Wales Bill

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble and right reverend Lord raises an interesting point and I will obviously take it away and think about it. In so far as thought has been given to this so far, we have been thinking about the scope of those reserved powers being included in legislation at the same time as the principle of reserved powers. There would possibly be issues and problems with separating out the principle from the scope of those powers, but I will certainly reflect on what the noble and right reverend Lord has said.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

On that point, potentially some substantial time may have elapsed before the principle of reserved powers comes into operation. The extent of the conferred powers has been shown by the Supreme Court judgment in fact to be highly flexible. To what extent has the Wales Office taken on board the effect of that judgment? Can we be assured that there will be no unnecessary legal challenges in future and that we have learnt the lessons of that judgment?

[Baroness Randerson]

Noble Lords can certainly be assured that, first, the Wales Office has studied that legal judgment very carefully and, secondly, that across government there is a determination to move ahead with devolution, and the development of devolution, on a cross-party basis, where it is possible to do so. There is a determination to ensure that we work proactively with the Welsh Government on issues. Indeed, that refers back to the Silk 2 recommendations, which included a number of mechanisms for improving relationships between the UK Government and the Welsh Government. That is very much at the forefront of our minds at this moment in terms of making progress.

In conclusion, our focus in the Bill is on implementing the first part of the Silk commission’s recommendations, and that must remain its focus. I urge noble Lords not to put the Bill at risk in the hope of something even better. Do not reject jam today in the hope of even more jam tomorrow. Use the progress in devolution that the Bill encompasses as a sound basis for further devolution. Do not for one moment entertain the idea that the best way of moving forward is to stand still and in some ways set this Bill aside and start again. We insist that this is a positive step forward and it is important that we demonstrate the cross-party agreement that exists on the further development of devolution.

Wales Bill

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

The noble Lord knows perfectly well that the Liberal Democrats are for the reform of the Barnett formula and always have been. I can give that assurance. I am just puzzled to hear what is said by the Scottish Labour Party, which obviously prefers the current arrangements.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

What about the Scottish Liberal Party?

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

The Scottish Liberal Party has been merged with the Scottish Liberal Democrats. I am not going to go any further into that.

The problem with devolution in Wales is that a Labour Government continuously in power—either on their own or as the lead party—escape accountability for their failures for a number of reasons. First and fundamentally, the essential link that all democratic Governments should have between raising resources through taxation and spending those resources on policies is missing. This Bill goes some way to dealing with that particular problem.

Labour’s demand for more money from the central government from a reform of the Barnett formula before they dare put these taxing powers to a referendum, is like Oliver Twist’s, “Please sir, can I have some more?”. It is Labour’s excuse for condemning Wales to fall behind in education and health, as it does, not merely judged by UK comparisons but also against international comparisons. Any very proper criticism of those failures is said to be “a war on Wales”—an empty piece of rhetoric first used by Carwyn Jones himself at the Welsh Labour Party conference in Llandudno in March.

Just as Labour seeks to delay the introduction of a Welsh income tax, so in the House of Commons debates on the Bill Labour sought to delay the introduction of the borrowing powers by waiting for a report on the legislative steps necessary to move to a model of reserved powers for the Welsh Assembly. I heard with interest the noble Baroness say that an amendment will be proposed to bring in reserved powers as the model in the Bill, and look forward to seeing how that is expressed.

The second matter that concerns me is that the recommendation of the Richard commission 10 years ago that the number of AMs should be increased to 80 to improve scrutiny within the Assembly was not pursued. The recommendations of the Silk 2 report, as the noble Lord will no doubt have noted, are that:

“A range of options should be considered in the short term for increasing the capacity within the existing National Assembly, including greater flexibility on the number and size of committees, increased numbers of research staff and better use of Assembly Members’ time. … The size of the National Assembly should be increased so that it can perform its scrutiny role better. The practical implications, and those for the electoral system, will need further consideration”.

The third matter that concerns me is that the press and media in Wales allow a dominant Labour Government to get away with it. Take the desire and the ability of the press in Westminster to tear Ministers limb from limb on a daily basis—for example the spat between Theresa May and Michael Gove over extremism in schools—and compare it with the deferential approach of the Welsh media over the very recent abject dismissal of Alun Davies, the former Welsh Government Natural Resources and Food Minister, for gross misconduct. One wonders whether the politicians and the Welsh media are too closely aligned and too ready to exchange roles.

I return to the Bill. I welcome the proposal to remove the current restrictions on individuals standing as a candidate for both a constituency seat and a regional seat. Studies by the Electoral Commission have shown that the current prohibition has a disproportionate impact on smaller parties, because they have a smaller pool of potential candidates from which to draw. The proposal to prohibit MPs from sitting as Assembly Members, and vice versa, is also welcome. It has an interesting history. Back in 1998, as the then Welsh spokesman for the Liberal Democrats I was lobbied from the very steps of the Throne by Mr Ron Davies Member of Parliament, the then Secretary of State for Wales, to give our party’s support to an amendment to the Government of Wales Bill which would permit him and others to have a dual mandate. At the time, it seemed reasonable to have some experienced politicians in the new body we were setting up, and so we agreed. However, I think that with the experience of the years that have passed it is time to end that practice.

I will raise another issue during the passage of the Bill. Much was made of the fact that two of the Lib Dem candidates in the last Assembly election were disqualified from being Members because they belonged to various public bodies, one of which was the Care Council for Wales. On the complaint of a Labour Party Member, they were interviewed by the police on an allegation that they had knowingly made a false statement in a document in which they gave their consent to being a regional party list candidate at those elections. That was translated into being disqualified from nomination.

The confusion arises because, under the Local Government Act 1972, a person is disqualified from being elected as a member of a local authority, whereas Sections 16 to 18 of the Government of Wales Act specifically say that:

“A person is disqualified from being an Assembly member”.

Of course, elections to local government are on the first past the post system; elections to the Welsh Assembly are done on both a constituency and regional basis. The regional election is in accordance with a party list. It is ludicrous to require a person on a list, who might not be first with a chance of election but second, third or fourth, to give up public service on a public body, very often unpaid, just to be a candidate. Although Liberal Democrat candidates were highlighted last time, I am aware that members of other parties stood as candidates, but were not elected, who might have been subjected to the same treatment. A successful candidate in an election ought to have a period in which to resign from any body that would disqualify him from being an Assembly Member—maybe eight days. I shall accordingly seek to amend Section 16 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 to make that position absolutely clear.

The aftermath of the Scottish referendum will, in all likelihood, see changes in Scotland. I was delighted to hear from the Minister that the situation in Wales will be revised; in particular, the lock-step will be looked at again. The structure of Welsh devolution is not yet satisfactorily settled. Once the Bill is passed as a further step, the focus in Wales will turn to the recommendations of Silk 2. The Liberal Democrats, who accept all its recommendations, will be here to return to the fray in the next Parliament. For the moment, I look forward to the fray in the Committee stage of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, who brings a reservoir of experience on the Welsh Development Agency and in public work in Wales generally. I agree with much of what he said about the scrutiny function, which, because of the increased responsibility of the Assembly, surely demands increased numbers. I also agree with him on Barnett—it was only to be temporary but it remains. I think he would probably not deny being a politician, but he must understand that, certainly in advance of the Scottish referendum and the 2015 general election, it would be foolish to expect any change in the Barnett formula before that time, at the very least.

