Independent Review of Administrative Law Update
Lord Browne of Ladyton Excerpts(4 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend’s comments on the report. I think the consultation period is six weeks. As soon as we have the responses in, we will work at pace to bring back the Government’s response to that consultation.
On ouster clauses and the decision in Miller II, perhaps I should merely stick to what I have said so far. I do not really want to get dragged into an analysis of Miller II this evening.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]
My Lords, does the Minister agree with the former head of the Government Legal Service, Sir Jonathan Jones, as quoted in the Law Society Gazette, that:
“The review doesn’t bear out the suggestion that there has been significant judicial overreach or a surge of cases in recent years, or that large numbers of unmeritorious cases are being allowed to proceed”?
If so, why does the Statement imply the opposite? Further, does he agree with Sir Jonathan that:
“The proposal that remedies might be available only prospectively will, at least, have to allow for exceptions”
if only to
“avoid the risk of serious injustice to claimants who have already suffered loss or damage”?
Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)
My Lords, on the first point, I respectfully disagree with the comments of Sir Jonathan, whom I respect very much. In conclusion 7, particularly the first two sentences of that paragraph, it seems to me that the panel is clear that there are cases where the courts have gone beyond a supervisory approach.
On the question of potential injustice for those who have suffered, if one is going to have a suspended quashing order or a prospective remedy, as I have made clear, that is something that we are interested in consulting on. Indeed, I would welcome the noble Lord’s involvement in that consultation.
Defamation Bill
Lord Browne of Ladyton Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Hunt of Chesterton
I thank the Minister for his remarks. I support the amendment. I just want to explain that there are important organisations in, for example, engineering and medicine. I trained as an engineer and had discussion with the Institution of Civil Engineers and the Institution of Mechanical Engineers. They have electronic journals, which are used for highly peer-reviewed discussion of important technical issues. Similarly, there are in medicine. The way that the Minister has explained the application of the law will be very useful for those organisations which currently have to spend significant time and money on legal clarification before they publish technical commentary on current issues. That will be useful for many professional bodies, including academic bodies. I warmly welcome the Minister’s remarks and the amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, Amendment 18 provides usual clarification and we support it. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Hunt for engaging in this issue in Grand Committee and for the way in which he has been so useful to your Lordships’ House and to his fellow experts and professionals, particularly in the engineering and medical disciplines.
“(a) is satisfied that it is not reasonably practicable for an action to be brought against the author, editor or publisher;(b) there is a prima facie case that the statement complained of is defamatory; and (c) is satisfied that such person did not know that the statement was defamatory until a claim to that effect was made and did not reasonably believe that there was a good defence to any action brought upon it.”
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, Amendment 20 would require a prima facie case to be made before a claim can be brought against a bookseller. As I had hoped would be the case for a similar amendment in Grand Committee, it allows the Minister to explain in more detail the difference between the 1996 law and the current Bill on the defence of innocent dissemination. I know that the Minister is familiar with my argument in relation to this amendment but if your Lordships will indulge me, despite the lateness of the hour, it is worth at least explaining again in outline what that argument is.
Section 1 of the Defamation Act 1996 was passed, as was explained by the then Lord Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern,
“to provide a modern equivalent of the common law defence of innocent dissemination”.—[Official Report, 2/4/96; col. 214.]
There is no express provision in the Act itself that abolishes the common-law defence of innocent dissemination, and it is clear from paragraph 2.6 of the consultation on the draft Bill, which was published in July 1995, entitled Reforming Defamation Law and Procedure, that, in introducing the Bill into Parliament, the Government intended that the Act, as the then Lord Chancellor said, would supersede, replace and modernise the existing law. The legislation that was eventually passed does not expressly provide for the abolition of the common-law defence, and it is argued that it should not be treated as having done so impliedly.
Lord McNally
The noble Lord will know that we recently set up a Joint Committee on Parliamentary Privilege. To a certain extent, I am flying blind but I certainly think that his point should be drawn to the attention of that committee. I am a member of the Privileges Committee of this House and I will draw his remarks to that committee’s attention as well. It is a very difficult area. As he said, we have had one or two examples of honourable Members and noble Lords pushing the envelope as regards parliamentary privilege, which is one of the reasons why the Joint Committee was set up. I believe that this is the first example of a member of the public abusing it in that way. The noble Lord’s remarks certainly should be looked at by both committees.
As regards the eagle eye of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, and possible contradictions, perhaps I may consult the parliamentary draftsmen on whether he is right. We still have time before Third Reading to iron out any wrinkles that he or others have spotted.
On the central issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, I will try again to see whether he is any more satisfied. As he explained, the amendment is at least in part an attempt to codify the defence of innocent dissemination. We explained in Committee, and previously in the other place, the Government’s concern about a provision such as this, which requires the court, as part of an assessment on jurisdiction, to assess at least to some extent the merits of the case before it. We think that such an approach has the potential to be unnecessarily confusing.
However, I will focus my response on the substantive issue at hand here—the defence of innocent dissemination. We have acknowledged the debate that exists over the terms of Section 1 of the 1996 Act and how this compares to the common law defence. During the Committee stage the noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked me to be “more courageous” in articulating how the Government saw Section 1 and the common law interrelating. When this House was considering what became Section 1 of the 1996 Act in Committee, my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, the Lord Chancellor at the time, indicated that the Act would “supersede” and “replace and modernise” the existing law. There was debate at the time as to quite what the test for innocent dissemination was and whether Section 1 properly captured it. The Government of the day took the view that it did but the debate continues.
Under Section 1, a secondary publisher is at risk of liability once it is put on notice that a statement is defamatory. It is argued that, at common law, the secondary publisher retains the innocent dissemination defence provided it honestly and reasonably believes that a defence is available in respect of that publication. Carter-Ruck on Libel and Privacy describes the Section 1 defence as generally being more generous to secondary publishers. On this issue, however, it suggests that while the position is not without doubt, the better view is that the Section 1 defence is more easily lost than innocent dissemination at common law. Gatley on Libel and Slander takes the view that it is “possible” that the statutory defence is narrower than the common law in this respect.
The Government’s view is that it is right to say that Section 1 has, in effect, superseded the common law defence of innocent dissemination. As I have tried to illustrate, the position at common law prior to the 1996 Act was not as clear as certain lobby groups would like to suggest. We could have explored the option of extending the Section 1 defence but, as with Clause 5, the Government have taken the view that the better approach is to remove the secondary publisher from the process.
We believe that the approach that we have adopted in Clause 10 will provide effective additional protection for secondary publishers such as booksellers. It is consistent with the approach that we have taken elsewhere in the Bill in that the focus is on directing the claimant towards those who are actually responsible for the defamatory material. In the unlikely event that it is not reasonably practicable to sue the author, editor or publisher, Clause 10 allows a claimant to bring an action against a secondary publisher such as a bookseller. However, nothing in the clause would then prevent that bookseller from deploying any defences that may be available to him. We believe that this is a proportionate approach that is fair to all those concerned.
I will say in addition that in my discussions and evidence regarding the point that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, made about the intimidation of booksellers, the sending of a letter on high-quality, posh paper represents a kind of bullying. I hope that this clause and what I have said will give booksellers the protection to resist that and that they can use the protections in the Bill against such intimidation. I have tried to be as candid and clear as I can to the noble Lord about our approach to this. Whether it is courageous enough, I do not know.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for engaging with the spirit of the amendment, to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, for engaging with its detail, and to my noble friend Lord Prescott for seeking the opportunity that it provided for him to exercise another issue. I hope he is satisfied that he has raised an important and serious issue. It is to be hoped that the broader consultation and debate on privilege that the Government are undertaking will deal with that among other things. We certainly should not have a situation where, by our own actions, we defeat the law that we pass.
On this occasion, I say with respect that the Minister has engaged more with the detail of the argument than he has done before. I think that he appreciates that. He and I have been partial in our quotation of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, from when, as Lord Chancellor, he introduced the 1996 Defamation Bill to this House. There are other quotations from the noble and learned Lord that I could play into the debate, which might get us back to the situation that we were in not so long ago in our deliberations on Report—quotations from the same judge that could be used to support two different sides of the argument. However, I have no intention of trying to replicate that interesting Alice in Wonderland environment that lawyers can sometimes create.
The Minister has probably been more courageous on this occasion. As regards the Booksellers Association, I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, said—that this provision applies to other secondary publishers, although I might say in passing that I am not sure that his interpretation of Amendment 17 is correct. However, we will perhaps return to that. I hope that booksellers will be satisfied. I have enormous sympathy for this group of people, who are at the mercy of a collision between two others. They are—if I may say so with respect to website operators—less culpable or less engaged in that process than perhaps website operators could be. There are some website operators whose very business plan encourages them to go to the margins and sometimes beyond the limits of what is allowed without remarks being deemed defamatory. Booksellers are not in that situation. They are one of many groups of people whom we are trying to improve and clarify the law to support.
I shall go back to those whom I have been engaged with to see whether they are satisfied, but, at the very least, we should strive with this Bill to put them in the position that they were in with the defence of innocent dissemination. I think that they will be comforted by the fact that the Minister has made it clear that it was his aim with this—I might say, although it does not sound like it—very welcome provision to codify that defence among other things. They are generally very pleased with the provision but would like it to be perfect—but then would not we all? In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I say with respect to the noble Lord, Lord Black, that I oppose the amendment for the simple reason that it is quite well established, certainly in my experience of the practice of the law, that if a particular element of a judgment which is under appeal is not to be effective, it is open to the party appealing to ask the court to suspend the application of that part pending the appeal. That is the way in which provisions of the law operate in many other areas of life, and I see no reason why this provision should be any different.
The noble Lord, Lord Black, has made it clear that he opposes the provision completely, but thinks that it should be stated explicitly that it can apply only on a final judgment, which means after the last appeal. However, I say with respect to him that publishers or those who hold the cards, as it were, should be in no better a position than anybody else who has a judgment against them pending appeal. I cannot for the life of me imagine that they would not be successful in suspending the application of that part, but it should be matter for the courts on an application for appeal rather than for this Bill.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, Clause 13 currently enables the court to order the operator of a website to remove defamatory material in circumstances where a claimant successfully brings proceedings against the poster of defamatory material online. In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Browne, raised the question specifically of whether this provision could be extended to cover situations where a claimant successfully brings an action against the publisher of offline material, but a secondary publisher refuses to stop distributing, selling or exhibiting material containing the defamatory statement. Clause 10 would prevent an action for defamation being brought against the secondary publisher if it was reasonably practicable to sue the primary publisher. While in the great majority of cases it is likely that secondary publishers would act responsibly and remove material when requested to do so, we consider it desirable to close any possible loophole. Amendment 22 is intended to capture any situation where the material in question is publicly disseminated by a secondary publisher. I beg to move the amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, for the reasons that the Minister spelt out, I strongly welcome this amendment. I thank the Minister for listening so carefully to the argument put before him in Committee and responding in this way.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, I am just nitpicking again but we might as well get this right. I think the amendment should start by saying that in line 4 an “(a)” should be inserted after the word “order”. There is no “(a)” to balance the “(b)” introduced by Amendment 22. As I say, that is nitpicking but I am sure I am right. We better get it right for Third Reading.
“Disapplication of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012
Sections 44 and 46 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 shall not apply in relation to civil actions for defamation or malicious falsehood.”
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, the effect of Amendment 23 would be to disapply the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act in relation to defamation claims. The roots of this debate go back some time.
The roots of this debate go back some time. The Minister will be very familiar with his contribution to the debate on Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill on 27 March 2012, when he gave an assurance to the House on the issue of the disapplication of LASPO, as it has become known, and that in relation to defamation claims it would be dealt with in the context of the Defamation Bill. Repeatedly, our party has sought to persuade the Government that the appropriate way in which to live up the assurance given by the Minister was simply to disapply the provisions of LASPO to defamation claims in the Defamation Bill. However, there have been a number of developments. Since we last tried unsuccessfully in the Grand Committee to persuade the Minister to do that, there has been a commencement provision of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, which has a saving provision in it in relation to publication and privacy proceedings, defined in the commencement order as including defamation. So far, so good. However, there is still the possibility that a further commencement order may be made at some time in the future to commence the provisions of Sections 44 and 46 of the said Act in relation to publication and privacy proceedings.
The amendment provides the Minister with the opportunity to finish speculation about that possibility for ever by, in this provision, disapplying the provisions of that Act to defamation proceedings. If he cannot do that, second best would be to have an assurance that there will be no commencement order in relation to publication and privacy proceedings and defamation at some time in future. What would reinforce the argument for that are the recommendations of the Leveson report, which specifically deal with that issue. However, since we last met in Grand Committee and since the commencement order was passed, we have had another development—the passing in this House some five or six hours ago of Amendment 1 to this Bill, which not only deals with the issue of costs for defamation but deals with early dispute resolution, introducing arbitration proceedings. That has changed the environment in which this amendment was proposed. It is almost certain now that, whatever else happens, the issue of costs in defamation actions will have to be returned to again in the context of this Bill, either to modify the amended Bill as it presently stands or to do something else. I am not suggesting anything at the moment, having successfully stayed out of that debate thus far and hoped to keep myself in that position. I am minded at this stage to treat this to some degree as a marker, recognising that this issue will have to be debated, considered and legislated on in some fashion or other before the Bill can be completed. In the mean time, as this amendment is the only vehicle that I have to make this point, I beg to move.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I think that it was at an early stage of this Bill that I made it very clear that I was concerned with the matter of costs. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, raised that in the debate on Clause 1 today. Everybody has recognised that this has been one of the key issues that have brought our libel laws into disrepute, and editors and journalists as well as ordinary citizens have long warned about the chilling effect of the current libel regime.
Although I do not object at all to the prodding from the noble Lord, Lord Browne, I hope he knows that in this respect he is pushing at an open door. He knows that the way that we have chosen to go was to ask the Civil Justice Council to look at how the Government can introduce a costs protection regime in defamation and privacy cases. The Master of the Rolls will report back to us with its suggestions by the end of March.
In the mean time, the Government have agreed that the provisions of the LASPO Act will not apply until a costs protection regime has been implemented. As the noble Lord indicated, the commencement order for this, which was laid on 18 January, includes a definition of “publication proceedings” and the cases to which the exemption will apply when Part 2 of the Act comes into force on 1 April. I should add that the Government’s definition goes wider than that proposed by Amendment 23.
Under our proposals, defamation and privacy cases will not feature as a permanent exemption from the LASPO Act, as this amendment seeks to apply. Instead, we will ensure that costs protection is in place so that anyone who needs to have security against adverse costs receives it. This will happen later in the year. This costs protection regime will apply to defendants as well as to claimants because defamation and privacy cases can affect academics, NGOs and ordinary people just as much as they can the super-rich and big businesses. The case for costs protection is even greater in these circumstances because an individual of modest means needs the assurance that if they have a good case that they need to pursue or defend, they will be able to do so without the risk of facing unaffordable costs.
The CJC will advise on the details by Easter. When the Government have properly considered the CJC’s proposals, the Civil Procedure Rules will be amended to introduce costs protection. As I say, we hope to be able to do that later in the year, but the current CFA and ATE arrangements will continue in place until then.
I once more reiterate to the House that I understand the concerns about access to justice in these cases. That is why we have taken the action I have outlined and it is why I am confident that we will be able to bring forward fully considered proposals which will ensure a proper and effective costs protection regime. I hope that on that basis the noble Lord will be prepared to withdraw this amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the clarity of his response. I think he knows that my view is that the undertaking in relation to costs protection is part of the answer but that this is a bigger problem than just costs protection. It is my ambition that the Government will be prepared to consider the disapplication of the provisions of the LASPO Act in all respects to the other parts of the challenges of defamation costs. Those costs are at the root of the problem of access to justice, which concerns the ability of people who do not otherwise have the resource to find solicitors who are prepared to take these sorts of actions on conditional fee arrangements and other arrangements. That should be reflected in the whole structure of costs.
I understand the effect of Amendment 1 well enough to know that this issue is not dead. I believe that we will need to return to this matter in some detail to deal with the way that the Bill has now been amended. I hope that the Government will apply their mind to that as quickly as possible and that we will see some movement. I am therefore confident that this is not the last word. It may be the Government’s last word but it will not be the last word on these issues. I shall continue to try to persuade the Minister of what I believe he already agrees with, although I have no desire to speak for him.
In the light of the fact that there will be further and probably better opportunities to deal with this issue in a more holistic fashion, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment at this stage.
Defamation Bill
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Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, I move Amendment 4 essentially on behalf of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, who cannot be here this evening. In the light of what has just been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, I am hoping that when the Explanatory Notes to the Bill are brought up to date when the Bill becomes law, some of these points will be dealt with in them, which is an authoritative way of doing so.
There are two ways in which I can move this amendment: the long way and the short way. Since I detect in my noble friend Lord McNally’s previous reply not exactly bitterness but a sort of cynicism about certain attitudes, I shall do it the short way because I think we can cut the cackle on this by coming to the point that was troubling the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, and Sir Brian Neill.
The amendment turns on a case called Telnikoff in the context of the honest opinion defence in Clause 3. In Telnikoff, the House of Lords decided that it was insufficient for a letter commenting on a newspaper article to refer to the article in order to establish that it was opinion, not fact. The letter had to be recognisable as opinion on its own rather than in the context of the article. My noble friend wrote to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, on 9 January. I shall not repeat what he wrote, nor will I repeat what was said by the Minister. It did not satisfy the noble and learned Lord, which is why he wished to come back to it on Report.
I suggest that if the Minister in his reply can clear up any further confusion by making it clear that in the light of the Bill the Government do not regard Telnikoff as good law, so that if the same facts were to come before the courts under Clause 3(3), a reference to the original newspaper article on which the letter was commenting should be enough to establish the first and second conditions in Clause 3, that would be most helpful. When the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, returns, if he does not find the answer sufficiently clear I will leave it to him to decide what to do at Third Reading. I beg to move.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I support of this amendment and do so by adopting the argument put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, which, I think, in turn adopts what I described as the compelling argument put forward by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, in Grand Committee on 19 December at col. GC 522. I commend the recommendation of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, to the Minister.
