European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Bilimoria Excerpts

Report: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 8th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

I agree that that is our job. The Government, and the House of Commons, can be asked to think again. However, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and other noble Lords who have made this point on a number of occasions, will agree with the proposition I am about to make. If the Commons does think again on some of these amendments, and sends them back here, our job is then completed. I think that is the consequence of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and is, surely, the way we should proceed.

[Lord Bilimoria (CB)]

At heart, the noble Lord seems to be saying that it is our duty to implement, regardless, the will of the people nearly two years ago. Does he forget that the Government tried to bypass Parliament and implement Article 50, the date of which we are discussing now? They wanted to do it without consulting Parliament, bypassing it and the people. I do not call that democracy or respect for Parliament at all.

[Lord Grocott]

We have had this argument on many occasions. Parliament can do what it wants to do. I repeat that to the noble Lord, but I am sure he understands it. If Parliament thinks that the proposal which is coming before it is so obnoxious, it can throw it out—it can throw the Government out. It has done that during my parliamentary career and that of many other noble Lords. The idea that Parliament is a pathetic institution that needs protecting from the Government of the day is a fundamental misunder- standing of what is meant by parliamentary democracy.

The House can, of course, pass this amendment if that is the wish of the majority, which I suspect it will be. That will make 12 things for the House of Commons to think again about. However, we have to remember that the Bill has to get on the statute book, and in good time. I do not think there is a lawyer here who denies that for a moment. We keep hearing about cliff edges, so far as the economy is concerned. I do not agree with that, but the words “cliff edge” have gained currency. There is no doubt whatever that, if this Bill does not hit the statute book in good time, there will be an undoubted cliff edge for the legal structure and operation of this country, for the meaning of legislation and where European legislation fits into it.

I therefore hope that we will acknowledge that we have certainly done our duty of making the Commons think again—I ask your Lordships not to represent me as saying that we must not make amendments to the Bill; at no stage have I said that and of course I have not, as I have been here for far too long to make that kind of suggestion. However, this is an important Bill which needs to be passed—

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

No, I did not, and I was not aware that he had done that. I do not think that my noble friend and I would be at loggerheads or in disagreement if I said that the Foreign Secretary does not always get everything right. However, he argues passionately for the democratic mandate which was given to this Parliament and to this Government, and which this Government are determined to carry out.

These amendments are doing no good whatever to this place or to our ability to get the best deal for the British people. If my noble friend Lady Verma said that, like the Prime Minister, she has in all conscience to get the best deal for the country, I suggest that the difference between her and the Prime Minister is that the Prime Minister is elected and the responsibility is hers, and my noble friend should give her her loyalty and support.

[Lord Bilimoria]

My Lords, I have put my name to these amendments, and I will start by putting this in context. When you make a change in business, you do so if there is a burning platform—if you have to make the change—or to make a change for the better, to improve things. Now we keep hearing about equivalence, and about whether we will be able to get terms as good as those we have now when we leave. To follow on from what the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, we have heard comments from other members of the Conservative Party, and not just Boris Johnson. Jacob Rees-Mogg has accused the Business Secretary, Greg Clark, of,

“promoting ‘Project Fear’ by saying that thousands of jobs were at risk if Britain did not minimise friction in trade”.

That is the Business Secretary saying that, and it is called Project Fear. Boris Johnson has said that the proposals for a customs partnership after Brexit are “crazy” and that it will not work.

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[Lord Green of Deddington]

Is the noble Lord aware that this was looked at in some detail during the referendum campaign, and the Norwegian experience was that they had to show severe difficulties in their labour market, it had to be reviewed every three months, and they never used it because they feared retaliation? It is not as simple as that; there is a major issue with the EEA, which is freedom of movement, and outside this House it matters.

[Lord Bilimoria]

We all know the noble Lord’s views on migration and immigration, so I will not even bother to go into that.

I go back to some senior Labour figures and supporters, including former shadow Business Secretary Chuka Umunna, who lashed out at his leadership, the TUC, Chris Leslie, the former shadow Chancellor, and Wes Streeting. Even John McDonnell says:

“Respect the referendum result but get the best deal you can to protect our economy and protect our jobs”.


Again, he explained that that meant being in a customs union and remaining,

“close to the single market”.

Why can the Labour Party not get behind this totally? I find it astonishing.

As the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, said, 80% of our economy is services—the EEA would address the services issue. Financial services account for 12% of Britain’s economy—we would have unfettered access, so all this passporting would be allowed—and 50% of our trade is with the European Union. There is all this talk of going global and agreeing free trade deals with other countries. I have said this before: try agreeing a free trade deal with the USA, or with India without talking about the movement of people. It is all about the movement of people and about tariffs and goods. The CETA with Canada took over seven years to bring about and does not include services. The European Union has said that it is not as easy to get the best free trade deal in the world as Liam Fox has claimed it is. What would Canada say about it? Moving on to equivalence, WTO rules are the worst possible option. I do not think the country would accept crashing out under WTO rules. The no deal option would not be acceptable to Parliament or to the people.

Perhaps the Minister can answer the nub of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Green. We have no control over our borders, yet a 2004 EU regulation allows all EU countries to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they show that they do not have the means to support themselves. Other countries, such as Belgium, repatriate thousands of people a year. We have never used this regulation, yet we say that we have no control over our borders. Why have we not used it? Why has no one spoken about this in the past?

In conclusion, the best option by far would be to remain. To quote the Financial Times:

“The EEA is not an ideal port for a ship seeking shelter from the worst of the upcoming Brexit storm, but … it may be the only port available … docking in this port is perhaps better for the UK than sailing straight into the storm just because it is exciting, insisting on a perfect port and nothing less, or maintaining that there is no impending storm at all”.


