Corporate Insolvency and Governance Bill

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 23rd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond [V]]

I am pleased to speak in support of Amendment 48 from my noble friend Lady Fookes. As ever, she makes a point that is pertinent and clear, and that is absolutely required at this stage. In doing so, I also congratulate my noble friend Lord Blencathra and the members of the Delegated Powers Committee on all their work in this area. As other noble Lords have said, the Government are in listening mode on this. That can be only a good thing, and it is largely down to the persuasive power of my noble friend.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Deputy Leader for his many amendments, designed to moderate the overuse of delegated powers in this important legislation. The legislation is vital to easing the burden of events on businesses, especially smaller or less well-capitalised businesses, of which sadly there are more every day.

I was particularly concerned about the lack of an end date for the use of the emergency powers, but government Amendment 49 appears to meet my concern. I also thank my noble friend Lady Fookes, the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and others for their effective scrutiny.

[Lord Fox]

My Lords, this will be something of a novelty but I am going to be gracious. As is appropriate, I congratulate the Government on bringing forth Amendment 49, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and on sweeping away as many as possible of the Henry VIII clauses, as they are known. My noble friend Lady Barker set out the challenge for this Bill and the reasons for retaining some powers to change and mutate it as it goes forward. Because of the haste and scale of the Bill, there is a great challenge from non-conventional businesses, so to speak.

The point about museums is a very good example of where it is a question not just of the future of the museum but the future integrity of a collection, which suddenly becomes an asset. While it may not be possible to save a museum, it should be possible to save a collection—but, when very many collections are going up for sale at the same time, clearly the capacity to deal with that is eliminated; that is just one very niche example of the challenge for the Government. In this set of amendments, the Government have shown an ear to the debate and have reacted accordingly.

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[Lord Hain [V]]

My Lords, I was very happy to add my name to Amendment 15, which has been spoken to so eloquently and with unrivalled expertise and authority on this matter by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann. I am very concerned about the threat to the Pension Protection Fund. I am proud to say that it started life under the last Labour Government in 2005, and I was subsequently Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. It is an important lifeboat, but it could be threatened if the consequences of insolvency, particularly with defined benefits, rebound into the PPF.

Although I welcome the concessions and responses that the Minister has made through these amendments, and what he has said as a result of the arguments put by the noble Baronesses, Lady Altmann and Lady Bowles, and others, including my noble friends Lady Drake and Lady Warwick, I still think there is a real risk involved. I hope that today, he will give greater recognition to that fact and that he and the Secretary of State will be vigilant in ensuring that the Government are fully cognisant of their concerns about the future viability of the vital Pension Protection Fund.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe [V]]

My Lords, I come to this from a slightly different point of view, and I rise to express some concern at the scale of amendments on pensions in this already finely balanced Bill. They may make life difficult for investors, creditors and the forces of enterprise that we need if our economy is ever going to recover from the dreadful coronavirus crisis. While understanding and accepting the government amendments and agreeing on the need for vigilance— in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Hain—I urge the Minister to go no further and not to accept Amendment 15. It gives too much power to the Pension Protection Fund and could have the perverse consequences of delay, burden and cost to pension funds and to businesses that are in trouble but have a sustainable future.

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[Baroness Altmann [V]]

My Lords, I will be brief. I very much support the wise words of my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. I welcome Amendments 37 and 38, and I cannot quite understand the reluctance of the Government to agree to this amendment; I know that there has been significant discussion on it.

Clearly, any pre-pack can have positive effects, but the transparency and oversight issues, particularly in the current emergency environment, surely require some modicum of independent oversight. We have the pool ready to go and are in a position where we could anticipate problems, rather than trying to deal with them after they have arisen, when it is too late for the small creditors that could be so damaged by the egregious practices that we in this House have all heard about, and many noble Lords have previously explained.

I hope that my noble friend can give sufficient reassurances to the House on this issue. However, I will support Amendment 45, should that not be possible.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister very warmly for accepting the amendment on pre-packs that I put down in Committee, on which I had the help of the British Property Federation. The amendment was designed to restore the power in the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act. Amendments 37 and 38 have been drafted by parliamentary counsel and use a much more elegant formula to amend the original Insolvency Act, but to the same effect and with the same deadline of June 2021. I would like an assurance from my noble friend the Minister that that power will be used and that it will be able to deal with some of the pre-pack issues.

I would like to thank my noble friend Lord Hodgson, who has demonstrated his admirable virtuosity—he is not merely an expert on pubs and demography, as the House knows, but on insolvency, as well as many other things. I also support the thrust of his amendment. I should add that, without his oratory and argument last week, we would not have made the progress that we have.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill [V]]

My Lords, I support wholeheartedly the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson. It seems sensible, and I hope that the Government will accept it. Having heard a previous speaker do so, I must declare my interest as a chartered accountant.

Many speakers in today’s debate have drawn a difference between selling or transferring a business and selling a company. The idea of a pool was meant to be a sort of bridge between the two, so that the business can survive—but there is of course a danger that it can be taken advantage of. When Vince Cable set out this principle, on the advice of Teresa Graham, it was to set up a pool. It might perhaps be useful to read into the debate the members of the oversight group, which comprises representatives of the founding parties of the pool: R3, the Association of Business Recovery Professionals; the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants; the British Property Federation; the British Printing Industries Federation; the Chartered Accountants Regulatory Board; the Chartered Institute of Credit Management; and the Institute of Chartered Accountants. It is a long, long list.

To ask that one member of the pre-pack pool should say that the transaction is not unreasonable seems a sensible move to deal with what we believe will be a tsunami of liquidations and business problems, and it shows another way of skinning the cat rather than just using a monitor or going straight into liquidation. So I heartily support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson.