Cost of Living

Debate between Ian Murray and Alan Brown

Tuesday 16th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

I am very pleased to be able to speak in today’s SNP Opposition day debate on the cost of living crisis, because for thousands of my own constituents—just as this is true for Members right across this House—this is the most pressing issue facing all households. After coming through the pandemic, millions of people have found the biggest health crisis in our lifetime being replaced by the biggest financial crisis in our lifetime, most of it compounded by this Government’s own decisions.

Bills are continuing to rise, and that is against a backdrop of wages failing to grow. The average Scottish worker’s wage is now £800 lower in real terms than it was when Labour was last in government. In my own constituency, it is almost £3,000 lower. At the same time, the price of everyday essentials has risen by an average of £3,500 since 2019. The cost of a typical food shop is up by £700 a year, and food inflation is far outstripping actual inflation, as we have heard. Transport costs are up by £800 and everyday fuel bills are up by almost £1,500. So it is little wonder that so many people are struggling to make ends meet. It is the No. 1 issue my constituents contact me about, and I am sure that is the same for every MP in this House.

The crisis shows no signs of abating; in fact, it is getting worse as the Government’s sticking plaster attitude to politics begins to run out. We used to say that too many are having to choose between heating and eating—we have used that phrase in this House a number of times—but it is becoming much more apparent that some are unable to choose as they cannot do either. Under Labour, we used to celebrate the fact that millions had been lifted out of poverty. Scotland’s two Governments are doing a very good job of thrusting them all back in—and more.

Despite what we have heard from the Conservatives—we will continue to hear this today, no doubt—about the miserly attempts by this Government to resolve the crisis, let us not forget that this crisis was made in Downing Street. They will blame and they have blamed covid and Ukraine, but we have had 13 failed years of this Government. Covid and Ukraine have merely hastened the chickens coming home to roost. Just nine short months ago, the former Prime Minister and the former Chancellor crashed the British economy with a reckless plan to give unfunded tax breaks to the very richest. The Conservative party crashed the economy, but there is no contrition and no acknowledgment of that.

The shortest-serving Prime Minister in history has left a long-lasting legacy of economic misery that ordinary working people up and down this country will be paying for for many years, and every Conservative MP who supported that reckless Budget was complicit and continues to be complicit. They are complicit in the Tory premium on everyone’s mortgages; they are complicit in the Tory premium on everyone’s food shop; they are complicit in the Tory premium on everyone’s energy bills; they are complicit in the Tory premium on everyone’s cost of living. And while being complicit in the premium, they are complicit in the discount on everyone’s pay.

Because while the former Prime Minister blew the doors off, this is a crisis that has been bubbling away for a long time. Growth in our economy has stagnated for more than a decade. In fact, had the economy continued to grow at the rate it did under the last Labour Government, we would have about £40 billion more to spend our public services and tackling the cost of living, without raising a single tax. That is the elephant in the room for the Conservatives. [Interruption.] They chunter from the Government Benches without any contrition for the fact that they crashed the economy and everyone is paying the price.

Since 2019 alone, there have been no less than 24 separate tax rises, all implemented by the current Prime Minister as Prime Minister or by the current Prime Minister when he was Chancellor. The tax and no spend Chancellor is now the tax and no spend Prime Minister, taking even more from the pockets of those that can least afford it at a time when they need every penny they can get.

Let me mention the story of constituent who came to see me worried about losing their family home because of higher mortgage rates. Those interest rate rises are a direct result of the Tories’ inflation crisis and the crashing of the economy. He said to me that he may lose his family home to pay for this Government being out of touch and their economic incompetence. Just think about that for a minute: a family losing their home as they can no longer afford their mortgage because of decisions made by this Government.

After 13 years, Britain is forecast to have the worst growth in the G7. In fact, if our economy continues along this growth path, by 2030 Britain will be less well off than Poland. The Government just do not get it, and they do not get the cost of living crisis. It is affecting everyone, with a disproportionate impact on the young, the old, the disabled, students and of course, as always, the poorest. The Government are out of touch beyond comprehension and should be out of time.

It is interesting, however, that in the motion and the amendment both the SNP and the Conservatives attack the Labour party. The SNP’s motion rightly talks about the damage caused by the Conservatives’ Brexit. Putting to one side the fact that this is partly an attempt to hide the SNP’s own complicity in the cost of living crisis, the mess the Tories have made of Brexit has undermined our country: we believe that and agree with the SNP on that. The Conservatives failed to negotiate a good deal with the European Union despite their “oven-ready” promises, and instead have left the country with a deal so thin and deficient that it has had lasting repercussions. Their entire Brexit project was driven by their own party interest rather than the national interest. Ever since, the Government have continued to weaken the relationships with our European neighbours and friends, with disastrous consequences for jobs, businesses and Britain’s place in the world. They are viewed by our European and international colleagues as untrustworthy law breakers.

But the SNP motion is completely wrong: Labour does not support a damaging Tory Brexit. The SNP playbook reeks of desperation and SNP Members absolutely know it. [Interruption.] They chunter, and they use that same line again and again, but I remind the House of their track record on Brexit: they would have taken Scotland out of the EU had they won the independence referendum in 2014; they spent less on campaigning to stay in the EU than they did on chasing 3,500 votes in the Shetland Scottish parliamentary by-election; they abstained on a vote in this House that would have delivered a customs union; they pressed for a general election in 2019 for their own party interest rather than continuing to try to fight the Government’s warped Brexit strategy; and we must remember that when the Division bell rang in this House to either back the thin trade and co-operation agreement or plunge the country into no deal, the SNP chose no deal. This Government have fundamentally failed to improve anything and the Brexit situation in the UK has been bad, but no deal would have been immeasurably inferior. Worse still, the SNP has a proposition for a separate Scotland that is incompatible with EU treaties for a new state wishing to join.

