European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Report: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 8th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, before the noble Lords, Lord Howarth and Lord Forsyth, tell us that we are frustrating the will of the people, it may be appropriate to remind them of the arguments that the leave campaign made before the referendum for leaving the customs union and the single market. We had to leave the customs union because, if we stayed in, we could not negotiate those different free trade agreements that we would make independently with India, China, the United States and many others, which would give us better conditions than we had had, constrained as we were by being a member of the European Union. They said that we had to leave the single market because we had to get rid of so many of these constricting regulations that bound the British economy and which we could be free of when we left. I wish to suggest that neither of those arguments now holds.

The Government have so far spent well over half a billion pounds on the Department for International Trade, and the Treasury, as the newspapers reported this morning, has decided that that is getting to be too expensive for the value that is being produced, which, after all, is very low. Liam Fox has travelled the world several times—someone told me the other day that he has travelled half the distance between here and the moon so far—and has achieved remarkably little. A number of countries have made it quite clear that they are not prepared to offer us anything better than we would get as a member of the European Union. Our hopes that we have a wonderful free trade partner in the United States do not appear to be assisted by President Trump’s present approach to foreign economic relations. Those who still support a hard leave, such as Jacob Rees-Mogg, are reduced to attacking business as being part of Project Fear when business says that its interests are about to be damaged so badly.

On deregulation, we have heard increasingly from members and supporters of the Government, including those on the Front Bench at present, that we do not want to deregulate—that we want to maintain the high standards of regulation. I have not even heard anyone suggest recently that we should get rid of the working time directive. If that is the case, the reason why we want to leave the single market has also evaporated. The Minister earlier this afternoon suggested that, as an independent country, we could mirror EU regulations by passing, on our own, the same regulations the European Union has just passed. That is wonderful parliamentary sovereignty, isn’t it—jumping in behind, taking the rules and saying, “Gosh, look, we’re doing it on our own”? Geoffrey Howe, a far greater Foreign Secretary than the present incumbent, used to talk about the gains to Britain of the single market: that we would be sharing sovereignty and taking part in decisions about common regulations. Outside the single market we will be taking the rules others have given us and pretending that we are a sovereign country.

The Minister suggested earlier this afternoon that the amendments in question would introduce confusion and uncertainty. I suggest to the Minister that most of us think that that describes the Government’s current position. Indeed, I took part in a radio discussion on Sunday morning with someone whom I imagine is quite a good friend of his—Nigel Farage—who agreed with me that the Government’s current negotiations with the European Union are a total mess. That is the relatively widespread set of opinions from a range of different views around the world. Then, we are faced with the Daily Mail this morning, in which the Foreign Secretary is rubbishing the Prime Minister’s views. If that had ever happened during the coalition Government —if a Liberal Democrat Cabinet member had rubbished the Prime Minister—there would have been a government crisis. But we apparently have such a weak and unstable Government that they totter along from one thing to another, unable to decide what they are doing.

My question to the Minister and to noble Lords who are about to speak is: given that the arguments the leave campaign made in that hard-fought and narrowly won referendum have now evaporated, what are the arguments for staying out of the customs union and single market?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I feel sometimes in this House that one has wandered into the film “Groundhog Day”; one hears the same arguments over and over again. I thought I might actually address the Bill.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Alli, that I thought we were debating the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill which, on my reading, simply seeks to ensure that we have in place the necessary legal framework when we leave the European Union, which the other place voted for overwhelmingly when it agreed that we would give notice under Article 50. I have no idea why an amendment about membership of the EEA has any relevance whatever to the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Alli, said, it is the job of this House to ask the House of Commons to think again: but to think again about the legislation we are actually debating, not policy matters which Members of this House do not agree with. That is what the noble Lord is doing.

For brass neck, the noble Lord really takes the prize when he stands up to criticise the Government for not being clear about what they want to achieve. They are pretty clear about it: they want a negotiation which will ensure the best deal for our country. That is not helped by the noble Lords, Lord Alli and Lord Mandelson, and others who are seeking to undermine their negotiating position by passing amendments of this kind.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

In a second. It is not helping at all to be giving the impression that this House has a different view from the elected House of Commons.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

In a second. My noble friend has quite a lot to say, and I am sure I will give way to him in a moment.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

If the noble Lord, Lord Alli, is concerned about the Government’s position, I remind him that the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, helpfully reminded the House that over 200 people voted to join the EEA. The noble Lord pointed out that that was on a three-line whip in the House of Commons. What he did not say was that it was defeated in that House, as was membership of the customs union. What on earth are we, in this unelected House, doing asking the House of Commons to think again?

[A noble Lord]

Our job.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord says that we are doing our job. Our job is to address this Bill, not to pursue—

[Lord Kinnock]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. The figure which I used, accurately, was 292, which is slightly over 200. The margin of defeat of that amendment was very small—about nine votes. I was demonstrating the very strong body of opinion, in the elected House, in favour of the principle set down in my noble friend’s amendment. The noble Lord’s familiarity with the Bill should have shown him that, when we are discussing the matter of the EEA, we are completely consistent with the proposals of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, which covers our membership of the European Economic Area. Consequently, to try to ensure that we leave the European Union in good order—similar to the phrase that he used—it is surely utterly relevant and entirely proper for this revising House to say to the House of Commons: “Since the Bill provides for reference to the EEA, we are completely consistent with our purpose and the purpose of democracy in asking for further consideration of the arguments in favour of sustaining our goods economy, our service economy and the unity of our nation”.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his guidance on the procedures and nature of this House. He will be well aware of the importance of brief interventions at this stage in the consideration of a Bill. There were indeed 290 votes on a three-line whip, but what is the whip on the Labour Benches today? You are all being told to abstain. For the noble Lord, Lord Alli, to say that the Government’s position is confused, when not many months ago, as the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, pointed out, the Labour Party had a three-line whip on the EEA but is now urging people not to vote for this amendment—

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

As this has been raised, it is only fair—for my colleagues more than for the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth—to make it absolutely clear that the three-line whip was on an issue about whether that decision should be taken by Parliament or not. Heidi Alexander, who proposed the new clause 22, said that:

“New clause 22 would not decide on the substantive question of EEA membership, but it would guarantee that at a future moment the House could have its say”.—[Official Report, 15/11/17; col. 426.]


That is, of course, what we have done with the meaningful vote. It is appropriate that accuracy is put before this House.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I note that the noble Baroness has not said that her colleagues have been asked to abstain on this matter.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

They have indeed.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

So, from having a three-line whip, and arguing for the importance of the European Economic Area, we now have a “Don’t know” position on the Front Bench. And the noble Lord, Lord Alli, has the cheek to say that the Government are confused about their position; just as the Opposition have been confused about a customs union or the customs union. The truth of the matter is that a number of noble Lords wish to reverse the decision of the British people.

The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, asked me to comment on the position in the referendum campaign. I campaigned in the referendum campaign and went to a number of public meetings. I heard the argument being made that, if we were to join the EEA and be out of the European Union, we would have “fax diplomacy”. We would have no say in the regulations and that was the worst of all worlds. I now find that the people who were advancing that argument are now pretending that it is in the interests of the country: it certainly is not.

The noble Lord, Lord Alli, asked: “What are we getting for our money?”. As my noble friend has pointed out repeatedly, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. There will be no money paid if we do not have a negotiation which is in the interests of the United Kingdom. By suggesting that that money will be paid, and that the Government cannot get a good negotiation, he is undermining the position of his country, and of the Government, in vital negotiations which, as speeches on all sides have pointed out, are of great importance to the economy as a whole.

[Lord Alli]

I have been in this House for a little while—about 20 years—and I understand that this is an important issue. There has been a civility in this House which has made it a special place to have a debate. I hope that, whatever the feelings of noble Lords, the rest of this debate can be conducted, as is our tradition, with kindness, care and consideration of other people’s views. I know that the noble Lord has strong views, but if we could take it down a notch it would allow us all to have the debate we want in the spirit to which this House has become accustomed.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am sure that the noble Lord was not among those jeering when I was trying to make my points earlier and that his advice to his colleagues will be well received. He said, “Take it down a notch”: he is proposing that we fly in the face of the biggest democratic vote in our history and that, as unelected Peers, we ask the House of Commons to consider a matter which has been considered before and not concentrate on what we are here for, which is improving the legislation in front of us.

The noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, said that this is sort of connected to the Bill. There will be an opportunity for us to consider this matter at the end of the negotiations. The Government have promised to bring forward legislation on the agreement and have promised a vote in both Houses on this matter.

[Viscount Hailsham]

A meaningful vote.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My noble friend says “A meaningful vote” from a sedentary position. By that he means a vote to reverse what the British people voted for in a referendum. There will be a vote on the negotiation and on the agreements which have been reached. I urge this House not to undermine the position of the Government in their negotiations or that of the Prime Minister by seeking to argue that her objectives cannot be achieved.

[Lord Cormack]

I am grateful, and at this point an intervention is appropriate. If anybody is undermining the Government at the moment, it is the Foreign Secretary rubbishing the Prime Minister. My noble friend, who is a brilliant debater—I am delighted to be able to debate with him—is arguing for a cause but completely missing the point. I ask him just to reflect: what sort of example are we being given by a Cabinet that is rent asunder by the Foreign Secretary, the second most important member of the Government, rubbishing the Prime Minister in the Daily Mail?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I know that my noble friend is not very keen on the Foreign Secretary, and that he has made a number of attacks on Boris Johnson in this House, including calling on the Government to sack him. I point out that Boris Johnson played an important part in the referendum campaign and that the people voted—

[Lord Patten of Barnes (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

In a second. Can I just deal with this intervention? I did not think that we had interventions on this scale on Report.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

On Report—I am just referring to Standing Orders.

The Foreign Secretary set out his case, which was not to be in the customs union or in the single market, and the British people voted overwhelmingly. This House is seeking to undermine that vote, and in so doing it is damaging its own standing and reputation in the country.

