Corporate Insolvency and Governance Bill

Lord Fox Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 23rd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, we have heard a number of your Lordships speak with great authority, not least the previous speaker, on this important subject. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, set out, there is a great number of amendments in this group, and I shall not attempt to speak to all of them. I have sympathy with the spirit of the amendments set out by the noble Lord, Lord Leigh. Like the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, I shall listen to the Minister’s response to those questions.

I also thank the Minister and the departmental team for listening to what was said in Committee and coming up with the first of a set of government amendments that were sensitive to that debate. However, I shall speak to two amendments in this group that carry my name, Amendments 14 and 75. Amendment 14 has been elegantly spoken to by my noble friends Lady Bowles, Lady Kramer and Lord Palmer and, on the Bench opposite, by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, and others. It sets out the overriding issue in this debate: that of tiptoeing around the financial institutions.

My noble friend Lady Bowles set it out with great clarity: where all other groups within the company in a moratorium have to set aside and go into stasis, the banks do not. Even though it may be implied, it is important that the Bill is very clear that we expect a standstill. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, said that the Minister may yet star in legal disputes of the Pepper v Hart variety. One way for him to avoid such notoriety would be to accept Amendment 14 and accept that we need a clear undertaking that this behaviour cannot be allowed. As my noble friend Lady Kramer and the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, set out, if it can happen, it will happen. Teams within banks will be under an obligation to their owners to do it. Therefore, it needs to be set aside.

A number of Peers talked about banks gaming the situation, but this is no game for employees or for creditors. If it were a game, the pawns could well be the employees. That is why Amendment 75, which also carries my name, is important—albeit modest, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bryan, said.

The noble Lord, Lord Hendy, set out in legal terms why some status for employees needs to be established; nothing else in the Bill does that. However, it should be more than workers just being in receipt of communication; they should have a seat at the table and be consulted. Somewhere there is a feeling coming through this that involving the employees is somehow anathema to saving the business. I should declare my interests, one of which is that I am a member of the German-British Forum. In Germany, this discussion would not be needed. Businesses in Germany know that workers have a central role in their strategic future —and what could be more strategic than the sort of things that we are discussing today? So Amendment 75 is a very modest suggestion, and any watering down of it by the Government would be disappointing.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, this has been a very good debate and I thank all those who have contributed. In a sense, the debate around this group of amendments reflects the problem that we have had with the Bill. The Government, rightly, want to progress and to press ahead, but the issues that we are covering are of such substance that they vastly outstrip the time that has been made available for us to do it—hence our needing the Minister to address at the Dispatch Box a wide range of points before many of us can decide how we will deal with our amendments.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, asked about the exchange of letters over the simple question about whether a list of creditors should be provided. The noble Lord, Lord Leigh, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, asked a justifiable question about whether rescuing a business is the same as rescuing the company, given that in many cases the business is the important issue, particularly when it is linked to the jobs that would be involved. Does the Bill adequately deal with that?

My noble friends Lady Drake and Lady Warwick want to know from the Minister directly at the Dispatch Box whether Amendment 80 goes far enough to recognise the gaming and perverse behaviours that will inevitably follow the moratorium arrangements. In addition to that, my noble friend Lady Warwick specifically asked about the issue of super-priority for financial funds in relation to defined-benefit pensions. Will the Government, with their power, stay alert to the dangers? We need to know.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, made a persuasive case about the way in which the breathing space set up by the moratorium would effectively be destroyed by accelerated payments, and the following speaker, the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, made that point exactly by explaining why gaming is natural, or even appropriate, behaviour for banks and other lenders, which of course have to maximise the return they are likely to get. If that is inevitable, are the measures in the Bill sufficient? Will the Minister do what he can to reassure us about that? And the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, whose extensive experience and anecdotes flowed through his speech, rightly raised the Pepper v Hart concern and the issues that will come through in future legislation in relation to what has been said today.

I suppose what I am getting at is that it would have been better if we had had proper amendments and time to debate them in individual groups—not all clumped together in different areas—and did not have to rely on the Minister’s very difficult task of covering all the points raised in today’s hour and a quarter of debate and being convincing about how the words that appear in the Bill, and in the Act when it is published, will be sufficient. However, we are where we are and we need to make progress.