[Alan Brown]

Is it not the case that the reason we are not in the customs union is that some Labour MPs backed the Tories, and is it not the case that there are now two Baronesses in the House of Lords who were Labour MPs and have been rewarded for their work in helping deliver a hard Brexit—Baroness Gisela Stuart and Baroness Kate Hoey? That is where Labour were back then.

[Ian Murray]

Those two Baronesses were put into the House of Lords by the Conservative party, not the Labour party, and the reason they are in there and not in here is that they were on the wrong side of history. I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to what actually happened in this House in the two major votes when we had the indicative vote process in this House: I do not remember exactly now, but I think there were 42 SNP MPs, and they abstained on the customs union and the vote was lost by six—and that apparently was our fault. Let me emphasise again that on 12 or maybe 19 December, the Division bell rang in this House to either back the deal, which was not ideal—in fact it was a pretty disastrous deal—or back what was even worse, no deal, and the SNP chose no deal. That is what happened and that is what the Whip record in this place shows. The SNP’s Brexit and EU positions are as dishonest as they are broken.

The next Labour Government will build a closer relationship with the EU so that our businesses have the opportunity to grow and to create wealth and high-quality jobs across Britain. We see the trade and co-operation agreement as the floor of our national interest and not the ceiling, as the current Government do, and it will be up to the next Labour Government after the next election to renegotiate the TACA in 2025, as stated in the agreement. We will tear down trade barriers to help our businesses, we will support our world-leading scientists and service sectors, we will strengthen our security co-operation to keep us all safe and we will turn the UK into a green superpower, working with our EU neighbours and international partners. All of that will be done while repairing our tattered relationship and regaining the trust of others.

There is a reality that the SNP never acknowledges: the UK did leave the EU, and we cannot just wish that away. I know SNP Members like to promise the undeliverable because they know they will never have to deliver it, but anything other than saying that to the public is completely and utterly dishonest. It is only through sustainable economic growth that we can resolve the cost of living crisis, and that is exactly what Labour will deliver after the next general election.

Unsurprisingly, the SNP’s motion fails to mention that the SNP has been in charge of the Scottish economy for the last 16 years. A Scot who was finishing school when the SNP came to power is now in their mid-30s, perhaps with a family of their own, and they have seen that, much like with the UK Government, economic growth has been an afterthought, with Scottish businesses dismissed and jobs shipped overseas—although the SNP has done wonders for the UK motorhome industry, of course.

Huge promises have been made off the back of the renewable energy potential in Scotland, but little has been delivered. The truth is that the SNP Government—I give them credit for this—have created tens of thousands of highly skilled, high paid jobs in the renewables sector; it is just that none of them are in Scotland, but are instead in Denmark, Indonesia and everywhere else where that they have shipped off the contracts to foreign shores. So the renewables potential, which could create highly paid jobs and lower energy bills for everyone in Scotland, is being used to lower bills in Scandinavia, while we pay the highest bills in Europe. That is the work of the Scottish Government—nobody else.

When it comes to child poverty, after 16 years of SNP Government a quarter of Scottish kids are growing up in poverty. All the progress made by the previous Labour Government in lifting millions of people out of poverty has been reversed. Even the Children and Young People’s Commissioner for Scotland said the SNP had “absolutely failed” children and young people. SNP Members may enjoy their rhetoric, but their record of delivery is lamentable.

Their record on public services after 16 years of SNP rule is appalling. Their proposition for an independent Scotland is as economically illiterate as the Conservatives who crashed the economy; it is a proposition that will make the current cost of living crisis look like a tea party in comparison. Despite the SNP’s recent statements—including by their Westminster deputy leader, the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mhairi Black), who opened this debate—that they do not want to rid us of this Tory Government, I can assure them and the people of Scotland that a Labour Government will transform the country for every part of our country, because we have credible, fully costed solutions to the cost of living crisis.

The first thing we would do is introduce a proper windfall tax on the oil and gas giants, something repeatedly opposed by the leader of the SNP at Westminster until the polls showed it was popular. [Interruption.] SNP Members chunter again, but the record shows that when we brought to the House our proposition to introduce a windfall tax on the oil and gas sector, the SNP did not support it. Over the last year, the Conservatives have left more than £10 billion on the table which could have been realised by backdating the tax to January 2022, as Labour has been calling for, closing the tax loopholes the Prime Minister helpfully put into his windfall tax and taxing at the same rate as Norway. It is simply not right that oil giants are raking in unexpected billions of pounds off the back of British families. The next Labour Government will put an end to that injustice while the SNP sit on their hands, merely carping from the Opposition Benches.

The money raised from that would help Labour alleviate the pressure on families across Britain and would pay for our plan to help energy-intensive industries such as food manufacturers and processors with the cost of energy, helping to keep down prices in the supermarket. That point was also made by the Minister, although his means of doing that was not the same. We would cut business rates for small businesses, paid for by taxing the online giants, who have raked in huge profits in recent years while our high streets have suffered, and we would reverse the Conservatives’ decision to hand the top 1% of savers a tax break, while introducing specific measures to keep doctors in work. We would close the non-dom tax loophole—much to the frustration of the Prime Minister—and break the Tories’ high-tax, low-growth trap that is breaking our economy.

