Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eighth sitting)

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way when he was making such a compelling argument. I am also very grateful to hear him speaking so positively of the Scottish Government. He is almost doing my job for me, so I will not seek to speak on the amendment. I want to make it clear to him that I will not support the amendment and new clause purely because they do not impact on Scotland. That says absolutely nothing about my interest in the principles of what he is setting out.

[Bob Blackman]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. I am always willing to praise people who do the right thing. Unfortunately the SNP Government do not always do the right thing, as many of us know.

Extending the requirements for Scotland to the rest of the United Kingdom is supported by the vast majority of the general public and of retailers surveyed by ASH in 2024. To quote John McClurey, a retired tobacco retailer from Newcastle who, during his 39 years as a small shop owner, successfully implemented the increase in the age of sale from 16 to 18, putting tobacco out of sight in his shops and introducing standardised packaging of tobacco products:

“Like the communities they serve, retailers support creating a smokefree generation by raising the age of sale one year every year from 2027 onwards. However, I know from experience it will be easier for retailers to implement if age verification was required from anyone trying to buy tobacco who appeared to be underage. This won’t apply to existing adult social smokers only to those who look as though they were born after 2008. It’s popular with the public as well as with retailers and it will be a legal requirement in Scotland, so why not the whole of the UK?”

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[Kirsten Oswald]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

As Members can see, new clause 9 seeks to stamp out the advertising of vape products in sports. We can all—or perhaps just those who spend more time than we should watching football—think back to days in the past when our favourite football teams ran about the park with cigarettes advertised on their shirts. We would find that quite unthinkable now; it would just be unacceptable. Similarly, we would find it unacceptable if our sports stadiums were named after tobacco companies or cigarette brands, but it is still possible—in fact, it is happening—that sports kits and sports grounds are sponsored by vape companies. I cannot think that should be acceptable when we look at the comparators, and I do not think sports is an appropriate place for vape advertising.

In the evidence sessions, experts told us about the deeply challenging impact on young people of vapes and vaping. We know that it impacts on their education as well as on their health. We heard this morning in the recent statistics from ASH that a very significant proportion of our young people are vaping. We need to deal with that. The vast majority of those young people have never been smokers, so this is not vaping for the purposes of smoking cessation, but a new addiction that has taken hold. It is our responsibility to try to deal with that. We will have to deal with it while being aware of the incredible and fast-moving marketing and product development that the industry has shown it is all too capable of bringing to bear. We also heard from the chief medical officers, who were uniformly keen that sports should be a positive influence. Anyone can go back and read the transcripts to see how they variously described it, but that was certainly the order of the day.

Smoking cessation is important, and smoking cessation and sport are things that can be positively connected, but that is very much not what is happening. We need to be clear that young people are seeing sports and vaping together, when we really should be taking steps to prevent young people who have never smoked from seeing vaping as something they may want to do. I have heard others say that now is not the time to do this—that we should not use this Bill. I have to say that yes, this is absolutely the time for us to do it. If it is not this Bill, then I really begin to wonder what on earth would be the vehicle for us to take this step. This is the time.

People may be fed up of me speaking about this—I am almost fed up of me speaking about this. I have spoken about this for years, on and on and on, but I am going to keep speaking about it until it is fixed. I want the Committee to think carefully about it. I am sure Committee members may have noticed that, through whatever stroke of good luck, I have had the first question in the last two Prime Minister’s questions, and I have asked the Prime Minister to think very carefully about this issue. It is something that is very important for all of us in this place to do. I hope we are now getting to the point where we agree that it is time for us to act, that this is the vehicle where action is best placed and that we should put a stop to vape advertising in sports, once and for all.

[Bob Blackman]

I thank the hon. Lady for tabling the new clause. We will come to further new clauses that deal with advertising for vaping products. We are clearly now in the position whereby if anyone suggested that football teams should have tobacco advertising on their shirts, they would be laughed out of court. That is equally true in all the other circumstances that the hon. Lady described.

I have a lot of sympathy with this proposal, but I am slightly concerned that it is limited to particular sporting events. In my view, we need a comprehensive ban on the promotion of vaping products. When the chief medical officer gave evidence to the Committee, he rightly said that if you smoke, it is safer to vape, but do not take up vaping. We should not be allowing vaping companies to advertise their wares, particularly to younger people. As I said this morning, 7.6% of young people aged 11 to 17 are regularly vaping. That is a serious concern, because they will be addicted to nicotine and will probably have to escalate their nicotine demand as time goes on.

My concern is that the new clause does not go far enough. The hon. Lady has raised the issue on several occasions, and is rightly banging the drum. I agree with her: it is a disgrace. I think I am right in saying that Blackburn Rovers football club just agreed a sponsorship deal for their shirts with a vaping product, which is a great shame, but it has chosen to do that.

The chief medical officer also said that, right now, the vaping industry does not have a product that doctors could prescribe to help people to quit smoking. That is a challenge for the industry. If it is serious about encouraging people to quit smoking, it needs to develop a product that doctors can prescribe and help people to quit smoking. If it is not going to develop that product, that demonstrates that all it is trying to do is to hook people on to nicotine.

[Kirsten Oswald]

The hon. Gentleman is generous in taking my interventions. I am not entirely sure that these two things are totally connected. He is quite right that the vaping industry has questions to answer, but I do not think that has anything at all to do with whether it should be okay to advertise vaping companies and vaping products on football shirts, on sports stadiums or in any other way that is proximate to sport. We need to be clear that this practice specifically needs to be stamped out. On the questions the vaping industry has to answer, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman and I have the same ones; we can crack on and get them answered, but let us not not do this.

[Bob Blackman]

I have a lot of sympathy with what the hon. Lady asks for. I ask my right hon. Friend the Minister, in dealing with this new clause and the other new clauses about advertising, to go away and come up with a comprehensive series of amendments that will ban advertising for vaping products in their entirety—not just in sports stadiums and not just on sports shirts, but comprehensively, right across the piece. We can then all support that and make sure we deliver it in the Bill.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I thank the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire for tabling the new clause. We absolutely share her concern: we must ensure that children are not exposed to marketing and branding that encourages them to vape. I echo the comments of the chief medical officer: if you do not smoke, do not vape. These are not products for children, and we are determined to crack down on companies trying to addict a new generation to nicotine. The principle that the hon. Lady has raised is really important, which is exactly why the previous Labour Government legislated to end sponsorship by tobacco companies.

Although sponsorship for vapes is not prohibited outright, as it is for tobacco, there are clear restrictions on how vapes and nicotine products can be marketed at and advertised to children. For example, the 2016 regulations prohibit e-cigarette product placement or any sponsorship promoting e-cigarettes on radio and TV programmes, where they are most likely to be widely seen. Most crucially, they ban ads for nicotine-containing vapes from most online media, including social media. The very limited exception to that is factual, not promotional, claims on companies’ own websites.

Why has the Minister not aligned the legislation in this respect with the extension of other regulations that we have discussed in Committee? Elsewhere, non-nicotine vapes and other nicotine products are essentially treated under the same regulations as those that affect nicotine vapes.

I again thank the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire for sharing her concerns, which I fully appreciate. I hope the Minister takes this proposal away and looks at it more closely. The restrictions on broadcast sponsorship aside, I would have expected her to be able to share more comprehensive data from the regulators showing what children are being exposed to and where. Will she address that head on and write to us with more detail if she needs to? In the meantime, my greatest concern remains promotions in store and on social media.

[Kirsten Oswald]

The hon. Lady says that Labour is determined to crack down; well, here is her opportunity. She is not cracking down if she does not deal with this issue. She says there are clear restrictions on how these products can be advertised or marketed to children, but children can see football strips and sports stadiums. I do not know about anybody else’s children, but mine watch football on the television, and they can see what is advertised on football strips. I would like her to take that thought away with her.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention, but as I said my greatest concern remains promotions in store and on social media, because that is where lots of young people consume this information. My view is that we need to get on with cracking down on the companies that deliberately sell these products to children in the first place.

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However, I am mindful of the Committee’s clear desire for the rules on advertising and sponsorship to be equally strong for both tobacco and vapes. Building on the stringent restrictions already in place, I commit right now to explore formal steps we can take to further restrict vape advertising and sponsorship, in line with the spirit of new clause 9 and the others I just mentioned. I will revert with further updates on proposals on Report and Third Reading in the Chamber. With that, I hope that the hon. Lady does not wish to push her new clause to a vote.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am grateful to the Minister for what she said. I am not unsympathetic to how she has set out her logic, but I would be more comfortable if there was something more than a commitment to explore formal steps to impose further restrictions. What does that mean? I do not know whether the Minister is able to tell me or whether it is in order for me to ask. I want it banned. [Hon. Members: “We all do.”] I want it banned in the field of sports, and I am open to it being banned in all the other fields that have been mentioned. Committing to explore formal steps to further restrict it seems slightly less than certain to me. Is the Minister able to give me a little more certainty? I would be happy to withdraw the new clause if I were certain that it was going to be contained in a Government amendment, for instance. I just want to make sure that the issue is dealt with once and for all.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I would like to give the hon. Lady the reassurance that I will be coming forward with proposals from the Government to address the issues that have been raised.

[Kirsten Oswald]

On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 11

Testing of samples of nicotine-containing e-cigarette products

“(1) Regulation 36 of the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 is amended as follows.

(2) At end insert—

‘(12) The Secretary of State may—

(a) approve and monitor one or more laboratories (“approved laboratories”) which must not be owned or controlled directly or indirectly by the tobacco or e-cigarette industry; and

(b) arrange for an approved laboratory to verify the product requirements referred to in this regulation.

(13) For the purposes of enabling the Secretary of State to perform functions under paragraph (11)(b), a person who produces e-cigarettes or nicotine-containing liquids, or manufactures e-cigarettes or nicotine-containing liquids for export must provide to the Secretary of State (or to such person as the Secretary of State may specify) such samples, at such times and intervals and from such sources, as the Secretary of State may reasonably require.’

(3) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision that is consequential on this section.”—(Preet Kaur Gill.)

This new clause enables the Secretary of State to approve laboratories for the purpose of testing product requirements of nicotine-containing vaping products set by the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 and to require manufacturers to provide samples for testing.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting)

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Preet Kaur Gill]

This is, of course, an extremely important part of the Bill, as it defines many of the terms used in it. We know how adept the industry has become at worming its way around the spirit of regulations that Parliament has debated and agreed in the past. The ban on menthol cigarettes is one example. The clause sets out a series of definitions of what is covered by various terms that we have been using, such as “herbal smoking products”, “retail packaging” and “cigarette papers”. It is very important.

We know, and I think we should expect, that the industry will innovate in response to this legislation, and not necessarily in helpful ways. We must ensure that the wording of the definitions we use is specific enough not to have unintended consequences, but broad enough that we do not allow industry to get around them.

I appreciate that this is all tricky, but I have a few quick comments. I mentioned when we debated clause 11 that there is no definition of “retailer” in the Bill, and my concern related to vending machines. Can the Minister please provide clarity on which powers granted under this Bill enable Government to regulate vending machines for vapes and other nicotine products, if that was deemed necessary? If she cannot answer now, can she please write to me on that?

I also want to raise the issue of accessories. I mentioned the ban on menthol cigarettes introduced in 2020, which was no doubt a cautionary tale for us in ensuring that we give careful thought to designing regulations on flavoured vapes. A study published in the journal Tobacco Control, and part-funded by Cancer Research UK, surveyed 66,000 adults in England, Wales and Scotland from October 2020—five months after the menthol ban was introduced—to March 2023. It found that the number of adult smokers who reported using menthol-flavoured cigarettes at the start of the study period stayed stable at 14%, compared with 16% two and half years earlier. That may simply indicate the size of the illicit market, but the survey also found that only 15% of those who smoked menthol-flavoured cigarettes reported buying from illicit sources, such as under the counter: a proportion similar to those who smoked non-flavoured cigarettes. That instead suggests that the tobacco industry has quite adept legal loopholes to circumvent the ban.

Researchers think that that indicated that people are using legal accessories, including menthol-flavoured drops, filter balls or cards, or that they are purchasing cigarettes perceived to contain menthol flavouring without it being labelled as such. We will come back to the issue of defining flavours and those specific loopholes in other clauses, but I want to ask here about accessories such as drops, flavour cards and so on. I have looked up those products online and they are blatantly marketed for use with cigarettes—we can buy 25 packs of “rizla menthol extreme infusion flavour cards” for £9 on Amazon.