In rereading the debate in Grand Committee, I am reminded that he offered a very similar opportunity to the Minister on that occasion, which the Minister scorned. I think that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, was awaiting the letter that became the letter of 9 January 2013. I recollect that in col. GC 528 in the same debate the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, indicated that he might be able, in the same vein as was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Lester, to give the comfort that the noble and learned Lord was seeking. I have to say—this should not surprise anybody—that we were all, I think, persuaded by the noble and learned Lord’s argument in relation to Telnikoff and why it should not still be considered to be the law in the same circumstances. I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to the opportunity that he has on this occasion to resolve this issue once and for all.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I indeed hope that this will be resolved once and for all. If my noble friend is going to withdraw under the temptation that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, can bring this back at Third Reading, I would rather that he tested the opinion of the House. I will try to make as clear as possible on the record the Government’s opinion on this, but I cannot start trying to rerun 20 year-old legal battles.
Clause 3 provides for the honest opinion defence to be available if three conditions are met. Amendment 5 provides that the second condition in subsection (3)— that the statement complained of indicated, whether in general or specific terms, the basis of the opinion—is met if the defendant indicates the subject matter of a letter or article appearing in a newspaper or other publication and the date when it appeared.
On the basis of our discussions with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, on whose behalf my noble friend is speaking this evening, we understand that the core issue underlying the amendment relates to what should be taken into account in determining whether the statement complained of is one of fact or opinion. We consider that this goes to the first condition in Clause 3(2)—that the statement complained of was one of opinion—rather than to the second condition in subsection (3).
At common law, when deciding whether a statement is one of fact or opinion, the court can look at the statement only in its immediate context. So if the statement appears in a news story or in a letter to an editor, the court can look only at the particular news story or the particular letter. The intention behind Amendment 5 is to change this so that the court can also look at other documents that provide a context for the statement.
This is a difficult issue, as is evidenced by the varying judicial opinions that were expressed when this was considered by the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords some 20 years ago in the case of Telnikoff v Matusevitch, to which my noble friend has referred. However, on balance, and with the greatest respect to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, the Government believe that the current law is in the right place. We consider that it should be clear from the document in which the statement appears that the author is expressing an opinion, otherwise a reader cannot know that there is a judgment to be made. They must be entitled to accept as a fact something that is presented as a fact. It follows from this that we cannot accept Amendment 5. Although the Bill abolishes the common law, we can see no reason why the courts would depart from the current approach.
As I have said, a defendant who satisfies the first condition that the statement is one of opinion must also satisfy the second condition that the statement must indicate, whether in general or specific terms, the basis of the opinion. Amendment 4 would replace the word “basis” with the words “subject matter”. The provisions in the Bill reflect the test approved by the Supreme Court in Spiller v Joseph that,
“the comment must explicitly or implicitly indicate, at least in general terms, the facts on which it is based”.
We consider that the word “basis” more accurately captures the essence of that test.
I hope that, on that basis, not only will the noble Lord withdraw this amendment, but that when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, returns to these shores and reads Hansard, he will accept that he has had a good run for his money but that this is where the Government’s view is and where it will remain.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I wish to make a short point. I wholly agree with what my noble friend Lord Lester said about the confusing drafting of Clause 4(2). It is a most barbaric concoction and, coming in an age when we are all trying to make legislation as accessible as possible to other than legal experts, it really will not do. One particular aspect adds to its inadequacy; namely, reference to,
“an accurate and impartial account of a dispute to which the claimant was a party”.
I do not quite see why this clause should apply only to a dispute to which a claimant was a party. Why would it not apply to a matter in which the claimant had an interest? There may be no dispute there but it could be to do with a campaign where again there is no dispute. Apart from the generality, that is a bit of a drawback.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I have no amendment in this group but I wish to speak partly in support of Amendments 6 and 7. I am persuaded, I think, that Amendment 7 may bring more to the clarity of this legislation than Amendment 6. I also wish to express some concerns about Amendments 6 and 7, which require clarification. I hope that we will be able to get that clarification from the Minister and perhaps reflect during the rest of the process of this Bill on whether the total effect of Amendments 6 and 7 will be as is being argued.
I approach this from a slightly different perspective. My reading of the effect of these amendments is that they are designed to improve Clause 4, which I accept, but that they would remove the element of subjectivity in the test of whether the publication was in the public interest. The clause has been substantially amended and, in fact, it has been recast. That has been welcomed, particularly by the promoters of these amendments, as the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, made clear at the outset. This is a much improved clause but, as I understand it, the aim has been to move away from Reynolds but to reflect the case of Flood in the law.
Defamation Bill
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Lord McNally
In relation to Amendment 40, the Defamation Act 1996 gives a defence of qualified privilege to fair and accurate reports of proceedings at a general meeting of a UK public company and to copies of and extracts from various documents circulated to members of such a company.
Clause 7(7) extends this protection more widely to cover reports in relation to companies listed on recognised stock exchanges worldwide and to summaries of such material. This includes material circulated to members of a listed company which relates to the appointment, resignation, retirement or dismissal of directors of the company. The debate has reflected this. In drawing up this Bill, we have constantly challenged about where we are drawing the line and whether it is the right place to draw the line.
Amendment 40 would in addition extend qualified privilege to material relating to the appointment, resignation, retirement or dismissal of the company’s auditors. We do not consider that this would be appropriate. Extending privilege in this way would give protection to reports on contractual material between companies and their auditors such as issues of appointment and dismissal. We consider that this would be an inappropriate intrusion into how companies conduct their business affairs which could impact on business efficiency, and that it is preferable for the focus of Schedule 1 to continue to be on protecting fair and accurate reports of material which is publicly available.
Amendments 41 and 42 would alter the way in which the Bill extends qualified privilege—
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am grateful to the Minister for giving away and apologise to Members of the Committee since I did not take part in the debate on this amendment. It occurred to me as he was speaking, and I draw his attention to the provisions of his own Bill, that the place where he seeks to draw the line and the restriction that he seeks to maintain may well already be overtaken by the provisions of new sub-paragraph (2)(a) which subsection (7) seeks to add to the schedule. I cannot think of any circumstances where the kind of document that the Minister is talking about in such a meeting would not be circulated to the members of the company with the authority of the board of directors of the company. That information will already be privileged as far as I can see. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the Minister’s concern about revealing private commercial business of this nature is already overtaken by the provisions which he seeks to put in the Bill.
Lord McNally
I doubt that. We are moving the extra line to where a company has made a decision to change its auditors, which will be reported to the members of the company. There may be a number of reasons for that, but the report will be suitable for the annual general meeting, and other issues, personal or related to performance, may be covered by it. As I have said, in a number of these areas, we are drawing lines. Where there is a relationship between a company and its auditors, I just wonder whether it would be entirely conducive to good working relations between them if a reason for dismissal which was extremely damaging to the auditors was privileged in this way.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
In the interests of clarity, I am not very pleased with how I put the argument earlier. I can put it much more simply. With respect to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, I think that his amendment is unnecessary. The circumstances that he envisages in this sort of environment are already covered by the provisions of the government amendment that we all support. I cannot imagine that what he seeks to allow to be reported and to attract privilege would be circulated other than with the authority of the directors to the members of the company. I think that it is unnecessary but it may be an issue that needs to be thought about. I am concerned that perhaps in telling the Committee the line that has been adopted and to hold the line at a particular point, the Minister may already have crossed that line in any event by these provisions.
Lord McNally
I will reflect on that but I am also very concerned and do not want to enter a field regarding the professional relationship between auditors—or, perhaps I may respectfully suggest, lawyers—and companies, where there is a barn door left open. I understand, as indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, that the intention of the proposal is to give protection. I am willing to reflect on whether where we have drawn the line is exactly right, and I will listen to expert opinion in this Committee. As a layman, I also feel a slight tingle between the shoulder blades about where we are going in terms of the relationship of professions such as auditors and lawyers with their clients. I, too, would like advice on these matters.
“(a) a statement is published to the public (“the first publication”); and(b) there is subsequently published (whether or not to the public) that statement or a statement which is substantially the same.”
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, the amendment, which is in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Hayter, would apply the single publication rule to the subsequent publication of the same material by any publisher rather than by the same publisher. As it appears to be convenient to the Committee, I shall speak also to Amendments 47A and 47B which stand in our joint names, too, and may make some passing reference to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury. I intend to speak to the amendments comparatively briefly, because this issue was rehearsed in Committee in the House of Commons, but I am seeking further information, if possible, from the Government.
Under the current law as I understand it, each publication of defamatory material gives rise to a separate cause of action which is subject to its own limitation period. That as I understand it, although I have no experience of it, is known as the multiple publication rule. Clause 8, which I support, very sensibly introduces a single publication rule to prevent an action being brought in relation to publication of the same material by the same publisher after a one-year limitation period which will apply from the date of first publication. I have no intention of going through the effect of the six subsections of this clause. They are there for Members of the Committee to read for themselves.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for participating in this short debate on the amendments, and I am grateful to the Minister for his response, even if it was substantially predictable. I am particularly grateful for what I might call the neutral support of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, but why should I expect anything more since that is what I give his amendments? I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, for his overt support of Amendment 44A, and grateful, too, to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, for the benefit of his wisdom. I have to say that I see the strength of his argument to a degree and I am sure that it was reflected in the words of the Minister. I venture to suggest, however, that if that is the nature of his thinking on this issue, if we come back to it in the future, he might apply that logic to Amendment 47A and find that he should be supporting it even if it could be better and more elegantly drafted.
I will look very carefully at what the noble Lord has had to say. I am interested in a thread of consistency running through the way in which we legislate. I am tempted to say that the answer to the example that he gave of republication in a different town as a justification for restricting this single publication rule to the same person lies in Clause 8(4). That could be said to be “materially different”. I say with respect to the Minister that it is not a complete answer. From the point of arguing against myself, I prefer the argument of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, but that may already be accommodated in the potential of subsection (4).
In trying to tease from the Government further specification on “materially different”, it is no answer to say that it will be left entirely to the courts, when subsection (5) seeks to do that in part. There are two examples of what would be relevant to the court in determining whether the manner of the subsequent publication is materially different. I appreciate that it is not intended to be an exhaustive list; we could go round in circles debating it, but it is no answer to suggest that it is a matter entirely for the court when the Government themselves seek to specify it in the clause. We should either put in some or none—we will go back to our earlier debates. I am seeking consistency. I am concerned that I may stir the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and may add time to this. I am trying to do this quickly and will go away and reflect on it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
The amendment, standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Hayter, would confine Clause 10 to actions for damages only. I say at the outset that I support Clause 10. It is a significant improvement in the law, and that position is supported by those who practice commercial activities. The Booksellers Association, to which I will refer later, is a strong supporter of Clause 10, but it does not think that it goes far enough for reasons I am about to give in support of the amendment.
Amendment 50B would restrict Clause 10 to action for damages only. It would provide that a court does not have jurisdiction to hear and determine an action for damages,
“for defamation brought against a person who was not the author, editor or publisher of the statement complained of unless the court is satisfied that it is not reasonably practicable for an action to be brought against the author, editor or publisher”.
The intention is that when the primary publisher cannot be found, the claimant would still be able to sue the secondary publisher for an injunction of some description, a take-down order or for a book to be removed, even if they were not able to pursue an action for damages.
I am in the fortunate position of being familiar with the Government’s position on this amendment because it was moved in the House of Commons. The Government thought that it could lead to a situation that even when it is reasonably practicable for an action to be brought, the secondary publisher would end up having to defend the claim, although they would not be liable for damages if the claimant were successful. Nevertheless, the Government said that they would give further consideration to this issue. The response from that further consideration may well be Clause 13, which was not there at the time of that debate. I cannot anticipate fully what the Minister will say, but I have an expectation that he may refer to Clause 13.
Clause 13 merely provides in the context of a judgment that the court may order a statement to be taken down. It would be more appropriate to make it clear that claimants retain the right to bring an action when the remedy sought is not damages. Again, this could perhaps be better drafted to achieve that, and I am content to discuss that. If the Committee can be persuaded to support the principle of this argument, I urge the Government to take the argument seriously.
For ease of dealing with these three amendments that I have grouped together, Amendment 50D is a consequential amendment on Amendment 50B and provides that nothing in Clause 10,
“prevents a court from granting any injunction or order requiring a person to cease publishing a defamatory statement”.
It may be unnecessary, but it is coupled with it. Again, I have the benefit that the Minister who dealt with this debate in the House of Commons indicated that further consideration would be given to this issue, too, but it may be that the further consideration has resulted in Clause 13, at least in part.
Amendment 50C is an inelegant amendment. It seeks to do something that I do not think that I have ever seen before in legislation, and it can be criticised for that reason. However, because of the nature of these proceedings—we are encouraged by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, to treat them as some form of seminar discussion—I have retabled this amendment. It mixes up the substance of the issue with the issue of jurisdiction. I understand that, and I am happy to take on the chin that criticism of it. However, if we move towards each other in relation to this, or if the Minister can give a better explanation than there has been otherwise about a specific aspect of this argument, and we go beyond this in agreement, I am sure that this amendment can be redrafted in another way.
At the heart of this amendment is a belief on the part of the Booksellers Association and those who advise it—indeed, there may be people in your Lordships’ Committee who have advised it at one time or other; happily, I have not—that the innocent dissemination defence, which existed previous to the 1996 Act, as a matter of fact and practice is now repealed effectively, although perhaps that was not the Government’s intention. The debate in the other place was interesting because the then Minister who dealt with it conceded in the debate that there were different views on the effect of Section 1 of the Defamation Act 1996 as to whether the defence that it provided was weaker than or as good as the innocent dissemination defence. With this short debate that I hope we will have, I seek to elicit from the Government a clarification of their position as to whether there is a difference between Section 1 of the 1996 Act and the effect of the Bill, taken together, on the one hand and the pre-1996 defence of innocent dissemination on the other, and why the Government believe that this combination that we are now presenting to secondary publishers is better than what they had before 1996.
The amendment requires that a prima facie case should exist. Although Section 1 of the Defamation Act 1996 is available to booksellers as a defence, the Booksellers Association contends that it is weaker than a common law defence of innocent dissemination, which that section replaced. As I have said before in Committee, the Minister who then dealt with it substantially conceded that point but only went as far as to say that there were differing views on the section as to whether one was weaker than the other and did not express what the Government’s position was. I think that there is at least a reasonable expectation on the part of secondary publishers that the Government should nail their colours to the mast and say what they are creating here by this process.
The Booksellers Association also contends that under Section 1, booksellers and other secondary publishers lose the protection if they know or have reason to believe that a publication contains any defamatory statement, whereas under the previous defence of innocent dissemination a defence would have existed if the bookseller had a reasonable belief that the alleged defamatory material was not libellous, having in most circumstances received assurances from lawyers that one of the defences applied.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I will take all three amendments together as they have been grouped. In doing so, I will refer first to Amendments 50B and 50D. They seek to provide that Clause 10 should prevent an action for damages for defamation being brought against a person who was not the author, editor or publisher of the statement complained of unless the court is satisfied that it is not reasonably practicable for an action to be brought against the author, editor or publisher, but should not prevent a court from granting any injunction or order requiring a person to cease publishing a defamatory statement.
As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, indicated, the amendments were originally tabled in Committee in the other place by the honourable Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme. His concern was that circumstances could arise where a claimant who had successfully brought an action against the author of defamatory material on a website was left in the position of being unable to secure removal of the given material. This situation might arise as a result of the fact that an author may not always be in a position to remove material which has been found to be defamatory from a website, and the new defence in Clause 5—together with the more general protection provided to secondary publishers in Clause 10—might prevent the website operator from being required to do so. As the noble Lord acknowledged, it was precisely for this reason that the Government introduced Clause 13 into the Bill on Report in the other place.
In an offline context where a successful action is brought against an author, editor or publisher and a secondary publisher is made aware of the successful action, we believe that in the great majority of cases the secondary publisher would act responsibly and remove the defamatory material from sale.
However, there are issues that still appear pending and this point has been reiterated by my noble friend Lord McNally and made by me as well. We are listening in great detail to the debates and discussions in Committee. As has been illustrated from the Government’s perspective in the other place, appropriate clauses and amendments are being introduced to refine this particular Bill if and when they are needed.
Amendment 50C is identical to the one tabled on Report in the other place. It was said then that it was in part an attempt to codify the defence of innocent dissemination. As the Government explained then, Clause 10 is about jurisdiction. To require the court, as part of an assessment on jurisdiction, to assess the merits of the case before it in the manner proposed would be highly unusual and potentially confusing. Furthermore, it would involve additional evidence and expense, which would be wasted in the event that it was held that it was reasonably practicable for the claimant to pursue the primary publisher. Such arguments are properly pursued once it is established that the court indeed has jurisdiction. Subsection (1)(c) would also put the onus on the claimant to show what was in the knowledge of the secondary publisher, which, as well as being practically very difficult, would be a significant shift in the current law.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, drew to the Committee’s attention the fact that there is a debate over the terms of Section 1 of the 1996 Act—the noble Lord, Lord Lester, referred to this as well—and how that compares to the common-law defence. A question was raised about the Government’s position. The Government believe that it is preferable to adopt the approach in Clause 10 of directing claimants towards those who are actually responsible for defamatory material. This reflects the approach that we have taken elsewhere in the Bill. In the unlikely event that it is not reasonably practicable to sue the author, editor or publisher, Clause 10 allows a claimant to bring an action against a secondary publisher, such as a bookseller. However, nothing in the clause would then prevent that bookseller from deploying any defences available to him them.
We believe that this approach strikes a fair balance that provides substantial protection for secondary publishers while not denying claimants a means of redress where this is deemed appropriate. I hope that on that basis of these explanations, the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, for his intervention and for indicating the value of at least one of my amendments in a broader, international sense. I think that that will help to concentrate our minds on the value of looking with some care at the provisions of Clause 10. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, for his reminder that we should be seeking a direction of travel away from what may inadvertently have been created by the effect of Section 1 of the 1996 Act on the common-law defence that existed.
I am grateful, too, to the Minister, although I have to say that I am disappointed in his articulation of the Government’s position. There is a lack of courage on their part if, even in these circumstances where we are all agreed on the direction of travel, they are not willing to say that the law in relation to secondary publishers is moving in the direction of undermining the chilling effect of the behaviour of lawyers, who often act for very wealthy clients, intimidating small people from pursuing business because to some degree it involves an expression of free speech.
