobs they must do for us to function. We should take their welfare into account, too.

What is friendly in terms of making this Parliament operate more effectively? The Chamber is the heart of our system and at the moment other activities partly overlap with the sittings of the Chamber. If we go to a 9 am to 6 pm arrangement, as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion has proposed, there will be a complete overlap for every other activity in the House, including Select Committees, Public Bill Committees and all-party groups. If hon. Members cast an eye over the “All Party Whip” they will see the wide range of all-party groups—scarcely a condition of the human body is not covered by one. Those are legitimate activities, and there are deep interests at stake for small groups of Members, who must be accommodated. There are also lobby events, where hon. Members want to hear from particular groups. Ad hoc meetings crop up, outside visits must be undertaken and there must be contact time with Departments of State, councils and other bodies to which Members are making representations on behalf of their constituents. How will all that fit in satisfactorily in human and logistical terms? Will all the rooms be available at the right time? It is difficult enough now to get attendance at Select Committees, but if they are to be effective and their reports are to be valid, attendance must be constant.

The competition for hon. Members’ time is intense, and fitting everything into a shorter period of time will, I suggest, be very difficult. It would create a risk that the Chamber would become even more sparsely attended than it sometimes is today. Alternatively Members will multi-task in the Chamber. That is part of the justification for having BlackBerrys and other devices in the Chamber. Members of the public are beginning to dislike that as much as the absence of Members from the Chamber, and Mr Speaker gets letters on the subject. The right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), who left his place earlier, has also received representations from his constituents about that.

[Mr Carswell]

Is my right hon. Friend suggesting that many of the people who follow me on Twitter and who follow blogs written in the Chamber take exception to what I am doing? Is not the practice a good thing, which allows me to connect with people who do not sit and watch TV?

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I am sorry to disappoint my hon. Friend, but the public are beginning to notice and believe that Members should not have their heads down looking at those devices while they are meant to be listening to a debate. That is their opinion—it may be wrong but it is their opinion and they do not like it. [Hon. Members: “He’s twittering.”] My hon. Friend may find that there is a ruling yet from the Chair dealing with Twitter as distinct from other things. [Interruption.] It is difficult to silence the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant).

A point that has not been discussed so far is the fact that we make this place available for members of the public to tour in the mornings. Many hon. Members like the opportunity for their constituents to be here—schools in particular—and Parliament is conducting a big outreach programme. That would become much more difficult under the regime that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion has put forward.

[Jo Swinson]

On tourists, does the right hon. Gentleman accept that it is difficult for most members of the public to visit Parliament on weekdays? It would be helpful if Parliament were open at weekends for people to come and have a look round.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I am very interested in the question of access, but do not want to go too far into it now. I am happy to receive representations in my capacity as Chair of the Administration Committee. The House is, of course, open on a Saturday, but I am not sure whether it is entirely suitable for school parties to come then. I just mentioned that point as another thing to be factored into the equation.

We have changed over the years. The pace may not be fast enough for some, but we can speed up the process of examining all the new ideas. I do not, however, believe that we need another Committee. We have had the experience of the Modernisation Committee and, frankly, to have it running side by side with the Procedure Committee was unsatisfactory. The Procedure Committee should be invested with the relevant responsibilities and, if necessary, it should be geed up to work faster, if the House believes that the issues are important ones and need to be examined. Perhaps the right expression—which would be appreciated by the Chair of the Procedure Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight), as a motoring man—is that we need to change gear and move a little faster. That would help to satisfy those who feel that some things have been ignored for too long.

The real challenge is how we are to make the House more effective. I think that the content of the Hansard Society paper that has been circulated is perhaps more relevant than what the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion has said, because concentrating on the cutting or rearrangement of hours is not the main priority or the best route towards a more effective Parliament.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Heath]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are committed to bringing forward a full business of the House committee. We will not do so until we have seen the way in which the Backbench Business Committee has operated, so that we can learn from experience. Certainly, the early experiences have been good. We should be able to move towards a sensible use of time in this Chamber even without such a Committee, but that needs a degree of co-operation and a bit of grown-up politics, so that when we provide more time for Bills it is used sensibly and not used exclusively by Opposition Front Benchers to the exclusion of Back Benchers. Such issues are important for the whole House. We should ensure that the issues that parliamentarians wish to address have sufficient time to be addressed properly. When we come to a sensible agreement, we should keep to it, because it benefits everybody. My plea is that we discuss these matters, both informally and formally, stick to agreements and try to find the right time for everybody to have their say.

I want briefly to deal with some of the issues that have been raised in debate. For many of them, I will simply say, “It is not a matter for Government.” I will be right, because it is a matter for the House. The House, in both my mind and the mind of the Leader of the House, has a key role to play. We have the Procedure Committee considering sitting hours. There are very strong views on either side of the argument. It is not a question of right and wrong, but a question of what is least bad for many Members. I am looking forward to the options that the Procedure Committee will produce for the House to consider.

