Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000: External Communications

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Tuesday 30th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strasburger]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what guidelines Secretaries of State adopt in deciding whether electronic communications sent from the United Kingdom to a United Kingdom addressee but routed outside the United Kingdom fall within the definition of “external communications” in Section 20 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, I am sure that your Lordships’ House will understand why I cannot go into detail on operational matters. The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 sets out that authorisations for all interceptions of communications, internal or external, must consider necessity and proportionality. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has stated that privacy is at the forefront of the minds of Secretaries of State. Great care is taken to balance individual privacy with duty to the UK’s national security. The Interception of Communications Commissioner provides thorough and independent oversight of all of these considerations.

[Lord Strasburger]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for her reply. We now know that GCHQ is routinely hoovering up and storing prodigious quantities of the internet communications of millions of innocent people, turning us all from citizens into suspects. As far as I am aware, Parliament has not sanctioned this industrial-scale seizure of our private data by the state. Can the Minister please tell the House whether this blanket snooping on all of us is authorised by a Minister, and if so, which Minister sanctioned it, and under which section of which Act of Parliament?

[Baroness Warsi]

I do not accept the noble Lord’s question, or indeed the points he made in it. I can assure the House that we take the interception of communications incredibly seriously. For these actions to go ahead we need a warrant from one of the most senior members of the Government as well as detailed legal advice to support it. That decision will be reviewed by independent commissioners and implemented by agencies, which are bound by legal and ethical frameworks, alongside parliamentary scrutiny through the Intelligence and Security Committee. This provides one of the strongest systems of checks and balances and democratic accountability for secret intelligence agencies and their work anywhere in the world.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords, I think the House recognises that electronic communications have grown exponentially and are now global and transnational, not merely international. In order to have some perspective and context to this Question, can the Minister give us a rough indication of how many terrorist plots have been foiled and how many British lives have been saved through the legal supervision of those electronic communications?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord makes an important point which is, of course, based on his many years of experience in dealing with this very real threat. I cannot give precise numbers here at the Dispatch Box. However, I can say that secret intelligence work is vital to our country. It detects threats that our country is facing, ranging from nuclear proliferation to cyberattacks, it prevents serious and organised crime, it prevents and disrupts complex terrorist plots and it supports the work of our Armed Forces. These are all things that protect our country and its citizens.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, perhaps I may raise the more basic point of nuisance calls. In the past, I have asked why we cannot prevent them here and I have been told that if they are international calls we can do nothing to control them. It is only the calls started locally that can be controlled. Is it still the situation that all the phone calls we get advising us to do a million things cannot be dealt with because we have no control at all?

[Baroness Warsi]

I am not sure that I can answer my noble friend’s question. I do not have details of that in the brief. However, I can confirm that it is a question that my mother asks regularly so I probably should get the answer to it.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, does not the use of the terms “blanket” and “hoovering up” by the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger, indicate a complete absence of knowledge about what GCHQ is actually doing?

[Baroness Warsi]

I am not sure that I would go that far, but of course I take the noble Lord’s point that the function of GCHQ is an incredibly important and vital aspect of our national security.

[Lord Pannick]

The Joint Committee on the draft Communications Bill made a number of recommendations for improving and updating the law in this area. Do the Government have any intention of implementing those proposals?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord will be aware that the matter has now passed through two parliamentary committees and it is the Government’s intention to bring the matter back to Parliament. However, at this stage, final proposals have not been drawn up.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

The Minister mentioned that ministerial licences had been specifically granted for such interceptions. Can she kindly tell the House roughly how many licences have been issued over a convenient period—whether it be the past 12 months or the past 24 months?

[Baroness Warsi]

I believe that that would be an operational matter. I think that noble Lords would agree that I take my responsibilities to this House incredibly seriously and that I am usually incredibly frank and detailed in my answers. However, I hope that noble Lords will bear with me when I say that that is an operational matter and that I can comment only so far on these matters.

Referendum: European Union

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Monday 29th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Barnett]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions the Prime Minister has had with fellow European Union leaders about treaty changes that could be made before the proposed United Kingdom referendum on the European Union in 2017.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister regularly discusses a range of EU issues with his counterparts, including changes needed to make the EU more competitive, flexible and democratically accountable. These discussions include the substance of reforms and the means to achieve them, which range from legislation to treaty changes. Most recently, the Prime Minister held discussions in the margins of the June European Council and the Lough Erne summit, bilaterally with counterparts from Italy, Germany, Spain and France, and with the Commission President.

[Lord Barnett]

Has the noble Baroness seen a recent article in the Times which said, “A senior government figure”—the Times did not name him or her—

“said that other European leaders were privately offering concessions to Mr Cameron so long as reforms were agreed on an EU-wide basis”.

Is it not clear that if that were to happen it would require all the other 27 countries to sign and that that is extremely unlikely, to put it mildly, before 2017? Has it not always been clear that offering a referendum on the condition of various things happening is likely to create great difficulties, especially when the referendum is on a major constitutional issue? Can the Minister assure us that when the Prime Minister has an agreement, whether it is agreed Europe-wide or not, he will say to the community here that in a referendum they should say yes to staying in the eurozone?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord raises a number of issues. First, I can assure him that the process of reform is ongoing. This Government have been able to negotiate a number of issues in favour of the United Kingdom’s position. On the position in Europe about whether there will be a treaty change in due course, views differ. The Italian Prime Minister, Mr Enrico Letta, said recently that we need a more flexible Europe, that the role Britain plays in the European Union is a positive one, and that he thinks that treaty change can be achieved in the near future. The noble Lord will also be familiar with the statements from President Barroso and the plan published by the four Presidents in December last year, which again clearly show that the possibility of a treaty is definitely there.

[Lord Clarke of Hampstead]

My Lords, did the discussions the Prime Minister had with his European colleagues include the matter of the European directives on procurement policy? I am sure the Minister will know that a trusted and loyal servant of this House will lose her employment because of the European directive, which seems to work against small businesses. Does this matter concern the Government? The lady in question supplies a floristry service to this House and is going to be without an income and a job because of a directive. I hope that the Minister and the Government will join me in congratulating the Lord Speaker on initiating a collection to help ameliorate the hardship that the loss of her job will cause.

[Baroness Warsi]

Of course, this Government are committed to cutting the costs of European regulation and I am sure that the noble Lord will be aware of what progress has already been made in terms of cutting bureaucracy for the smallest businesses in Europe. On the very specific question he has raised, I am not familiar with the case, so I would be grateful if the noble Lord could write to me. I will write to him fully in return.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the alternative proposals of the German finance Minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, for a two-step process towards a banking union have been floated precisely in order to avoid treaty change? The Germans have now come to the view that treaty change would be very difficult to achieve in light of the credibility of the eurozone at the moment.

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend is aware that the German finance Minister claimed that banking union could not be completed without a change to the treaties and therefore he has proceeded in the way he has. I go back to the general question on this matter, which is that reforms—including in relation to a banking union—can start to happen right now. It is right that we should continue to negotiate a better position for the United Kingdom, always keeping in mind the longer-term view of what more we can negotiate for a position that is better for us within the European Union.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, is there any truth in the rumour that Mrs Merkel has agreed to go along with minimal cosmetic treaty changes in the hope that the British people can be deceived into voting for what will still be a fundamentally unreformed European Union?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I am not in the habit of commenting on rumour. What I can say is that I am aware that Mrs Merkel is committed to a more competitive and flexible Europe and that in a number of areas we do, in fact, agree.