The appropriate response to this short debate is to indicate to the Minister that I will go away and think about this again. With regard to the first of our amendments, Amendment 50B, after this debate I am minded to consider whether Section 13 should be broader in scope. That may be the answer to the problem and a more appropriate way of dealing with it—not to restrict it only to secondary publishers and the web but to seek that it be broader in scope. That might be a simpler way of addressing at least part of the problem.
On the pre-1996 common-law position being better and less chilling than the present situation, even when improved by Clause 10, I am not sure that I will abandon my attempt to persuade the Government that something must be done. I now have the difficult job of solving how one can do that without challenging the court to deal with jurisdiction and the substance of the case at the same time. My limited experience of practising before the courts—limited by being elected to the House of Commons, although it was 20 years’ experience—suggested that once one started to make arguments about preliminary issues, one often got far into the substance of the case to do. In making arguments before the court, it was quite difficult to do the sort of thing that we suggest is possible here, by keeping these two issues separate. Apart from anything else, you often do not understand the arguments until you understand the facts and where the credible argument likely lies in a set of circumstances well enough. Anyway, never mind that.
I will go away and think about this again. We may have room for some progress in extending the scope of Clause 13. I am not sure that I will ever persuade the Government to move beyond, with all due respect, a slightly timid position on innocent dissemination, but we may have to return to this issue on Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Disapplication of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012
Sections 44 and 46 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 shall not apply in relation to civil actions for defamation, malicious falsehood, breach of confidence, privacy or publication proceedings.”
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, Amendment 51C would disapply the LASPO Act in relation to defamation proceedings and Amendment 51D would apply one-way costs shifting to defamation proceedings. Both the amendments are probing amendments. I have some sympathy with the Minister in being prodded on this issue again. He may have thought that he had seen it off with his letter of 10 December and the assurances that he has repeatedly given us, but I am afraid that I shall invite him to discuss again costs in relation to defamation.
As noble Lords will be aware, and as I think the Minister is acutely aware, this issue was addressed during the passage of the LASPO Bill, when calls were made to disapply it in relation to defamation and privacy proceedings. Assurances were given by the Minister that this would be addressed in the Defamation Bill. I do not seek to keep him specifically to that assurance, because I suppose that, on one view, a substantial amount of water has passed under the bridge since that debate and many other things are going on. Whatever intention other noble Lords may have in the debate that will ensue on this, I have no intention of transgressing into the debate about the Leveson recommendations and their consideration in tri-party talks; I have managed until now not to mention “Leveson” anywhere in your Lordships’ House, and I had intended to keep it that way.
Throughout the passage of this Bill, we have had further assurances that something will be done to address the cost of defamation proceedings, and the Government recently gave a commitment that LASPO would not apply to defamation until they had resolved the situation in relation to costs. That stay of execution, as it were, is very welcome. Our amendments are, however, designed to elicit further information from the Government as to the timing of these proposals and what they will consist of, to the extent that the Minister is in a position to share that information with me.
I want to make one very specific point to the Minister which I hope he will address when he responds. I have before me his letter of 10 December 2012, which was very welcome and very helpful in covering a number of issues before the Committee convened to consider this Bill in detail. Under the heading “Cost Protection in Defamation and Privacy cases” it sets out that,
“the Government is keen to provide some form of cost protection so as not unduly to damage the interests of impecunious parties. The Government has asked the Civil Justice Council (an independent advisory body, chaired by the Master of the Rolls) to advise on this by the end of March 2013”.
So I realise that we will have to be patient until the end of March 2013 to see what the council under the chairmanship of the Master of the Rolls advises. In order to instruct those deliberations, we have the benefit of annexe A to the letter, which sets out the terms of reference of the Civil Justice Council’s remit.
I am limited in my understanding of all of this, never having practised in this jurisdiction, but I understand that cost protection is designed to protect a party from the liability to pay the other side’s costs if their case fails. If my case fails, cost protection is designed to protect me from the liability to pay costs, or to reduce my liability. That addresses half of the problem. The serious part of the problem is how does one deal with the impecunious client who does not have the ability to institute proceedings in the first place if LASPO and the Jackson reforms are applied to defamation? How does one encourage lawyers to take on cases on some form of contingency basis, in the light of the application of LASPO and the Jackson reforms? The Government may believe that that is dealt with through the cost protection order process, but I am not satisfied that it is. Will the Minister address that issue? I beg to move.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, I cannot clearly say whether I do or do not support these two amendments as they have all sorts of ramifications and implications. What is common ground between the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, is that the position of not only the impecunious would-be litigant, but that of the not-well-off would-be litigant in relation to defamation, whether as plaintiff or defendant, is astonishingly unsatisfactory. It makes this branch of law, more than any other, one in which equality before the law is frankly mythical, unless one finds an extraordinarily public-spirited solicitor who will in effect act for nothing if his client’s case collapses. Even then, there would be costs possibilities for the poor litigant, whether as defendant or plaintiff, in that he or she may end up having to pay the other side’s costs. All I am doing is sympathising with my noble friend Lord McNally in having to answer these two issues. At the moment, there is no ready answer, although the idea of changing the recently passed LASPO legislation for defamation has its own problems if one believes, as I do, that the methods of paying lawyers under the conditional or contingency fee system have led to great problems of public interest. That is a rather ineffectual contribution to the debate on these two amendments.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, the Minister shares with me the view that this is a fiendishly complicated challenge. I welcome his reluctance to embroil us in a debate on the recommendations of Lord Justice Leveson’s report but I hope that before Parliament’s deliberations on the Defamation Bill are concluded, we will know the recommendations of the Civil Justice Council and have some clarity on the way forward in relation to Lord Justice Leveson’s report and, in particular, his recommendations about costs in defamation actions. We will then be at least in a position of knowing that when the seal is put on the Defamation Act—which broadly we all support and consider as progress in the development of the law—we will not have to revisit the issue quickly thereafter. That would be nonsensical.
I know that sometimes it is not possible get all stars aligned but surely it must be possible with draft legislation of this nature, where there is such substantial agreement, for parties to timetable the proceedings of Parliament in such a way that we maximise the possibility of coherence and consistency rather than minimise it. I hope that we do not get caught up in the demands of people who are timetabling other business, the usual channels and so on, and are railroaded into a timescale on this Bill which makes our deliberations look foolish shortly after we have concluded them.
I am grateful to the Minister for his response. We will certainly return to this issue on Report; there is no question about that. The application of the LASPO Act to these proceedings sits in the context of a very clear undertaking, which we intend that the Minister and the Government will live up to. We will come back to that and I hope that we will have more specification of some description, or at least that the tripartite talks may have concluded in relation to Lord Justice Leveson’s recommendations. Pending that day, I will keep the rest of my powder dry and, for the moment, seek the leave of the Committee to withdraw the amendment.
“Defamation county courts: special jurisdiction
(1) The Lord Chancellor may, with the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice, by order made by statutory instrument designate any county court as a defamation county court and confer on it jurisdiction (its “special jurisdiction”) to hear and determine such descriptions of proceedings—
(a) relating to defamation, or(b) ancillary to, or arising out of the same subject matter as, proceedings relating to defamation,as may be specified in the order.(2) The special jurisdiction of a defamation county court is exercisable throughout England and Wales, but rules of court may provide for a matter pending in one such court to be heard and determined in another or partly in that and partly in another.
(3) An order under this section providing for the discontinuance of any of the special jurisdiction of a defamation county court may make provision as to proceedings pending in the court when the order comes into operation.
(4) Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting the ordinary jurisdiction of a county court.
(5) The Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales may nominate a judicial office holder (as defined in section 109(4) of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005) to exercise his functions under this section.”
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, this amendment is designed to probe the Government on the possibility of creating a defamation county court. The idea of having such a court has already been discussed in a previous session of your Lordships’ Committee. It was a recommendation of the Joint Committee, at least in a pilot sense. At this time of day, I shall spare your Lordships the pain of having to listen to me read the whole of the paragraph that refers to this from the Joint Committee’s report.
However, for the purposes of the record it is paragraph 87, which I will read in short. It starts with a sentence that I think we would all agree with:
“Some witnesses argued that costs would be reduced if libel cases were generally dealt with by county courts rather than the High Court”.
It goes on to make a good argument, concluding:
“The Ministry of Justice should implement a pilot scheme to determine how this proposal might work in practice”.
This amendment is our attempt to set a statutory framework for such a pilot scheme. The idea behind it is to significantly reduce the costs of defamation proceedings; an issue that we have agreed is a shared concern.
The drafting of this amendment will prove not to be perfect but it is intended to be a probe. However, it is based on the Patents County Court. By way of background, the Patents Court is not a county court in the usual sense but a specialist court for the resolution of intellectual property disputes. It was originally set up in 1990 but was set up under its most recent guise in late 2010, with the aim of providing efficient intellectual property case trials as an alternative to costly and time-consuming High Court trials.
The key provisions of the Patents County Court are that costs are on a fixed scale, capped at £50,000, while the damages that the court can award are limited to £500,000 and each trial is aimed to be concluded—wait for it—within two days. The court has recently started giving non-binding opinion, generally during the case management conference stage of proceedings and before trial, as to the likely outcome of the case. I suspect that all noble Lords in this Committee would welcome that environment for the early and swift deliberation of cases that got to trial, never mind the issue of some pre-trial provision or alternative dispute resolution, which noble Lords have previously discussed.
When this idea was discussed during our previous session, the Minister said that he would go away and think about the idea. With this amendment I am providing an opportunity for the Minister to tell us where his thinking presently is. For the purposes of the record, the exchange that I am referring to was with the noble Lord, Lord Faulks during the first day in Committee at col. GC 458. I beg to move.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, I strongly support allowing county courts to hear all but the most serious defamation cases. As the noble Lord has said, it was a recommendation of the Joint Committee; indeed, it was the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and I who advocated it very strongly on that committee. Quite apart from the complexity of the law and the arcane procedures that we have developed, one of the main reasons why costs have become so high in these cases has been the development of a highly specialist Bar and specialist solicitors, all conducting cases very expensively exclusively in the High Court.
The simplification of the defences in this Bill, coupled with the simplification of procedure and more extensive and earlier case management, should make it possible to reduce the complexity of defamation cases substantially. In those circumstances, the development of county court expertise with designated judges to manage and hear these cases would make justice, importantly, more local, quicker, cheaper, simpler, and in all ways more accessible. Of course there will always be cases that are complex, difficult and paper-heavy. They will require High Court expertise and the attention of specialist High Court judges. However, I hope that for the generality of cases county courts will become the norm and that therefore the cases will become simpler to sue, to defend and to resolve. We recommended trialling county courts for defamation cases; I ask that that happens soon.
Lord McNally
My Lords, it has taken me till the fourth day of this Committee to rumble the noble Lord, Lord Browne. Beneath his metropolitan, urbane and sophisticated exterior, there is a canny Scot. My absolute copper-bottomed assurances on dealing with costs are met with a clear assurance that that will not be delivered without him battering us on to deliver. Now he notices a bandwagon on county courts that was rightfully set rolling by the Committee and he immediately claims it as his own. I can see him now, ticking off in his memoirs the influences that he has had on the Bill. I hope that when he gets home tonight he will read to his wife the passage about “metropolitan, urbane and sophisticated”.
Let me be clear that defamation cases can be started in a county court at the moment, although both parties must agree to this in writing. That is the position under Practice Direction 7A to the Civil Procedure Rules, but I freely acknowledge that it may be that we should revisit those procedure rules. We will give the issues involved very careful attention, and I sincerely welcome this very useful debate and the suggestions that have been made. The Lord Chancellor already has broad powers to allocate business between the High Court and the county courts. When the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, raised the matter earlier in our proceedings, I think I mentioned that the Lord Chancellor has expressed his interest in this idea. The Lord Chancellor’s broad powers are under Section 1 of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990. The provisions in the Crime and Courts Bill to establish a single county court, which the House has approved, will preserve this power.
I therefore assure noble Lords that we are very interested in this idea, but it does not need primary legislation to carry it forward. If we consider the use of county courts to be appropriate, the necessary procedural changes to enable that to happen can be put in place. I hope that that is a firm enough indication of direction of travel. I tore up my notes and changed them to that very positive response because of the persuasive case that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, made in opening this debate. In the mean time, I hope that he will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I am grateful for the support of the noble Lords, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames and Lord Mawhinney, but I am not surprised by it because the amendment draws support already from the report of the Joint Committee. I am grateful also for the overt support of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury.
I have to thank the Minister for his flattering if somewhat inaccurate and probably libellous description of me. It is unworthy of him to suggest that I am a bandwagon-jumper in any sense. I will privately produce evidence to him that this is an issue which I have been discussing with members of the legal profession in England in various guises for some months now, because it is not entirely what he and the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, described and discussed. This very specific provision is presented in this fashion, taking advantage of the specialist Patents Court, to make another criticism that I think the Minister will have to face should he seek our shared ambition of moving these cases to the county court—that is, there are already specialist judges who do these cases, but they are in the High Court. There will be, I predict, resistance on the part of the judiciary, among others, who will say that this difficult, complicated work, which requires High Court judges, has to be kept there.
The reason why I presented the amendment in this fashion, having thought about it for some time—since long before the exchange between the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, and the Minister took place—is that I cannot think of a more complicated area of law and fact than patent law. If a specialist court at county court level, with specialist judges, works for that area of the law, then I believe it can work for defamation.
I am also told that it is in the nature of the legal profession that our very senior judges tend to have been in the profession for a period of time and retire. I am not entirely sure what further lifespan on the Bench—that is the wrong phrase—what further time on the Bench the judges in the High Court who are specialists on defamation have. Although I do not know this, the suggestion was made to me that there is a probability that they will retire, or at least that a significant number of them may, within a comparatively short time. I am not sure whether that is right but they will have to be replaced sometime, and it should not be beyond the ability of the legal profession to produce judges at county court level who have this specialism.
I am not entirely sure whether the Minister is right that the creation of a specialist court or courts, such as the patent courts, does not require primary legislation. If it does not then I am interested to know why the patent courts were created by primary legislation if we can create specialist county courts without it, but maybe the law has been changed since they were created.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
Might the noble Lord encourage the Government to look at the possibility of empowering registrars of county courts to do much more of the preliminary work? They could have a much bigger role, but again that might require primary legislation.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am grateful for that intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. The best that I can say is that I am sure the Minister has heard that suggestion, and when he is deliberating further on this potential development I am sure that he will take into account.
I am reassured that this is sufficiently high among the Government’s priorities to be a possibility—that is the best that we can expect at this stage. We will continue to keep an eye on this issue while the Bill is before the House.
Lord McNally
The noble Lord asked a specific question on the powers to create a court in this area. The amendment is clearly based on the provision for the Patents Court in the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, which is being repealed as part of the provisions of the Crime and Courts Bill for establishing a single county court. It is superfluous because powers already exist to allocate jurisdiction as between county courts or, in future, in the single county court and the High Court under Section 1 of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990.
This also gives me the opportunity to withdraw my scandalous assertion; I was just getting a bit demob happy in asserting that the noble Lord jumps on bandwagons. I stick by “metropolitan, urbane and sophisticated”, though, because I know how much trouble that will give him back home in Scotland.
Lord Mawhinney
My Lords, at the end of his last contribution to the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, the Minister talked about the importance of procedural change. This amendment is about procedural change. The committee got frustrated at times because to us the single most important thing was cost and bringing this legislation to literally millions of people who are at present prevented from getting coverage by the law. I will not take the time of the Committee at this late hour to read into the record the evidence that the Minister gave when he came, but we were encouraged that he was of a similar mind to us. The Government have the power to interact with the senior levels of the legal profession and the judiciary to require them to do things. We were hugely impressed by the cost attached to the management structures of the judiciary at this time. They could be streamlined, enhanced and quickened, and all of that pulls down the cost and therefore makes legislation available to millions who at the moment are priced out of the market.
I know my noble friend is going to tell me about the Master of the Rolls. I understand all of that. I have noted very carefully that he hopes to be in a position to press a button of some description by October of this year and I am sure we are all going to hold him to that. But I cannot let this opportunity pass. This looks on the face of it a fairly obscure, perhaps mildly boring, not very important amendment but it may be just about the most important amendment that the committee made and it comes with a lot of feeling, a lot of passion and a lot of importance. If Parliament does not legislate to make remedy available for the millions, it is legitimate to question what Parliament is all about. If my noble friend will accept this amendment and then put his shoulder to the wheel and push aside those who will line up to thwart him in every direction, he will have the thanks not only of our committee, not only of this Committee, not only of the House and Parliament; he will have the thanks of millions and millions of people who will look at our deliberations tonight and think, “It is all very well for them but we do not have any say in this procedure at the moment”. I strongly commend this amendment to the Committee.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, on behalf of the Opposition, I wish strongly to associate myself with the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney. It must be possible for Parliament through this Bill to find a conduit to the appropriate Rolls committee to express the unanimous view of Parliament that access to justice in this area must be improved and it can only be improved if we reform the way in which these cases are conducted to reduce the cost and delay of them. I am not entirely sure whether this is the appropriate way to do it and I do not think it matters to the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, whether it is. There must be a way of doing that without transgressing on the appropriate separation of powers. There must be some way of getting that message across. It is undoubtedly the case for those of us who have practised before the courts, whether in this jurisdiction or in other jurisdictions, that whether there is a specialist Bar, whether there is a complicated area of the law, whether there are litigants with deep pockets, the one thing that is most important to the efficient conduct of business is the maximum appropriate judicial intervention to concentrate the minds of parties on the real issue and to get them to resolve those issues in the minimum of judicial time. If we can find some way of doing that, while at the same time ensuring that those who do not have deep pockets have a right to redress, we will have done our work. Raising the bar, simplifying and explaining the defences and preparing the best suite of defences the world has ever seen will mean nothing if all we have done is recreate the issues of dispute for the same tediously long processes and complicated debates that eat up vast amounts of people’s time and resources. They also destroy lives—much more quite often than the remarks that were made about them in the first place.
Defamation Bill
Lord Browne of Ladyton Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn)
My Lords, if there is a Division in the House, the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes. This is the Grand Committee on the Defamation Bill, and we are resuming debate on Amendment 23A. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, moved the amendment, the Question was put, and the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, adjourned discussion after about 50 minutes. We are now going to discuss Amendment 23A, which says:
“Page 3, line 21, leave out ‘a website’ and insert ‘an electronic platform’”.