Listening to the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South, it would seem that none of that matters and that we would be just as well off to keep the Tories. I do not agree, I am not sure that her constituents agree, and I am sure that the people of Scotland definitely do not agree. If the new First Minister and the SNP really thought that the people of Scotland were on their side, they would put their game playing to one side and call an election in Scotland so that the people of Scotland could choose their next First Minister. While we are on elections, perhaps the best way to resolve the cost of living crisis would be for the UK Government also to call an election so that we can kick this out-of-touch and out-of-time Government to one side.

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Section 35 Power

Debate between Ian Murray and Alan Brown

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ian Murray]

That is a very helpful intervention, because paragraph 14, on the first category of adverse effects, talks about different regimes across the United Kingdom. That, to me, suggests that the Government do not want this to be devolved. There are other devolved issues, such as abortion, that would have cross-border implications. But I would also gently say in response to the hon. Lady that Donald Dewar designed section 35 for the very question that she has just asked—[Interruption.] I hope she will not mind me repeating that he did not envisage all the issues that would come through. Devolution was always a journey for the Labour party and it will continue to be so. The key point was that section 35 was put there to enable the Scottish Parliament to legislate in devolved areas that might have an impact on the rest of the UK, but that it was to be used only as a last resort when there might be a conflict. If the first adverse effect is that the Government do not want different circumstances for gender recognition certificates between Scotland and the rest of the UK, surely they are saying that this should not be devolved.

[Alan Brown]

I agree with a lot of the points the hon. Member is making on devolution. Obviously he has read what we should really be calling the “clutching-at-straws reasons,” rather than the statement of reasons. He mentioned judicial review. I am not a lawyer, but I am sure that, like me, he can read this and see how weak the UK Government’s arguments are. On that basis, and if he believes in the protection of devolution and that Scotland should be able to do things differently, does he not agree with us that the UK Government should drop this action now? The Labour party should be four-square behind the Scottish Parliament on this.

[Ian Murray]

The point that the hon. Gentleman forgets is that this is going to end up in the courts regardless, because the section 35 order has been brought forward. Anyone who prays against it will get a debate and a vote, but the vote is not going to be won. It has already been said that the Government have a majority of 80, and perhaps a working majority of 100 on this issue. This will therefore have to be settled in the courts. As much as I do not want this constitutional battle to be fought on the backs of trans people’s and women’s rights, it would be good if the courts did settle these issues because maybe we could then move on with substance and do what is right by trans people and equality in this country.

Scottish Independence and the Scottish Economy

Debate between Ian Murray and Alan Brown

Wednesday 2nd November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Ian Murray]

I am glad that the hon. Member has accepted it, from whichever seat he is now sitting in.

As I was saying, what has happened will be paid for by ordinary people either through their pay packets or through austerity, because the Government U-turns and change of Prime Minister cannot undo what has been done to Britain’s reputation. Our institutions have been undermined, our standing on the world stage has been diminished, and our credibility as a place to invest has been damaged. The devastation will last for years, maybe decades. As the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber said in his opening speech—I will quote him as accurately as I can—that comes with “massive, massive costs”. But one of the other massive costs would be the break-up of the United Kingdom, because there is no doubt that this Conservative Government are as big a threat to the Union as any nationalist sitting by my side here.

Who have the Conservative party turned to to put out the fire? The arsonist himself. Let us not forget that even before this abject disaster, the now Prime Minister, as Chancellor, delivered the highest tax burden on working people in 70 years, the highest inflation in 40 years and the highest of any G7 country, the largest fall in living standards since records began in the 1970s, continued low growth and stagnant wages.

We have a Prime Minister who increased the tax for everyone else while he did not think his family should pay it; a Prime Minister who, while every single person in this country suffered under lockdown, was fined for partying in Downing Street; a Prime Minister who left a loophole in the windfall tax so that billions of pounds that could have been put into public services to help people with their energy bills were left on the table; a Prime Minister who lost tens of billions of pounds to covid fraud and shrugged his shoulders; a Prime Minister who was so weak in dealing with the cost of living crisis that he thought that the best and only response was to increase everyone’s national insurance; a Prime Minister who was, as a Member of Parliament, more of a US resident than a UK citizen; a Prime Minister who always puts his party first and the country second; and a Prime Minister without a mandate to govern. As the Leader of the Opposition so aptly put it, in the only competitive election in which the Prime Minister has stood, he was trounced by someone who was in turn beaten by a lettuce.

[Alan Brown]

The hon. Member is making our case for us, given the shambles of a Government that he is talking about. Does that mean that he will go back on his vow to do better together again and that Labour will not stand shoulder to shoulder with the Tories? Will he also call out Labour councils for working in coalition with the Tories, including in Edinburgh?

[Ian Murray]

Let me put it firmly on the record that there is not a coalition in Scotland between Labour and the Conservatives. In the Edinburgh example that the hon. Member talks about, which I know very well because it is my city, the Conservatives are an official opposition party. What SNP Members do not like is that they could not get their leader in as leader of the council.

