Financial Services Bill

Lord Barnett Excerpts

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

Indeed. I should say that it is subject to what is laid down in statute about the Monetary Policy Committee and the Financial Policy Committee and so on. If they are decisions of the Monetary Policy Committee, then they are the decisions of the Monetary Policy Committee. If they are the decisions of the Bank, the court will decide how they are taken. As for the question from my noble friend Lord Flight, of course it will be the PRA staff who will supervise and lead on the direct relationships with the banks or insurance companies, for example, that are being supervised. Technically, the PRA staff will be seconded from the Bank. There will be a close working relationship, which is part of the benefit of bringing it all together under the one umbrella.

[Lord Barnett]

I hope I did not misunderstand, but the Minister seemed to say that all decisions of the Bank are made by the court. Does that mean that when the Governor of the Bank of England makes a policy decision, it is not his decision, but a decision of the court?

[Lord Sassoon]

No, my Lords, that is not what I said. I said that the court is the governing body of the Bank. So unless specified in some other way, it is ultimately the decision of the court as to whether it takes a decision or delegates it. When it comes to policy decisions of the sort that the noble Lord is describing, they are of course delegated ones. All we are trying to do in this amendment is make it clear what decisions should be taken by the court and only by the court.

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Moved by

[Lord Barnett]

10: Clause 4, page 7, line 7, leave out “subject to that” and insert “with equal weight”

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, the amendment relates to something originally in the Bank of England Act 1998 which should not have been there in the first place. My noble friend Lord Peston and I tried very hard for it not to be put in but failed at the time. I hope that we will be more successful today.

The words “subject to that” should never have been there in the first place. All they mean is that the Governor of the Bank of England—and we will have a new one next July—will have his hands tied fast. He must first get stability—that is, control inflation—and only then can he look at the Government’s economic policy. Frankly, I would prefer that he looked at someone else’s economic policy than that of the present Government because I am not very happy with it. However, that is how it should be: the governor should look at the Government’s economic policy—and given what we heard in the Autumn Statement, someone else certainly needs to look at the situation and at this Government’s economic policy.

The new governor may be as good as everyone says—I hope he is—but I think what he can do with the economy has been massively overstated because that is primarily the responsibility of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Sadly, the present Chancellor—whose first line in the Autumn Statement should have been an apology—has said everything is marvellous. It is hard to believe that anyone could do that, but the Chancellor did it.

It would help if the new governor had at least a responsibility to look at the economy to see whether he can help the Chancellor. It would be helpful to the Government to have the words deleted and that is all I am seeking to do. I shall not take up any more of the House’s time. I beg to move.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I wish to add two or three remarks to what my noble friend Lord Barnett has said.

On any logical grounds, “equal weight” is precisely what the Government would want to see in this part of the Bill. One feels that somehow the computer got jammed and “subject to that” got stuck in all over the place for no good reason. I would be surprised if the Minister is not sympathetic to the amendment.

I wish to make two remarks in regard to the prospective governor. First, I know that he felt it was right for him to appear before the Treasury Select Committee in the other place in order that its members should know who he was. Bearing in mind the vast amount of work that noble Lords have put in to this Bill, which is devoted overwhelmingly to the Bank of England, and given that, with much regret, we will be dealing some day with a Bill about the Bank of England without the Minister being the lead figure, I would like to go on record as saying that it would be a good idea if the prospective Governor of the Bank of England appeared before your Lordships’ Economic Affairs Committee so that he could become known to us as well as to the other place.

My second remark is in favour of the prospective governor. Eyebrows have been raised that he is being paid approximately £600,000 for this job, which is a lot of money—certainly to an impoverished ex-professor. None the less, given that the prospective governor could earn between £10 million and £15 million per annum—most of which, I would guess, would end up being tax-free—someone ought to reassure him that, if anything, we are getting a bargain and he is doing us a favour rather than us doing him a favour by appointing him.

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[Lord Barnett]

I am never surprised by the noble Lord and I am certainly not surprised today. I think I heard him say that the model produced by my noble friend Lord Peston and me—we do not normally produce models, but I am very happy to do so on this occasion—would prejudice the Government’s policy. I do not know what policy of the Government needs prejudicing. At the moment, everything is going well, according to the Chancellor, and instead of apologising, as he should have done, in the first line of his Statement he said that everything is healing. Now we are told that we should give the brilliant new governor an opportunity to comment to the Chancellor on the economy—he certainly needs someone to tell him something about his policy.

How can the Minister say that the FPC would prejudice financial stability because it might go for economic growth? I have heard some arguments against what my noble friend and I have suggested for a long time, but to suggest that that is the answer that the Treasury is using is quite incredible. I wish I had heard him differently. I am very sorry indeed that that was his reply, and I simply do not accept it.

Amendment 10 withdrawn.

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[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I start by congratulating my noble friend Lord Mitchell and the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, on a very great achievement. However, as everybody seems to understand the amendment in every way except for me, I have three questions in case I have misunderstood what the noble Lord said.

I read the amendment as saying that it gives the FCA the power to do all the things that we want it to do. However, I was not very clear whether he was then saying that, under its consumer protection mandate, it follows immediately that it must exercise that power. This is our favourite “may” and “must” question. You can give someone power but they may not use it. However, am I right in understanding that this amendment, coupled with the whole of the rest of the remit for the FCA, essentially means that it will now have to go into this field and deal with it in the way suggested, or is it still up to it whether it bothers with it? I would like the answer to that question.

The second question we had—if we recall our little debate on this last week—was on the concept of transparency. The great reason why this is a racket is of course that the average consumer/borrower who is not an expert in this field does not know until he has signed up what he is signing up for. Am I right in assuming that this amendment will make sure that the one thing that would happen as a result of this—do not let us worry for the moment about bankruptcy and all that for these firms—is that consumers will definitely know what they are letting themselves in for? Certainly my attempt to look up at least one site on this showed that you do not get to what you are letting yourself in for until you are virtually locked in. Am I right that this amendment is both transparent in general and also transparent with regard to what you have let yourself in for?

I do not say this in a negative way in terms of saying we do not want this; this is a tremendous achievement. I am looking for a bit of enlightenment to make sure that I understand what it means.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, perhaps I may add to what my noble friend Lord Peston has said. I will not repeat the may/must argument; it has been well enough made, and I hope that we will get a reply from the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon. Incidentally, in congratulating my noble friend Lord Mitchell, perhaps it is right that I should also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon. This may be our last exchange before he retires.

The noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, mentioned the assumption that the FCA will now have the powers to deal with these unscrupulous people regarding payday loan schemes. As my noble friend Lord Mitchell said, they will have lots of good lawyers because when people have many profits to defend, as they do, they tend to use lots of lawyers. While I am not a lawyer, I hope that the noble Lord’s lawyers have indeed drafted this correctly. I know that these things can never be done tightly enough and that once lawyers get involved it finishes up in the courts for somebody else to decide. That is bound to happen and I am not blaming the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, or his legal advisers for it. In my experience, when court actions involve lawyers on two sides in major cases, both advise their clients that they are right and that they should go to court about it. That becomes very expensive and they eventually resolve it only in the court.

