Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill

Lord Gascoigne Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 3rd September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Goschen (Con)]

We are very rarely on exactly the same side as the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti— I will certainly accept her correction. I think the noble Lord, Lord Empey, described the overall situation brilliantly—we cannot just do nothing or scratch around at the edges, which is an awful lot of what this particular Bill is about. We need to look at different situations and different solutions, and that is why I very much look forward to the Minister’s response to my noble friend’s Amendment 203J.

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

My Lords, I am conscious that this has been a long group already, and I know that the Government Whips will be staring at me with glaring eyes. I did not intend to speak in this debate; this is my first raising of my head into the fray of the Bill. I was listening to what my noble friend and others have said. As some will recall, I was answering from the Dispatch Box on behalf of the Home Office at the tail end of the last Government, and I confess to the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, that, I am sorry to say, I was involved in the drafting of the then Rwanda deal in No. 10 when one of the previous Prime Ministers was there. It was good then; it is good now.

[Lord Faulks (Non-Afl)]

The noble Lord says that it was good. There was a provision in the Rwanda Bill which said that, notwithstanding deeming that Rwanda was safe, it might not be safe for the individual, so the Bill would not even have worked.

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

I suppose that was a slight defect of the Bill, but that ship has sailed. The crucial point, which I will come back to—and I respect the noble Lord enormously—is that the Rwanda deal had a deterrent, and that is what we are lacking. It may have been only for small numbers, not anywhere near the numbers we wanted, but it was a deterrent. It was one part of a series of steps that we should have taken, but, as I say, that ship has sailed.

I am backing the amendments from my noble friend Lord Murray and my noble friends on my Front Bench, certainly not because I have been asked or told to, and, as my noble friend Lord Jackson said, this is not about pulling out of the ECHR or the refugee convention, nor—as I think the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, was saying—about saying that we do not want to accept any refugees, but because it is about tackling illegal migration and the crossings we have had.

We have seen one so-called spectre raise its head today in the form of the elected President of the United States. There is another spectre on the horizon that we have not yet heard about, but I am sure we will at some stage: Reform UK and Farage. It is certainly not a view that I share, nor is it that of Reform voters. I am not saying that the Ministers do not know this, but I echo what the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said: outside this hallowed hall there is a genuine, deep, growing sense of unease, anger and frustration, which is building. I know that it is not unique to this Government, as it has been growing for some time, but it has grown exponentially of late because of this sense of injustice and lack of control.

As I think the Government have said—which the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, alluded to—crucially, we need a deterrent to tackle the crossings. We have to grip this; we have to tackle the numbers and, as I think my noble friend Lord Goschen was saying, we have to tackle the pull factor. There is no deterrent in the Bill as it currently stands. That is why I wholeheartedly support my noble friend, and the two amendments from my Front Bench.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, in sporting words, this has been a game of two halves. One half has very much struck at what I would call Second Reading speeches and issues, and the other has been very specifically about the structure and place of safety issues in the Bill. I will deal first with the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and my noble friend Lady Hamwee, supported by my noble friend Lady Brinton, on Section 59 of the Illegal Migration Act.

My first question to the Government is why they are retaining this section of the Illegal Migration Act, which I understand has not been enacted. I understand that their rationale is what we call “operational benefit”. That could mean having some petrol in the car or some policy vehicle that you want to move forward. An explanation of what that operational benefit is would be helpful, because the retention of this section effectively removes the Secretary of State’s discretion in declaring asylum and human rights claims from these countries and renders them all inadmissible.

We have been talking about what is “generally safe”, and so on. I recall the 2023 regulations, on which I spoke about the inclusion of Georgia, Albania and India. I made the point that countries can be safe for most people, but not all. The context is that, as the UNHCR says, we have to note that, while a safe destination may be procedural, it does not negate the need for individual assessment, particularly in avoiding the risk of refoulement, significantly, which we have talked about here over the years.

It is down to the Government to tell us why they want to retain this section. We talked about the threshold for admissibility being negligible. As I understand it, there is only a limited judicial review route with no right of appeal, so if somebody wishes to try to appeal, it is a very thin route, and judicial review is not a simple process—it requires considerable assistance.