Let me say to the hon. Member and to SNP voters that the best way to resolve the crisis at the UK level and to stop Scotland being ripped out of the United Kingdom against the will of the Scottish people is to vote Labour in Scottish constituencies at the next general election and have us replace the Government, rather than just shouting at them from the Opposition Benches.

Scottish Devolution Settlement: Retained EU Law

Debate between Ian Murray and Alan Brown

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Westminster Hall

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Murray. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O'Hara) on introducing the debate. It is incredible, in an hour-and-half debate on such an important subject, that I am standing to sum up less than half an hour after it began. That shows a lack of care from many Conservatives, particularly the Scottish Tories.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) said, where are the Scottish Tories? They continually challenge the SNP when we talk about power grabs by the Westminster Government. They always ask us to name one power that has been taken away from the Scottish Parliament. As we have heard, this abolition of EU retained law is not a single power grab, it is a carte blanche undoing of devolution. It allows the UK Government to force standards in Scotland. When trade deals are signed and Westminster wants to diverge from the EU, the Internal Market Bill, for example, can be used to railroad and force those standards on Scotland. It is disgraceful that the Scottish Tories are not here to make a case for the Government and why they want to do this.

It could be argued that Scotland did not technically have full powers in all these remits because it was EU law, but the point of EU law in regulations is that it was agreed by member states. Scotland will no longer have the facility to keep EU retained law and that alignment, if the Westminster Government have their say. We have to remember that the EU single market is the biggest single market in the world. Why do the UK Government want to diverge from standards that allow access to the biggest market in the world? It makes no sense, but again it is a throwback to the British empire and bringing back British sovereignty. It is a falsehood—a fallacy.

We previously heard from Brexiteers that the good thing about being able to diverge from the EU is that we can improve environmental standards. I spoke last week in a debate about sewage discharges into watercourses and on beaches. Before coming to this place, I was a sewerage civil engineer, and I saw at first hand how the Tory Government back then resisted EU legislation to clean up beaches. The UK was known as the dirty man of Europe, and it is no surprise that, now that we have left the EU, the rest of the UK is having a problem with sewage discharges. It cannot be a coincidence. Given that you represent a coastal community, Mrs Murray, you must have concerns about water quality and the sewage discharges that this Government seem to be allowing.

Another Brexit falsehood is the so-called sea of opportunity. Fishing communities were told that they were going to benefit from Brexit, but unfortunately they were sold a pup, to mix my metaphors. That again is proof that whatever the Brexiteers promise never comes to fruition—they are just false promises.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute pointed out, it is ridiculous that we are looking at overturning almost 2,500 pieces of legislation by some false 2023 deadline when we do not even have a functioning Government. That process is retained under the control of the Secretary of State. Previously, he was all about parliamentary sovereignty and scrutiny, but that seems to have gone out the window now that he is a member of the Cabinet. We only have to look at the Henry VIII powers inserted into the Energy Prices Bill on Monday to see that the Government are taking back control on one level—they are taking back control from MPs in the House of Commons. I have grave concerns about that.

As my hon. Friend said, this is about food standards and animal welfare. It is about maintaining standards and having checks in place. Another Brexit dividend is that we do not have enough vets because we have ended freedom of movement—it is ridiculous, and it just shows Brexiteers’ blinkeredness. As my hon. Friend said, this is an existential threat to Scottish agriculture. It is actually an existential threat to the devolution settlement.

On deregulation, I mentioned workers’ rights, and Frances O’Grady of the TUC has highlighted concerns about that. In his speech on the ten-minute rule Bill yesterday, the hon. Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope) attacked workers’ rights and said that the EU working time directive has allowed idleness. That is the attitude. I am sure you have read “Britannia Unchained”, Mrs Murray, which was co-authored by the Prime Minister, who attacked British workers for being lazy, idle and unproductive. That is the attitude at the top of the Government, so what hope do we have when EU retained law is completely abolished?

That brings me to the official Opposition. Of course, Labour has promised to make Brexit work. It is also in favour of a hard Brexit. It does not want freedom of movement or to be in the single market, so what does it stand for when it comes to EU retained law? What is Labour’s vision for the future? It seems to me that it mirrors the Tory vision.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North rightly pointed out that the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 was forced on Scotland, but at the time we were reassured that the idea of retained EU law was somehow going to give us some continuity. It was going to give us protections, and it was shown that we were not going to diverge from the EU. Now the Government’s motives are absolutely clear: that was just another Brexit falsehood, and it is all about divergence and free market opportunities. Who cares about standards as long as it is a free market and prices come down? That is all they care about, not protecting workers’ rights, agriculture and food standards and hygiene.

Another silly example of this Government’s obsession with divergence from the EU is the weights and measures consultation. Why would we want to go back to imperial weights and measures? Scotland exports more manufactured goods to the rest of the world than to England, and weights and measures are important in that. Alignment with metric measurements is the way we do things. Why would we want to change? Last week, an article in New Civil Engineer magazine noted that using thumb measurements or inches might have been fine for a 16th-century carpenter, but today we have alignment with the biggest single market. Even the United States, despite being one of the few countries that still uses imperial measurements, aligns measurements for its exported goods with the metric system. Why would we want to go back on that? How much money would it cost to rip up what we do now? Again, it just shows the Brexit fantasy and falsehoods.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and for raising this, because it is a fallacy that people would want to go back to those kinds of measurements. What the Business Secretary is trying to claim about going back to those measurements is just farcical. Could we perhaps talk about this matter in the bar tonight over 568 ml of beer?