As the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, said, although he is confident about this provision, it is nevertheless not a silver bullet. Does he think that the advice he has been given will result over the next few months or weeks in the lawyers worrying about it? At the end of the day, will we require secondary legislation to deal with this? I hope not—I hope that the lawyers have it absolutely right this time. However, as the noble Lord said, one of the worries is the law of unintended consequences.

This is such a complex area but I like the point that my noble friend Lord Mitchell made about what happens in, I think, Canada.

[Lord Mitchell]

It was Florida.

[Lord Barnett]

In Florida, they have to register this. If it was in Canada, the new Governor of the Bank of England would have a still better idea. It may be that he still does because he seems a very bright fellow and he will know what happens in Florida. Perhaps, some time in the not too distant future, we will have something like what my noble friend Lord Mitchell quoted because that seems to me, as a non-lawyer, to be a sensible way forward. I hope that we can move that way in future. For now, it only remains for me, too, to congratulate all concerned in this matter and wish the new amendment well in the future.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, the Government and others in the House on passing this Act because in terms of consumer protection in Acts, the wheels turn very slowly. The Consumer Credit Act 1974 was only superseded because of a lot of effort by quite a number of us in the other place in getting another Consumer Credit Act in 2006, 32 years later. At a time when we have the internet and technology has increased enormously, that means that the imbalance between the consumer and the industry gets even steeper, so I welcome this amendment today and the efforts that have been put into it.

In particular, I congratulate the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, as he departs the Front Bench. He deserves our hearty congratulations because for years we have listened to the plea, “Let the market work”. What happens when we let the market work, to be euphemistic, is that innovation takes over and innovation, as the Minister says, equates to sharp practices. Once we pass this in the House today, it will be going out into the cold light of day and I can tell everyone in the House that innovation will take place and we therefore have to be on our guard.

This is but a first step but it is a huge first step. In line with the comments made by other Peers, I ask the Minister for clarification on these points. First, will the new clause cover all costs and charges levied by payday lenders or borrowers? Secondly, when will it come into force? A number of us are worried that we could be waiting for a long time before it is brought in and that, in the interim, the sharp practices will continue. Lastly, how do the Government envisage the cap being set and does the Minister have in mind at what level he expects that cap to be set? It is important to give some direction to the FCA in today’s debate. My last word to the Minister is to offer my congratulations as a new life beckons in front of him, which I hope is just as prosperous.

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[Lord Eatwell]

My Lords, I rise not with respect to the amendment but to reflect on the latter comments of the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon. As he said, the Bill began its somewhat laborious journey with its First Reading back in May. The process has been extraordinarily laborious considering that it was a politically non-contentious Bill. We should perhaps learn some lessons from this. The main lesson is that, if there is pre-legislative scrutiny, a valuable process that we introduced, more notice should be taken of the conclusions of that scrutiny than is evident in the Bill before us. I refer particularly to the advice from the Treasury Select Committee that a new Bill be drafted rather than that we rely on the complex structure of amendments to prior legislation that we have had to wade through over the past several months.

Given the weighty nature of the work that we have had to deal with, it is appropriate to thank those who have been involved with the Bill. I add my thanks to those of the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, to my noble friends Lady Hayter, Lord Davies, Lord Stevenson and Lord Tunnicliffe. I also thank Mr Whiting and the Bill team, who have been helpful and courteous throughout, and the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, for dealing with often complex matters and, occasionally, defending the indefensible with his usual good humour. Finally, in thanking individuals, I must thank Miss Jessica Levy, our talented and all-knowing researcher.

Effective regulation at the macro and micro level of systemic risks and the risks associated with individual firms is in the interests of households and industry and is essential for the success of the UK financial services industry. Therefore, we on this side wish this Bill well. I hope that the measures over which we have laboured will prove a success.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, I cannot let the Bill pass without saying a few words. I described the Bill as “shambolic” and was told by an old friend—a normally good friend who happens to be a former Conservative Cabinet Minister—that he was surprised that I was so political in using that unusual expression. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, and the House. I could not think of a better word to describe what was in the Bill and what had happened.

My main concern with the Bill is the very principle of giving such huge powers to the Bank of England—and they remain. It is the principle that worries me. We have given huge powers to the Bank of England. We have added to the Bank of England Act, as I mentioned earlier today. We have given the Bank powers over the OFT, FCA, FSA and PRA, and over changes in FiSMA—so many different initials that one forgets precisely what we did do. We amended a lot because there was a lot to amend, because unfortunately these days, under both Governments, the House of Commons guillotines so much that very little gets done properly. Legislation comes to this House for amendment and we amend it well, I am happy to say, as we did on this occasion.

My worry is that we started off with an unusually large Bill: two volumes of clauses and schedules. It was so big and it has become even bigger because we put in provisions dealing with the LIBOR scandal. This should have been a Bill on its own. We on this side of the House rightly agreed with the changes resulting from the Government’s acceptance of the Wheatley report. These provisions dealt with it properly and the Opposition accepted them, but they did not just come forward in a Bill; they came forward scattered in amendments throughout the Bill. I hope that it deals with the LIBOR scandal but it is difficult to tell if it really did, because on top of all this we are now told that there will be secondary legislation as well. I regret to say that we do not understand what we have passed here, because we still do not know what is going to happen.

I hope that we have done the right thing and that everything is going to work out, but the plain fact is that, with the LIBOR scandal, there were some in the Bank of England, the FSA and many other bodies whose main concern was primarily with interest rates. They knew nothing whatever about what the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon—I nearly said “my noble friend Lord Sassoon”; I feel he is that—was talking about. He described this LIBOR scandal as a global one, affecting some $300 trillion. It affected all that, but nobody in the Bank of England or the FSA or anybody else knew the slightest thing that was going on in the LIBOR scandal. Therefore, I would like to finish by asking the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, a question.

[Noble Lords]

He has sat down.

[Lord Barnett]

I understand that I must not do that, so I will mention the question that I would have asked him. There are going to be investigations into the LIBOR scandal. Will they include looking in detail at whether there is anybody else liable or culpable in this regard? It clearly is a scandal of its own to say that nobody knew anything about it. I will leave it at that. I hope that the Government will produce sensible secondary legislation in the way we hope when we pass this Bill.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I will make a brief personal remark to the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, who I believe is about to retire as a Minister after the passage of the Bill. My words are those that David Ricardo wrote to Thomas Malthus in the very last letter he wrote to him:

“And now, my dear Malthus, I have done. Like other disputants, after much discussion we each retain our own opinions. These discussions, however, never influence our friendship; I should not like you more than I do if you agreed in opinion with me”.

I hope that he will accept that message.

Banks: Funding for Lending Scheme

Lord Barnett Excerpts

Tuesday 4th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, one of the core principles and purposes behind the scheme is to increase lending to small and medium-sized businesses. We are confident that as the scheme gathers pace, it will be clearer that it has been effective. On figures on lending to small and medium-sized businesses, the Bank already publishes the quarterly Trends in Lending report, which covers SME lending. The most recent report was published in October. This report gives a very good time series about what is happening to lending to SMEs, and we are not convinced that having a second, broadly equivalent, series produced on a slightly different date would help to explain what is happening any more clearly than is already the case.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, the press to some extent has supported the Minister. The Financial Times said:

“The government’s flagship scheme to encourage banks to lend more to businesses and consumers is showing some signs of working—for banks, at least, if not yet for their customers”.