My colleagues have raised major concerns, particularly about Georgia. Colleagues in this Chamber will know that we have spoken to the leaders of political parties. One of those I spoke to went back the next day and was immediately imprisoned. Just think about this policy of treating Georgia as safe. By the way, Georgia is in the Government’s list but not in the Conservatives’ list, which we will discuss later—even they agree that Georgia is not safe. Let us imagine that we were commanded by the Lord Speaker to attend here at a certain time and sign a particular support motion for the Government, not as a recommendation but as an imprisonable offence. That is happening. Political freedoms, which we all think are essential, are being denigrated in Georgia at the moment.

We have heard about how changes in countries can happen frequently and rapidly. We just cannot afford to say, “This place is safe”, and then a few years later change our mind after many people have suffered because of its actions. I repeat the report from the United Nations high commissioner: we have to make an individual assessment and make sure that we are obviating the risk of refoulement.

I will simply say two things about the second half. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, was absolutely right that, if you are a member of a convention and want to change it in a big way, we know from the way that conventions are placed that there is room for movement, adjustment and interpretation. I would maintain that the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Murray, is a severe method. Under it, the only people who could be admitted to this country, for example, would be people who took a flight directly from Sudan to London Heathrow. There are no flights—and I know that there are noble Lords here who know that. Our experience is that it is right for conventions to be examined all the time, and to try to make them move on.

I noted many mistakes. People frequently interpret the ECHR as being a body of Europe. It is actually a body of the Council of Europe. Could the Minister address this? I spoke to the Secretary General of the Council of Europe, who is responsible for the Committee of Ministers, including those from this country, and he said that discussion on the ECHR is already under way among the countries in the Council of Europe. I must say to those who say we should leave the ECHR that we would be leaving the Council of Europe as well. We as a country have signed up to 151 conventions on freedoms that we all take for granted. We have to be clear about this and take the approach of the noble Lord, Lord Empey. I do not know how far it has progressed, but it has certainly started and is under way, and I know that that discussion will progress.

I do not think that any other noble Lords in the Chamber are members of the IAC of this Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Jackson, asked about the Hillmore agreement, where the decision was taken not to have the scrutiny under the CRaG arrangement. It is the IAC of your Lordships’ House that does it on behalf of Parliament, by the way—not just the House of Lords but also the House of Commons. We discussed this matter yesterday because obviously, it is clearly important. The noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, is sitting right next to the noble Lord, and she will tell him that there was an exchange of letters between the Government and the committee. We have agreement from the Secretary of State for Home Affairs that there will be an evidence session, and they will provide exact details of the agreement. The committee will then report to Parliament, and there can be a debate in this House about that matter. In some senses, it is a bit of an advantage to have a treaty that is in action in this case, so we will be able to report on what is happening rather than what is proposed to happen. It may be second best, but it certainly was possible for it to happen.

So, in conclusion, I return to my first question: why do the Government want to retain this section of the Illegal Migration Act? If they do, what is the operational benefit?

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Gascoigne Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 16th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. I confess that at the beginning I was a little sceptical, not so much about the amendment but about the issue that the Government and every previous Government have faced of trying to control the benefits bill. It is not easy and, as this Government have just discovered, trying to remove two existing benefits has proved incredibly difficult. We are trying to reduce the percentage of our GDP that we spend and it is not easy if we cannot control benefits. The winter fuel payment and the disability payments have proved just how challenging this is.

However, the amendment has my support because, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has explained very plainly, of the impact that this situation has on families, probably more on middle-income families who have less in savings than on other people. It is a relatively small amount of money—at £187, it is not a massive amount—but it could make a real difference to people who are already in the distressing situation of trying to care for their family while a child is in hospital. The total cost to the Exchequer is around £6 million to £8 million—it does not run into billions of pounds. It is something that we and the Government could support. The amendment certainly has my support in this change to help parents at a time that they most need it and when a child most needs it, too.

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my good friend, and I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for bringing forward this amendment, which I proudly support. I am sure that I speak for everyone in the Chamber in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for sharing his experience in an unbelievably emotional and powerful speech.