[Alan Brown]

The hon. Gentleman is being slightly flippant, but he makes a good point. That is the thing: the EU did not force the UK to go metric. It was done willingly. The EU allowed pints and other things to be retained as measurements because it was not about the EU imposing its will, but about a sensible way forward over alignment. Of course, it is a rare thing for me to enjoy a 568 ml drink—or a pint—but I might come back and do that at some point.

I look forward to the hon. Gentleman, who is the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, telling us about Labour’s vision for making Brexit work, and why it will not align with the EU, why it does not want to rejoin the single market and why it does not want freedom of movement. I shall conclude there, because I really do want to hear from him and from the new Minister, whom I welcome to his place. Who knows how long he will be in his post, given the current chaos? I hope he will address these serious points and explain this Government’s rationale.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Murray]

The powers argument is a consequence of what the UK Government are trying to do. They want to get rid of all this EU law and this is the way they want to do it, so it is an ideologically driven piece of legislation and policy. The consequences of that are all the consequences he laid out in his speech.

There is one thing I want to say about power grabs. We have an argument—whether it be in the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, which is now on the statute book, or in this debate—where the Minister stands up and says, “This is a powers bonanza” and the SNP says, “It is a power grab”. It is probably neither, and it will depend on the decisions made by both Governments about what will happen, which is driven by the desire of the Scottish people. In the past few polls, nearly 70% of Scottish people want both Governments to work together. It surprises me that when the Scottish Government were talking about a power grab in the Internal Market Act, they were hiring all these new civil servants to deal with the new powers that were about to arrive. Of the 157 powers that have been repatriated from the European Union, 130 or 135 of them currently sit with the Scottish Government. These bland statements about power grabs and power bonanzas are rather unfortunate and are probably not of any use to the debate.

I agree with the hon. Member about the consequences that could happen if decisions in Westminster are made in line with how we think they will be made. We only have to look at our inboxes over the past few weeks to see the emails from all the nature organisations, such as the RSPB, as the hon. Member mentioned, Greenpeace and others, which were apoplectic at the possible consequences for protections from this attack on nature across the whole of the UK. The Minister has to tell us the driving force behind this. I think the Minister or the Secretary of State said that the reason for this piece of legislation is that if it was not in place removing or amended outdated EU laws could take several years. I ask the Minister to give us an example—if we did not have this Bill—of a piece of EU law that would take several years to repeal. I bet he cannot give us one because it is just another line from the Secretary of State’s speech that makes no reference to the reality of the situation.

The key point is that we were all told at the Brexit referendum that EU law would be repatriated to the EU, but it would be the minimum standard and it would be built on. We seem to have a bonfire of regulation and a clumsy drive from this Govt and the previous two Conservative Governments since the EU referendum to rip up regulations and turn the UK into the Singapore of Europe. Rather than working in the national interest, it is always about what is in the party’s interests.

Hon. Members have asked some questions. The hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) rightly talked about the impact on devolution. All these things have an impact on devolution. Asymmetric devolution across the United Kingdom gives us these kinds of issues, and it is driven by a Government that wishes to create them. We have a situation where the UK Government and the Scottish Government want to rip up the devolution settlement. That is just a fact. Whether the Government realise it, every time they bring a piece of retained EU legislation to this House, they just give succour to the nationalists who wish to rip up the devolution settlement to deliver independence.

While we have just had a huge discussion about this Conservative Government wrenching the UK out of the European Union with a hard Brexit, we have the hard Scexiteers here, who want to do exactly the same. [Interruption.] They like that, don’t they? They are hard Scexiteers who wish to do exactly the same, and it is not my words: it is the words of the economic paper that the First Minister launched on Monday. There would be a hard border between Scotland and England for goods, services and probably people. They want to seamlessly rejoin the EU with a 12% deficit, using someone else’s currency with no central bank as a lender of last resort with no money. The paper itself has been trashed by the Institute for Fiscal Studies. It was trashed by Robert McAlpine, who is a massive supporter of independence, who asks, “How do we get out of this crazy mess?” While we have a discussion about hard Brexiteers, we have three hard Scexiteers here—I will give way to one of them.

[Alan Brown]

I am trying not to bite here, but I will go back to the question I posed. The hon. Member mentioned a hard Brexit and said it is what the Tories are doing. Is it not the case that Labour favours a hard Brexit? The hon. Member has not mentioned why Labour is against re-joining the single market, nor defended why Labour is against freedom of movement. Does the hon. Member agree with the shadow Chancellor who thinks that the UK needs to process and deport people back to their countries more quickly? That seems to be the Labour view, and it is no different from the Government.

[Ian Murray]

That is more fantasy from the SNP. I find it strange that, when we have a Government on their knees bringing forward a piece of legislation that ultimately could undermine devolution, the main part of the hon. Member’s speech was an attack on the Labour party. That maybe tells us that our ascendancy in Scotland is worrying the SNP.

Let me say what would have happened. The hon. Member calls the Labour party hard Brexiteers; had the SNP not abstained on the amendment for the customs union it would have passed in Parliament—a matter of public record. The SNP spent less on the EU referendum than it did on the Shetland Scottish parliamentary byelection—to win 3,400 votes. The SNP asks about where we are as a country at the moment. It is perfectly practical for the Labour party, who wish to be the next Government, to try and make Brexit work. The first day that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) walks into No. 10 as the Prime Minister, he is going to face the circumstances of the day, not those that we may wish to find. The first task will be to make what we have got work, the second task will be to build and deepen that relationship with Europe, and the third task, which overarches all of that, is to do what is in the national interest. That is clear.