As for electronic voting, when I was first elected back in 1997, we discussed whether the current voting system is sensible. The Modernisation Committee cogitated for six months before coming up with its conclusion, which was to do away with the two Clerks on high stools solemnly ticking us all off as we filed past and dramatically replace it with three Clerks on high stools ticking us all off, which was the extent of modernisation in this House. That was the decision of the House. The House wanted to keep to its system, because it was argued that that was the way in which Members could rub shoulders with Ministers. As an Opposition Member, I could never quite see when I would get to rub shoulders with a Minister. It is an issue that is perfectly proper for us to consider. I am struggling at the moment to persuade the Clerks of the House that they need to take a few people off the G to M section during a vote. [Interruption.] There are 20% more in our column than in the other two columns, so I have a partisan view on that.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I refresh the Deputy Leader of the House’s mind that there was one occasion when the England football team were involved in a critical World cup match. A Division occurred in the middle of the match and it was accomplished in nine minutes. Where there is a will, there is a way.

[Mr Heath]

Yes, sometimes. Congestion is a problem—perhaps we should have a congestion charge in the Lobbies.

There are obvious arguments in favour of occasional deferred voting. However, there are also problems with sequential amendments, which were outlined by the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst). We need to look at how that problem might be managed if occasional deferred voting is to proceed, but that is another matter for the House to consider.

Regarding abstentions, it has always struck me as odd that we have no way of differentiating between an abstention and an absenteeism. There is no way of knowing that a right hon. Member or hon. Member is here in Parliament but has chosen not to vote for the options before the House. Of course, the results of votes are now recorded electronically and are sent around the country. Constituents believe that their MP simply was not there rather than that they were there, had listened to the arguments made in the debate and were not persuaded by either of the positions that were taken.

I hope that we will make progress on private Members’ Bills. As has already been said, the Procedure Committee is looking at that issue.

Regarding explanations for amendments, we had the experiment in Committee and I am certainly happy, as far as the Government are concerned, for that experiment to proceed. Perhaps we ought to look at having such explanations on Report, too. I have argued that occasionally there is room for rubric on motions, including the type of business motion that appears late at night before the House that is completely inexplicable to most Members of the House but is actually entirely benign. I think that we can speed up our progress, but I have been told by the Clerks that we cannot possibly put a bit of rubric on the Order Paper to explain why we are doing it. I do not know why that is the case.

Parliamentary language is an issue that we could debate all evening and I will not enter into it other than to say that we have heard the arguments on both sides.

The additional use of Westminster Hall is an important issue. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden was one of the pioneers of its additional use. He is not an old fogey. He pioneered real innovation in this House in helping to create this Chamber, and if we can use it more effectively we should do so. We ought to look at that issue.

Regarding the legislative process, pre-legislative scrutiny is important, and this Government are committed to it. By the end of this Session, we will have subjected far more Bills to a process of pre-legislative scrutiny than the previous Government did in the final Session of the previous Parliament. It has not happened yet simply because we are a new Government, and inevitably with new legislation one has to start somewhere, otherwise the whole system grinds to a halt. However, we are certainly committed to that process, as we are to the process of post-legislative scrutiny. Indeed, some of the levers for that are already there in the hands of the Select Committees, if they choose to use them.

The issue of commissions of inquiry was raised by the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher). He might remember that, before I was in my present not-very-exalted position, I introduced a Bill to allow commissions of inquiry. There is a strong argument for them, and I am engaging with Ministers to see whether there will be a legislative opportunity for doing exactly as he wishes.

Regarding scrutiny of expenditure, we have already had the clear line of sight programme from the Treasury, which is important and which has allowed a degree of co-ordination in scrutinising expenditure, but we can go further in allowing the House to scrutinise Government expenditure more effectively. Again, however, the Select Committees have an important scrutiny role, which they have not fully exploited. As for lobbyists, we intend to introduce legislation shortly to deal with their registration. I agree that that is an important issue, too.

I will start to wind up now, Mr Benton, because the hon. Member for Leicester South (Sir Peter Soulsby), who will speak for the Procedure Committee—I am so sorry that the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight), the Chairman of the Committee, is indisposed today and is unable to be here—wishes to speak.

The problem that we had with the previous Government was their attempt to lead the House’s modernisation agenda themselves, by using the Modernisation Committee, chairing it and then effectively abandoning it in the final months and years of the previous Parliament. We are making real progress on a wide front in reforming Parliament, and where there is a need for legislation we will introduce it. The procedure and processes of the House are a matter for the House itself, and we are keen that the House takes the lead on those issues. We might have clear views, and we will express them, but as a Government we should not impose processes on the House.