[Lord Tugendhat]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that there is too much pessimism around these questions? Not only have there been encouraging responses from the German Government, the Dutch Government and the Italian Government, it is quite clear that in the coming two or three years either the eurozone will come closer together, in which case there will have to be a general negotiation with the non-eurozone countries, including ourselves, or the eurozone will split apart, in which case again there will have to be a general recasting of relationships. Within that context, the Prime Minister’s ambitions seem perfectly reasonable. Does she not agree?

[Baroness Warsi]

I agree completely with my noble friend.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, last week the Government faced deserved criticism and indeed derision on the farce of opting out of the justice and home affairs measures and then opting back in. Is it not equally absurd to decide now on a referendum in 2017 or on any other fixed date years ahead? An awful lot can happen between now and then. There might even be a new treaty—the Germans are already talking along those lines—that might be under negotiation in 2017, so we would not know what we were voting on. Is it not time for the Government to stop taking decisions on European policy that are illogical and do not make the slightest practical sense, but are simply based on attempts to pander to the eurosceptics in the Tory party and desperate attempts to try to retrieve the UKIP vote?

[Baroness Warsi]

I am glad the noble Lord has got that off his chest. He will recollect that the amount of support the Government had in relation to that particular opt-out was clear in relation to the majorities in both Houses.

[Lord Grocott]

Am I right in my understanding of the Prime Minister’s position on the European referendum? In the event of there being a Conservative victory at the next election, he will hold a referendum that will be based on negotiations which he will have conducted and, when he has completed those negotiations, he will recommend a yes vote. If I am wrong in that assumption, can the Minister explain the basis on which the Prime Minister would recommend a no vote?

[Baroness Warsi]

The Government’s position is very clear: there will not be a referendum before the next election. The Conservative Party has made its position entirely clear. The noble Lord understands that there will be a period of negotiation and then we will go to the country and ask people to vote. What would be interesting for these Benches and the country to hear is what the Labour Party’s position is. We believe that the country should be allowed a vote and a decision. I would like to hear what the Labour Party thinks.

West Papua

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Wednesday 24th July 2013 Grand Committee

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, I thank the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, for proposing this debate on the human rights situation in the Indonesian provinces of Papua and West Papua.

Last year was momentous for relations between Indonesia and the UK. Following the Prime Minister’s visit in April 2012, I travelled to Indonesia in late May and saw for myself the huge progress this multiethnic state has made since its transition from autocracy to democracy. I visited Aceh, now recovering from the twin blows of a long-running conflict and the devastating tsunami. I met students and parliamentarians and we had discussions about extremism and human rights, as well as other issues.

Last year culminated in the state visit to the UK of the Indonesian President, which has set the bilateral relationship on a new footing. Indonesia is a G20 partner and regional powerhouse. It is playing a positive role in regional security dynamics, and the Indonesian President is showing global leadership through efforts including co-chairing the High-Level Panel on the Post-2015 Development Agenda with the Prime Minister.

Today our reinvigorated relationship is grounded in strong political, security and prosperity interests. But as Her Majesty the Queen said at the state banquet during the President’s visit,

“the partnership between Britain and Indonesia is also shaped by common values”.

It is a relationship that should be—and, indeed, is—viewed as a partnership through which we can each assume the role of a critical friend. It is in this spirit that we discuss issues of concern, including human rights in Papua.

As noble Lords are aware, the political situation in Papua is hugely complex. While it is portrayed by some as a clear-cut issue, this is simply not the case. Over the past decade or so, the human rights environment in Indonesia has been transformed. It now has a press and civil society that are free and vibrant, and has been on a positive journey in the region, especially on the issue of human rights. However, as the Indonesian Government themselves acknowledge, challenges remain in certain areas, including Papua.

President Yudhoyono has stated on a number of occasions that he supports a welfare rather than security approach to Papua, and we have seen members of the security forces who commit abuses being held to account. This is progress. Political rights are regularly exercised in local and national electoral processes, but we accept that challenges remain. Notwithstanding the significant funds that have been pumped into the region, access to education and healthcare is often poor, particularly for women and girls. Domestic violence rates are disturbingly high and freedom of expression is all too often stifled, as has been mentioned many times today.

As noble Lords have done today, the Government condemn all violations of human rights, no matter who the victim. Violations in Papua have been committed by the security forces as well as by those who claim to be striving for the rights of Papuan people. Verifying the details is often difficult given the remoteness of the region. We have heard from the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, about Papuans who have tragically paid with their lives. We also saw the appalling murder of eight Indonesian military personnel in February this year. Non-ethnic Papuans based in the highlands have been attacked and killed, and a German tourist was shot in May 2012.

The restrictions placed upon those voicing their political opinion are also cause for concern. Lengthy jail terms have been handed down for holding peaceful protests, and I pay tribute to the NGOs and their staff who work tirelessly to support these prisoners. Freedom of religion and belief and freedom of expression were raised at the universal periodic review. The invitation to the UN special rapporteur on freedom of expression to visit Indonesia is a positive step, and we firmly hope that this visit takes place soon.

I echo the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, about journalists, NGOs and international organisations—including the International Red Cross, which has extremely limited access to Papua —and we have raised these with the Government of Indonesia at all levels. As the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, reminded us, without opening Papua up, there is a risk of misreporting or incidents being misrepresented. Incidents will remain hard to verify as long as Papua remains closed.

The Government are resolute in demanding that human rights be respected by all in Papua. We make this absolutely clear to the Indonesian Government at the highest levels. In the past 12 months alone, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and President Yudhoyono discussed Papua when they met in November during the state visit—I can confirm that on the record. The human rights situation in Papua also features regularly in our discussions with the Indonesian Foreign Minister and the governor of Papua. British embassy staff visit the region regularly. As my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford informed the House last year, in May 2012, as part of the universal periodic review, we, along with other UN members had an opportunity to comment on human rights progress in Indonesia.

On the human rights report, my noble friend Lord Avebury asked why it was not a country of concern. It was in fact covered under the heading of “Freedom of religion or belief” as one of the areas of concern we had about Indonesia. The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, raised the issue of human rights violations generally, and how far these concerns had been raised. I have already explained how these issues have been raised at the presidential level. I can, however, tell him that last September the ambassador visited Papua and met senior military and police officials, emphasising the need to respect human rights and ensure full and transparent investigations into any violent incidents, and only in April of this year, the British ambassador discussed the situation in Papua with the new governor of the province.

Human rights are fundamental and based on universal values. They are not there to be invoked only when economic conditions allow. Even so, a myriad of social, political and economic influences often lie behind human rights abuses, and these must also be addressed. The UK will therefore continue to encourage meaningful progress on governance issues, including the full implementation of the special autonomy law for the provinces of Papua and West Papua. We also support the increased focus on economic and social development to which the Government have committed themselves in order to address the widespread poverty in the region, especially among ethnic Papuans.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, referred to the position of previous Governments on the political status of Papua. Of course, ours remains the same: the UK supports the territorial integrity of the Republic of Indonesia and does not support calls for the independence of Papua. Like the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, I recognise that the events surrounding the 1969 Act of Free Choice continue to be a focus of controversy for many with an interest in Papua and West Papua. The UK was not party to the process and we have no plans to support a review of the Act. All relevant UK documents relating to this period are now a matter of national record.

The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and other noble Lords spoke about Special Detachment 88. Our training and engagement with the Jakarta Centre for Law Enforcement Co-operation, which includes officers from Densus 88, takes place within a framework of respect for the rule of law and a commitment to upholding human rights obligations in compliance with UK and international standards. All of the training delivered by the UK is rooted firmly in the importance of upholding human rights in counterterrorism investigations. Each training course contains a specific module on these obligations. There have been impact assessments; I think that there was one in 2011. However, for operational reasons we would not release an impact assessment on CT operations overseas.