What lessons have the Government learned from that? They were meant to publish a review of the legislation in 2021, but as far as I am aware, they did not. Have the Government looked at an expanded definition of tobacco products that would include accessories? If it is appropriate to look at something more narrow and targeted in its scope, would the Minister consider specifically looking at clause 59 on the flavour of tobacco products? Expanding the regulation-making powers to include tobacco-related products and accessories would enable regulations to be designed to capture menthol flavourings and all its derivatives and analogues, including add-on accessories to cigarettes to mask the taste of tobacco. I appreciate that the Minister has until now said that we should not let perfect be the enemy of good, but that is quite a crucial issue.

First, as I mentioned, the Government already promised to review that a few years ago, so I hope that they have a considered response to those questions either way. Secondly, the same principles apply to the flavours of vapes. With the disposable bans, consumers are effectively being encouraged to assemble their devices themselves to reduce waste. If we do not think carefully about the issue of accessories, I am concerned that we will see similar workarounds in that market too, which will undermine the efficacy of the legislation. If the Minister does not have the information to hand, could she please write to me on that?

Clause 35 provides a definition of “nicotine product” that, as we have heard, captures things that are not vapes or tobacco products, and could include things such as nicotine pouches. In the national conversation about vapes, we could easily see how more unscrupulous companies that have been marketing to children would look to pivot to other products if we do not capture them with this Bill and the regulations that it allows for.

I reiterate my earlier question to ensure that the Minister takes it away. Given the inclusion of that definition of “nicotine product” in the Bill, where does she see it necessary for the Government to introduce further regulation of those products—for example, whether they should be included in a notification process or something similar? We of course support those powers and I think the Committee agree on that, but I am keen to understand how advanced her and the Government’s thinking is on this.

Finally, clause 36 amends the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002, which was brought in under the Labour Government. That seems eminently sensible and I support it. While we are on the subject, the Minister mentioned in the first line-by-line debate that she has recently written to the Advertising Standards Authority about its work and the trends it is seeing. I would be very interested in seeing its response and I would be grateful if the Minister could share that with me too.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

I am not going to reiterate the points made by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston, but I want to add my voice to those who are very concerned about ensuring that the Bill takes full account of all the different products. During the course of the last few days of debate, we have heard about the large number of different products out there. I think it is profoundly important that we do all we can to try to look to the future and ensure that there are as few loopholes as possible for the tobacco and vaping companies to take advantage of.

As we have heard, they are very able and enthusiastic about doing so. I am keen to hear the Minister’s thoughts on whether the clause does enough, or whether she shares my concern that there are things we cannot conceive of yet that will be in the minds of those companies. As we consider the Bill, we need to ensure that we are not leaving gaps that will be rapidly filled by products that will harm people, particularly young people.

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[Preet Kaur Gill]

I turn to part 2 of the Bill and some of the clauses that apply specifically to Scotland. As the Minister mentioned, Scotland has a proud history of leading on many tobacco control methods, including beating the rest of the UK in introducing regulations to prohibit smoking in enclosed public spaces in 2005. That was the crowning achievement of a proud public health legacy left by the last Labour Governments in Westminster and in Holyrood. I am pleased to see the constructive attitude taken by the Scottish Government to the Bill to avoid any unnecessary regulatory divergence and to offer more certainty for business and consistency for consumers.

Clause 39, as the Minister has said, relates to the repeal of section 5 of the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010, which made it an offence for someone under the age of 18 to buy or attempt to buy a tobacco product or cigarette papers. As I mentioned in the first sitting, the correct approach is to focus the enforcement of the law on the retailer, not the purchaser. Established businesses should be expected to take a greater degree of responsibility than children, and the law should reflect that. It should be our priority to help children addicted to nicotine, rather than penalise them.

Moreover, I take the Minister’s point that this change will make the law easier to interpret and enforce. Where possible, we do not want to diffuse responsibilities between retailers and customers, or indeed the enforcement authorities that attend to them. I am satisfied that if we have strong and consistent enforcement of the responsibility of retailers to implement age of sale law, that would achieve the same outcomes that the 2010 Act intended.

[Kirsten Oswald]

As we have heard, part 2 of the Bill relates specifically to Scotland and clauses 39 and 40 repeal particular offences. Clause 39 repeals an offence unique to Scotland—the purchasing of tobacco products by under-18s. That was introduced in 2010 and has been criticised for some time because of the unnecessary criminalisation of young people with a nicotine addiction. The change has been requested by the Scottish Government. Clause 40 repeals the power of the police to confiscate tobacco products from people who they suspect are under 18. Again, the power is unique to Scotland and it is seen as difficult to use. I therefore welcome these clauses as they stand.

It is correct to say that Scotland has been a world leader on a range of tobacco control measures, and there has been a steady reduction in the proportion of people smoking, but we know that far too many lives are still damaged and far too many people are still killed by tobacco. Obviously, we are aware of the huge burden on the NHS and social care services, and we know about the significant health inequalities that underlie much of that. Clauses 39 and 40 are sensible because they allow operations on the ground in Scotland to move forward in a more unified and logical manner. We welcome the new age regime and the greater power for Scottish Ministers to tackle youth smoking and vaping.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 39 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 40 to 45 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 46

Alignment of definitions

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

This clause amends definitions in the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010 for tobacco products and nicotine vapour products to align them with the definitions in the Bill. The clause amends the definition of “tobacco product” in Scottish legislation to align it with the definition in the Bill. All tobacco products are harmful to health, so this definition will ensure that any future, novel tobacco products are captured by the legislation. The clause also amends Scotland’s definition of a nicotine vapour product to state that “‘vapour’ includes aerosol”, so that the definition more closely aligns with that of “vape” in the Bill. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

I thank the Minister for that explanation. We support the clause, which broadens the definition of “tobacco product” in Scottish legislation and seeks to align that definition with legislation in the rest of the United Kingdom, and clarifies that the definition of nicotine vapour products specifically includes aerosols.

Above all, we support the principle that there should be clear and consistent definitions of the products that we seek to capture in regulations under the Bill across all four nations of the United Kingdom. I will take this opportunity to mention my query about the definitions that we use to capture tobacco-related products and accessories, particularly products used to augment the flavour of tobacco products, but we are happy to support the clause.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I reiterate the comments about the importance of setting out the definitions here so that there is clarity on the products where that is needed, including on new products that arrive in the market. I support the clause.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 46 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 47

Power to make consequential provision

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

The clause confers a power on Scottish Ministers to make provision that is consequential on part 2 of the Bill. Regulations may amend, repeal or revoke any legislation passed before the Bill or later in the same Session of Parliament as the Bill, as well as any Act of the Scottish Parliament passed before the Bill. Regulations may amend primary legislation as well as secondary legislation.

Although every effort has been made to identify and make provision for any required amendments to primary legislation, the Bill brings together legislation that has been made over the last century, so there is a small likelihood that further consequential amendments may be required to enable the Bill to function effectively. It is therefore appropriate that Scottish Ministers have the power to make such changes to devolved legislation via secondary legislation. Any regulations amending primary legislation will be subject to the affirmative procedure. I therefore commend the clause to the Committee.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

We are happy to support this clause, which gives Scottish Ministers powers to make consequential amendments to this part of the Bill. Scotland has a proud history of leading the way on tobacco control and putting public health before corporate profit. It brought in the indoor smoking ban before the UK-wide one was introduced nearly 20 years ago. This week, we marked 25 years of the Scottish Parliament—a proud legacy of the previous Labour Government—and the principle of pushing power closer to communities so that Scottish solutions can be found to Scottish problems remains as strong as ever.

[Kirsten Oswald]

The clause very much reflects the constructive work underlying many clauses in the Bill. It includes several measures that the Scottish Government pushed for, and gives proper differentiated treatment to the separate Governments across the United Kingdom.

Clause 47 gives Scottish Ministers the broad power by regulations to make provision consequential on part 2 of the Bill—the bit that directly relates to Scotland. That is important, because this issue causes difficulties across the whole UK. If the Bill is passed, the Scottish Government will consider how best to use these powers, with the consent of the Scottish Parliament, to benefit public health, and will look to avoid any unnecessary regulatory divergence. That will be helpful for those who seek to prevent harms. The Scottish Government were the first Government to commit to taking action on single-use vapes, and have now launched a legislative consent memorandum in the Scottish Parliament recommending that the Parliament give its consent to the Bill.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I put on the record my thanks to Scottish Ministers for their collaborative approach to bringing together the Bill. I am extremely grateful to them for ensuring that it is a UK-wide piece of legislation.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 47 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 48 to 51 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 52

Power to restrict nicotine products offence to sale by retail

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

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[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I will share my thinking, because this is important. We are all on the same side where the Bill is concerned, and I say very genuinely to hon. Members that there is an important debate about flavours. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston says that we should scrap menthol, but the problem is that if we scrap menthol it will be reimagined as “raspberry mint crush”—it will still be menthol, but simply reimagined. That is the perfect example of how people can get round the legislation by calling it something else—something even more appealing to children.

The idea of tackling the issue in secondary legislation is to ensure that we stay ahead of the industry at all times. I understand the desire to put things in the Bill, but I hope all hon. Members recognise that there are also weaknesses associated with something which, if we are to change it, requires primary legislation to do so.

Clause 59 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 60 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 61

Retail packaging of vaping products and nicotine products

[Kirsten Oswald]

I beg to move amendment 26, in clause 61, page 33, line 19, at end insert—

“(l) the use of fonts in any alphanumeric markings on the packaging.”

This amendment would allow the Secretary of State to make regulations about the font used on the retail packaging of vaping products and nicotine products.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 39, in clause 61, page 33, line 37, at end insert—

“(7) Before making regulations under this section the Secretary of State must—

(a) consider whether there are any persons who appear to be representative of the interests of those likely to have an interest in the regulations, and

(b) if there are, to take reasonable steps to consult them.”

Clause stand part.

Amendment 40, in clause 62, page 34, line 27, at end insert—

“(7) Before making regulations under this section the Secretary of State must—

(a) consider whether there are any persons who appear to be representative of the interests of those likely to have an interest in the regulations, and

(b) if there are, to take reasonable steps to consult them.”

Amendment 21, in clause 63, page 34, line 36, leave out from “products” in the second place it occurs to the end of line 37 and insert—

“(g) any other features of vaping products or nicotine products.”

This amendment allows for changes to other features of vaping or nicotine products as set out in the TRPR 2016 section 36 which do not distinguish between different brands such as capacity of refills, cartridges or pods, and nicotine delivery.

Amendment 41, in clause 63, page 35, line 20, at end insert—

“(6) Before making regulations under this section the Secretary of State must—

(a) consider whether there are any persons who appear to be representative of the interests of those likely to have an interest in the regulations, and

(b) if there are, to take reasonable steps to consult them.”

Clause 63 stand part.

Amendment 42, in clause 71, page 39, line 29, at end insert—

“(6) Before making regulations under this section the Secretary of State must—

(a) consider whether there are any persons who appear to be representative of the interests of those likely to have an interest in the regulations, and

(b) if there are, to take reasonable steps to consult them.”

Amendment 43, in clause 72, page 39, line 38, at end insert—

“(4) Before making regulations under this section the Secretary of State must—

(a) consider whether there are any persons who appear to be representative of the interests of those likely to have an interest in the regulations, and

(b) if there are, to take reasonable steps to consult them.”

Amendment 44, in clause 73, page 40, line 16, at end insert—

“(5) Before making regulations under this section the Secretary of State must—

(a) consider whether there are any persons who appear to be representative of the interests of those likely to have an interest in the regulations, and

(b) if there are, to take reasonable steps to consult them.”

New clause 10—Power to change product requirements of vaping and nicotine products—

“(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations amend regulations 36 and 38 of the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016.

(2) Regulations under this section—

(a) shall be made by statutory instrument; and

(b) may not be made unless a draft has been laid before and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament.”

This new clause enables the Secretary of State to amend sections 36 and 38 of the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 related to general product requirements of vaping and nicotine products.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am happy to speak to amendment 26, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham, as a signatory to the amendment. The amendment seeks to deal with the use of fonts in any alphanumeric markings on the packaging. That would allow the Secretary of State to make regulations about the font used on the retail packaging of vaping and nicotine products.

The logic behind the amendment is that it would allow the Secretary of State to preclude vape companies from getting round the ugly packaging requirements by choosing an attractive or distinguishable font. The amendment provides helpful clarity. I appreciate that there is probably an ability to make provision on fonts in the Bill, but I am not sure that “probably” is good enough. The Committee has spoken about the need to try and stay ahead of the game when it comes to the companies, which are fleet of foot when trying to find ways of stopping us preventing the harms we are seeking to prevent.

[Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

I want to speak to my amendments to clauses 61, 62 and 63, which are all in a similar vein. My amendments would bind any Government to considering whether there are people who have an interest in future regulations on vaping packaging, and if so, to consult them. The point of the amendments is consultation, which would include all stakeholders with an interest—not just the industry but those who use vaping products to help them stop smoking. While the Government and the Minister have committed to that for the first round of regulation, there is no requirement for a future Government to do so.

My amendments 62 and 63 would require the Government to consult before implementing regulations. I will not press them to a Division, but I hope that the Minister, as she said she would last week, will consider and take away everything that is being suggested. I make the plea on behalf of the industry. The vaping industry takes very seriously the notion that children should not be allowed to vape, and that every precaution should be taken to ensure that children do not vape and that vapes are used as a tool to stop smoking. I say that as a member of the responsible vaping all-party group. I have followed this for many years, and am an advocate of vaping as a tool to stop smoking. I repeat that I will not press my amendments to a vote.

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[Bob Blackman]

I rise in support of clause 62, noting the two amendments proposed by a Member not on the Committee that would have removed the power of the Secretary of State to deal with flavours. I consider it vital that the Secretary of State can make regulations about flavours of vaping products and nicotine products. As has been said, this is a much-needed power to help curb youth vaping.

The chief medical officer Sir Chris Whitty spoke very strongly when giving evidence to the Committee. He said:

“We are strongly supportive of Ministers in all four nations having the power to regulate flavours…We know that otherwise the vape industry will use this to essentially drive a coach and horses through the aims of the Bill, which is to make products less attractive to children”.––[Official Report, Tobacco and Vapes Public Bill Committee, 1 May 2024; c. 74, Q103.]

Indeed, literally overnight Action on Smoking and Health has published data showing that youth vaping has stabilised. That is the good news. The bad news is that 7.6% of 11 to 17-year-olds regularly vape. That is above the pre-pandemic level of 4.4%, so it has almost doubled since then. Young people are being encouraged to become addicted to vaping and will potentially go on to even more harmful products.

Exposure to marketing is also up. Some 55% of young people are exposed to vaping in shops, where vapes are on full display, and nearly a third are exposed to vaping online, so we need to take action. The measures in the Bill, particularly in this clause, will make starting to vape far less attractive to young people. That is why it is essential that it remains part of the Bill. I hope that as the Bill progresses we can resist further proposals that might seek to remove this measure from the Bill.

[Kirsten Oswald]

The clause is important. We have had discussions here and listened to experts in numerous sessions, which should give us a real opportunity to pause and consider why the measure is necessary. We know the incredible damage that smoking does to far too many lives and the importance of assisting people to stop smoking. Vaping can certainly be an important and helpful part of smoking cessation—that must be acknowledged.

I find it difficult, though, to imagine that many people successfully stop smoking by using a hot pink disposable pocket-money costing vape in “candy floss unicorn” flavour. That is not what those are for nor what they are aimed at. Action to deal with flavourings, as well as names and descriptions and so on, is essential. We are more than able to deal with smoking cessation and the importance of supporting that at the same time as dealing with the harms of vaping. I would be interested if the Minister could tell us about lessons from elsewhere about how that has successfully been done.

It is important to reiterate the significant numbers of youths who vape: 7.6% of 11 to 17-year-olds currently vape. That is not those who have tried vaping. For those who have tried vaping, the numbers are significantly higher and they are absolutely targeted by marketing. Even those numbers—which, as the mother of teenagers, certainly will give me further grey hair—are partly because of the exposure to marketing. We know that wherever we are and whichever shop we go into, we see attractive displays of vapes, and the flavours are a part of those displays. More than half of young people have felt exposed to that kind of marketing in shops, and nearly a third online. The Minister will not be surprised to hear me remind the Committee that people are also exposed to the advertising when they go to watch their favourite sports teams. That is wholly unacceptable and indefensible.

I support the clause, although I think more could be done, but that will come up in our later conversations.

[Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab)]

I want to speak briefly in support of the clause. I am frustrated that we would need yet more consultation when there is an awful lot of evidence to support prohibiting the tactics, branding and sweet flavourings. Indeed, that was recommended by the Khan review. I am frustrated that I tabled an amendment to this effect in 2021. If it had been passed instead of being voted down by the Government, fewer children would be addicted to nicotine now.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifth sitting)

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 9th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

As the Bill goes through its passage, I will raise specific issues where I believe it can be improved, but I want to start on a very positive note by saying that this is the kind of legislation we need to ensure that our young people growing up today know that smoking kills, and this legislation will save their lives.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

I, too, welcome the provisions in the Bill and the contributions that have been made so far from both sides of the House. It is very important that we have a collective voice on this, wherever possible. We know that smoking is a leading cause of preventable death in Scotland and the rest of the UK. In 2022, smoking accounted for an estimated 8,942 deaths of those aged 35 and above in Scotland. We have also heard about the significant impact that smoking has on those who are already suffering from inequality and are in the most disadvantaged situations in our community.

The work on the Bill has been constructive, and it contains a number of measures pushed for by the Scottish Government; of course, part 2 specifically relates to Scotland. Jenni Minto, the Scottish Public Health Minister, has spoken positively about how Scotland has dealt with tobacco control measures, being a world leader. Although we know that there has been a reduction in the proportion of people smoking, it is still damaging far too many lives and killing too many people. We heard about the huge damage to the capacity of our NHS because of the difficulties caused by smoking, and the damage to people’s lives.

Scotland has long led the UK on tobacco control. We in the SNP really welcome this collaborative step towards creating a smoke-free generation. As the first UK nation to introduce an indoor smoking ban, and having led on the overhaul of tobacco sale and display law, we can clearly see the important steps we are taking and the significant, positive impact on public health that is possible. We support the new age regime and the greater powers for Scottish Ministers to tackle youth smoking and vaping. It would be very helpful to hear further about how it is anticipated that the powers will be used. We need to make sure that this works in practice.

I close by reflecting what others have said about the uniquely lethal and addictive nature of smoking, and the far-reaching problems it causes in people’s lives. We need to take whatever steps we can to prevent this addiction—so enthusiastically encouraged by the marketing teams of these industries—from taking hold in the first place. It is really important that we take all the steps available to us while we have this unique opportunity. We need to look at closing some small gaps, which I am sure we will discuss further. I would be very happy to hear from the Government Front Bench team about sponsorship, which is an interest of mine in terms of vapes, but I hope that we can make constructive progress on making this Bill a reality.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I appreciate the clear cross-party support for the measures in the Bill. I understand that hon. Members will have views on ways to amend or strengthen it, but I urge the Committee to appreciate how little time we have. As we heard clearly from last week’s evidence sessions—from the chief medical officers from all parts of the United Kingdom and from so many medical professionals—this is a very good Bill, so let us not make the perfect the enemy of the good. Let us get this through.

I very much appreciate the welcome of all colleagues, and I assure them all that I will take away any suggestions and requests and come back with clear answers. Where something is relatively simple to do, we will seek to do that, but equally, as Members will appreciate, it is not always possible to accept every suggestion, no matter how well-meaning—and I absolutely accept that, in this Bill, it is always well-meaning.

I will answer the points that hon. Members specifically raised. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston asked about how we will encourage young people to quit smoking at an early stage. She will be aware that there are lots of measures to try to help people to stop, including the financial incentives that we are providing, particularly for those expecting a baby and their partners. There are also the quit aids to help people to swap to stop—to move to vapes, which I think we all recognise can be a useful quit aid. They are not harmless, but are less harmful than smoking cigarettes.

We are working at pace with online retailers on how to support them to ensure age verification, and I hope that we will be able to say more about that. The issue of duty-free sales is a tricky one, as my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East will appreciate, because we do not want to put the burden of legality on the purchaser. The idea is that it should be illegal to sell, and, of course, we have jurisdiction only in the United Kingdom, but I take his points on board and will come back to him on that.

The hon. Member for York Central is right that we need to do everything we can to stop advertising. There are already very strict rules around advertising, and smoking and vaping are severely restricted when it comes to advertising to children. But I think—I hope that the hon. Lady will agree—that the vaping measures, including the powers to limit packaging, flavours and in locations in stores, will do a lot to reduce the appeal to children, which I know we are all incredibly concerned about.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rachael Maskell]

rose—

[Kirsten Oswald]

rose—

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I will give way to the hon. Member for York Central and then to the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

With your permission, Dame Siobhain, I will take the intervention on the same subject from the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Is the Minister able to tell us a bit more about the interaction with the Advertising Standards Authority? What jurisdiction does it have in relation to the advertising of vapes on football strips, for instance? Is it not in fact our job to deal with that, rather than the job of the Advertising Standards Authority?

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

In response to all those points, I am extremely sympathetic to the need to clamp down on advertising. It seemed to me, when I came to the Bill, that it was important to get a “Where are we now?”-type assessment of what the current regulations say, how well they are being enforced and what more needs to be done. Like many colleagues, I am interested to hear what the Advertising Standards Authority has to say about that, and I am sure we will come back to this subject.

The hon. Member for York Central raised age verification. As she knows, retailers will be required to challenge and seek age verification from those who are born on or after 1 January 2009. As the Bill continues its passage, we will look at the amendments that have been tabled and consider whether there is a need to change that age verification requirement. At the moment, I think the Bill strikes the right balance. As I said at the beginning, it is essential that we make progress with the Bill in the short time remaining in this Parliament.

The hon. Lady’s points about the visitor economy were well made. It is essential that we ensure wide communication about the new measures in stores, at the point of sale; to retailers, who will have just over two years to enforce this legislation and undertake the training; and to members of the public. I commend the clauses to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3

Tobacco vending machines

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I will get back to my hon. Friend on that point, which is a good one. This clause and many others are intended to tidy up the statute book, rather than to introduce new subjects that would be more appropriately considered somewhere else.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I wonder whether I can reflect some of the Minister’s words back to her. She talks about clause 3 providing clarity, but I am afraid that I do not think it provides clarity—it adds a degree of confusion. This is the Tobacco and Vapes Bill, and it is reasonable that people look for measures relating to both those products. It adds an unwelcome level of confusion for us to deal so differently with vapes.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her views. As I said earlier, I will take away all the views expressed in Committee and reflect on them. I am grateful to her for her comments.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 3 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 4

Sale of unpackaged cigarettes

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsten Oswald]

Is the hon. Lady reflecting, as I am, on the comments that we heard in evidence about the link between professional footballers and some of these products? There is an obvious interest and attraction in these kinds of products for the very young people we are concerned might take up vaping.

[Dr Johnson]

Yes. Sportspeople, as we know, are very influential on young people. To promote products that are potentially harmful to children is morally wrong, in my view. They need to be careful to think about the effects that they may be having on children.

My question to the Minister is whether she will consider extending clause 7 outright to include nicotine products for children. We need to support children who are smokers or vapers and wish to quit, but those children can get nicotine replacement products from their GP on prescription. There is no need for those products to be sold to children.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting)

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 9th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Rachael Maskell]

The hon. Lady is following up on a theme that I probed at earlier stages of the Bill, notably on Second Reading. I believe that we need to look at stringent measures, so that people do not have their choices restricted by the addiction that they adopt. It is really important that young people today, or anyone else who engages with these products, do not get addicted at an early stage. We have to look at the issue of the impact of addiction in that wider realm, as we are doing on the Health and Social Care Committee, which is looking at products that are addictive and harmful to health in connection with the public health measures that we are scrutinising.

The hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham makes an important point, and at a later stage of the legislative process I hope to examine how we address the drug nicotine and its harmful impacts on young people and more widely. Addiction has been utilised by people who exploit the lives of others for their own profit, and we need to ensure that they do not get the opportunity again with children, young people or adults. They plague those who live in the greatest deprivation in our country, driving them to more harmful addiction. I therefore welcome the legislation, but I believe that we can go further. Given the industry’s activities right at this moment in trying to find new ways around legislation before it is even on the statute book, the Committee needs to be wise about ensuring that it does not get that opportunity.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

Everything that the hon. Member for York Central just said is worth reflecting on. Clause 43 applies to Scotland, and we are also talking about clause 10.

I spent a little time looking at nicotine pouches, which suddenly seem to be everywhere—or perhaps it is just that I am finding them advertised to me. I am definitely not the right person to advertise them to, but whenever I go on to social media, I inexplicably find them appearing before my eyes. There are a whole lot of questions around that. I will not be taking them, so that is fine, but other people will. We have heard about the uptake among young men in particular, which is concerning, because we heard some powerful evidence from health experts about the real harms that can be caused and the addiction that will follow people throughout their lives.

All the time, industry is finding new ways to hook young people. Some of the websites that I have looked at suggest that the pouches are a way to “avoid the health risk”. That is obviously not true—it is patent nonsense, actually. They also suggest that, for a sportsperson, “according to some reports”—that is me quoting again—there are “performance” benefits. Again, that is patent nonsense. It is obviously absolute rubbish, but I think it speaks to the narrative that surrounds pouches, as if they are somehow okay—a good thing—and they are not going to cause the harms that other nicotine-based products do. But of course these things will cause harm, and the addiction risk and health challenges are still there, too. The social normality, acceptability and prevalence of these things is deeply depressing. Their use by sportspeople in particular puts them across with some kind of veneer of being okay. They are not okay; they are deeply damaging to health.

Unsurprisingly, I am always keen to hear from the Minister about advertising and football strips, but to take that a step further, because we are talking about the same sports-based area, will she say how we can use legislation to keep ahead of companies that are so fleet of foot in hooking into things that people are interested in to promote these products directly or, more concerningly, indirectly?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

The hon. Lady makes a good point. There is an open question as to what the right level is, but it is for trading standards to decide whether the individual member of staff or the business pays the fine. So this is a very relevant point, but it is not just about taking the money out of the till. That is not necessarily the choice that trading standards would make; the fine may well be imposed on the individual.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I wonder whether looking at what an individual person may have in their purse is the right way to think about this. The Minister is right that I do not have £100 in my purse, but I am fortunate enough that I do have £100. It strikes me that in these situations, there would be a more modern way of paying the fine than expecting people to have it on their person at that moment. That puts a whole layer of obligation on them. I am slightly agnostic about what the level should be, but I wonder if we could look at what is reasonable rather than what people might have about their person.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

The hon. Lady makes a good point. Of course, most of us do not carry £100 in cash, because we do not need to these days. My point was more that if the fine is £200, an individual might say, “Well, you’ll have to take me to court over it.” That creates a huge administrative burden that will slow down justice.

I will turn to the other clauses, because I think that will help in this debate. Clauses 24 to 26 relate to fixed penalty notices in England and Wales. Clause 24 introduces fixed penalty notices for the under-age sale of tobacco and vaping products and for the free distribution of vaping products to under-18s in England and Wales. The current penalty regime requires trading standards to prosecute an individual or business, and they must be convicted in a magistrates court. The new fixed penalty notices will allow trading standards to take swifter action by issuing on-the-spot fines to retailers, instead of escalating to a court process. Fixed penalty notices are already in place in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Fixed penalty notices offer an individual the opportunity to avoid prosecution for an offence if they make a payment within a specified period. They are already in place for proxy purchases of tobacco and vape products. A strong approach to enforcement is vital to ensure the smoke-free generation policy, and that our approach to tackling youth vaping has real impact. Fixed penalty notices will complement the existing sanctions and strengthen the toolkit available to trading standards officers, allowing them to take swifter action to fine those selling to anyone under the age of sale.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Third sitting)

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 1st May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Dame Andrea Leadsom)]

Q I thank all you chief medical officers for being here; we appreciate it. You will understand that your witness evidence is crucial to easing the passage of the Bill. I would like to get you on the record talking, first, about the start of life. The shadow Minister has just asked about pregnancy and, only this week, I was talking to a neonatal nursing lead, who said of the pregnancies of women who smoke that the children had a low birth weight and go on to have severe learning difficulties throughout their lives. That is heartbreaking, but also has significant implications for NHS and educational services, and for whole-life costs to the taxpayer. I would be grateful for your comments on that.

At the other end of the age range, elderly people who have smoked all their lives end up with decades of ill health brought on by a lifetime of smoking. I would be grateful, too, if you talked about some of the health outcomes for those who have smoked all their lives—some of the horrors of that. Sir Chris, you told me an anecdote of when you were a young vascular surgeon. For the record, it is important to talk about some of the heartbreak for those who wish they could stop smoking.

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I completely agree with all the points you made. Starting off with the beginning of life, there are clear and significant increases in stillbirths, premature births, birth abnormalities and long-term effects from smoking just in the pre-birth period. Then, of course, if parents are smoking around babies and small children, that affects lung development and, if children have asthma, that will trigger asthma effects. Young children are significantly affected by passive smoking from their parents. The parents, of course, want the best for their children, but the problem is that they are now addicted to a product that has taken their choice away. We get those problems right from the very beginning, and we have talked about some of the issues in young pregnancies and where that leads.

Moving to the other end of the age spectrum that you were talking about, the full horrors of smoking for most people start to take effect from middle age onwards. At this point, people get a range of things. Everyone knows about lung cancer, I think, and most people know about heart disease, but there are effects on stroke or increases in dementia, which are significant—one of the best ways to delay dementia is not to smoke or to stop smoking at an early stage. That is a huge problem for all of us. Smoking also exacerbates any problems people have with diabetes—it makes that much worse—and people have multiple cardiac events leading to heart failure. In heavy smokers, we see extraordinary effects, like people having to lose their limbs. As you and I discussed, it is a tragedy to be on a ward with people with chronic obstructive airways disease, or on a vascular ward as a vascular surgeon with someone who has just had an amputation, weeping as they light up another cigarette, because they cannot stop, because their choice has been removed. I cannot hammer that point home firmly enough: this is an industry built on removing choice from people and then killing them in a horrible way.

Sir Francis Atherton: Minister, you also pointed out the cost to the NHS. In Wales, we estimate that we have about 5,500 deaths every year from smoking-related diseases. If we look at admissions to hospital, about 28,000 in the over-35 group is about 5% of overall hospital admissions. That is an enormous burden to the NHS. On a more personal basis, in a former life I was a GP, and I remember sitting with an elderly gentleman who at the end of his life was suffering with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. There is no worse death than not being able to breathe when just sitting there. I remember sitting with him as he was trying to talk to me and trying to express that same level of regret that Sir Chris talked about. If you talk to any smokers towards the end of their life, who are facing such terrible ends to their life, the sense of regret that you hear as a doctor is quite overpowering.

Professor Sir Michael McBride: It is estimated that in Northern Ireland there are more than 2,000 deaths each year directly attributable to smoking cigarettes; over the past five years, smoking makes up 12% of all deaths in Northern Ireland. Sir Frank and Sir Chris have clearly described the horrors of the impact that it has at an individual level, and as doctors we have all experienced that. We have all had those conversations with individuals who look back on a lifetime of regret.

On a more personal level, I also think at this moment about the impact that premature death, and the morbidity and mortality associated with smoking, has on families and children. My own father died at 46 years of age, when I was 16, from acute myocardial infarction as a consequence of a lifetime addiction to smoking cigarettes. So, we need to bear in mind the very human costs, family costs and wider societal costs as well. It is not just the cost to the health service, but the societal cost, the family cost and the cost to the wider economy.

Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: We should never forget the societal cost that Sir Michael just spoke about. I am the child of two smokers who died in their mid-60s from smoking-related disease. We see it all too often in Scotland. In fact, in Scotland we still have 9,000 deaths a year attributed to tobacco addiction and smoking. That is one death every 61 minutes that families suffer across Scotland as a consequence of addiction to smoking.

As a clinician, one of the diseases that I had become quite specialised in treating and led a lot of work on is chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. That is a smoking-related disease that people develop, often at too young an age, and begins to really impair their ability to participate fully in life—not only in employment, but in the pastimes that they love. Gradually, over time, it becomes worse.

Sir Frank touched on the sense of regret that people have that they ever started smoking in the first place and find themselves in this position. Beyond that, there is an even sadder element: many of the people who experience these chronic life-limiting illnesses have not only regret that they ever started, but guilt about the burden that they place on the health service and their family because of the illness and disability that they develop. That guilt sometimes reaches to the extent that they do not seek full care. Many people’s attitude is, “I deserve this. I started smoking; I need to pay the consequences.” That is a terrible psychological position for any person to find themselves in. Removing the starting point for that addiction, so that people will not experience that through their life, is the aim of the Bill.

Let me make one last point. We talk about the health impacts of all this. The Scottish burden of disease study projects that over the next 20 years, up until 2043, we will see a 21% increase in the general burden of disease across our population in Scotland, despite having a falling population during that time. Much of that projected burden of disease is smoking related; it relates to cancers, cardiovascular disease and neurological conditions such as dementia, which are all influenced by smoking. It is absolutely necessary for us to address this in a preventive way, and I believe that the Bill is a very good way of doing that.

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I want to reinforce the point that Sir Gregor just made, with which I am sure the Committee fully agrees, that individual smokers should never be blamed for the situation they are in. An incredibly wealthy, very sophisticated marketing industry deliberately addicted them to something, at the earliest age it could get away with it, and they have had their choice removed. It is important that people do not feel guilt and come forward for care, and that no one blames them for a situation that was deliberately put on them by industry marketing.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

Q I will continue on the theme of marketing. Do you have thoughts about the measures relating to the product restriction of vapes in the Bill? Are they robust enough, in your mind, to prevent the harm that is caused by vapes, particularly to young people? I am thinking of the study that came out yesterday that, concerningly, suggested a risk to teenagers who vape of exposure to toxic metals, potentially harming their organ and brain development.

As a follow-on from that, I am concerned about the advertising of vape companies on sports kits, which is profoundly unhelpful. When we look at sporting figures who young people can admire, that has absolutely no place. I wonder what your views are on that.

Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: My views are very clear on vaping in young people and on sales to the youth categories. This is an activity that we are still learning much about but that the evidence, as it emerges, appears to suggest is very harmful to them. In my conversations with my paediatricians and with the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, they are very concerned about the impacts on health of young people from beginning vaping. Any attempt to make products such as single-use vapes or flavoured vapes, or the packaging used or the marketing around vapes, more attractive to that age group is something that we need to counter and resist.

I would say that the aims of the Bill will allow us the means by which we can properly consult on the way that we attempt to reduce overall vaping use in this age group. I am very clear in my views on this: while I understand that vaping may be an assistance to people who are already addicted to tobacco and nicotine products as a consequence of use of many years—I see that there may be an argument that it allows them to reduce the level of harm they are exposed to—I am not convinced or led by any of the arguments that starting vaping in a younger age group is a safe activity at all. I do not believe that that is the case; I believe that it is harmful to those groups. We must try to counter that, and to counter the marketing machine that Sir Chris has spoken about, by reducing the flavours and packaging that are attractive to younger people.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q Can I press you, Professor Sir Gregor, on the issue of sports marketing? Do you think it is acceptable that big football teams, for instance, are advertising vape companies on their strips?

Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith: I am very much in favour of the sports industry in general promoting health-promoting behaviours in any way. Where I become very uncomfortable, and I am not supportive, is where the massive attraction of sports companies is used in a way that promotes behaviours that are known to be unsafe or unhealthy. Given the evidence base that we have for this, I would certainly favour breaking the connection between the marketing of these products by any organisation—I do not limit this to sports companies—and anything that is attractive to this demographic and age group.

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I completely agree with all the points that Professor Sir Gregor has made; I know all the CMOs would agree with that. What all the witnesses that you have heard so far have said, which I think reflects the debate, is that we want to retain vapes as one of the tools to help some smokers to quit. That is a sensible thing to do. We are reasonably confident that they are safer than smoking, but saying that something is safer than smoking is setting an unbelievably low bar, because of all the harms that it does.

So yes, moving from smoking to vaping is a step in the right direction—we want to be clear about that—but we absolutely do not want this to be marketed to anybody who is not a smoker, and above all to children, which is utterly unacceptable. We should be very clear about this. Many people in the vape industry will say, “No, no, no: we don’t market to children.” You walk into a vape shop and think, “Who are you kidding?” It is very clear what is happening.

We should be really clear that the only thing that is being supported here is to help people who currently smoke to move over to not smoking and eventually to quitting. A step towards that can be vaping; all other uses of vapes we would absolutely not want to do anything to support. The balance in the Bill is to allow enough elements to make it more attractive to vape than to smoke, because we do want to do that, but to make it in no way more attractive than that, because we absolutely do not want anyone else to do it.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q Does putting it on a football shirt do that?

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I think we are all very keen for the Bill to get through in the time that remains in this Parliament, so none of us would want to complicate this, but as Sir Gregor says, what we really want is for sports to be very firmly in the area of things that promote health. This is one of the areas that I do not think any of us would suggest is promoting health, so in broad terms we would agree, while not wanting in any way to complicate the Bill that is before Parliament at the moment.

[Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q Thank you to all the CMOs. I would like to press that point a little further. Should the advertising of vapes be in alignment with that of tobacco products, for simplicity and understanding? Should the rules on where people can vape be in alignment with those for tobacco products, so not in indoor spaces or in cars transporting children? Are we missing an opportunity, in the light of the opening comments about the addiction to nicotine, to create a nicotine-free generation, as opposed to a tobacco-free generation?

Professor Sir Chris Whitty: I wonder whether Sir Michael might want to go first, and then Sir Frank.

Professor Sir Michael McBride: We have to start somewhere. What we actively want to do, at this point in time, is encourage those individuals who smoke to quit smoking. We recognise that there are nicotine replacement products other than vapes that are very effective and that individuals successfully use, but for some individuals, as has been stated already and as is outlined in the relevant NICE guidance, vapes can be effective and are safer than smoking. It is about finding the sweet spot—hence the powers to consult.

We need to get a balance to ensure that we are absolutely not creating circumstances in which vaping is attractive to young children, starts a lifetime of addiction to nicotine and is potentially a gateway to smoking tobacco, as I think your question is suggesting. But at this point in time, this is an important step to ensure that the next generation are protected from smoking tobacco. We need to support those individuals who currently smoke or are currently addicted to nicotine to gradually move away from that addiction. That includes supporting smokers who currently smoke to quit, but we are increasingly seeing individuals who wish to quit vaping and are finding it difficult.

We are at the start of a journey. As Sir Chris has said, we do not want to delay this Bill and this important step change, in terms of making very significant progress. Sir Frank, do you want to add to that?

Sir Francis Atherton: Very briefly. The principle of alignment is a positive one. Keeping it simple for the public is in the interest of messaging, as a general point. In Wales, we did try—in 2016, I think it was—to align smoke-free and vape-free public places. Personally, I think that there is merit in that, but we have to be careful, because some of the arguments are different. The arguments around smoke-free public places are based on passive smoking, but we do not have a lot of data on passive vaping; many people see it as a nuisance, but that is a very different argument. We need to be a little bit cautious about that, even though I would personally be in favour.

The important thing is to remember that we really need to keep vapes as the quit tool. Your point about moving towards a nicotine-free next generation is absolutely right; that is really what we want to do. If we can make it less acceptable and less prevalent that children take up vaping, we should move towards that. The reality is that over the last three years we have seen a tripling of vaping among our children and young people. That is just unacceptable. The measures in the Bill will help deal with that and lead us, we hope, towards the nicotine-free generation that you talk about.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (First sitting)

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Thank you. I will take two more questions, from Kirsten Oswald and Bob Blackman.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

Q To expand on a point made earlier, I wonder what more is necessary in terms of promotion and advertising action. I am very concerned about the matter of football strips and, indeed, sports stadiums being sponsored by vaping companies. The messages that that sends to the young people who are taking up vaping in such numbers is hugely problematic. It strikes me that within your areas of expertise there are probably other areas where we could extend what we are seeking to do here, in order that we do the best job possible of trying to close these loopholes.

[Bob Blackman]

All three witnesses have given support for the Bill. You have already suggested one change that could be made in terms of age verification, similar to the system in Scotland. Are there any other changes that you think should be implemented that could make the Bill stronger? One of the concerns that many of us have is that we get only a limited number of chances to deal with this challenge in primary legislation, so we need to get in as much as we can to make sure that we achieve the smoke-free England that we all want to see.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

We have time for another round of questions, if Members want.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q I am grateful to you both for your comments so far. Would you say more about your thoughts on groups of people, particularly young people —this is a thing you will hear around the table—who are taking up vaping but have not previously smoked. Do the measures in the Bill go as far as you want in trying to prevent that from being the direction of travel?

Dr Griffiths: If the Committee is minded to strengthen anything that would prohibit people from starting vaping in the first instance, where they are not doing so as a cessation tool—I hope it is really clear that we believe that, as a cessation tool, this is a product that has its place that would help thousands of smokers give up and, ideally, prevent them from losing their quality of life or, tragically, their lives; I hope that is explicitly clear—I think that could have incredible impact. What we are worried about is people using vaping as a start and an entry point to nicotine. Nicotine is so highly addictive. You see that in the number of smokers who desperately want to give up. We have spoken to such people in abundance. Anything that helps us get to that point would be welcome.

Sarah Sleet: Nicotine, we know, is as addictive as heroin and cocaine. It is a terrible addiction. However, in terms of vaping, it is going to be quite tricky to get that balancing act right. We really need to have vaping as a cessation tool. We know it is more effective than just about anything else you can have in terms of cessation. For example, when it comes to flavouring, if you make that too difficult or make it problematic for people to switch, then there is a chance that we may have a real problem in terms of stopping smoking. On the other hand, we really do not want people to be attracted into vaping who have never smoked. I understand that that bit of the legislation is in secondary legislation and can be adapted over time; I think a lot of attention is going to need to be given to how people are actually responding and how they are behaving, and then adjusting that over time.

[Angela Richardson (Guildford) (Con)]

Q You have been quite clear that even though we do not yet have the evidence to understand the impacts of vaping, it is a very important cessation tool. Do you see a world in which it could be prescribed as a cessation tool, as opposed to being available as a retail product?

Sarah Sleet: I believe that is the system in Australia—it is prescribed. I think it is a possibility. It needs to be well researched. Would it still encourage people who need to stop smoking to use it as a tool, or would it put a barrier up to using that tool? Before we move to that system, we would need some really good behavioural evidence that it is not going to be a further barrier for people. If it is not, then that could be a really good option.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q Thank you so much for being here, and also particularly for the work that the NASUWT has done in terms of the impact on schools. Could you expand on that a bit further? I have done a couple of visits ahead of this Bill. I met enforcement officers, for example, who gave me anecdotal evidence that teachers say that pupils will return to the classroom with their eyes spinning and unable to concentrate because of the heady nature of whatever it is they have just been vaping or smoking. There was another anecdote about a school where children decided to drink the vape fluid and the school actually had to have a sort of emergency evacuation as a result of that.

Could you therefore expand on that, in terms of the specific health impacts and, at the one end, the ability of children to concentrate on the class when they are spaced out on vapes, and, at the other end, the very real risk to children from doing something stupid with a vape that was entirely unintended, with disastrous consequences?

Patrick Roach: I very much appreciate your remarks about the research that the NASUWT has undertaken. We come at the problem of vaping from the point of view of our members in classrooms, in schools the length and breadth of the country. What do teachers need in order to be able to teach effectively and what do they believe that pupils need in order to learn effectively? They need good order in the classroom.

My perspective is not that of a medical practitioner or of someone wanting to assume that I have the knowledge about the impact of vaping on a child’s physical development. Our concern is the impact on a child’s educational development, participation and achievement. The reality is that everything you have mentioned there is absolutely right, whether it is about the way in which vaping products might be unintentionally used by pupils; or about how they seek to conceal them about their person; or, indeed, the drinking of vaping fluids, as if somehow that will get the high without necessarily being detected; or about the use of vaping products as a stimulant, which impacts not only on concentration but on behaviour and, indeed, on a child’s wellbeing in the classroom.

Matthew has already referenced the difficulty of detecting vapes sometimes, because they can dissipate very quickly; and they can also trigger fire alarms in schools. We have had plenty of examples of teachers and headteachers reporting that their school has had to evacuate the building not just on one or two occasions in a day but multiple times—five or six occasions. That is a loss of learning not just for one pupil or class of pupils but the entire school. We are really concerned about the impact of all that.

Teachers are not just concerned about a child’s educational development, though; they are also concerned about a child’s wellbeing in the round. Teachers are reporting the very damaging impact that vaping can have on a child’s mental and physical development, just as smoking can. That is one of the reasons we have spoken out—and we are pleased that the Government have responded—to say that we need to be doing more to strengthen the enforcement of rules around vaping, access to it and the availability for school-age pupils. We need to do as much as we possibly can to prevent any school-age pupil from getting access to vaping products, whether in or outside school. We are pleased that the Bill seeks to do just that.

Matthew Shanks: I absolutely echo and reinforce what Patrick has said. Also, as school leaders we are looking after teachers, but we are caring for families as well. The Bill will help families to understand that it is not okay for their children to vape. Anecdotally we have parents saying to us that they let children vape at home, because it is better than them smoking or being out on the streets; parents do not see the harm in it. It is really important that that is recognised. The banning of tobacco sale was interesting in terms of the prescription of it; I would posit that at the moment vaping is seen as safe by the general public.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q I wonder if you can develop some of the points you have made, which have been very useful. I am hearing anecdotally about issues in schools where the addiction of children to these vapes is itself causing a problem, because the children are unable to sit in the classroom and have to go out to vape, with whatever excuse is made, so that they then feel able to come back to the classroom, such is the level of their addiction to these products. If I may go beyond that slightly, what are your views on the way these things are promoted—for instance, on our particular concern about vape companies advertising on sports strips and in sports stadiums, and the impact on the same young people who are so addicted?

Matthew Shanks: I completely agree. The way in which vapes are marketed—the colours, flavours and so on—and the places where they are marketed suggest to people that they are safe. The fact that they are put forward as a “safe” alternative to cigarettes, the fact that parents use them and the fact that there are lots of colourful vape shops open in high streets: all those aspects promote the idea that vaping is okay.

At the same time, getting into a child’s mindset—we have all been there, as children—we like to break the rules and feel like we are pushing at boundaries. We know that it is not okay, but it is made okay. I would suggest that more children engage in vaping than in cigarette smoking, because they are not sure what the harmful effects are. That is the danger in it. I do think it leads on, because the younger children vape, but by the time they are 16 or 17, vaping might not be cool any more, so they go on to cigarettes or other things.

Anecdotally, we have heard of schools down in the south-west where people are putting cannabis into the vapes, so the addiction grows from that point of view as well. It leads to children coming out of lessons agitated. If I did not have three coffees in the morning, my agitation would be quite high. If children are not getting nicotine, as well as going through all the other things they are going through, they really do present as confrontational to staff, which makes it difficult to deal with them in classrooms and engage them in their learning. At the same time, to repeat a point I made earlier, you have parents at home who are saying, “Well, it’s okay to do.” I absolutely concur about the way it is marketed and so on.

Patrick Roach: To add to that, because those are important points: vape producers and manufacturers, and indeed those supplying vapes, are advertising freely in ways that make their products increasingly attractive to children and young people, with the way vapes are advertised and the marketing descriptors used for them. All the evidence we have, and certainly what our members tell us—our survey was of 4,000 teachers, so this is not anecdotal; it has an impact right across the system— suggests that the way those products are marketed and described deliberately seeks to entice young people to make use of them.

We believe that this is a strong Bill that very clearly sets out the societal expectations in this space, but as with any legislation, there is always scope for loopholes. If there are areas in the Bill where there is potential to further strengthen the legislation, I think the enticing way products are described, before an individual understands what they are getting themselves into, is something that needs to be considered and addressed.

From our point of view, it is about advertising, but it is also about access to these products. With the best will in the world, and no matter how they are advertised, if the products are easily available at the point of sale it makes things incredibly difficult. I remember that when I was bringing up my own children I worried about going to the supermarket with them, because they would be surrounded by candy and sweet products at the checkouts. You could not navigate your way through the checkouts. Thankfully, things have moved on: that has changed, and many parents are benefiting from those changes.

Young people are very much interacting with many of these products at the point of sale. They are in the shops that are in the vicinity of or on the route to and from school. They are being marketed in places that young people will frequent, whether that be a local café, the hairdressers or the barbers. They are in places where young people will be. They are also immediately available. The more we can do to stop the immediacy of marketing of these products and that easy availability, no matter how they are described, the better.

[Dr Cameron]

Q I have been hearing from parents and schools in my constituency that they are very concerned that children are going out at lunchtime and spending their lunch money on vapes, so they are not having anything nutritious during the day. Is there any evidence that indicates that there might be a pattern developing in that respect that will have an impact on children’s physical health and wellbeing?

Matthew Shanks: Absolutely: children will find any which way they can to do what they want to do. At the moment, while this is not illegal, they will gather more people to follow the crowd and go out. In my experience, the majority of children want to do as they are instructed—probably about 85%, anecdotally, over the years—but they will follow the herd. At the moment, there is a greater herd growing because of all the things we have talked about, with the marketing and colour of vapes. I can absolutely see children going out at lunchtime and spending their money on that, instead of on food. There is peer pressure to do that as well—it is taking more people with them. As Patrick said, you can see these products in the barbers, in the shops and so on.