Amendment 75 may be a rather modest issue, as has been said, but it is important in itself as well as for what it might say about the future. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kerslake and Lord Fox, and the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, for supporting me in this amendment, and I thank my noble friends Lady Bryan of Partick, Lord Hendy, Lord Hain, Lord Adonis and others for speaking in support. At heart, the amendment seeks to recognise that workers in a company care about its future and, like all other stakeholders, should be informed about what is going on. It supports the view that in a crisis situation all those who work in a company are in it together, and employees may have as much at stake as others who have a financial stake in the company. It also makes the point that those who work in the company in the round, or in the business that the company is carrying out, can and should make a contribution to save it if it is in crisis. Only good can come from a proper process of engagement, information exchange and an exchange of ideas.

I recognise that in a moratorium situation speed may be of the essence. Any arrangements set up that would slow that down also carry the risk that information will be fed out into the public, and that may promote creditor action. We must guard against that but, on the other hand, we should also aim to bring everyone together, not to split off certain groups who, as I hope to argue, could contribute. However, and I wait to hear the Minister deal with this issue when he comes to the Dispatch Box, there may be other ways of dealing with this—measures that could perhaps take into account evidence gained as we go forward. As we discovered in Committee, there may indeed be other issues that need to be wrapped into this first step—the beginnings, perhaps, of a movement to rebalance the relationship between employers and employees and to promote collective bargaining. This may not have been the right amendment or even the right Bill for that approach, but maybe this can be the first step on that journey.

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[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Henig) (Lab)]

I have received a request to ask a short question for elucidation from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, so I call on him to ask it.

[Lord Fox]

In reference to Amendment 75, the Minister talked about the danger of employees leaking the state of the business. In my experience of acquisitions and disposals in continental Europe, where the pre-briefing of employees is legally required, there has never been an issue with employees leaking the information. The leaks have only ever come from advisers, usually banks. What grounds does the Minister have for making that statement?

[Lord Callanan]

I do not think that I used the word “leaking”. We want the moratorium to be a light-touch procedure with the minimum level of bureaucracy. Of course, it goes without saying that any information being disclosed from whatever source of a company’s intention to go into this procedure could have serious adverse consequences if certain creditors seek to pre-empt the operation of the moratorium. However, we have built concessions into this part of the Bill. I hope noble Lords will be able to accept them. I take on board the noble Lord’s points, although I did not use those words.

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[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Deputy Leader for his many amendments, designed to moderate the overuse of delegated powers in this important legislation. The legislation is vital to easing the burden of events on businesses, especially smaller or less well-capitalised businesses, of which sadly there are more every day.

I was particularly concerned about the lack of an end date for the use of the emergency powers, but government Amendment 49 appears to meet my concern. I also thank my noble friend Lady Fookes, the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and others for their effective scrutiny.

[Lord Fox]

My Lords, this will be something of a novelty but I am going to be gracious. As is appropriate, I congratulate the Government on bringing forth Amendment 49, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and on sweeping away as many as possible of the Henry VIII clauses, as they are known. My noble friend Lady Barker set out the challenge for this Bill and the reasons for retaining some powers to change and mutate it as it goes forward. Because of the haste and scale of the Bill, there is a great challenge from non-conventional businesses, so to speak.

The point about museums is a very good example of where it is a question not just of the future of the museum but the future integrity of a collection, which suddenly becomes an asset. While it may not be possible to save a museum, it should be possible to save a collection—but, when very many collections are going up for sale at the same time, clearly the capacity to deal with that is eliminated; that is just one very niche example of the challenge for the Government. In this set of amendments, the Government have shown an ear to the debate and have reacted accordingly.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara [V]]

My Lords, as has already been said, this has been a good debate. While we must await the individual amendments, I think the judgment of the House so far is that the Government have changed their original proposals sufficiently to satisfy the House and, more importantly, the specialist committees that have been looking at particular details; we picked up from my noble friend Lady Taylor the considerable concerns that were around at the time.

The noble Earl, who is also the Deputy Leader of the House, might wish to swap hats when he comes to respond to the debate, as there are perhaps points that need to be taken back and listened to within the usual channels in relation to the dangers of fast-tracking complex legislation of this nature and the need to make sure that we have sufficient time and learn the lessons, as my noble friend Lady Taylor said. It is not something that we often hear in this House, but we do need to listen: this whole process of fast-tracking and then trying to pick up on the run the difficulties that come up and is really not an adequate way of scrutinising, as she put it. We hope that that lesson will be learned in a way that will allow us more time and more consideration.