Specific questions were asked about funding. I confirm that in the financial year 2011-12, the UK’s counterterrorism programme provided in the region of £400,000 of support to the Jakarta Centre for Law Enforcement Co-operation to deliver a package of six different classroom-based training programmes. We also deliver a regional course that brings together senior law enforcement officers from around south-east Asia to focus on the co-ordination and management of multi-jurisdictional investigations aimed at disrupting terrorism and transnational crime. Funding for our programme for the JCLEC has been agreed for the year 2013-14, and we will be providing £319,000. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, spoke about revenue flows because of the special autonomy status. Our understanding is that revenue flows have indeed been going to the local elected authorities in Papua.

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, asked about military accountability. We have seen steps towards greater accountability in cases of military abuse, but there is still a long way to go. Convictions for those involved in the appalling abuses, some of which then appeared on YouTube, were a step forward. The noble Lord also asked what practical things the UK was involved in. DfID is providing £10 million of funding from 2013 to 2015 which is focused on programmes in Papua. We are also working to deliver sustainable development and we will fund a number of NGOs and civil society groups to develop capacity in the civil society sector.

The United Kingdom has an important and wide-ranging relationship with Indonesia, aspects of which I have outlined this evening. It is a relationship that allows us to raise areas of concern in a constructive, frank and open manner, including human rights violations. However, we do so in a balanced manner, regardless of who is the perpetrator or the victim.

We all agree that the situation in Papua is of concern and that we should continue to speak out against violations, whoever commits them, which contravene human rights and international law. Greater accountability and transparency are needed regarding abuses committed both by the Indonesian security forces and by Papuan armed groups. All those with a stake in Papua’s future need constructively to engage in peaceful dialogue as a way to resolve their grievances. I firmly believe that it is possible for Papua to enjoy the same level of peace, stability and prosperity that is seen elsewhere in Indonesia. That is, after all, in the interests of all Papuan people. However, it will take commitment from all sides. We believe that the Indonesian Government are genuinely committed to addressing these challenges and we hope that others will join us in supporting their efforts.

Committee adjourned at 7.45 pm.

Lebanon

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Risby]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the current social and economic situation in Lebanon.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, the Syria crisis and, in particular, the influx of more than 600,000 refugees has had a serious impact on Lebanon’s social and economic situation. As part of the UK’s strong support for Lebanon’s stability, the International Development Secretary announced during her visit to Lebanon on 9 July that we are contributing a further £50 million to help Syrian refugees and Lebanese host communities. This brings our total support for Lebanon’s humanitarian response to £69 million, in addition to our contribution through the EU and international organisations.

[Lord Risby]

Does my noble friend agree that fate has been very cruel to Lebanon, which in living memory has suffered a terrible civil war, occupation by Syria which became destructive, an invasion, all the tensions now arising from the activities of Hezbollah across the border in Syria and, as my noble friend mentioned, the huge and tragic influx of Syrian refugees to the country? Given all this, can my noble friend give some detail about the broad spectrum of support being given to Lebanon at this extremely difficult time in its history?

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend makes an important point. The country has 7,000 years of history as a hinge between various continents and civilisations. Sadly and tragically, since its independence it has also suffered ongoing political challenges. I assure my noble friend, and indeed the House, that the UK stands firm in its support for the Lebanese state. We have a strong relationship and I can refer to a number of recent visits and support. For example, we strongly supported the UN Security Council statement on 10 July reaffirming international support for Lebanon. The Chief of the Defence Staff visited Lebanon earlier this month and discussed our plans to increase our assistance to the Lebanese armed forces. We have since announced an additional £10 million to bolster the armed forces’ ability to protect and manage the border. We also support trade and investment. UK-Lebanon exports are up 31% on last year’s figures.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the European Union has just decided to designate the military wing of Hezbollah a terrorist organisation. Will the Minister say how meaningful the distinction is between the military wing and the political wing of Hezbollah? What effect will it have on any representations we would wish to make to Hezbollah?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, we do not see why the EU designation should impact on Lebanese political stability or on EU relationships with the Lebanese Government. We do not think that it will affect the EU and the UK relationship, but we feel that it sends out a clear message that the EU is united against terrorism and that there are consequences for terrorist attacks carried out on European soil. It is important, as I am sure noble Lords are aware, that the designation is of the military wing of Hezbollah. We recognise that Hezbollah’s political representatives will remain a legitimate part of Lebanon’s political scene.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, would my noble friend tell the House what discussions Her Majesty’s Government have had with the political wing of Hezbollah regarding its participation in the Syrian civil war?

[Baroness Warsi]

Discussions with all Lebanese political parties, including Hezbollah—it is a large part of politics in Lebanon—are ongoing. We have raised our concerns because there was an indication that Lebanon was to remain neutral in this particular conflict. Clearly, from Hezbollah’s own admission that has not been the case. We are deeply concerned and have raised our concerns with Hezbollah.

[Baroness Uddin]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of some of the allegations of violence against women, perhaps even of rape? If so, could she tell the House what work is being done to support women and families in vulnerable situations in those refugee camps?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Baroness may be aware of the Foreign Secretary’s specific initiative on preventing sexual violence in conflict. Part of that is to have experts advising at an early stage, when we look at how refugee camps are set up. For example, specific work is being done on where the toilets and wash facilities are for women—and to ensure that they are done in a way that means women are protected—and on where the food facilities are. That is part of the thinking going into the development of these refugee camps.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, the EU move to blacklist the military wing of Hezbollah is the right one, although it is a very sensitive area and EU interventions in the Middle East jigsaw have not always been a dazzling success. The Minister’s remarks about continuing and strengthening our own bilateral links with Lebanon are very welcome, but will she add to that our support for the development of its very considerable offshore oil and gas resources? If developed, they could bring prosperity to the whole region and maybe contribute to peace.

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend always understands issues in much more detail than I ever could. I am not familiar with the particular oil and gas reserves to which my noble friend refers, but I of course support his comments. We have put huge efforts into making sure that we strengthen the trade relationship between our two countries.

[The Lord Bishop of Birmingham]

My Lords, Lebanese communities have shown incredible generosity in coping with refugees but the flow is reaching breaking point. Will the Minister accept that, in addition to providing support for refugees, more work should be done to alleviate tension between communities and to strengthen the resilience of host families?

[Baroness Warsi]

I completely agree with the right reverend Prelate that there has been a huge show of generosity and a real welcome from the Lebanese people. Noble Lords may be aware that the population of Lebanon is about 4 million. The number of registered refugees is 600,000 but it is estimated that the real number could be a lot higher—somewhere around 1 million. That is the equivalent of the whole of the Romanian population arriving on British shores over a very short period. A huge amount of pressure has been put on local resources, which has of course caused tensions. It is for that reason that we are supporting not just the refugee communities but the host communities as well.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, the noble Baroness may be aware that at the recent G8 women’s conference, considerable anxiety was expressed about the economic and social impact of disruption across the region on women. Can the noble Baroness say what specific help is given at the moment to Lebanese women in that respect?

[Baroness Warsi]

Unfortunately I cannot, but I will write to the noble Baroness in detail on that issue.

European Court of Human Rights: Khodorkovsky Case

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Trimble for calling this important debate on the Khodorkovsky case, and I am grateful once again for the quality of this debate and the expertise of noble Lords.

