European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I really think that in this point in the debate it is best if people do not revert back to what people said in 2016 or I shall start talking about what people wrote on the side of a bus. It would be completely unproductive.

With the amendment in my name, we are also debating referendum amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Foulkes. There are slight differences in emphasis between them, but on one thing we are all agreed: Brexit is the most important decision that this country will face for decades. Every person in the country will be profoundly affected by it and so every person should have their say on whether it is a future that they wish to embrace.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I beg leave to move Amendment 357 in my name.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Countess of Mar) (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord will not be moving his amendment at this stage: he will be speaking to it.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Well then, I will speak to it.

[Lord Garel-Jones]

May I say something?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

All right.

[Lord Garel-Jones]

One of the interesting aspects of our country is that, unlike almost every other country in the world, we do not have a written constitution. Britain’s unwritten constitution could be summed up in one sentence—Parliament is supreme. I myself take the Thatcherite view on referendums, as indeed does my noble friend Lord Patten, but since this particular referendum was approved by Parliament, like it or not, I have to accept it. However, I remind the House of the Supreme Court’s ruling on this matter, of which quite by chance I happen to have a copy in my pocket:

“The 2016 referendum is of great political significance. However, its legal significance is determined by what Parliament included in the statute authorising it, and that statute simply provided for the referendum to be held without specifying the consequences. The change in the law required to implement the referendum’s outcome must be made in the only way permitted by the UK constitution, namely by legislation”.


That means that the outcome of these discussions must be laid before Parliament, and given that our unwritten constitution gives that right to Parliament, I have no doubt whatever that Her Majesty’s Government will abide by our unwritten constitution—the supremacy of Parliament.

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[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that Baroness Thatcher’s last vote in the House of Commons made in February 1992 was in favour of a referendum on the Maastricht treaty? She was nothing if not inconsistent on these matters.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, is it okay to speak now? I must apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Garel-Jones, for whom I have the greatest respect. I am glad that he got in to speak because if he had not, we would not have had the pearls of wisdom not only from him but from the noble Lord, Lord Patten, all of which I agree with. They have contributed greatly to our debate.

I shall speak to Amendment 357 and in support of the amendments tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Newby, which reflects if not all-party support, at least cross-party support. I apologise too for being a couple of minutes late for the start of the debate on this group of amendments, but I had not realised that the Bill is going through at breakneck speed today. Something has gone wrong. However, I am not sure that all of my colleagues would have minded if I had not made it at all because my party, or at least some in it, has not yet come around to supporting a new referendum; that is, not a second one, but a new one on the terms. I will make a rash prediction: they will eventually come around to supporting a new referendum because the vast majority of Labour members and supporters are in favour of one. If the leadership of my party is at all wise, it will come around to realising that it is not sensible to go against the views of the majority of our supporters.

Like other speakers and those who have intervened, I have never been a fan of referenda. It is right to point out that from time to time they have been used by dictators to advance their causes. People vote on other issues and they can be easily manipulated. We saw how this referendum was manipulated. It now appears that some things were happening from outside the United Kingdom that we did not even know about. But we did see people within the United Kingdom manipulating it. I will not go over what was on the side of the bus again or the other things that were said which have turned out to be—I will not use the word “lies”—pieces of misinformation given to the British people. If for no other reason than that, the British people should be given the opportunity to think again, although of course there are a lot of other reasons.

It was an advisory referendum. As I have said in the House before, what I find is the most astonishing, disturbing and upsetting thing is that normally intelligent, bright, clever and able people know that we are heading towards a disaster, yet they continue to say, “But we must move in that direction because, ‘The British people said so’”, thus ignoring the fact that it was an advisory referendum and all the other problems associated with it.

As I have said before, the franchise in Scotland for the Scottish referendum allowed 16 and 17-year olds—I will come back to that later—and European Union citizens to vote. The European Union referendum did not. Is it not crazy that European Union citizens were able to vote on the future of Scotland but not on the future of the United Kingdom in Europe?

[Lord Green of Deddington (CB)]

The noble Lord mentioned the possibility of European Union citizens voting in a referendum—and, of course, the question of franchise is referred to in Amendment 226. Is he aware that there are approximately 3.7 million EU citizens in the UK—not all of them adults, but certainly a couple of million or so who could vote—who could very well swing it? Is there anything more absurd than imagining that the future of this country would be determined by people who are not even citizens of it?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

It is not absurd at all. It is sensible because those people are taxpayers—at least most of them are. The noble Lord sniggers; he is an expert sniggerer. These people are taxpayers who are contributing to our society. As I said on a couple of previous occasions, there used to be a phrase, “No taxation without representation”. Those people are being taxed and they deserve the opportunity to have their say.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I was timing it to see how long it would be before the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, rose.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am intrigued by the idea of the noble Lord that anyone who is a taxpayer should have a vote. Does he think that every American or Chinese person—or anyone from any part of the world—who lives here and pays taxes should have a vote? It is a ridiculous proposition.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

A lot of Commonwealth citizens are able to vote. A lot of people have a vote—but these are European Union citizens talking about our membership of the European Union. It seems to me to be a logical proposition.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord was advancing the proposition that if you pay taxes here, you should have a vote. Does he now recognise that that is a silly argument?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I was answering a question. I was talking about European Union citizens who are taxpayers here—and I think most Members of this House understood that.