That shadow Chancellor was actually saying that part of the problem we have in this country with the immigration system is the Home Office not processing applications for asylum quickly enough, which leaves the massive backlog of tens of thousands that we have at the moment. If hon. Members had listened to what she actually said, that is what she was referring to—which I think is SNP policy? If the Home Office was processing applications in a timely manner, and in a humane way, we could get through applications much quicker, lessening those issues.

Where was I with the hard Scexiteers? I think we had gone through that. I will get on to some of the issues raised about what the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill will do. I hope the Minister will tell us what the Government’s plans are, because this is essentially a theoretical Bill about trashing, amending, or otherwise, EU retained law in this country. The Government always have those grand phrases, but they do not tell us what they are going to do. Can the Minister answer my first question: what would take several years if it was not in the Bill? Will the Minister give us an example about what he wishes to do with some of those regulations? I would be happy to listen to that.

The Labour party wants to use that platform to put in a new deal for working people. That is a prime policy example. That would give people workers’ rights from day one and it would build on EU regulations that we have already had. Incidentally, the UK has always gold-plated EU regulations. In fact, Conservative Governments have always gold-plated EU regulations. The Labour party would end fire and rehire and zero-hour contracts—is that part of the Government’s strategy? We would make work more family friendly and flexible. We would strengthen trade union rights, which would raise pay and conditions. We would roll out fair pay agreements, and we would use Government procurement to ensure that we could lift standards, pay, conditions and skills right across the country.

Our new deal for working people is a practical example of what we would do with regulations, rather than a Bill that says we will rip up every piece of EU regulation without saying what we would do instead, while, at the same time, undermining devolution.

I will ask one final, two-part question to the Minister. What discussions is he having with the devolved Administrations about the Bill, and about trying to achieve a consensus so that legislative consent motions can be passed? The Sewel convention—which was right—was put on a statutory footing under the Scotland Act 2016 by an amendment brought forward by the Labour party. We cannot just disregard that; the Sewel convention is clear that the UK Government will not legislate in devolved areas where they do not need to. If they do, a legislative consent motion must be positively passed by the Scottish Parliament—not the Scottish Government. What discussions is he having to make sure those legislative consent motions can come forward?

I am grateful that the debate has been brought forward, and that we have had the hard Scexiteers and hard Brexiteers arguing over the EU. However, yet again we have had a combined 37 minutes from three SNP Members, and they have not told us one iota about how they can get back into the European Union with the huge deficits they have, no currency, no central bank, no lender of last resort and no immigration policy—[Interruption.] Now they are claiming that I am slagging them off, but they spent a lot of their speeches slagging off the Labour party. I look forward to the Minister answering some questions, and maybe at some point in the future we will get some answers from the SNP as well.

Cost of Living Increases

Debate between Ian Murray and Alan Brown

Monday 24th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Ian Murray]

I thank my constituency neighbour for that question. I hope that she watched with great interest the speech of the leader of the Labour party just a few weeks ago, and, indeed, the other speech he made before Christmas about making Brexit work. The reality is that this Conservative Government have given us a position whereby Brexit does not work. We have a thin deal that we said would fall apart, and it is falling apart. What we have to do is to get into power to fix the problems with that and to build on that relationship. That is the reality of where we are.

I listened with interest to the Minister not answering the hon. and learned Lady’s question about HGV drivers and the cost of food and supply chains. He rightly said that there is an ageing workforce, but that shows that the Government have not planned for the medium to long term in that regard—it is as if everybody just got older overnight, rather than there being some plan. It sums up the Government that they have not had the foresight to see some of those problems coming. None of the promises that the Brexiteers opposite made to us about sunny uplands have come to pass; indeed, the opposite has come to pass, as we can see in the supermarkets and in prices themselves.

Those of us elected to this place owe it to the millions of people across the country who face such hardship to do everything we can to alleviate and change it. In the UK in 2022, nobody should have to choose between heating and eating. The Government have shown no compassion and not even pretended to care. Let us remember that they voted to cut the £20 a week universal credit uplift for the poorest in this country and refused to feed school kids in the holidays. The only response to the crisis from the Government so far, in all the noise of partygate and everything else, was when they snuck out a £4.3 billion fraud write-off from covid funds and business loans, which was branded “nothing less than woeful” by their very own anti-fraud Minister, Lord Agnew, shortly before he resigned at the Dispatch Box a few hours ago in the other place. Maybe the Minister would like to do the same this afternoon: get to the Dispatch Box, resign, grab his folder and suitcase full of wine, and head for the hills. Any Minister with any kind of morality would be doing just the same thing.

I am pleased that the SNP has called the debate, but it is not a bystander in this crisis either. The SNP is the Government in Scotland and has been for 15 years. A 33-year-old today, struggling to feed their family while paying their energy bills, has spent their entire adult life under the Scottish National party Scottish Government. Such a person might wonder why the SNP did not support legislation put forward by Labour colleagues in Holyrood to enshrine as a human right the right to food. Perhaps we might be able to find out this afternoon why not.