I start by assuring noble Lords that we have raised our concerns about the serious shortcomings in the Russian judicial process and the wider human rights situation with Russia on many occasions. We will continue to encourage them to address these issues as a matter of urgency. Many noble Lords have spoken in detail of the case of Mikhail Khodorkovsky and his business partner Platon Lebedev. We have heard that, as his wealth grew, Khodorkovsky became increasingly politically minded, that he was cautiously critical of the Russian system of managed democracy, and that his relations with the Russian leadership took a downward turn.

The case has highlighted serious flaws in the Russian judicial process. These were compounded after new charges of theft and embezzlement were brought against him, which, critically, ensured that Khodorkovsky would not be released prior to the presidential elections in 2012. Khodorkovsky and Lebedev are set to be released in 2014. I stand with those in this House and in the international community who call on the Russian Government to honour those release dates. It would send exactly the wrong message about the state of the Russian judiciary and the rule of law in Russia if their sentences were extended further.

The European Court of Human Rights ruling recognised many of the serious human rights violations suffered by Mr Khodorkovsky: degrading prison conditions; inhuman and degrading conditions in the courtroom, unjustified detention and unfair hearings. While it ruled that there was no direct proof that the prosecution was politically motivated, the court recognised that the weight of evidence presented by Mr Khodorkovsky’s lawyers would be sufficient to satisfy even the most assiduous of domestic European courts, and that they would refuse extradition, deny legal assistance and issue injunctions against the Russian Government on this evidence. As the Government have intimated on numerous occasions, we, like this House, continue to have serious concerns about the application of the law in Russia.

It is also important to put this discussion in context by setting out the current state of the rule of law in Russia, where recent cases and developments fuel concerns about the politicisation of judgments and the lack of judicial independence. Three years after Sergei Magnitsky’s death in pre-trial detention, there has been no meaningful progress towards securing justice. The investigation into his death has been dropped. The fact that Mr Magnitsky was posthumously convicted of tax evasion earlier this month, by definition without the opportunity to defend himself, simply adds to the already negative perceptions of the judicial process in Russia. We continue to call for a full and transparent investigation into his tragic death, as my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary did when he met Foreign Minister Lavrov earlier this year.

Just last week my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary again highlighted concerns about the selective application of law in Russia, this time in relation to the case of Alexei Navalny, which was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Wood. An outspoken anti-corruption advocate, Navalny has become the face of the Russian opposition movement. But, in an increasingly familiar story, he has been charged with embezzlement. During his recent trial, his legal team were prevented from calling any defence witnesses to give evidence. On Thursday he was sentenced to five years in prison. Huge protests broke out in Moscow and on Friday he was unexpectedly released on bail, pending his appeal. In 30 days we will know the outcome of his appeal. For the moment, he will continue his campaign for the Moscow mayoral election.

One cannot ignore the common threads between these cases—the selective justice and the violations of due process—which lead to a lack of domestic and international faith in the integrity of the Russian legal system. The fact that there are scant signs of improvement is worrying.

In parallel, President Putin’s third term has been characterised by a clampdown on civil society; the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Wood, referred to some examples of this. A string of new pieces of legislation has led to a narrowing of civil liberties, with serious curbs on freedom of expression and the right to peaceful assembly and protest. Russian people now face a fine greater than the average annual salary for violating the “public order”.

NGOs now face the threat of raids by various bodies since a new law requires any non-governmental organisation that conducts “political activity” and accepts foreign funding to bear the label of “foreign agent”. Critically, the definition of what is and what is not political is unclear. In addition, lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender members of Russian society have been directly targeted. In June, a law was passed which bans the promotion of “non-traditional sexual relations”. This effectively makes all LGBT rallies and sharing information on LGBT issues illegal and subject to heavy fines.

In short, it would be no exaggeration to say that what little progress there has been in Russia on human rights has now stalled. So now, more than ever, we must work to kick-start change. We must work to retain and build on the channels of influence we have available to us from all levels of our network. This must be our focus, and it is one from which we have not shied away.

I remind the House that the United Kingdom is unique among all EU member states in holding annual bilateral meetings to allow formal discussions about human rights. This gives us the opportunity to hold Russia to account on the human rights obligations into which it has entered through its participation in various United Nations conventions and the European Convention on Human Rights.

At the 2013 UK-Russia human rights dialogue, senior officials reiterated the very plain concerns articulated by my right honourable friends the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Minister for Europe, and made it clear to the Russian authorities that we hoped to see both Khodorkovsky and Lebedev released according to schedule in the second half of 2014. This dialogue is a forum in which we can confront the Russians’ shortcomings and try to call them to account.

However, this is about more than just setting out our concerns. It is also about offering support to both the Russian authorities and civil society in their efforts to try to strengthen the rule of law in Russia. On a Government-to-Government level, we signed a UK-Russia memorandum of understanding on justice co-operation in 2010. In this, we undertook to exchange information and expertise through contact between legal professionals, officials and NGOs.

There has also been high-level contact between our respective Ministries of Justice. My noble friend Lord McNally attended the St Petersburg International Legal Forum in May this year, which allowed the opportunity for us to offer support and advice on the value of a strong and independent judiciary. Russian uptake of our offers in this area has sometimes been slow since we signed the MoU, but we have a long-term commitment to delivering in this area.

We have also offered practical support and shared UK best practice through a series of projects, including working with the Supreme Commercial Court of the Russian Federation and the Russian probation service. It is true that these projects sometimes take place in a difficult environment but we believe that they have had a direct impact on the rule of law environment in Russia, and in a small way have empowered those elements, described by my noble friend Lord Alderdice, in the Russian system committed to making real progress.

The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, asked specifically about compensation to Khodorkovsky. We understand that the Russian Federation has paid him €10,000, as instructed by the European Court of Human Rights, but the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, may well have more information through his involvement.

Indeed the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, asked about our view of the European court’s delay in dealing with these cases. We recognise the importance of the European Court of Human Rights for the protection of human rights across Europe, but we recognise that it needs to be more efficient and to focus on cases where it really is needed. These were the two priorities that we felt were needed for reform of the court. The Brighton declaration agreed last April has gone some way towards achieving these, and we will continue to push for further meaningful reform when negotiations start later in the year.

The noble Lord asked a broader question about the UK’s approach towards human rights and the European Court of Human Rights. I can assure him that the Government’s commitment to human rights is strong and clear. Human rights contain many of the basic rights and freedoms that have been fundamental to British law for centuries, such as the right to a fair trial, freedom from torture and freedom of speech. These rights are vital in Britain today, as they were in earlier years and as they are throughout the world. The Government agreed in the coalition agreement that their obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights will continue to be enshrined in British law.

My noble friend Lord Alderdice spoke about the case of Pussy Riot. I can assure him that the Prime Minister raised this case specifically with President Putin. My noble friend Lord Trimble spoke about the Litvinenko case. The Government remain committed to seeking justice in this case. We want to see a trial in the United Kingdom of the suspects named by the Crown Prosecution Service. The Russian Government are in no doubt about the strength of our feeling on this case. We believe that the coroner’s inquest can continue to investigate effectively the circumstances of Mr Litvinenko’s death, and we will continue to co-operate fully with it.

My noble friend Lady Williams spoke about asylum cases from Russia. She is of course aware that asylum cases are not determined by foreign policy considerations, and that all decisions around asylum claims are taken according to the relevant UK and international laws, which are subject to strict and impartial judicial scrutiny.

My noble friend Lord Bates spoke about the broader UK-Russia relationship, and said that British foreign policy has struggled to understand Russia—to find a common mutual understanding. I accept that this is important, and that is why, although there are well known differences in the relationship, the Government have continued to favour high-level and frank dialogue with Russia.

In conclusion, it is right that the UK continues to call Russia to account for this situation and other cases. Khodorkovsky is due to be released on 15 October 2014. We must continue to encourage Russia to fulfil its commitments to strengthen the rule of law and promote the independence of the judiciary. President Putin has publicly said he wants Russia to move up the international “ease of doing business” tables, and make Russia a more attractive destination for foreign investment. For this to happen, his Government need demonstrably to support the development of a strong civil society and to demonstrate that the rule of law is respected in Russia. Business leaders must see evidence of the fair application of law. It is that climate that will bring foreign investment to Russia. The release of Khodorkovsky and Lebedev would be seen as a huge step internationally towards that goal.

House adjourned at 11.24 pm.

Democratic Republic of the Congo

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, for introducing this timely debate. As noble Lords who took part in this debate this evening will be well aware, the eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo has been subject to cycles of conflict for many years, and more than 5 million people have lost their lives as a result. Its people have suffered too much and for too long. Many have fled their homes, villages have been attacked, there have been summary executions, and there are high levels of sexual violence, including mass rape.

The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, and my noble friend Lady Chalker referred to the ongoing tension, but also to the recent increase in fighting. The actions of the ADF-NALU militia have driven tens of thousands of refugees into Uganda, and the ongoing fighting between the M23 and the DRC army are, of course, concerning. This is an appalling record—more concerning in recent times—and it cannot be allowed to continue. We have urged all sides to show restraint and all militia groups to lay down their arms. We have heard reports of connections with extremist Islamic groups, but at this stage those claims cannot be evidenced and substantiated.

The UK has, of course, been a long-term partner of the DRC. The Department for International Development provides much-needed funding—£790 million between 2011 and 2016—to those in greatest need. UK taxpayer-funded assistance in the DRC over this five-year period alone will include: providing almost 2 million people with clean water; protecting 13.5 million people from malaria—the leading cause of death for children under five in the country—through the simple provision of insecticide-treated bed nets; providing assistance to almost 400,000 women in childbirth; and creating nearly 45,000 new jobs. Through its contribution to the UN, the UK helps to support the work of UN peacekeepers on the front line of the conflict, trying to prevent armed groups wreaking havoc among long-suffering local populations.

In response to my noble friend Lord Chidgey, I can say that I am not aware whether the recent fighting has had any impact on DfID’s programmes, but I can ask DfID to write to him with further information.

A different approach is needed if the cycle of violence in the DRC is to be broken for good. We have now reached a critical moment when there is a window of opportunity to help bring lasting stability and prosperity to this conflict-torn region. Noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Collins, have spoken of immediate responses, but we need to focus on long-term sustainability.

Four events now give us a window of opportunity. First, the signing of the UN-brokered peace, security and co-operation framework—the PSCF—in February marked a moment where 11 regional countries, including the DRC and Rwanda, came together to sign up to commitments which, if implemented, will lead to peaceful co-operation and economic integration across the whole region. This agreement was also signed by four organisations: the UN, the African Union, the Southern African Development Community and the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region.

For the DRC the framework means commitment to deepening security sector reform, consolidating state authority, working towards decentralisation, building economic development, and further structural reform of public institutions—the long-term developments needed for stability. The DRC’s neighbours have committed to respect their neighbours’ sovereignty and territorial integrity. They have also committed to neither tolerate nor assist armed groups, to strengthen regional co-operation, and to refrain from harbouring or protecting anyone accused of war crimes or crimes against humanity. The PSCF is a great example of the region coming together, with the support of the international community, to agree to the principle of peace and a way forward to make it happen.

Secondly, there was the appointment in March of Mary Robinson as the UN special envoy to the region. The Government strongly welcome this appointment, and we have offered our support to her and her office as she implements her mandate to oversee the implementation of the PSCF, which she has referred to as “the framework of hope”. We support her approach of working with regional Governments to bring stability to the region, but also with communities to encourage peace-building at all levels. The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, referred to that as both top-down and bottom-up.

I welcome, in particular, the noble Lord’s recent visit to Burundi, where he supported Mary Robinson at a women leaders consultative meeting, which looked at the role women across the region could play in implementing the PSCF. The noble Lord also asked about contacts. Foreign Office Ministers have been in contact with Mary Robinson, both in person and by phone, and I understand that the Minister for Africa saw her in London about three weeks ago. He underlined to her the UK’s support for her role, and offered to consider any requests for practical assistance that she may need.

Thirdly, there is the new mandate for MONUSCO peacekeepers. While protection of civilians remains the core principle of the peacekeeping operation, this mandate also, for the first time in the UN’s history, includes an intervention brigade—the FIB—with a specific task of preventing the expansion of, and neutralising, armed groups in eastern DRC. We have welcomed the deployment of the FIB, which we feel will act in support of the PSCF. We hope that it will help to bring a period of stability to eastern DRC to allow reform and peace-building to take root. The mandate also allows for the use of unmanned aerial systems—another first for a UN peacekeeping mandate. Given the size of eastern DRC and its hostile terrain, we think that this will provide a useful tool to help peacekeepers monitor the situation on the ground more effectively.

Lastly, talks in Kampala between the DRC Government and M23 continue. While this process has been somewhat irregular, and the talks alone cannot achieve a sustainable peace in eastern DRC, they have a part to play in the wider peace process. The confluence of these events, with the military track in support of political and development efforts, provides an opportunity to achieve lasting stability in eastern DRC, for the cycle of violence to finally be broken, and for the terrible human rights abuses that have afflicted the people of that region to end.

Of course, we recognise that the causes and drivers of conflict in eastern DRC are many and various, and often deeply entrenched, so we do not claim that resolving conflict there will be easy or quick. It will require the sustained effort of the signatories to the PSCF, which contains some hefty commitments. It is important that all signatories fulfil these commitments—for the DRC to carry out significant reform of its security sector, for example, and for the other signatories, including Rwanda, to respect the sovereignty of their neighbours and refrain from supporting armed groups. It is equally important that all signatories work together for the potential peace dividend, for greater regional economic integration and development.

We welcome the progress that has been made so far—for example, the steps taken in DRC towards its PSCF commitments, including starting to establish a national dialogue mechanism and providing an initial plan for security sector reform. But much more remains to be done. Ensuring the success of the PSCF will also require the sustained attention and collaborative efforts of the international community.

The UK will take a joint diplomatic and development approach to supporting the framework, in support of Special Envoy Robinson as she works to encourage the full implementation of the PSCF. This means that we will use our diplomatic assets to urge signatories to meet their commitments, ensuring that the Department for International Development’s work to support conflict resolution and peace-building in the region is effective and sustainable. A number of noble Lords asked about the EU. We are already working through the UN, the EU, the African Union and other organisations, with Governments in the region and other major donors to DRC and Rwanda.

My noble friend Lord Chidgey spoke of the appalling sexual violence. He will be aware of the Preventing Sexual Violence initiative launched by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary last year. This was the focus of his visit to DRC and Rwanda in March this year. The UK now has a specialist team of experts to deploy to conflict areas to support UN and civil society efforts to help build national capacity to investigate allegations of sexual violence, helping to replace the culture of impunity with one of deterrence. In the DRC, the UK is supporting the NGO Physicians for Human Rights with the deployment of an expert in eastern DRC. The expert is working with local health, legal, and law enforcement professionals in north and south Kivu provinces to ensure they are better equipped to conduct crime scene investigations. He will assist local professionals in the documentation, collection and preservation of forensic evidence to ensure that perpetrators of sexual violence crimes are brought to justice.

