Scotland: General Election and Constitutional Future

Alan Brown Excerpts

Wednesday 17th March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Ian Murray]

My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head because the priorities of the Scottish people are health, education, covid recovery, the economy, jobs and livelihoods. That is what is important to the Scottish people and poll after poll after poll shows that.

Let us be honest with each other. On the oil price, $114 a barrel was underpinning the entire Scottish economy; it has been less than half of that since the last referendum. On deficits and debt, how will they be dealt with? On pensions, SNP candidates in constituencies up and down Scotland are delivering leaflets promising pensioners that they will double the state pension. Let us be honest with each other. And how would the SNP work with the rest of the UK with regards to the EU?

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

For a start, if we are going to be honest, it is quite clear that, due to the covid restrictions, we do not have people out delivering leaflets right now. If we are talking about honesty, will the hon. Gentleman answer this question: if the voters vote for parties that have a referendum in their manifesto, should that referendum happen to reflect the will of the Scottish people? Will he give us an honest answer?

[Ian Murray]

I will be honest with the hon. Gentleman. The leaflet was delivered in Dumbarton and was posted on social media by the person who delivered it, so that is being honest with each other. Let me just say to him that I am very much in the same place as Sir John Curtice —we cannot extrapolate a single issue from a general election. It is disingenuous to suggest that we should turn this major election, the most important I think in Scotland’s devolution history, into whether or not we should have a referendum on another referendum.

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[Paul Holmes]

No, I will not; I do not have much time.

The SNP said in 2014 that an independent Scotland would take 18 months to be set up. What a bizarre claim. No plan for how, and no detail on how—no chance when it comes to May. The SNP’s internal squabbles and factional infighting show that it has no plan for the people of Scotland, and it will make Scotland a poorer place by its obsession with separation, providing no detail on what that means for the people it supposedly serves. The people of Scotland are waking up to the way in which they are being let down by the SNP.

[Alan Brown]

It is good of the hon. Member to tell us what the people of Scotland are thinking at the moment. What is important is how they vote on 6 May. Again, if the people of Scotland vote for parties that have a referendum in their manifesto, surely the claim of right should be respected and the will of the Scottish people should be respected, and there will be a referendum.

[Paul Holmes]

I fully respect the right of the Scottish people. I respect the right of the decision that they made in 2014, and I wish that the hon. Gentleman would show the same respect to the people he serves by accepting that decision, which he and the leader of his party—who I know is in difficulty at the moment—claimed was a once-in-a-generation decision. They should abide by that and not try to mislead the Scottish people. In the next few weeks, I have every confidence that unity and progress will shine through, and many people in Scotland will vote Conservative to keep the Union together. Then, hopefully, the Scottish National party will be given the shock that it really needs.

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[Christian Matheson]

Oh, so it is all our fault. Well, it is the Conservatives’ fault what is happening in Northern Ireland and for driving the Scots away, because the truth is that the SNP is more similar to the Tories than it lets on.

Today, there are two debates led by the SNP, one on constitutional affairs—independence—and one on Brexit. In fact, they are the same debate, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) said, because exactly the same baseless arguments that the Tories made about Brexit, the SNP now makes about Scottish independence. The Tories showed the UK the failings of their own Government and said, “Look, everything will be fine if we are free of the EU.” The SNP is also showing the failings of its own Government and the UK Government and saying, “Look, everything will be fine if we leave the UK.”

In the case of Brexit, every prediction was that we would take a hit to our economy, but that did not matter because we would be free. In the case of Scottish independence, every prediction is that the Scottish economy would take a big hit, but that does not matter, according to the SNP, because it would be free. Both campaigns were and are about narrow nationalism, appealing not to sense, reason or objectivity based on facts, but to emotion stirred by distrust of others. None of the Brexit argument stood up; it was pure ideology. None of the Scottish nationalists’ arguments stands up to scrutiny either; theirs is a pure emotional ideology. I am just waiting for them to roll out “Take back control” as their campaign slogan and the circle will be complete.

[Alan Brown]

I am a wee bit disappointed in the hon. Gentleman’s contribution, because he knows we are better than that. We want a forward-thinking, outward-looking country that is not tied to this backward-looking global Britain. What is wrong with wanting a country where the electorate elect the parliamentarians of their choosing so that they have control?

[Christian Matheson]

I am quite happy for the electorate to elect a party and a Government of their choosing. That is what democracy is.

I implore the people of Scotland not to get conned again by impossible promises; not to be hoodwinked by the mirage of the oasis of independence; not to fall for the same tricks that persuaded people to vote for Brexit, because the same bogus arguments are being deployed now for independence, just in a different context; and not to be seduced by the power of the dark side that is divisive nationalism, because ordinary people in Chester have the same problems as ordinary people in Aberdeen and Inverness and Motherwell, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd) said. If the UK is weaker by leaving the EU—and we are—then Scotland will be weaker by leaving the UK.