However, I know that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, wishes to say something before we start.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I am very grateful to your Lordships for allowing the possibility of raising an issue that is not related to the group that we are presently discussing, but which is directly relevant to an issue that we thought we had perhaps put to bed, in terms of this Committee’s deliberations, on the previous occasion. To my surprise, on about 10 January, it was reported on the BBC that Rutland County Council, taking advantage of the general powers that have been granted to it by Section 1 of the Localism Act 2011, intended to sue for defamation three of the members of the council. This was extensively reported on the BBC and locally in the Rutland area. Happily, the Rutland County Council, to the edification of everyone interested in this, has published the legal opinion on which it based this intention on its website.
Without going into the detail, it appears that the council’s lawyers have advised it that Section 1 of the Localism Act has repealed the judgment of the House of Lords in Derbyshire County Council v Times Newspapers Ltd by granting a power for local authorities, in these circumstances, to behave as if they were individuals. I have no idea whether that is right or wrong; but whether in fact that has happened ought to be explored before we close our deliberations in Committee on this Bill. I merely draw this to the attention of Members of the Committee, in particular to the Minister, with the request that he has this matter investigated and reports back to us before we conclude our deliberations. In the mean time, I will ensure that all the information I have managed to glean over the past couple of days is sent electronically to the Minister’s private office. I do not intend to say anything further.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
Assuming it is permissible for me to do so, I will say in response—because I was involved in the case—that I do not agree with Rutland at all, for reasons that I will go into hereafter, if necessary.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, the amendment is grouped with Amendment 27 in the names of by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville and the noble Lord, Lord Allan, to which I shall also speak.
My amendment is at least easy to understand. It would simply add the words “and unlawful” on page 4, so that the notice of complaint under Clause 5(6) would require the complainant to specify a name, set out the statement concerned and explain why it is defamatory of the complainant—and, I would add, “and unlawful”—and then specify where on the website the statement was posted and contain such other information as may be specified in regulations.
Amendment 27 is much more prescriptive. I will not develop that argument because it is not my amendment, but Members of the Committee will notice it sets out in some detail what it is that the complainant is required to explain. Looking at the two amendments, mine is much less prescriptive than Amendment 27, although that does not make it necessarily better. The amendment gives effect to the recommendation of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, on which I serve, that,
“the threshold for a Clause 5 notice should be elevated to ‘unlawful’, which would also ensure consistency with the E-Commerce Directive and the Pre-Action Protocol for defamation”.
The committee noted that the Government said in response that they were,
“concerned that to adopt the higher threshold would overcomplicate the process”,
because,
“requiring complainants to provide details of why they consider the posting to be unlawful, rather than just defamatory, would make it more difficult for a layman to make a complaint without first having sought legal advice, and would add to the cost and difficulty involved”.
The Government sought to distinguish,
“between the purposes of the E-Commerce (EU Directive)”—
which uses the word unlawful—and Clause 5, so as to seek to “justify” the apparent “inconsistency”.
Under article 19 of the e-commerce directive, a website operator acting as an intermediary hosting material is potentially liable once notified that a statement is unlawful, as it would be under my amendment. By contrast, a website operator is not liable under Clause 5, provided that it does not post the defamatory material. The Government say that the website operator acts merely as a middleman or go-between and does not need to consider the merits of the complaint in order to protect itself from liability. However, the Joint Committee on Human Rights concluded that:
“We are not satisfied with the Government’s distinction in this matter. We think there is a real risk that website operators will be forced to arbitrate on whether something is defamatory or lawful, and will to readily make decisions on commercial grounds to remove allegedly defamatory material rather than engage with the process. As drafted, Clause 5 risks removing material from the internet, which, although it may be defamatory, may be lawful if a relevant defence applies. Material which is lawful may be suppressed because website operators are served with such notices”.
The Libel Reform Campaign supports this amendment, which allows me to make an apology to both the noble Lord, Lord May of Oxford, and to it. Last time in Committee, I became grumpy when the noble Lord, Lord May, appeared, on its behalf, to suggest that the “responsible publication” defence in Clause 4 was not good enough. I think there was a misunderstanding. I have now received the briefing from the Libel Reform Campaign and realise that it supported the amendments being made to Clause 4 and that the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord May, were not intended to say anything other than that. Because of the sensitivity of the matter, I thought it right to make that clear at this stage.
I am trying to keep this brief, and not succeeding very well, but I should also add one other point. I need to quote the Ministry of Justice’s consultation on the Clause 5 regulations—the regulations, not Clause 5 as it is—because it seems inconsistent with the Government’s position on my amendment. It says, at paragraph 9, that:
“We propose that the following should be included in a notice of complaint (this is a combination of what is already listed in clause 5, and other points that we think should be in the regulations)”.
Here the Ministry is telling us what they think should be in the regulations. It has,
“the complainant’s name and a means of contact … specific information to direct the operator to where the post can be found on the website … the statement complained of together with an explanation of how the statement is defamatory of the complainant, including (as appropriate) details of any factual inaccuracies or unsupportable comment within the words complained of”,
and then other matters as well.
The Government apparently have it in mind that the regulations will require quite a lot from the complainant. I agree with that, but I am troubled that unless my amendment inserting the phrase “and unlawful” is accepted, the draft regulations will go further than is permitted by Clause 5. Although that sounds very technical, it is quite important to ensure that that is not so. It does not seem to be enough that the complainant can simply say that the complaint is defamatory. All that “defamatory” means is that the complainant is saying that it is not true and it affects reputation. That does not seem to me enough—and it does not seem to the Government to be enough, considering their view of the regulations—for that to trigger responsibility on the website operator. At least the complainant should have thought about whether it is not merely harming reputation but also in some way unlawful. This does not have to be done with great legal analysis, but there should be some such indication.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I do not wish to interfere with the noble Lord’s attempt to be brief. Will he consider the observations that he has made, which he draws from paragraph 9 of the consultation document of which we have all been sent a copy, in the context of the words of the Bill itself—in particular, the words of Clause 5(6)(b) which require that the complainant in the notice, among other things,
“sets out the statement concerned and explains why it is defamatory”.
Would that not be a basis for a set of regulations that expand on it in the way in which this paragraph sets out?
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, that may be so, in which case I made a false point on that. However, my main point is that it is not enough—and the regulations seem to accept this, in draft—to simply say that it is defamatory. It must in some way indicate that it is unlawful. That is probably common ground in the way in which I read the draft regulations. If that is so, and that is what we are told in our reply, it may well be that my amendment will not be necessary.
In my attempt to be brief, I appear to be arousing too much interest. I give way to my noble friend.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for that explanation. Our noble friend Lord Ahmad has been doing a superb job, and I have been immensely impressed. I had assumed that my noble friend Lord McNally was silent because he was serving time in the penalty box after voting against the Government yesterday.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, those of us on this side of the Committee welcome this amendment because it follows the advice and recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and the advice of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, but mostly because an amendment—identical in effect if not in words—was moved by my honourable friend Rob Flello in Committee in the House of Commons and was rejected by the Government. The reason given by the then Minister Mr Djanogly was that:
“The Government consider that the detailed and technical nature of the proposed regulations, and the fact that they will govern procedural issues, means that the negative resolution procedure is more appropriate, and provides the appropriate level of parliamentary scrutiny”.—[Official Report, Commons, Defamation Bill Committee, 21/6/12; col. 122.]
That sentence, in itself, argued for why that was exactly the wrong procedure for these regulations. I am pleased to see that the Government have accepted that that was the case and have now welcomed this provision into the Bill.
Having listened to the debate on Clause 5, I do not share the level of guilt that the noble Lord has for having had his colleague deal with it. I am delighted that my noble friend Lady Hayter has agreed to do this. She is well equipped for the job and, indeed, has much greater experience than I have in your Lordships’ House, which makes her better equipped for this complicated part of the Bill than I am.
I believe that the most important part of Clause 5 will be the consultation on the regulations, which everyone who has come to lobby me about this part of the Bill seems to be a part of. I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, may well become part of this consultation process. Maybe it is time for all of us to become part of this consultation process, because looking as I do now, in the light of the discussion that has taken place in your Lordships’ Committee, at the 26 paragraphs of this consultation document, I would like to have my say about what should be in these regulations.
It might be helpful if some process was set in place so that those from all the various interests that are represented in your Lordships’ Committee who have shown an interest in this Bill could have an active role in a process of discussion in respect of these regulations. Otherwise, I suspect that at some stage in the progress of this Bill—perhaps on Report—we may find ourselves timetabling insufficient time for the debate that will ensue in relation to Clause 5.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am slightly sad that this privilege should not be extended to the Daily Mail, if one can imagine how that would work. I am concerned that the definition of “journal” should be wide enough. There are a lot of what might be called open-access journals now, rather than just the ones that are paid for, and I find them much more useful because I can actually get to read what is in them rather than being asked to pay £20 a time to see if what is in there is of interest to me. As the amendments point out, there are a number of websites that serve very similar functions, where intense discussions take place.
Even with regard to the Bill, how much does the word “journal” cover? Would it include Scientific American, for instance, or similar publications? At what point does something stop being a journal and start being a magazine or a publication that is ineligible under this part of the Bill?
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I support the direction of travel that the amendment proposes, but this is not yet a complete process. Let me explain. I had the benefit of a long engagement with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in the early stages of the evolution of this amendment, and I gave him my views on this issue, which were quite strong. My understanding was that the purpose of the early amendment that was put to me was to create an environment in which there could be a debate or dialogue on an issue of controversy, in the public domain and in a moderated fashion, but which would attract privilege.
I expressed my concerns to him about that as an idea, and I summarise them in this fashion: while I agree that there needs to be the sort of debate among scientists, technical people and academics that the noble Lord, Lord May, robustly describes regularly to us, to the benefit of our deliberations, I am not entirely sure that it is in the interests of everyone who is affected by that for it be taking place in public. To give an example off the top of my head, if someone had concerns, based on good technical analysis and engineering understanding about the braking system of a mass-produced motor vehicle, then if I were a shareholder in that firm I would be very unhappy if that debate took place in the public domain before it was settled. I would be equally unhappy if we as legislators allowed that public debate to have privilege, because one could guarantee that no one would buy that motor vehicle while that debate was taking place and it could ruin a business. I am sure that others can think of many other examples that would be entirely inappropriate. So I have reservations about that.
However, if the amendment is not seeking to generate that sort of debate or a forum for that sort of debate and to allow it to attract privilege, and I do not hear that it is, there is now an interesting evolution of the peer-reviewed statement in scientific and academic journals that Clause 6 was designed to create the opportunity for, and to allow there to be privilege. It could properly reflect the changing, modern environment that we live in, where there is the possibility that the organisations that have been given this role, if they all accept it, could provide an opportunity for healthy debate and discussion—an appropriate point in the public domain that would aid academic consideration, and which would aid technical and scientific discussion. I have a number of problems with that and I do not think that we should conclude our debate on this issue at this stage. I hope that the Minister will approach this in the way in which he approached Clause 5 and say that the Government will take this away and think about it.
My understanding of Clause 6 is that it depends on the fact that what is published in scientific or academic journals—they could be e-journals—is entitled to privilege because it is peer reviewed. It does not reach the public, a wider audience, until a controlled discussion has taken place among those people qualified to do so. People who work at that level in a discipline are used to reviewing each other at peer level. We have significant confidence in them. Those of us who do not have the expertise in particular disciplines rely on them heavily as regards what, for example, the BMJ, will allow to be published.
If another institution, or a set of institutions—for example, the institutions identified by these amendments —is willing to take on the responsibility of that level of peer review before it allows these statements to be published, I am entirely in agreement. If that generates a controversial debate, we should consider whether that debate started by a peer-reviewed assessment should attract a level of privilege. I do not know whether other Members of the Committee will share my view that this is a really interesting idea but that it needs a lot more work. I am not in a position to do that significant amount of work but the one question that I ask the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is: what is the equivalent of this addition of peer review? We on these Benches could not support a view on an issue of controversy, which potentially could be defamatory, being exercised in a privileged environment just because it was a view held among technically gifted people, scientists or academics. I think that it could be just as damaging.
Lord Mawhinney
Listening carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Browne, has said, would it be fair to summarise that he is saying that further work needs to be done on the definition of the word “recognised”?
Lord Browne of Ladyton
With respect to the noble Lord—I am always anxious to agree with him because of the role that he played in relation to the formation of this area of policy—it may be my fault, although I am not sure whether it is my accent or the content of what I am saying. Perhaps I have not explained myself well enough.
The noble Lord’s summary is part of my concern, although I have a broader concern. In the light of the hour and the amount of time that we have already spent on this matter, and the fact that I suspect that we will find time to get back to this in more detail—perhaps offline, as it were, from the Committee—I will not lay out all the detail of my concerns about this. I have a number of them and that is one of them. My fundamental concern is that there is a hurdle to overcome before publication in the clauses as drafted: peer review. I am not entirely sure that, if we expand it into statements that are published on websites belonging to those other institutions, those statements will have the same imprimatur of peer review before they are published. If we could find a way to do that, I would be happy to support the proposal but it is complicated.
Defamation Bill
Lord Browne of Ladyton Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, first, I am glad that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, referred to Lord Ackner. I remember when I was arguing a case called Pepper v Hart and the Attorney-General said, “Don’t pay any attention to what Ministers say at three in the morning, it is often rubbish”. Lord Ackner looked at him and said, “Mr Attorney, is the proposition that Ministers should think before they speak incompatible with good government?”.
The purpose of Clause 3 is to get rid of the uncertain common law and make sure that the problem that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has just raised will not arise again. It is curious that he should mention the example of the food critic, because what convinced me that we needed a Bill, and particularly Clause 3 of the Bill—which was invented by Heather Rogers QC, in my view the most knowledgeable and open-minded of all the QCs practising at the libel Bar—was a case that I did in Northern Ireland about a food critic. A restaurant called Goodfellas, which was probably funded by the IRA, was reviewed in the Irish News by Caroline Workman, the newspaper’s food review critic. The review was very rude about the quality of the food in the restaurant. However, counsel on both sides and the trial judge—and certainly the jury—confused facts and opinion. Caroline Workman was put in the witness box for three days and cross-examined on whether the food was, or was not, of the standard that she had put in the review. When I came in on appeal, I attempted, successfully, to repair the damage by persuading the Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland that if it is a food review, and everyone can see that it is about opinion, you need very few facts in order to justify the opinion. There are, for example, food or theatre reviews that just use stars, so that no stars means that it is terrible and five stars means that it is worth eating or seeing. It is defamatory to put no stars, or only one star, but it would be absurd for the reviewer to have to prove anything more than that they were there at the time; in other words, that it was not malicious. Leaving aside for the moment the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, the beauty of Clause 3, as it stands, is that it really does, for the first time, make the distinction between honest opinion and the defence of truth as good as I think one can get it.
However, I agree with everything that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has said about the Telnikoff case. I am not sure about the precise words of the amendment, but if the Minister were able to make a Pepper v Hart statement to indicate that whereas in subsection (8) we overrule the common law defence of fair comment—that we abolish it and start afresh—and that the intention in doing so is, among other things, to overrule the majority decision of the House of Lords in that case, then it might not be necessary for an amendment to proceed. One of the difficulties I have with the amendment is that although it singles out newspapers, there are of course other publishers as well—but that is a matter of boring technicality. I strongly support the spirit of that amendment and I hope that I have clarified why the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, can sleep easily tonight.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, the Committee will be pleased to hear that—broadly for the reasons articulated so well by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, about the purpose of the clause—I do not intend to speak for very long on Clause 3. Our Benches support the clause, although we recognise that in doing so we are not saying that it cannot be improved. If any of the amendments in this group can improve or assist the purpose of this clause, we will be happy to support them.
I regret to tell the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that while his proposed amendments raise an interesting aspect in the discussion about the difference between facts and opinions, I have to say that I am inclined to agree with the view of the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, which is that the only fact that must be established in the example of a restaurant review is that you can prove that you have eaten in the place. I cannot support his amendments, although I will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about the degree of certainty that one can have now when operating in the area of opinion, so that one can avail oneself of the defence offered by this clause in the future, as opposed to in the area of fact. However, I suspect that one would not want to raise that issue in a room full of lawyers because the position is unlikely to be clearer at the end of the discussion than it was at the beginning. It may be better just to leave it to ordinary people to decide whether or not they are dealing with opinion. It is the sort of thing that one knows when one sees it.
On the amendments spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, I anticipate to a degree that the response will be that they are unnecessary. I hope that the Minister will be convincing in his explanation that they are, but the noble Lord has raised important issues around the adequacy of information that would allow people to take a view as to whether the opinions being expressed are supported by facts. If they are the reporting of other people’s opinions or statements, there has to be some information available to allow people, outwith court proceedings, to come to a view as to whether the opinions are justifiable in the circumstances of the facts that have informed them. The noble Lord has done the Committee a service by identifying this issue. I am not entirely sure that his amendments would improve the clause, but I shall leave it to the Minister to defend the drafting.
I turn to the very specific amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick. We cannot say that we have not had notice that this amendment was likely to be brought forward because the noble and learned Lord raised this issue in a short contribution made on Second Reading, when he asked a series of very specific questions. My recollection is that he got a positive response from the Minister, who indicated that he agreed with his view. I thought that the noble and learned Lord explained the point compellingly in terms of the House of Lords’ decision in Telnikoff v Matusevitch, saying that it is not good law. However, I suspect that the noble and learned Lords who considered that decision did not think that it would be further appealed in the House of Lords some 20 years later. The question, of course, is whether the issue needs to be addressed. I think that the mood of the Committee suggests that this is not good law, but there is a question of whether it needs to be dealt with in the Bill or by the sort of device suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill.
Members on these Benches will listen carefully to the Minister’s response and we will test that against how the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, in turn responds to it. If we need to come back to this issue again, I think that the noble and learned Lord can rely on our continued support. This stain on the law of England should be removed at some stage by other processes.