That is what most of the press have been saying: the banks have been taking the money and not lending it. If, in the process, the Bank of England loses money on the swaps it is doing on mortgages, will those losses be transferred to the Treasury in the same way as its profits were?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I think that the noble Lord is missing the fact that, over the period, the banks that are signed up to this scheme have made an additional £500,000 of loans to businesses and individuals. This is exactly what the scheme was intended to do. All the evidence is that the participating banks intend to use it to a greater extent in the future than they have up to now—it is very early days—and therefore I am sure that the question that the noble Lord has in his mind will not arise.

Financial Services Bill

Lord Barnett Excerpts

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, this group of amendments concerns Part 5, which is concerned with inquiries and investigations. It carries forward provisions relating to independent inquiries called by the Treasury and applies these powers to both the PRA and the FCA, also introducing a number of new provisions for the regulators to carry out investigations when regulatory failure has occurred, or may have occurred. As such, Part 5 is a very important part of the Bill, as indeed my noble friend Lady Noakes noted when she described the provisions in it as “crucial to the Bill” when we last discussed these matters on 25 October. During our discussions on that day, I indicated that I would go away and consider carefully the important points made by my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. I also promised to reflect further on a topic on which we have spent many a happy hour—namely, the uses of “may” and “must” in the Bill.

I hope that noble Lords will be pleased to note that the Government are bringing forward a number of amendments informed by our previous discussion of Part 5. Amendments 107B and 107C amend Clause 76, which provides the Treasury with a power to require either regulator to carry out an investigation when the Treasury considers it in the public interest for the regulator to do so. The current drafting of Clause 76 provides that in such circumstances the Treasury may order an investigation. Amendment 107B changes this discretion to a duty by changing “may” to “must”, and Amendment 107C is consequential on Amendment 107B. The Government agree with the points made that when the public interest test is met, surely the Treasury must require an investigation. Changing “may” to “must” is the right course of action. If an investigation by the regulator is in the public interest, and the regulator is not already carrying one out, then it is right that the Treasury should be required to order an investigation.

Amendment 107D responds to issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, in Committee. The amendment provides that where the Treasury directs either regulator not to carry out an investigation into possible regulatory failure or otherwise gives a direction to the regulator as to how it should carry out such an investigation, then such a direction should be laid before Parliament. The amendment also provides that the Treasury should do so as soon as is practicable after issuing the direction. I share the view of those contributing to debate in Committee that this will increase transparency and therefore confidence in the regulatory regime. However, in recognition of the fact that there may sometimes be circumstances where laying the direction before Parliament could have negative and unintended consequences, the amendment provides that the Treasury need not lay the direction before Parliament if doing so would be against the public interest. I beg to move.

[Lord Barnett]

It behoves me to say thank you to the noble Lord. It is hard to believe that the amendment that my noble friend and I tabled has now been accepted. I do not know what to say. Thank you is the only thing I can say.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, given the persistence of my noble friends in debates throughout the Bill as regards “may” and “must”, I imagined that their efforts would result in one signal victory, and this is it. We appreciate the Government’s movement on this point.

I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, said about the public interest being considered before a matter is laid before Parliament, but that in normal circumstances Parliament should be informed. I am very grateful to him for the fact that the assurances which he gave in Committee have been amply fulfilled with these amendments.

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[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

My Lords, it is greatly to the credit of the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, that he has not ducked the challenge of balancing the accessibility and availability of credit with its affordability and the terms on which it is made available. A number of noble Lords have made it clear, as indeed has the noble Baroness, that the availability and accessibility of credit is important. My noble friend on the Front Bench made a powerful intervention; he indicated a number of ways in which the amendment could be got around because of the gaps in it. It is important that we get this right and make it bullet-proof. For example, some of his thoughts about—if I heard him right—making a contract unenforceable under certain circumstances would add a great deal of power to this. I hope very much that we will be able to have a period of reflection and ensure that the unintended consequences that could come about, as evidenced by my noble friend’s speech, are avoided and we get something that stands the test of time.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, I have a couple of points. Throughout the Bill, my noble friend Lord Peston and I have constantly raised the question of “may” and “must”. That question arises in this amendment, too. The amendment, moved so wonderfully by my noble friend, states:

“The FCA may make rules”.

That could be “must” because the amendment is already constrained by the end of that sentence,

“on terms that the FCA judge to cause consumer detriment”.

That is why it is so important, as my noble friend Lord Peston said, that we see the Minister’s amendment as soon as possible. I am not a lawyer but I do not distrust them; however, the lawyers who advise Governments can make mistakes, which are usually resolved by lawyers on both sides eventually having an argument, at great cost to everyone including the courts, until someone decides in court who was right. On this occasion we have to try to get it absolutely right. I regard what the Minister said as very helpful.

My noble friend said that we must see the amendments as soon as possible. However, nothing is built in stone. No law states that we have to have Third Reading next Wednesday. If necessary it could be delayed a little. The important thing is to get it right. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, will consider having a discussion with the authorities, or with the Leader of the House or whoever, about whether, if we do not get sight of the amendments as soon as possible, we should delay Third Reading until we are sure that we have got it right. That is crucial. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, can inform us that he will do that.

[Lord Mitchell]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who took part in this discussion, particularly those who are co-signees of the amendment. It has been a powerful and focused debate and I hope that the payday lending companies are listening. My guess is that they are glued to their screens.

The Minister has made a welcome statement of intent and to be honest that is as much as we could have hoped for. With the Government’s cast-iron acceptance of the principle of my amendments, as well as the effective force of veto that the three other signatories to the amendment will have over the revised amendment at Third Reading, this issue is now where it should be: beyond party politics. The winners are those who have tirelessly campaigned for this change in the law. I must mention my honourable friend Stella Creasy MP, who has been relentless in her pursuit of justice.

The other most welcome winners are those who live in the hellhole of grinding debt. Their lives will become a little easier. The losers are clearly the loan sharks and the payday lending companies. They have tried every trick in the book to keep this legislation from being approved and they have failed. Their failure is our victory. On the basis of the Government’s assurances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Services Bill

Lord Barnett Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

It did go through my mind to ask my noble friend Lord Newby to assure me that we were back on Report—because we went back into Committee mode for a bit last week—so I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, for confirming that we are indeed on Report.

As I said in our previous discussion on professional standards, and as the noble Baroness knows full well, the Joint Committee of the two Houses is working away on this—indeed, I think it is sitting again this afternoon; I am looking around to see who is here and who is not in their place—and it will come forward with its suggestion as to what would be the appropriate body for professional standards.

Sadly, although professional standards are enormously important and they absolutely need to be raised in the industry, that does not mean that we do not need the construct that we are talking about in this clause. However, I can confirm to the noble Baroness that I expect that the default will be to publish and that there will be only limited circumstances, of which I have described one—although I cannot think of many others—in which it would wish not to publish. Indeed, other provisions in the Bill require the FSA to have regard to the desirability in more general terms of publishing as a back-stop.