There has been much debate of late, as we have heard today, about the size and scale of the welfare state. There needs to be reform, as I think everyone accepts. The welfare state should be tough—indeed, it should be tougher—but it must also be compassionate to those who need it. I have not had direct experience and cannot comprehend the pain and agony of people who have been told that their children are seriously ill and require palliative care. There is then the impossible decision, as the noble Baroness said, of what to do about work. My noble friend Lady Wyld talked about the work she did, as we all did, and the amazing advances in neonatal care. This proposal is the next logical step —it builds on what we have already done.

The campaign group It’s Never You has done research highlighting the impact on parents and children: almost 90% of parents had to reduce their working hours or leave employment, and almost 80% noted the understandable effects on their mental health. Many studies link a pro-family environment with benefits not only to families but to businesses by contributing to high employee satisfaction, reduced turnover and increased productivity.

I know that there are those who have concerns about the growing size of the state. While this amendment is noble in itself, there are three other things to consider for those who may perceive it to be yet another endless cost among many. One is that the provision should be time-limited, considering a specific period in a poor family’s life. Secondly, it should be tightly defined to cover only up to a certain age limit, and specific care. Thirdly, and crucially, as has already been said, it is for those who cannot afford not to work, who will working and contributing again when the time is right.

As the noble Baroness said, this proposal stems from the tragic case of a young boy called Hugh who, sadly, died at the age of six from a rare form of cancer. This amendment is thanks to his remarkable and in many ways heroic parents and their family, who have campaigned and gained such support across the country. Alas, as has been noted, since Committee hundreds of families will have been given the ghastly news about their children and suffered their own agony and pain.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Gascoigne Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 127 from my noble friend Lady Penn. I declare an interest—which I am increasingly discovering to be a growing financial interest—in the form of my two daughters, who are the most precious things to me.

I confess that I am glad that it is my noble friend Lady Penn who is leading the charge on this amendment, and the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, leading the group. I rise with some trepidation. I am not alone in being conscious that, in speaking to this amendment, as a man I am putting myself slightly in the firing line by somehow implying that a man should have exactly the same as the woman who has just carried and given birth to the child. As has been said, this is not about more rights for the man. It is more than that. It is about ensuring a dad can be at home to play their part for the child and, crucially, be there for the mum.

I am lucky and immensely grateful that, on both occasions when my wife gave birth to our children, I had two supportive bosses, one of whom I am delighted to say is still my boss, in the form of the Opposition Chief Whip. When the time came, my noble friend worked to give me the support and time I wanted to be with my family. When I was in the Government Whips’ Office, I worked with colleagues—two of whom I am pleased to see here, in the form of the noble Lords, Lord Evans and Lord Harlech—to ensure that we all got the time at home that we wanted, especially me. This is not unique, but I was lucky: lucky that it was offered, lucky that it was an open dialogue, lucky that I could ask for what I would like without recourse and was completely understood, and lucky that the support extended beyond the time I was at home. I was also lucky that my child was healthy and lucky that I had my in-laws around to help out.

Like so many in the country, I wanted to be at home to help, but also to share those early moments—the precious moments in a young child’s life that were mentioned earlier. I was there to help, tidy, ferry, feed, give cover and support my wife, who was recovering after surgery. To explain my personal circumstances, both of my children’s births were not simple. The first required emergency surgery, and then a return to hospital for another stay a week after coming home. Our second child’s birth was also complicated. Despite being a planned caesarean, the surgery did not go well and it required weeks of hospital visits. There is no way at all that my wife, on her return, could have looked after a newborn child, never mind our eldest or, indeed, herself.

I say this not for sympathy, or to suggest that I am special or unique, or deserve better support than others. General statistics show that, on average, a labour can last up to 18 hours. While around 46% of women who give birth in England spend one day in postnatal care, around 40% of women spend two days or more. Caesareans have increased over the last decade, amounting to over 40% of births. It is worth reflecting that the advice on caesareans is that for weeks the mother should not lift anything heavier than her own baby.