I join the chorus of consensus in relation to the Bill, but I confess I cannot join the Minister in referring to it as an “exciting package”. As I left my native Swansea on Sunday or Monday, I cannot recall the bells ringing. It is unlikely to excite anyone, I would think. It is fairly limited. I speak at the end of the list. All has been said and I know that the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, would agree if I make three pastoral points. My first point is a simple, general point. It is claimed that the Bill represents another milestone along the road, in the words of my noble friend Lord Morgan, who taught me my politics at the University of Wales. The problem is: where is that road leading? No one knows and no one has revealed that destination—a point, I think, also made by my noble friend Lord Rowlands.

I concede, of course, that the Assembly, having made a shaky start and having only just won the referendum in 1997 by a whisker, is now a fully accepted part of the Welsh political landscape and is doing well. It has pioneered several initiatives that either have been adopted or will shortly be adopted at Westminster. However, there is a professional temptation to stop devolution at Cardiff; perhaps any move to city regions will provide a new opportunity for devolution within Wales and not just to Cardiff. Perhaps the report of the Williams commission, which reported in January, will provide such an opportunity. I note that the First Minister said a few days ago that there will be an expedited consultation period by September with the proposals brought forward in October. With the 10, 11 or 12 new larger local authorities in Wales, there will certainly be a much greater opportunity for devolution within the Principality, accepting the principle of bringing more power closer to our people.

In the 1970s, when I was a member of the so-called gang of six, my concern was always the problems posed by devolution in a unitary state—problems which could be solved in a federal system with clarity in the division of powers. The problems of constitutional principle remain today. Clearly, in this country, we do not do constitutions. Hence, I now agree that there should be reserved powers rather than conferred powers to the Assembly, and I note what other Members of your Lordships’ House have said about the absurdity of the Wales Office losing, on a series of references by the Attorney-General, on the question of the competence of the Assembly. I would ask noble Lords to read the judgment of 14 July, in relation to the power of the Assembly to regulate agricultural wages, before the very strong Supreme Court. I also note that it did not matter in principle whether the subject—in this case, agricultural wages—might also be capable of being classified as relating to a non-devolved area.

For the moment, we are likely to see a continuation of a series of small steps. I think that my noble and learned friend Lord Morris of Aberavon used the phrase “drip by drip” in his excellent contribution—a little bit of this, a little bit of that, with perhaps air passenger duty relating to Cardiff airport being in the next drip which is coming along. The Scottish referendum, even with a no vote, gives an opportunity for a rethink in Scotland, and that is bound to have repercussions for Wales. The Strathclyde report, published in June of this year, recommended that 40% of Scottish expenditure should come from devolved income tax. I think that that will have substantial repercussions. Perhaps there is never an ideal time for making rules of this nature, but to do so in advance of the Scottish referendum is manifestly not ideal.

I will not quote it now, but I commend to the House the Financial Times editorial of 16 June headed “Towards a federal future for the UK”, which argues that Wales and Northern Ireland should gain similar enhanced powers to those likely to be granted to Scotland. A new constitutional settlement, I say in passing, might also include a more consensual reform of your Lordships’ House. If we are really keen about removing the metropolitan flavour of this House and wish to involve people in the devolved Assemblies and local authorities more, we might have some form of indirect election.

My second point is that the package of financial proposals is complex and subject to further consultation. The new borrowing powers are most important and welcome. What prevents these borrowing powers coming into effect sooner? Why should not the formula, as many colleagues have argued, be the same as for Scotland, which would more than double the amount of borrowing available to the Assembly? I have noted the current controversy in the Assembly about the amount to be spent on the road network around Newport. I hope that the Assembly will avoid the temptation, which perhaps we always have in Wales, of spreading the amount non-strategically in penny packets and look strategically at the needs of Wales. It may well be Newport this time—it cannot be Swansea—and may be north Wales next time. However, let us at least look strategically at the major problems that face us. The principle of increased responsibility for expenditure is absolutely right, but I do not believe that the relatively small sums involved will take us sufficiently far along that road for the linkage between elections and responsibility for expenditure to be clearly perceived by the Welsh electorate as a means of generally holding those who spend the money to account.

We also have to be very wary in Wales of fiscal competition with richer areas. I note that the Mayor of London has now proposed devolving receipts from stamp duty in London to the Greater London Authority. That sort of devolution to London which they may pick up from us could have very adverse consequences for Wales. I shall not mention the Barnett formula, or Holtham and the general underfunding of the Principality, and that the people of Wales clearly would have as a priority poverty, youth unemployment, health and education rather than tinkering with relatively small revenue-raising measures. The margin of variation of income tax after a referendum would be small, and it must be asked whether there is much incentive to vary in any event. If we do not vary, what is the point of the power in any event? I remind your Lordships that only about 4,000 taxpayers in Wales pay the top rate. I assume that most are fairly close to the English border; surely some work should be done now on how they are likely to respond to an increase or decrease in the Welsh element of income tax.

Apart from stamp duty land tax and landfill tax in Wales, the Bill also enables other taxes to be designated as “devolved taxes” through secondary legislation. It would be helpful to know what other taxes the Government have in mind. Some could be dangerous—for example, a hotel occupancy tax could hit the tourist areas in Wales very hard—so we have to be extremely careful.

My third and final point is on the dual candidacy rules. Such electoral arrangements should surely, as my noble friend Lord Rowlands said, be a matter for the Assembly in any event, and it is wrong in principle for us to intervene, as the Electoral Reform Society Cymru has said. One of the noble Lords opposite said, as did the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, that it was nakedly partisan of the Labour Government to have brought this forward. Let me list some of those nakedly partisan people that have opposed the dual candidacy. For example, the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, the former Conservative Secretary of State for Wales, said:

“The present arrangements are really pretty indefensible”.—[Official Report, 15/6/05; col. 1216.]

Again, the current Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, said:

“I should also point out that the Secretary of State for Wales has said that if the Commission had considered what he called the systematic abuses carried out by list members in Wales, he would have reached the same conclusion that we have, namely that a ban on dual candidacy is the only effective solution”.

So much for the nakedly partisan nature of what the Labour Party has done—I think that this is good moment to call a cloud of witnesses in support of my contention.

I will not rehearse all the arguments, such as the Alice in Wonderland situation in Clwyd West in 2003, when there were prizes for everyone—everyone was a winner, as a fairground stallholder would say. I also note the Llanelli situation in 2003, which I witnessed, where the Plaid Cymru candidate, who had lost and was weeping copiously, then went half an hour along the road to Carmarthen and exulted at having won a position on the list.

The defence of the proposed change—proposed by some—is that it enables candidates to stand in both constituencies and on the regional list because the pool of able people in Wales, particularly for the smaller parties, is limited, and we should do our best to ensure that the best people find their way to the Assembly. It is surely a nasty slur on the people of Wales to say that we cannot produce sufficiently able people. I used to travel a lot when I chaired the Foreign Affairs Committee, and I recall the quality of politicians in Luxembourg, for example—pace Mr Juncker —and even in little Gibraltar. I used to admire the quality of the politicians there. We in Wales will not do worse than that. Is Wales so different? To quote, or misquote, the Reverend Eli Jenkins, “Thank the Lord we are a political nation”. Although I can see that there are arguments on both sides, I will certainly vote against the proposed change.