[Lord Patten of Barnes]

My noble friend has just made, unusually, an unforced error, as they say in tennis. Did he not—perhaps he did not—agree strongly with the Foreign Secretary during the referendum campaign, when Boris Johnson made it absolutely clear that he was in favour of us staying in the single market?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

No, I did not, and I was not aware that he had done that. I do not think that my noble friend and I would be at loggerheads or in disagreement if I said that the Foreign Secretary does not always get everything right. However, he argues passionately for the democratic mandate which was given to this Parliament and to this Government, and which this Government are determined to carry out.

These amendments are doing no good whatever to this place or to our ability to get the best deal for the British people. If my noble friend Lady Verma said that, like the Prime Minister, she has in all conscience to get the best deal for the country, I suggest that the difference between her and the Prime Minister is that the Prime Minister is elected and the responsibility is hers, and my noble friend should give her her loyalty and support.

[Lord Bilimoria]

My Lords, I have put my name to these amendments, and I will start by putting this in context. When you make a change in business, you do so if there is a burning platform—if you have to make the change—or to make a change for the better, to improve things. Now we keep hearing about equivalence, and about whether we will be able to get terms as good as those we have now when we leave. To follow on from what the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, we have heard comments from other members of the Conservative Party, and not just Boris Johnson. Jacob Rees-Mogg has accused the Business Secretary, Greg Clark, of,

“promoting ‘Project Fear’ by saying that thousands of jobs were at risk if Britain did not minimise friction in trade”.

That is the Business Secretary saying that, and it is called Project Fear. Boris Johnson has said that the proposals for a customs partnership after Brexit are “crazy” and that it will not work.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 18th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

Front Bench!

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. I will keep my remarks very brief. Whoever sent me the briefing for Labour Lords, I thank them and I am happy to pass it on to any other Member of the House who would like to see it. I found it extremely useful because I was rather puzzled by this amendment and others in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and was also puzzled when looking at the Amendment Paper to see a number of other amendments supported by noble Lords from all parties. On reading the briefing for Labour Lords, the explanation became clear. What we are witnessing here is an attempt to create division and confusion in the House of Commons with a view to preventing Brexit going ahead. That is what is going on, and it is carefully orchestrated, as set out in the briefing to Labour Lords.

I was puzzled by this amendment because, like the noble Countess, Lady Mar, I wondered what it had to do with the Bill. The Bill is a simple, technical Bill which sets out to ensure that European law is translated into UK law when we leave the European Union. The amendment makes the commitment that Clause 1, which is the repeal of the European Communities Act, which was central to what the British people voted for, should be subject to some conditions about a customs union, or whatever. The Bill has nothing whatever to do with a customs union. What is going on here is an attempt to get the House of Commons to look at this issue again and create division among those people who wish to support the views of the British people.

I say to colleagues in this House: have a care with what we are doing. We are an unelected House, and this amendment and the other amendments are part of a campaign which is putting Peers against the people—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Yes, it is. The people set out very clearly that they wished to leave the European Union, which meant leaving the customs union as well. As my noble friend Lord Lawson pointed out, it was central to the whole campaign. What is going on here is an exercise by remainers in this House—who are the majority—who refuse to accept the verdict of the British people, and I believe they are playing with fire. I hope that, on reflection, the amendment will not be carried.

Perhaps I may just pick up one point which was made—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

This is a debate. If I may, I will pick up one point as a point of information to my noble friend Lord Ridley, which was the suggestion that the customs union does not discriminate against African countries. Why is it that Germany exports more coffee than the whole of Africa? Answer: because there is a tariff barrier on any finished products. If African countries wish to export coffee beans, that is fine, but if they wish to turn them into an added-value product and create jobs and industries, they are subject to, I think, a 7% tariff. I would have thought that the noble Lord, with all his experience, would have known that, but it is typical of the way in which this campaign has been organised by the remainers: misleading the British public and trying to overturn the decision which the people made with the full knowledge of everything involved.

The noble Lord says, “Calm down”, but I believe in this House. I believe it has an important duty to carry out and it is quite outrageous that people are trying to use this House to overturn the wishes of the British people.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I am so delighted that I gave way to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, because he has exposed that it is not the Labour Party, nor is it this House, spreading disarray over Brexit: the Government are doing that quite well by themselves in the other House. We are saying that the Bill is a part of what started with Article 50: looking at how we leave the European Union. As we know, a part of what will come at the end will be our future relationship with the European Union. That is why it is absolutely correct that this House discusses it in this Bill.

On the particular amendment—of course the meat of it is Amendment 4 rather than Amendment 1—it is right for us to cover it, and it is right for us to support it today. It is right for the country. It is demanded, as we have heard, by industry and by trade unions. It is vital for the future of Ireland—although not repeated again today, we have heard that before. It will also get the Government off a hook of their own making: their adoption of the red line of leaving the customs union, which was taken without any impact assessment, without any consultation with business, investors, farmers, exporters or importers, and when the Prime Minister had a Commons majority. Come election night in 2017, soon after 2 am, David Davis admitted on air that the Government might have lost their mandate to exit the customs union. As he said,

“that’s what we put in front of the people, we’ll see tomorrow whether they’ve accepted that or not”.

They did not. There was no majority for that red line. There was no mandate for a hard Brexit.

This amendment is good for the governance of this country. It reflects the rejection of that part of the Government’s manifesto. It would save the economy £24 billion over the next 15 years, which ejection from the customs union would otherwise cost. The amendment would allow full access to European markets, no new impediments to trade, no reductions in standards, no tariffs on goods traded with the EU and common tariffs on goods imported from other countries. This presents no problems for increasing trade outwith the EU; as the noble Lord, Lord Patten, has already said, Germany exports more than we do to China. Even Liam Fox admitted that a customs union self-evidently does not prevent us from increasing bilateral trade with countries such as China. The CBI, as we have heard, stresses that the EU is businesses’ preferred market by far. Three-quarters of exporting companies are selling into the EU and the vast majority of them are SMEs. We have already heard the Japanese ambassador warning that Japan’s firms will leave Britain if Brexit makes it unprofitable to stay—that is a real risk with new tariffs, if we are outside the customs union. As we have heard, there is a high level of integration between the UK and EU supply chains, so checks, delays, and VAT charges all challenge the bottom line. Rules of origin, which we have heard about, could cost up to 15% of trade.

There are also physical challenges. The British Ports Association says that, with 95% of imports and exports handled by its ports, if we have anything like the customs checks that we now have on non-EU imports, it could take 45 minutes per lorry. A quarter of trade between the UK and continental Europe goes through the Channel Tunnel, as indeed does most of the Republic of Ireland’s road freight into mainland Europe. Folkestone—there is a bad joke coming—would look more like stone than folks. We had to have one—I warned your Lordships it was bad.

Last year, the CBI, the Institute of Directors, the British Chambers of Commerce, the EEF and the Federation of Small Businesses all called for tariff-free goods trade between the UK and the EU, in preference to the Government’s slightly weasel words of “as tariff-free as possible”. The CBI stresses that frictionless trade with the EU is businesses’ number one priority and that some form of a customs union is necessary to ensure frictionless trade and no hardening of the Irish border. We have heard already about Airbus, Boeing and Rolls-Royce all saying that a customs union would best support the free flow of goods. Ford, the biggest car manufacturer, argues that any sort of border restrictions or customs friction will be an inhibitor for us continuing to trade the way we have done. The Food and Drink Federation wants a tariff-free customs union. And so it goes on.

We have heard it from industry, we hear it from trade unions, we have heard it from Northern Ireland, and indeed southern Ireland, and it is the same for our regions. Those particularly identified by the Government’s impact assessments will be of interest to the Minister: the north-east and the West Midlands. Those are the areas that will be most affected by Brexit if we have more customs and less trade. They are major exporters of cars, food and other goods.

This amendment is not about us playing politics; it is not about us unscrambling Brexit: it is about how we leave the EU. It is about our future relationship once we are outside. All it asks is for the Government to seek to negotiate our participation in a customs union with the EU. We will support this for the sake of the economy and for the sake of the country.

Brexit: British Citizens

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 29th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

When we have a deal, which I am confident we will get, we will come back to this House, we will put the option to both Houses and we will report back to the public, including young people.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Should we not congratulate my noble friend on the brilliant job that he has done during Committee on the Bill, such that the opposition spokesman on foreign affairs, Mrs Emily Thornberry, said that the Opposition will probably vote for the deal when it is put before the Commons?

[Lord Callanan]

I thank my noble friend for his comments, but let us see how Report goes before we get the congratulations in too early. Yes, Emily Thornberry’s comments yesterday were interesting, as were Keir Starmer’s at the weekend when he said:

“I don’t think there is any realistic prospect of”,


Article 50 “being revoked”. On the referendum, he said:

“Having asked the electorate for a view by way of the referendum, we have to respect the result”.


I never thought I would hear myself say it, but on this occasion I agree with the Labour Party.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Committee: 10th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I am most grateful to my noble friend. On that basis, did the Liberals lose their mandate to call for a second referendum?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cormack]

Yes, but it is therefore contradictory to have a specific date written in the Bill because the Government are answerable to Parliament and Parliament is sovereign, as we have said many times over the past few weeks; it seems like an eternity. The one message we should convey is that we should not seek to tie the hands of those who are negotiating. We will do so if we put a particular date in the Bill. Failure to reach agreement by that date will then be trumpeted abroad as a failure. None of us wants that. There must be flexibility.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

With respect, my noble friend has not dealt with the point made by my noble friend Lord Lamont. He says that Parliament must have sovereignty but the House of Commons amended the Bill to allow Ministers to change the order if necessary. That would require the approval of Parliament, so what is he talking about?