Patrick Roach: To add to that, there are also bullying behaviours that manifest themselves. Whether a pupil is making the choice to go out at lunchtime to acquire vapes or is feeling coerced to do so, there is an issue either way. The availability of those products in the proximity of schools needs to be considered. That is a point that we would make.

Increasingly, schools have introduced systems to seek to ensure that children are being fed at lunch times, for example. We should not lose sight of that, but in some instances these products—particularly disposable vapes —are cheap as chips. I know that that is an issue of concern to the Government, and it is of concern to us and our members.

It is really important that we look at how we can ban the sale of disposable vapes entirely, because frankly no one knows what is in them, and they are incredibly cheap to acquire. Even if your parent can see what you had on Tuesday lunchtime because it comes up on their phone, how will they know if you have spent 10 minutes popping out to the local shop to acquire some vapes, particularly if they are of the disposable variety? More can be done not only to limit appeal, but to reduce the availability and accessibility of those products to young people. The more that can be done on that, the better.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

Q Thank you. Would that older person suffering those consequences say: “Yes, it was all a matter of free choice”?

Paul Farmer: I think different people will have different opinions about choice, and whether it was as a result of choice. I think what many older people have been telling us is that if they had known about the damaging consequences of smoking, they would not have started in the first place and would certainly have considered it in a greater way.

I want to pay huge tribute to colleagues at British Heart Foundation, who I know you have just heard from, who I think have taken the best way of trying to campaign over a long term on this issue. This is a long-term issue. Sadly today’s generation of older people is seeing the consequences of what has not happened.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q Could you explain who “older people” are? Sadly, I recently recognised that that might include more of us than we might like to believe. We need to take that on board. What I am really interested in are the different demographic groups, and where you think there might be disproportionate levels of harm from tobacco and vaping within the groups of older people that you support.

Paul Farmer: We work with people over the age of 50, which may be news to some of you here. One of the reasons why we have recently chosen to drop the age group that we increasingly work with is precisely for prevention and early intervention.

This is not the earliest intervention; you can, of course, argue that many health interventions need to take place among children and younger people. However, from an Age UK point of view, we know that there is potential to intervene in people’s lives and support them to live healthier lives—it is not just about health, but in this context it is mainly about health—which means that your healthy life expectancy can improve and, as I mentioned earlier, you can fulfil some of the ambitions of your later life. The burden on the NHS of unhealthy life expectancy is a big issue.

The bulk of our direct work is with people over pensionable age, if you like. In each of those generations, you see the differences in experiences of smoking. Somebody now in their 80s or 90s almost certainly will not be alive if they are a heavier smoker, because they probably will not have benefited from any of the public health information that has taken place under previous Governments, so that is obviously the major difference.

In terms of the different health conditions, we know that certain health conditions will increase with age. Dementia is the greatest example of that, where we know that the older you are, the more likely you are to develop dementia. In a sense, as our population as a whole has gotten healthier and lived longer, it has become increasingly apparent where those health inequalities are at their most acute.

[The Chair]

I will attempt one final question from Dr Lisa Cameron. I simply make the point that the briefer the question, the more possibility there is that she will get an answer.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting)

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Why do you support the complete ban as opposed to raising the age from 18 to 21, as many people often say? I know the Khan review has talked about not getting to a smoke-free future if we did that, but is there anything you would like to say about that?

Greg Fell: Years and years ago, the narrative was about raising the age of sale to 21, but I think the evidence has shifted. I hear from a number of stakeholders and sources that the tobacco industry is targeting its public relations at slightly older young people—the 18 to 25 age group. If you were to stop at 21, the tobacco industry would just change its marketing and you would therefore get a new target group recruited into smoking. Nobody thinks that that is a good idea, so the evidence is shifting.

The ban sets a really important norm. We can all remember walking out of a pub smelling of cigarettes. We cannot imagine that now, so continually shifting the norm changes population behaviour just by norm shifting, which is important and often underplayed. I would support the lifting lid—I think that is the right phrase.

Cllr Fothergill: I think Greg is absolutely right. At the LGA, we support the progressive lifting of the age as opposed to raising it to 21. We think that is the right way to go. It will then move through the population over a number of years rather than just being static at a single point.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

Q We heard in an evidence session earlier about the challenges in schools, with children vaping in increasing numbers. There is an impact on their education because of their becoming addicted, and that causes challenges in their interactions with the learning process. Do you think that the measures in the Bill are sufficient to deal with that growing problem? Do you have a view on whether we have a handle on the quantum of that problem, and are the measures on advertising sufficient to try to remedy that?

Greg Fell: Yes, in part, in terms of the measures in the Bill. I would treat vapes like I would treat cigarettes in terms of colours and marketing, with plain packs out of sight behind the counter and strongly enforced. I would take care, though: we use and want to continue to use vapes as a route out of smoking cigarettes, so getting the balance right remains important, but I would be quite aggressive about the regulation and the deterrent.

Education in schools by itself will not be sufficient. It might or might not be effective, but it will not be sufficient. Action on Smoking and Health has co-produced with a number of local authorities a range of resource packs for parents, teachers and others, which are fairly widely used, but they are not sufficient by themselves to stop the rise in young people vaping, so we need strong regulation with the enforcement of that to boot.

Cllr Fothergill: It is not part of this Bill, but it is part of LGA policy that we would like to see a ban on disposable vapes. There are 5 million sold every week, with the vast majority sold to younger people. The vast majority are thrown away. Those that are thrown away responsibly finish up in one of our recycling lorries where the lithium batteries cause major problems with fires. It is not part of this legislation, but we think that that needs to be tackled separately; I think it will be.

Greg Fell: One point that I just remembered on the resource pack that has been widely circulated to headteachers and schools: a line was taken in that to tell the truth—not to over-egg the pudding but to tell the truth and say what we do and do not know, because in my experience scaring kids usually switches them on to something rather than turning them off something. In the pack, we have also told the truth about the methods and tactics that the tobacco industry has used to get kids hooked on vapes, and that as a rule makes kids pretty angry. It certainly makes parents pretty angry when they realise what has happened.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

Q If I may, Mr Fell, I will bring you back to the issue of passive vaping. You talked about there not being so much evidence on the harms of passive vaping compared with passive smoking, which is correct. Of course, smoking has been around much longer for the effects to be understood. However, there are papers, published in reliable journals such as The BMJ, saying that those people—in particular, young adults who do not smoke or vape—who are exposed to passive vaping do get an increase in bronchial symptoms.

Greg Fell: Agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Cameron]

Q But it is probably more difficult to tell whether someone is 35, 40 or 45 than whether someone is an older adult, going on a bus, or whether someone is a teenager rather than someone in their mid-20s. I am just wondering how that could work, in a sense, in terms of the training.

Adrian Simpson: I agree—that is difficult. It takes me back to discussions around Challenge 25, which we have mentioned. It started out as Challenge 21, and the age was raised because it was very difficult to tell the difference between a 21-year-old and an 18-year-old. Technology is evolving in this area. There are new things. We know that members are using new forms of technology to help with that. They rely on things like Government-issued ID. There are various ways of challenging someone. It comes down to things like the training and how the consumer is around the till. Are they acting nervous or like they are up to something? It is then down to the retailer to use the training that they have been given to check the ID and use their own in-store procedures, as well to try to operate responsibly.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q To follow on from that dialogue, it strikes me that a degree of social change will be needed, because it will have to become normal for you to go into a shop and provide whatever kind of ID. It seems to me unlikely that that will be a conversation that will centre on whether you look this age or a year older. Has that led you to any conversations with people who deal with things like bus passes or the voter ID that is required? Is the communication of that to the public—a different angle from the communication to the retail staff—something that you are working on?

Adrian Simpson: Yes, we do work closely with trading standards, who are very good at doing the education side. It is not just about educating our members, but educating the public and bringing about a cultural change where it is almost expected that you will be asked for ID. If you have been in any large retailer recently, you have probably seen the badges they wear that say, “It’s our job to ask for your age”, for example. Certainly, among our member businesses, it very much is the culture to go for the Challenge 25. Although these regulations with the rolling age will have challenges, I am sure our members are well placed to overcome them.

[The Chair]

Adrian, thank you so much for your evidence this afternoon. It has been clear and concise.

Adrian Simpson: Thank you, Sir Gary, and thank you, everyone.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

Q My question follows on from that of my colleague. Lincolnshire police measured what was in vapes confiscated from children in my constituency. They found chemicals like diethylene glycol diacetate, antifreeze, Steol-M, poster varnish and others. As I understand it, when they look at a vape in a box, one of the challenges for enforcers is being able to tell whether it is a real, legitimate vape that contains what it is supposed to contain or a fake vape that contains a whole load of nonsense and potentially harmful chemicals. How could the legislation help you with that?

Secondly, someone showed me on packets of cigarettes recently that there is a scannable code, and trading standards have a special scanner that they can scan that with. Would that sort of thing help on so-called legitimate vapes?

Kate Pike: Potentially. The track-and-trace legislation on tobacco that enables us to scan a packet of tobacco and find out if it is where it should be—it is tracked all the way through the system—could potentially work on vapes. It would be very complicated to bring in—well, not complicated; it would be a big exercise to bring in track and trace for vapes, but it is potentially something. As you know, there is a consultation out at the moment for vapes to become an excise product, so it could possibly be that we introduce track and trace alongside that for vapes.

If you look at a vape and you look at the packaging, there are lots of red flags that tell us if it is illegal. We can usually tell by the packaging alone. We are doing some market surveillance work at the moment for vapes that look as if they should be compliant; they are notified to the MHRA, to check the ingredients. So far, touch wood, we are not finding too many issues in those nominally compliant vapes. But there are so many illegal vapes out there. It is actually quite easy to see that they are illegal, when you see them. We do know how to identify them at the moment, but obviously it could become more difficult. We will just have to make sure that the new regulations are still enforceable when they come in. For example, if there is a ban on types of flavour, we would want that to be really clear. We do not want to have to go round sniffing or tasting. It needs to be clear by the description, rather than just some sort of guess along the lines of, “Is that strawberry bakewell-flavoured?” It would be very difficult for us to manage that.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q I do not know if others have had this experience, but I am aware that I am increasingly being advertised at online by products that, although I am not really sure what they are, are certainly connected or proximate to tobacco or vapes. That leads me to wonder whether there are any tobacco, vaping or other connected or related products that are not covered by this Bill, which you think perhaps should be.

Kate Pike: I think the Bill is really good at closing some of those loopholes. It will include an age restriction on 0% nicotine vapes, for example. There are other nicotine products, such as the little nicotine pouches. The popular term is, I think, snus, but we know that snus is already banned in this country. The enabling regulations to put a regulatory framework around products like that will be really helpful. These industries are very innovative, so we just need to make sure that we are keeping up with our regulation. I think that the enabling regulation powers will enable us to keep up with new products, but it is continually little steps, and regulation chasing after innovation. We would like it to be the other way round, really.

[Trudy Harrison]

Q You are both very effectively articulating the complexity of your programme of work within trading standards, but 2027 seems like a terribly long timeframe. Given what we know about nicotine addiction and the outcomes, is it the right timeframe, and what will you need to be doing in that timeframe to achieve the deadline?

John Herriman: I think this is all about strategic resourcing. As I have already articulated, the profession has had a significant cut in resources over the last decade or so. Actually, we now have to go into a phase where we are rebuilding the capacity. We can do this; we know that we can enforce regulations, because we have seen that we can do it successfully within the world of tobacco. It is now about what we are doing as a profession to start building back that capacity. We are taking some new steps: for example, there are now apprenticeship schemes running in England, both at level 6 and level 4, and we are supporting the level 4 apprenticeships in Scotland and Wales.

One of the things that I think is really good about the Bill, and the work that DHSC and other Departments have been doing, is the taking of a strategic view. We have to build this capacity gradually—fairly swiftly, actually—into trading standards, but we also have to be clear on expectations with businesses, so that they know what is coming and we can therefore make sure that we are moving at the same sort of pace. By taking that strategic approach, it allows us to build the capacity at the right level and make sure we have trading standards officers who are qualified—it can sometimes take two to three years to train somebody as a fully-qualified trading standards officer. That way, we have a sustainable platform to make sure that the legislation can be enforced. Essentially, that is what we are seeing here. We have not seen this level of strategic approach to resourcing and tackling a problem in many other areas, so it is quite welcome.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Thank you very much. You will hear first from your own Member of Parliament, Kirsten Oswald, who will ask the first question.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q I have kept you as a constituent, Laura, despite your being away studying. I know that you will have handled conversations probably significantly better than the rest of us on the prevalence of vapes in all our communities, particularly in areas near schools and the coast, where they can lead to plastic pollution. Can you tell us what change you have seen over the last couple of years in terms of the numbers and explain why that is problematic to the environment ?

