Employment Rights Act 1996 (Protection from Detriment in Health and Safety Cases) (Amendment) Order 2021

Lord Blunkett Excerpts

Tuesday 27th April 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her explanation of what she quite rightly describes as a small but important change. I congratulate the Independent Workers’ Union on its court victory and the work done in relation to tackling what is not a new challenge but something that emerged many years ago with the lump, the dock labour schemes and the challenges of ensuring that those who were not self-employed but not directly and fully employed obtained the rights that the rest of the nation and employees take for granted.

Thinking back to my time as Work and Pensions Secretary, it is strange that we always assumed that workers and employees were one and the same thing. It has to be said, I had never come across “limb (b)” before. I hope I do not again, because I do not find it a very attractive proposition. With the vast changes now taking place in the labour market, securing rights for these workers—who, strictly speaking, are not employees, at least at the moment, but have the partial rights that employees have—needs to be taken with the view of what is happening, the challenges that will come and the way in which people find themselves in a kind of limbo.

I hope that, when she winds up, the Minister will concede that there is still much to be done; for instance, on the TUPE, or transfer of undertakings, rights of these workers—let us call them limb (b) workers—where there is a change of owner of the company that, strictly speaking, employs these workers, whose health and safety rights we are securing today with this clarification arising from the court judgment last November.

It is important that we get on the record that there is still work to be done in this area. I note that there will be a further statutory instrument later in the year, but it would be really helpful—given the Minister’s welcome commitment to workers’ rights in the context of being a great country in which to work and to be employed—if we indicated that consideration of these further areas is being undertaken. This will ensure that the flexibility in the workforce that she described morphs into something more acceptable in terms of the Ubers of this world, and that those who find themselves working in entirely different ways to the past—sometimes knowingly and with their consent, sometimes because of necessity and without their wholehearted willingness to do it—obtain the rights and privileges that others have.

The better off you are, the more lucrative your employment is likely to be and the more likely you are—until you reach the dizzy heights of portfolio working—to have really secure conditions and effective rights. Of course, the corollary at the other end of the spectrum is that you do not. Those who have are once again given unto, and those who have not sometimes see the little they have taken away. I hope that the Minister will reflect on this in responding.

Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act 2020 (Coronavirus) (Extension of the Relevant Period) Regulations 2020

Lord Blunkett Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, I chose to re-engage with the legislation—in which I played a part as the Bill passed through Parliament—to make just two very small points, which I am reinforcing from the time when I contributed originally.

My first point is to agree to and support the regulations, as I supported the Bill, but to draw the Minister’s attention to the fact that there has been some change since we last debated this. In terms of the geography of impact, the situation has dramatically changed. Areas have been designated tiers 1, 2 and 3. Those areas which have moved into tier 3, primarily in the north of England —in fact, wholly in the north of England, with the exception of Nottinghamshire—face interestingly contrasting challenges. Some businesses will of course benefit from the compulsory closure and the compensation and support that will therefore be available, both to individual employees and to the businesses themselves. That is to be welcomed. With tier 2, those businesses that are not mandated to close will feel the impact of what is, quite dramatically, a change in the economic activity in the area.

The area that I know best, which is the city of Sheffield and the Sheffield city region, moved into tier 3 from midnight on Friday evening. It is quite clear that the message that goes out, which affects people’s general activity levels, is that they should effectively be in lockdown. The consequence of that, and the economic change that it has brought, means that we will have a differential impact. I wonder whether the Minister would feel that there could be a differential date on the aspects of the legislation which relate to 31 December in particular, but also to 31 March. What leeway exists for the Government to be able to come back if that is necessary? If not, parts of the country will be hit in a very different way from the south. We are painfully aware, I think—and if we are not, we live in a cave in Derbyshire—of the real concern about the divide in our country and the impact that has.