The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, asked about donor co-ordination. This is something that Mary Robinson has emphasised the need for in DRC, and we strongly agree with her. We are working closely with partners in Kinshasa to ensure that we remain co-ordinated with other donors. While effective donor co-ordination remains challenging in DRC, it is improving, and we are committed to investing the time and resources to accelerate progress in the coming months.

The noble Lord spoke about the visit by the All-Party Parliamentary Group on the Great Lakes Region of Africa to eastern DRC. I pay tribute to the work of the APPG and am aware of the very successful visit that it paid to Rwanda and the DRC. The knowledge that it brings back to this and the other place helps inform much FCO thinking, as well as our officials on the ground.

We have no details on dates for the Kampala talks at this stage, but we are concerned about their irregular nature. We think that they should continue in good faith and that neither side should try to force an agreement through force of arms.

My noble friend Lady Chalker asked about the source of rebel arms and funding. Of course, I share her concerns about the source of the arms in eastern DRC, and we are working with the UN and the Government of DRC to challenge the activities of rebel groups of different allegiances, which are using conflict minerals to secure the irregular supply of arms. I absolutely agree that the one thing that the eastern DRC does not need is more weapons.

My noble friend also asked whether we have any knowledge of recruitment into M23. We are aware of reports of recruitment into M23 from Rwanda and of forced recruitment from areas that it controls. We have urged the DRC’s neighbours to ensure that such activity ceases.

In conclusion, there is no doubt that the Democratic Republic of Congo faces enormous challenges. The Government of the DRC, regional Governments and the international community must work relentlessly to respond to these challenges if we are to bring lasting stability to the region. The DRC is of course a huge country—the often-quoted comparison in terms of size is that of the whole of western Europe—and in the east there are areas of seemingly impenetrable forest with very limited roads, communications and infrastructure. We know that there are deeply entrenched problems to overcome, but the framework for peace is in place and, with the commitment of the Governments of the region and the support of the international community, real progress can be made; progress that will be felt by communities and people across the DRC, so that the many who have waited far too long for the opportunity to live their lives in peace will finally see that happen.

Syria

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wood of Anfield]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that the proposed international peace conference on the Syrian conflict takes place in the near future.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, all our efforts have focused on securing a successful outcome at the forthcoming Geneva conference. A negotiated political settlement remains the best way in which to end the current bloodshed. The US, Russia and the UN are working intensively on the details of the conference; it is inevitable that there will be challenges, but the UN Secretary-General has stressed that the three parties are committed to convening the conference as soon as possible.

[Lord Wood of Anfield]

I thank the Minister for that Answer. Given the failure of the G8 summit to agree a date for the start of the Geneva 2 talks, does the Minister think on reflection that it was a mistake for the Government to spend the run-up to the G8 raising the volume on the possibility of the UK arming the Syrian rebels? Does she agree that it would be damaging for the prospects of an international peace conference if the Government were to repeat the mistake in the coming weeks and months?

[Baroness Warsi]

The Government have consistently approached this matter by responding to the situation on the ground. I do not think that they can be criticised for actually responding to it and encouraging agreement when we think that it is possible. The countries that we are trying to get agreement between—the US and Russia, with the UN of course playing a facilitating role—are all committed to Geneva 2 and to a transitional executive authority that would be in accordance with the wishes of the Syrian people. It was right, in the run-up to the G8, to get as much agreement as possible, and it continues to be right to continue to push Russia and the US to come to an agreement to bring the coalition and the regime around the table.

[The Lord Bishop of Exeter]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that, if the international community is to have any hope of starting to resolve this dreadful situation, all parties to the conflict need to be at the negotiating table? If that is the case—and I ask this particularly in the light of the fourth Question on the Order Paper—how does she respond to the suggestion that this ought also to include Iran?

[Baroness Warsi]

The right reverend Prelate will be aware that this question has been raised in the House before. Our view is that those parties that were party to Geneva 1 should be party to Geneva 2. The challenge that we have at this moment is to get the opposition and the regime around the table to agree a road map. Of course, if other parties can play a constructive role, that, too, would be appreciated, but the role that Iran is playing in Syria at the moment is not considered to be constructive.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

Does my noble friend agree that, in addition to the importance of having Iran at the table, it will also be critical to the success of the conference to have credible members of the Assad Government there, if not President Assad himself? Moreover, the role of Hezbollah, which is often seen to be in alignment with Iran, is actually rather independent. Lebanon is a neighbour and is hugely affected by the civil war in Syria. Will she also consider, in trying to move Geneva 2 forward, whether they might invite all the key players in an open gesture so that we might get reconciliation and agreement at the end of that?

[Baroness Warsi]

I can assure my noble friend that we are trying to do all we can to bring the parties to the table. At the moment, the challenge has been in relation to the regime. We feel that people from the regime should be credible, and should be those who can take decisions and make sure that they are subsequently effected. To try to broaden that beyond the regime at this stage is not something that we think would be constructive.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, further to my noble friend’s question, will the Minister not concede that the Syrian Government have agreed, the Russians have agreed and the Americans have agreed to participate? Did she see a report by Reuters that the leader of the Syrian National Council has said that it is holding out to get more arms and waiting until then to strengthen its negotiating position? Surely, the British Government’s policy in holding out the prospect of giving it arms is therefore counterproductive.

[Baroness Warsi]

I have said on many occasions at this Dispatch Box and maybe should say again that no decision has been taken to arm the Syrian opposition. The noble Lord will be aware that the national coalition has just elected a new president, Ahmed Assi al-Jarba, who has made it his job, among other things—indeed, he did so before his election—to broaden the coalition to include more people within it, to make sure that he unites the coalition. He is committed to the Geneva process.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas]

Will it be the Minister’s policy to make sure that the future housing needs of the refugees who are now in temporary provision are looked at and discussed with the relevant Governments, bearing in mind that many of those concerned cannot return to their original houses, which have been reduced to rubble?

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend will be aware that the largest humanitarian appeal ever has been launched as a result of the situation in Syria. The United Kingdom has made the largest contribution it has ever made to a single humanitarian appeal—£350 million. Indeed, the Secretary of State for International Development was in Lebanon earlier this week pledging further support for Syrian refugees in Lebanon. The long-term solution is to resolve the political situation on the ground so that these people are allowed to return. There are more than 4 million people displaced within Syria and 1.7 million displaced outside it. There is no conceivable way, even as an international community, that we could meet the housing needs of that many people. The solution has to be to create the climate for them to return to their own homes.

[Lord Soley]

Is the Minister aware that the reason that the Russians are reluctant to set a date, and they are reluctant, is that they want the Assad regime to regain as much control of territory as it can to strengthen its hand in negotiations? That cannot be good for Syria or anyone else in the long run, but we need to be realistic about it. There is a reluctance to set a date because the regime wants to extend its control on the land so that it can negotiate from a position of strength.

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I cannot hypothesise about the reasoning for the Russian’s position. Of course, we have different views on handling this crisis, but we have shared fundamental aims. We are both committed to ending the conflict, to stopping Syria fragmenting, to letting the Syrian people decide who governs them and to preventing the growth of violent extremism. We are hopeful that, because we are committed to the same aims, we can reach an agreement on how to get there.

Iran

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will re-establish full diplomatic relations with Iran to coincide with the inauguration of President Hassan Rouhani on 3 August.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, diplomatic relations between the UK and Iran are not severed, but they are at their lowest levels possible. Our respective embassies are closed, but Sweden looks after UK interests in Iran and Oman looks after Iranian interests in the UK. Until we can be confident that Iran will abide by its obligations to protect our staff and allow them to carry out their functions, we cannot have a diplomatic presence in Tehran.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

I thank the Minister for that rather disappointing Answer and point out that President-elect Rouhani was not only elected by a clear majority on the first ballot of the Iranian people but had a majority of more than 12 million people over his nearest rival, the mayor of Tehran. In the past week, he has not only called for the clergy to cease to interfere in the private lives of Iranians and called upon Iranian state television and radio to address Iran’s problems much more honestly and fairly, but has also said that the young people of Iran will benefit from having clear access to the internet.