Finally, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay of St Johns, for picking up the point that we both shared in Committee in relation to charities. Like her, I am pleased that the point has been noted and a response issued. I still think that there are concerns around some of the other bodies with which we as a Parliament and as a society should be concerned: the good work of credit unions, friendly societies, social enterprise companies, community-interest companies and co-ops. These, of course, share the common thread that they are often set up outside the norms of company law, for the reason that they can operate better when they are not part of the overall character of the Companies Act. But, inevitably, there are intersection points and issues, which have been picked up. The point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, that certain independent companies trading as museums might find that the collections on which they depend may be at risk is obviously a worry that the Government will want to take back. I think those are the important points.

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[Lord Blunkett (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it had been my intention to speak on the final day of Committee but, because of an administrative blip, my name went in at entirely the wrong time.

I am pleased that the Government have been prepared to move on this area, as they have on other parts of this complex and detailed Bill. Like my noble friend Lord Hain, I was the Pensions Minister for a time, at the time when the Pension Protection Fund was being brought into full operation. It built on the incredible work—unsung and unknown to many people—of my good friend Andrew Smith, the previous Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, was a lobbyist at the time. I remember the withering nature of her commentary on what we were doing. I cannot ever remember the noble Baroness giving us credit for anything, but now she probably thinks that, 15 years ago, we were doing the right thing. This is why I take seriously what she has said in relation to contingent assets and their likely disposal.

Consequent to what my noble friend Lady Drake said about the Pension Schemes Bill, can the Minister say whether, with regard to the legislation that is being brought forward by the Government to protect our crucial national infrastructure from the sale of assets which would otherwise be detrimental to our economy and to the supply chain, which has arisen from the experience of the last four months, there can be an interrelationship between the different pieces of legislation? That is so that we can be clear not only about the rules that are being applied and the power that would exist for the Pension Protection Fund if this amendment is passed but about how we can ensure that one piece of legislation relates directly to and integrates with another piece of the Government’s policy. If we can get them to act together, some of the fears that have been raised can be allayed.

[Lord Fox]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this important debate. I am a signatory to Amendment 15 and I thank my noble friend Lady Bowles, the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for co-signing it. I join other Peers in acknowledging that the Government have moved in terms of listening to the previous debate and going forward, but the issue that Amendment 15 seeks to address is a serious one. If this Bill went through without the sorts of assurances that we are looking for from the Minister, or remained unamended, that would create a huge issue for pension trustees all over the country. Never mind the ones that are going into insolvency—as the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, set out so eloquently, every single pension trustee would revisit every single pledged asset and would go back to the management of their sponsoring companies to ask for cash instead. I do not need to remind the Minister that cash flow is one of the biggest challenges facing businesses at the moment; it is actually cash that is the problem. To knowingly put in a measure that will drain profitable businesses of cash would be careless, and I do not think that that is what the Government are doing. I think this is an unknowing consequence of the Bill.

To be clear, this concerns assets that have already been pledged. When the Minister spoke earlier, he seemed to be referring to assets being pledged at the time of insolvency, but these are assets which have been pledged in lieu of cash. Given that, I am a little bemused by the idea put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, that the Pension Protection Fund would somehow be overreaching itself in seeking to protect these funds for pensioners and that it would be giving the PPF too much power. Rather, it is merely the power to protect assets that have been signed over to the pension fund. If they were not assets such as those set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann—real estate and securities—then it would be money. I do not think that the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, is proposing that the courts should have the power to extract money from pension funds, so why should they not have the power to protect against judges extracting assets that have been put aside in lieu of money?

The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, put a clear question to the Minister, one that I think is very apposite to this point. Does the PPF have the power to prevent judges extracting pledged assets from pension funds and putting them into the pool of assets for distribution to other creditors? If the Minister is able to stand up and say that clearly and unambiguously—for those Members watching remotely, it does not look like he is—there is no problem. However, if the Bill leaves this House unamended or without that pledge, this issue will become a very serious one not just for the pension funds of distressed companies but for every defined benefit pension fund in the country.

