European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

It is not absurd at all. It is sensible because those people are taxpayers—at least most of them are. The noble Lord sniggers; he is an expert sniggerer. These people are taxpayers who are contributing to our society. As I said on a couple of previous occasions, there used to be a phrase, “No taxation without representation”. Those people are being taxed and they deserve the opportunity to have their say.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I was timing it to see how long it would be before the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, rose.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am intrigued by the idea of the noble Lord that anyone who is a taxpayer should have a vote. Does he think that every American or Chinese person—or anyone from any part of the world—who lives here and pays taxes should have a vote? It is a ridiculous proposition.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

A lot of Commonwealth citizens are able to vote. A lot of people have a vote—but these are European Union citizens talking about our membership of the European Union. It seems to me to be a logical proposition.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord was advancing the proposition that if you pay taxes here, you should have a vote. Does he now recognise that that is a silly argument?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I was answering a question. I was talking about European Union citizens who are taxpayers here—and I think most Members of this House understood that.

One of the blights of the referendum, apart from the facts of the flawed franchise and the misinformation, was the differential result. In replying to this, everyone tells me, “It was a referendum for the whole United Kingdom”. Nevertheless, some of the problems created were caused by that differential result. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, will know that in Scotland, this is fuelling nationalism and giving greater purchase to the SNP’s arguments. In Northern Ireland—I will not go into the problems because my noble friend Lord Hain articulated them brilliantly in a previous debate—there are real problems and absolutely no solutions put forward by the Government. It was a differential vote. London was overwhelmingly in favour of European Union membership, and one of the most insidious and difficult problems—which is not being talked about very much but will cause huge problems—is Gibraltar. It voted overwhelmingly—98% or 99%—to stay in the European Union, yet we will be dragging it out against its will if we go ahead. That will cause tremendous problems.

Like other noble Lords, I would argue—as I have done before—that this a parliamentary democracy and Parliament must make the decision. I did that in relation to this advisory referendum. As noble Lords—including the noble Lord, Lord Newby—said, Parliament should decide, but I accept the very strong argument that, since we went down this road on a referendum, we need to change tack by using one. I hope that the franchise will be better; I hope that European Union citizens and youngsters—16 and 17 year-olds—will be allowed to vote. On Friday, I went to George Heriot’s School in Edinburgh—a private school—and took part in a debate. I argued that the charitable status—I am nothing if not foolhardy—of private schools should be withdrawn. I was defeated, which will come as no surprise to Members. I did get 18 votes, by the way, which shows that there are some intelligent people in private schools—but I was overwhelmingly defeated. Afterwards, I said, “I think I should’ve come in and argued that we should remain in the European Union”—and I got overwhelming support. The youngsters know where their future lies. It is affecting them. I say with no disrespect, looking around the Chamber, that there are not many noble Lords here who will be affected for as long as those young people. So I hope they will be able to have a vote as well.

This argument is a very strong one. We are not talking about a second referendum; we are talking about a completely different thing. The noble Baroness opposite asked what the alternative would be if we rejected the negotiated deal. The alternative is very clear: the status quo. We are members of the European Union and we are doing well as a member of the European Union— although, day by day, with the prospect of Brexit, we are suffering some of the effects of it. The sooner we get out of this Brexit—

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[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, I put my name to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, when it was Amendment 181. I would have put my name to his amendment today but I did not have the opportunity to do so over the weekend.

In my speech at Second Reading I agreed with others that this is not an appropriate vehicle to require a further referendum on our leaving the European Union. However, I said that I would support any amendments necessary to ensure that a further referendum would be among the options in Parliament’s meaningful vote at the conclusion of the negotiations. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, is such an amendment.

I have feared throughout that the choice the Government intend to give Parliament at the conclusion of the negotiations is, “this agreement or no agreement”. I am sorry to say that what the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, said in our debate last Wednesday confirmed that this is indeed the Government’s intention. I hope that he will tell me I am wrong, but I think it was clear from what he said last week that that is what the Government propose to do. Of course, we must all hope that the agreement that emerges from the negotiations will be good for the UK—but the Prime Minister has famously said that no agreement would be better than a bad agreement. It would be entirely wrong if the only choice given to Parliament at the end of the negotiations was between an agreement, however bad, or no agreement at all. I know that the Prime Minister and the Government feel that they have an instruction from the people to take Britain out of the EU—but I cannot believe that a bad agreement is a correct interpretation of the wishes of a majority of the people as expressed in the referendum. If Parliament judges the outcome of the negotiations to be bad, a better alternative must be to think again before we drive the nation over a cliff.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Newby, I cannot get out of my mind my noble friend Lord Lisvane’s aunts, whom he described so graphically at Second Reading. If, having voted to go to cinema, they find that the two films available are ones they do not want to see, the only sensible course must be to think again about going to the cinema at all. If that is true for my noble friend’s aunts on a Saturday evening, I suggest that it is certainly true for the nation as a whole in one of the most important decisions that we will have to make in our generation.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

To take the cinema analogy further, does the noble Lord not think that if the European Commission thought that there was a possibility of a second referendum, it would be likely to put something on at the cinema that would be even scarier for the maiden aunts?