Lord Scott of Foscote
My Lords, I rise simply to say that for the reasons given by my noble and learned friend Lord Lloyd of Berwick, to which I cannot usefully add, I entirely support his amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, first, I join those who have expressed their gratitude to the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for not only his approach to engagement but his willingness to listen and persuade the Government that perhaps the draft Bill that was presented to us did not meet the challenge—certainly in this respect—that the Government had set themselves. In fact, I am simply grateful for his willingness to change what was before us. That is reflected in these amendments and in another amendment that we will come to in the next group. I have personally been grateful to him, as has my noble friend Lady Hayter, for his engagement and his willingness to listen, and I add to the thanks given to Sir Brian Neill, who I do not know but who clearly has made a significant contribution to improving the Bill. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, for his work, and the Joint Committee. However many of its members are present—a protean number—it has done us a valuable service.
I should also thank my honourable friends Robert Flello, Helen Goodman and others in the House of Commons who engaged with this in some detail, of necessity because of the then apparent reluctance of the Government to shift on the issue. They debated many matters that we now do not have to debate with some intensity over many hours. It is to be regretted that throughout those debates the Minister at the time appeared unwilling to shift. Behind them there is a broad coalition of people who have campaigned on these issues for a significant period, and who have been represented properly here, who are too numerous in their different forms to mention.
It is probably inevitable that we will disappoint some of their best expectations of the law. There are people out there who still believe that there should be an additional public interest defence that is based on an obligation on the claimant to show malice on the part of those who publish. However, it would appear that that has not found support in your Lordships’ House and come before the Committee. The issue has not gone away and it may come back. At some stage, we will have collectively to come to the point whereby we have made the best of this legislation. We should not make the very best become the enemy of the good.
Secondly, I will make an observation that will not be lost on everyone in this Room, although it may be lost on some noble Lords. I say this with great respect to many of my friends in this Room, but it is interesting to see the chilling effect on other people that my profession can have when debating these complex and difficult issues. I am doing my best in my contributions to try not to add to the chilling effect that lawyers can have on others when they start to engage in the technicalities and obscure corners of these discussions. I constantly keep in front of me in the Bill the objective of trying to find a clear and accessible statement of the law of defamation for England—and partly for Scotland, which I shall deal with in a moment, because there are provisions in the Bill that apply to Scotland and need to be accepted through a process in the Scottish Parliament known as a Sewel Motion.
Despite the fact that the ultimate test of everything that we do here is, “How will this be applied in courts, what can we rely upon judges to do, how can people make arguments, what implications does this word have, what can we assume that that will do?”, at the end of the day people will make decisions in relation to the law of defamation well before there is any engagement with a court. There is overwhelming evidence, particularly in the world of learned—I do not use that word in the legal sense—and informed opinion, that fear of our defamation law is having a substantial and chilling effect on people, not because they do not think that at the end of the day they will be able to persuade a judge that this was a reasonable position to hold or that these facts alone are able to be proved in every jot as defensible, but because, by and large, their observation of the way in which our law works suggests to them that this is too dangerous a business to get involved in, and they would prefer to get on with their science or some other area of their life rather than devote the next two or three years to protecting the position that they justifiably hold and which they would like to get out there for discussion in the public domain.
In any event, I do not have experience of these great cases because I have not contributed to any of the ones that have got the law into this state. I try to avoid approaching that on this basis, and I will make my contribution to the debate on this group of amendments on that basis because I have an amendment that, yet again, appears to come into conflict with the way in which we pass law, with what is necessary and all the rest of it. I want that amendment to be tested against a different standard in these circumstances, for some of the reasons that I have articulated. For those reasons, I am extremely grateful that we have had the benefit of views that may not have been appropriately in point on the amendment before us but which, for people who are not lawyers, set the scene for the reality of the world in which we live. I am delighted that my noble friend Lady Hayter agreed to take responsibility for Clause 5 and everything associated with new media. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that I will leave it to my noble friend to have a view on whether Twitter and retweeting, which I think is the appropriate active verb, is publication and whether it attracts the responsibilities that are necessitated by this part of the legislation.
I have no doubt that many questions will not be able to be answered, particularly in an environment that is changing as we speak. A later amendment seeks to get some clarity on the word “website”, simply on the basis that no one knows what will be a website, or the equivalent of it, in five years’ time. Yet the word is put here although it may not be litigated on, from the point of view of a definition, for another three or four years. However, this communication world, with which most of us have a passing relationship but are not intimately involved, is changing significantly. We should bear that in mind.
I think that by common consent Clause 4 is at the heart of the Bill and, quite rightly, has attracted the most attention. As the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, made clear, it is only part of a suite of defences. It is the most contentious and the most difficult. Effectively, it provides protection for defendants in circumstances where the publication of defamatory material, which is not necessarily true but is in the public interest, can be defended against an allegation of defamation if the publisher, in the previous wording, “acted responsibly”. However, those words are now to be amended to put a slightly different test, which probably would be an easier test for people to understand. However, we are still talking about the same combination of dual factors.
The question is whether this clause, imperfect as it almost certainly is, better meets the requirement. I think that, unanimously, we are of the view that it does. The principal reason is that it reflects better the decision in the case of Flood. It happened after the first drafting took place and, although it is a rather substantial judgment in terms of reading for someone who is not used to reading judgments, essentially it says that one should apply these two tests and that almost any circumstance that is relevant to the issue can be used to prove that the publication was in the public interest.
As one would expect, lawyers take a long time to say that, but I do the judgment no disservice if I say that that is what it says. When I first read the case I was extremely attracted by that approach. I was reinforced in my view by consistent exposure to groups of people who had had a bad experience with the existing law. This was not because they said to me that when they got to the proof or argument of a case they found judges unwilling to listen to their arguments as a whole; rather they said that they were scared to publish because when they go for advice people produce this list and if they cannot tick all the boxes in the list then the advisers say: “You may publish, but our advice would be not to because you will not be able to meet the necessary defence in these circumstances”. That is not a set of circumstances that we should allow to persist and there is no contributor to this debate who thinks that we should.
Either we try to list those factors that are relevant, leaving room for other people to add to them because of the changing world we live in, or we get rid of them altogether. The Minister argues, probably rightly in law, that if we get rid of them altogether it implies that all relevant circumstances have to be considered. The problem is that, whether or not we generate further energy for the cottage industry of lawyers arguing what is relevant to prove public interest, we may find that the courts are persuaded back towards illustrative lists in judgments which then become frozen again as being what the comparatively small number of English judges who do this work will be persuaded by. That is the reason for Amendment 23.
Of course it is unnecessary in one sense. I noted that the Minister three times used the phrase “in all the circumstances of the case”, yet those words are absent from the clause itself. On these Benches we argue that they should be included, not because we think judges or lawyers will not appreciate that that is what they are entitled to look to in order to prove that something is—or somebody reasonably believed it to be—in the public interest, but because, against the history of how we got to this stage, it is worth Parliament saying that, in changing the law, we are moving away from a checklist approach. So far, we are saying that there is no limit to the circumstances or the factors that you can bring to make your argument that something was—or you reasonably believed it was—in the public interest. We want to make that clear to everyone.
We would put this in the Bill not because anybody has cleverly suggested to us that, without it, judges would not allow us to do that. However, when you are making decisions about publishing anything, in any circumstances, you ought to know that, whatever the factors are, if you hold opinions reasonably and if they go towards the public interest, any attack that is made on you to the effect that you were not justified in publishing them will be irrelevant. I suspect, because I have stood in the position of the Minister at another Dispatch Box, that the Government will resist that. I suspect that lawyers, too, will resist it. However, my suspicion is that all the non-lawyers in the Room, and the people out there who have lived in the environment where they have been forced to engage with lists of things, would welcome it. They would think that Parliament had got it and was giving them a degree of freedom that they had not had before. I urge the Committee, and ask the Government, to consider that this, although not a necessary thing to do, would be an important thing to do.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
Would it not be in favour of the amendment to look back at what Clause 4(2) looks like? In subsection (2), it says that the court may,
“have regard … (amongst other matters)”.
That goes, because of the way in which the amendments operate. Is the noble Lord saying more than, “The concept that the Government accept in the unamended subsection should somehow be reflected in the amended one”? It seems that what is being said represents the Government’s own view, as expressed in the unamended Bill, that the court may,
“have regard … (amongst other matters)”.
What is being said now is that that must be reflected in new wording. It therefore seems that the noble Lord may be too pessimistic in assuming that what he is proposing would not be accepted by the Government; I have no idea.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. Unlike a previous intervention that he made—which I thought had the distinct shape of a lifeboat being offered to someone who refused it—I am not going to reject his offer to keep my head above water. The oxygen of an intervention can quite often be helpful.
I am of course willing to discuss the mechanism for this further. I am conscious enough of the necessity sometimes not to insist on the form of words that I alight upon, allowing room for some manoeuvre. I would just make the argument on behalf of our Benches that it would be helpful to the general direction of the Bill, and on the effect that it will have on people’s behaviour, if we send a strong message in this clause that we are moving so far away from this checklist that we are prepared to countenance any relevant circumstances as being important to whether something is in the public interest or whether they reasonably believed it to be so. I am pleased that the Minister has used this form of words himself on more than one occasion, particularly when he was explaining the expectation of what the courts would do in applying this particular test.
I turn to the only other amendment apart from the Government’s three amendments, which I support. It has survived the contributions of those in whose names the amendments appeared under in the Marshalled List. It seeks to replace editorial judgment with the publisher’s judgment. I entirely understand, from the point of view of those at the sharp end, why they do not want to be hemmed in by something that is too closely associated with only one form of media. They are looking for a generic term that covers all the forms of publishing that now exist. Everyone involved in those forms now has responsibility for putting information into the public domain. I respect entirely the argument of the noble Lord, Lord May, on this.
I noted that in the Minister’s introductory remarks—I hope that he will find a few moments to reinforce this—he referred to the phrase “editorial discretion” as intending to give latitude to the judgment of how a story should be presented. From that I took the view that “editorial” is an adjective relating to an action rather than a job description. I think that it already covers all the different kinds of people who are, in legal terms, “publishers”. If that can be made crystal clear in an easily accessible way, the concerns that were properly expressed by those who think that perhaps this is too newspaper-oriented in its terminology can be dealt with.
I am grateful for the contributions of all noble Lords, and I hope that they will forgive me if I do not mention them individually. They have substantially enriched our debate, even if only two supported the amendment in my name and that of my noble friend. I am grateful in particular for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, because he comes at this with a view that is born out of his intense relationship with the issue over a concentrated period as chair of the Joint Committee. He speaks with authority, so when I get support from that quarter, I value it. The same gratitude applies to my noble friend Lady Bakewell for her support. She speaks for many people who have to make these decisions without constantly having lawyers by their side, and sometimes in comparatively difficult circumstances. I am grateful to her for saying that my amendment would be of assistance to them.
I have little to add and I will not go into the detail, but on the point made by my noble friend about the definition of “public interest”, I would draw the attention of the Committee to the Guidelines for Prosecutors on Assessing the Public Interest in Cases Affecting the Media, which is published by the Director of Public Prosecutions. Paragraph 31 on page 9 gives a set of examples of conduct that is capable of serving the public interest. It is designed to instruct prosecutors on how they should approach decisions that affect the media, particularly on the question of whether a prosecution is required in the public interest. These considerations are helpful because they clearly show the distinction between what the public are interested in and what is in the public interest. At some stage when we come to consider guidelines or government expressions of what they think they have achieved with this legislation, drawing on that sort of information will be helpful when addressing the issue identified by my noble friend Lord Triesman. It is a serious and important point in the challenge of finding a balance.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
Not only do I agree but I wonder whether the following might meet that need. The Explanatory Notes on the Equality Act are the best example that I have ever seen. They are particularly good because they give illustrative examples of the application of particular clauses. As I understand it, it is now good practice when a Bill has completed its stages for the Explanatory Notes to be revised in the light of the debates, so that the courts and public have an authoritative guide. The Explanatory Notes to this Bill are accurate but not in any way verbose; they are sufficient to provide that kind of guidance. It might be worth thinking about ways of including such examples in the Explanatory Notes. I know that they are not the kind of things that normally one reads on the train, but it might be one way of encouraging public understanding. I am sorry to have interrupted the noble Lord, but it occurred to me that that might be a way forward.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am very pleased to have given the noble Lord an opportunity to make a very good and common-sense suggestion that I am sure the Government will take on board. They have taken on board quite a lot of what he has suggested in relation to this particular area of the law. In general, I agree that Explanatory Notes should not be set in stone at the point of publication of a Bill and not revisited, because Bills are often changed substantially during their passage through Parliament. It would be helpful to have revised Explanatory Notes. I agree with the noble Lord that sometimes the Explanatory Notes do not take one very much further forward than the Bill itself. This Bill has been significantly changed and the notes could do with some revision.
I will just point out that as a Scottish lawyer there is no conceit on my part about the state of Scots law. Clauses 6, 7, 15, 16 and 17 of the Bill extend to Scotland. When we reach a discussion of something that is directly relevant to Scotland, I will express my regret that there does not seem to be any parallel movement on the part of the Scottish Government to find time in their Parliament to bring the law up to the improved state that it will be in down here when the Bill becomes law.
Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood
My Lords, I come very late to this legislation, having devoted myself over recent years merely to deciding defamatory cases. I am enormously glad that the House is proposing to simplify and clarify the law and, in that respect, to raise the bar. However, noble Lords should recognise—as assuredly the courts will recognise, if and when they come to apply the clause—that it is implicit that the defence will apply even when it is assumed that the defamatory statement is wholly untrue, even when there is no possibility of it attracting the Clause 3 defence of honest opinion, and even when assuming that it is not privileged. Amendment 14 to Clause 4(1)(b) inserts a defence that,
“the defendant reasonably believed that publishing the statement complained of was in the public interest”,
notwithstanding that it was untrue, not the subject of honest opinion, and unprivileged.
I support Amendment 14, although not Amendment 23, because I value freedom of expression and freedom of speech so highly as to justify, on occasion, the destruction of an individual’s reputation without his having any opportunity whatever to vindicate himself. Noble Lords should recognise that that is the price exacted for the provision of a defence in the interest of freedom of speech.
There can be no question that in applying such a clause the court is bound to have regard to all the circumstances. Time and again it has been made perfectly plain that the Reynolds list is non-exhaustive. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Nicholls, said so, and in the recent Flood case in the Supreme Court, in which I was involved, not only did we say that in terms, but we brought into account various factors and considerations that did not feature in the Reynolds list.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, I am sorry that the Minister has put me in the position of Scrooge by suggesting that his officials should waste their time over Christmas amending the Explanatory Notes. They can do that over Easter when, it is hoped, the Bill will have received Royal Assent.
I am going to suggest something which I hope will go down well with my noble friend Lord McNally and with the Committee. I suggest that we should simplify what at the moment is completely unnecessary and should be deleted from the Bill. It concerns reportage and what should happen when a publisher publishes a report fairly and accurately. My original Bill, which I do not have with me, dealt with reportage, and subsections (3) and (4) explain how the Government see the position. We now have government Amendment 19 in this group, which is a new version of reportage. However, I have to say that it is completely unnecessary because now that Clause 4 is in a very satisfactory form, I do not think that we need to include anything at all about reportage.
Let us look forward to Amendment 19, which has not yet been moved. It is not something that the man or woman on the Glasgow omnibus would understand. It states:
“If the statement complained of was, or formed part of, an accurate and impartial account of a dispute to which the claimant was a party,”—
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, does not like the words “to which the claimant was a party”, and I do not much like them myself—
“the court must in determining whether it was reasonable for the defendant to believe that publishing the statement was in the public interest disregard any omission”—
that is something of a double negative—
“of the defendant to take steps to verify the truth of the imputation conveyed by it”.
With great affection and respect for parliamentary counsel, I have to say that I find it very hard to understand what is being said here. While I think I understand it, I do not see why it is needed at all. A proper public interest defence, as we now have in Clause 4, covers all publications, including reportage. We could go into the tricky thing about whether it should or should not cover someone who is not a party to a dispute, but I suggest that we should consider that hereafter—I say that not just because I have had no lunch. I do not see the necessity of including anything special on reportage, given the clarity with which the Clause 4 defence is now worded. I seek, therefore, to leave out subsections (3) and (4) and I would oppose putting anything like Amendment 19 in their place. I would certainly regard it as unnecessary to consider an amendment to widen this further. Rather idiotically, I think I have just said the opposite of what I wanted to say. I suggest that we leave out subsections (3) and (4) because they are not necessary and that we do not put anything in their place. I beg to move.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I shall speak to Amendment 20, tabled in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Hayter, simply because I have no idea where these particular words came from. They qualify the dispute that has been reported as being one to which the claimant had to be a party. Shortly I will explain why that is, but having listened to the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill—I wish that I had added my name as well to his amendment—on reflection I really do not understand why these two subsections were included in Clause 4 in the first place. I have no particular objection to the attempt in the government amendment to concentrate them into one subsection, although the language is cumbersome. However, I would never underestimate the ability of the ordinary man on the Glasgow bus to understand verbiage.
I do not understand why these subsections were included in the Bill in the first place and I cannot find any debate about it other than that the initial attempt was a codification of the existing law. As I understand it, this element or refinement of the defence about reportage came from a case called Al-Faghi v a Saudi newspaper, or something. Essentially, this offers the opportunity of a qualified privilege defence to the reporting of a dispute, when it is the reporting of the dispute that is the issue of public interest rather than the truth of the allegations that may have been made between the parties to the dispute.
I will not detain the Committee by going through the distillation of the principles on which I have worked from the Al-Faghi case to see where the idea came from that the dispute had to be one to which the claimant was a party before it attracted this qualified privilege. I am pretty certain that the Minister will not be able to find in Al-Faghi a principle that requires that the dispute that is being reported be a dispute to which the claimant was a party. I can think of circumstances where the claimant could be defamed by statements made in a dispute to which he or she, the claimant, was not a party but where the reporting of that dispute could be in the public interest. So it seems unnecessary to qualify this defence, or subset of the defence, if it is to continue to exist, by requiring it to arise out of a dispute to which the claimant was a party. That is my argument. I see from his body language that the noble Lord, Lord Lester, is about to make another helpful intervention.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
It might be helpful to the Minister as well, because I did a pretty sloppy job just now in my desire to be quick. Under existing case law, it is true that the claimant has generally been involved in the dispute reported, either through being personally and directly involved as a party or through membership of a faction or group that is a party. But the principles are applicable when, especially in a political context, both sides of a dispute are being reported. According to Lord Justice Sedley, in a case called Charman v Orion, from 2008, 1 All ER 750, there is no need for reciprocal allegations. There can be a reportage defence for what he called a unilateral libel. He said that the reportage defence,
“developed in Al-Faghi”—
to which the noble Lord, Lord Browne, referred—
“cannot logically be confined to the reporting of reciprocal allegations. A unilateral libel, reported disinterestedly, will be equally protected”.