Overall, then, two cheers for the Bill, but I am still confused as to where such drip-by-drip Bills lead us: a brave new future for the Principality, or a constitutional labyrinth for our people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

No I am not, but the natural process of the way in which the formula works means that in times of spending restraint, where we have been for the last four years, the convergence process, which worked over many years and made the formula more, shall I say, sparing in relation to Wales, ceased to operate and we have had divergence which has brought Wales to a position of greater fairness now than in the past. That means, however, that if we go back to times of financial plenty, there would be an issue once again. That has been recognised in the exchange of correspondence between the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Finance Minister in Wales.

In response to the general point made by noble Lords from the Labour Party about dual candidacy, as I predicted, when we read Hansard tomorrow it will appear as the most important matter in the Bill to members of the Labour Party. It is significant to remember that the purpose of doing this is to widen the pool of good candidates. Time and again people have raised the issue of how important it is to have scrutiny of the highest nature in the Welsh Assembly. It is not only a case of ensuring that there are more Assembly Members—whether you agree with that or not—but of ensuring that the best candidates can stand and get elected.

Many noble Lords on the Benches opposite referred to the Clwyd West situation. I refer to the Nick Bourne situation, if my noble friend will forgive me, where, as the leader of a party in the 2011 Assembly elections, he failed to gain a seat because his party had done so well. That is an anomaly, and it is important to bear in mind that within this system you will get that kind of anomaly. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, who raised the issue of people who lose still getting into the Assembly, that that applies only if you think that elections should be on a winner takes all strategy. However, if you believe that elections are a way of ensuring that different strands of opinion are represented in our legislatures and Parliaments, you look at ways of ensuring that significant minority opinions are represented as well as majority opinions.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The very able leader of a party in Wales lost under that system. The solution is simple: his party should have ensured that he sat in a winnable seat.

[Baroness Randerson]

There are many other answers connected with the problems and anomalies associated with that system. However, I repeat, this system was established by the Labour Party in the first Government of Wales Act. It may not be perfect but it provides an element of proportionality, although not perfect proportionality by any means. Even now within the Assembly, 50% of its members are from the Labour Party even though it gained under 40% of the vote. It is not perfect but it brings some proportionality to the Assembly, which was an essential part of getting the original referendum accepted by the people of Wales.

I conclude by saying that it has been a great pleasure to listen to the debate. I am sure that I will be answering in considerable detail the questions that I know noble Lords will put to me when we return from the Recess. I invite your Lordships to support the Bill.

Wales: Silk Report

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Tuesday 21st January 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, on his initiative and on spelling out the details of the settlement on the basis of Northern Ireland, where there is an air passenger duty. I am not sure why in Wales we are likely to have problems with Europe in a way that Northern Ireland does not, but perhaps the Minister can ultimately spell that out.

As we welcome the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, to this House, we mourn the loss of Wyn Roberts, our very distinguished and beloved colleague Lord Roberts of Conwy. I am personally grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, for having given me a lot of help as vice-principal of what is now one of my local universities when I was a mere constituency MP. I was musing that I have known Members of the Committee—the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Elystan-Morgan—for almost 50 years. Certainly I have known the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, for 30 years, and I knew the father of my noble friend Lady Morgan. One could go on detailing the incestuous nature of Welsh politics.

If we are an overgrown village, that perhaps brings with it difficulties and temptations. If we have this capital-raising power around expenditure, there is a danger within the village of not looking strategically but of looking at penny packets in which everyone has a share. I am pleased that at least we all agree that the big priority now should be Brynglas in Newport and the M4, even though it is still some distance from Swansea.

Samuel Gompers, the great trade union leader in the United States, was once asked, “What does American labour want?”. He answered, “More”. I suppose that if we were to ask the Welsh people what they want, they would say, “More”. Of course, if there is also greater responsibility and accountability, that is a bonus, but what we in Wales really want is more as we are at the bottom of most of the indices of poverty and deprivation, and there are wide regional differences even within Wales. Scotland benefits most from the Barnett formula—and it is unrealistic to expect any change before the referendum—and we in Wales appear to benefit least. I guess that we could lose out on capital expenditure depending on how the block grant is adjusted.

It is worth recalling that Wales has suffered losses in terms of major capital expenditure projects. That would have happened even if the Silk commission recommendations had been put fully into effect. To give brief examples of that, there was expenditure of £9 billion on the Olympic legacy, including a diversion of the National Lottery fund, part of which would have come to Wales. However, in spite of the claims of the noble Lord, Lord Coe, and the delivery committee that the benefits would be spread throughout the UK, 83% of the value of the contracts went to London, the south-east and the east of England, while Wales was at the bottom of the table with 0.01% of the value of the contracts. Has the Wales Office asked for compensation for what we did not receive when it had been promised to us? There will be massive expenditure on HS2. Of course, we welcome the electrification of the rail line to Swansea by 2017, but can we plausibly claim that Wales is benefiting from this vast public expenditure? Finally, I mention the Severn Bridge toll, which now costs £6.40 for cars. As I was driving over on Friday, it occurred to me that this is really a major tax on Wales and a disincentive to investment, and it is far more relevant to us than many of these proposals. Obviously the toll cannot be abolished overnight but, in my judgment, it should be reduced in a staged process.

That said, Silk makes a serious effort to tackle the major deficiency in the devolution settlement—that is, the lack of responsibility and accountability at Cardiff Bay. That will of course have major repercussions for the Welsh Government, and there should be a serious effort to ensure that we have the expertise in finance at Cardiff which is presumably now lacking.

I have already mentioned the linkage between the borrowing and tax powers. The latter depends on the referendum and, if the referendum is unsuccessful, we are left with only the minimal changes—the small beer—which has been mentioned by the noble Lord. Perhaps we need a cross-party consensus and agreement to avoid the referendum, otherwise there could be a major obstacle.

On taxation, clearly we have noted the evidence of Gerald Holtham to the Welsh Affairs Committee last week. In his view, devolving part of income tax, subject to the referendum trigger, is likely to remain a dead letter. The only people likely to vote for higher taxes are those who pay no taxes at all. That was in the ICM poll for Silk. Perhaps the most important finding of the poll was that:

“The Welsh public would prefer fiscal transfers from the rest of the UK than higher taxes in Wales”.

The First Minister has stressed also the point about fairness in Wales.

Nevertheless, perhaps like Gerald Holtham I have been too pessimistic. If the tax-raising and borrowing powers are agreed, that will raise opportunities for a new approach and go some way towards resolving the dilemma of accountability. This is an important new phase—a stage in the devolution process.

Wales: Cost of Living

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Monday 2nd December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, I commend the initiative of my noble friend, in part because she focuses on the issues of real concern to the people of Wales and not to the elites. I cannot plausibly claim that there was some recent golden age in which we were close to the top of the UK premier division of prosperity and jobs. However, I do claim that our position is poor and deteriorating relatively as a result of government policies. We no longer have the high-wage jobs we had in the past. We now seem increasingly to specialise in low-wage, tedious jobs in areas such as call centres. Jobs in the high-paying financial sector elude us. Regional job creation and decentralisation of government entities, such as the Royal Mint and the DVLA in Morriston, seem to have stalled.

The Silk report has some alarming statistics on earnings differentials. Of the 1.4 million taxpayers in Wales, only 4,000 paid tax at the additional rate of 50p. Our economic and social profile shows a great dependence on the public sector—thus Wales is hit hard by the squeeze on public sector jobs. There is greater poverty, greater dependence on welfare and, therefore, more vulnerability to the Government’s welfare changes. The Rowntree Foundation report, published in September, concluded that 26.5% of the working-age population of Wales was economically inactive in 2012. This was higher than in Scotland or any English region.