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

My Lords, I had expected that intervention. If that is the EU’s tactic, it has plenty of ways of doing it, and plenty of motive for doing it, other than just producing a bad agreement.

As others have said, it is quite clear that, since the people voted in a national referendum to leave the European Union, that decision could be reversed only by the people. That would require either a further referendum or a general election in which the people had the opportunity to elect a Government with an explicitly different mandate. In those circumstances, I suspect the Government themselves would prefer a further referendum.

Ever since the referendum, I have argued that the British people are entitled to a further say when the terms of the UK’s departure are known. I still hold that view, but that is not the case which I am arguing today. The purpose of this amendment is simply to ensure that a further referendum remains an option if the negotiations do not turn out as well as the Government hope.

To say that Parliament’s so-called “meaningful vote” can be a choice only between a bad agreement and no agreement would be an outrage. I shall listen carefully to what the Minister says in his reply, but I am afraid that the Government intend that the meaningful vote will be simply a binary choice between the outcome of the negotiations and no agreement. In that case, I hope that the House will support an amendment on the lines of that proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Newby—if not this evening, then on Report.

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[Viscount Hailsham]

The noble Lord is quite right and my noble friend Lord Garel-Jones was indicating this point. When my noble friend Lord Callanan constantly says that the people have spoken and we are leaving, he is wrong because ultimately it is Parliament that will decide whether we leave or not, and maybe the British people by an election. I do hope that he will stop saying, as he has been saying rather too often to my way of thinking, that the referendum is conclusive of the matter and we are leaving, whatever. That is not consistent with my understanding of the British constitution, our history or our purpose. We have a right, as Parliament, to demand that we have the decisive say, and if we think it is right, there should be another referendum on the terms then identified.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I know the affection that my noble friend has for Parliament. Could he just remind the House of the size of the majorities against having a second referendum in both Houses of Parliament?

[Viscount Hailsham]

I think my noble friend, for whom I have the greatest respect, tempts me, and I am going to be tempted. I do not believe that there is a parliamentary majority for Brexit, either in this House or in that House. I certainly do not think that there is a parliamentary majority for a hard Brexit. I think that if Members in that place were to consult their consciences, they would vote to remain within the European Union. That is what we need to give them the opportunity to do.

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[Lord Bilimoria]

I hear everything that my noble colleague has said and I respect him greatly. All I am reflecting is what I have seen when I have asked hundreds if not thousands of young people in the country. Of course they can change their minds. Of course they did not turn out to vote two years ago, and they regret it dearly. I think that if they had a chance now they would turn out in droves, and I guarantee noble Lords that almost 100% of them would vote to remain. What is more, what is worrying and why these amendments are required is that we are being told by the Government that we will get a meaningful say, but we do not know what that meaningful say is. We are being told by the Government that if there is no deal, we will still have to leave. What we are not being told is, if we are not happy with a bad deal or a no-deal, that the people should have a chance to change their minds. Will the Minister confirm that this is the case; that whatever happens—deal, bad deal, no deal—we have to leave and people do not get another say? This is nonsense, because it is unacceptable and undemocratic.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

On this theme the noble Lord is pursuing that people have the right to change their minds, how many times do they have the right to change their minds? If, for example, we had another referendum and it was narrowly one way, would people like me be entitled to argue, “Actually, do you know what, we can do a better deal, and we should have another referendum”? We would have a neverendum of neverendums—is that what the noble Lord is arguing? It is clearly ridiculous.

[Lord Bilimoria]

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has made a point that is always made when I make this argument. But this is not a normal situation. This is a decision that is permanent, which will affect generations to come. It is a decision that has not been made with the full information. It is a decision where already in two years so much has come to light. It is a decision that depends on so many negotiations. Yes, we need another referendum so that people, with the full information, can have the option to make a proper decision, including changing their minds.

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[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, this whole process began with a referendum and it should therefore end with a referendum. What is very different about the referendum that occurred in June 2016 on our status within Europe compared with other referenda is that, for example, as my noble friend Lord Wigley will recall, when we campaigned on the same side of the argument in the Welsh referendum in 1997—and that was the case in Scotland as well—people knew exactly what they were voting for and against. If they were voting for an assembly, they knew what they were getting. If they were voting against, they knew it was the status quo. The same applied in the Scottish referendum. The same applied in the referendum in 2011 on the alternative vote. People knew then that they were getting a form of electoral reform if they voted for it, as I did, or they were voting for the status quo—the first past the post system—as in the end it turned out the majority did.