It could well be that the people of Scotland have had enough of being ruled by the Conservatives. Guess what? So have I. The answer is to get them out, not to stick our heads in the sand and wish them away through the mirage of independence. So I say to the people of Scotland: it may not feel at the moment like a partnership, a brotherhood and sisterhood, a commonwealth—it certainly does not from where I am standing, seeing the destruction that the Tories are wreaking—but England needs Scotland too. Scotland will be weaker out of the UK, and the UK will be weaker without Scotland.

I reckon that a chunk of the SNP’s support is not necessarily for independence, but is an anti-Tory vote—and who can blame people for that? Now, with the outstanding Anas Sarwar leading Scottish Labour, I predict that much of that chunk of support will start to come back to Labour, because now, with real leadership, there will be real scrutiny in Scotland of the effects of independence and the failings of the SNP. The Tories cannot provide that and do not want to provide it; as I have said, they are now the party of petty English nationalism, and the truth is that they do not care if we lose Scotland. But I do care; I am proud to be British—and even more so because Scotland is such a big part of being British. We have a magnificent common shared history. Get the Tories out, ditch this impossible, divisive, corrosive obsession with nationalism, and our shared common future will be brighter.

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[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I am not a mongrel. I am one of the few people speaking in the debate who does not have any Scottish blood, but I very much enjoyed the time that I spent campaigning in Scotland during the independence referendum in 2014. I went up to Scotland at a time when there were other elections in the UK because it was crucial for me to say to people that we in England desperately want Scotland to stay with the United Kingdom and be a part of our Union. While we made the argument that we thought it was in Scotland’s best interests to stay a part of that Union, we also felt passionately that the UK would be much weaker without Scotland. It would be heartbreaking if Scotland were to leave, but I accept that it is a choice for the Scottish people.

What is really important is the question of when that referendum should happen. We had the debate in 2014. The hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) said that we could have one every seven years or so, but it is clear that she wants to keep having the debate time and again in the hope that one time, on one day, they might just get over the line by 0.1%, and then there are no more referendums—then it will be over and the decision has been made.

The referendum in 2014 was pretty decisive, with 55% to 45% in favour of remaining in the Union. We should remember that more people in Scotland voted to stay in the United Kingdom than voted to stay a part of the European Union. We keep hearing from the SNP that Scotland is being dragged out of the European Union against its will, but more Scottish people voted to remain a part of the UK than voted to remain a part of the European Union. Opinion polls go up and down—we all know that in all walks of life—but one thing has been consistent: even people who want independence for Scotland do not think now is the time for it to happen. Those polls are really consistent.

[Alan Brown]

If the hon. Member properly analyses the polls, he will see that they show that the majority of people do want a referendum in the next few years, so that is wrong. He rightly acknowledged that it is for the Scottish people to decide, so when does he think the Scottish people should be allowed to make that decision, as it were?

[Mr Perkins]

It is a matter for the UK Government. It would be one thing for the SNP to go into a general election campaign saying, “A vote for us is about independence,” but it is not the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament, so it is very odd for the SNP to ask people to re-elect it on that basis.

The question I ask SNP Members is, how should someone vote this May if they want independence but think we should have a referendum in a few years’ time, rather than now? Should they vote for the SNP, knowing that the SNP will claim that that is a vote in favour of a referendum? We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) about many of the failings of the SNP Administration in Edinburgh. What about someone who thinks that the SNP is doing a good job and wants to carry on electing an SNP Government to run the Scottish Parliament but does not want independence? How should they vote, given that they know that, if they vote for the SNP because they want Nicola Sturgeon to continue being First Minister, that will be taken as a vote for independence? I am not getting any interventions on this. I am asking: how should these people vote?

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[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Last time I checked, Labour does not have a First Minister in Scotland; I think he must have meant Wales. That is an easy mistake for him to make, I am sure, but I would urge him to be a little more careful next time. The Welsh Government’s position is absolutely clear. We are the party of devolution. We delivered devolution. It is working for the Welsh people, just as it should be working for the Scottish people. We are utterly opposed to independence in Scotland and in Wales.

Britain is still a significant economy and a world power, despite the UK Conservative Government’s botching of the EU trade deal and the weakening of the international relationships that we should be building rather than destroying. The simple truth is that our economic clout and our national security are founded on our unity as a United Kingdom. We are entering an era of great power competition, with threats increasing. The SNP, were it to secure independence, intends to ditch our nuclear defence capability, which would thus undermine the security of the very nation it wishes to lead. Betting the house on rejoining the EU would also be profoundly unwise, given that 60% of Scotland’s export trade is with the rest of the UK, compared with only 19% with the EU.

The reality is that the greatest source of pride and prosperity for the Scottish people will come from rebuilding the economy post coronavirus, delivering jobs, and securing an economy resilient against future shocks.

[Alan Brown]

On nuclear weapons, allegedly Scottish Labour’s position is that it is against Trident and wants nuclear weapons removed from Scotland, so is Scottish Labour’s position untenable?