One of the blights of the referendum, apart from the facts of the flawed franchise and the misinformation, was the differential result. In replying to this, everyone tells me, “It was a referendum for the whole United Kingdom”. Nevertheless, some of the problems created were caused by that differential result. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, will know that in Scotland, this is fuelling nationalism and giving greater purchase to the SNP’s arguments. In Northern Ireland—I will not go into the problems because my noble friend Lord Hain articulated them brilliantly in a previous debate—there are real problems and absolutely no solutions put forward by the Government. It was a differential vote. London was overwhelmingly in favour of European Union membership, and one of the most insidious and difficult problems—which is not being talked about very much but will cause huge problems—is Gibraltar. It voted overwhelmingly—98% or 99%—to stay in the European Union, yet we will be dragging it out against its will if we go ahead. That will cause tremendous problems.

Like other noble Lords, I would argue—as I have done before—that this a parliamentary democracy and Parliament must make the decision. I did that in relation to this advisory referendum. As noble Lords—including the noble Lord, Lord Newby—said, Parliament should decide, but I accept the very strong argument that, since we went down this road on a referendum, we need to change tack by using one. I hope that the franchise will be better; I hope that European Union citizens and youngsters—16 and 17 year-olds—will be allowed to vote. On Friday, I went to George Heriot’s School in Edinburgh—a private school—and took part in a debate. I argued that the charitable status—I am nothing if not foolhardy—of private schools should be withdrawn. I was defeated, which will come as no surprise to Members. I did get 18 votes, by the way, which shows that there are some intelligent people in private schools—but I was overwhelmingly defeated. Afterwards, I said, “I think I should’ve come in and argued that we should remain in the European Union”—and I got overwhelming support. The youngsters know where their future lies. It is affecting them. I say with no disrespect, looking around the Chamber, that there are not many noble Lords here who will be affected for as long as those young people. So I hope they will be able to have a vote as well.

This argument is a very strong one. We are not talking about a second referendum; we are talking about a completely different thing. The noble Baroness opposite asked what the alternative would be if we rejected the negotiated deal. The alternative is very clear: the status quo. We are members of the European Union and we are doing well as a member of the European Union— although, day by day, with the prospect of Brexit, we are suffering some of the effects of it. The sooner we get out of this Brexit—

[A noble Lord]

Quagmire.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Quagmire. I was trying to think of a word that implied rushing towards it like the lemmings I described the other day.

[A noble Lord]

Suicide.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am grateful to my noble friend—this is a wonderful House, where you get so much support in so many ways. The sooner we get out of this and return to the status quo that has done this country proud for the past 40 years, the better.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, I put my name to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, when it was Amendment 181. I would have put my name to his amendment today but I did not have the opportunity to do so over the weekend.

In my speech at Second Reading I agreed with others that this is not an appropriate vehicle to require a further referendum on our leaving the European Union. However, I said that I would support any amendments necessary to ensure that a further referendum would be among the options in Parliament’s meaningful vote at the conclusion of the negotiations. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, is such an amendment.

I have feared throughout that the choice the Government intend to give Parliament at the conclusion of the negotiations is, “this agreement or no agreement”. I am sorry to say that what the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, said in our debate last Wednesday confirmed that this is indeed the Government’s intention. I hope that he will tell me I am wrong, but I think it was clear from what he said last week that that is what the Government propose to do. Of course, we must all hope that the agreement that emerges from the negotiations will be good for the UK—but the Prime Minister has famously said that no agreement would be better than a bad agreement. It would be entirely wrong if the only choice given to Parliament at the end of the negotiations was between an agreement, however bad, or no agreement at all. I know that the Prime Minister and the Government feel that they have an instruction from the people to take Britain out of the EU—but I cannot believe that a bad agreement is a correct interpretation of the wishes of a majority of the people as expressed in the referendum. If Parliament judges the outcome of the negotiations to be bad, a better alternative must be to think again before we drive the nation over a cliff.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Newby, I cannot get out of my mind my noble friend Lord Lisvane’s aunts, whom he described so graphically at Second Reading. If, having voted to go to cinema, they find that the two films available are ones they do not want to see, the only sensible course must be to think again about going to the cinema at all. If that is true for my noble friend’s aunts on a Saturday evening, I suggest that it is certainly true for the nation as a whole in one of the most important decisions that we will have to make in our generation.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, the noble Lord asked a question. It would not matter what kind of deal we got if we had a second referendum, the noble Lord would vote for us to remain in the European Union. Every single one of the speakers we have heard, and most of the people who support a second referendum, reject the decision of the British people to leave the European Union.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, insists on calling it a second referendum. It is not. If he is so furled to numerology, it is actually a third referendum because we had one in 1975.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The intention is clear. I am shocked, actually, at the noble Lord. He says that he is a unionist but in the debates on the Bill he has propounded the view that the Scottish Parliament should have a veto on legislation passed by this Parliament, and now he is arguing that it is important that people have the opportunity to reconsider their decision after a referendum in which a commitment was made to implement the result. How is that going to play in Scotland, where we have a Scottish Government and a Parliament where a majority voted for independence in a referendum? The words that the noble Lord keeps trotting out—that there should be an opportunity to rethink—will be played back by the nationalists and people who want to break up the United Kingdom. This is irresponsible.

We all know that at the moment both Houses of this Parliament are held with a degree of contempt by the electorate. How are they going to react if, having voted in the biggest vote in our history, this Parliament were to decide to reverse it? There is no danger of that because both this House and the House of Commons voted overwhelmingly to reject the idea of having another referendum.