That is, I think, in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Browne. There is no express statement in case law that the claimant must be a party to a dispute, and it would be unfortunate if the new statutory effects were more restrictive than the common-law position. That is why all of this is present. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, said, it is not to undermine something in the common law. The problem is that the common law is pretty uncertain. It seems to me that we can do away with all this by not having subsections there at all. I hope that that helps. The new subsection has the potential to cause confusion in the light of the rest of the clause by stating that,
“the court must disregard any omission of the defendant to take steps to verify the truth of the imputation”.
The reference to taking steps to verify is there because the checklist in the current version of Clause 4(2)(g), provides, as one of the factors,
“whether the defendant took any other steps to verify the truth”.
If subsection (2)(g) goes, there is no need to provide for the court to disregard that, and any reference to taking steps to verify in subsection (3) would be confusing. I am sorry to go through all this but I think that in the interests of simplifying the law we can get rid of it altogether.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am very grateful to the noble Lord and am pleased to have given him the opportunity to make the speech that he wished he had made in supporting his amendment. Now that I have the noble Lord’s support, I can summarise my argument in relation to my amendment by saying that I am reinforced in the view that it would appear the common law is still developing. The Government’s wording in the draft Bill, and even the wording proposed in the noble Lord’s amendment—I sympathise with his attempt to try to make two subsections one subsection—broadly restricts the defence specifically in relation to the reporting of a dispute to which the claimant has to be a party. I did not understand that to be the common law of England and I now have support for that view. If there was a justification and a necessity for this provision, I suspect that it arose from the way in which the clause was framed previously. For the reasons expounded by the noble Lord, Lord Lester, it is no longer necessary.
I hope that the Government will go away and think about that but if they insist on retaining this subsection in the Bill, I propose that we should delete the qualification of the dispute because it does not refer to the common law and is a restriction. I do not think that the Government intend to restrict this defence.
The Earl of Erroll
I intervene with great temerity given this incredibly legal provision. However, as an outsider, I cannot understand why the courts should not be allowed to determine whether or not someone has behaved responsibly. If a large organisation is involved, it should have to verify the information or take some reasonable steps before repeating an appalling slander, libel or whatever it may be. I cannot see why we should restrict the courts’ ability to look at all the circumstances by retaining the relevant measure. Therefore, I support Amendment 18 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lester.
Defamation Bill
Lord Browne of Ladyton Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 1, which is in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Hayter. If it is convenient to the Committee, I shall speak also to Amendment 2, which is also in our names, and Amendment 3, which is in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney. First, it may be appropriate to set out the Opposition’s position in relation to this Bill. At Second Reading, I made it clear that we welcome this Bill but that we are a critical friend of the draft before your Lordships. It is appropriate to recognise the work, in particular, of the Joint Committee on the draft Bill, and everyone in working groups and campaign groups who have got us to this point.
We on these Benches support the modernisation of our defamation laws. As was said at Second Reading, there have been concerns that defamation laws are outdated, have fallen behind technological developments of restricted freedom of expression and have attracted libel tourism. The current system is also skewed by the high cost of defamation proceedings. All these issues will exercise our minds as we examine the provisions of the draft Bill.
The objective of the exercise is to amend and revise the law to leave us with laws that are clearer and more proportionate. It is important that in any review and reform of defamation laws we get the right balance between freedom of speech and expression on the one hand and protecting reputations on the other. I am sure that noble Lords will express that objective in many different ways as we proceed. Essentially, that is what we are seeking.
I pay tribute to the Minister for the way in which he has engaged with my noble friends and me, and, I am sure, with other noble Lords. At Second Reading, he indicated that the Government were listening and that they would engage in debate and discussion about a number of aspects of this Bill. I suppose that it is slightly premature to say that the Bill has already been improved but I think that one can anticipate that some of the proposed government amendments will be accepted by your Lordships’ House. In that sense, I think that I am on safe ground to suggest that the Bill will be improved. It has been improved already through its passage in the House of Commons. Since Second Reading, because of engagement with the Government, we have high hopes that there will be a continuation of improvement.
There still are other issues that we wish to address and with which we wish to engage in debate. We hope that the attitude shown so far by the Ministers and their supporting officials will continue, that the Government will continue to listen to the argument, and that we will be able to further improve the Bill.
Amendment 1 seeks to expand Clause 1 by adding the words,
“and the extent of its publication”,
to the test of seriousness. This amendment will be recognised by some as being very similar to an amendment proposed in Committee in the House of Commons. However, the drafting of that amendment properly was interpreted by the Minister, Mr Djanogly, as being restrictive rather than expansive of seriousness. Thus, the Minister avoided engaging with the issue which it was intended to bring forward.
The purpose of the first two amendments is to elicit from the Minister a clarification of the meaning of “serious harm” for these reasons. I commend paragraph 27 of the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights when scrutinising the draft Bill. It sets out clearly the existing threshold by referring to the threshold of seriousness that requires to be reached to establish that a statement is defamatory and that the courts have the power to throw out a claim where this is not met or where no “real and substantial” tort can be demonstrated. There is wide agreement that that threshold is too low and that the balance in the existing law is not being struck properly. Under the Bill, a statement is not defamatory unless its publication has caused, or is likely to cause, serious harm to the reputation of the claimant. We have been told through comments made by Ministers in the course of the debate thus far that the intention is to raise the bar from what is currently the law.
Overall, Labour supports the objective of raising the bar and reducing the number of trivial cases, but believes that the clause is not sufficiently clear. We have tabled the amendments now before us and those tabled in the Commons in order to clarify the meaning of “serious harm”. They sit neatly with the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, which would require the Secretary of State to issue guidance on which claims should be struck out by the court for not meeting the test of serious harm. I should record that when this issue was debated in Committee in the House of Commons, the Minister addressed it in an attractive and simple way by saying that the test would be set by Parliament and we should not seek to restrict how judges interpret it. I have some instinctive sympathy with that view. We make the law and the judges interpret it; it is not for Parliament or the Government to lay down exactly what the test means. However, we are trying to achieve a better balance between freedom of speech and expression on the one hand and protecting someone’s reputation on the other, and we are seeking to do that principally through this test. There is an onus on Parliament to understand what it is doing and to be convinced that the devices it uses meet the objective. Therefore, without an explanation of what the effect of this test will be, what the Government intend by it and how in practice they think it will meet the objective, it will be well nigh impossible for Parliament to be convinced that the objective of striking the proper balance has been met. These amendments seek to provide the Government with an opportunity to explain how the objective is met by the test.
The amendments have also been tabled against the background of the history of this process. The draft Bill had a different test. The Joint Committee recommended yet another test. The tests are similar to each other, and the Government chose a third one. There is an argument that the process has confused rather than clarified the position. I refer to the first sitting of the Committee on 19 June 2012, where Karl Turner, the MP for Kingston-upon-Hull, rose to support an amendment similar to those before your Lordships today. He started off by setting out his agreement with the underlying principle behind the existing clause. He said he was,
“searching for clarity in the face of some possible confusion”,
and he set out broadly the argument that I have sought to set out. He said:
“Clause 1 aims to introduce a hurdle for pursuing claims through imposing a serious harm test, meaning that a published statement can be defamatory only if it has caused or is likely to cause serious harm”.
He said that he thought that that was sensible, and set it against the current situation. He went on to accept—and I accept—that the,
“decision to apply such a hurdle will allow judges to strike out trivial claims … early on, and reduce the expense and time taken by needless and vexatious litigants”.
He then explained why he supported the amendment and encouraged the Minister to engage with it. He said that,
“a clearer statement of what is meant by ‘serious harm’, specifically how it differs from harm”,
would be helpful. He added:
“There must be a clear indication of the intended meaning of serious harm, otherwise the clause is likely to fail in its principal aim, which is, as I have said already, to prevent vexatious claims. The explanatory notes outline that the clause raises the bar for bringing a claim, but the lack of understanding regarding the true meaning of ‘serious harm’ means that we do not know how high the bar is being raised. This is a concern not only for the lawyers and judges”—
we have enough lawyers in this Room to engage in this debate and keep us going for a long time—
“who will be required to interpret the law once it is passed, but also for the House, which has to scrutinise the legislation now”.
He continues by making the point that makes my point in the clearest way. He said:
“Unless we are clear about how high the bar has been set, we shall be unable to understand fully whether the Bill strikes the correct balance between freedom of expression and the protection of reputation, which I think we all agree is what the measure seeks to achieve. It would thus be helpful if the Minister could place on record some examples of what he considers ‘serious harm’”.—[Official Report, Commons, Defamation Bill Committee, 19/6/12; cols. 9-10.]
I could continue because my honourable friend supported his argument well thereafter.
The disappointment thereafter was, with respect to the Minister, Jonathan Djangoly, that he did not engage with this issue at all and suggested that just the history of the process—the consultation and the decision made by the Government to rest upon “serious harm”—was quite sufficient and that it was thereafter a question for the judiciary. I do not agree with that. We should continue to give the Government the opportunity to explain and answer these questions. I have repeated a slightly revised version of the original amendment for that purpose, and we have drawn on the work of the Joint Committee by proposing to add the words, “and substantial” to this clause, which was the committee’s recommendation, and give the Government the opportunity to give the explanation that they have thus far avoided giving.
Finally, before I sit down, I say that this test is crucial to what the Government are seeking to do and what we, and most of those who will contribute to this debate, are seeking to support. We will continue to return to this test because it is at the heart of the argument. If we can get clarity about this at the beginning, many of the other proposed amendments to the legislation can be seen off by reference to the effectiveness of a proper test. If there is no clarity, amendment after amendment will be tabled—and many have already been put down—seeking to draw further explanation in order that noble Lords can be satisfied that the objective will be met.
I support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, who served with great distinction in his chairmanship of the Joint Committee and has done us great service on this Bill, in order to give the Government and the Minister the opportunity to set us off on our discussions with some certainty and clarity, and provide an explanation that will serve us well during the rest of our debates.
Lord McNally
First, I have already pointed out that my noble friend’s concerns about costs are being addressed in parallel with the Bill. Secondly, as we go through the Bill, we need to look at it as a cohesive whole. There are other factors and proposals that deal with some of the problems he is concerned about. It may help the Committee, and the way that I want the Committee to work—we are in the Moses Room and so we will not divide at the end of these debates—if I say that I will listen very carefully to the contributions made by Members, look at the legal advice, whether unanimous or conflicting, and take the advice of my advisers. I see that as the best and most fruitful way of using this Committee. At this stage, I am trying to give the Committee an idea of the Government’s thinking thus far and what the background is to any particular proposal. That is not the final word on these matters, although it should not be taken as an encouragement that there is a concession in the offing. As an old hand, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, approves of the balance and that it will encourage my noble friend Lord Mawhinney, although not too much. We will see how these debates unfold.
The courts already have the power under Rule 3.4 of the Civil Procedure Rules which permits them to strike out all or part of a claim where there is no reasonable ground for bringing it or they consider it to be an abuse of process. The courts are very familiar with that power, and we have no doubt that they will use it more when this is in place.
Other lawyers have said to me that this will all be tested in the courts. Indeed it will but, to answer a point made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, we are trying to lift the hurdle but are consciously trying to keep the balance right in what we are doing. I hope that noble Lords will be prepared to withdraw the amendment in accordance with the procedure for Committees in this Room. To take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, once people have had a chance to look at Hansard and at our thinking on any particular area, if they want further clarification, I would be very happy to talk to them. I hope that the noble Lord will be prepared to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, with all respect—a phrase that lawyers use when they have no respect—to all noble Lords and noble and learned Lords and to the Minister who boasts that he is not a lawyer rather than disclaims that he is, the most important contribution to our short debate, for which I am very grateful, was by the noble Lord, Lord May of Oxford. He reminded us that we are changing the law and that will significantly affect the way in which lawyers, be they judges, barristers or solicitors, work in advising. We have set ourselves the task of trying to make the law in this area clear to affect the way in which people behave. Most of those people are not lawyers, and nor should they have to be lawyers in order to understand the limits of behaviour that will put them at risk.
With respect to the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, who knows that I have an enormous degree of admiration for him, his response to the intervention by the noble Lord, Lord May of Oxford, was—I hate using this phrase—technically correct, but it missed the point. The point I am trying to make in this part of the debate is that we have an opportunity to give an explanation of what we think we are achieving here. We have a perfect example in this short debate because of the very concise and helpful interventions by a number of lawyers about just how that could be confused. I am extremely grateful for that. In a simple sentence, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott, supported my amendments and then made well made point that was not in any way undermined by the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, because neither he nor I—and I support his amendment for the purpose that I explained—think that judges are incapable of doing this. We know that judges are capable of looking at this test and applying it to the facts, having listened to the legal argument. We know because—although I have never practised in England, I have had to bone up on the procedure—there is a process whereby the issues in dispute become apparent by the process of pleading and the exchange of arguments and facts. I do not think that any of us have any doubt that judges will be able to do that.
Actually, if that is the point at which decisions are made in relation to the tests that we set, we will have failed because we want these decisions to be made much earlier in the activity. We do not want people to have to go to the court at all, if that can be avoided. We do not want people to have to run off to very expensive lawyers who are capable of doing what we lawyers have just done in this debate, which is taking the advice of a former Lord Chancellor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, who we all admire, which is that there is a distinction between “substantial” and “serious”. However, we had a very clear, lucid and believable explanation of why “serious” includes “substantial” from the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, using his experience and practice in the law. He was supported by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, who said that this simpler, one-word test is the most appropriate way to move forward because the justice system can cope with it much better.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
If the noble Lord will excuse me, I will give way to his noble friend the solicitor first; then I will get to the barrister.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I must confess to being confused by the noble Lord’s argument. He started with a passionate point about making the law more accessible and understandable to the ordinary bloke, which is what the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, was concerned about. But how can it serve that purpose to have two words instead of one in circumstances where we already have had very experienced lawyers disagreeing as to the meanings of those two words? I note that the noble Lord has not advanced any view on the difference between “substantial” and “significant”. It seems to me that his recipe would confuse the layman.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention but I am perfectly happy to adopt the distinction that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, offered the Joint Committee and that the chair of the Joint Committee has reported to us. I will live with that. I am happy to accept that. But that is not my point. Although I am speaking to amendments in my name and that of my noble friend, I am using them as a device to try to get some clarity of the Government’s thinking so that our Parliament can say, “We support that thinking. Therefore, people outside can have some understanding of what at least we think we are doing with the law”.
If anyone goes away and reads this, here we have an interesting debate in which a number of differing opinions have been expressed, all supported by eminent lawyers. If that leads to clarity, I am happy to go along with it. It may not be possible to provide the clarity that people crave. But my argument is that in our debates we should at least give some clear indication to people outside—they should not need a law degree for this—about where we are setting this bar and what it means. There are a number of ways in which one can do that, including reference to examples.
I turn now to the Minister’s response. I am grateful to him for the way in which he engages in the debate on these issues. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Lester, will allow me to make this point, then I shall take his intervention. I am grateful to the Minister for the way in which he engages in the debate and I know that he will listen carefully to any further points that I or anyone else want to make. I will go away and look carefully at what he has said.
While the Minister was speaking, I was looking carefully at what Jonathan Djanogly said in the equivalent debate in the House of Commons. He will be pleased to know that there was a lot of similarity. But there was some difference and it is that difference for which I am grateful.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
The noble Lord said that I was technically correct. That is fine. If I am technically correct, that is good enough for me. I hope he will accept what I am about to say in a light-hearted spirit. We have now spent slightly more than an hour and the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Browne, has dealt with the matter is exactly the way we should not deal with the matter when interpreting Clause 1. If the kind of point that he makes were to be made before judges, we would undo the very purpose of Clause 1. The purpose of Clause 1 and the word “serious”— I do not agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, that we need the word “substantial”—is to make this a short, simple, preliminary procedure in which the judge, without having to go into evidence, is able to rule on the basis of what he has before him as to whether the case should proceed. That is the intention.
The more that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, refers to differences of interpretation by this person and that person, the more I despair. If those kind of points are made by advocates in interpreting Clause 1—whether with “serious” or “serious and substantial”, and in my view “serious” includes “substantial” and it clearly also includes the extent of publication—the more complicated it is made and the more it will defeat the purpose. We do not want to bar claimants with important claims, nor do we want trivial claims to be brought forward. That is what Clause 1 does; it strikes a balance. I beg him not to add to the complexity. As a great advocate he is very good at raising all these points, but it will defeat the whole object of Clause 1.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I accept what the noble Lord has said and I respect it enormously. I do not treat it light-heartedly. I think he makes a serious point. I feel I may have lost my powers of advocacy actually because I was not seeking to argue to change the words. I was seeking simpler clarification of the words and was using the only device that is open to me in these circumstances. I may not have served that purpose and may have opened up the opportunity for debate, but I do not think that I have done anything other than give some people who are not lawyers a window into the world that we will be living in when lawyers get hold of what we produce.
Lord May of Oxford
I do bear in mind that we want to move on. I may well have missed some of the points, but I think part of the missing of points is cultural sliding past each other. I completely agree with what the noble Lord has just said. One ideally wants a simple procedure where a good judge hears what it is all about from well-chosen people. However, I reel back in dismay when I hear other people who said that he examines the material that has been assembled. The noble Lord clearly does not mean that and if it is going to be like that then I am with him.
My one experience of this kind comes out of the Meadow case. Noble Lords may remember this incompetent statistician who created a quite serious set of problems. In the wake of it, some of the medical statisticians at the Royal Society said, “Why don’t we make a report on it?”. I said, “No, why don’t I talk to Hayden Phillips and we will get together with some legal people to ask how we can be more helpful?”. Indeed, we got together with Igor Judge, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, this was before he was Lord Chief Justice, and had a very interesting conversation but it was slightly strange.