My second point is about the level of debt overall, which has grown exponentially. Obviously, this legislation is intended to assist in terms of the immediate impact on business and the capacity to be able meet legitimate bills. I share the concern, articulated by the Minister, in relation to the supply chain. We have a real challenge there. I also feel that given the accumulation of the debt, it would be useful if he could say whether the Government have any plans to deal with the cliff edge and the transition from the legislation as it stands at the moment to the spring of next year. As it turns out, what has changed over these weeks is the apparent extension of the challenge of the virus, throughout the winter and into the spring of next year. Action must be taken to prevent the exact calamities that he referred to in moving this Motion.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Obligations of Hospitality Undertakings) (England) Regulations 2020

Lord Blunkett Excerpts

Friday 9th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

I commend the excellent speeches that have been made. I have no expertise in the relative danger of playing rugby or gathering to shoot grouse compared with the best man dancing with the bridesmaid with whom he is already living, or, for that matter, socially distanced tap dancing, which people enjoy. I agree entirely with those who have asked for consistency, logic and common sense, and policy and action based on evidence presented to us. There is logic, for instance, in taking higher education students who get infected out of local statistics, so that we do not make the mistake of enforcing additional lockdowns where they are not necessary or it has not been proved that they would actually be effective.

We should not decant, as we did in April and May, from the hospitals, meaning that literally millions of people were not getting diagnosed and treated. If we need to do that, use the Nightingale hospitals about which such a song and dance was made a few months ago. Above all, I echo the call by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for us to pull together, to work together, to use real evidence and enforce not by diktat from the centre, but by good health education and bringing people together in their own communities to reinforce local test and trace and the local actions which, in the end, will be the only thing that saves us.

Trade Bill

Lord Blunkett Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 29th September 2020 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, does not seem to be available at the moment, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall address Amendments 9 and 10. I do not have anything as profound to say as my noble friend Lord Stevenson about Walter Bagehot, but I have something to say about the importance of our parliamentary democracy. There has been considerable recent debate, both publicly and in the House, about the role of Parliament, its input as well as its scrutiny, consideration and decision-making processes, and the importance that is attached to what the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, was saying on the previous group of amendments. In fact, I thought what the noble Lord said about taking back control was so obviously on point that I can make my observations extremely brief.

If Parliament is to work at all, it is not simply to give carte blanche to the Executive. My noble friend Lord Stevenson quite rightly made the point that, were amendments to be agreed and changes made that secured the framework on which trade agreements in future are ratified, Parliament would in part have done that job. If the amendments are not agreed, of course Parliament’s ultimate sanction is to consider and vote on the agreements themselves. Given the profound nature of our withdrawal from the European Union, the change in trade policy and the terms on which other subsequent trade agreements will be reached, it is absolutely critical that that is secured.

The reason that I intended to intervene this afternoon is purely on the basis that our Executive exist within Parliament. There is no presidency appointing an Executive, nor an assembly bringing forward its own separate policy requirements. Governments are embedded in Parliament, and as such Parliament has an obligation as well as a democratic duty to ensure that it does not give away those powers unless it has secured the requirements in the framework that avoid having to do it.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for my first opportunity to speak in Committee. Since Second Reading, an all-party parliamentary group has been established on the subject of trade and export promotion, of which I am vice-chair. I raise that in order to signal that I have that additional interest which has not yet been entered in the register.

On this group, I thoroughly agree with what I took to be the import of the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson—that is, that he intends to have a substantive debate about the process for agreeing future trade agreements at a later stage. I agree with him about that; the group led by Amendment 35 seems to be more appropriate for that purpose, bringing, as it does, an amendment similar to that raised on Report in the other place by my former parliamentary neighbour, Jonathan Djanogly. So I will not go on at length about that.

At this stage we need to understand to what extent the Bill is purely for the purposes of securing continuity agreements following our exit from the European Union. Those who were with us on the debates on this subject on the Trade Bill in 2019 will recall that many amendments, just as they are this time, were put forward on the proposition that we are trying to establish what the future structure of trade agreements should look like, rather than seeking to establish what the continuity agreements after we leave the EU, carried forward, should look like.