Today is VE Day and we are celebrating peace. There has been peace in the European Union for 70 years. I thank the European Union for that. It is not just down to NATO; the European Union has been responsible for that peace. A Spanish MEP, Esteban González Pons, recently made a very powerful speech in the European Parliament. He said that Europe’s past is war; its future is Brexit. He went on: “Brexit teaches us also that Europe is reversible, that one can go backwards in history … Brexit is the most selfish decision taken since Winston Churchill saved Europe with the blood, sweat and tears of the English. Brexit is the utter lack of solidarity when saying goodbye … Europe is peace after the disasters of war. Europe is forgiveness between the French and Germans … Europe is the fall of the Berlin Wall. Europe is the end of communism … Democracy is Europe. Our fundamental rights. Can we live without all of this? Can we give up all of this?” He went on: “I hope at the next Rome summit we talk less about what Europe owes us and we talk more about what we owe Europe after everything Europe has given us. The European Union is the only spring our continent has lived in its entire history”.

Europe is full of faults but I think it is the best option we have, and the role of this House is to challenge and to bring this up as the least bad option. I recommend the amendment to the House.

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[Lord Bilimoria]

My Lords, briefly, I support the amendment of my noble friend Lord Lisvane who, with his vast experience, has come up with a suggestion that is essential, primarily because I feel that the balance between the Executive and the legislature has been truly tested during these Brexit times. This started with the Government trying to bypass Parliament in implementing Article 50, and then trying to not give Parliament a meaningful vote. At every stage, we have to make sure that the power comes back to Parliament.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, said that the Government estimate that there will be 800 statutory instruments just as a result of the EU withdrawal Bill. How many statutory instruments does the Minister think that there will be in total, as a result of Brexit? I have heard somebody say 2,000, but there may be even more than that. It is therefore all the more important that we have proper scrutiny. We cannot entrust it to the Executive; Parliament has got to have the power, and I support my noble friend Lord Lisvane’s amendment.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, I am pleased to support the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, on Amendment 70. It is a very useful first step and if he presses his amendment I will be pleased to join him in the Lobbies. I shall speak to Amendments 70BA and 70BB, both of which are in this group. I am in a pretty precarious position because I am speaking to amendments to a government amendment which has not yet been moved and is subject to the right of pre-emption. If the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, wins then I am wasting my time. I do not want to waste the House’s time although I do not mind wasting my own.

I am a member of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. I do not speak for that committee but I have been a member of it for some time. These amendments take the last opportunity available to the House to persuade the Leader, who has been attentive to the issue of the extent of the relevant period for consideration, to increase the amount of time available to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee to 15 days. Amendments would do that in both Houses. It is not often that the House of Lords tells the House of Commons what to do, but it would be inelegant if the two Houses had different sifting periods.

I do not need to explain the role of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Most Members understand that it takes its duties very seriously and is largely trusted to point out matters of concern under the headings available to it to refer statutory instruments to the House. In my experience, it is a much better system than in the House of Commons. The worry of some members of the committee, which I share, is that in dealing with the flow of statutory instruments occasioned by Clauses 7 to 9 of the Bill, we will end up creating precedents which will in the long term dilute the quality of the scrutiny delivered by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, and I know the chairman is very concerned about that.

Practical experience of the rhythm of how we deal with the flow of existing regulations shows that 10 days is not enough. It is enough for normal business. If we get the compliance we need from government departments in terms of answers to our queries and dealing with outstanding questions as SIs pass through the process and get expeditious returns, the committee is quite confident that in usual circumstances 10 days would be enough, but it is not enough for exceptional circumstances and there is no provision for exceptional circumstances in the legislation as it stands.

Noble Lords might think that this is a very small point, but if the important amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, does not find favour with your Lordships’ House, there will be circumstances where Members on the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee will on day 9 in the consideration of some order which is causing them continuing concern be faced with the question of what to do. Do they say they need to take further and better particulars from government departments and take further evidence from witnesses and risk going over the 10-day period, at which point the House’s responsibility for the issue ends as the Government will take the issue back and the SI will become by default a negative instrument, or do they say they are in some doubt about it and so will err on the side of caution? They do not really have the evidence to be sure that the instrument should be upgraded from a sift of a negative to an affirmative, but if I am unsure I will always by default argue within the committee for recommending an upgrade. If that kind of thing happens, it is going to create even more difficulty for business managers. It will not happen every week, or anything like it, but the Government’s wish to get the statute book in good order by exit day is absolutely understood and members of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee are responsible and diligent and understand the difficulties in doing that, but they are going to be put in a very difficult position.

I do not know where the 10-day limit came from. I think it originally came from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, but there was no back-up about why it chose 10 days as opposed to 15 days, 13 days or anything else. With the help of the excellent staff of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, we have done a grid and have come to the conclusion that it is not possible for the committee to meet twice within 10 days under this new regime, and that will be essential to be sure that exceptional circumstances are dealt with. On the grid we have done, it is clear that 15 days clears us from exceptional circumstances problems. In particular, I am very concerned about consulting devolved legislatures in other parts of the United Kingdom, particularly in relation to Clauses 7 to 9, as this Bill proceeds.

We are taking a big risk. We are going to put at risk the scrutiny process that we rely on day in, day out to keep the quality of the scrutiny process that the House is so rightly concerned about if we do not either make an exception or give some powers for someone to make a case on cause shown for getting an extra couple of days, or an extra five days, on instruments that can be shown to be exceptional. Although the scrutiny committee is doubling its numbers, making provisions and getting support from the Government for doing that, if we do not increase the relevant period for the consideration of sifting, we risk prejudicing the quality of the work that the scrutiny committee can do on behalf of the House in future.