[Lord Barnett]

Initially, I understood the Minister to say that the policy is the same after this amendment as before. I find that difficult to understand—if that is what he said. We are back to this “must” and “may” again. Saying that the FCA may publish such information is very different from saying that it must publish it. How does the Minister explain the fact that it is now only “may” and it is no different in policy?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, as we have discussed before—and perhaps we will come back to it in other amendments over the next couple of sessions—the mere fact of putting in the Bill a statement with a “may” in it actually carries much more than the common-sense connotation of “may”; it holds up a presumption that something is going to happen in this area. Here, we are merely allowing a small amount of room for what my noble friend explained as circumstances in which we would all agree it was patently absurd to give the full decision, if in fact it was based on a misunderstanding and the problem has gone away and we are just seeking to do a bit of tidying-up based on reflection on a discussion of this very point in October.

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[Lord Borrie]

Perhaps I may intervene for a moment to indicate that I feel that the basic principle—the opening words—of this amendment is extremely sensible and well worth while because it is concerned with the co-ordination of functions of two separate bodies which might otherwise conflict. Therefore, the notion that they should devise a memorandum of understanding seems very sensible.

I have to say to my respected and noble friend Lady Hayter that I am not sure that she has explained why, under new Section 140CA(3) to be inserted into FiSMA under Amendment 86A, it should be only in “exceptional circumstances” that the OFT should conduct a market study into financial services. On the face of it, that seems a sensible matter. It must be based on the notion that the Financial Conduct Authority has the greater experience, the greater expertise and the greater knowledge of matters affecting its remit.

However, in some cases where there is a need for an inquiry, known as a market study, into an anti-competitive practice of some sort, the greater experience may rest with the competition authority rather than with the FCA. It may not have come across, let us say, predatory pricing, cartels or some other aspect of anti-competitive activity, whereas the OFT might have a lot of experience on the matter.

In summary, co-ordination of the two authorities seems a sensible way of working and a memorandum of understanding is a sensible way to deal with it. But I am not sure why only in “exceptional circumstances” should the lead be taken by the FCA.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, this whole section implies that the regulator is not necessarily the OFT. I thought that the regulator of the Competition Commission was the OFT. I am now totally bemused as to whether the OFT or the FCA is the main regulator.

[Lord Peston]

The FCA is the regulator.

[Lord Barnett]

The FCA is the regulator but the OFT is referred to throughout this section of the Bill. Now, under new Section 140A, we have the FCA as well. This new section is headed, “Interpretation”, which should be interpreting for us—although I am blessed if I am interpreted in that sense. Consultation between the bodies must be sensible. I assumed that that would happen and I assume that the Minister will tell us that this amendment again is unnecessary and therefore should not be in the Bill. The officials should reply to this debate because only they understand what is being talked about because they drafted it. I assume that the Minister was not responsible for the drafting: he has enough to do without drafting a Bill of this size.

Who is the regulator here? If it is the FCA, what is the OFT doing? Perhaps the Minister will tell us. Who is the lead regulator? Is it the FCA, as is implied here, or the OFT? I am totally confused but, no doubt, he will be able to explain everything because it is written there in front of him.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, perhaps I may deal first with the amendments and then come on to some of the specific points that noble Lords have made about them.

The amendment and Amendment 106ZB would require the FCA to put in place a statutory MoU with the competition authority. Amendment 86A would additionally restrict the competition authority to carrying out market studies in financial services markets only in exceptional circumstances.

Amendment 106ZA seeks to provide for market investigation reference powers for the FCA. There are differing views on whether the FCA should have market investigation powers. The Government accepted the recommendation of the Treasury Select Committee that the case for MIR powers had not yet been made and that the issue should be reviewed when the FCA had bedded into that new role. The Bill instead gives the FCA a power to make a reference to the OFT or, in future, the Competition and Markets Authority, which would be very similar to a market investigation reference power but would leave the decision over whether to launch a second phase of investigation with the OFT or the Competition and Markets Authority. The OFT may choose to make an MIR without carrying out a further market study of its own, thereby avoiding duplication and delay.

However, before the FCA has fully bedded into its new role, it is important that the OFT, which has established competition experience and a track record of making MIRs, does not step back from competition scrutiny of financial services markets. It will of course be important that the FCA and OFT co-ordinate closely. We obviously agree with Amendment 106ZB in that respect. The FSA and OFT already have an MoU in place and are working to put in place a new MoU for the FCA. There is therefore no need for statutory provision to make this happen. There will be an MoU that deals with the issue of co-ordination on all these matters. We think that that amendment is unnecessary, because it is happening already.

Amendment 86A goes further than merely requiring an MoU and seeks to restrict the competition authority to carrying out market studies only in exceptional circumstances. However that is too rigid an approach. The underlying focus should be on the promotion of effective competition in the interests of consumers, and tying the competition authority’s hands is not the way to achieve that.

In terms of who takes the lead and is best qualified to do so, the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, answer that question. There will be some areas where the competition authority is simply best placed to take the lead, when compared to the financial regulators, because the competition authority has had decades of experience of that. We do not want to throw away all that experience by being too prescriptive about who takes the lead.

As to the specific comments that noble Lords have made, I was extremely grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for referring to the clear BIS advice, which not all noble Lords will have heard before. I am sure that she will agree with me, and they will agree with her, that it was very helpful.

In terms of competition and making sure that there are more new entrants into the financial services market, not least in banking, we have had this debate at every stage of the Bill. The Government have made it clear that they are extremely keen to see greater competition, not least in banking, but that is not done by putting detailed rules into the Bill, other than a general rule to promote competition; it is something for the regulators to reflect in changed rule-making powers of their own.

The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, reinforced the view that we need to promote competition. This is an example of how we are trying to make sure that the legislation goes far enough in this area. The noble Lord will be aware that under a government amendment debated last week, the PRA will be required to have regard to competition as one of its objectives. This has been a long-discussed point: will the PRA be so risk averse that it chokes off competition or will it not? We hope that by agreeing the amendment a few days ago, we made it clear that competition is absolutely central, and that everybody in the regulatory environment, including the PRA, will have to take it seriously.

The noble Lord, Lord Peston, asked about the reference in new Section 140B(5) on page 107 to the,

“acquisition of any goods or services”.

It does not say “financial services”, but the subsection relates to new Section 140B(4) above it. These matters all relate to the actions of the regulators, who have powers only in relation to financial services. The whole context of the subsection relates to financial services.

Banking: Offshore Accounts

Lord Barnett Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I do not think that I will be able to help the noble Baroness in the case of Mr Maluf, who is a Brazilian citizen. We are not in a position to comment on his case. In respect of international corporations, the key thing is the extent to which we can extend international co-operation in that respect, which is why the recent announcement of the UK Chancellor and the German Finance Minister, following a G20 Finance Ministers’ meeting in Mexico, was very important. We are now looking at concerted international co-operation to strengthen international tax standards. However, at the moment, it may mean that international companies can pay less tax than they would otherwise owe. We are trying to catch up with new forms of commerce and to make sure that tax is paid in proportion to where people are undertaking their business.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, I declare a past interest as a senior partner in an accountancy practice. Does the Minister recall that the advice best given is the thickness of a prison wall between tax avoidance and tax evasion? We all welcome everything that the Government are doing to try to deal with the evasion side. However, does the Minister accept that there is a serious problem on the avoidance side in that there is a danger that an accountant could be held in abuse of his work and could be sued for negligence if he does not give advice on the best form of tax avoidance?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, when it comes to tax avoidance, it is important that we begin to tilt the balance towards what is considered acceptable behaviour. That is one of the reasons why we will be introducing in next year’s Budget, or Finance Bill, a general anti-abuse rule. Those, including accountants, who undertake tax schemes, the principle purpose of which is to avoid tax, will find themselves subject to the rigour of that rule.