In this case people knew what they were voting against—they were voting against the European Union, to leave the European Union—but they had no idea what they were voting for because that was not spelled out. That is what makes this very different indeed. For example, did people know that Gibraltar would be put in an impossible predicament, as my noble friend Lord Foulkes pointed out? Did people know that the Irish border was likely to end up a hard border given the Government’s policy? There is a whole series of issues. Did people in the south Wales valleys, whose doors I knocked on by the hundred and who voted by a majority to leave, know that as a result the Government would have the opportunity for a power grab to reverse the process of devolution, as they are now seeking to do?

I clarify that this is not a second referendum. This is not an attempt to overturn the first referendum’s outcome. This is a referendum on the final deal. That is very different from seeking to rerun the first referendum. This is saying, “You now have the deal in front of you” —or no deal, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler, mentioned—“This is now your opportunity to say, ‘We started this process by a referendum. We want to end this process by a referendum and make our decision’”. Why are those who are opposed to a referendum on the final deal so afraid of the people speaking? What is so undemocratic about giving the people a final say, just as they had a say at the very beginning of this process?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, the noble Lord asked a question. It would not matter what kind of deal we got if we had a second referendum, the noble Lord would vote for us to remain in the European Union. Every single one of the speakers we have heard, and most of the people who support a second referendum, reject the decision of the British people to leave the European Union.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, insists on calling it a second referendum. It is not. If he is so furled to numerology, it is actually a third referendum because we had one in 1975.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The intention is clear. I am shocked, actually, at the noble Lord. He says that he is a unionist but in the debates on the Bill he has propounded the view that the Scottish Parliament should have a veto on legislation passed by this Parliament, and now he is arguing that it is important that people have the opportunity to reconsider their decision after a referendum in which a commitment was made to implement the result. How is that going to play in Scotland, where we have a Scottish Government and a Parliament where a majority voted for independence in a referendum? The words that the noble Lord keeps trotting out—that there should be an opportunity to rethink—will be played back by the nationalists and people who want to break up the United Kingdom. This is irresponsible.

We all know that at the moment both Houses of this Parliament are held with a degree of contempt by the electorate. How are they going to react if, having voted in the biggest vote in our history, this Parliament were to decide to reverse it? There is no danger of that because both this House and the House of Commons voted overwhelmingly to reject the idea of having another referendum.

[Lord Newby]

I am following the noble Lord with great interest. He says that the people will be outraged if they were to be asked again. Why then, when they are asked in opinion polls do they say time after time that they want a vote on the outcome? Why do over two-thirds of all Conservative voters who were recently polled say that they want a vote on the outcome?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I have not seen the particular poll that the noble Lord refers to but I saw the poll in the general election, when his party campaigned on the basis that we should have a second referendum and it was utterly destroyed—so much so that it now has to use this House as a platform to put forward its policies, because it is so beleaguered in the House of Commons.

[Lord Garel-Jones]

Is my noble friend saying that the Supreme Court is mistaken in this matter?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I thought I heard my noble friend argue not a few moments ago about the supremacy of Parliament. I believe in the supremacy of Parliament and that judicial interference is one of the worst aspects of our membership of the European Union, and another reason why we should get out of it. I give way to my noble friend Lord Patten of Barnes.

[Lord Patten of Barnes]

I am very grateful to my noble friend and am always keen to build bridges with him. Given what he has said about the importance of the supremacy of Parliament, which happens to be my view, and about the extent to which referendums are an assault on the way in which we have done things for decades in this country, would he support a free vote in Parliament when the outcome of the negotiations is known?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I have always regarded my membership of this place as giving me a free vote. Members of this House are not whipped to the extent that they are—

[Lord Patten of Barnes]

What about the vote in another place? Is my noble friend in favour, as Sir John Major suggested the other day, of having a free vote when the terms of the deal are known? Given what he has said already about the majesty of parliamentary democracy, I imagine that he would be keen on that.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

What I am keen on is people delivering on their promises. Not only did we promise in our manifesto that we would implement whatever the people decided in the referendum, but something like £8 million of our money was spent on putting leaflets through every door in the country, saying “What you decide we will implement”. The Government of the day promised to do that. Not only that, we stood in the general election with a clear manifesto commitment. So no, I would not be in favour of giving a free vote on a matter where we made a manifesto commitment, nor am I in favour of this House trying to overturn such commitments given by elected Governments.

All this is a distraction. It is the last gasp of the remainers. If the result had gone the other way, they would not be standing up making speeches “Oh well, it is a matter for Parliament and we cannot possibly accept the result of the referendum”.

[A noble Lord]

You would.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord says that I would. I would certainly not be doing that but he believes that I would, hence the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, that we should have another referendum because people have the right to change their mind. In arguing that I would make that case, they are making the case that having successive referendums will only encourage more.

I have one final point. It is a great irony, is it not, that those parties which are keen to have more referenda—the Scottish nationalists and the Liberals—are the ones which do not accept the results of referenda when we have them?

[Lord Bilimoria]

Perhaps I may challenge one point that the noble Lord made, which was really worrying. He said that one of the reasons that people voted to leave the European Union was because of the control from courts and judges. Yet the decision on Article 50 was not made by the European Court of Justice; it was made by our Supreme Court across the square and everyone should respect that. The language that he used reminds me of the Daily Mail’s headline, “Enemies of the people”. Is that what we have come to as a country and as a Parliament? Do we not respect our judiciary, which is the finest in the world?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, has made a great leap from what I said to what the Daily Mail said.

As to the point about judicial involvement, I will give one example. When I was a Minister of State in the Department of Employment, the European Commission decided to implement the working time directive. We thought that employment law was a matter that required unanimity, but it did so as a health and safety measure in order to have it implemented by qualified majority. The advice that I had as a Minister was that that was illegal and wrong, but I was also told that there was no point in my going to the European court because it has a duty to promote the acquis and I would lose. I do not know whether that advice was correct.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

Does the noble Lord recognise that the transfer from unanimity to a qualified majority was conducted by a Government and a Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher, from the party to which he belongs? It was in the Single European Act.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, is wrong.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside (Lab)]

Address the House!

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am responding to the noble Lord’s point.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

Addressing the House is not simply a matter of courtesy. When the noble Lord turns his back, we cannot hear him as the sound is not picked up.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

From past experience, I am sure that various people would like to change places with the noble Lord.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, is quite wrong. Employment measures at that time required unanimity. The working time directive was introduced as a health and safety measure and it was argued that it was so that it would require only qualified majority voting, and we would no longer have a veto. The issue was whether it was worth going to the court to argue that that was an improper act.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

The noble Lord has misunderstood what I said, which was that the provision in the treaty that provides for qualified majority voting for health and safety was introduced with the agreement of the Government of the day, whose Prime Minister was Margaret Thatcher.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

So what? It was not a health and safety measure; it was an employment law measure. The point that I made still stands.

I hope that we will not spend any more time discussing this second referendum, which is just an attempt by people in this House, who are unelected, to subvert the decision made by the British people.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, last week we had an interesting debate on what should happen if Parliament was given a take-it-or-leave-it decision. There was considerable support for the point of view that I sought to put forward with the support of many other noble Lords, which is that we should maintain our membership, suspend Article 50 and tell the Government to try again. I believe that that is the right course because Parliament is sovereign. I believe very strongly that the plebiscite is inimical to parliamentary representative democracy. I also believe that, because Parliament is sovereign, it can make what decision it wishes. We are talking about Parliament and not about the Executive. Throughout our debates, we have had a disturbing series of illustrations that the Government believe that the Executive are supreme. It is not; it is Parliament that is supreme.

We will not have a vote tonight, because these are probing amendments. But were we to have one, I would not vote for the amendment—not because I am completely out of sympathy with many of the points that were eloquently made by the noble Lords, Lord Newby and Lord Foulkes, and by others who have spoken in the same way, but because I believe it is premature to put an amendment of this nature into this Bill at this time. It is crucial that we do not undermine, but underpin, the sovereignty of Parliament, which is what we should be doing when we come to votes on Report. There will be votes, and I am quite sure I will be supporting a number of the amendments.

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[Lord Callanan]

We want a deal with the European Union. We have said that we will negotiate for the best possible deal and then we will put that to the House in a Motion. If Parliament approves it then we will bring legislation forward to implement the deal. That is what has been said many times in the other place as well.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Does my noble friend recall that both David Cameron and the leader of the Opposition wanted to implement Article 50 within days of the referendum result? All this argument suggesting that we have somehow precipitately moved into Article 50, and that the referendum did not give a clear instruction to both the government and opposition parties, is therefore simply froth.

[Lord Callanan]

I am not sure that I would use the word “froth”, but we have had a good debate about this and I am sure we will continue to do so.

Parliament authorised our notification of withdrawal in the Article 50 Bill with a clear majority. That position was supported in the general election when we and the Labour Party both said that we would implement the results of the referendum and, in the process, obtained over 80% of the vote. The Liberal Democrats, of course, said that they would not and got 7% of the vote.