I recently spoke to a young graduate with a good honours degree and a master’s degree. The only job he could find had no prospects and a wage of £12,000 a year. I invite the Minister to look in the windows where jobs are advertised and see the type of jobs on offer. I wonder how that young man reacted if he heard Boris Johnson exulting in greed and inequality, or if he saw last Friday’s Evening Standard headline: “London has 2,700 bankers earning more than £1 million”. This compares with 212 in Germany, 117 in France and 109 in Italy. I wholly agree with my noble friend that it is hard for a Cabinet with so many millionaires to understand the plight of the poor in Wales. Our Government are just out of touch.

The bedroom tax has already been touched on, so I will not mention it, save to say that the prospect of downsizing to single-bedroom houses is just not available for the great majority of people who are now on housing benefit.

South Wales is the region in Britain with the highest combined gas and electricity bills, while north Wales has the third-highest. The number of energy accounts where the customer has fallen into arrears has increased more in Wales than elsewhere in Britain. In 2012, Wales had the highest proportion of workers who earned less than the living wage than elsewhere in Britain. Clearly, government action—or rather inaction—affects us the most. I could continue with these depressing statistics, so one is inclined to consider some dramatic moves, such as, for example, the abolition of the Severn Bridge tolls, which work as a heavy tax on the Principality.

In conclusion, I recall a classic cartoon that showed people standing on the steps of a ladder that descends into water. One person stands on the lowest rung, with the water up to their neck. Let us call him or her “Wales”. Someone then arrives and boldly proclaims, “I feel your pain; we are all in this together”, and orders everyone, save those on the top rungs, to take one step down in the interests of austerity. Let us call that person “the Government”.

Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2013

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Randerson]

It is not my intention to do so. As I will make clear later when responding to the questions and comments of noble Lords, it is very difficult to know the extent to which this will spread throughout Wales, because it will be a devolved issue and not one for your Lordships’ House.

I will return to what I was saying in introducing the regulations. Persons who have received penalties can make representations to the relevant enforcement authority against the imposition of the penalties in particular cases and can appeal to an independent adjudicator if their representations are rejected by the local authority in Wales. The regulations set out the grounds for making representations and for appealing, and the schedule contains rules for the conduct of proceedings before adjudicators.

Using their executive powers in the Traffic Management Act 2004, Welsh Ministers propose to expand the range of offences for which civil enforcement may be used by local authorities in Wales to include bus lane contraventions and some moving traffic offences; for example, restrictions applying to cycle lanes, left or right turns and box junctions. These specific regulations are necessary to ensure that persons on whom civil penalties have been imposed in Wales can make representations against the imposition of the penalties and can appeal to an independent adjudicator if their representations are rejected by the local authority in Wales.

The regulations should be read in conjunction with a further set of regulations, the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (General Provisions) (Wales) Regulations 2013. Assuming that the regulations before the Committee today are approved, these regulations will be made by both the Lord Chancellor and Welsh Ministers and laid before both Parliament and the Assembly, subject to annulment. A copy of the proposed regulations is attached as an annexe to the Explanatory Memorandum.

The general provisions regulations must be signed by both the Lord Chancellor and Welsh Ministers. They provide detail in relation to the service of penalty charge notices and the immobilisation of vehicles. They also prescribe requirements in relation to the use of income generated from penalty charge notices and deal with the appointment of adjudicators by enforcement authorities.

Welsh Ministers will need to make several sets of regulations in addition to both these sets of regulations, subject only to Assembly procedure, to complete the package of legislation. The first of these, the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) Removed Vehicles (Wales) Regulations 2013, deals with the appeal process where a vehicle owner does not agree that a vehicle should have been removed and/or disposed of by the local authority in Wales.

The regulations dealing with appeals against removed vehicles were laid in draft before the Assembly on 19 December and are subject to a resolution of the Assembly before being made. A further set of regulations subject to annulment in the Assembly is expected to be laid in due course. The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices) (Wales) Order 2013 will deal with technical specifications for devices used by local authorities in Wales to capture road traffic contraventions; for example, camera enforcement. My department continues to work closely with the Welsh Government on the delivery of the overall package.

In the interests of simplifying this area, the opportunity is being taken to consolidate the law. Provisions relating to civil enforcement of parking, bus lanes and moving traffic offences are being consolidated throughout the package of statutory instruments.

Under the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, parking adjudicators are a “listed tribunal” which is required to be consulted on these regulations. We have therefore consulted the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council on the draft regulations and the council has confirmed that it is content.

The regulations before your Lordships today are entirely in line with the division of responsibilities between the Lord Chancellor and Welsh Ministers for civil enforcement provided for in the Traffic Management Act 2004. The regulations have been considered by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which has determined that the special attention of the House need not be drawn to them. They have been considered also by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, which has approved them without comment.

The Government’s role in bringing the regulations forward demonstrates our commitment to observing devolution arrangements and, where appropriate, to collaborating with the Welsh Government to enable them to deliver their commitments in Wales. I beg to move.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, I have reassuringly good news for the Minister: I think it unlikely that these regulations will be contested. Clearly they are, as she said, part of a package of representation and appeals procedures that appear to be eminently sensible. Obviously, the regulations are not controversial. There is a strong consensus in favour of the regulations in Wales. As the Minister has said, they are part of a process of devolution, and of working together at both London and Cardiff levels.

I also agree with the Minister that the mischief aimed at is very clear. It is the assessment of the Welsh Government that the heavy workload of the police in Wales means that a relatively low priority is given to the enforcement of the bus lane offences. Therefore, the case is made that local authorities, which clearly have an interest in the enforcement of these regulations if they so choose, are likely to lead a more speedy and effective enforcement process. Indeed, the process is likely to encourage a greater use of buses. It is relevant and related to the good work of the Assembly done over “park and ride”, for example. It may well lead to a reduction in congestion, along with many other measures in the urban areas.

Briefly, to put this in context, bus lanes are by definition overwhelmingly relevant to urban areas. However, we have just heard that the financial support for buses and rural transport has been substantially reduced. The Assembly has just announced that in the coming financial year, 2013-14, the sum available for rural transport and buses is £25 million, whereas in the current year it is £33 million. That is a more than 25% reduction and obviously has implications not only for the increasing isolation of rural areas but for the elderly and low-income groups within those areas. It has relevance, too, to young people seeking jobs.

I obviously have a few questions for the Minister. Looking at the process which she has outlined, based on the 2004 Act, it is clearly highly convoluted and lengthy. I would be grateful if she could indicate whether she agrees with that, and what proposals she has for cutting that down. One obvious conclusion is that the involvement of the Ministry of Justice and the Lord Chancellor is really a fifth wheel to the coach. This is a series of decisions which should properly be made in and for Wales. There is no real contribution. Think of all the forests in Finland which have been cut down and the time wasted at the Westminster level for this type of regulation. I hope that the Minister and the Wales Office will be considering how best one can streamline these procedures. That, I am sure, would be much supported in Wales.

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[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am not sure whether this is the first order that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, has brought to the Committee as part of her responsibilities for Wales—I know she has done it for Northern Ireland before—but I cannot imagine that she was waiting in awe for the excitement of this order when she took up her responsibilities in the Wales Office.

To pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, it really is beyond belief that we need to apply ourselves to this sort of detail at Westminster. If devolution means anything, surely this sort of detail should be handled down the road in Cardiff. I understand that they had a committee that looked at it for all of 30 seconds and that those who have looked at it up here have no comments to make on it. It is all detail that, no doubt, was appropriate for consultation, but it is beyond belief that a consultation on something like this should take three years. If a consultation is to be meaningful, one would imagine that all the interests would have been taken on board, including those of people who run shops.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The consultation did not take three years; that was the period following the end of the consultation.

[Lord Wigley]

I understand fully that it took about four months to receive comments from the consultees and then three years to digest what came back. If it is taking that long, surely interests such as those of shopkeepers should be taken on board. If bus lanes have an impact on anyone, it is on shopkeepers. There can be serious problems for people who need to stop and pick up their purchases.

Let me pick up the point about finance. We are told that this is self-financing. Do we therefore assume that those involved are keeping some of the money arising from the fines that are imposed? If so, who gets the money? Is it the local authority or the National Assembly? If the money is not adequate for the costs of running the new system, who pays the difference? Is it the local authority? Who pays for the appeals, for which no doubt there will be a cost? At a time when there is a tremendous squeeze on local authorities, I would have thought that the last thing they want is additional costs.

We are told that Welsh Ministers can extend the range of contraventions and are involved in the mechanics in a pretty fundamental way. Therefore, at an appropriate time—I realise that this goes beyond the scope of what we are debating today—should we not consider transferring this matter lock, stock and barrel, so that it can be handled in Cardiff without taking up our time in this Chamber?

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[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I will preface my remarks and my attempts to answer all the questions—of which there were many—with a key point that I must stress. It is important to recognise that under the Traffic Management Act, the decision to expand the civil enforcement regime in Wales falls within the executive competence of Welsh Ministers. They have concluded that they should now make use of their powers under the Act in relation to bus lane and some moving traffic offences. That decision having been made by Welsh Ministers, these regulations are necessary to ensure that people upon whom civil penalties have been imposed are able to appeal to an independent adjudicator if their representations are rejected by a Welsh local authority. In other words, we are here today—as several noble Lords pointed out—to carry out the desires, wishes and policies of the Welsh Government, but we are doing so within the framework of UK legislation.

The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, called attention to the Welsh Government’s view that the police give low priority to traffic and bus lane offences because of their heavy workload. That is undoubtedly the case. I recall the police saying to me on several occasions when I was an elected representative that they did not have the time or resources to pay attention to such issues. It was one of the more frustrating parts of my role as an elected representative to try to deal with the concerns of local residents about things that were very important to them but which the police did not regard as a priority—for good, logical reasons in the larger scheme of law enforcement. The noble Lord referred to the fact that bus lanes are issues in urban areas. He called attention to the reduction in financial support for bus routes within Wales. I must point out that this is a budgetary decision entirely of the Welsh Government.

The noble Lord rightly pointed out that this is a lengthy and complex process. The intention is that all four instruments to which I referred will be made simultaneously, once Parliament has approved the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations, and the Assembly has approved the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) Removed Vehicles (Wales) Regulations 2013. The general provisions of the regulations will come into force a minimum of 21 days later.

The process is complex because both the UK and Welsh Governments are involved. Noble Lords expressed frustration about this, which I understand. Perhaps I may gently point out that the Silk consultation is ongoing, and if noble Lords wish to make representations on this issue to the commission, that would be entirely in order in terms of the work that it is doing.

The noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Wigley, referred to the considerable length of time since the consultation exercise was concluded. The time lapse can be explained by further work which was undertaken to develop the regulations with the adjudication service, with the British Parking Association and with local authorities. However, as noble Lords have said, this is a complex issue. We are working here entirely to the timetable of the Welsh Government. This is the Welsh Government’s policy. We are working with them to implement that policy. I am sure that we would all wish that it is now implemented as soon as possible.

Statistics were raised by the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Jones. These are, of course, new enforcement powers which local authorities will be able to use. Previous statistics do not fit these powers. The previous traffic offence statistics which exist are supplied by the police. They are not supplied on the same geographical basis. They are not, as far as I am aware, broken down into individual offences—although I will check that out and write to noble Lords if I am incorrect. Of course, those statistics reflect a police service which has said that it does not have the time to do this job as effectively as it would wish. Any previous statistics are therefore of relatively little application to the current situation. Of course, the police will continue to have the powers to do this, as they have at the moment. We are looking at local authority enforcement, but there will be a two-strand approach, as the police will also continue to enforce.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The police will still have the powers but it is fair to assume, given the low priority, that in most cases they will try to pass this on to the local authority. There must be some guesstimate in government of how many additional employees there will be among the local authorities, otherwise one is totally in the dark on this.

Wales: Devolution

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Thursday 19th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, on choosing this debate. For me, the real problem is channelling more resources to Wales, and the issues of accountability and the irresponsibility which comes from spending without actually raising the taxes are secondary. The issue of more resources for Wales is important and bristles with problems, so I am sad to see the lack of interest in Wales in the Silk commission. For example, the first public event in Wales, in Swansea in March, was attended by but 11 people.

I am not surprised at the findings of the ICM poll, published this month, in which those polled agreed that, in principle, greater tax powers should be given to Wales. Sadly—or perhaps surprisingly—the most enthusiasm for the transfer of tax powers came from those who do not pay taxes. More than 76% of the unemployed thought that there should be a transfer of tax powers, and Paul Silk himself commented that it is clear from the poll that there is a limited understanding of taxation issues among the public as a whole. This begs the question: how much weight we should then attach to the findings of that poll? The most important finding is on page 13. It states that,

“the public subscribe to the view that in an age of austerity, public spending in Wales must not exceed revenue raised in Wales ... the Welsh public would prefer fiscal transfers from the rest of the UK than higher taxes in Wales”.

Surprise, surprise. This sounds very sensible indeed.

I should like to raise one or two preliminary considerations, if I may. In a unitary system of government, and a small country, the problems of differential taxation are great, and the situation would be made easier in a federal system. There is, for example, the frequently raised problem of air passenger duty. How would it help Cardiff Airport if this were transferred? It would be taken into consideration in the block grant. If the air passenger duty were higher in Wales than England, Wales would lose business. If it were lower, let us imagine the cries from Bristol because of the incentive for people to go to Cardiff. Surely the problem is poor access to Cardiff Airport. Therefore, I welcome the proposed new railway station there, which was announced this week.

Our concern should really be justice within the UK; hence the debate on the Barnett formula. There is an overwhelming case for the distribution of resources to be based on need but, realistically, that will not happen before the Scottish referendum. What do we know about need within the UK? Fascinating figures on regional unemployment were published by the European Union on 4 July. There were two important conclusions. The first was that some regions in England are worse off than Wales; and Scotland is better placed than Wales. So we should beware of interregional conflict. In 2011, for example, the unemployment rate in Wales was 8.6%; in Scotland, it was 7.9%; in the West Midlands, it was 9%; in Yorkshire and Humberside, it was 9.4%; and in the north-east, it was 10.8%.

The second conclusion from these regional statistics relate to the divisions within Wales and, indeed, the widening gap. For example, in west Wales and the valleys the unemployment rate in 2010 was 9.2%, but in 2011 it was 9.9%. In east Wales, however, the figure decreased from 7.8% to 6.5%. Surely this widening gap should be addressed. It should be a major concern of the Welsh Assembly Government and of this House. In passing, I should say that I welcome this week’s announcement of the extension of the electrification of rail as far as Swansea and the valleys. Without that, the regional gap would be further widened.