Financial Services Bill

Lord Barnett Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, this is an important piece of legislation, and I very much welcome it. I think that this House, along with the rest of the country, was shocked at the manipulation of LIBOR. It may have had the silver lining of at last persuading the banks that they had to take reform seriously, but certainly it was a stain on the reputation of the City and it put further in danger the economic recovery and the financial services industry in this country; so it was significant.

I think that in this House generally, and certainly among my colleagues, we very much welcome the Wheatley review. I was able to be at the launch of that document in the City. There were many present who were from outside the UK, and the consensus in the room was, “He has basically cracked it”; that Wheatley had found the mechanism and a series of reforms that could give us a LIBOR measurement that was clean, that would be respected and that could contribute to the purpose that LIBOR has served in rate-setting for many documents, instruments, investments and loans across the globe. I think that the attempts to put the necessary legislative pieces in place are well reflected in the document that we have in front of us today.

I have just a few questions for the Minister. Like others, I am somewhat concerned about the breadth of the general statement on benchmarks. LIBOR is not mentioned specifically anywhere in these amendments, so in breadth and scope it has about it a certain air of ambiguity. We suffer, of course, because this comes late in the process of legislation and therefore is not accompanied by the notes that would have been available and would have provided much further discussion had this been part of the original document. There are many issues. As the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, said, some people will look at the manipulation of the gas market and wonder whether that can be encompassed by this legislation; others will wonder whether the FTSE 100, which is an index used in a number of investments, could be encompassed. One could go through a fairly long list. Would the Minister be willing to put in the Library, through a letter or a note, some record that gives us a grasp of the scope of the use of benchmarks in the context of this document? That would be extremely helpful for everybody, and there would be something in the official record that we could turn to.

Unintended consequences are a feature of legislation, and in this area I think that we have had too many unintended consequences of various people’s actions. So it is important that it does not happen in the context of this piece of legislation.

I am very glad that we have language in here that gives the FCA the power to deal with, in effect, the freeloaders—those who benefit from the setting of the LIBOR rate but who, because they wish to keep their own particular credit standing secret, do not participate in the rate-setting process. I wonder whether there is any further guidance or if the Minister can help us understand what he would see as the scope for the FCA to identify those potential freeloaders. Are we continuing to look only at major institutions? Perhaps there might be some reassurance to minor institutions that would be a little nervous of being caught within this net.

Another issue that has been raised is how we cope with European legislation or directives coming down the track. We are all aware that Monsieur Barnier is looking at these matters, but I did not quite understand—and perhaps the Minister could clarify—whether or not secondary legislation will be delayed until there is some clarity on the issues that Barnier is raising, or whether we will proceed with secondary legislation with the idea that it can then be amended if there turns out to be a significant gulf between the secondary legislation that we put forward and the rules emerging from the European Union. In this context, LIBOR is a significant international benchmark which needs international respect. It should not become a football or subject of a battle between the UK and the EU that is driven by other issues. It is important that it serves the broad purposes of the financial services industry, and I therefore see no shame in encompassing the concerns and thoughts of those outside the UK in shaping LIBOR as we go forward.

All of us in this House will be absolutely delighted that there is finally an offence for which people can be investigated, prosecuted and serve time, as well as be fined. There was shock throughout the House that the manipulation of LIBOR was not subject to prosecution under existing statutes on fraud and the consequent penalties. I congratulate the Government on making sure that that part of the Wheatley review has been well incorporated into this process.

I wish to make a couple of comments to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell. I, too, am interested in the tender process that will lead to an administrator for the LIBOR-setting process, but he asked why it should not be a public body. I remind him that Barclays noticeably prayed in aid its conversations with the Bank of England in the attempt to justify the LIBOR manipulation. It is important that whichever body is involved in rate setting should be very clearly at a distance from the regulator and from any political body in order that we avoid a repetition of that attempted contamination. I have therefore been supportive of the idea that this will be a tender to a private entity. The noble Lord is quite right to say that we have to understand whether or not there are conflicts of interest because there is the thought that the most likely parties to tender for such a process might also be very involved in producing financial instruments on the other side, but not necessarily so. I also understand the need for flexibility in this issue. The complexity of making sure that the use of LIBOR in many existing documents is not disrupted by the changes we make is absolutely crucial. That is surely a level of granularity that cannot possibly be dealt with in primary legislation and has to be left to the flexibility of both the rule-maker and secondary legislation.

I very much welcome the legislation in front of us. Let us hope that this is the beginning of the end of a very unfortunate experience in the history of financial services in the UK.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, this debate began with the clear statement that we should abide by Committee-stage rules. I am sure that noble Lords will be as surprised as I am at the definition of Committee-stage rules in this debate. I thought we were debating a Second Reading, but forgive me if I misunderstood. I, like my noble friend Lord Eatwell, very much agree with the Government on wanting to introduce Wheatley. That review was excellent and well deserved our support. What I am worried about is the way that the Government have decided to implement it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Barnett]

That is apart from my noble friend Lady Hayter. I am not a lawyer, but even if I were what would worry me about the whole thing is that, at the end of the day, I still could not be sure that this new Bill, created by way of amendments, has got it right. We will know whether it is right only when the lawyers finish dealing with the law in the courts. For the moment, I have grave doubts about whether this way of doing things is right. I apologise to the House for this Committee stage speech, but this is a very unsatisfactory situation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Barnett]

I am sorry to interrupt, but I am trying very hard to understand where we are getting to. I understand that we will finish up with regulations on top of all this, which will finally decide the matter. However, I am still unclear about it. We had the note earlier from the Minister’s officials, which set it out very clearly. We are talking about not trivial sums here but global sums of $300 trillion. These are mind-boggling figures. It is not $300 million or $300 billion but $300 trillion. What we are deciding in considering this Bill clearly has major global interest. Have there been serious discussions on a global scale?

Earlier, my noble friend asked the Minister—wrongly, I think—whether his legal officials had given him a guarantee that they had got the wording right. Nobody is going to give him a guarantee; I assure my noble friend of that. It is a question which cannot be answered, because they will not give it; how can they? How can anyone? The noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, cannot give us a guarantee that the Bill has got it right now. My noble friend Lady Hayter found one lot that was wrong. It would not surprise me if she found something else wrong, if she were to look further, because it is a very complex matter. We will now have complex secondary legislation on top of all this shambles. I very much hope that this will be successful, but I am sorry to say that the way it has all worked out, I certainly could not guarantee it.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, there has been consultation on these clauses already. These clauses, which were published last month, have not been put forward in some huge rush; they have been put forward with due speed to reflect the seriousness of the situation that the LIBOR scandal revealed. Yes, there are hundreds of billions of dollars-worth of contracts relying on LIBOR, but many other very important equity market and other indices, in the UK and around the world, have functioned successfully for many decades. I have no doubt that as well as accounting firms and others, people who provide indices in other contexts—those who provide market data and who support market infrastructure—would be the sorts of entities that would be well suited to be the administrator of this important benchmark. There are many other critical functions of price discovery out there which are wholly run by private sector entities, albeit regulated under FiSMA in the UK, so we should not make a great drama out of this. The FCA will be regulating this activity, including the performance of the specified person.