[Stephen Kinnock]

The position of the Labour party is that our commitment to our nuclear deterrent is indivisible and not up for negotiation. What is extraordinary is the position taken by this Conservative Government’s integrated review, which is to increase our nuclear capability by 40% while cutting our armed forces. That has to be the most counterproductive defence strategy that we have seen in recent times, but I digress.

The position of the Scottish National party Government is not what patriotism looks like. After the suffering of the past 12 months, compounded by a decade of Tory incompetence at UK level, now is not the time to roll the dice on a divisive referendum that would be profoundly detrimental to the interests of the people of Scotland and to the post-pandemic recovery. That is what isolationist nationalism would look like.

The Scottish Government are presiding over an education system in crisis, a health service lacking doctors and nurses, and an economy in which 230,000 Scottish children are living in poverty. The SNP’s sole focus should be on improving the lives of the Scottish people. Arguments about a referendum will not get a single Scot back into work, lift a single Scottish family out of poverty or rebuild the Scottish NHS. Scotland deserves better. Scotland deserves a Labour politics whereby our national pride is founded on our shared prosperity and our common purpose. Under the leadership of the inspirational Anas Sarwar, Scottish Labour can build that Scotland of the future.

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[Iain Stewart]

I am happy to tell the hon. Gentleman that I shall come on to that very subject. However, I am putting into context the question of why the SNP has chosen this debate, and why it has failed the people of Scotland by not concentrating on the many, many issues that are of primary concern to people in Scotland.

SNP Members do not want to talk about the vaccination programme and covid measures because that would show the effective partnership between the UK Government and the Scottish Government—something that undermines their perpetual grievance narrative. They could have used this debate to make their points about the security and international challenges that we all face, but that would mean conceding that together the UK is much stronger than the sum of its parts. They could have used this time to consider the economic challenges and opportunities that we all face post covid, but that would mean admitting that there is a need for all Governments in Scotland—local, Scottish and UK—to work together to face those economic challenges. That includes the work that we are doing on the city deal programme, the new trade deals that we are signing, the new export support that we are putting into Scotland, the removal of whisky tariffs that were damaging to Scottish jobs, and the connectivity review to make sure that all parts of our country are properly connected. But no, SNP Members chose to use the time to rehearse the same tired old arguments.

I am sure it will be of great comfort to people worrying about what education their child has missed during the pandemic or the security of their job that the separatists are looking for ever fresher opportunities to pit family against family and community against community in yet another divisive referendum. Glasgow will be hosting COP26 later this year, and the eyes of the world will be on us. We will be showing our global leadership on climate change. What message would it send to the world if Scotland were looking inward and debating constitutional matters that have been settled many years ago?

[Alan Brown]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Iain Stewart]

No, I have already given way once, and I want to respond to some of the points that Members have made.

SNP Members have the wrong priorities, and I can only imagine that they chose this debate today to shore up their core support and distract attention away from their domestic troubles and their failures in government.

Let me turn to some of the points that Members have made in the debate. I apologise if I am unable to get through all 30-plus contributions in the next three or four minutes. The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard) made some very telling comments in his contribution. First, he made a vain attempt to wriggle out of being called a separatist, but that is the SNP’s mission. It is to smash apart one country, our country, even though so many Members on both sides of the House today have demonstrated the importance of family, business, cultural and other societal connections. It would rip apart our country. As my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Jerome Mayhew) said, we are not just a family of nations; we are a nation of families. As my hon. Friends the Members for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie), for Meriden (Saqib Bhatti), for Heywood and Middleton (Chris Clarkson), for Guildford (Angela Richardson) and many others have said, it would be a disaster to rip apart one of the most successful partnerships the world has ever seen.

The hon. Member for Edinburgh East also let the cat out of the bag when he said that the referendum might not be this year and that it might be very early next year. As my hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) said, the challenges from the covid pandemic will not end with the flick of a light switch. The challenges that we will have to rebuild our economy, our society, our children’s education and the mental health of the nation will run on for many years. People in Scotland want their Government to focus on that, and I think they will take very badly this obsession with having a referendum within the next 12 months.

The hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) made the telling point that when people cast their vote, they do not cast it on just one issue. The issues that drive people’s votes will be manifold. A poll out today, I believe, shows that only 8% of people regard the constitution as a driver of their vote, and I believe the hon. Gentleman referenced Professor John Curtice in making that point. It is therefore arrogant for SNP Members to assume that every vote cast for them is a vote for another divisive referendum. I do not think people want to see that take place.

The hon. Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd) mentioned the importance of connectivity across the United Kingdom, and I am delighted that we are addressing that through the Union connectivity review. The SNP refuses to take part in the review, because it dares to have the word “Union” in it. That, to me, is a mark of a very childish and single issue-focused party.

Unfortunately, time prevents me from referring to all the points I would like to refer to in this debate. I will conclude with this: Scotland voted decisively in 2014 to stay part of the UK and we are respecting that democratic decision. Now is the time to be focusing on getting livelihoods and the economy back after the covid pandemic.

Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question.

The House proceeded to a Division.