Citizenship and Civic Engagement (Select Committee Report)

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 19th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, it is a great privilege to contribute to this debate. I refer noble Lords to my entry in the register and my position as chair of the Charity Commission, but I emphasise that I am speaking in a personal capacity. Indeed, many of the themes and topics that this committee looked into are ones in which I have long had an interest.

I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, and the committee on producing a valuable and insightful report on what I consider as this most important of topics: how citizens are made, how strong communities are forged and maintained, and how we ensure a stable and flourishing society. The issues that the report examines are not quaint, polite or fringe matters whose importance pales in comparison to “harder” and more urgent political challenges—quite the reverse. It is my firm belief that questions of citizenship, community, how we relate to one another and how we see ourselves fitting into wider society are not secondary at all; they are at the heart of many of the serious challenges that we face.

I am pleased that the report acknowledges that healing divides that “threaten our social cohesion”, and indeed arguably present a risk to our democracy, cannot be achieved by state action alone. We must look also to the individual—to our rights and responsibilities as citizens; to the community—the question of what we as individuals can expect from and owe to the place where we live; and to society and the question of power—who holds it, and what responsibilities they have towards those affected by that power. I welcome that the report makes clear that civic engagement is also about,

“setting down and being very clear about … what is expected of everyone in terms of shared British values and standards of behaviour”.

A common understanding and shared set of values and standards of behaviour are crucial to social cohesion and a flourishing society in which all feel protected and are able to succeed.

We sometimes hear the argument that talking in terms of national values or standards is divisive or in some way alienating, but it is quite the reverse. In a diverse, multi-ethnic society such as ours, it is all the more important for all of us that there are benchmarks of behaviour and attitude that we can expect from one another and on which we can hold ourselves and others to account—benchmarks, standards and values that go beyond anything that can or should be enshrined in law. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, said that the committee did not seek to prescribe anything in this area, but I think that we all know what we are talking about. They are things such as demonstrating consideration and respect for each other; taking responsibility for the immediate environment in which we live and work; and helping and assisting others when they are in need—selflessly and without expecting anything in return.

Agreeing and maintaining such values is as much about empowerment as it is about enforcement. Power does not, of course, rest only with those of us who enjoy great privileges. Anyone who holds a position of authority has some power at their disposal. The problem is that enough people are not recognising their power and the potential to show leadership and make a positive difference if they use it. I think that we have to accept responsibility for that. Too often, we have allowed the status of the position that these people hold to be diminished. If we are to help people from all walks of life to recognise and understand their power and their responsibility as leaders and role models for the shared standards of behaviour that we recognise are essential to our society then we need to be explicit in making them leaders and showing them respect for what they do, whether they are a bus driver, shopkeeper or postman. For example, a local shopkeeper may not have a formal position of power in his or her community but they have immense influence and can show important leadership in the expectations they set for how customers behave towards one another, in the way they maintain their shopfront and in the courage they show in challenging poor conduct. Anyone who shows that kind of leadership needs to know that they have the backing of those responsible for even more powerful structures around which society is built. We need to start building a coalition between leaders at every level.

Over the summer, the Charity Commission conducted research into people’s expectations of charities. Noble Lords will not be surprised to hear me say that people care deeply about charities and believe they are incredibly important to our society, both for the beneficiaries and in terms of their impact on local communities and society at large. What struck us at the commission was that despite the huge range of attitudes to and relationships with charities which people from all types of background shared with us, everyone agreed on the basics, such as that a charity should demonstrate higher standards of conduct and behaviour because it is a charity. People may support one charity and not another, based on the causes they care about, but the public rightly expect to be able to trust and respect all charities for the way in which they pursue that cause and in the behaviours they show along the way.

That research is very specific to charities—which have to live up to the special status they hold, because if they do not embody what charity means in the eyes of the public, who will? But the research also reinforced for me personally the public yearning for a common set of standards that can be shared by people from all walks of life and at every “level” of society—for want of a better expression. I agree that we all have a responsibility for behaving as we expect others to behave and for showing some courage in challenging others when they do not meet those standards. But when we are out there on our own, whoever we are, that is hard. Whether it involves litter, feet on seats, queuing or loud music at inappropriate times or places, those in charge of buses, trains, banks, restaurants, supermarkets and so on need to help uphold our common expectations.