I do not apologise for boring noble Lords with this because I think it is illustrative. When I was in school, we had a rather good debating team which consistently beat the debating team led by Murray Gleeson. The captain of our team is now a High Court judge in New South Wales. They have a new way of handling expert witnesses, which is along the lines that the noble Lord just advocated. Instead of getting a credentialed expert witness such as Meadow or somebody else from a company that gives credentialed expert witnesses who are often not very expert, the judge asks appropriate people who would be a good person to bring in. Then he holds a mini tutorial in which the two sides are able to ask questions, but one seeks understanding. The whole Meadow thing would never have happened had that been done.
However, after we had presented this idea and a willingness to help do it, it was explained to us that we simply did not understand. We were missing the point of the legal system. What would be really appreciated would be if the Royal Society would set up a committee to formally accredit expert witnesses, which did not seem to us what the debate was about. I am worried that what is being described and what is in your Lordships’ minds are not easily going to be translated into anything that is not almost as expensive as what is currently being used as a weapon. In the situation involving Nature and Simon Singh, the people who were being criticised did stand to lose by the criticism, but the expert opinion was that the criticism was valid. It could have been settled by a judge in half an hour, but the defence cost Nature £1.5 million.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am again grateful to the noble Lord, Lord May, whom I think I misnamed earlier. However, I have no intention of going any further with this, having made the point I want to make at this stage. I am grateful to the Minister for his response. He has added to my understanding of what the Government are seeking to achieve, and I broadly support that. If it achieves the objective, I will go away and think long and hard about what is now on the public record. If that is sufficient, I will abandon my search for any further clarity in this area. If it is not, I may of course return to this issue at some later stage in the Bill, but for the moment I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Faulks
My Lords, not out of loyalty to my late uncle, I think there was a considerable amount in the majority view of his committee. The amendment here restricts a remedy to circumstances in which the defamatory statement,
“is so gross as to cause serious harm to individuals or a breach of the peace”,
which is a very significant hurdle indeed.
There is something, I suggest, that is rather crude about the fact that a defamatory statement or statements can be published and the potential claimant can read about them, can begin action in respect of them, but the moment he or she dies that is the end of the matter although the harm remains unremedied and the anxiety and loss may well have ramifications for his or her family. That is a crude cut-off point.
I know that the Minister he has already given anxious thought to this matter, but I ask him to consider, if there may not be a claim for damages, that there might at least be a remedy by way of an injunction or apology, so that those in the position of the Watsons, referred to by my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral, would at least have the satisfaction of knowing that their daughter’s honour had been thoroughly vindicated and could rest a little more easy in the wake of such an appalling tragedy.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, in the House of Commons, Helen Goodman sought to amend this Bill to allow certain categories of close relatives to bring defamation actions in respect of statements made about a deceased person up to a year after that person’s death. That amendment is in the same area—in principle if not in effect—as that of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, today. She drew substantially on the Watson case and gave a compelling argument that this set of circumstances was crying out for redress. I do not intend to add to what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has said today, but the Watson case was one of three examples she used, and it is a particularly shocking case.
The family suffered greatly, losing two children as the result of a series of incidents, and then on the day of the funeral of their son, who undoubtedly killed himself because of the way in which his sister’s reputation was trashed, the allegations were repeated in an attempt to try to justify them. We sought to divide the Committee in the House of Commons on this issue—not, as my honourable friend Rob Flello explained, because we thought that the Government’s position in resisting the amendment could be criticised, but because of these shocking circumstances and other cases like it. Unfortunately there are far too many cases that are crying out for resolution and some remedy in the form of a response by government and politicians which recognises that there is a need at least to try to protect the reputation of a family and their daughter in these dreadful circumstances.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
Leaving aside smoking for the moment, how does the noble Lord respond to these various committees all pointing out the impossibility of there being a fair trial when one of the parties in a personal tort like this is dead? It is impossible to conduct a trial after death. This is a matter that one has to respond to if one is going to advocate a change in the law.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am enormously grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, but perhaps my powers of advocacy have failed me with him once more. I thought I made it clear that I do not support the amendment for many of the reasons he rehearsed by reference to the document he read from—I am not sure what it was, perhaps it was the report of the Neill committee.
For all the reasons I have evinced, I think that it would be impossible to make this work, and I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, also probably thinks that it would be incredibly difficult. I just want to repeat the point that we have some obligation not only to the Watson family but to many other people who have to live with the consequences of this sort of behaviour. We have to apply our minds to trying to find some way of giving them redress or at least a way of healing the damage that is done post mortem to the reputations of people who cannot defend themselves.
Lord Scott of Foscote
My Lords, perhaps I may add to what has been said. The inability to bring an action for defamation on behalf someone who is deceased does not prevent action being taken to prevent repetition of the untrue allegations that are being made if it can be shown that their repetition is likely to cause a breach of the peace. I came across such a case when I was a barrister and was once instructed to do something to stop lies, as I was told, being told about a deceased public figure. I said that defamation was not a runner but that one could get an injunction, not damages, to stop a repetition if there was a real likelihood of a breach of the peace. However, for that purpose, one had to get the consent of the Attorney-General. I applied to the Attorney-General, who refused to give his consent, and that was the end of the matter.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, some believe that corporations should not be allowed to sue for libel at all. I think that that is wrong because although the feelings of a corporation cannot be hurt, it can be hurt in other ways, such as hurt to its reputation and trade.
In my Private Member’s Bill, I included a requirement of serious financial loss or likelihood of it, but I was not able to persuade Ministers or their officials that that was necessary because I think they took the view that it was quite clear as a matter of common law and therefore did not need to be spelt out in a Bill. Therefore, I am particularly enthusiastic about supporting these amendments which seek to do what I thought should have been done in the first place, as it were.
The problem of David and Goliath, to which the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, referred, which may apply to a very powerful claimant or a very powerful defendant, cannot be tackled by the Bill on its own but needs to be tackled holistically. Above all, it needs to be tackled by wise case management. I do not say this because I am sitting opposite three distinguished former members of the judiciary but because I have enough confidence in the judiciary and in the common sense of judges to know that if they are given enough encouragement—as I am sure they will be by the Master of the Rolls and through changes in the Civil Procedure Rules and so on—to grab a case at the beginning and to find ways of trying to equalise the unequal power of parties, they will do so. They can do so in a lot of ways that do not need to be in the Bill itself. They can do so through the application of the Civil Procedure Rules or by the application of common sense. For example, there is no reason why a judge cannot cap costs at the outset or why he or she cannot determine that there is an extremely powerful defendant or claimant and that the other party is unable to have equality of arms. Judges can also lay down procedural steps to be taken, including alternative dispute resolution and matters of that kind. In my view all that does not need to be legislated upon by Parliament because we are trying to find out what is sensible for the legislature and the judiciary to do. My view is that you lay down some general principles but do not interfere with the discretion of the judiciary in interpreting those principles.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I apologise that I was out of the Room when the noble Lord started speaking, but I substantially agree with him. In fact I totally agree with him that the management of cases by the judiciary can make a significant difference to the length, complexity and cost; it can deal with all of those issues. Will he at some stage in our debate—it may not be appropriate to do it now, but we will get an opportunity—with his vast knowledge of the courts we are talking about here, and I do not have that knowledge, explain why that appears not to have been happening? What are the impediments to it? How can we address them? Has the holistic approach failed? If it has failed in his view up until now, where has it failed? That is the nub of the issue. He is conscious of the time that we are spending debating these issues—and so am I—and we may be spending our time debating the wrong things.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
I should be careful what I say, because I shall now offend some members of what is known as the libel Bar. I am not a proper defamation lawyer, although I have dabbled in it. My dealings with my colleagues at the libel Bar have led me to conclude that the great technicality and obscurity of elements in the existing law are no fault of the judges but are very much the fault of my colleagues who have enjoyed very inward introspective legal practices that have added to the problems. In the framework we now have, it is extremely hard for the judiciary to cut out the nonsense that is there as a result of my fellow practitioners. I am sorry to defame a group of them, but there it is.
The other thing I wanted to say, which my noble friend Lord Faulks has referred to, is about the unsatisfactory idea of focusing on the company as though the company is a monolithic concept. If you focus just on the company, you leave out all kinds of other powerful bodies that are not companies at all: a trade union is a good example, although that has been dealt with in the case law in a particular way; many unincorporated associations; and many bodies that are very powerful NGOs, for example. The problem with the word “company” is that it is both underinclusive and overinclusive. It is underinclusive because it does not catch other powerful bodies that are not in corporate form, and it is overinclusive because the little dress shop company that my noble friend Lord Faulks has in mind—a one-director company—is in a completely different position from McDonald’s. That is why it is fact-sensitive and can be dealt with by the judiciary only on a case-by-case basis.
The amendments that we are now considering do not trespass on the courts in overreach. They are dealing with one aspect of the problem. The holistic approach involves case management, procedural rules and guidance in order to counter the kind of problems that the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, had in mind.
I am therefore enthusiastic about these amendments, but they do not and cannot deal with the whole of the problem.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I shall also speak to Amendment 7, which stands in my name and in the name of my noble friend. The underlying purpose of this amendment is similar to that of the amendment which has just been spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney. He seeks to do much the same thing as the amendment that stands in my name, but by a requirement for action before a court action can proceed. I seek to do it by what could be called—in the context of the discussion that we have just had—a multiple fracture of the prohibition against putting case management in the Bill.
I have no delusions that this will find support in Committee because it is such a multiple fracture, but it is quite deliberately so for a purpose. It is our attempt to implement the recommendations of the Joint Committee, but it goes further and does so for very specific reasons. Those reasons are that on this side of the House we have to be convinced that the holistic approach that we favour can address the fundamental issues of the problem that is before us and has its manifestation in all the many examples that we have heard this afternoon and which are recorded faithfully in the deliberations on this Bill since it was first introduced in its draft form.
I muse here—listening to the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, speaking to us in his distinctive Northern Irish accent and as I rise to speak in my Scottish accent—that there is more than one jurisdiction in these islands. I consider also, and I have considered this in other circumstances often, that until very recently—over hundreds of years certainly as regards Scotland—this Parliament in a statutory sense legislated for more than one jurisdiction on these islands. Only one of these jurisdictions has turned into the defamation capital of the world.
The answer may be as simple as the answer given to my intervention on the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, that this is a function rather of a niche ability that has developed in the Bar in London, which cannot be contained by case management appropriately with the tools that we give to the judiciary. There may be other reasons for it, but it seems that the answer probably to what we need to do to the defamation laws of England and Wales lies somewhere in these islands.
I am not entirely sure what it is because I have no particular expertise in this area of the law, but it is curious that lawyers, judges, courts and laws that are very similar to each other have operated in these islands in distinct jurisdictions but only one of them has got into this difficulty. Trying to identify the reason for that, and to address it, is what should be exercising our minds. We may, as I suggested in my intervention, be addressing it in the right way by changing the test and by doing all the other things that are in this small but comparatively complex piece of legislation or it may be much more important that we make changes in the way in which cases are managed and in which the costs of them are racked up.
This amendment seeks to insert a clause for early resolution procedure against the background that the Government originally announced that they would do this in the draft Bill and in the Commons explained why they were not willing to do that. We have now the advantage of the letter of the noble Lord, Lord McNally. I am pleased that the document that he read out earlier in relation to cost protection is the final annexe to his letter. This document does not need to be put into the public domain; effectively, it is in the public domain in any event. With my imperfect understanding of civil procedure in England, it seems to me that this protects a party from the liability to pay the other side’s costs if a case fails—if I understand what cost protection is. This seems to me to be half the problem.
If I had to face the prospect of having to litigate in an action for defamation with a substantially wealthy opponent, no matter which side of the argument that opponent was on, I suspect that in this jurisdiction it would cost me a significant amount of money just to engage in that litigation. I would be terrified at the prospect of losing and having to pay the other side’s costs, and I am pleased to note that parties in defamation cases may be protected from that. However, the prospect of having to pay the costs of my own side would still be terrifying.
The letter goes further and provides what I hope are many of the answers to the points being raised in this debate. The documents attached to it seem to be a set of guidelines on how the Government would like the existing case management rules to be amended or applied in order to try to achieve earlier resolution. It looks at how the existing strike-out procedures should be applied. Indeed, on reading the Minister’s letter in a holistic way, it is clear that, while not using exactly the same words, many of the issues are reflected in the amendment we have tabled. However, it is important to note that in this amendment we have gone further and provided that one of the key issues to be determined, under subsection (3) of the proposed new clause, is costs management.
To save other noble Lords and noble and learned Lords from pointing out why this is an inappropriate thing to do in a Bill, perhaps I may say that I readily accept that that is right. However, I think that the Government need to be given the opportunity to spell out the steps they intend to take to address the issues that lie at the heart of the problem we are facing. If we can make a contribution towards shaping a holistic approach, despite the fact that this goes beyond what the Bill should say in the strictest sense, that will assist in increasing the confidence of Parliament in this revision of the law. What is much more important is that it will increase Parliament’s confidence that a holistic approach, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, will not quickly put us back into the situation we are in already, but that there is some hope of addressing it.
I am offering the noble Lord this amendment to provide him with an opportunity to explain in accessible terms the steps that the Government are taking which are complementary to the legislation, and to offer the Committee some assurance that not only will they be completed by the time the legislation is ready to be put into force, but that they will be effective in terms of addressing the issues that are at the heart of this problem. Before I sit down I would suggest to him that if it has not already been done, perhaps a study of how at least one of the other jurisdictions in these islands deals with defamation issues might be instructive. I will say again for the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, that of the several jurisdictions in these islands, only one of them has become the libel capital of the world.
Lord Faulks
My Lords, I understand what is behind these amendments and of course I share the desire of other noble Lords that matters should be settled or litigation avoided if that is at all possible. My noble friend Lord Mawhinney said that his committee on the whole eschewed recommendations for case management. However, by this amendment he seeks to go into that area.
A word of caution might be appropriate. There is always a danger if you set up a series of procedures to be undertaken because you will frontload costs and increase the overall bill of litigation. Although I accept what my noble friend Lord Lester said about the libel Bar and its propensity to make rather arcane rules on pleading, for example, there are specialist libel judges who are well aware of all the issues, and defendants and claimants regularly bring matters to a judge at an early stage for determination in order to serve their clients well.
I do not think that we should proceed on the basis that this is an entirely unco-ordinated, inelegant process. No doubt, improvements can be made, as the Minister will tell us. I await with interest to hear what is suggested. But I respectfully suggest that these are rather cumbersome amendments which will not, I fear, achieve what they intend to do.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I beg to move. This amendment follows very closely the wording of the draft Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, concerning a similar clause. I am confident that it will at least pass the test of being a clause that ought to be on the face of the Bill and that it does not contravene the rule we are applying to ourselves that we should not legislate for case management. The purpose of moving this amendment is to complement the stiffer or changed test that we have discussed in relation to Clause 1; this same purpose was served when an identical amendment was moved in the House of Commons. In that sense the test itself will not serve the purpose that we all seek unless it can be applied early in the proceedings. If it is obvious that the claim being made cannot meet the test, the action can be struck out. In my view, with which I think the Government agree, an effective strike-out procedure is necessary to ensure that trivial and vexatious claims are struck out at the earliest possible opportunity.
We seek to put this procedure into the Bill because in this legislation we are seeking to make the law as clear as it possibly can be for the ordinary citizen. We seek to encourage those who are not legally qualified with the assurance that if there is utter merit in their position, they will be able to resist an action brought against them by having recourse to a strike-out procedure at an early stage of their engagement in legal proceedings. The amendment therefore seeks to add a strike-out provision to Clause 1 by means of a new clause that would imposes a duty on the court to strike out an action if it does not satisfy the serious harm test in Clause 1. It would allow the court to do that either of its own accord or on the application of a party. I note from the annexes and the letter dated 10 December 2012 that the Government themselves seek to create a series of opportunities in which a case can be struck out on the application of a party, or at a later stage in the process by the court of its own accord. To that degree, we are not entirely in sync, but we are in agreement.
When this point was raised in the House of Commons, the Minister said that the Government’s position was that they did not consider a provision for strike-out to be necessary. I anticipate that the Minister will respond that it is the intention of the Government to revisit the normal rules, in particular Rule 3.4, which is the rule that is referred to in the noble Lord’s letter. It is our firm belief on these Benches that this of itself will not and cannot be guaranteed to be sufficient. Putting this provision in the Bill will not in any way undermine the ability of the rule to be applied, but there is a distinct difference between what the Minister and the Government seek and what we on these Benches seek. The existing rule says that the court may strike out the claim. This provision would require the court to strike out the claim.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I may have been rather hasty in saying that the Lord Chancellor is in favour of county courts, but I am going to rush back to the MoJ and tell him to get it on the record quick because there seems to be so much support for them. It is an interesting point and again I can see the value in the recommendation as just read out by my noble friend Lord Mawhinney. Along with other matters, I will ponder on it. I did not say that we could not legislate for case management, but I want to hear the arguments. As for my noble friend’s suggestion that the Lord Chancellor might be afraid of doing this because of a fear of offending the judiciary, that is not something I have heard said about the Lord Chancellor very often in recent weeks.
Amendment 6 deals with the issue of strike-out. It would put a new strike-out power into the Bill that would require the courts to strike out actions that do not meet a certain threshold unless the interests of justice require otherwise. We do not consider that there is any need for this provision. As I indicated when responding to Amendment 3, the serious harm test in Clause 1 and the new early resolution procedures will ensure that the court has at the forefront of its mind the need to make sure that trivial and unfounded claims do not proceed. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, anticipated, I will also argue that the courts already have a power in Rule 3.4 of the Civil Procedure Rules which permits them to strike out all or part of a claim where there are no reasonable grounds for bringing it or they consider it to be an abuse of process. The courts are very familiar with that power, and we have no doubt that they will use it more in defamation cases once the new higher threshold is in place. As I have said before, one of the aims of this Bill is to make the law simpler, so unnecessary duplication such as that proposed in this new clause would conflict with that aim.