The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, asked perfectly reasonably about what happens if somebody is not performing and does not want to give it up. Because the administration is proposed, subject to the secondary legislation passing, the administration of LIBOR will come within regulation. If the administrator is not performing, therefore, the regulator—namely, the FCA—can take regulatory action in appropriate cases, which could include removing permission to act, if appropriate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

I have some understanding, but I am a non-lawyer and it was a long time ago so it is only slight. Price stabilisation rules go back to pre-1991. They are very specific rules that allow things to be done in markets in very prescribed circumstances that would run against what might be perceived to be the free flow of markets. As the noble Lord knows, they were introduced in the context of ensuring a safe and stable aftermarket following a large share issue. I think they were first used in this country by the Government in the second sale of British Telecom shares, and they relate to that regime. If there is something else going on there, I will write to the noble Lord, but they are not intended to be some carve-out that could be used to get people off a charge of manipulating LIBOR.

[Lord Barnett]

I asked the Minister whether the criminal sanctions could be used retrospectively against those who may well be criminally responsible for the LIBOR scandal.

[Lord Sassoon]

Forgive me; I thought I did answer. It is an absolute principle that we do not put in place retrospective criminal offences because that would be, among other things, against human rights legislation. We will certainly not be doing that.

Property: Commonhold

Lord Barnett Excerpts

Monday 19th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

The Government and I will be very happy to make that commitment. The problem with commonhold is that virtually no one knows what the word means. Since being asked this Question, over the past week I have asked a number of housebuilders and senior chartered surveyors whether they thought that it was a good idea. More than half of them said that they did not know what it was. There is a big education job to be done.

Very often the management of mansion blocks is by a management company in which each leaseholder has a share. At their best, they can work very effectively and are almost identical to commonhold, but clearly there are ways in which we can improve how those blocks are managed.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, does not the noble Lord appreciate that there is a major need for large infrastructure plans to be implemented now? Industry has made it quite clear that guarantees are not sufficient. They want some Treasury cash. Why is the Treasury not willing to introduce just a little cash to implement these plans?

[Lord Newby]

Our experience is that everyone wants some Treasury cash but, sadly, they cannot all have it. It may be of some comfort to the noble Lord to know that in the past quarter, housing starts were up 18% over the previous quarter. In terms of social housing, housing association starts were up almost one-quarter.

Financial Services Bill

Lord Barnett Excerpts

Monday 12th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Blackwell]

My Lords, it is difficult to disagree with the objective of appropriate codes of conduct in this industry but I am left wondering what the amendment adds to the state of current regulations. As the noble Baroness will know, there is a regime of approved persons in the industry and to be an approved person, and to hold any position of responsibility in financial services, you are required to behave in accordance with a fairly clear code of conduct which covers many of the things that this amendment seeks to introduce. Before calling for the writing of yet another code, it would be helpful if the noble Baroness could explain what she thinks is omitted from the current code for approved persons, or whether it is an enforcement problem and, if so, how that would lead to better enforcement than currently exists under the approved persons regime. Otherwise, we are in danger of rewriting the same words over and over again.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, I strongly support my noble friend in her amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Blackwell, seems to be replying for the Minister, telling us why it is not necessary. Is it harmful to have this amendment in the Bill? If so, let him tell us how rather than asking whether it is necessary. As I would have expected, the case has been made very well indeed by my noble friend Lady Hayter and supported elegantly and eloquently by my noble friend Lord Peston. I hope the Minister will not take any notice of the noble Lord, Lord Blackwell, when he replies.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I always take a lot of notice of my noble friend Lord Blackwell. However, Amendments 25B and 31A raise a very important issue. The revelations during the summer about the attempts to manipulate LIBOR and Euribor demonstrated, if any demonstration were needed, that perhaps a considerable number of individuals in the banking sector have failed to live up to the most basic standards of professional conduct and that must, of course, be put right. We are tabling our amendments to this Bill to bring the setting of LIBOR within the scope of the regulatory regime and make it a criminal offence to attempt to manipulate benchmark rates, but that is only the first step.

The critical issue here, which I think has been rather forgotten in this debate, is that the Government acted very quickly to establish the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, made a passing reference to it. The noble Lord, Lord Peston, suggested that I may fob the House off by saying I have another version—he would say an inferior version—of this in the Bill. I absolutely will not say this. I will say there is a superior answer to this very big problem coming from the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. I entirely accept that there is a serious issue to be dealt with but the commission is established, it is doing its work and it will look at precisely what is needed to deal with the challenge.

[Lord Sassoon]

I will come on to that if the noble Lord, Lord Peston, will hear me out. Of course it is no good having a commission if its recommendations are not going to be taken seriously or enacted if necessary. We should remind ourselves of how this House is represented on the commission. It is quite striking that I do not see my noble friends Lady Kramer or Lord Lawson of Blaby in their places this afternoon, nor indeed the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham or the noble Lords, Lord McFall of Alcluith and Lord Turnbull. Why are they not here? I believe it is because the commission is at work today looking into these very critical questions. Experience and authority is being brought to bear on these issues in order to identify ways to put the highest standards of ethics and professionalism at the heart of the UK banking system and I believe that we should leave the commission to do its work.

I know, as do other noble Lords, that the commission will examine all possible solutions and of course the introduction of codes of conduct should be one of them. We have heard different views about the effectiveness of codes of conduct, but it is quite right for the commission to look at that. The commission has the membership and the tools it needs to do a very thorough job in this area and I do not think we should pre-empt it. It has the power to interview witnesses under oath and to send for the necessary people and papers. It has already heard evidence from, among others, Paul Volcker, the former chairman of the Federal Reserve, Martin Wheatley the chief executive designate of the FCA and from various members of the Independent Commission on Banking. The commission has already gathered an impressive range of written evidence from stakeholders, including the major banks, regulators and consumer groups, and that evidence was published last Thursday.

So, given that the commission’s work is ongoing, it is not the right time to make decisions on this very important matter. To do so would be to pre-empt and undermine the conclusions of the commission, which is investigating this issue so thoroughly.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords—

[Lord Sassoon]

I will give way to the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, in a moment but perhaps I may answer specifically the question of the noble Lord, Lord Peston.

The Government look forward to receiving the commission’s report and recommendations and will consider them with great care. It is due to report by the end of the year. As to when we might legislate, as the House knows, the Government will introduce the banking reform Bill, which was published in draft last month, into Parliament in the new year. That Bill may well provide an appropriate vehicle to implement any of the commission’s recommendations that require legislation. So we certainly will not lack a possible legislative vehicle, in the right timeframe, when the recommendations are made by the commission.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, the noble Lord has not hesitated, quite rightly, to put the LIBOR scandal amendments in this Bill. Now he is saying that he does not want to put in the code of conduct in case the commission comes up with it. In that case, why has he put the LIBOR scandal amendments in the Bill?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the Government kicked off a number of inquiries and reviews immediately we became aware of the LIBOR scandal. Martin Wheatley, the managing director of the FSA and the chief executive designate of the FCA, carried out one of the reviews which have led directly to the amendments in this Bill. We have acted on his amendments specifically addressing criminal offences and so on around LIBOR in this Bill. We also set up the commission to look at the wider question of professional standards and the way that banking operates and it will report by the end of the year. We will have a legislative vehicle in the new year, if required, to take up its recommendations, which the Government will take very seriously.