[Lord Lennie (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, straight off the bat, I too welcome the Government’s movement on this specific part of this necessary Bill. There will be a sense of relief for direct benefit pension funds and their trustees, the Pension Protection Fund and the regulator. As has been said, all will now have rights of access to information about the intentions of companies and to voice their opinions about the decisions that are being contemplated; a seat at the table, access to court and so forth. This will be true throughout the UK.

When a company seeks a moratorium or when it considers other actions in a potential redundancy and insolvency circumstance, the monitor will be required to notify the pension scheme, the PPF and the regulator to have due consideration of their views about the proposed action. In the event that a moratorium comes to an end or if the monitor changes, the pension scheme trustees and the PPF must be informed. This will mean in effect that the debts owing to a direct benefit pension scheme do not rank below other finance debts. That would recognise the real status of a pension as deferred earnings and should not allow others to accelerate the debt position at the expense of pension provision, as was feared in the original text. These changes have come about due to the strength of the arguments put by my noble friends Lady Drake and Lady Warwick, the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, on the Liberal Democrat Benches, and the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, on the Conservative side. I congratulate them on achieving this much.

However, can the Minister provide the reassurance being sought about the value of direct benefit schemes being put at risk by the sale of assets, and ultimately the whole working of the PPF? Will he closely monitor and consult on any necessary remedial actions that may arise from his examination of this issue? The Minister can take the credit due to him for his part in bringing forward these amendments to the Bill, and they are welcome. But can he confirm that the Government will stay alert and ready to intervene on behalf of pensions and the PPF in the event that the measures in this legislation do not go far enough in protecting them?

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Moved by

[Lord Fox]

15: Clause 1, page 19, line 7, at end insert—
“( ) However, the court may not give permission for the disposal of any property or asset under subsection (1) which has been pledged to the company’s defined benefit pension scheme unless the Pension Protection Fund has given prior permission for its disposal.”

[Lord Fox]

My Lords, we heard what the Minister had to say, and I and others have already spoken at length on this amendment. The principle is that a deal is a deal: the pensioners were granted those assets and the idea that that can retrospectively be prised from the deferred salaries and wages of workers is such that I do not think the Bill should leave this House without it being tested. I therefore wish to test the will of the House.

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[Lord Fox]

My Lords, very briefly, it seems that the solution of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, is very elegant, and, like the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, I am struggling to find out why the Government might not accept it. One of the things that has come up on a number of occasions is the need for speed for both the Bill and decision-making: “We do not have time to talk to the workers”; “We do not have time to do this.” This is an opportunity to take one moment out and review whether this move—a pre-pack—is in the best interests of all concerned. I cannot see why the Government would not support it, and I expect that the Minister will stand up and wholeheartedly embrace Amendment 45 shortly.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted [V]]

My Lords, I supported the pre-pack amendments in Committee and have done so again. The reason for the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, is simple: reference to the pool is not happening, and bad pre-packs are. Like others, I do not consider all pre-packs to be bad, but it is unquestionable that some bad deals are going on.

The Government are reinstating a provision to give themselves powers that have recently lapsed. I do not wish to prevent that but, as the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, said, that power has already lain for too long—for five years—without regulations being forthcoming. Due to coronavirus, more deals and insolvencies are likely, and there will be horrid cases, as the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, said. The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, also reminded us again of the storm that is about to come—or the “tsunami”, as my noble friend Lord Palmer said. Every day we already hear of more, and some are a rip-off of creditors, as the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, said in Committee and as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, reminded us. The evidence is that insolvency practitioners can easily tick boxes to cover themselves. It is happening.

This amendment is simple and complete: use the panel that has been set up. In Committee the Minister was critical of the fact that the panel is set up in a light-touch way rather than having a regulatory power, but it is like that because government wanted it that way. If the Government want to come forward with powers for ARGA to take over the job—and to make ARGA happy—I will be there in support. But that is not here now, and nor are other regulations. So let us not hurt the public still further by having the recovery from Covid littered with scandals of cosy and inappropriate pre-packs. This is another feature of how the unfairness built into the moratorium will work, with pressure for restructuring, where the big winners will be the financiers. The least we can do is to have some assurance that the deal meets the standard of reasonableness.