[Lord Cormack]

Very simply, I am talking about the fact that the Bill, as it is before the Committee, has a specific date in it. The purpose of these amendments—tabled by my noble friend the Duke of Wellington and others—has been to give the flexibility that the Bill does not allow at the moment. I am surprised if my noble friend cannot see that. I am not arguing against the prudent and excellent speech made by my noble friend Lord Tugendhat. He made the point as effectively as anybody could. Therefore, let us try to unite on Report around an amendment that will give the additional flexibility that changes in the other place have not given.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

It is not absurd at all. It is sensible because those people are taxpayers—at least most of them are. The noble Lord sniggers; he is an expert sniggerer. These people are taxpayers who are contributing to our society. As I said on a couple of previous occasions, there used to be a phrase, “No taxation without representation”. Those people are being taxed and they deserve the opportunity to have their say.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I was timing it to see how long it would be before the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, rose.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am intrigued by the idea of the noble Lord that anyone who is a taxpayer should have a vote. Does he think that every American or Chinese person—or anyone from any part of the world—who lives here and pays taxes should have a vote? It is a ridiculous proposition.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

A lot of Commonwealth citizens are able to vote. A lot of people have a vote—but these are European Union citizens talking about our membership of the European Union. It seems to me to be a logical proposition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord was advancing the proposition that if you pay taxes here, you should have a vote. Does he now recognise that that is a silly argument?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I was answering a question. I was talking about European Union citizens who are taxpayers here—and I think most Members of this House understood that.

One of the blights of the referendum, apart from the facts of the flawed franchise and the misinformation, was the differential result. In replying to this, everyone tells me, “It was a referendum for the whole United Kingdom”. Nevertheless, some of the problems created were caused by that differential result. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, will know that in Scotland, this is fuelling nationalism and giving greater purchase to the SNP’s arguments. In Northern Ireland—I will not go into the problems because my noble friend Lord Hain articulated them brilliantly in a previous debate—there are real problems and absolutely no solutions put forward by the Government. It was a differential vote. London was overwhelmingly in favour of European Union membership, and one of the most insidious and difficult problems—which is not being talked about very much but will cause huge problems—is Gibraltar. It voted overwhelmingly—98% or 99%—to stay in the European Union, yet we will be dragging it out against its will if we go ahead. That will cause tremendous problems.

Like other noble Lords, I would argue—as I have done before—that this a parliamentary democracy and Parliament must make the decision. I did that in relation to this advisory referendum. As noble Lords—including the noble Lord, Lord Newby—said, Parliament should decide, but I accept the very strong argument that, since we went down this road on a referendum, we need to change tack by using one. I hope that the franchise will be better; I hope that European Union citizens and youngsters—16 and 17 year-olds—will be allowed to vote. On Friday, I went to George Heriot’s School in Edinburgh—a private school—and took part in a debate. I argued that the charitable status—I am nothing if not foolhardy—of private schools should be withdrawn. I was defeated, which will come as no surprise to Members. I did get 18 votes, by the way, which shows that there are some intelligent people in private schools—but I was overwhelmingly defeated. Afterwards, I said, “I think I should’ve come in and argued that we should remain in the European Union”—and I got overwhelming support. The youngsters know where their future lies. It is affecting them. I say with no disrespect, looking around the Chamber, that there are not many noble Lords here who will be affected for as long as those young people. So I hope they will be able to have a vote as well.

This argument is a very strong one. We are not talking about a second referendum; we are talking about a completely different thing. The noble Baroness opposite asked what the alternative would be if we rejected the negotiated deal. The alternative is very clear: the status quo. We are members of the European Union and we are doing well as a member of the European Union— although, day by day, with the prospect of Brexit, we are suffering some of the effects of it. The sooner we get out of this Brexit—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, I put my name to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, when it was Amendment 181. I would have put my name to his amendment today but I did not have the opportunity to do so over the weekend.

In my speech at Second Reading I agreed with others that this is not an appropriate vehicle to require a further referendum on our leaving the European Union. However, I said that I would support any amendments necessary to ensure that a further referendum would be among the options in Parliament’s meaningful vote at the conclusion of the negotiations. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, is such an amendment.

I have feared throughout that the choice the Government intend to give Parliament at the conclusion of the negotiations is, “this agreement or no agreement”. I am sorry to say that what the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, said in our debate last Wednesday confirmed that this is indeed the Government’s intention. I hope that he will tell me I am wrong, but I think it was clear from what he said last week that that is what the Government propose to do. Of course, we must all hope that the agreement that emerges from the negotiations will be good for the UK—but the Prime Minister has famously said that no agreement would be better than a bad agreement. It would be entirely wrong if the only choice given to Parliament at the end of the negotiations was between an agreement, however bad, or no agreement at all. I know that the Prime Minister and the Government feel that they have an instruction from the people to take Britain out of the EU—but I cannot believe that a bad agreement is a correct interpretation of the wishes of a majority of the people as expressed in the referendum. If Parliament judges the outcome of the negotiations to be bad, a better alternative must be to think again before we drive the nation over a cliff.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Newby, I cannot get out of my mind my noble friend Lord Lisvane’s aunts, whom he described so graphically at Second Reading. If, having voted to go to cinema, they find that the two films available are ones they do not want to see, the only sensible course must be to think again about going to the cinema at all. If that is true for my noble friend’s aunts on a Saturday evening, I suggest that it is certainly true for the nation as a whole in one of the most important decisions that we will have to make in our generation.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

To take the cinema analogy further, does the noble Lord not think that if the European Commission thought that there was a possibility of a second referendum, it would be likely to put something on at the cinema that would be even scarier for the maiden aunts?

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

My Lords, I had expected that intervention. If that is the EU’s tactic, it has plenty of ways of doing it, and plenty of motive for doing it, other than just producing a bad agreement.

As others have said, it is quite clear that, since the people voted in a national referendum to leave the European Union, that decision could be reversed only by the people. That would require either a further referendum or a general election in which the people had the opportunity to elect a Government with an explicitly different mandate. In those circumstances, I suspect the Government themselves would prefer a further referendum.

Ever since the referendum, I have argued that the British people are entitled to a further say when the terms of the UK’s departure are known. I still hold that view, but that is not the case which I am arguing today. The purpose of this amendment is simply to ensure that a further referendum remains an option if the negotiations do not turn out as well as the Government hope.

To say that Parliament’s so-called “meaningful vote” can be a choice only between a bad agreement and no agreement would be an outrage. I shall listen carefully to what the Minister says in his reply, but I am afraid that the Government intend that the meaningful vote will be simply a binary choice between the outcome of the negotiations and no agreement. In that case, I hope that the House will support an amendment on the lines of that proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Newby—if not this evening, then on Report.

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[Viscount Hailsham]

The noble Lord is quite right and my noble friend Lord Garel-Jones was indicating this point. When my noble friend Lord Callanan constantly says that the people have spoken and we are leaving, he is wrong because ultimately it is Parliament that will decide whether we leave or not, and maybe the British people by an election. I do hope that he will stop saying, as he has been saying rather too often to my way of thinking, that the referendum is conclusive of the matter and we are leaving, whatever. That is not consistent with my understanding of the British constitution, our history or our purpose. We have a right, as Parliament, to demand that we have the decisive say, and if we think it is right, there should be another referendum on the terms then identified.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I know the affection that my noble friend has for Parliament. Could he just remind the House of the size of the majorities against having a second referendum in both Houses of Parliament?

[Viscount Hailsham]

I think my noble friend, for whom I have the greatest respect, tempts me, and I am going to be tempted. I do not believe that there is a parliamentary majority for Brexit, either in this House or in that House. I certainly do not think that there is a parliamentary majority for a hard Brexit. I think that if Members in that place were to consult their consciences, they would vote to remain within the European Union. That is what we need to give them the opportunity to do.

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[Lord Bilimoria]

I hear everything that my noble colleague has said and I respect him greatly. All I am reflecting is what I have seen when I have asked hundreds if not thousands of young people in the country. Of course they can change their minds. Of course they did not turn out to vote two years ago, and they regret it dearly. I think that if they had a chance now they would turn out in droves, and I guarantee noble Lords that almost 100% of them would vote to remain. What is more, what is worrying and why these amendments are required is that we are being told by the Government that we will get a meaningful say, but we do not know what that meaningful say is. We are being told by the Government that if there is no deal, we will still have to leave. What we are not being told is, if we are not happy with a bad deal or a no-deal, that the people should have a chance to change their minds. Will the Minister confirm that this is the case; that whatever happens—deal, bad deal, no deal—we have to leave and people do not get another say? This is nonsense, because it is unacceptable and undemocratic.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

On this theme the noble Lord is pursuing that people have the right to change their minds, how many times do they have the right to change their minds? If, for example, we had another referendum and it was narrowly one way, would people like me be entitled to argue, “Actually, do you know what, we can do a better deal, and we should have another referendum”? We would have a neverendum of neverendums—is that what the noble Lord is arguing? It is clearly ridiculous.

[Lord Bilimoria]

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has made a point that is always made when I make this argument. But this is not a normal situation. This is a decision that is permanent, which will affect generations to come. It is a decision that has not been made with the full information. It is a decision where already in two years so much has come to light. It is a decision that depends on so many negotiations. Yes, we need another referendum so that people, with the full information, can have the option to make a proper decision, including changing their minds.

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[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, this whole process began with a referendum and it should therefore end with a referendum. What is very different about the referendum that occurred in June 2016 on our status within Europe compared with other referenda is that, for example, as my noble friend Lord Wigley will recall, when we campaigned on the same side of the argument in the Welsh referendum in 1997—and that was the case in Scotland as well—people knew exactly what they were voting for and against. If they were voting for an assembly, they knew what they were getting. If they were voting against, they knew it was the status quo. The same applied in the Scottish referendum. The same applied in the referendum in 2011 on the alternative vote. People knew then that they were getting a form of electoral reform if they voted for it, as I did, or they were voting for the status quo—the first past the post system—as in the end it turned out the majority did.