Alongside the need for big business bosses, bankers, the clergy and we politicians and parliamentarians to show leadership through our personal conduct, we need those in charge of organisations where people gather to help people demonstrate and protect their shared values and standards. We all have a part to play, but those responsible for the places where we gather need to step up to the plate. If we can respect one another for the way in which we conduct ourselves, we are much less likely to be worried about agreeing with one another on politics or matters of faith. Those responsible for coming up with solutions to our most complex problems are more likely to be trusted if they show similar respect. Cultural norms, standards and values are not an imposition for individuals, they are a protection and they have the potential to build bridges. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Hodgson and his committee on a very important report.

Hinkley Point

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 11th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tebbit (Con)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, is not actually a Cross-Bencher, although he does sit among them, which throws a little complication into whose turn it is next. However, I suggest that we hear from the Labour Front Bench and then go back to my noble friends behind me.

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, further to the noble Lord’s question regarding safety, France’s independent nuclear safety authority has found irregularities in an audit from Areva after it detected a very serious anomaly in a nuclear reactor vessel in the country’s Flamanville European pressurised reactor. Britain is using the same model at Hinkley Point. Has the Minister’s department asked for a report on this from the Office for Nuclear Regulation and whether these irregularities are also present at Hinkley Point? Will any report be published to allay public concerns regarding nuclear safety at Hinkley Point, or indeed any other nuclear reactor in the UK?

Energy Security: Hinkley Point

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Broers (CB)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend has been trying to get in on several Questions for several days.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, is not one of the problems that, in negotiating with EDF on the two nuclear power stations at Hinkley and Sizewell in Suffolk—I declare my interest in the latter—the Government were outfoxed by EDF? EDF has shown an astonishingly ruthless determination to get exactly what it wants, lacking, in some cases, in integrity. To give one example, in Suffolk, in order to persuade people that there was support for its local transport plans, EDF summoned a meeting at which £20 notes were handed out and the people were filmed.

Renewable Energy: Solar

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 14th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, it rains a lot in Britain, and we have a great deal of potential water power here, which can help us—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I am so sorry; because of the dispute, and time is up, we will have to move on.

Renewable Energy

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 24th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

Order. This is one of these occasions when it is necessary for the House to recognise that there are a range of conventions. One is that each party in the House gets at least one go in a Question. There is also the respect that we pay to former Leaders of the House who are also trying to get in and ask a question. So I am going to sit down—bearing in mind that we have two minutes left and there is a former Leader trying to ask a question, and a Member of the Lib Dem Benches, and the Lib Dems have not yet asked a question—and leave it to the House to decide.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

My Lords, I am grateful to the former Leader of the House, the noble Lord, Lord Richard. The Committee on Climate Change report on the cost-effective path to 2050 indicated that nuclear and onshore wind are likely to have broadly comparable costs to new, unabated gas. Given the fact that the predominance of the situation in Scotland has been affected by the recent government decision, should not the Government be open to amendments to the energy Bill that could be coming forward to make sure that there is a distinct case for Scotland, so that support for Scottish jobs and the Scottish economy is put on a comparable level as support for Chinese investors and the nuclear industry in the United Kingdom?

Climate Change

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Wednesday 17th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, this is clearly a topical Question that everybody wants to get in on. The House seems to be calling for my noble friend Lord Ridley, and then we should perhaps hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones.

[Viscount Ridley]

My Lords, given that global warming has been much slower over the past 30 years than what 95% of the IPCC models had forecast, and given that 14 peer-reviewed papers published since 2011 find that climate sensitivity to carbon dioxide is much lower than the 3 degrees assumed by the Government’s climate impact models, what is the Minister’s preferred estimate of climate sensitivity? Does he agree that the best scientific evidence now suggests that it will be 100 years before we hit the 2 degrees threshold and that perhaps there are other more urgent humanitarian and environmental priorities?

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[Lord Taverne (LD)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, this is not going to work unless we all try to follow the conventions that we are all accustomed to. I indicated before that it seemed that the House was asking for the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, to have an opportunity to ask a question. Then, we will see what time we have left as to where we go next.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

Thank you.

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, should other countries such as Norway divest themselves of fossil fuel investments, the London Stock Exchange would be highly exposed because we carry something like 19% of the global carbon budget? Are the Government thinking about stimulating the green economy, for example, through PFI contracts or similar public service contracts?

Wales Bill

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab)]

My Lords, I am a little disappointed that the Minister is not here yet. Is she arriving? Should I propose that we adjourn until the Minister arrives?