Given that, and also given that there are now thousands of young Iranians on the streets praising their new president, might we as a country not make at least some gesture, at the point at which he becomes the elected president on 3 August, which will re-open lines of contact more closely between Britain and Iran. France and other European nations are already establishing their willingness to work more closely with the new Government.

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend has much more practical experience on this issue than I. Having visited the country on a number of occasions, she has seen the situation on the ground. I can assure her that we are open to an improvement in the relationship between the United Kingdom and Iran. I acknowledge that this was a predominantly peaceful election with a large turnout and that Mr Rouhani, who will be inaugurated as president in August, has described his win as “victory over extremism”.

Having said that, it is important that we see these words translated into action: there is a whole series of issues on which we want to see a positive approach from Iran. We also have to acknowledge and accept that, although the election was positive and decisive, a very large number of candidates—678—were disqualified, including all 30 of the women who wanted to stand.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

The Minister’s caution is welcome to many of us in this House. In the 22 days up until 8 July—only two days ago—75 people were executed in Iran. One of those was only 15 at the time of their arrest and some of these executions were mass ones, with as many as 21 being executed at the same time. Surely the Government are right to exercise caution. The mullahs are still very much in charge, no matter who takes over as president in August.

[Baroness Warsi]

Of course the noble Baroness is right. Supreme Leader Khamenei still has a huge amount of influence in many spheres of life in Iran. She is right to say that the human rights situation in Iran is dire. In 2012 there were reports of over 350 executions and 162 executions as of May this year. It has more journalists in prison than almost any other country. Opposition leaders remain detained in prison after two years. We have real human rights and other concerns in Iran. We are open to improving this relationship, and there have been opportunities when officials have met, such as during the E3+3 talks, but it is important, as the noble Baroness says, to remain cautious.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, would my noble friend not accept that it is precisely because of the permanent history of Iran and its human rights infractions that we should support the president just elected? He showed considerable courage in his election campaign and would be immensely supported in his undoubted wish to move away from the dark side of Iranian life if we were to restore diplomatic relations without preconditions.

[Baroness Warsi]

I understand my noble friend’s points, but the one thing that I and most of us who have been involved in foreign policy realise is that the situation is never black or white. There are always many grey areas, as is the case here. The new president has made some positive remarks, but it is important that they are translated into action. However, I can assure my noble friend and other noble Lords that we have contact with the Iranians. For example, last year at the Heart of Asia conference, as part of the discussions on Afghanistan, the Foreign Secretary met Foreign Minister Salehi in the margins of the meeting. There are therefore opportunities for discussions to take place, even at the highest level. However, in terms of restarting diplomatic relations and having an embassy—which, let us not forget, was ransacked in 2011 and where our officials and staff came under attack—it is important that we do so cautiously.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, surely we need direct contact. Will the Government seek assurances from the Iranians that if we sent in a chargé d’affaires, he would be properly protected? Fuller representation can wait until later.

[Baroness Warsi]

I think that we are proposing official-to-official contact, possibly even in a third country, beforehand. That would be the normal course of events, not just in the case of Iran.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, all of us hope that Rouhani will prove to be more reasonable and rational than Ahmadinejad. Is it not important that nobody should have any illusions; that we should make it absolutely clear that sanctions cannot be relaxed until there is real evidence, through inspections or otherwise, that Iran is not proceeding with a nuclear weapons programme; and that, in view of the lamentable record on human rights and other matters that the noble Baroness has just set out, we should reserve even symbolic concessions on our side until the Iranian regime makes some positive move forward?

[Baroness Warsi]

Sanctions are there for a purpose. They are targeted. They are for a specific issue and we have been careful to note that humanitarian goods are protected. However, the noble Lord is right. We have to make progress on substantive issues, and nuclear is one of them.

Egypt

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Thursday 4th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, we are concerned about the prospects for democracy in Egypt. As the Foreign Secretary said in his press statement, the UK does not support military intervention to resolve disputes in a democracy. We want to see a civilian-led Government and prompt, free and fair elections in which all parties are able to take part. We are in touch with political leaders to stress the need for political solutions that can unite Egyptians behind a legitimate democratic outcome.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I am sure that we would all agree with every word that the noble Baroness said, particularly in respect of a return to civilian democratic government as soon as possible. One of the problems in the last election in Egypt was that there were two sectarian non-liberal parties standing for election as opposed to 40 secular liberal parties. Of course, Her Majesty’s Government cannot intervene directly, but is it possible for them to encourage agencies that already work with the Department for International Development on these issues, such as the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, to advise and mentor the profusion of secular liberal parties in Egypt in order to provide effective party organisation, which is so necessary in any democratic society?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, as noble Lords are aware, I am always incredibly cautious about intervening in a way where we are trying to affect the outcome of elections in any country, but I take the noble Baroness’s point about working with parties in preparation for an election. Indeed, that is what we have been doing through the Arab partnership fund. I know from my experience when I was in Egypt that the opposition appeared to be fractured, but the current situation is much more complicated. The National Salvation Front, the Tamarod, the main group that has been calling for the protests against President Morsi that have resulted in the current situation, has secular parties in it, but alongside the Defence Minister yesterday when the announcement was made that President Morsi would be removed was the Sheikh al-Azhar and the head of the Coptic Church. This is not just a pure fight between secularists and parties that feel that religion should be part of the state. It is much more complex than that. We are urging all parties to go back to a democratic process. Military intervention is not the way forward.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, having met the Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo after the fall of President Mubarak, does the Minister share my disappointment that Mr Morsi clearly was either unable or unwilling to recognise that democracy means governing not on behalf of the minority who elected you but on behalf of the whole country? In any renewed election, that is the appeal that must go out from the rest of the world.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Warsi]

The journey to democracy is a long and hard process. Along the way there will be many challenges. Indeed, it took us hundreds of years to get to the point where we had an effective democracy. I take my noble friend’s point that this had to go beyond elections; there had to be an inclusive process and there have been challenges along the way. It is important that we understand that, although some of the concerns that were being raised by the opposition were of course right in terms of progress on the economy and progress on inclusivity, concerns were also raised that President Morsi was seen as being too close to the US and too close to the Qataris—partners, of course, with whom we work incredibly closely. That is why it is important to go back to saying that military intervention to deal with disputes is not the way forward in Egypt. Parties must return to a democratic process and then be prepared to stand behind the results of that democratic process.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale]

My Lords, the United States has a very clear position on overseas development assistance in response to military coups. What will be the position of the British Government in relation to Egypt’s overseas development assistance following the events of the past 24 hours?

[Baroness Warsi]

I think that the most constructive way in which both the United Kingdom and our partners can play a role is to ensure that we continue to support the people of Egypt in getting back to a democratic process. I do not feel that an immediate decision to disengage would be the right way forward.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, does the Minister recall that two days ago when I asked her about the intelligence that we might have received about military intervention, she replied,

“it has helpfully been indicated that there is no intention for there to be a military coup”?—[Official Report, 2/7/13; col.1079.]

Does she agree that we need to re-examine the sources of information on which Ministers base their replies in the House? Does she also agree that we need to examine carefully the kind of constitution that is likely to emerge as the army now imposes what it calls caretaker rule? In the new Egypt, if there is no regard for Muslim minorities such as the Shias who were lynched last week in a Shia village, for the Copts whose daughters and women have been abducted, sometimes raped, or for the secularists, who also want the right of full citizenship, and if those things are not guaranteed, there can be no chance for Egypt in the future.