As we have explained in the note recently provided to Peers, we intend to make changes through the Civil Procedure Rules to ensure that the key preliminary issues are determined at as early a stage in the proceedings as possible. Where the question of whether the claimant has suffered or is likely to suffer serious harm is in dispute, this is one of the main issues that the court could be asked to consider under the new procedure. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I shall do my best to get my words in the right order, something that I am learning to do every day in your Lordships’ House. I thank the Minister for a response which to a degree I anticipated when moving the amendment. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, for complicating quite considerably my deliberations on this issue. I think I understood his point about the absence of the serious harm test in his Bill, and I know that the Government have prayed that in aid as part of the reason it is not necessary to provide for a strike-out procedure in this Bill. I shall also interrogate the Lugano Convention argument to see whether it has a significant effect on the existing rules of court that the Government are also praying in aid as part of their argument for why this is not necessary.
I thank the Minister for the detail set out in his response, and as I have said before, I am willing to have faith in an holistic approach in our deliberations, as it has become known. If we can have some transparency in the other elements of the holistic approach and be satisfied that they will meet our collective desire to offer the opportunity for people to reach early resolution in disputes of this kind in an affordable way and in a timescale that makes sense in relation to the issues, I am content to beg leave to withdraw my amendment. However, I am sure that we will come back to this issue later, if not in the form of an amendment, at least as part of our further debate.
Defamation Bill
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Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his welcome. I had not expected to deal with this legislation and I have spent quite a substantial part of the Recess reading up. For a moment, I thought that I had missed something else. I knew that there was a failure of communication over the content of the reshuffle in certain places and I wondered if the noble Lord, Lord McNally, maybe knew something about a phone call that I should have got during the reshuffle that did not materialise. I also take this opportunity to welcome the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, to his post in the department. I look forward to working with him closely on the Bill and to his educating me on the detail, to the extent that I have been unable to master it so far.
We support the Bill to the extent that it seeks to reform our outdated libel laws. We also support it because—as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, made plain—it has its roots in what the previous Government did and because all three main political parties committed themselves to reforming defamation law in their election manifestos. However, as the Minister reminded us in his letter yesterday, that commitment to reform was translated in the coalition agreement to a commitment to review the law of libel to protect free speech. The word “reform” somehow fell off the agreement when the two parties went into discussion on a commitment to reform.
The first question for the Minister is whether the Bill, which in its present form largely codifies, and reforms little, is a reflection of the commitment of the coalition Government or is the aggregate position of two reforming parties on defamation law. The Minister, or the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, may have an opportunity to enlighten me about that at some stage during the course of this debate.
We support the Bill, but are critical friends of it and hope to see it amended significantly during its passage through your Lordships’ House. I thank the Minister both for his speech of introduction and for the helpful letter that he circulated yesterday, I believe to all Members of the House. I am told by informed sources that he is the department’s principal promoter of the Bill and is the Minister who was responsible for piloting it through the Committee stage in the House of Commons. Apparently the Commons did not share his passion for reform of this area of law; accordingly we have high hopes of him.
Before I turn to specific clauses of the Bill, I want to associate myself with the words of the Minister to the extent that he has recorded thanks and appreciation to those who have played a role in getting the Bill to this stage. I associate myself with the recognition of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, of the role played by the Libel Reform Campaign and others too numerous to mention. If the Minister will excuse me, I will not go through the exhaustive list of all those who have been lobbying us—our inboxes are all full of their briefings on this. I am sure your Lordships will want to pay tribute to my right honourable friend Jack Straw and the working group that he established when he was Secretary of State, and of course to the Joint Committee of both Houses, under the able leadership of the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, which scrutinised the draft Bill. It is also appropriate to recognise the sustained contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, particularly in relation to his original Private Member’s Bill and beyond. I suspect that both the Joint Committee report and the Private Member’s Bill will prove to be sources of inspiration when we come to Committee.
It is important that in any review and reform of defamation laws we get the right balance between freedom of speech and expression on the one hand and protecting reputations on the other. There have been justified concerns that our defamation laws are outdated, have fallen behind technological developments, have restricted freedom of expression and have attracted libel tourism. I say “our” defamation laws despite standing here as a Scottish lawyer and never having practised in English law, if noble Lords will excuse that poetic licence for the purpose of making my points.
The current system is also skewed by the high cost of defamation proceedings. The Defamation Bill should leave us with laws that are clearer and, much more importantly, more proportionate. As I have already made clear, we welcome a number of elements of this Bill. However, we are disappointed with the way in which the Government have approached it in the other place and feel an opportunity has been wasted, thus far, to reform and improve our defamation laws. What we have here, subject to one or two minor changes, is not reform but codification. As we know, a Joint Committee of both Houses scrutinised the draft Bill and came forward with a number of suggestions for how the final Bill could be improved. Many of these were ignored by the Government. In the House of Commons, we were concerned that the Bill as originally published did not address a number of problems and we sought to amend the Bill to improve it. The Government refused to take on board suggested amendments, although they turned up on Report with two of those amendments, redrafted, which were accepted. We will revisit many of these in Committee but this is not the time to go through the detail of the Committee stage.
Finally, the Government so far have failed to publish much of the detail of the Bill in the form of regulations and guidance. I listened carefully to the Minister’s assurances about what we can expect in the future. They have repeatedly been asked to publish more information on regulations and other parts of the infrastructure that are important to understand the effects of this Bill but so far have refused to do so. It is undoubtedly the case that for this and other reasons, although this will be in Committee relatively soon, it will be difficult properly to scrutinise and discuss many aspects of the proposals in the Bill in the absence of that information. We will not be able to work out what this will mean on the ground unless we have some sense of the infrastructure in which it is to sit.
I listened carefully to the warning from the noble Lord, Lord McNally, in relation to what I am about to do. The conclusion of the passage of the Bill will come shortly before the anticipated report by Lord Justice Leveson. It comes in the context of a continuing but as yet unshaped review of the law of privilege, and with the failure of the Government to show their hand on the rules on cost protection for defamation in privacy claims. All the regulations that we have been promised will be required for significant parts of the Bill.
The Bill consequently sits in a much broader, potentially confused and changing landscape. This may not be able to be fully clarified by the Government during their deliberations. However the maximum amount of clarity must be given to ensure that this set of reforms or changes will be sustainable beyond those that we can expect from the Government and the response to Lord Justice Leveson, or in relation to the changes in the rules for the court or the rules on costs.
This is a relatively small Bill, now with 17 clauses. I will deal with these clauses relatively quickly, concentrating on where we see the need for further scrutiny, or have criticisms or proposals for amendment in mind. Clause 1 seeks to impose a higher threshold for bringing a claim, a requirement that a statement must have caused “serious harm” to be defamatory. We support this higher hurdle for the reasons set out but believe that there needs to be greater clarity as to what “serious harm” would mean in practice. We will probe the Government to get that clarity in Committee. Clauses 2 to 7 set out the defences that will be available for a claim of defamation. Some replace or codify common-law defences; others create new defences. We will probe the Government’s thinking in relation to Clauses 2 and 3, but we broadly support them and see them as an improvement in the law.
We will test whether, as drafted, Clause 4’s intention to address responsible publication of matters of public interest makes the law clearer and more readily applicable outside mainstream journalism as claimed. The Government’s assertion that it does is not supported by the evidence of the Libel Reform Campaign. Simply replacing an existing defence that does not work and is not accessible with the statutory codification of it does not solve the problem. More importantly, there is a growing and persuasive argument that there is a place for a whole new approach to this issue, either through a new and effective public interest defence in addition to what is in the Bill, or by sweeping away what is presently in the Bill and recasting it.
On Report in the other place, the Under-Secretary of State, Mrs Helen Grant, indicated that the new ministerial team had an open mind about that proposal. This is what I believe the rather enigmatic Clause 7, mentioned on page 2 of yesterday’s letter from the noble Lord, Lord McNally, refers to. He expanded on that today and has told us that is exactly what he has an open mind about. It would be helpful if we heard discussions across those interested parties and across the House to see whether we can come to agreement on a reform or recasting of this part of the Bill to make sure that it passes the test that he set in his letter to us yesterday.
We think that Clause 5 is ill thought-out and incomplete. It creates a new defence for the operators of websites where a defamation action is brought against them in respect of a statement posted on their website. Importantly, the detail of the defence—we are told—will be provided in draft regulations which we have not yet seen and the shape of which we do not know. We have requested that the regulations be approved through affirmative rather than negative resolution procedure because they are so significantly important to this process, but so far that change has not been accepted. It may be that this new listening department will be prepared to reconsider that. This is a key area. Technological developments have advanced much quicker than our laws, and we need well thought-out and potentially sustainable reform because this area of our life moves much quicker than any other. We will need to try to anticipate how those who wish to defeat any regulation we put in place will move in order to defeat that regulation. We will be seeking more clarity on this clause, and seeking to amend it in Committee.
We welcome Clauses 6 and 7 and are pleased that the Government followed the committee’s recommendations and, particularly, that Clause 6 introduces a new defence of qualified privilege relating to peer-reviewed material in scientific and academic journals. Clause 8 introduces a single publication rule to prevent an action being brought in relation to publication of the same material by the same publisher after a one-year limitation period. We support this clause.
Clause 9 addresses libel tourism. Concerns have been expressed that defamation law in England and Wales is more protective of reputation than elsewhere in the world and that London has become the preferred location for defamation actions involving parties with only a tenuous link to the jurisdiction. Although the extent of this issue is subject to debate, while we agree with the need to reduce the potential for trivial claims and address libel tourism—whatever its extent—we think that the necessary changes should be made to the Civil Procedure Rules before the Bill comes into force, so that we are able to discuss the practical implications of this change.
We support the objective of Clause 10—to limit the circumstances under which an action can be brought against someone who is not the primary publisher of the statement—but do not think it affords sufficient protection. We tabled a number of amendments in the other place and we will revisit almost all of these.
We support Clause 11 but would like to see detailed guidance relating to the criteria for the judge to consider when deciding whether a jury trial should be ordered. I digress from my notes here to remind noble Lords that I am a Scottish lawyer. I practised all of my life in a jurisdiction where we did not have the deference to jury trials that the English jurisdiction has. I did it also during a period when we shared a Parliament—when both Houses of this Parliament regularly legislated for the administration of justice both in civil and criminal jurisdiction in a non-jury environment without any demur or question as to whether or not it was doing injustice.
Since I have become a parliamentarian, I have listened to hours of English men and women saying that the only way to deliver justice is through a jury trial, and that any other way of doing it is an injustice. I am always mildly amused by that, as your Lordships can imagine. Although now that we have our own Parliament things are different, there are hundreds of years of this Parliament legislating for a country in which the prosecutor decided whether you got a jury trial. It did that without any concern at all. I say finally, to summarise and get myself out of this kind of cul-de-sac that I have got myself into, that I could paper the wall with the names of miscarriages of justice that I have witnessed in courts, many of which have been perpetrated by juries. Anyway, we support Clause 11—but would like to see the detailed guidance relating to how the judge will apply it—and we welcome Clauses 12, 13 and 14.
The Bill does not make any specific provision for costs or striking out claims. Instead, we are asked to accept the assurance of the Minister and his ministerial colleagues that these issues will be dealt with elsewhere. I remind the noble Lord, Lord McNally, that during the progress of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill to which he referred earlier, he gave my noble friend Lord Prescott an assurance that the problem which my noble friend identified about costs in defamation actions would, and I quote narrowly here, have to,
“be dealt with fully in that Defamation Bill”.—[Official Report, 27/3/12; col. 1332.]
Now, that is not dealt with in this Bill but now the noble Lord gives another set of assurances that we have to accept as to how it will be dealt with. We are concerned about access to justice under the Bill and would like to see the issue of costs addressed in it. The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 has abolished the recoverability of success fees and after-the-event insurance premiums. Claimants in defamation actions will no longer be able to insure themselves against costs—and even if they are successful, they may have to pay some of their damages in lawyers’ fees. There are a number of possible ways to address defamation costs, one of which the noble Lord, Lord McNally, explained to us, but we intend to explore all of them in Committee in the hope that we can find something that will allow the noble Lord to make good on his commitment to my noble friend Lord Prescott.
We would like a provision for striking out claims included in the Bill and hope to discuss in Committee the possibility of including a provision to that effect in Clause 1. We intend to table again the suggestion from the committee that corporations should be able to instigate proceedings but that the threshold should be higher for them: that is, where the corporation can prove substantial financial loss. We are concerned that the continued inequality of arms between parties will continue to limit access to justice for many less wealthy claimants.
In my short experience of your Lordships’ House, it is not uncommon for speeches here to be peppered with comments that legislation has left the House of Commons incomplete and barely scrutinised, leaving much work for this House to do. What is less common is that a Bill is sent on its way from the House of Commons with almost every speaker there saying that the degree of scrutiny and revision necessary will have to be carried out by this House because it has not been carried out by their House. However, that is exactly what was said repeatedly by Members of all parties, including Ministers, when the Bill was read for a third time in the House of Commons on 12 September.
In his contribution to Third Reading, the Secretary of State for Justice paid tribute to my right honourable friends in the Commons for the measured, constructive and thorough way in which the Bill proceedings had been conducted. We intend to continue that approach and expect in return that the Government’s promise of an open-minded approach, made repeatedly during Report and Third Reading in the Commons and repeated by the Minister in his letter yesterday, will be lived up to.
Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill
Lord Browne of Ladyton Excerpts(14 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord McNally
Again, I hope that people read Hansard as I deliberately did not make that mistake but I understand the noble Earl’s sensitivity on this. The other point was that not only does this amendment have another of those amazing fractions in it but, in my brief, there is the Gaelic name for the Western Isles. I was happy to notice that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, did not try the Gaelic name, so I will be excused as well.
The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, gave me some wise advice. In fact, I was trying to encourage him to be my adviser for the rest of the Bill but he wanted to protect his amateur status as an adviser to the Government. However, he said that you should not be afraid to take decisions at the Dispatch Box. The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, is making a very valid point: the final calculation of exclusions may not be what is in the Bill. On the other hand, they may be, because the other place will have to look at what we send back to it. This is not an empty gesture; I really would like to take this back with the intention of bringing something back on Report.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
If I have understood the effect of this amendment and the existing drafting of the Bill, an amended clause of this nature could persist in the Bill even if the other place overturned any additional constituencies that were added to the list. In fact, this amendment creates a Bill that is proofed against any changes, whether they persist or not. This is actually a better piece of drafting than the original, which had a figure in it, because it is a calculation that will persist in any set of circumstances.
Lord McNally
I hear what the noble Lord says and I hear my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay behind me saying that he is right. All that I am asking, being a simple Lancashire lad, is to take this back with a firmness for Report. If what the noble Lord is saying is absolutely right, I assure the Committee that this will go in at Report.
Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill
Lord Browne of Ladyton Excerpts(14 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Grocott, I had not intended to speak in this debate but he encouraged me to do so with his introductory remarks. I rise to do two things. First, I remind your Lordships that, far from the European Convention on Human Rights being some foreign, European imposition on our culture, it was in many ways our post-war gift to the rest of Europe. The convention was largely drafted by British jurists. The structure that was put in place to enforce those conventional rights was part of that gift, which we encouraged upon the rest of Europe. This is a very British thing to do in many ways. It has taken decades for this issue to come before the court and for the court to give its opinion and impose back upon us, as it were, an interpretation of those rules that allows prisoners the legal right to vote. It has its roots in our own jurisprudence and legal thought. We should not in any sense blame this on others or suggest that it is being imposed on us.
Secondly, I support and commend my noble friend Lord Foulkes for raising this issue here, although it will not result in amendment of the Bill or in the opportunity, at last, for us to live up to the consequences of the judgment, do what will inevitably need to be done and deal with the issue—to grasp the nettle, as another noble Lord suggested. However, it gives the coalition Government’s Front Bench an opportunity to reassure your Lordships’ House that we will not find ourselves in a situation where they give either a subset or all of this group of people a vote by decisions made through legislation in this House, and then immediately deny those persons their say in a referendum. That would be an entirely inconsistent position. I look for assurances from the noble Lord, Lord McNally, that the Government will do everything they can to ensure that, if they intend to give prisoners or any class of prisoners the vote, the legislation will allow prisoners to express their preference in a referendum.
There are several practical considerations. For example, in the other place I represented a constituency that had a large prison in it. Working out whether those people were best served by maintaining their relationship with the Member of Parliament who represented them in their home patch or whether they were my constituents for the issues that they raised with me, exercised my mind on many an occasion. These issues have to be resolved and worked through and they are by no means straightforward.
I remember being told many decades ago by a governor of Barlinnie prison that part of the problem was that we had not appreciated that we send people to prison as punishment, not for punishment. This was at a time when the Scottish prison system was in complete turmoil; we were caging people within cells in Porterfield prison in Inverness to control their behaviour. Many people are punished further than the courts intend by being denied that right and that responsibility when they are in prison. For the bulk of our prison population, whether they lose their vote is entirely a matter of luck. Most of them are in and out in such a short period that, if there is a coincidence of an election, it is entirely a matter of luck—to do with how their case is dealt with, the time involved and the proceedings—whether they are denied a vote. It is not as if everybody who is convicted of a crime between elections is denied a vote in the next election; it is entirely a matter of random luck. The sooner we resolve the issue, the better. The opportunity that my noble friend has given us to air some of these issues has benefited this House and the debate. I commend him once again for introducing this matter.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick
My Lords, I can be very brief, mainly because I have not so far taken any part in the issue which has been urged for so long and so very effectively by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. However, I have listened to the debate this afternoon, and it seems to me that by supporting the amendment we will be taking at least a step in complying with the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights which has been outstanding for so long. It may not be the best solution—I do not know whether it is or not—but, on the principle of half a loaf being better than no bread, I lend my support to the amendment.
Lord McNally
If the Lord Chancellor said it, he must have been speculating.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
Taking into account the very wise advice from the Minister’s noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, I think that the Committee is entitled to ask the noble Lord for an assurance that the Government will promote legislation according to a timetable that does not leave this country in the ridiculous position of agreeing to allow prisoners the vote when the referendum is imminent but denying them the vote in the referendum.
Lord McNally
My Lords, if there were a general election next January, prisoners would not get the vote even if the Government had announced their intentions in December. The two things are separate. The Government will announce their intentions on prisoner voting and it will be handled in the proper way with a Statement in both Houses. As I said, the usual channels will find an opportunity for a full debate and in due course legislation will probably be brought forward. However, that legislation is separate from the legislation currently before the House, which is why—