Later amendments will look at how we might modify the constitutional reform and governance process. I think that is a better way of proceeding. I have my own amendment later for this purpose, and I think that CRaG is the basis for how we will look at future trade agreements. We can amend CRaG, and we will debate later how we might do that. I have my own proposal, but I will not go on about it now. I think it is important for us to distinguish between, on the one hand, the process of parliamentary approval of trade agreements and, on the other, separately from that, the implementation into domestic legislation of the obligations we enter into through international trade agreements and treaties.

A treaty entered into by the Government cannot itself change domestic law. Therefore, legislation is required to implement it, so will the Minister tell us two things in response to this early debate? First, will he repeat at this stage what our noble friend Lady Fairhead said on 21 January 2019 in the first day in Committee on the then Trade Bill? She said:

“We have already been clear that we will introduce bespoke legislation as necessary to implement those future free trade agreements. The Secretary of State for International Trade has already launched four consultations on prospective future trade agreements and announced that the Government will introduce bespoke primary legislation as necessary to implement these.”—[Official Report, 21/1/19; col. 613.]


I am hoping that my noble friend the Minister will say that, whether the number is four or more, the same process will apply in future. Of course, from my point of view that means that we do not need to specify what should be in future trade agreements and, by extension, change the law in this country, because, when the time comes, if the Government seek such a thing they would have to secure the consent of Parliament in primary legislation to do whatever they wish to do under those trade agreements. We do not need to have all those debates now.

The second thing is that I am hoping, as my noble friend the Minister knows, that he will reiterate the Government’s commitments, given early in the passage of the previous Trade Bill, to the processes for the future scrutiny and parliamentary approval of free trade agreements, published in the early part of 2019. If he can do that, it would help a great deal from the point of view of simplifying scrutiny of these and future amendments.

As for this group, Amendment 7 is a matter, strictly speaking, of semantics. To Ministers, if certain regulations are necessary to implement an agreement, then, in their view, they would be appropriate. If Ministers think something is appropriate, they always think it is also necessary. That is why, although the dictionary may not regard these two terms as meaning the same, in the mind of a Minister, they are the same.

Amendment 9 deals with the question of ratification. It says that the agreements that have to be implemented should not simply have been signed but should be ratified. It relates this, of course, to exit day for these agreements. I remind the Committee that we have passed exit day. After exit day it was the case, for example—I do not know how many examples there are, but it is a rather compelling one—that all member states of the European Union that were required to ratify the comprehensive agreement with Canada, CETA, had not so ratified. So, for example, the Dutch parliament ratified that agreement in July of this year: it was after exit day. The example I would draw, which I think is a compelling reason not to accept Amendment 9, is that it would have the consequence that the Canada-EU agreement would not satisfy the requirements of the legislation.

Corporate Insolvency and Governance Bill

Lord Blunkett Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 23rd June 2020 Lords Chamber

With reference to a comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, it is important to remind ourselves that, in private sector schemes, there are more than 10 million pensions in payment or due to be paid in the future. We have to balance the interests of a very sizeable group of people, as the Minister recognised. The Secretary of State has extensive powers under this Bill. Given the complex and uncertain impact of these provisions, will the Government continue to monitor closely and consult on the impact of the provisions embraced by these government amendments and commit to responding quickly where perverse behaviours become apparent?

[Lord Blunkett (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it had been my intention to speak on the final day of Committee but, because of an administrative blip, my name went in at entirely the wrong time.

I am pleased that the Government have been prepared to move on this area, as they have on other parts of this complex and detailed Bill. Like my noble friend Lord Hain, I was the Pensions Minister for a time, at the time when the Pension Protection Fund was being brought into full operation. It built on the incredible work—unsung and unknown to many people—of my good friend Andrew Smith, the previous Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, was a lobbyist at the time. I remember the withering nature of her commentary on what we were doing. I cannot ever remember the noble Baroness giving us credit for anything, but now she probably thinks that, 15 years ago, we were doing the right thing. This is why I take seriously what she has said in relation to contingent assets and their likely disposal.