Parliamentary time will be taken up “in weeks” with legislation for another referendum. People are having to choose between heating and eating, but that will be the SNP’s priority in Parliament and elsewhere for months. I accept that Parliament has the capacity to do other things, but nobody should be under any illusions. All the oxygen in the vacuum will be taken up in Scotland with another referendum or the thought of another piece of referendum legislation. That is the reality of what will happen. With the paralysis in this place, the Scottish Government are obsessed by what gets them out of bed in the morning, rather than the real, everyday issues of Scots.

[Alan Brown]

While the hon. Member is on the action of the Scottish Government, I presume he is going to commend them for bringing forward the £20 a week child payment as one way to help to mitigate the poverty being imposed by Westminster. Earlier he said that we all have a duty in this place to try to help people with the cost of living and energy crisis. In which case, why did Labour vote for the Nuclear Energy (Financing) Bill, the impact statement for which said that it could add up to £63 billion to household energy bills? How on earth is that helping people with the energy crisis?

[Ian Murray]

What a valuable and timely intervention that was, because I was just about to talk about the child payment. Indeed, we campaigned for the £20 child payment for some time in the Scottish Parliament and were delighted that the Scottish Government eventually introduced it. However, it is a key, targeted intervention that helps to address child poverty, so what we would like now—all the Scottish charities are saying this—is for it to be doubled to £40 a week.

Leaving the EU: Impact on the UK

Debate between Ian Murray and Alan Brown

Wednesday 17th March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Ian Murray]

That was a boring and predictable intervention. The hon. Gentleman knows that we voted for the deal to avoid the very no-deal that his Government were threatening. He also knows—he is just about to rejoin the Scottish Parliament, assuming he wins his seat, and I hope he gets the rules in train before he does so—that that is not what the debate was about in the Scottish Parliament. It was about something completely different, not whether Members there accepted or did not accept the deal. The hon. Gentleman knows that not to be the case. [Interruption.] Rather than chuntering, it would be much better for the hon. Gentleman to give some reassurance to the fishing industry and the Scottish farming industry. This is what they are saying to us. It is what they are putting on the record. I am not making this up. It might be a good starting point to give them some reassurance and to work together to resolve some of the problems.

The trade deal leaves a huge amount of uncertainty and falls short of what is needed and what was promised. Scottish farmers are clear that they will not stand by and see a weakening of import standards for food and allow Scottish and British produce to be undercut by others. We need concrete guarantees that food and farming standards will remain at least as high as they are now.

What about services? The financial services sector in Scotland maintains 162,000 jobs and accounts for nearly 10% of GDP. Across the UK, the financial services sector contributed £75.6 billion to the Treasury in the year before covid. There is nothing in the agreement for the 80% of our economy that supports millions of jobs and livelihoods. I hope the Minister can tell us that the EU-UK memorandum of understanding with the financial services sector that is due to be signed by the end of March will give the sector what it was promised. The Government need to secure long-term agreement with the EU on financial services equivalence and to improve access to EU markets for the wider professional services industry, so that the UK and Scotland can remain global hubs for financial services.

I have mentioned just three sectors—the hon. Member for Glasgow Central mentioned others—that have been disadvantaged by this deal, but we could have talked about so many others, including chemicals, petrochemicals and energy. The list is endless. No wonder there is frustration, as it transpires that deals could have been done that would have made things easier for people. We could have stayed in the Erasmus programme. While I welcome aspects of the new Turing scheme, the Government could have done both. That would have been a truly global Britain—stay in Erasmus+ and do the Turing scheme for non-EU countries.

We could have had a deal for our performers and production tours—it was on offer, but it was turned down. Why? Government policy seems to be to cut off our nose to spite our face. I hope that a solution can be found, or it will be more damage to another jewel in the UK’s crown—our creative industries. Those issues do not need Government platitudes. We want not more promises to be broken, but action and resolution now. The Brexit reality includes everything from shellfish rotting on a motorway to stopping our musicians touring Europe. The sunny uplands that we were promised mean a 4% hit to GDP—the equivalent of £3,600 for every household in the UK, according to the House of Commons Library. It is a shame that we do not have time to deal with the Northern Ireland protocol and the effects on the Good Friday agreement.

It is worth coming on to the SNP’s approach to the EU, as the party has initiated this debate in the Chamber. We have heard time and again, in the Chamber and elsewhere, that the UK has left the EU so Scotland needs to leave the UK. The former Labour MP and Europe Minister, Douglas Alexander, said this week in an article in The New European:

“Independence for Scotland would represent a reckless ‘hold my beer’ response to Brexit”.

All of us who campaigned to stay in the EU and strained every sinew to ensure that the case was made are disappointed. Of course we are angry. Many are still grieving after leaving the EU, but if the response is ripping Scotland out of the UK that would add catastrophically to that position.

The UK has left its largest trading partner, the EU. Of course that is bad, and we will hear that throughout the debate. Scotland leaving its largest trading partner, the UK, would be immeasurably worse. We need a remedy for Brexit, not a hugely damaging “I told you so” moment from Scotland. I did not vote remain for my vote to be misappropriated—

[Alan Brown]

We hear a lot about the fact that England is our biggest trading partner—that is true—but does the hon. Gentleman accept that 62% of goods manufactured in Scotland go to the EU, so it is our biggest trader in manufactured goods?