In this case people knew what they were voting against—they were voting against the European Union, to leave the European Union—but they had no idea what they were voting for because that was not spelled out. That is what makes this very different indeed. For example, did people know that Gibraltar would be put in an impossible predicament, as my noble friend Lord Foulkes pointed out? Did people know that the Irish border was likely to end up a hard border given the Government’s policy? There is a whole series of issues. Did people in the south Wales valleys, whose doors I knocked on by the hundred and who voted by a majority to leave, know that as a result the Government would have the opportunity for a power grab to reverse the process of devolution, as they are now seeking to do?

I clarify that this is not a second referendum. This is not an attempt to overturn the first referendum’s outcome. This is a referendum on the final deal. That is very different from seeking to rerun the first referendum. This is saying, “You now have the deal in front of you” —or no deal, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler, mentioned—“This is now your opportunity to say, ‘We started this process by a referendum. We want to end this process by a referendum and make our decision’”. Why are those who are opposed to a referendum on the final deal so afraid of the people speaking? What is so undemocratic about giving the people a final say, just as they had a say at the very beginning of this process?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, the noble Lord asked a question. It would not matter what kind of deal we got if we had a second referendum, the noble Lord would vote for us to remain in the European Union. Every single one of the speakers we have heard, and most of the people who support a second referendum, reject the decision of the British people to leave the European Union.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, insists on calling it a second referendum. It is not. If he is so furled to numerology, it is actually a third referendum because we had one in 1975.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The intention is clear. I am shocked, actually, at the noble Lord. He says that he is a unionist but in the debates on the Bill he has propounded the view that the Scottish Parliament should have a veto on legislation passed by this Parliament, and now he is arguing that it is important that people have the opportunity to reconsider their decision after a referendum in which a commitment was made to implement the result. How is that going to play in Scotland, where we have a Scottish Government and a Parliament where a majority voted for independence in a referendum? The words that the noble Lord keeps trotting out—that there should be an opportunity to rethink—will be played back by the nationalists and people who want to break up the United Kingdom. This is irresponsible.

We all know that at the moment both Houses of this Parliament are held with a degree of contempt by the electorate. How are they going to react if, having voted in the biggest vote in our history, this Parliament were to decide to reverse it? There is no danger of that because both this House and the House of Commons voted overwhelmingly to reject the idea of having another referendum.

[Lord Newby]

I am following the noble Lord with great interest. He says that the people will be outraged if they were to be asked again. Why then, when they are asked in opinion polls do they say time after time that they want a vote on the outcome? Why do over two-thirds of all Conservative voters who were recently polled say that they want a vote on the outcome?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I have not seen the particular poll that the noble Lord refers to but I saw the poll in the general election, when his party campaigned on the basis that we should have a second referendum and it was utterly destroyed—so much so that it now has to use this House as a platform to put forward its policies, because it is so beleaguered in the House of Commons.

[Lord Garel-Jones]

Is my noble friend saying that the Supreme Court is mistaken in this matter?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I thought I heard my noble friend argue not a few moments ago about the supremacy of Parliament. I believe in the supremacy of Parliament and that judicial interference is one of the worst aspects of our membership of the European Union, and another reason why we should get out of it. I give way to my noble friend Lord Patten of Barnes.

[Lord Patten of Barnes]

I am very grateful to my noble friend and am always keen to build bridges with him. Given what he has said about the importance of the supremacy of Parliament, which happens to be my view, and about the extent to which referendums are an assault on the way in which we have done things for decades in this country, would he support a free vote in Parliament when the outcome of the negotiations is known?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I have always regarded my membership of this place as giving me a free vote. Members of this House are not whipped to the extent that they are—

[Lord Patten of Barnes]

What about the vote in another place? Is my noble friend in favour, as Sir John Major suggested the other day, of having a free vote when the terms of the deal are known? Given what he has said already about the majesty of parliamentary democracy, I imagine that he would be keen on that.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

What I am keen on is people delivering on their promises. Not only did we promise in our manifesto that we would implement whatever the people decided in the referendum, but something like £8 million of our money was spent on putting leaflets through every door in the country, saying “What you decide we will implement”. The Government of the day promised to do that. Not only that, we stood in the general election with a clear manifesto commitment. So no, I would not be in favour of giving a free vote on a matter where we made a manifesto commitment, nor am I in favour of this House trying to overturn such commitments given by elected Governments.

All this is a distraction. It is the last gasp of the remainers. If the result had gone the other way, they would not be standing up making speeches “Oh well, it is a matter for Parliament and we cannot possibly accept the result of the referendum”.

[A noble Lord]

You would.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord says that I would. I would certainly not be doing that but he believes that I would, hence the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, that we should have another referendum because people have the right to change their mind. In arguing that I would make that case, they are making the case that having successive referendums will only encourage more.

I have one final point. It is a great irony, is it not, that those parties which are keen to have more referenda—the Scottish nationalists and the Liberals—are the ones which do not accept the results of referenda when we have them?

[Lord Bilimoria]

Perhaps I may challenge one point that the noble Lord made, which was really worrying. He said that one of the reasons that people voted to leave the European Union was because of the control from courts and judges. Yet the decision on Article 50 was not made by the European Court of Justice; it was made by our Supreme Court across the square and everyone should respect that. The language that he used reminds me of the Daily Mail’s headline, “Enemies of the people”. Is that what we have come to as a country and as a Parliament? Do we not respect our judiciary, which is the finest in the world?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, has made a great leap from what I said to what the Daily Mail said.

As to the point about judicial involvement, I will give one example. When I was a Minister of State in the Department of Employment, the European Commission decided to implement the working time directive. We thought that employment law was a matter that required unanimity, but it did so as a health and safety measure in order to have it implemented by qualified majority. The advice that I had as a Minister was that that was illegal and wrong, but I was also told that there was no point in my going to the European court because it has a duty to promote the acquis and I would lose. I do not know whether that advice was correct.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

Does the noble Lord recognise that the transfer from unanimity to a qualified majority was conducted by a Government and a Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher, from the party to which he belongs? It was in the Single European Act.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, is wrong.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside (Lab)]

Address the House!

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am responding to the noble Lord’s point.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

Addressing the House is not simply a matter of courtesy. When the noble Lord turns his back, we cannot hear him as the sound is not picked up.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

From past experience, I am sure that various people would like to change places with the noble Lord.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, is quite wrong. Employment measures at that time required unanimity. The working time directive was introduced as a health and safety measure and it was argued that it was so that it would require only qualified majority voting, and we would no longer have a veto. The issue was whether it was worth going to the court to argue that that was an improper act.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

The noble Lord has misunderstood what I said, which was that the provision in the treaty that provides for qualified majority voting for health and safety was introduced with the agreement of the Government of the day, whose Prime Minister was Margaret Thatcher.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

So what? It was not a health and safety measure; it was an employment law measure. The point that I made still stands.

I hope that we will not spend any more time discussing this second referendum, which is just an attempt by people in this House, who are unelected, to subvert the decision made by the British people.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, last week we had an interesting debate on what should happen if Parliament was given a take-it-or-leave-it decision. There was considerable support for the point of view that I sought to put forward with the support of many other noble Lords, which is that we should maintain our membership, suspend Article 50 and tell the Government to try again. I believe that that is the right course because Parliament is sovereign. I believe very strongly that the plebiscite is inimical to parliamentary representative democracy. I also believe that, because Parliament is sovereign, it can make what decision it wishes. We are talking about Parliament and not about the Executive. Throughout our debates, we have had a disturbing series of illustrations that the Government believe that the Executive are supreme. It is not; it is Parliament that is supreme.

We will not have a vote tonight, because these are probing amendments. But were we to have one, I would not vote for the amendment—not because I am completely out of sympathy with many of the points that were eloquently made by the noble Lords, Lord Newby and Lord Foulkes, and by others who have spoken in the same way, but because I believe it is premature to put an amendment of this nature into this Bill at this time. It is crucial that we do not undermine, but underpin, the sovereignty of Parliament, which is what we should be doing when we come to votes on Report. There will be votes, and I am quite sure I will be supporting a number of the amendments.

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[Lord Callanan]

We want a deal with the European Union. We have said that we will negotiate for the best possible deal and then we will put that to the House in a Motion. If Parliament approves it then we will bring legislation forward to implement the deal. That is what has been said many times in the other place as well.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Does my noble friend recall that both David Cameron and the leader of the Opposition wanted to implement Article 50 within days of the referendum result? All this argument suggesting that we have somehow precipitately moved into Article 50, and that the referendum did not give a clear instruction to both the government and opposition parties, is therefore simply froth.

[Lord Callanan]

I am not sure that I would use the word “froth”, but we have had a good debate about this and I am sure we will continue to do so.

Parliament authorised our notification of withdrawal in the Article 50 Bill with a clear majority. That position was supported in the general election when we and the Labour Party both said that we would implement the results of the referendum and, in the process, obtained over 80% of the vote. The Liberal Democrats, of course, said that they would not and got 7% of the vote.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I am sorry but I think the noble Lord has slightly misunderstood the amendment. It is Amendment 150, and if he looks at it, he will see that it gives Parliament more powers than it currently has, or was envisaged. A further look will show that it is not taking anything away from Parliament. It is ensuring that Parliament gets the powers in not only a formal but a meaningful sense, such that it can make use of those powers to direct the outcome.

This is, after all, the most significant decision that Parliament will take in this period—nobody, I should imagine, could dispute that—and it is the need to do so that makes the case for the amendment. No doubt the Minister will conclude his remarks, as he habitually does—I do not criticise him for it—by asking for the amendment to be withdrawn. Might he not consider, as others have suggested, that the best thing to happen now would be for the Government to accept it?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

The noble Lord said that the referendum was not binding on Parliament. Can he deal with the point that the then Government spent almost £10 million of taxpayers’ money putting leaflets through every letterbox in the country that said, “Whatever you decide, the Government will implement”?