Laura Young: The environmental impact cannot be overstated. Vapes are a huge issue, especially for waste, and we have seen the numbers growing and growing. Material Focus, an environmental electronics charity, did some research specifically looking at disposable vapes in 2022 and 2023 and the number quadrupled. In 2023 we were looking at about 5 million a week. Jam-packed inside each and every vape are lots of precious materials, which of course are going to waste after one single use. We know they are not being recycled, so those materials are just being wasted. We are not getting them back.

We also know that vapes pose a huge risk to our waste workers. They have lithium batteries inside them and we have seen some devastating fires already because of them. That represents what we have been hearing today. Walking down any high street you will see the prevalence of these being sold in almost every type of shop everywhere. We see them sold everywhere, wasted everywhere, and having a huge impact on the environment and the health of people and children who get their hands on them.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q Would you like to say a little more around how tobacco and vaping products impact the environment? There was an opportunity for the Government to do a lot more on cigarette butts. Do you want to say anything about that?

Laura Young: Of course, one of the obvious things is litter. Every single street has cigarette butts on it and that is very harmful. We do not want any litter, if possible. Disposable vapes have become an increasing site of litter as well. They are not just litter; they are electronic devices and are very damaging with lots of chemicals inside them. We have even had garage owners talking about people popping tyres with these shards of metal as they get squashed and run over, so they are very damaging.

All the way through the process of particularly vapes we see a lot of material resource—lithium, copper and cobalt, things that have to be mined around the world—put together for these devices to be used just once before they run out and are thrown away. The disposability speaks to a lot of the other problems. These are made as disposable. They are throwaway and cheap, and that leads to the fact that so many young people buy them because they are cheap, accessible and throwaway. Something that is absolutely an environmental issue with waste and litter is also a big problem in terms of accessibility for young people.

Liver Disease and Liver Cancer

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2024 Westminster Hall

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Christopher. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Stockport (Navendu Mishra) and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) for securing this important debate on health inequalities in liver disease and liver cancer. It is a particularly timely debate, given the recent publication of statistics showing that alcohol deaths in the UK surged during the covid-19 pandemic. While alcohol misuse is not the only cause of liver disease, it is, as we have heard, responsible for a large proportion of cases, and that does need to be addressed.

As the hon. Member for Stockport set out, we need to acknowledge that liver disease has an inescapable link to deprivation. The incidence of liver disease and the risk of hospitalisation and death are all significantly higher in regions and nations of the UK that have higher levels of deprivation relative to London and the south-east of England. It is important to discuss this, and it is welcome that we are having a debate on the topic today. We should do so from the starting point that deprivation leads to poorer health outcomes. In the case of liver disease and liver cancer, that means that someone from the most deprived area is four times more likely to die than someone from a more affluent area. That is not acceptable.

It is now conventional wisdom that preventing a disease is far more desirable than having to treat or cure it. In Scotland, we have rates of liver disease that are far too high. However, I am grateful that the Scottish Government have introduced policies that are making a real difference by reducing deprivation, decreasing the incidence of liver disease and improving early detection.

The Scottish Government, looking at the issue in the broadest sense, have introduced policies such as the Scottish child payment, which anti-poverty charities have described as a “game changer”. Combined with other interventions, it has the potential to lift an estimated 100,000 children out of poverty. That investment is just one example of the Scottish Government intervening at the early stages of life to reduce inequality, and it will undoubtedly help in our fight against conditions such as liver disease, and indeed all other diseases associated with inequality and deprivation.

The introduction of minimum unit pricing in Scotland has also delivered results. In England, where there is no minimum unit pricing, liver disease mortality and morbidity continue to rise, whereas in Scotland, health inequalities are gradually decreasing. This has resulted in chronic liver disease deaths in Scotland decreasing from 17.9 per 100,000 in 2021 to 17.4 per 100,000 in 2022. Let me be clear: those figures are still stark, and more action needed. However, minimum unit pricing has reduced alcohol-related harms and alcohol-specific deaths by 13.4%. That is surely an intervention that we should now see across the whole UK to help to tackle liver disease, among other issues.

Scotland’s innovative life sciences sector has produced groundbreaking tests to help to diagnose liver disease at earlier stages, when damage can be reversed and the progression to cirrhosis or cancer halted. Unfortunately, as we have heard, the reality is that three in four liver disease patients present at crisis point, usually in A&E, with cirrhosis and all the horrible symptoms that come with that condition. Researchers from the University of Dundee have developed the new intelligent liver function test, which uses an algorithm to perform additional investigations on abnormal blood test results. The test can help to refer patients to specialists earlier than would otherwise be the case, minimising the workload of GPs in primary care and increasing the diagnostic rate of liver disease threefold. It has the potential to revolutionise the diagnostic pathway.

Focusing on tackling alcohol misuse, obesity and viral hepatitis are all important in lowering the rate of liver disease and liver cancer, but we cannot escape the fact that the UK Government’s decision to inflict more than a decade of austerity has exacerbated the inequalities and deprivation associated with liver disease. If the UK Government want to get serious about tackling liver disease, they need to get serious about tackling inequality. Threatening to cut the benefits of disabled people who are unable to work does nothing to tackle inequality. Forcing real-terms cuts on departmental budgets that are already strained because of inflation does not deliver the services needed to tackle inequality.

The UK has one of the highest levels of regional inequality in Europe, and until there is a real and concerted effort to change that basic fact, poorer outcomes for liver disease and liver cancer, particularly among the most deprived communities, will remain stubbornly hard to improve. I hope that we will hear today about the action that the UK Government are willing to take to ensure that that statistic quickly becomes a thing of the past.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 16th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I am not speaking in this debate because I love smoking, although I have voted against every single smoking prohibition since I have been a Member of Parliament. I am speaking today because I am very concerned that the policy that has been put forward is emblematic of a technocratic establishment in this county that wants to limit people’s freedom. That is a problem.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

[Elizabeth Truss]

I will not give way to the hon. Lady—[Hon. Members: “Oh.”] I will not give way. I will give exactly as much opportunity as the Opposition gave me to talk about my private Member’s Bill, which I shall come on to later.

The problem is that the instinct of this establishment, which is reflected in cross-party consensus in the Chamber, is to believe that it—that the Government—is better at making decisions for people than people themselves. I absolutely agree that that is true for the under-18s. It is very important that we protect people while they are growing up until they have decision-making capability. However, I think the whole idea that we can protect adults from themselves is hugely problematic and effectively infantilises people. That is what has been going on. We are seeing, not just on tobacco but on sugar, alcohol and meat, a group of people who want to push an agenda which is about limiting personal freedom. I think that that is fundamentally wrong.

I go out canvassing a lot in my Norfolk constituency. People raise all kinds of issues with me on the doorstep. They are concerned about immigration. They are concerned about the cost of energy. They are concerned about the rise of China. They want to support Ukraine. Not a single voter has ever said to me, “My big concern is adults smoking.” This proposal has not come from people—our constituents—talking to us. It has come from a group of people who, by and large, work in a professional capacity pushing these policies. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) was Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, this proposal was sitting on her desk, so it is not new. I am pleased to say that she put it in the bin, but unfortunately since then it seems to have been pulled out of the bin and resuscitated. My real fear is that this is not the final stage that the health police want to push.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

I am pleased to speak here today in favour of the Bill, part 2 of which specifically relates to Scotland, because smoking is the leading cause of preventable death in both Scotland and the UK. We know that, so we are surely duty bound to act and prevent harms. To be clear from the outset, I want us to help people to stop smoking. Smoking cessation, as well as preventing future harm, requires our action.

Dr Ian Walker, executive director of policy at Cancer Research UK, has correctly pointed out that nothing will have a bigger impact on reducing the number of preventable deaths in the UK then ending smoking. I will not go into detail about the terrible reality of the health impacts of smoking. We have heard about them already today, particularly powerfully from those who have worked directly in the medical environment. We have seen significant successes where we have acted on smoking in the past. I remember when the ban on smoking in indoor public spaces came into effect in Scotland, a first in the UK. It was a bit controversial, but not for long. It has undoubtedly hugely improved our environment and, importantly, our health outcomes. We have seen an important decrease in the numbers of smokers, but let us be real—there are still far too many lives being destroyed by smoking.

I am very glad that Scotland has been in front of the curve on these issues, whether that be with the indoor ban, the overhaul of tobacco sale and display, the ambitious goal of a smoke-free Scotland by 2034 or an issue that I have often spoken about here, the consultation on disposable vapes. The direction of travel is welcome. The SNP welcomes the collaborative step towards creating a smoke-free generation. It is not just us—the public are looking for action too. Action on Smoking and Health tells us that the largest poll of public opinion conducted to date—over 13,000 adults were polled—found 69% in support, including over half of all current smokers.

I watched with some despair—a little bit like I watched some of the proceedings in the House today—media interviews this morning where the right hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) said some of the things she repeated here in the Chamber. She said:

“I don’t know why this legislation is being brought forward”.

I would have thought that was pretty obvious really, but let me help her with that: it is to stop people dying. She then said, as she has again during the debate, that this is “unconservative” legislation. To be fair, I know absolutely nothing about being a Conservative and I am very much OK with that, but what a bizarre statement. Surely regardless of our varying political views, we can look at the health impacts of smoking and say they is not the future we want, and not the damage, harm and heartbreak we want for future generations.

Let us be clear that any arguments put forward about personal choice or personal freedom make no sense at all when we are talking about children and a highly addictive substance. Smoking is not a free choice; it is an addiction. Nicotine is a horribly addictive substance. That is why this is a positive and necessary move, and one widely welcomed, including by Asthma and Lung UK. That organisation points to the significant harm to future generations if we do not act now, and highlights the enormous cost to the NHS if we do not take this preventative action when we have the opportunity to do so.

Scottish Government Public Health Minister Jenni Minto MSP has welcomed the Bill, pointing out that Scotland has been a world leader on a range of tobacco control measures. While there has been a steady reduction in the proportion of people smoking, we know it still damages lives and kills more than 8,000 people a year in Scotland. If we do not act, we know perfectly well what the impact of that inaction will be.

We also know that smoking causes and exacerbates health inequalities, which is exactly why we need to have a tobacco-free Scotland. Indeed, Mark Rowland, chief executive of the Mental Health Foundation, points out:

“Smoking harms disproportionally affect those with poor mental health and stopping smoking has been shown to be as effective as anti-depressants. The Tobacco and Vapes Bill is a once in a generation opportunity to prevent the known mental and physical harms that smoking causes and regulate commercial interests from undermining the health of future generations.”

Asthma and Lung UK notes that the harms of tobacco are not equally distributed. In fact, smoking is responsible for half of the difference in life expectancy between the richest and poorest in society. That generational nature of tobacco addiction means that children born today to parents who smoke are four times as likely to take up smoking themselves and to find it harder to quit. So the impact of smoking in terms of generational inequality and harm is clear and known, and we should aim to change that.

I am grateful to Asthma and Lung UK, and to the many other groups that sent me briefing materials. The breadth and range of organisations, including many medical and health groups, that have been in touch to urge me to support improvements in health and to stop future generations becoming addicted to tobacco, is very interesting and speaks to the wide spectrum of those determined to stop this harm, including, as we have heard, a majority of the public and retailers.

I would like to spend a little time talking about vapes, particularly disposable vapes. To nobody’s surprise, I am going to be positive in my support for any and all measures to arrest the tidal wave of children vaping, which should absolutely chill us all. The health impacts on children are terrifying, and that is only the ones we know about. My view is very firmly that all disposable vapes should be banned now, immediately. We should deal with the utmost urgency with the significant harms these devices are causing to our environment and to eye-watering numbers of children. Which of us can seriously say they are confident it is not their children? Members are deluding themselves if they believe that is the case.

[Dr Caroline Johnson]

As the hon. Lady knows, as we worked on this subject together, I brought forward a ten-minute rule Bill to ban disposable vapes last year. The measures in that Bill do not form part of the legislation today, because this is health legislation, but the banning of disposable vapes forms part of a statutory instrument that has been brought forward as environmental legislation. Does she welcome that?

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s intervention. As she knows, it is important for us to look at disposable vapes in the round, including their devastating environmental effects as well as the terrible impacts they have on the health of our young people. Whichever angle we look from, these are devices of which we have no need and that we should get rid of as soon as possible, before they cause any more harm.

[Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)]

The proliferation of vapes has happened almost overnight. Does my hon. Friend share the concerns of my constituent, who runs a newsagent and tobacconist, that he is holding the fort on legislation about the sale of tobacco, yet vapes are not subject to the same controls? He may refuse somebody because he does not think they are of age to buy a vape, but he finds they just go down the street to purchase it at another shop that does not have the controls and responsibilities that he has as a tobacco salesperson.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that important point. I can understand the concerns of her constituent; these devices are far too accessible and far too easily available. They are in all of our schools and on all of our high streets. We need to open our eyes to the damage that is being done. ASH Scotland does great work in that regard. It tells us that, in Scotland, data from the health behaviour in school-aged children survey showed that current e-cigarette use—that means those who have used them in the last 30 days—among 15-year-olds increased from 7% in 2018, which I would have thought was scary enough, to a horrifying 25% in 2022. Obviously we are a bit beyond that now, so I wonder exactly what the figure is, but we have heard enough in the Chamber today to know that, whatever that current figure is, it should cause us grave concern.

These products are designed to be attractive. They are undoubtedly attractive—we have all seen them. They are disposable, so young people can chuck them before their parents find out, they are pocket-money prices, and they are appealing—green gummy bear flavour, anyone? In fact, the green gummy bear flavoured one is on sale for £1.50, which is a disgrace. Vapes should not be accessible in that way, and should certainly not be sold at £1.50. They could not be designed any more obviously to attract young people. Very often, we are talking about children who have never smoked, but who are now getting hooked on these vapes and getting hooked on nicotine. There is also the worry about the unknown harms that vapes cause to their bodies and their health. The sooner that we can change all of that the better.

I also have a personal gripe: vapes being advertised via sports. There is no reason for that—no justification at all. Yes, I am looking at Blackburn Rovers among others. When I raised the matter previously, Blackburn Rovers, based in the vaping capital of the UK, said:

“At no point during our long-standing relationship has the idea that the Totally Wicked brand might appeal disproportionately to children been raised, and we have seen no evidence to suggest that our sponsorship has encouraged an uptake of vaping among children.”

Well, I am raising it, and raising it again. I urge all sports clubs—because there are others—to have serious thought on this. We want to see our sporting heroes as positive influences on our young people and their health and wellbeing.

To be clear, I support measures to help people stop smoking. It is hard to do and all help is welcome, but that help does not come in the form of candy-coloured, candy-flavoured, pocket money-priced disposable vapes. Let us deal seriously with smoking cessation. Let us deal seriously with the terrible harms caused to our young people by disposable vapes, and let us have the backbone to take the chance now to stop smoking killing so many of our loved ones.

I wish to end by reflecting on the words of William Roberts, chief executive of the Royal Society For Public Health, who said:

“Smoking continues to cut lives short, killing up to two in three long-term users, and placing significant strain on an already overstretched health and social care system. Protecting future generations from the dangers of tobacco is vital if we want to build a healthier future. It is vital that the Bill passes and MPs of all political stripes put prevention at the heart of public policy when it comes to protecting our health.”

I sincerely hope that we do.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

I rise in support of the Government’s Bill. One of the first speakers this afternoon was my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Dr Evans), who talked about his first job in respiratory medicine. My first job as a doctor was in adult respiratory medicine, too, and I spent a lot of time looking after patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, intermittent claudication and lung cancer, and that taught me that smoking causes not just premature death, but substantial, debilitating, miserable disability that can go on for many years. I therefore support the Government in doing all they can to reduce the number of smokers.

Some people have talked today about the freedom for an adult to choose to do what they want, but we already make changes to what adults can do. We already restrict their freedoms. For example, we tell adults that they must put a seatbelt on when they get in the car. They must wear a helmet when they ride a motorcycle. They cannot drink alcohol before they get in a car, and they cannot drive down the motorway at 150 mph. So we already make restrictions for people’s safety on that basis.

I do think that gradually increasing the age is inelegant, as my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine), the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee, put it, and will be challenging to enforce. But the alternative—to ban smoking outright—would be difficult, because it is an addictive substance. If we banned an addictive substance overnight, we would criminalise those already addicted. By doing it in advance and gradually increasing the age, we will instead not criminalise people for being addicted, because they will not get addicted in the first place, at least in principle.

I want to focus most of my remarks on vaping. I have been campaigning on vaping for some time, because I am concerned about the snowballing number of children who are addicted to it. Indeed, last year I introduced a ten-minute rule Bill to try to ban disposable vapes, which have been the most attractive vapes to children and cause the most environmental damage. At the time, 1.3 million vapes a week were being used—it is now up to 5 million. They are almost impossible to recycle in practice because the lithium batteries are difficult to recycle, and the nicotine gets soaked into the plastic, which makes that difficult to recycle as well.

I understand the need for adults to have something to help them stop smoking, but vapes are not just a stop-smoking device; we should look at them as an alternative addiction. Earlier in my campaigning, when I spoke to the industry, I said, “What is it with all these flavours?” I was told, “Well, the thing is, if someone tries to stop smoking using nicotine gum, they use the nicotine gum—or something—as a stop-smoking device. So they go from smoking, to gum, to nothing. If we give them vapes that taste of tobacco or are bland, they go from smoking, to vaping, to nothing. If we give them cherry cola-flavoured vapes, they go from smoking, to vaping cherry cola, to vaping mango and to vaping blueberry. They remain one of our customers and continue to use our product.” The industry is trying to create a new generation of addicts to make itself billions of pounds.

I can understand why the industry wants to make the money, but the way it is doing so is, in my view, immoral. In particular, its marketing of these things at children is immoral. A grown-up may wish to have a cherry cola-flavoured vape, but he or she does not need to have a unicorn milkshake-flavoured cherry vape shaped like SpongeBob SquarePants. That is why the flavours are important, and I welcome the Government’s measures to deal with flavours, colours, shapes and packaging.

What are the risks of vaping? As others have said, education is really important on that. For our children, in the short term, its powerful addiction causes problems with concentration, with some having to leave lessons because they cannot cope until the end of a double lesson without vaping. In some cases, as we have heard, it causes chest symptoms and can cause collapse. In the long term, the simple answer is that we just do not know.

A recent University College London study showed that DNA methylation—modification of DNA—occurs in people who vape. Does that show that vaping causes cancer? No, it does not. Time will tell us that, but it suggests at least that it might. That is why we must be extremely careful with our children. Adolescents will always experiment with substances because it is in the nature of adolescence to experiment with boundaries, but we need to ensure that we take as much care of them as we possibly can.

In particular, I welcome clause 10, which will allow the provisions to be extended to other nicotine products. The industry is making billions of pounds, and it will continue trying to flex to try to keep people addicted to nicotine. We can see that today. A search on the internet shows that Tesco is selling 20 nicotine pouches for £6.50. Those tiny pouches of up to 12 mg of nicotine—about 10 cigarettes-worth—are placed under a person’s gums and will release those 10 cigarettes of nicotine over an hour. They are sold in flavours called “Ice Cool”, Bergamot Wildberry”, “Mocha” and “Elderflower”. Does the House see a pattern here? That will be the next thing, and that is why I welcome the clause, which will allow the Government to reflect, if they want, on new forms of nicotine use.

I have some questions for the Minister. The Health Act 2006 prevents smoking in enclosed public spaces, on public transport and in certain other areas. Why has that not been extended to vaping? Also, as I was walking through Westminster the other day, I saw a big red Transport for London bus advertising vaping—something I have written to Sadiq Khan about. I wonder whether the Government plan to extend vaping regulations not just to what the package looks like but to the advertising itself.

[Kirsten Oswald]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Dr Johnson]

I will not, because I have only a minute left.

The hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) mentioned the advertising at Blackburn Rovers; again, sports advertising while children are watching is not helpful.

I have a final question for the Minister. Given that this is urgent, we are seeing so many children starting vaping and we want to stop people smoking as soon as possible, why are we waiting to bring in the regulations? Why not bring them in to affect children more quickly?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising those really important points. As I will come on to, we will be putting £30 million of new money each year into trading standards and our enforcement agencies to clamp down on enforcement, and we are making it illegal to sell cigarettes to anybody turning 15 this year. He asks why. It is precisely because we are trying to bring in the Bill with a decent amount of notice so that people can prepare for it, precisely to protect retailers and allow all the sectors that will be impacted to be able to prepare.

I come back to the area where I am seriously on the warpath: targeting kids who might become addicted to nicotine vapes. I went to Hackney to visit some retail shops, where I saw the vape counters right next to the sweet counters. I saw that it is absolutely not about me—it is not about trying to stop me smoking. It is about trying to get children addicted through cynical, despicable methods. Sadly, for too many kids, vapes are already an incredible marketing success. One in five children aged between 11 and 17 have now used a vape, and the number has trebled in the last three years.

[Kirsten Oswald]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way as she ploughs through all of this. I wonder whether she can share her views on the advertising of vape products on sports kits and via sports facilities.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom]

The hon. Lady is aware that there is already very restrictive advertising for smoking and vaping. We are very concerned that some advertising is breaching advertising standards regulations, and I will write to retailers specifically about that.

Parents and teachers are incredibly worried about the effect that vapes are having on developing lungs and brains. The truth is that we do not yet know what the long-term impact will be on children who vape. Since I was appointed, I have done everything I can to ensure that this Bill will protect our children. The Government’s position is clear: vaping is less harmful than smoking, but if you don’t smoke, don’t vape—and children should never vape.

We will definitely make sure that people who smoke today continue to have access to vapes as a quit aid, which will absolutely not change, but we cannot replace one generation that is hooked on nicotine in cigarettes with another that is hooked on nicotine in vapes. That is why we are using this Bill to take powers to restrict flavours and packaging, and to change how vapes are displayed in shops. To reassure the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee and my right hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Sir Jake Berry), we plan to consult on that before the end of the Parliament, if practicable. The disposable vapes ban will likely take effect in April 2025—those regulations have already been published.

These are common-sense proposals that strike the right balance between helping retailers to prepare, giving sufficient notice and protecting children from getting hooked on nicotine, while at the same time supporting current smokers to quit by switching to vapes as a less harmful quit aid, supported by £138 million a year. Our approach is realistic for those who smoke now and resolute in protecting children. I am convinced that, just like banning smoking in indoor public places and raising the age of sale to 18, these measures will seem commonsensical to all of us in 10 years’ time. In decades to come, our great-grandchildren will look back and think: why on earth did they not do it sooner? I urge all right hon. and hon. Members to vote for this Bill as the biggest public intervention in history. I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Cass Review

Kirsten Oswald Excerpts

Monday 15th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call the SNP spokesperson.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

I am grateful for advance sight of the statement.

Nobody’s identity should be up for debate, and nor should it be used as a political football. Dr Cass said in her report:

“Polarisation and stifling of debate do nothing to help the young people caught in the middle of a stormy social discourse, and in the long run will also hamper the research that is essential to finding the best way of supporting them to thrive.”

That polarisation is the last thing needed by young people in accessing care, their families and the NHS staff working hard to care for them. Does the Secretary of State agree that we must all remain respectful at all times when discussing these important issues, and that decisions on this and any other type of treatment should rightly be made by clinicians, not politicians?

Dr Cass explicitly makes the point that her report is not about questioning trans identities or rolling back access to healthcare for young trans people. Indeed, supporting and improving the gender identity healthcare system for all, including children and young people, is what we should be focused on. So can the Secretary of State confirm today whether any additional funding will be made available to ensure that young trans people can access the quality healthcare they need and deserve?

Finally, on conversion practices, the Government Equalities Office said last month in an answer to a written question:

“The Government expects to deliver a draft Bill that takes account of the independent Cass review”.

Can the Secretary of State provide an update on what conversations she has had with Cabinet colleagues on how the Cass review will influence the UK Government’s legislative proposals on banning conversion practices, and when can we expect them to be published?

[Victoria Atkins]

I encourage both the Scottish National party in Scotland and Labour in Wales—health is devolved in those countries, of course—to respond as quickly as possible to the findings of the review. The hon. Lady asks whether it is Barnett-ised. For these purposes, our work to ensure that the clinics meet the needs of our population in England is not additional money. We are re-prioritising within NHS budgets to ensure that the services are spread across the country. I encourage the Scottish nationalists to prioritise the needs of their children and young people in the same way.

I would also gently make the point that, when it comes to the atmosphere of this debate, I do not believe it has been helped by the SNP’s highly controversial Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021. I note, for example, the behaviour and engagement on Twitter of very high-profile people in Scotland, and the impact that it has had when people have dared to name activists in this arena. I would also ask the Scottish Labour party to explain why it helped the SNP to pass that Act, because to me this seems to be all about the atmosphere.