That obviously leads to a debate about the definition of devolution. Although that debate is not for today, one still might ask why devolution should stop at the National Assembly level. Proper devolution should be extended to the lowest practical tier of government—in other words, subsidiarity. Currently, our local authorities are weakened. I therefore welcome the debate about city regions promoted by the task force report published on 11 July.

On taxation generally, I am not surprised that the Welsh Affairs Committee in the other place, in its January report, reached no conclusions. We should recognise the danger of Wales losing out in interregional competition and falling into the trap of seeking differences for their own sake, such as the variation of income tax or the so-called nudge taxes, such as the 5p we pay in Welsh supermarkets for plastic bags. But the more successful these nudge taxes are in altering behaviour, the less revenue is raised. Thus it is done for social and not revenue reasons.

If we follow the Holtham recommendations, and the Welsh Assembly Government were to introduce new taxes on goods or activities that are currently not taxed at the UK level, it could be a serious disincentive to inward investment at a time of increased competition. Obviously, much of the debate centres on devolving borrowing powers, which I am certainly not against in principle. The trouble with borrowing, however, is that it has to be repaid. One sees the problem, for example, with the PFI scheme and the property bubbles in Ireland and Spain. Clear limits have to be set by the UK Treasury, as the noble Baroness readily acknowledges, otherwise the problem can get out of control, as happened in Spain with the degree of devolution of borrowing powers to the autonomia and the difficulty of the Spanish federal Government in dealing with their fiscal crisis.

Where is the domestic revenue stream in Wales to repay? How can we provide flexibility in the context of block grant variations? To what extent will the problem be met at the UK level by the new government guarantee scheme announced this week to underwrite private sector investment? Perhaps the Minister could say how relevant this scheme is to Wales, and what effect it might have on the current debate.

The starting point of the debate is surely that in Wales we are relatively poor, in the UK context. There is a shortfall between the UK taxes raised in Wales and the UK public spending in Wales of around £15 billion, roughly equal to the total Welsh Government expenditure. Taxes raised in Wales would be raised from a weaker tax base, as Wales generates 70% of the UK average GVA. Therefore, a penny on income tax raises 30% less in Wales, and Wales would lose if, for instance, 10% of income tax were raised here.

If some of the tax raised were taken off the block grant, there would be a worse outcome for us than under the Barnett formula. The devolved borrowing powers could therefore be a distraction from the primary question of how much capital investment we need. What is our fair share of UK capital investment, and where is the continuous income stream to pay for the borrowing? Perhaps we could use the Severn Bridge tolls? In passing, I must say that the Severn Bridge toll is a major tax on Wales, and a major disincentive for inward investment. Perhaps the best way of helping Wales at the moment—certainly south Wales—would be to abolish the toll, or at least make it cover maintenance costs only.

I agree with Geraint Davies, my own MP for Swansea West, in his submission to Silk, that there may be a case for tinkering at the edges, or for experiments such as our plastic bag tax, but that to concentrate on these may well divert attention from the main issue; that is, that our interests are best served not by flirting with ingenious new tax devices, but by claiming more and ensuring that Wales obtains a fair share of the national cake based on our needs, which certainly does not happen currently under the Barnett formula.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

Almost on cue, I was about to turn to a number of the specific points that noble Lords raised in the course of this debate. What was described by at least one noble Lord as the elephant in the room is the Barnett formula. This, of course, is not part of the remit of the Silk commission, nor of the Calman commission.

I know it will disappoint noble Lords, but the Government made it very clear in the coalition agreement that the priority is to stabilise the public finances and that no replacement to the Barnett formula will be considered until the nation’s finances are back on track. However, I could not fail to hear the comments of everyone who contributed to the debate, I think without exception. Someone pointed out, although admittedly not in the context of what appears in the coalition agreement, that the Secretary of State for Wales had said that the Barnett formula was coming to the end of its life. However, I reiterate that the Government’s position is that the priority must be the stabilisation of the public finances.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The Minister has said that the Barnett formula will be reconsidered only when the economy is back on track. Recently, the Prime Minister said that austerity will last until 2020. Does that mean there will be no substantial revision of the manifest injustices resulting from the formula until that time?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I have described what was said in the coalition agreement for this Parliament. I do not think that anyone would be wise enough to predict the policy of any Administration, of whatever hue, in a subsequent Parliament. My noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Roberts of Llandudno were right to point out that the previous Administration did not address this either. Indeed, in their response to your Lordships’ Select Committee report, they stated that the Barnett formula:

“has a number of strengths”.

Wales: National Assembly Elections

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

My Lords, it is probably worth noting that there is a degree of suspicion on the part of some political parties due to the way in which we have seen the suggested changes to constituency boundaries and the likely political impact.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

Perhaps the noble Baroness will permit me to say that the suspicion is in part because of the effects of the constituency Act, which has borne down most heavily on Wales. Indeed, it has reduced the weight of Wales at Westminster and clearly has important party political implications. That is why, in my judgment, there is a considerable degree of scepticism about the bona fides in this case.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

Another point I want to make is that it was recognised that there might be a change in the size of the Assembly. It was suggested that if that happens, the change could be made up for on the regional basis of the regional list. It could be, therefore, that there are many more members on the regional list than on the first past the post system. That would be a departure from anything this country has previously seen. I believe that what we are suggesting here may have implications for the long term and that at some point, due to changes in the responsibilities of the Assembly, more powers may be given. There may be a need for more support in the Assembly. If so, I would be really concerned that that would be made up on the regional list.

As regards the dual mandates, in principle, it is difficult to serve two political institutions at the same time. However, it can be beneficial to have some individuals also plugged into the national level. There should not be a double mandate, certainly as regards Assembly Members and Members of Parliament, for more than one year. We should encourage a little bit of movement between the two levels of government, but a case could probably be made for the House of Lords. As yet, we do not have individual Members of the House of Lords democratically elected to represent Wales. We happen to be Welsh people, but we do not represent Wales here. It is an accident and we are not speaking officially for Wales in any capacity. However, despite the fact that some individuals would not have a mandate to speak for the Assembly, it would be useful to keep a link and a channel of information open between the different institutions. I have a concern that, as the Assembly settles, we will see less movement between the institutions. Then there is the question of whether you could or should stand on a constituency list in addition to being on a regional list. I can understand how unjust that felt in 2003 in North Wales, when the constituency Labour Member won and each one of his defeated opponents then popped up on a regional list. On the other hand, I felt a little bit sorry for a Tory—which does not happen very often, I can assure you—when the leader of the Tory group, Nick Bourne, was knocked off the regional list; he was rejected because of the success of his party at a constituency level. So I have a degree of sympathy, which does not happen very often, as I said.

My conclusion and my clear message is this: whatever is decided, it should be decided with the blessing of the Assembly. If it is not, it will be perceived as something being imposed from London and that will be simply storing up trouble for the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

She claims that she is Welsh.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

Others say she is English.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

She is an intelligent person. The Minister should go back to her and say that the time is not right to do this. It will make it worse, given all the implications that are looming. I agree with my noble friend Lord Touhig that probably the best and most intelligent thinking on constitutional reform that I have seen in 26 years in the Commons and now six years here is reflected in the alternative report that came out of the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform. It asked for a comprehensive look to make sure—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, I have no interest to declare other than that I have enjoyed going down memory lane, being back in the Welsh Grand Committee and hearing contributions from a number of former colleagues there. Perhaps if I were to follow my good friend the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, I would confess that I was held up at Swansea High Street Station as I was trying to leave this morning by a queue of unemployed young people wanting to lobby me on the provisions of this Green Paper.