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I will do my best. I was not and am not a supporter of any Government—I am a Cross-Bencher—but the Government the noble Lord is talking about had a majority in the House of Commons at the time; the Government who are negotiating our withdrawal from the European Union do not have a majority of their own in the House of Commons.

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[Baroness McDonagh (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Kingsmill and I have been trying to get in on this group of amendments since the beginning of the debate. Unfortunately, the noble Baroness had a meeting with the Bank of England at 4 o’clock, and as the chair of a bank, she could not fail to go to it. I sought advice from the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, and she suggested that I should read the noble Baroness’s words into the record. I shall then make my own comments on Amendments 155 and 191.

On behalf of my noble friend Lady Kingsmill, I support Amendment 199. Many noble Lords have spoken eloquently about this amendment, which seeks to preserve our current relationship with the EU should Parliament decide not to approve the withdrawal agreement and ask the Government to go back to the negotiating table. The Brexit process has been characterised by uncertainty. We simply do not know what the final deal will look like, under what circumstances we will do business, be consumers, travel and work. We do not know what our future relationship with Europe will be, and Article 50 sets the clock ticking for when we would need answers to those questions.

This amendment seeks to ensure that the withdrawal deal put to Parliament is not a choice between a poor deal or no deal, whereby the UK would crash out of the EU and revert to WTO terms. Noble Lords have spoken about how that would be hard for our economy and for trade and services. It would, and it would also be hard for people. It is this last point, the rights of EU citizens, which I would like to touch on today. Negotiations are about the balance between what is gained and what is lost. Some of that will be quantifiable in financial terms but it will also be about culture, opportunity and identity.

My children have grown up as proud citizens of the UK and Europe. They do not question that you can be both, or that being one means diminishing the other. They have never had to question that they can travel, study, work and live across borders, and that their qualifications and skills are recognised. For them, Europe is a place of opportunities, not obstacles. When the UK leaves the EU, it is not just that generation which will lose a part of their identity and a sense of belonging, it is the UK as a whole.

I am an immigrant, brought to this country as a child from New Zealand. When I was 18 and a new undergraduate at Cambridge, I applied for a British passport to travel to Switzerland for a walking holiday with friends. I was refused on the grounds that I was not British because neither my father nor my grandfather was born in the UK. I was shocked and felt very insecure. Eventually, I obtained a New Zealand passport. On my return to the UK after my holiday, I was required to go to the purser’s office on the ferry and was questioned about my commitment to the UK by a police officer not much older than myself. I eventually received the stamp in my passport giving me indefinite right to stay. I think I have done pretty well since then.

A week ago, the House heard informed debate on amendments that sought to put the rights of EU citizens into the Bill. I welcome the fact that an agreement was reached in principle in December on EU citizens’ rights as part of the phase 1 agreement. However, as noble Lords raised last week, there remains uncertainty and anxiety for EU citizens about their position, in particular in the event of a failure to reach a withdrawal deal. Even if EU citizens’ rights are clarified in the withdrawal agreement, what if the rest of the withdrawal agreement is not a good deal for the UK and Parliament votes against it? What happens then? In those circumstances, until we are certain and ready and prepared for a successful positive future relationship with the EU, surely we should retain the status quo and relationship we have. Surely, we owe it to the EU citizens here and the generation who will have their British-European identity severed to extend Article 50 until the best deal can be reached. That is what this amendment seeks to ensure.

Speaking for myself, I support Amendments 151 and 199. I find myself in the very unusual and discombobulating circumstances of agreeing with most noble Lords on the other side of the Chamber. If noble Lords were present at this morning’s debate, they would appreciate that we are in danger of breaking out into unity across Benches and parties.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I suggest to the noble Baroness that it would save us all a great deal of time and effort in coming here if she simply read out all our speeches on our behalf, using this rather extraordinary procedure that she has embarked upon.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Kingsmill, wanted to participate earlier but had an inescapable engagement. She and her colleague, the noble Baroness, Lady McDonagh, spoke to me. I felt that, in all the circumstances, it would be in our interests because, as far as I am aware, we have not had a female contribution to this debate. It is appropriate that the noble Baroness, Lady McDonagh, be given the opportunity to express her views and, in these exceptional circumstances, to convey the views of her noble friend Lady Kingsmill.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Far be it for me to argue with my noble friend, but this is not a matter of gender, it is a matter of procedure of the House. If one is able to read out other people’s speeches without limit, it creates a most extraordinary precedent. I hope those in charge of our procedures will consider whether it is something that should be repeated.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

There is no danger that anyone would want to read the noble Lord’s speeches on his behalf, so he need not worry and we can hear more from my noble friend.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am making a perfectly serious point, and I do not think anybody has appointed the noble Lord to decide on the procedures of this House.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

We all often enjoy the speeches of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. It is not a precedent; it is a convention of this House that if someone unavoidably cannot attend, they may ask someone else to deliver their speech. That was explained at the beginning of my noble friend’s speech, which the noble Lord would have heard had he been listening. It was an unusual discourtesy for the noble Lord to intervene in the way that he has done.

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[Lord Adonis]

May I take up the very generous offer of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, that someone else read his speech? I am very keen to get hold of it, and I will make suitable amendments, including accepting the amendments moved this afternoon, which are excellent. I am also keen to get hold of the future speeches of my noble friend on the Front Bench. If we have a meeting minds on what I think will be the increasingly important issue facing the House—that of how the meaningful vote is conducted and whether there should be a vote of the people on the withdrawal treaty—and get to the right place on that, I hope we can live up to the injunction of the noble Lord, Lord Patten, that we uphold our democratic traditions. We clearly need to, given the gravity of the issues we face.

The noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, said he thought that leaving the European Union was the worst decision taken by Parliament since the rejection of the Irish home rule Bills in the 1880s and 1890s. We all have our lists of the worst decisions taken by Parliament, but on Irish home rule I would note that the first home rule Bill was defeated by the House of Commons and the second by the House of Lords. We have not played an honourable part at all in the conduct of Irish affairs over the last 150 years. The second home rule Bill was possibly the last best chance of devolution to the island of Ireland as a whole, on an agreed basis, and was promoted by arguably the best Prime Minister —Churchill aside—this country has had in the last 150 years: Gladstone. That Bill was rejected in this House by 419 to 41 votes—nearly unanimously—on the recommendation of the then leader of the Conservative Party, Lord Salisbury, who said that the Irish were no more fitted to self-government than Hottentots and uncivilised tribes in Africa. We do not always get these decisions right as a Parliament and we need to pay very careful attention—as we seek to do now—to the frame in which we take these momentous decisions at the end of the year.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Does the noble Lord not appreciate the irony of choosing the home rule Bill as an example? This Bill is about restoring home rule to Britain from Europe.

[Lord Adonis]

What Gladstone showed so brilliantly is that it is possible to share sovereignty both within your nation and between nations. Gladstone was a great champion of the concept of Europe and, indeed, of international arbitration, which he pioneered to a significant extent.

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[Baroness Altmann]

My Lords, I rise to support this group of amendments and I commend all those noble Lords who have tabled and spoken so eloquently to them. I too deeply regret that they are even necessary. It is hard to believe that in purporting to respect the referendum result, which the Government have portrayed as wanting to take back control, this legislation does not ensure that it is our Parliament rather than one group of Ministers that will have proper control over the future EU relationship. There must be a meaningful vote for Parliament.

We cannot accept a Bill which fails to respect the sovereignty of Parliament on an issue of such magnitude. That is how our democracy works. I support in particular Amendments 199, 216 and 217, tabled in the names of several of my noble friends, which relate to the no-deal position. We are trying to deliver what the British people voted for and they trust us to do that well. Surely, we know that the will of the people is not a no- deal outcome. Indeed, we were given in detail in the debate this morning on the first amendments a snapshot of the many disasters that could befall our country and its citizens if we lose all the benefits of the EU safeguards, protections and agencies on which their daily lives depend, as well as our industrial success.

These amendments are about parliamentary control and guarding against a no-deal outcome—just in case that is the outcome which is envisaged. Enough of the bluster and bravado; enough of those who are still saying that no deal is okay; and enough of seeming to rely on the EU to rescue us from the cliff edge before we jump because they assume that Europe does not want the damage that the no-deal outcome would do. I say this to my noble friend the Minister: please accept these amendments or bring forward an appropriate government version on Report which puts our Parliament properly at the centre and in control of protecting our national interest in this Bill.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, it may have changed since I was in the House of Commons, but can my noble friend explain to me why she thinks it necessary for this House to amend the Bill in order for the House of Commons to have a vote on anything it chooses?

[Baroness Altmann]

It is indeed our job to make recommendations to the other place if we believe that there are issues in this Bill which go to the heart of some of the constitutional matters relating to it.

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[Lord Callanan]

I do not think I said that. The terms of Amendment 7 are fairly clear. That has been written into Clause 9 by another place, and we will respect that.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Perhaps I was not paying enough attention, but can I ask my noble friend: if we are going to end up with primary legislation to implement the agreement, why is it necessary to have Clause 9 at all? He gave some examples of particular regulations, but I could not see the link that justified having Clause 9 itself.

[Lord Callanan]

There are some technical provisions that we may want to use Clause 9 to implement, subject to the provisions of Amendment 7. There is also the political imperative that the House of Commons considered this matter closely and decided to keep Clause 9 in the Bill, albeit modified. We want to respect the will of the House of Commons.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

At this point, we are not entirely in control of matters regarding the future. I know that it is frustrating for many of your Lordships, but that is where we have to deal with the negotiations.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I am not an expert in any of these matters, but it is a bit of a puzzle. Why would we want to bring into our legislation regulations which everyone accepts are not fit for purpose, and not bring into effect immediately—

[Noble Lords]

No!