It is not that we are dragging our feet or want to stop these issues being addressed. It would just seem foolish to pre-empt a commission of great eminence which is doing enormously important work as we speak. I hope that, on that basis and the confirmation I have given about what is going on, the noble Baroness will be persuaded to withdraw her amendment. While the Government agree with the need to restore public trust in banking, we should not jump to legislate now but do so once the parliamentary commission has had time to do its work.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I have two amendments in this group, Amendment 26D and Amendment 27A. As I said during debate on the last group of amendments, this part of the Bill is extremely difficult and I make no pretence that what the Government and indeed the parliamentary draftsmen are contending with here is other than the greatest test of their skill.

None the less, I think that they have got the balance wrong. Noble Lords will know by now that there are three objectives that must be satisfied as far as possible under the Bill: the consumer protection objective, the competition objective, and what is called the integrity objective. My two amendments are designed to buttress the last of those three: the integrity objective. I suggest to your Lordships that of those three objectives, integrity must surely come first. It is frankly no use if the competitive aggression of the City of London remains the highest on the planet, bar perhaps Wall Street, if the standards of integrity are wanting. The same is true of consumer protection.

However, the Bill gives priority to competition over consumer protection and integrity. I dare say my noble friend the Minister will deny that, but I leave that to your Lordships to judge. Having set out those three objectives, proposed new Section 1B(4) to the FiSMA on page 20 then says the following:

“The FCA must, so far as is compatible with acting in a way which advances the consumer protection objective or the integrity objective, discharge its general functions in a way which promotes effective competition in the interests of consumers”.

That is either a pointless subsection because it has no meaning whatever, or it is a subsection which gives priority to competition. One does not need to labour the point that the tragic and appalling depths to which the City has sunk over recent decades and which it is not yet out of—let us make no bones about it—have their source in simple, ethical failure, and not in a want of competence, aggression of trades, shrewdness or anything else. We as a Parliament really owe it to the country—and, in a strange way, to the City itself—to make it clear that above, before and after all else it is integrity which must be supreme.

I must confess that I am now sorry that I did not attack proposed new Section 1B(4) head on. With other amendments, however, I have sought to strengthen the arm of the regulators in Amendment 26D, which puts as one of the issues that has to be considered when the regulator construes the integrity objective what I call,

“the fairness and integrity of policy and conduct of those directing or operating in the financial markets”.

It is a bit strange that there is no reference in this huge Bill to the regulator in relation to the individuals who are conducting business in the financial markets. My second amendment is to the proposed new section that defines the competition objective. It requires, among the matters to which the FCA must have regard,

“how far the methods or culture of any competition may undermine the integrity objective”.

I have just one more thing to say. The regulators in the City—as I said earlier, I have been there, mainly, not as a City player but within the City and acting occasionally for City entities and individuals—have an almost impossible task. That is because the law on regulation is now so voluminous and complicated, and those against the regulator are so clever, intensive and overwhelming in the resources that they can bring to resisting when it tries to intervene, that we owe it to what we are trying to achieve and, in aid of that, to the regulators to make it clear beyond peradventure that although this new Section 1B(4) will give competition priority between the three factors, none the less these additional subsections would introduce the conduct of the individuals and the concept of fairness into the equation, because they are notably absent in the wording of this Bill.

I have dealt with some of the regulators over the years and I can only pity them. We need to think what it is like when they are under huge attack and dealing with heaven knows how many cases, all of them complicated and all against businesses which will array against them 10 times the number of professionals that they have to deploy. We really need to make life that bit easier for them so that some cynical and crafty lawyer cannot say, “If you look at that clause and that clause, then that schedule and that schedule, then this Act and that Act and the rest of it, it is not clear. So, old friend, go ahead”. We do not want that.

[Lord Barnett]

The noble Lord makes a good point. He should perhaps have talked to some of his friends on the last group of amendments, when they all voted with the Government. I wonder what they might do this time. Has he convinced them, I wonder? We will have to wait and see. I was surprised by the proposed new section to which he referred because I thought I had understood the “may” or “must” argument. Those words are used profusely throughout the Bill. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, told us that he had asked officials to go through the whole Bill and work out which of them they should keep. What I had not appreciated—this is a point drawn to our attention by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips—is that on page 20 we have, in new Section 1B(4), another method of having “must” or “may”. We have a qualified must:

“must, so far as is compatible”,

with the later words. In practice, it is not “must” at all. The noble Lord wants to strengthen it, and I agree. We need to strengthen the arm of regulators everywhere. That is why I voted for the previous amendment.

We may be told that we should wait for the banking Bill, which we have in draft. We cannot be sure that that Bill will appear in that form. I know that at least one noble Lord on the Opposition Benches wants to insert in it something that the Government do not have in mind to insert; namely, a Glass-Steagall amendment. The Minister will know what I mean. I do not know whether he has committed himself or the Government to the draft Bill appearing in the new year. I think he said that we will have it in the new year. Perhaps he will confirm that. We clearly need a banking Bill.

I understand when the Minister says that the Government will take into careful consideration what the banking commission says, but he has not committed himself on that either. What exactly are the Government committing themselves to? They have set up this very high-powered commission, of which colleagues on all sides of the House are Members, and I understand that they are doing a first-class job, but we have been told only that he may, after serous consideration, introduce what the commission recommends. Will he firm that up this afternoon? Will we definitely have a Bill early in the new year, based to a large extent on the work of this high-powered commission, that will deal with some of the points that have rightly been raised about integrity and care? All these matters could be in a banking Bill as well as in this Bill but, for the moment, we have only this Bill. I support my noble friend Lady Hayter and the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. I will support him when he moves his amendment, and I hope his colleagues on the Liberal Democrat Benches will do the same.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

My noble friend Lord Phillips is quite right to draw attention to the importance of integrity. Integrity lies at the heart of confidence in the financial services system, indeed, in any commercial activity. In Amendment 26D, the noble Lord seeks to insert an additional requirement about,

“the fairness and integrity of policy and conduct of those directing or operating in the financial markets”.

He needs to be aware that the significant influence function committee already checks everybody who is undertaking the sorts of roles that he considers important—which are indeed important—and does so very thoroughly. It has done so with increasing pressure and difficulty in recent years, so much so that people are now ceasing to wish to undertake these roles. They are starting to ask whether they need all the hassle, the problems and the dangers of adverse publicity from people like the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. Powers exist to give authorisation to the people who will set the tone and the philosophy that he seeks to achieve, which all of us who work in the City feel are essential and which, as he rightly pointed out, have not always been present in the past. I say to the House, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, that we must get the philosophy right. The creation of codes and more regulations will not necessarily produce the right people. We are looking for people with judgment. We rely on judgment, not on process, and as we do this we are in danger of moving more and more to a process-driven system that does not allow the exercise of judgment that will lead to the desirable results that my noble friend indicated in his remarks.