Not everyone is able to have a wider family network to rally in support. While I was lucky that I had support at work, some are not so lucky. They do not have a choice and have to return to work sooner than they would like to, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said. Indeed, I read online that one dad was back at work 24 hours after their child was born.

I am a realist and I know that money does not grow on trees, and many businesses are already providing longer and better parental leave. Some may say that they have concerns about the impact on business and the economy, and I will not comment on the Bill as a whole, but it is obviously right that each and every day we should be supporting and helping businesses to grow—they pay the taxes and employ people.

Research shows that three-quarters of employers who offer extended leave see an increase in productivity and engagement, and almost 100% of fathers said flexibility is a deal breaker when looking for employment. As my noble friend Lady Penn said earlier, extended leave is good for parents, so that they can help and support one another; it is good for the child, to ensure that support is there for them, and to build bonds as part of a new unit; and it is good for forming another special bond, the one between employer and employee. I hope that all noble Lords, especially in my own party, recognise the merits of this amendment as something that is good for both business and families.

[Baroness O'Grady of Upper Holloway (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak very, very briefly. It is heartening to hear support for the amendments in this group right across the House. I will speak in particular to those from the noble Baronesses, Lady Lister and Lady Penn. I have already shared with the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, that, when I was at the TUC, I very, very vividly remember having conversations with young men who were working as riders and delivery drivers, and they really, really wanted to be good dads. They had young babies and children, and what was most important to them—and I hope others will reflect this in paying attention to how we make working families’ lives better—was predictability of shifts and guaranteed hours, so they would know how much money they could earn, but they also wanted paid paternity leave.

To keep this really, really brief, I have a couple of questions for my noble friend the Minister before she responds. First, can we accept that the starting point for a review would be to recognise that, compared with other countries, the UK is so ungenerous in its paid paternity leave? We do not need a huge review to know that; it is our starting point. If we are to move into the 21st century, we also need to recognise that new dads from all sorts of backgrounds want time to bond with their babies and be involved more equally in their care. Secondly, will this review focus specifically on paid paternity leave, working from the simple premise that, unless it is paid, there are whole swathes of new dads who simply cannot afford to take it?

I have been encouraged by the discussion around the House. I think there is a cross-party consensus that we all want to see new dads having that opportunity. We all know it will bring benefits for women—including closing the gender pay gap—and opportunities for children to have a better life, too.

Southport Attack

Lord Gascoigne Excerpts

Monday 27th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My noble friend has faced decisions such as those that we have faced in these past few months, and he knows the difficulty of dealing with incidents such as the one that happened in Southport in the summer of last year. I understand and take his point, and I am grateful for his support. I hope the House will understand that the Government not commenting on certain issues is not about them trying to cover up or be secretive or not divulge information; it is about ensuring that that information is divulged at a time when it is most effective to secure convictions of individuals such as the one responsible for an atrocious act that took three lives.

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

My Lords, I have two quick questions for the Minister. First, obviously, the state has failed with horrific consequences here. The Minister mentioned a review. Can he set out what the timeline is? How fast can it be done? How thorough will it be? Will the Government undertake to accept any recommendations or changes that are suggested? Secondly, there have been a few comments about the rights of a child, which are obviously important, but there are also the rights of the victims to consider. If there are, sadly, future incidents such as this, and if the Government go ahead and lower the voting age to 16, does that then mean—and this is not a political point—that a 16 year-old is considered to be an adult, or is a 16 year-old who is able to vote still a child?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

On that latter point, the Government’s legal binding for this potential area of policy is signing up to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. We are determined by the convention that is signed, so that any change in the voting age would not impact on the convention unilaterally by the United Kingdom as a whole.