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, Egypt can move forward only if all parties and all citizens within Egypt feel that they have a stake and a role to play in any future democratic outcome. I take the noble Lord’s point, but it would be inappropriate for me to comment on intelligence matters at the Dispatch Box.

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, apparently there were just as many anti-American placards as there were anti-Morsi placards in Tahrir Square. Could the Minister please outline what discussions the UK Government are having with the American Government to ensure that neither country is seen as supporting any future Egyptian Government who seem to be on a trajectory towards a theocracy?

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend makes an important point, to which I was alluding earlier. The campaign of the opposition, the Tamarod, has been incredibly complex and has many facets to it—including not enough progress on economic reform and of course not enough progress on inclusivity—but there is an anti-US, anti-western undertone to much of what has been seen on the streets. It is important, however, that we also take into account the will of the Egyptian people, which is best expressed through a democratic process. It is important that that process takes place quickly and that, once that process has taken place, we work with the leaders chosen by the Egyptian people.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, my noble friend the Minister rightly reminded us of the very slow progress towards mass democracy in the history of this country. We went though having, first, freedom and the rule of law, then constitutional government and then democracy. Democracy was the icing on the cake. Does the Minister not agree that there is not much point in having the icing if you do not have the cake?

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, as your Lordships can probably tell, I like icing and cake. My noble friend makes an important point. It took us hundreds of years to come to the conclusions and deal with the issues to which he refers and there were long and bloody disputes over the role of the church and the role of the state. These are discussions that are taking place in Egypt and, of course, across the Middle East and north Africa. We now require strategic patience. We must allow this process to take place. Of course, there will be many bumps along the way, but it is important that all parties are allowed to take part in any future democratic process. That is why, among other things, we have this morning called on the authorities to free any Muslim Brotherhood senior figures; it is important that they, too, can take part in any future democratic elections.

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, in her response on Tuesday, the noble Baroness said that we do not try to tell people what to do and that it was a matter for them. I hope that she will accept today that nothing in my question—or, indeed, in that of my noble friend Lady Symons—suggests anything else. Over the years, the FCO has facilitated local discussions in Egypt and worked through public diplomacy briefs and the Westminster Foundation for Democracy. It has been friendly help, not interference. I think that we were given something of an assurance today that there will be discussions. However, the House is entitled to know in a little more detail how we are going to set about that. Otherwise, it seems to be against a background where it is very hard to make any assessment of what is likely to happen, when it will happen and what impact we think we will have.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Warsi]

I think that the noble Lord would accept that for the Foreign Office to outline that, and for me to do so at the Dispatch Box, within 16 hours of what has happened in Egypt would be completely inappropriate and incorrect. We need to be patient. We need to understand the situation on the ground. We need to see how things play out over the next 24 to 48 hours. Of course, we have our ambassador and officials on the ground who are looking at this, but it is important that we play a supportive and helpful role rather than being seen to be leading an agenda that clearly must be led by the Egyptian people. The noble Lord must be careful if he expects the Foreign Office or this Government to act in a knee-jerk fashion to anything that happens around the world.

Egypt

Baroness Warsi Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of recent demonstrations and civil unrest in Egypt.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, over the last few days we have witnessed some very large demonstrations in Egypt. Although they have been largely peaceful, we remain concerned about reports of violence and in particular by the large number of reported rapes and sexual assaults. We urge everyone to do all they can to prevent this. We call on all sides to work together to resolve the current situation in a manner that brings stability to Egypt and helps it complete its transition to democracy.

[Baroness Berridge]

I thank my noble friend for her Answer. As more than 14 million Egyptians from both rural and urban locations took to the streets, this morning President Obama telephoned President Morsi to say that democracy is about more than just elections. The time period outlined by the demonstrators runs out this very afternoon. What will Her Majesty’s Government do today to support the Egyptian people, who are attempting to ensure that the January 2011 revolution delivers a Government who respect the social, political and religious rights of all Egyptians?

[Baroness Warsi]

I agree with my noble friend. It is absolutely right that democracy goes beyond just elections. As noble Lords are aware, there has been an ongoing issue about the Egyptian constitution. There has been much toing and froing, both in relation to that and also to the electoral law, which has passed between the emergency Shura Council and the Supreme Constitutional Court. We urge all parties to engage with the democratic process. It is important that democracy is allowed to succeed, and we urge protestors to protest peacefully and ensure that they are engaged in the democratic process.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, is the Minister able to give us any clearer intelligence about precisely what the Egyptian defence Minister meant when he said that the Egyptian army would intervene within 24 hours if there was no resolution of the conflict between the protestors and the Morsi Government? Does she agree that the last year has been a year of lost opportunities? Does she also agree that the attempts to impose Sharia law, and the failure to protect secularists and the substantial Coptic community in Egypt, are two of the reasons why protestors are again in Tahrir Square?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Lord is of course familiar with the reports in the press about what the defence Minister said. However, it has helpfully been indicated that there is no intention for there to be a military coup. It is anticipated that this period may allow President Morsi to engage with and reach out to members of the opposition. We have concerns—and indeed have made statements—about the imposition of religious controls through the constitution. I had discussions with both the Sheikh al-Azhar and the new Coptic Pope in February of this year, during which these concerns were raised. It is important that freedom of religion, which includes the freedom not to have a religion, is absolutely respected within Egypt.

[The Lord Bishop of Exeter]

My Lords, perhaps I may follow that up. The vulnerability that the religious minorities of Egypt have experienced since the departure of President Mubarak was brought home during the visit last week of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury to Cairo, where he met and heard from the leaders of a number of Egypt’s religious communities. Can the noble Baroness tell us what is being done to encourage and support religious leaders who build relationships across divides to provide a public voice for calm and non-violence, and what guarantees have been sought to protect Christian minorities in the event of an escalation of violence?

[Baroness Warsi]

The visit of the Archbishop of Canterbury to Egypt was timely, and of course we are concerned about the ongoing violence, especially the violence which occurred in April at the Coptic church, St Mark’s Cathedral. We are engaged in a number of projects in Egypt through the Arab Partnership. Some £1.7 million has been allocated for 2012-13, and many of the projects involve grass-roots work with community organisations from different faiths to create a sense of understanding. It is important that the discussions and dialogue remain open, and I understand that there is an ongoing dialogue between al-Azhar and the Coptic Church.

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the detail of her response about an acute problem where demonstrations are growing in size and deaths have been recorded, where the army has threatened intervention, and where President Morsi says that he has no plans whatever to change policy, despite resignations from his own Government. Formal statements have been made by President Obama, and the United Nations has issued two statements. Mr Hague has encapsulated our Government’s position in 140 characters —he has tweeted. He says that he is concerned, and so am I, but I wonder if that is the way to express the gravitas of the United Kingdom in these circumstances. What advice has been given to our ambassador on an engagement with the contending forces to achieve a democratic and pluralist settlement that reflects a serious view from this country?

[Baroness Warsi]

I take issue with what the noble Lord has said. He will be aware that the Prime Minister was one of the first leaders to go into Egypt after the revolution. The Foreign Secretary has visited, as has the Minister with responsibility. We are incredibly engaged in the process, as is our ambassador. I think that the noble Lord will also agree that it is important that we are not seen to be deeply involved in telling the Egyptian people how they need to resolve this matter. We express our concern, we support them through projects and we make known our views. However, I do not think it is always necessary to engage in involvement by interfering in every aspect of local democracy.