Lord Barnett
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions the Prime Minister has had with fellow European Union leaders about treaty changes that could be made before the proposed United Kingdom referendum on the European Union in 2017.
The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)
My Lords, the Prime Minister regularly discusses a range of EU issues with his counterparts, including changes needed to make the EU more competitive, flexible and democratically accountable. These discussions include the substance of reforms and the means to achieve them, which range from legislation to treaty changes. Most recently, the Prime Minister held discussions in the margins of the June European Council and the Lough Erne summit, bilaterally with counterparts from Italy, Germany, Spain and France, and with the Commission President.
Lord Barnett
Has the noble Baroness seen a recent article in the Times which said, “A senior government figure”—the Times did not name him or her—
“said that other European leaders were privately offering concessions to Mr Cameron so long as reforms were agreed on an EU-wide basis”.
Is it not clear that if that were to happen it would require all the other 27 countries to sign and that that is extremely unlikely, to put it mildly, before 2017? Has it not always been clear that offering a referendum on the condition of various things happening is likely to create great difficulties, especially when the referendum is on a major constitutional issue? Can the Minister assure us that when the Prime Minister has an agreement, whether it is agreed Europe-wide or not, he will say to the community here that in a referendum they should say yes to staying in the eurozone?
Baroness Warsi
The noble Lord raises a number of issues. First, I can assure him that the process of reform is ongoing. This Government have been able to negotiate a number of issues in favour of the United Kingdom’s position. On the position in Europe about whether there will be a treaty change in due course, views differ. The Italian Prime Minister, Mr Enrico Letta, said recently that we need a more flexible Europe, that the role Britain plays in the European Union is a positive one, and that he thinks that treaty change can be achieved in the near future. The noble Lord will also be familiar with the statements from President Barroso and the plan published by the four Presidents in December last year, which again clearly show that the possibility of a treaty is definitely there.
Lord Clarke of Hampstead
My Lords, did the discussions the Prime Minister had with his European colleagues include the matter of the European directives on procurement policy? I am sure the Minister will know that a trusted and loyal servant of this House will lose her employment because of the European directive, which seems to work against small businesses. Does this matter concern the Government? The lady in question supplies a floristry service to this House and is going to be without an income and a job because of a directive. I hope that the Minister and the Government will join me in congratulating the Lord Speaker on initiating a collection to help ameliorate the hardship that the loss of her job will cause.
Baroness Warsi
Of course, this Government are committed to cutting the costs of European regulation and I am sure that the noble Lord will be aware of what progress has already been made in terms of cutting bureaucracy for the smallest businesses in Europe. On the very specific question he has raised, I am not familiar with the case, so I would be grateful if the noble Lord could write to me. I will write to him fully in return.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the alternative proposals of the German finance Minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, for a two-step process towards a banking union have been floated precisely in order to avoid treaty change? The Germans have now come to the view that treaty change would be very difficult to achieve in light of the credibility of the eurozone at the moment.
Baroness Warsi
My noble friend is aware that the German finance Minister claimed that banking union could not be completed without a change to the treaties and therefore he has proceeded in the way he has. I go back to the general question on this matter, which is that reforms—including in relation to a banking union—can start to happen right now. It is right that we should continue to negotiate a better position for the United Kingdom, always keeping in mind the longer-term view of what more we can negotiate for a position that is better for us within the European Union.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, is there any truth in the rumour that Mrs Merkel has agreed to go along with minimal cosmetic treaty changes in the hope that the British people can be deceived into voting for what will still be a fundamentally unreformed European Union?
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, I am not in the habit of commenting on rumour. What I can say is that I am aware that Mrs Merkel is committed to a more competitive and flexible Europe and that in a number of areas we do, in fact, agree.
Lord Tugendhat
My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that there is too much pessimism around these questions? Not only have there been encouraging responses from the German Government, the Dutch Government and the Italian Government, it is quite clear that in the coming two or three years either the eurozone will come closer together, in which case there will have to be a general negotiation with the non-eurozone countries, including ourselves, or the eurozone will split apart, in which case again there will have to be a general recasting of relationships. Within that context, the Prime Minister’s ambitions seem perfectly reasonable. Does she not agree?
Lord Davies of Stamford
My Lords, last week the Government faced deserved criticism and indeed derision on the farce of opting out of the justice and home affairs measures and then opting back in. Is it not equally absurd to decide now on a referendum in 2017 or on any other fixed date years ahead? An awful lot can happen between now and then. There might even be a new treaty—the Germans are already talking along those lines—that might be under negotiation in 2017, so we would not know what we were voting on. Is it not time for the Government to stop taking decisions on European policy that are illogical and do not make the slightest practical sense, but are simply based on attempts to pander to the eurosceptics in the Tory party and desperate attempts to try to retrieve the UKIP vote?
Baroness Warsi
I am glad the noble Lord has got that off his chest. He will recollect that the amount of support the Government had in relation to that particular opt-out was clear in relation to the majorities in both Houses.
Lord Grocott
Am I right in my understanding of the Prime Minister’s position on the European referendum? In the event of there being a Conservative victory at the next election, he will hold a referendum that will be based on negotiations which he will have conducted and, when he has completed those negotiations, he will recommend a yes vote. If I am wrong in that assumption, can the Minister explain the basis on which the Prime Minister would recommend a no vote?
Baroness Warsi
The Government’s position is very clear: there will not be a referendum before the next election. The Conservative Party has made its position entirely clear. The noble Lord understands that there will be a period of negotiation and then we will go to the country and ask people to vote. What would be interesting for these Benches and the country to hear is what the Labour Party’s position is. We believe that the country should be allowed a vote and a decision. I would like to hear what the Labour Party thinks.