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am referring there to the old regulations. The new regulations would provide for a better regime and—this is the most important point, which I hope my noble friend will deal with—enable people to plan ahead for their clinical trials in the future. They need to know which regulatory regime will apply.

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank my noble friend for his intervention. I was about to say that the existing UK legislation based on the current clinical trials directive will be corrected using the powers in this Bill so that that regime continues to function properly when the UK is no longer a member of the EU. This will mean that there is no interruption in UK clinical trials approval. Perhaps I may deal with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar.

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[Viscount Hailsham]

The point is a very sound one, although of course most of us no longer pay national insurance contributions. There is of course another word that one could use, which is “imposition”, as in a financial imposition. The real truth is that we are entitled to a proper definition.

Having focused on some specific narrow points, I would just like to look at one or two general ones. The first is the point that I made on Wednesday, and I shall keep a firm grip on it: any power given to Ministers and officials will be abused. That is an absolute cardinal rule of politics. Secondly, the degree of ministerial and parliamentary control on any statutory instrument is minimal. I speak as one who has considerable authority for saying that: for 10 years I was a Minister and I do not know how many scores of statutory instruments I signed off, but it must have been a very large number.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Too many.

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[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I was once estimably advised by the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull. I want to look at this amendment from the point of view not of the civil servant but of the Minister. I think your Lordships’ House has already understood how difficult it would be for a Minister to understand what he could or could not do under this part of the Bill. First of all, he would have to turn to the modern equivalent of the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, to ask him what the distinction between a fee and a charge was, and I am not sure that the noble Lord’s equivalent could be entirely precise as to what that distinction was because it is almost impossible to tell.

The noble Lord sitting next to the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, got up and pointed out the word “contribution”. Of course when talked of in terms of national insurance a contribution is manifestly a tax, but it does not cover the cost of the service to which it is actually appended. It must therefore be possible to have a fee that does not cover the cost but is in fact a tax. That suggests that this part of the Bill—I do not speak of any other part—has not been entirely well thought through.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I do not wish to prolong this but I have been reflecting on the definition by the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, of a tax. He said that it was if you made a surplus. Does that mean that if a charge were being made for a service and the body concerned cut its costs so that it was making a surplus, it would then turn into a tax?

[Lord Deben]

It seems to me that almost any circumstance does not fit this part of the Bill; indeed, I find it difficult to find a single circumstance that does. I hesitate to put this to my noble friend because on the last occasion when I tried to be helpful he found me more unhelpful than usual, so I shall be very careful, but I ask him to imagine that this particular clause was being proposed by a monarch who simply said, “I want to have the powers to decide what kind of word I am going to use for taking money out of your pocket without proper parliamentary control”. I think I know what our forefathers would have said to that monarch. He might indeed have been in fear of his life, for this is precisely what Parliament is about.

We ought not to deal with this merely in the reasonably light-hearted way in which we have pointed out that this is an ill-conceived, utterly ill-thought-through and entirely indefensible bit of the Bill. We should take it one stage further and say that it is fundamentally unacceptable in a democracy that any mechanism can give Ministers the power to decide on taxation without representation. This is what we are here for. This is what Parliament is here for.

It is no good my noble friend reading out, as he will, the carefully phrased answers, because the people who have written the answers have caused the problem in the first place. They are the ones who have not understood that taking back control does not mean giving it to my noble friend. It means, if it is necessary—I do not think it is, but if it is—giving it to Parliament. This is part of the Bill which does not so do. The amendments attempt to put right what is, in the immortal words of some Members of the House, a dog’s breakfast, which is rude to dogs.

This is entirely unacceptable, but there is one bit that I find more unacceptable than any other. If this is necessary in order to carry through our international obligations, which is an argument that has been used, it is a peculiar addition to a Bill which is removing us from international obligations. The one place where this should not be is in the withdrawal Bill. We are withdrawing from international obligations on the basis that we do not want to have them, but writing in an ability to assert international obligations by secondary legislation.

My noble friend Lord Forsyth, who has followed me so far, did not like my little comment about the EU, but I am sure he agrees that we should not be using secondary legislation to impose taxation as a result of international obligations. That is not what it is about.

My last point is very simple. I have always found the word “expediency”, when used by Ministers, a red flag. Ministers always say that something is necessary because it is expedient. Expediency is always the excuse for doing something which you cannot do properly but which you get through on the basis that this is an emergency, it is urgent, or it has something to do with terrorism—we can find some reason or other that means we cannot wait for the proper process.

I was a Minister for 16 years. We are three former Ministers. None of us thinks that this power should have been given to us, so just think how little we believe it should be given to people with a different political view. I say to the Minister, who is well to a different part of the Conservative Party from me, that he should be the last person to give these powers to Ministers.

--- Later in debate ---

One of the reasons why I want to make a brief contribution this afternoon is that I am extremely sad that my noble friend Lord Higgins is unable to be here. His name is on one of these amendments, and I know why. As a former Treasury Minister, and one of very considerable distinction, who among other things was responsible for bringing VAT into our law, he believes that this really is a step too far. I cannot begin to make a speech based on the expertise that he has had for so many years, but it is significant that such a former Treasury Minister should have wanted to nail his colours to this particular mast. It is significant that we have three experienced former Ministers on the Bench below the gangway who all took some pleasure in exercising their powers but who all believe that this is a step and a power too far. We are doing today what we were seeking to do on Wednesday of last week—to put down markers to protect the House of Commons. Your Lordships’ House does not have power—nor should it have—to impose or withhold taxes. That is the ultimate power that is vested in the House of Commons by the electorate.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My noble friend mentioned VAT. Is that not an example of where Parliament no longer has the power to reduce the rate of VAT below 5% because we have given that to the European Union? Is not our leaving the European Union an example of restoring the authority of Parliament to impose taxes?

[Lord Cormack]

Our leaving the European Union is an exceptionally unfortunate measure that will do great damage to this country, in my opinion. But the answer to my noble friend’s specific question is that it was enacted by Parliament—a Parliament of which he was not a Member but of which my noble friend Lord Deben and I were—and that, knowing the consequences, we voted for it because we believed that it was in the general interest of our country. We were behaving as Members of the House of Commons should behave. It was properly debated, thoroughly approved and it came on to the statute books as other things have done.

I go back to what I was saying when my noble friend interrupted me. We have a duty to protect and to urge the other place not to abdicate the central power of an elected House—to deal with taxation. I hope that when my noble friend replies we will have a slightly more satisfactory and understanding reply than we had last Wednesday. I hope, too, that he will ensure, if not today, that we have a glossary of all these terms, including charges, fees, taxes, contributions and levies. At the end of the day they all mean something very similar: imposing an obligation to pay. People should never fall under that obligation unless it is imposed by their representatives in Parliament. We have a duty, as the second Chamber—the unelected Chamber—to say to our colleagues at the other end of the Corridor, “Please do not abdicate; please flex your muscles; please do not give to Ministers—the 109 whom we talked about the other night—or to other bodies or authority a power that is only rightly yours”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

I take on board the sincere nature of the noble Lord’s assurances on this matter.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Might my noble friend point out to the noble Lord that, if it is about taxation, that burden would not be placed on this Chamber anyway?

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

On the subject of trust, the noble and learned Lord mentioned the Edinburgh agreement, which the Scottish nationalists signed up to. No sooner was the ink dry on the paper than they were repudiating it. Does he remember the assertion that it would be a “once in a generation” referendum on independence? Surely we are dealing in Scotland with a nationalist Government determined to destroy the United Kingdom. Why on earth would one want to give them a veto over decisions taken by the United Kingdom Parliament?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I accept that, with regard to “once in a generation”, the Scottish National Party is guilty of not living up to what it said, but it is not right to say that, once the ink was dry on the paper, it totally forgot it. What was in that agreement informed both the Section 30 order that was passed and the legislation then passed by the Scottish Parliament in conformity with the agreement. A substantial part of that agreement was carried through in good faith by both parties.

The detailed wording of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act was important in getting the right balance in the devolution settlement. If in the normal course of events that were to change, it would require an order under Section 30 of the Scotland Act, which requires an affirmative vote not only by both Houses of this Parliament but by the Scottish Parliament. What we are proposing is consistent with what would happen in the normal course of events when the balance of the devolution settlement was changed. That is why I strongly encourage the Minister at least to show willingness to think about this matter and reassure us that the Government are sensitive to it. That could go some way towards establishing a better basis for trust as we look forward to our debates on Clause 11.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

The contributions already made make it perfectly clear how fragile and in many respects how insubstantial is the basis of devolution as we know it. The sovereign Parliament of Westminster has created a sub-Parliament in respect of Scotland and Wales. The sovereign authority that created that Parliament can undo that Parliament any day that it wishes to do so. If it did so I have no doubt that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, would agree with me that it would be the best recruiting sergeant that Plaid Cymru ever had. Be that as it may, the power is there to do exactly that. It is, of course, utterly understandable that nobody expects that power to be used. In fact, in Clause 1 of both the Scotland Act and the Wales Act of last year there is written in what is intended to guarantee the permanence of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. In terms of law, it has no restriction whatever; it is purely cosmetic but well intentioned. I do not think that, in so far as any legal interpretation is concerned, there is a different view held, but I will be corrected on that point.

Nevertheless, those two Parliaments exist at the mercy, as it were, of this sovereign Parliament. I do not know whether one can change the situation, because the concept of sovereignty means that it can be withdrawn at any time. Unless, of course, one has some self-abnegative discipline—for example, to say that there is a convention. In the Miller case that came before the Supreme Court some time ago, the argument was raised that there was a basic authority that related to each of the Parliaments. No, said the Supreme Court, it is a convention. However, nobody had defined a convention. If Parliament went out of its way to define a convention and said, “In this context a convention means a, b, c and d”, that might get us somewhere. It is a suggestion.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord may recall that during the passage of the last Scotland Act there was great debate on Clause 2 about whether the convention of seeking legislative consent could be enshrined in law. We ended up with a rather unsatisfactory clause that said that this Parliament,

“will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters”.