Consequent to what my noble friend Lady Drake said about the Pension Schemes Bill, can the Minister say whether, with regard to the legislation that is being brought forward by the Government to protect our crucial national infrastructure from the sale of assets which would otherwise be detrimental to our economy and to the supply chain, which has arisen from the experience of the last four months, there can be an interrelationship between the different pieces of legislation? That is so that we can be clear not only about the rules that are being applied and the power that would exist for the Pension Protection Fund if this amendment is passed but about how we can ensure that one piece of legislation relates directly to and integrates with another piece of the Government’s policy. If we can get them to act together, some of the fears that have been raised can be allayed.

[Lord Fox]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this important debate. I am a signatory to Amendment 15 and I thank my noble friend Lady Bowles, the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for co-signing it. I join other Peers in acknowledging that the Government have moved in terms of listening to the previous debate and going forward, but the issue that Amendment 15 seeks to address is a serious one. If this Bill went through without the sorts of assurances that we are looking for from the Minister, or remained unamended, that would create a huge issue for pension trustees all over the country. Never mind the ones that are going into insolvency—as the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, set out so eloquently, every single pension trustee would revisit every single pledged asset and would go back to the management of their sponsoring companies to ask for cash instead. I do not need to remind the Minister that cash flow is one of the biggest challenges facing businesses at the moment; it is actually cash that is the problem. To knowingly put in a measure that will drain profitable businesses of cash would be careless, and I do not think that that is what the Government are doing. I think this is an unknowing consequence of the Bill.

To be clear, this concerns assets that have already been pledged. When the Minister spoke earlier, he seemed to be referring to assets being pledged at the time of insolvency, but these are assets which have been pledged in lieu of cash. Given that, I am a little bemused by the idea put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, that the Pension Protection Fund would somehow be overreaching itself in seeking to protect these funds for pensioners and that it would be giving the PPF too much power. Rather, it is merely the power to protect assets that have been signed over to the pension fund. If they were not assets such as those set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann—real estate and securities—then it would be money. I do not think that the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, is proposing that the courts should have the power to extract money from pension funds, so why should they not have the power to protect against judges extracting assets that have been put aside in lieu of money?

The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, put a clear question to the Minister, one that I think is very apposite to this point. Does the PPF have the power to prevent judges extracting pledged assets from pension funds and putting them into the pool of assets for distribution to other creditors? If the Minister is able to stand up and say that clearly and unambiguously—for those Members watching remotely, it does not look like he is—there is no problem. However, if the Bill leaves this House unamended or without that pledge, this issue will become a very serious one not just for the pension funds of distressed companies but for every defined benefit pension fund in the country.

Corporate Insolvency and Governance Bill

Lord Blunkett Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 9th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Blunkett (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I concur with many of the comments that have already been made. I support the thrust of the Bill.

I want to talk about the immediate situation and, therefore, the moratorium. I welcome it but, like my noble friend Lord Stevenson, I think that, in its initial implementation, it is in danger of being too short to be meaningful to many small and medium-sized enterprises. It is about enterprise and entrepreneurship—that is, not just maintaining what we have now but encouraging and supporting those coming out of the virus crisis, as well as providing a bedrock for the future. Would the Minister be kind enough to say a little more about the intentions of using secondary legislation if the initial moratorium period is not to be extended in the Bill?

It would also be useful to know more about the positive role of insolvency practitioners, rather than their negative one. There is potential here to be extremely helpful to those who have a major part to play in the future of our economy but currently face a dangerous potential cliff edge if investors trigger their demise.

Mention has been made of corporate responsibility, not least by my noble friend; I agree in relation to employees but it also applies more widely. I wonder whether we could encourage larger companies to see their supply chain as crucial to them rather than sometimes exploiting their weaknesses, because this is very much about where power lies. I also wonder whether they could mentor and support as part of the recovery programme, and therefore be a positive gain.

I very much welcome at least temporary help with personal liability. For people taking up the opportunity to start a new business and those who are clinging on to survival by their fingertips, personal liability and the reputation that goes with it are important. If we can get this right and avoid those people who deliberately exploit the situation then come back in a different guise with exactly the same company—the bad eggs, to echo the reference made by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe—while ensuring that personal liability absolutely does not discourage people or create unnecessary fearfulness at this moment in time, that would be a very substantial step forward.