The noble Lord mentioned the inquiry. I hope he understands that this relates partly to the speed of the events of last week, with a guilty plea and the sentencing on Thursday. With the sentencing having taken place, we want to establish the inquiry that my right honourable friend has mentioned, but we want to take time for three reasons and in three areas. We want to take time to consult the families to ensure that they understand what is happening and that they are brought onboard, because the victims are not just the children who died but their relatives. We have a coroner’s inquest, which is ongoing, and we need to consult the coroner on these matters. We have to ensure that the chair has the right skills for this inquiry, and that is not going to be a quick, easy fix. Therefore, much as I would like to give the noble Lord an easy answer on the timescale, I say to him that I will bring back to this House at some point, in a Written Statement or on the Floor of the House, the details of that inquiry, but as yet we are working through those things. We want to make sure that we get it right. We want the families not only to feel ownership of the inquiry but to understand its objectives and terms of reference, to have contributed to them and to have confidence in the chair that we ultimately select.

West Midlands Combined Authority (Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024

Lord Gascoigne Excerpts

Wednesday 13th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, as a resident of Birmingham, a few weeks ago a publication called the Birmingham Champion came through my front door. My noble friend Lord Bach referred to the Mayor of the West Midlands as a Conservative. He and I know that he is a Conservative because we take an interest in these matters. The Birmingham Champion is all about the mayor. The one word that is missing from it is “Conservative”, except for one mention—I must be frank about this. With my best spectacles on and under a bright light, I find that the printer’s imprint says, “On behalf of the West Midlands Conservative Association”, but there is no other mention of the Conservative Party. There are no less than seven pictures of the mayor and six stories where he claims the credit for saving the European championship, a training revolution with 100,000 new jobs, bus passenger numbers rising and routes protected. I used to be chairman of the bus company. I had not realised that the mayor had so much power.

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

I hate to have to do this, but I ask the noble Lord to pay attention to what is in the Companion about the use of props when giving speeches. It is not advised. With respect, can he please give his speech—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

Order. I am quoting what is in the Companion.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

I need no lectures from the party opposite about propriety. I have been in this Chamber for a lot longer than the noble Lord. Can he sit down and hear me?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

With respect, order. I am not giving a lecture from the Conservative Party Benches but about what is in this book—which is not written by the Conservative Party. Please, bear with me. In chapter 4 of the Companion, which is not written by any political party, paragraph 4.19 says:

“Members should not bring into the Chamber … books and newspapers”.


I do not mind the noble Lord making his points but, with respect, please do not do this.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

The noble Lord has wasted quite a few minutes telling me that. It is not a newspaper; it is a publication on behalf of the Conservative Party, but I will cite it from memory: seven different pictures of the mayor and six stories for which he claims credit —over which the mayor has little power, but that has not stopped him. Now he wants to take on the police and crime commissioner’s role. I ask noble Lords how he can fit that role in given all his other duties.

I remind the party opposite, particularly the Minister, that the Labour police and crime commissioner was elected in a democratic election in 2021. The proposals from the Government to merge the two jobs are typical of their attitude towards democracy. When it comes to national elections, the Government insist, with no evidence to back it up, that identification must be provided. When it comes to elections in this city, they change the system. They cannot win in a PR system, so they insist on first past the post. This, in the West Midlands, is just another example of their cavalier behaviour regarding democracy.

I repeat that I do not believe that the mayor and the crime commissioner are roles that should be combined. The mayor insists that the West Midlands Police being in special measures is somehow the fault of the police and crime commissioner. Both sides of this House know full well that the police and crime commissioner has no operational control over the police force. That the police force is in special measures is in no way related to the capabilities of the police and crime commissioner anyway.

What worries me about this power grab on behalf of the Conservative Party is where we will go as far as the West Midlands is concerned if the jobs are combined and the police and crime commissioner finds that he does not have the time or space to do the mayoral role as well. Obviously, given that the Government have already overthrown—or intend to overthrow—the result of an election, the answer is not very far.

I have a vision of the future so far as the West Midlands is concerned. I do not know whether the West Midlands Police band is still in existence, but given the propensity for publicity of the outgoing mayor, I can imagine that band, if it exists, marching down Broad Street in Birmingham, led by the mayor and police and crime commissioner in his best uniform banging a big drum to a patriotic tune—“Lillibullero” perhaps—and blowing his own trumpet in the way that only he can.

This is a power grab; it ought to be resisted, and I will be supporting my noble friend’s amendment. I am grateful for the reference to the Companion from the noble Lord opposite. When he has been here a few more years, he might know better.