As some of us argued at the time, what on earth does “normally” mean? It came from trying to enshrine the convention in statute. On the subject of people respecting conventions, the noble Lord may not be aware that the Scottish Parliament wishes to charge on with its own legislation on the basis that there is no legislative consent Motion agreed to this legislation, despite the fact that the Presiding Officer has declared that legislation illegal. If we are to have a Parliament acting illegally, led by nationalists who wish to break up the United Kingdom, I think that, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has suggested, we should go cannily.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

One is greatly tempted to look at this situation beyond the Tweed, as it were—but I will abjure that temptation now and, I hope, for ever. I have scars on my back already in relation to what has happened in Wales over the last few decades.

I believe that in relation to these situations, one can draw a distinction between a convention and something else. A convention can be defined by Parliament in such a way as to have a semi-sovereign authority. That is my point. It is not the same thing as saying that it is regarded as the ordinary way of doing things—that is a totally different argument. In that way, it seems that one might achieve a reasonable and honourable settlement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am very grateful to noble Lords who have participated in this very wide-ranging debate, particularly to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for moving his amendment and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, for moving her amendment to the amendment. I shall first try to deal with a couple of very basic points before turning to the substance of the debate and I shall then try to pick up some of the points made by noble Lords. I gently say to the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, that if my aim was to cut short this debate, I failed fairly spectacularly. I regret that. I had sought to clarify where we were—but I will go through the basic principles again.

I shall deal with a couple of very basic points. First, I do not know where the idea came from that there is some possibility of the Government fundamentally amending or repealing the Government of Wales Act without consent. That is not remotely on our agenda. It is certainly not something that I would tolerate. I suppose it is just about within the scope of Austinian sovereignty, but I do not know where the idea came from that that is a possibility—so let me put that to bed absolutely right away. We are totally committed to devolution—the Government of Wales Act, the Scotland Act and the Northern Ireland Act—and I think that noble Lords will appreciate that point.

Secondly, I think that there has been some confusion. We are not principally dealing with Clause 11 today. There might be some confusion because we have just published the amendments in relation to Clause 11, following an undertaking we gave in another place—but that will be the subject of much broader discussion later. No doubt we will go through that in some substance, so I do not intend to deal with it and pre-empt what is going to happen later in our consideration of the Bill.

I thank noble Lords for this valuable debate. We will consider the main clauses relating to devolution in coming days, but the question of how the powers conferred by the Bill interact with our devolution settlements and the responsibilities of our devolved institutions is no less important and deserves no less robust scrutiny. I shall first speak to the protection for the devolution statutes in relation to the Clause 7(1) correcting power and by extension its Schedule 2 counterpart. There are many amendments in Schedule 3 for those who want some idea of what will be brought forward on Report. It is not a question of them coming forward now. My noble friend Lady McIntosh raised this, but we are not in a position to come up with all the amendments that may be necessary. They will be debated on Report. We are talking about every correction that is necessary being brought forward on Report for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. It is as simple as that. I hope that clarifies what I hoped to clarify right at the start.

I must start by emphasising that the Government recognise the importance of our devolution settlements and the Acts through which they have effect. I think noble Lords who know my history will know that that is my starting point. That is why we have sought to make as many corrections to the Acts as possible in the Bill already. Those, as I say, can be found in Part 2 of Schedule 3. We want to be open and transparent in demonstrating that these are, as noble Lords will discover when they look at them, simply technical fixes to remedy deficiencies created by leaving the EU. For instance, much like in other pieces of legislation, we must remove or replace redundant references to member states or EU institutions.

The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, is absolutely right to raise the unique importance of the Northern Ireland Act as the statutory manifestation of the Belfast agreement. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis—I hope the record will show this—I do not think I said that we were bringing forward amendments in relation to the Good Friday agreement on Report. What we are doing is bringing forward some amendments in relation to Northern Ireland to make sure that all the amendments that relate to Northern Ireland are in the Bill. I cannot stress often enough or strongly enough our total, steadfast commitment to the Belfast agreement. That is precisely why we have, in this Bill, already generally restricted the correcting power from making corrections to the Northern Ireland Act. As I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, is aware, references to Northern Ireland amendments are minimal, and we will seek to make sure that all of those are on the face of the Bill when it comes back on Report.

Noble Lords must recognise that there remain outstanding corrections to the Acts that must be made in order to ensure that they function properly on exit day. Corrections to the Scotland Act and the Government of Wales Act are being discussed with the Scottish and Welsh Governments, and progress is being made. It is a mistake to think that people are at daggers drawn. This is not how things are operating, as many noble Lords are well aware. Day to day, negotiations go on very constructively and effectively—that is what is happening. We have not made all of the corrections on the face of the Bill so far, as we must rightly agree the forms of the corrections to those Acts with the Scottish and Welsh Governments. Indeed, some fall within devolved competence to address. In some cases, alternative mechanisms may exist to deal with them.

I can provide further reassurance, because these are not matters of substantive policy. This is about correcting provisions that will not function correctly once we have left the EU. For example, there is provision in the Government of Wales Act requiring the Auditor-General for Wales to make certain arrangements for bodies established by the European Union. This will need to be updated so that the provision continues to work in a post-exit world. There is one correction that must be made to the Northern Ireland Act, as I have referred to, which relates to technical standards—the quality of goods and safety marks. This, again, is fairly routine and will be brought forward on Report.

It would be irresponsible for us to place these limits on the correcting power if we could not also provide the answers to the questions—which I am now providing —and the assurance that we will deal with these issues on Report. I can confirm that we will bring forward amendments on Report to apply the same protection for the Scotland Act and the Government of Wales Act as for the Northern Ireland Act, so that all the necessary amendments will appear on the face of the Bill on Report. Contrary to what some noble Lords seem to think, we have made substantial progress in discussions, but we were not in a position to remedy the remaining deficiencies for consideration in Committee. I regret that, but I am very pleased that we have made the progress we have.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I do not know whether my noble friend reads the Scottish papers. If he does, he will have seen that there has been headline after headline about the Scottish Government claiming that this is a great power grab by Westminster—attacking the Government and attacking the whole concept of leaving the European Union with scare stories about the impact of it. I am a little puzzled that he can say that there is a gentlemanly discussion going on when that is the perception north of the border.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I do not recognise the power-grab allegation as being anywhere near reality. We are making progress. Of course there are differences, but I think in fairness all parties concerned have indicated, as the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, did, that progress is being made. These are complex issues and it is a great mistake to see this, in some Animal Farm way as all black and white. It is not like that. Progress is being made. There is still territory to cover and progress to be made, but we are making that progress.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, late at night on 21 July 1998, I was sitting where the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, is sitting at the moment, when Lord Sewel responded to an amendment moved by Lord Mackay of Drumadoon to this effect during the passage of the Scotland Act:

“This Act does not affect the power of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to make laws for Scotland, which may not be amended or repealed by the Scottish parliament”.


In resisting that amendment, Lord Sewel said:

“Clause 27 makes it clear that the devolution of legislative competence to the Scottish parliament does not affect the ability of Westminster to legislate for Scotland even in relation to devolved matters. Indeed, as paragraph 4.4 of the White Paper explained, we envisage that there could be instances where it would be more convenient for legislation on devolved matters to be passed by the United Kingdom Parliament. However, as happened in Northern Ireland earlier in the century, we would expect a convention to be established that Westminster would not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters in Scotland without the consent of the Scottish parliament.


If problems do arise the solution is for the Scottish executive and the United Kingdom Government to resolve the matter through political dialogue. That is what differences between mature parliaments and executives will be concerned with. That is what happens in other political systems. I cannot believe that it is beyond our wit to develop such a convention”.—[Official Report, 21/9/98; cols. 790-91.]


So the use of the word “normally” was off the cuff, and I imagine that Lord Sewel would be as surprised as I am to find that it has become subject to such intense examination in subsequent years.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The word “normally” was certainly not off the cuff. If the noble Lord looks back at the lengthy debates we had during the passage of the last Scotland Bill, he will find that there was considerable debate about the use of the word “normally” and the wisdom of including in statute what Lord Sewel said was a convention.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I think that the noble Lord misses the point. I am saying that that was where the word “normally” first originated in 1998. No doubt it has received considerable debate since, and indeed I have listened to debates on that topic.

The problem is a lack of trust—as has been mentioned by a number of noble Lords today and as has been illustrated by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, in a number of interventions—between the United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government, and no doubt a lack of trust between the Labour Government in Wales and the Government in Westminster. It seems to me that it derives from the suggestion that there should be an imposition by the Westminster Government on areas currently devolved to the Parliament and the Assembly.

I looked at the leave campaign’s open letter of 14 June 2016, a week before the referendum. It said:

“There is more than enough money to ensure that those who now get funding from the EU—including universities, scientists, family farmers, regional funds, cultural organisations and others—will continue to do so while also ensuring that we save money that can be spent on our priorities”.


That letter was signed by Mr Johnson, Mr Gove, Ms Priti Patel, Mr Grayling, Mr Duncan Smith and many others. The leader of the Conservatives in Wales, Mr Andrew Davies, said:

“Today’s announcement is hugely welcome and is further evidence that Wales would be better off out of the European Union ... we now know that funding for each and every part of the UK, including Wales, would be safe if we vote to leave”.


Carwyn Jones, the First Minister of Wales, said:

“Those who signed this letter have no more power to deliver on it than my children’s pet cat”.


However, the referendum was won by the leave faction, and there was a proposal in the 2017 Conservative manifesto to set up a UK shared prosperity fund. The manifesto said:

“We will use the structural fund money that comes back to the UK following Brexit to create a United Kingdom Shared Prosperity Fund, specifically designed to reduce inequalities between communities across our four nations ... We will consult widely on the design of the fund, including with the devolved administrations, local authorities, businesses and public bodies”.