It is important that these measures, temporary as many of them are, are seen in the context of the long term. We should therefore see what works and try in future to build in those aspects that have been beneficial to both British enterprise and our wider social well-being.

Covid-19: Businesses and the Private Sector

Lord Blunkett Excerpts

Thursday 21st May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, on his initiative in getting this debate. I assure him that I am neither elderly nor infirm. In my two minutes, I wish to emphasise the importance of both private and not-for-profit organisations and businesses, not only in seeing us through these last 10 difficult weeks but for the future.

From care homes to transport operators, from equipment manufacturers to those producing, distributing and delivering food, we have seen the most enormous initiative, of which the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, has spoken. He mentioned the “golden triangle” universities. I would like to see the initiative shown there replicated across the country. If the Government’s agenda is to be balanced, including in recovery, and if we are to invest in productivity and recovery right across the nation, we will need to see that public-private partnership, research and knowledge transfer, manufacturing and innovation all coming together. I hope that the north of England—not just west but east of the Pennines—can replicate that. The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, mentioned the initiatives that have been shown, including by McLaren. The Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre here in the city of Sheffield will be an exemplar for the future, perhaps by linking the university with those across the Pennines.

Will the Minister place emphasis, along with the sustainability research task force, on that rebalancing of the economy, the initiative and innovation of recovery, and on the entrepreneurship that comes from people working together?

Covid-19: Business

Lord Blunkett Excerpts

Wednesday 13th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

As usual, my noble friend raises very good points. I point him towards the future fund, which will be launched this month and will provide convertible loans ranging from £125,000 to £5 million to UK-based companies, subject to at least equal match funding from private investors. These convertible loans may be a suitable option for many businesses that rely on equity investment and are unable to access the CBILS. These companies will be vital in ensuring that the UK retains its world-leading position in science, innovation and technology.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

I assure the Minister that I am very supportive of trying to overcome the challenge of persuading people to go back to work without ending up with gross pollution and congestion. However, in light of the interview that the Secretary of State for Transport undertook this morning on Radio 4, what advice are the Government giving to employers who find that their staff are refused access to public transport, whose consequent late or non-arrival at work puts their jobs in jeopardy?

[Lord Callanan]

Of course, we want employers to be as flexible as possible and to consider, for instance, staggering arrival and departure times from work to enable people to avoid peak times wherever possible. As I said, we are also encouraging people to walk and cycle wherever they can; we recently announced a £250 million emergency active travel fund to help with that. Ultimately, it will require both employees and employers to work together to take into account each other’s needs and to use common sense.

Industrial Strategy

Lord Blunkett Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

When a similar question was put to my right honourable friend in another place, he made it clear that he had very recently spoken to his opposite number in Wales. That process will continue in Wales and Scotland. My right honourable friend and other Ministers, as appropriate, depending on who is where at any given time, will talk to all Ministers in the devolved Administrations in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. I will certainly play my part as much as possible in that. There will also be adequate resources for the devolved Administrations from their own budgets to do this as appropriate. Whether the noble Lord will consider that adequate is obviously another matter, because no doubt he will be screaming for more—but then he would say that, wouldn’t he?

We will continue to talk with our opposite numbers in the three devolved Administrations. I am sure they will want to make a success of this just as much as we do. That is why I pointed out that we have problems with productivity imbalances between our UK averages and those of other parts of the United Kingdom. It would be right to try to address those imbalances.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my registered interests related to education, skills and employment. I welcome this substantive document, not least because Friedrich von Hayek will be turning in his grave due to government being part of the solution, rather than always being the problem.