[Ian Murray]

The London School of Economics report—the LSE used to be lauded by the First Minister—said that Scottish independence would be three times worse than Brexit. Everything that the hon. Member for Glasgow Central said has to be multiplied by at least three. Then we can see the impact of what would happen—[Interruption.] Here we go again. I am trying to shine light on the facts of what would happen. I am trying to shine light from the LSE, an organisation that used to be lauded and cited in the Chamber every single day by Scottish National party Members, and all we get is, “Are we better together?” We need answers to those questions. That is what people are crying out for—they want people to be honest and answer those questions.

I did not vote in the EU referendum for my vote to be misappropriated by the nationalists to break up the UK. It is not their vote to do that with. I wonder whether the no-deal SNP regrets spending less on the EU referendum than it did chasing a few thousand votes in its failed bid to win the Scottish parliamentary by-election for Shetland.

The most extraordinary aspect of the debate in Scotland is the SNP’s promising a seamless transition back into the EU if the public vote for a separated Scotland. That is another in a long line of assertions that are not based on fact and not backed by any satisfactory answers. Indeed, we heard the hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) ask the SNP’s finance spokesperson what the currency would be. There was no answer. Can the House imagine the shadow Chancellor or the Chancellor standing at the Dispatch Box unable to tell the country what its currency would be? They would be laughed out of the Chamber. They would have to resign before they reached the Speaker’s Chair.

One thing is for sure: Brexit shows us that breaking up is incredibly hard to do, and I am disappointed again that the SNP has introduced a debate on the EU but not taken any time at all to set out how, why or whether it can get a hypothetically independent Scotland back into the EU. Perhaps it will answer some key questions, as its separation strategy seems to be very similar to the strategy of Nigel Farage and the Brexiteers. It wants to cherry-pick the best bits of the EU, but not take the bits that it knows the public would find unpalatable.

The SNP’s proposition is that Scotland would seamlessly rejoin the EU as an independent nation, but not take the euro, or sign up to Schengen, or meet the deficit and debt requirements, or have its own currency, or meet the exchange rate mechanism rules, or re-enter the common fisheries policy. The sterlingisation plan excludes it from entering the exchange rate mechanism.

Most astonishingly, the Scottish Health Secretary said on “Question Time” last month that Scotland would not need to sign up to the very trade and co-operation agreement that we are debating today between the EU and the UK, which I and the SNP are rallying against in this debate. How is that even possible? Scotland would become an independent nation and would seamlessly go back into the European Union, and then would not even have to implement at the border at Berwick the trade and co-operation agreement that was signed between the UK and the EU? That is just implausible.

We know that the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK, in the hypothetical event that Scotland was ripped out of the UK, would be determined by the very trade and co-operation agreement that was signed on Christmas eve by the Prime Minister. All the problems that are being faced by Scottish industries such as fishing, manufacturing, agriculture, exports and financial services that we might hear about this evening would increase fivefold or more, as the rest of the UK is far and away the largest market for Scottish goods and services. This just does not make sense, and it is about time the SNP faced up to those key questions and was straight with the Scottish public. That is all I ask: be straight with the Scottish public and answer the questions.

Scotland has two Governments making promises to the Scottish people that they cannot deliver, and making promises to the people and businesses of Scotland that they have no intention of delivering. The problem is that the UK Government see the relationship achieved with the limited last-minute deal between the UK and the EU as the ceiling of their ambition—we heard that tonight from the Minister—but we do not. We see it as being the floor from which to build. We need to work hand in hand with industry, business, our trade unions and our European partners and friends to achieve practical solutions so that we can face the challenges thrown up by this deal with the EU and grab those future opportunities.

This deal must be built on; it must be the start, not the end. We have to live in the reality, and while we would not have taken us to this position, that is where we are. The deal has to be about a deeper, mutually beneficial relationship that means businesses can thrive. That means repairing the tattered relationship with our EU partners. It means putting aside the ideological nationalist agenda from both Governments and working in the national interest. Now more than ever, we need what the Scottish public are crying out for, which is both Governments, Scottish and UK, working together to mitigate aspects and disadvantages of covid and Brexit, but I fear that I should not hold my breath.

Scotland: General Election and Constitutional Future

Debate between Ian Murray and Alan Brown

Wednesday 17th March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Ian Murray]

My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head because the priorities of the Scottish people are health, education, covid recovery, the economy, jobs and livelihoods. That is what is important to the Scottish people and poll after poll after poll shows that.

Let us be honest with each other. On the oil price, $114 a barrel was underpinning the entire Scottish economy; it has been less than half of that since the last referendum. On deficits and debt, how will they be dealt with? On pensions, SNP candidates in constituencies up and down Scotland are delivering leaflets promising pensioners that they will double the state pension. Let us be honest with each other. And how would the SNP work with the rest of the UK with regards to the EU?

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

For a start, if we are going to be honest, it is quite clear that, due to the covid restrictions, we do not have people out delivering leaflets right now. If we are talking about honesty, will the hon. Gentleman answer this question: if the voters vote for parties that have a referendum in their manifesto, should that referendum happen to reflect the will of the Scottish people? Will he give us an honest answer?

[Ian Murray]

I will be honest with the hon. Gentleman. The leaflet was delivered in Dumbarton and was posted on social media by the person who delivered it, so that is being honest with each other. Let me just say to him that I am very much in the same place as Sir John Curtice —we cannot extrapolate a single issue from a general election. It is disingenuous to suggest that we should turn this major election, the most important I think in Scotland’s devolution history, into whether or not we should have a referendum on another referendum.