The word used in that manifesto was “consult”, not “agree”. Certainly, there was no suggestion that they would look for consent. Similarly, the paper published in June 2017 on the agreement with the DUP, UK Government Financial Support for Northern Ireland, said that Northern Ireland’s needs would be “properly reflected” in the fund,

“which will benefit all parts of the UK”.

So it seems that the intention, as expressed in that manifesto, was for the United Kingdom Government at Westminster to hold the money bags—the structural funds—and dole out the money as they thought fit without any requirement for agreement. The mistrust probably began before then, but that is where it was intensified.

The position is this. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, mentioned earlier the Barnett formula. If, in taking over the rules and regulations relating to regional development, the money were to be distributed under the Barnett formula, Wales would be significantly worse off. The Bevan Foundation, in its report published in conjunction with the Welsh Local Government Association last October, said that using the Barnett formula the estimated allocation of funds for Wales between 2014 and 2020 would be not the actual €2.2 billion but just €562 million. In other words, if the Barnett formula was applied to the structural funds, Wales would get one-quarter of what it was promised up until 2020. And we really do not know what will happen after that: no commitments have been made.

If this clause remains unamended, the United Kingdom Government will have the power to take over all the rules and regulations relating to regional development, agriculture, fisheries and many other areas and to change them and develop other structures as they think fit. Maybe that is a good thing, but only provided that the devolved Administrations consent to it. I cannot understand why the Government resist the concept of consent and agreement—surely, that is the way forward. I think the only reason they resist it is that they do not trust the people they are negotiating with. But they are negotiating with members of a unionist party in the United Kingdom: it does not say much for a United Kingdom if you cannot trust the other partners to that kingdom to reach a sensible agreement. That is what the fuss is about and why I support these amendments.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I want to follow on from what the noble Lord said. I am not going to talk about Wales, but one of the arguments often put forward by Scottish nationalists is that we must not leave the European Union because we are so dependent on the single market that is the European Union. I think we should focus tonight on the single market that is the United Kingdom. I listened to the noble Lord and I take his point about the Barnett formula. He is absolutely right that it is extremely generous to Scotland and very unfair to Wales. In my opinion, resources should be distributed according to need and not on the basis of a formula that has been amended according to population. But if it is to be the case that the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament are to have a veto on these matters, what is the prospect of Wales being able to get a fairer share without that being vetoed by Scotland? It is a matter for the United Kingdom Government to decide for the United Kingdom as a whole, and for the single market that is the United Kingdom as a whole.

I have to say that I think the amendments from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, are naive. We are faced with an Administration in Scotland who are absolutely determined to break up the United Kingdom —that is their purpose. We can have all the talks we want with the political Administration, until the crack of doom, but hey ho, we will find that they are saying something completely different from the civil servants. The civil servants will take exactly the kind of sensible, pragmatic, legalistic approach that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, has. But the politicians have another agenda—an agenda which has been set back by the courage of the Prime Minister—which is to destroy the United Kingdom. As a unionist, I have an agenda to make sure that every part of the United Kingdom is treated fairly and that there is no veto for any part of it. We have four parliaments in the United Kingdom, but we have only one United Kingdom Parliament, and that is this.

When Lord Sewel produced his convention, it was greeted with great enthusiasm by the Scottish Parliament. If the noble and learned Lord looks at the record, he will find that this Parliament has legislated for the Scottish Parliament to a very considerable degree—mainly because, until recently, it sat for only one and a half days a week on legislation and so did not have enough time. Now we are in the absurd position where, when a perfectly sensible accommodation has been offered to them by the United Kingdom Parliament, the posturing of Ministers in the Scottish Government—which is about trying to create division and turn everything into a constitutional crisis—is against the interests of having a single market, which they say is essential to the Scottish economy in the case of Europe. Their position is that they do not want any of these powers to come to Wales, Scotland or the United Kingdom; they wish them to remain in Brussels. It is an utterly hypocritical stance. They would rather these matters were decided in Brussels, where even the Scottish Nationals elected as Members of Parliament down the Corridor would have no say. It is political gamesmanship and we would be foolish to accede to it.

We should proceed with the Bill, unamended, and ensure that the United Kingdom Government can work with the Parliaments of the various parts of the United Kingdom to preserve that single market—which, incidentally, is worth four times as much to the people of Scotland in income, jobs and everything else than the single market they purport to defend, which is that of the European Union.

This is a great deal of heat and waffle perpetrated by people who do not like the result of the referendum. They are terribly keen on referenda but find it difficult to accept the results. They argue that we have to have another referendum on independence and we have to have another referendum on Europe. I say to the noble Lord, who is normally very courteous, that to describe in such pejorative terms the 17.4 million people in the United Kingdom who voted to leave—400,000 of whom were Scottish nationalists—is following the course of his leader, who used disgraceful language to insult the 17.4 million people only this week.

I hope that the House will reject these amendments so we can get on with the task of making a success of the United Kingdom, which at last has the powers and authority to ensure that all parts of our country benefit from being able to determine our own affairs.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

My noble friend has given an interesting speech but it does not appear to bear any relation to the amendments before the House this evening. The amendments go to the heart of obtaining the consent of the Scottish people as expressed through the Scottish Parliament. He is a democrat, I am a democrat. Does he not agree that the amendments go to the heart of devolution and that that is what we are trying to maintain, particularly in the amendments that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, introduced this evening?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

If the noble Baroness would like me to repeat my speech when she is listening, I will happily do so. However, I do not think the House would like me to. Perhaps she will read what I have said. She says that this goes to the heart of democracy: well, these are matters for the United Kingdom Parliament. There is no veto for any of the devolved Administrations. We have debated this endlessly. This amendment would give a veto; it would mean that the tail was wagging the dog; it would mean that the Scottish Parliament could prevent what was in the interests of the rest of the United Kingdom. That is not democracy.

The noble Baroness needs to address the words on the Order Paper—the words of the amendment—and listen to the arguments, instead of pursuing her ideological determination to reverse the decision of the British people.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I hope that the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, will be reported loudly and clearly in Scotland, because I have no doubt that only one set of winners will be coming from that. The whole of the previous debate and this debate have centred on the question of trust. I am not sure whether the comments we have just heard will help create that trust in future.

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said that my friends in Scotland were ignoring the English single market while building up the European single market—but the European single market includes the UK single market. It is one single market—a bigger one. Those who are looking to that single market are looking outward, not inward and restricting their boundaries to around the coasts of these islands.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I said no such thing. I said that the single market, which is the European market, is a quarter of the size of the single market that is the United Kingdom for Scotland.

[Lord Wigley]

It may well be, but the European single market includes England at this point in time. In other words, they are not losing anything.

The main point I want to come back to is that made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, with regard to resources. If we are being asked to trust giving a veto to Westminster and to the UK Government —that is essentially is what is coming through in a number of these clauses, whether or not that veto will be used in any way—that a power to impose policies in areas that have been devolved. That is clearly going to rankle with people who have become used to using those powers.

We have had experience of this. The noble Lord mentioned regional policy. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, will remember the problems we had in the early days of the National Assembly for Wales. There were problems in getting Westminster and Whitehall to pass over money that was for Wales and not holding it in the Treasury in London. That was what was happening, and it was not until Mr Barnier intervened with the then Chancellor, Gordon Brown, that £442 million was passed over to Wales. It was being held back by Whitehall and the Treasury. That is the background to the lack of trust we have. If we are to build up a future of trust, which is what I want to see between the nations of these islands, it has to be recognised that in some areas the leadership is coming from the devolved regimes. In other areas such as international affairs and defence, it is fair enough that the responsibility should lie here, and there will be grey areas. However, we have to make sure that we have a mechanism whereby we respect each other to sort out the grey areas, but attention has not been paid to that side of the argument. We should concentrate on that, and the amendment moved by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, is a step in that direction.

If the Minister will consider the request made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and respond to his proposals in this context as a way of showing good will towards reaching some understanding in the other contexts we shall come to, perhaps we will then start to make progress. May I ask the Minister to consider inviting those interested in these matters to meet to try to agree on a proposal from here that would go at least some way towards answering the problems being felt in Cardiff and Edinburgh? This is not insoluble, but it needs good will. However, good will is not always in evidence here.

European Free Trade Association

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 27th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I was not totally clear what the noble Lord was asking me there, but of course not all of the EFTA countries are in the EEA: Switzerland is not. We will clearly want to continue our relationship with the EFTA countries afterwards, as they are close friends and neighbours. After the end of the implementation period, we will of course want to continue our association with them.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, could my noble friend confirm that Donald Tusk’s words—

“Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed”—

also apply as far as we are concerned, in particular to the contribution of money to the EU?

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I am happy to clarify for the noble Lord that we remain completely committed to the Good Friday agreement.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My noble friend has been accused of not being very experienced. I point out to those Members opposite that we are in Committee but we have had three and a half hours of Second Reading speeches, not speeches on the amendments.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, since we have come to the end of this interesting debate, as the mover of the first amendment I thank everyone who has taken part in it. I have no doubt at all that the points that have been raised are relevant to the Bill, otherwise they would not have been accepted, and that the arguments in relation to those amendments are therefore equally pertinent and we are all entitled to have the Government’s response if they have one.

One thing that has come through loud and clear from the Minister’s statement is the fact that he regards this, yes, as a debate about the single market and the customs union rather than about the contents of Clause 1. Well, if it was mainly a debate about the customs union and the single market, as it was, the message that has come from this House is loud and clear: four out of five of those who have taken part in the debate want to see the countries of these islands remain part of the customs union and the single market. If the Government are not going to face up to that, we shall undoubtedly come back on Report with an amendment that can get support across this House, and the Government will then have to defend their case in another place. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.