Economy: Quantitative Easing

Lord Barnett Excerpts

Monday 12th November 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Barnett]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what evidence there is that quantitative easing is working.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, the Bank of England has estimated that the first round of quantitative easing reduced gilt yields by one percentage point, raised real GDP by around 1.5% to 2%, and increased inflation by around three-quarters to one-and-a-half percentage points. The Bank has also launched the funding for lending scheme to reduce bank funding costs and provide a strong incentive to make loans to companies and households cheaper and more easily available.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, therefore without QE, the recession would have been even worse. Is the Minister aware that since then, the Governor of the Bank of England said that the MPC would have to “think long and hard” before it restarted QE. The deputy governor said that it would be inappropriate to go on with it because there is no appetite to borrow and invest. On top of that, the chief economist of the Bank of England said recently that the economy is stuttering to start. He said that after knowing all that the Government are now proposing. What else are they going to do?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, first, since the noble Lord talks about the state of the economy, we should recognise that employment is at a record high; inflation, for which the MPC has responsibility, has come down very significantly; the trade deficit is down; and the economy is growing again. We really do not need too much unreasonable doom and gloom. I could cite many other recent quotes from the Bank of England, which has made its position completely clear. In October 2012, the governor said that the MPC stands,

“ready to inject more money into the economy”.

As, when and if it thinks the assessment is right, it is free and able to do it.

Financial Services Bill

Lord Barnett Excerpts

Tuesday 6th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Eatwell]

My Lords, this moves us on to a rather serious matter. Everybody in the House will be aware that there is considerable and growing disquiet about the powers heaped on the Governor of the Bank of England; he or she will chair the court, the Monetary Policy Committee, the Financial Policy Committee and the Prudential Regulatory Authority. On top of that, he or she is designated by the Bill to be the sole interlocutor between the Bank and the Treasury in the designated meetings with the Chancellor. On top of that, the governor must guide the Bank’s other activities in policy and research. And on top of that, the governor will continue to represent the Bank in international fora. I suppose that just occasionally he or she will sleep.

This is a ridiculous amount of power in the hands of an unelected official. Kate Barker, a former member of the Monetary Policy Committee, said, in August this year, said that the,

“steady erosion of democratic control over regulation of the financial system would accelerate under proposals by the coalition government”,

and that,

“Mervyn King’s successor will be appointed to an unduly powerful role for an unprecedented eight-year term”.

Kate Barker has great experience in this field and seems to have captured exactly the problem. As noble Lords will be aware, there has been considerable disquiet from serious financial commentators about the future position of the governor.

There is another inevitable downside to this agglomeration of powers. The post of the governor has become—and will become yet more—excessively politicised. That is very unfortunate. However, that is the inevitable consequence of the Government’s proposals. If that is the Government’s wish, they should face up to the consequences, and permit Parliament to debate the appointment, at least after the appointment is made. Even then, the prospect of such a debate will focus the mind, let us say, of the Chancellor in making a recommendation, in the knowledge that he will have to defend it before the House of Commons. I beg to move.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, I strongly agree with much of what my noble friend has said. As I have said before, I have been extremely concerned about the new governor’s huge job. As my noble friend has spelt out, we would be giving enormous powers to that new governor. That is why I have expressed my dissatisfaction, to put it mildly, with the way that this Bill has been drafted. I hope that my noble friend will accept an amendment from me to his amendment; namely, that it should be available not only to the House of Commons but to Parliament. This House has scrutinised this Bill to an enormous extent. To say now that the appointment should be deferred only to the House of Commons is something that I certainly do not like. I hope that my noble friend will rearrange his amendment to accept the word “Parliament” rather than “the House of Commons”.

We will come later to the question of “must” and “may”, but I am very pleased to see that in this amendment my noble friend has put “must” rather than “may”. It is certainly crucial that it should happen, because the appointments are extremely important. Somebody should be doing the job that the current governor is not doing, and which he is not being asked to do. Now we are asking the new governor, whoever that may be, to do such an enormous job that some potential contenders have already withdrawn from the race—and understandably, because the job that will be asked of this man or woman is enormous. I hope to have the opportunity to propose an amendment a little later to reduce some of those powers, but for now I strongly commend my noble friend’s amendment, subject to my suggested draft amendment to his amendment.

[Lord Flight]

My Lords, I do not particularly see how having a debate about the appointment after the governor has been appointed does very much to improve accountability. Ongoing accountability is needed. The debate is whether or not that should be through the Treasury Select Committee, or whether potentially there should be much greater constitutional development in terms of appearing before one or both Houses of this Parliament, in the sort of way that occurs in the USA. I agree with the principle that there is a great deal of power, which needs to have some accountability. Looking back over the events of the past five years, there was certainly a period between autumn 2007 and summer 2008 when it was very clear that the Governor of the Bank of England was completely unaware that a major banking run was overtaking this country. A bit of accountability and some questions from this House or the other place would perhaps have stirred things up.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, I share many of the frustrations that the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, has exposed in relation to the reviews that were commissioned, late and inadequate, and I completely accept that the Bank’s response did not seem fulsome. However, I think we have to give the new Government’s arrangements within the Bank a chance. While the Bill says that the Bank will decide about publication, that should be the Court of Directors and, as we know, the Court of Directors has a majority of non-executives. I hope that they will be invigorated by the new context provided by the separate oversight committee. If we keep trying to make functions of the Bank be carried out by the oversight committee we will undermine the court. We need to ensure that the court is strengthened and takes its responsibilities seriously. I also sincerely hope that the Treasury Select Committee in the other place becomes more active in seeking to engage with the non-executives via the oversight committee on how things work in practice.

[Lord Barnett]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend very strongly indeed. He has made a very strong point. I should declare an interest, I suppose. Until very recently I was probably the oldest living non-executive chairman of a plc. I hope I was a very active chairman. However, I know through many experiences of my own that some non-executive directors do not play a very constructive part, they just take their money and go and do very little—so there are two different kinds of non-executive directors.

I hope my noble friend manages to persuade somebody to change the name from the oversight committee. It is, as my noble friend Lord Peston said, a very strange name to have in the Bill, but it is not the only strange thing in the Bill. I hope the officials who advise the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, will perhaps come up with a new name but on the whole I would like to commend the officials, particularly those headed by Mr Whiting. He has been extremely diligent in the job he has done on all sides of this Bill, sending things and meeting people. He has been excellent.

I wish I could say the same about the Minister. I like him personally but I cannot say the same about his response to the amendments. My noble friend has made a very important point that an important committee here—whatever we call it, it is now called the oversight committee—can be overruled by the governor. I find that quite unacceptable. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, shaking his head means he cannot overrule it. I would be glad to hear that, but that is what it seems to be saying. I would like to hear how he puts that given the wording of the Bill, but for the moment I strongly support my noble friend Lord Eatwell.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

Yes, my Lords, the court is the governing authority of the Bank, and that is, I believe, completely the right construction for this particular matter.

[Lord Barnett]

What the noble Lord said just now seems to provide a new reason to change the name of the oversight committee. We do not need one. He is saying that the governor and the board of the Bank will know better than the oversight committee. Why bother with an oversight committee at all? That would be a simple solution.

[Lord Eatwell]

My Lords, I must say that I am very happy and I will now read through the Bill with great care and presume that wherever the term “Bank” appears, it means “court”. If that is so, I will check all the various clauses as we go along to ensure that “Bank” means “court” at all stages. If it means “court”, the Bill should say so and be clear—and that is what it is not.