Will the Minister be willing to have a word with his opposite numbers in the Department for Education? Following on from my noble friend’s question, I am deeply concerned about the capacity to meet the apprenticeships and skills challenge and to provide the wherewithal to match the desirable input into employment. Because he is new to his post the Minister will not know that, following the Green Paper and a meeting earlier this year of representatives of all the major infrastructure projects, the decision was taken to make a joint submission drawing attention to the need to map where skill shortages will occur and how they could be met by putting forward passportable skills, and to ensure we draw people back into the labour market. Will he ask his ministerial friends in the Department for Education to kindly invite representatives of those major infrastructure projects to what is being described as a skills summit on Thursday, so we can get it right for the future?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am fully aware that a great many noble Lords want to come in with questions on this Statement, so I will try to keep my answers short. I am aware of what the noble Lord had to say, and I am certainly aware of the need to make sure we continue to talk to our colleagues in the Department for Education. I am also aware that those colleagues were present when the Statement was made in another place, as were colleagues from other departments. We will certainly make sure that they are aware of the noble Lord’s concerns and that they take appropriate action.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Lord Blunkett Excerpts

Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharkey]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly in support of Amendment 495, which was tabled by my noble friend Lord Willis and to which I have added my name. It amends Clause 89(4). Clause 89 defines the fields of activity for each of the research councils. It goes on, in subsection (4), to say:

“Arrangements under this section must require the Council concerned, when exercising any function to which the arrangements relate, to have regard to the desirability of … contributing to economic growth in the United Kingdom, and … improving quality of life (whether in the United Kingdom or elsewhere)”.


The requirements are a little vague, and the obligation to “have regard to the desirability of” is very weak. But the intent seems to me to be clear, and the two desiderata seem to need a third to achieve any kind of balance. The priority for any research council should surely be to increase the UK’s science and knowledge base. Contributing to economic growth and improving the quality of life are good and desirable objectives, as are the others that we have discussed this afternoon, but they must be subordinate to the objective of improving the science and knowledge base. That must come first.

My noble friend’s amendment adds improving this base to the list of have-regards, so that it is explicitly clear that this is a desirable function of research councils. We need this additional requirement, or something very much like it, to avoid distorting the priorities of research councils and to make clear, in the Bill, what their primary purpose is.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

This will probably be the shortest speech I have made, or ever will make, in the House of Lords. I have a registered interest as a fellow of the Academy of Social Sciences and would like to reinforce what the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, has indicated this afternoon. Given that the Minister is respected as someone who does not just listen and reflect but is actually prepared to give and to come back with solutions, I hope we will be able to reflect on the importance of avoiding doubt and—as the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, has said—misunderstandings simply by getting the wording right and reassuring people that we are approaching this with a comprehensive view for the well-being of our university research community and for the future well-being of the country.

[The Earl of Selborne]

My Lords, for slightly different reasons, I also support the concept that social sciences should be in the Bill. One of the purposes of the formation of UKRI is to address the need to promote interdisciplinary research. So many of the exciting areas of science are interdisciplinary, but it has to be admitted that research councils have not always successfully collaborated, certainly not with other parts of the research portfolio. We have talked about the great contribution that charities, the departments and independent research institutes make, and one of the jobs of UKRI will be to have real knowledge about how all these can contribute together. One thing that is absolutely certain is that social sciences are the key to interdisciplinary research. It is almost impossible to think of a research programme that does not have some social science implication, so it would be enormously helpful just to remind us that when we are talking about interdisciplinary research, we should see social sciences as key to that.

I also very much agree with Amendment 494 in this group, for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, touched on earlier, regarding how UKRI should be charged with responsibility for social inclusion and community cohesion. If it was just about economic benefit, we might as well continue to have the golden triangle and all that flows from that, and the lack of community cohesion. This is a game where UKRI, taking as it does an overall view, can make a real contribution to ensuring that the areas which are suffering at the moment from a lack of investment and poor productivity benefit from innovation.

At the risk of repeating what I said at Second Reading, although we congratulate ourselves, quite rightly, time and again on the quality of our science base, it does not necessarily work through in terms of productivity, which is below the EU average: 50% of United Kingdom cities are in the bottom 25% of European cities in terms of productivity. That is a goal on which we should always concentrate our minds. Innovation and the science base are both key to getting this right—this is about the long term—but the formation of UKRI, bringing together as it does the research councils and Innovate UK, must be seen to have these wider objectives.