I follow the point about respect which is being made by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas. If we are to change constitutions, we should do so, as far as possible, after full and genuine consultation and on a non-partisan basis. If it were not so, the party which felt aggrieved would feel quite justified in altering the situation after another election. I felt that the reduction from 650 to 600 parliamentary seats was done in a partisan manner. It was a figure pulled out of a hat: it had a disproportionately adverse effect on Wales and will mightily reduce the weight of Wales at Westminster. The National Assembly is now a full and accepted part of the political landscape of Wales and is evolving in a highly mature way. The principle of respect mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, should mean that, for a wholly internal Welsh matter like this one, we have some way of saying “Well of course it is a reserved matter; yes the Parliament here at Westminster has to have overall responsibility; but surely there should be some formula for subcontracting the real work on this to the Assembly”. In the spirit which the First Minister has shown, I am sure that there would be a very rigorous and proper debate there.

At this point in the progress of the Assembly—in a direction we know not where—they should be in the driving seat and we should be allowing them to make their own decisions. I agree with the Green Paper that the spirit is not an absolutist one. On the various issues which have been raised, people of good will can come down easily on one side or the other. To be fair to the Government, although they express their own preference, there is no closed book on this.

On the various proposals in terms of constituencies, we currently have a distribution of 40:20 and an overall number of 60. Whatever the merits of an increase to 80 or 90, I do not think Welsh public opinion would be happy to see this. I hear the arguments about leadership, but there is a strong tide flowing against more elected representatives. In spite of the recent accretion of powers to the Assembly and despite the fact that there will eventually be an overwhelming case for increasing the number, I am not persuaded that we have yet reached that point along the continuum.

I would like to have a personal chat with the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, on this, but the Assembly meets for two days a week, plus committees, and I do not have the feeling that it is overwhelmed. However, I hear the case that there is inadequate scrutiny and there may be an argument for finding more ways of having checks and balances on whichever party is the leading party in the Assembly. Whereas the House of Lords has a function as a check and balance on the Executive, there is no similar mechanism within the Assembly—but that is another debate for another time.

On the issue of 40:20, I recognise that there has to be a change and the most logical and easy one is to move to 30:30 in the mean time, using the 30 constituencies in Wales. However, I am not persuaded that the reduction in the number of seats to 30 will necessarily take place. If, as is very possible, the House of Lords Bill does not go through, particularly if the guillotine is not accepted—and the current mood among many Conservatives in the House of Commons is not to vote for the guillotine—there may have to be a deal where the Liberal Democrats would lose on the reduction of 650 to 600 and accept a delay on the implementation of the constituencies Bill and the Conservatives will say, “Well, House of Lords reform will go to another day”. If that is so, where are we left in respect of the consequential position in Wales if there is nothing to be consequential to? There is a strong case for not proceeding in haste on this but to see, if there is a deal struck and there is delay on the constituencies Bill, whether there is a case for not altering the status quo at this time.

A number of noble Lords have made the point that perhaps this Green Paper is not radical enough. The whole point of a Green Paper is that it sets out the stall and all the options. For example, it does not set out the possibility of having two Members per constituency in the Assembly, which I am not particularly wedded to but is worth looking at. That would be one means of having a gender balance. The gender balance is very good in the Assembly but it could be a means of institutionalising that. A whole series of more radical proposals could be looked at, which are worthy of debate, some of which I personally do not feel wedded to but at least could solve the gender balance institutionally. There are other, more radical things we could look at; for example, ways and means of having stronger checks and balances on the Welsh Government. The Green Paper is too timid.

On the length of term, the next general election is meant to be in 2015 and the next Assembly election in 2016. I am not a Chartist in favour of having elections every year, but there is an argument for shorter terms, particularly when there is not very much on the governmental side in Wales, to get closer to the people and give them the option of deciding on their representatives more frequently. There is also some merit in having cohabitation and a sort of creative tension between whatever party is in power at Westminster and the party in power at Cardiff. That is one thing that we need to look at.

On the question of the dual-hatting—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Double-jobbing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

I can see the arguments on both sides. In the 2003 Assembly election, I remember watching the televised results coming in and seeing the result in Llanelli, where the very able Helen Mary Jones was virtually in tears, having lost her seat. An hour later, she had sped down the road to Carmarthen and was rejoicing in the fact that she was elected after all. That is not very democratic. In many ways, I am sad that Nick Bourne lost his seat because he was a very able man, but that is democracy. We have to accept that at Westminster; why should we not accept in the Assembly that it is one of the hazards of political life to lose your seat? I did it in 1970, alas, and it taught me many lessons. But the point about the election in North Wales, where everyone who was defeated in the constituency got in by the back door, is that there is something not totally democratic about people who are defeated by the electorate rejoicing in being accepted by the electorate very shortly afterwards.

I have one quick final word to say on multiple mandates. When I first entered Parliament many years ago before the flood, many people in local government also sat in the Westminster Parliament. I fully accept that that is now impossible because of more pressure on Members of Parliament, including from their welfare role, and because there is more pressure on councillors. I am rather tempted by the concept frequently used in France of having a deputy mayor, whereby someone can be both a parliamentarian and mayor of his village. I would love to be mayor of, say, Llandaff and sit in Parliament. At least such an arrangement would, institutionally, provide an opportunity to listen to the folks at grassroots level and bring their views to Parliament. I agree that it is impossible for a man or woman to serve two masters—to be in both the Assembly and in an elected-Member Parliament. However, the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, is a prime example of how today and previously he can bring the views of the Assembly to Parliament. In the relevant paragraph of the Green Paper, something should surely have been said about the way in which this House can be used, even in the event of the House being reformed on an 80:20 basis. There is no reason why some of the 20 Members should not be drawn from the Assembly. They could bring the views of the Assembly to Westminster in a more direct way. I can see no objection in principle to that and I echo what many Members who have contributed in the debate have said about piecemeal reforms. Alas, we do our constitution in a very piecemeal way, and this Green Paper is but yet another example of that.

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[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, the primary consultation is about plugging the legal hole, but it is only fair to point out that when we agreed to extend this term of the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament to five years, I indicated from the Dispatch Box in the Chamber that we would consult on whether that should be a permanent arrangement. It seems an appropriate time to do that. Also, the issues of whether a person should be allowed to stand for the regional list and a constituency or whether there should be so-called double jobbing fit in neatly when a consultation is being undertaken.

Perhaps I may respond to a specific question put by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, about the discussions between my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales and Paul Silk. The terms of reference for the Silk commission, which were agreed by all the political parties in the Assembly, specifically exclude the Assembly’s electoral arrangements. It would not be appropriate to discuss with Paul Silk a matter that is not within the commission’s remit. However, it is the case that my right honourable friend has regular discussions with Paul Silk, as chairman of the commission, with regard to its progress.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

On the point of commitments, can the Minister tell us today what specific commitment was made to the First Minister by the Prime Minister in terms of consultation?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I have heard of that before today. I can confirm that the Prime Minister and the First Minister have met on a number of occasions and it is my belief that, among other matters, this issue has been discussed, but I am not aware of any firm commitment on the part of the Prime Minister. I know that the issue has been raised, but I am not aware of the nature of any firm commitment. I cannot go beyond that because it is not a matter within my knowledge. I am aware that the matter has been raised, but I am not aware of any commitment having been made.

Scotland: Independence

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Thursday 1st March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I am sure that almost everyone in your Lordships’ House would wish to remain part of the United Kingdom, and it might be useful if we all thought about that question. I believe not only that we each benefit economically from belonging to a wholly integrated market of 60 million but that in celebrating and promoting a shared heritage and shared cultural, social and fundamental political values, and defending them effectively in an uncertain world, we are simply better off together.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, yes, the polls show an overwhelming rejection of separatism, but does the Minister agree that if the union is to be fostered, and if we want to have a real case for it, more must be done in the spirit of solidarity to tackle the levels of comparative poverty in Wales and the poor health of the people of Wales? Greater investment must be made in infrastructure: for example, in the railway lines west of Cardiff to show that Wales does not end at Cardiff.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, something that came over strongly to those of us serving on the Calman commission was that one of the strengths of the United Kingdom was not only its pooling of resources but its ensuring that, where parts of the United Kingdom are doing less well, we are able to address them because we have the strength of being part of one united kingdom.

EU Committee: Court of Justice of the European Union

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, I adopt all the calls that have been made for clarity on the part of the Government in response to this report and to the problems of the Court of Justice. I was not a member of the relevant committee at the time of this report so I can praise the work of the committee in producing it, and I can praise the work of the chairman and indeed the clarity of the speech he made today.

It is clear that everyone agrees that European courts, both the Luxembourg courts—the Court of Justice and particularly the General Court—and the Strasbourg court, the European Court of Human Rights, are overloaded. I need not go into the position of the Strasbourg court, but there are 160,000 cases pending and the numbers are increasing annually at a rate of 12.5 per cent. There is of course now a linkage between the Luxembourg court and the Strasbourg court, with the EU becoming a party to the European Convention on Human Rights, and there is therefore a danger of possible further delays.

The Government may be reluctant to call the position of the Court of Justice a crisis, but there is clearly a major problem of delays, as the CBI pointed out, which are relevant to our business, and therefore something has to change. Even if the intellectual property cases were shunted into a separate court, that would still leave a backlog of 1,000 cases before the General Court, where much of the work is of course consideration of fact. That is roughly two years’ work if one sees that perhaps 500 cases are concluded in a year.

What, then, to do? The editorial in the most recent edition of the Common Market Law Review, which again is a tribute to the committee’s work, stated as follows:

“It would seem that by now, all the possible options for reform and their respective pros and cons have been on the table several times … a big leap seems inescapable. It is only a matter of time”.

The Government thus far seem to want to avoid a big leap. Their proposed changes range from: reducing the supply of cases; changes to the rules of procedure—and the Government state that there is little prospect of member states agreeing to a degree of autonomy of the Court in respect of its own procedures; broader, better case management; more new specialist courts; and the appointment of more judges.

Clearly there is a need to look at procedures; the editorial states that essentially the procedures of the court reflect the Court’s role as an administrative court carrying out judicial review in respect of the activities of member states, when increasingly now the emphasis has changed to references from member states for preliminary rulings.

The Government appear to oppose limits on pleadings to cut down more prolix advocates, and the Court’s potential powers to dispense with oral hearings. As one of our colleagues said earlier, we know what the Government are against; we do not know what the Government are for. The Government are surely not just outside observers but should be active participants in these debates.

There must surely be some scope, despite what the committee says, for a reduction in translation. French is of course the working language, for understandable reasons of history, but increasingly the new member states have English as their main working language. Alas, there is clearly a veto possible for the French Government, so we cannot see much change there.

Changes in the structure of the Court have helped in the past. In 2005 the Civil Service Tribunal was established, and the committee calls it a success story. Some 30 years or so ago I was writing the section on the European courts in The Solicitors’ Diary, and it was clear at that time that there was too much able judge power on cases that were relatively trivial, save for the individuals concerned, and that would have gone to employment tribunals in the UK. That was 30 years ago. It took all that time to set up this specialist court, which perhaps does not augur well for changes to come about in a timely fashion.

The case against further specialist tribunals and in favour of an increase in the number of judges is set out persuasively in the letter of the president of the Court to the president of the Council: that there are risks in relation to consistency, the flexibility of judge power, the speed of implementation and so on. The letter states that an increase in the number of judges in the General Court is,

“essential … to reduce within a short time the volume of cases pending before the court and the duration of proceedings”.

If it is true that it could be solved in only a short time, one must ask why the large increase from 27 to 39 should be permanent, and what the prospects are of a reduction in the future if the case load were to warrant it.

There is clearly now a conflict between the views of a number of member states and the president of the Court. This is a matter of judgment in respect of both the costs and the efficient running of the courts. There is probably no prospect now of an outside independent expert being asked to report on the comparative costs, as this would only lead to further delay.

However, I end where a number of colleagues have ended. It is uncertain where Her Majesty’s Government stand, so perhaps the Minister will clarify for us on which side the Government stand. Are the Government leaning towards more specialist tribunals, with all the problems set out by the president, or do they now accept the case for an increase in the number of judges in the General Court?

[Lord Bowness]

My Lords, I must apologise to the House that in asking my question I failed to draw attention to my declared interests as a practising solicitor, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, for allowing me now so to do.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Lord Anderson of Swansea Excerpts

Tuesday 29th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

For examples of greater accountability, we do not need to look at the textbooks. We have a living example in the recent election in Australia, where the two major groups had 72 seats. There were four other seats and there was very much an auction as to how the votes of those four people would be bought, which was pretty unseemly and certainly not accountable.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

I am afraid it was all too transparent and not satisfactory by any manner of means. My noble friend always brings his international perspective to bear most valuably on our debates. Clause 2(2)(b), as it is drafted, provides no remedy for the deficiencies that the Deputy Prime Minister so eloquently described.

Why 14 days in particular? What is the rationale for that figure? It would be helpful if the Government explained why they think that 14 days is the right amount of time to allow these processes to continue. It is inconsistent with what Parliament has provided for the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly, where the equivalent provisions allow for 28 days. Of course, they have different electoral systems that make it unlikely that any single party will have an overall majority. It might be argued that more time is needed, but in all events I would like to know why 14 days are thought sufficient for the Parliament of the United Kingdom, whereas 28 days are provided for the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly.

Beyond that, we also ought to ask: why legislate at all? Convention and practice are to allow an attempt to negotiate a coalition or a pact—a confidence and supply agreement or whatever—over an unspecified period of time. Precedent has shown that it need not take very long. There were three days of such discussions between the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party in March 1974, and five days in May 2010. Why is it necessary to legislate to allow up to 14 days for this kind of haggling and negotiation?

I do not think that what is provided in the Bill would produce any improvement. It could make things worse in our politics and our constitution. What I do know is that, during that period of 14 days, there would be no effective government and the country would be uncertain as to whether there was to be a general election. The reputation of Parliament or of politics would not be enhanced by this kind of process. Accountability would be weakened. Is it not better to stick to the understanding that we have: that if a Government are defeated on a vote of no confidence they call it a day and resign or go to the country? That would better fulfil the Deputy Prime Minister’s pledge to improve accountability. It is better that the electors, and not the political parties, decide who will form a Government. Governments are of course accountable both to Parliament and to the people, but accountability to the people should prevail. I beg to move.