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I offer sincere apologies to the noble Baroness and the Committee for the delay in the Minister returning to the Chamber to continue the Committee stage of the Bill. I had been reliably informed that she was just outside the Chamber and I know that she certainly is not far away. I would be happy to remain in place for the noble Baroness’s speech and to ensure that the Minister is properly apprised of the points that the noble Baroness makes as soon as my noble friend returns.

While I am here, I remind noble Lords of what I said following the Statement that we just heard on Scotland: clearly there is much that noble Lords would like to debate about devolution following the referendum. I am pleased that we will have a debate in government time later this month. I very much look forward to that. Once again, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness and to noble Lords for their patience.

Northern Ireland

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments, and particularly welcome his condemnation of the violence and the stress he laid on the importance of respect in the situation in which Northern Ireland finds itself. I also thank him for his support for those so closely involved in controlling the violence. They have had a very difficult job in the past few days.

The noble Lord asked a number of questions. Seventy-one police have been injured and we believe that six have been hospitalised, of whom two were police serving under the mutual aid scheme. There were more than 1,000 mutual aid officers in Northern Ireland at the weekend and yesterday.

The noble Lord asked about the cost of the problem and who bears it. This is where the real tragedy lies financially, because the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland bears that cost. That puts even greater stress and pressure on the police budget. The economic implications are very serious because of the impact it has on Northern Ireland, but it has immediately a massive financial impact on the Department of Justice.

The noble Lord asked about paramilitary involvement. That is something that will be very carefully investigated. He also asked about the Secretary of State’s discussions. She has had a whole range of conversations and meetings, both prior to and over the weekend. She was, of course, in Northern Ireland throughout this period. She is very supportive of the work that will be done by Richard Haass and the work that is being done by the Executive, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, to bring a more peaceful situation back into play.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, before the clerk starts the Clock, in the interests of all noble Lords with an interest in this matter, may I remind the House that the Companion guides us that all Statements are an opportunity for brief questions only?

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[Lord Tebbit]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Perhaps we can hear from my noble friend Lord Tebbit first.

[Lord Tebbit]

Is it not the case that violence begets violence? The Parades Commission gave in to the violence of the republican community against these parades. Now, of course, they are faced with the violence of the unionist community against the surrender to the republicans’ violence. How do you break out of that?

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, we have previously debated amendments that would help to secure oversight of this system, if indeed this Bill survives the legislative process. Most, though not all, noble Lords who have spoken in the debates in Committee have expressed considerable reservations about the principle. Most have then spoken to amendments that would mitigate the effect of the principle if indeed it emerges in the final transition of the Bill to the statute book.

For my part, I concur very strongly with the views of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, regarding the establishment of a system for identifying the case law and the judgments and making them available, at some point at any rate, to inform the judicial process. That seems very important to me and certainly I lean towards amendments that ultimately would require the publication of reasons for a decision.

I am less attracted, however, by the first parts of the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, which would allow the media to intervene in proceedings. I am not quite certain of the form in which such intervention would take place, but in any event I am not at all persuaded thus far that this is something that would materially assist the process as opposed to simply promoting the interests of the media. It is difficult to see how that would work in practice, so we cannot support those elements of the amendment.

However, we look to the Government to respond constructively to the points made about the recording and availability of case law and the justification for particular decisions being made at a point when security interests are no longer as strong as when the closed material procedures, if indeed they exist, are implemented in a particular case. There ought at some point to be a disclosure. To that extent we sympathise with that part of the amendment, but in relation to its first parts we cannot really support what the noble Baroness is trying to do.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Berridge for tabling this amendment because it is important that, in a Bill such as this, we have an opportunity to discuss freedom of expression and the media’s important role in holding the Government to account and scrutinising what happens in this country. I think my noble friend suggested that one of the purposes of her amendment was to ensure that there is public trust in the judicial system. She certainly made several remarks about the importance of open justice, and was joined in that by other noble Lords. We obviously share that objective and, from the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, we are aware of its concerns about the impact on public trust and confidence in the courts.

However, it is important that we remind ourselves that this Bill is also about allowing justice to be done where that has not been possible before—and doing so in a way that is as fair as we can make it. Throughout the debates on the closed material procedure aspect of the Bill the Government, through my noble and learned friend, have been at pains to stress that as much material and judicial reasoning as is possible without damaging national security will go into open court. The special advocates will assist with pushing as much material as possible out of the closed case into open court, and at all stages of the process: at the application stage, during the substance of the case and at the point of judgment, when they will challenge the material in the closed judgment and make representations about why it should be in the open. The media will have access to all open elements of proceedings, as normal. Indeed, as I will come on to explain, we believe that in this process they will have access to more material than they might otherwise have had.

My noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, referred to safeguards. I think the noble Lord said that it was important to build in safeguards in order not to undermine the need for secrecy. There was some consensus built around the later legs of the amendment, which refer to what I might describe as the declassification of the judgments. I will come back to that later.

My immediate response to the first part of the amendment is that it raises some practical difficulties as far as giving the media access to intervening in the proceedings. Indeed, I was interested to hear the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, express his doubts about whether that would actually add to the proceedings. While I know that my noble friend mentioned the suggestion of the media being appointed a special advocate in order to be able to intervene in proceedings, it is important to recognise that the media is not in and of itself an institution with a formal responsibility to represent the public interest. The media have several functions, whether to report or to investigate. Certainly in open proceedings, they are there representing the public alongside the public who are already there. To give them access to something that is closed because the nature of the discussion and the evidence at issue could, if brought into the open, damage national security, would seem an anomaly. It would also be difficult to make possible in practice.

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[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

I fully accept that Article 10(2) has exceptions and that the Bill falls within those exceptions. The problem is one of a lack of legal certainty. As my noble friend has indicated, the restrictions must be prescribed by law, and legal certainty therefore requires some accessibility. When courts think of making injunctions that affect freedom of speech, such as Spycatcher-type injunctions, they give notice to the press so that it can come along and explain why it thinks that the procedure or injunction is inappropriate. I perfectly understand, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said, that there is an objection to the press being present throughout the proceedings, but I have not so far heard any reason why the press cannot at least be informed. The press could come along on a Section 6 application and explain why it thinks that the procedure is appropriate when wrongdoing has been alleged. I do not understand, either, why there should be no mechanism to ensure that judgments that are secret should be published when they have lost their secrecy. Those are the kinds of issues that arise under Article 10.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I shall come on to the issue of redacted judgments in a moment. As to whether the press should be notified at the point of application for a CMP, it may well be informed, but it will not be informed if the issue is related to national security. That is the clear distinction between this kind of case and a PII case because, if the Secretary of State is making an application under CMP, she is doing so because she considers national security to be at risk.

The important points of principle for certainty are generally dealt with on the face of the open judgment. When that is published, the certainty that the noble Lord looks for will be provided. Sensitive details of the case may not be released but this does not mean all details will be placed in closed judgments. Judges are well accustomed to considering what material is published in a final judgment. At the moment the media and the public do not get this information. Instead, they are left with accusations that have not been investigated.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

From what the Minister said, I am not clear whether it is envisaged that the fact of an application being made for a closed material proceeding should be kept secret. I had not understood that that was the purpose of the Bill or that any rules of court could be made to make the fact of the application secret. What is the Government’s intention towards that process? Is it intended that there will be certain circumstances when even the fact of an application under Section 6 is to be kept secret?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As I understand it, in some instances the fact of the application will not be made public because that is also what happens now under PII. If the knowledge that the application has been made could give rise to concern about national security, it would not be made public, but that does not mean that all applications would be kept secret. If necessary, I will come back to clarify that point for the noble and learned Lord.

On the points covered in proposed new paragraphs (d) and (e), to which all noble Lords have referred, about closed judgments and the point at which they may no longer be considered classified or secret and could be made public, I refer noble Lords to the extended debate in Committee last week when my noble and learned friend made the following point:

“The Lord Chancellor's code of practice on the management of records, issued under Section 46 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, provides guidance on the management of records held by bodies subject to the Public Records Act 1958. Authorities are required to identify records worthy of permanent preservation and transfer them to the National Archives”.—[Official Report, 17/7/12; col. 209.]

However, we are considering this matter and will continue to do so between now and Report.

My noble friend Lady Berridge referred again to the database of closed judgments. I responded to her last week, I believe, that that issue is now in hand because of the useful contributions from the JCHR on this matter. She went on to ask whether it could go beyond the head notes to form cases. I do not have an answer for her at the moment but I will, of course, come back to her. As to the very specific points raised about the same issue by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I believe that I have already covered those in the remarks that I have just made.

In conclusion, we are discussing points of fundamental importance concerning freedom of the press and public trust in the justice system. I will come back to the noble and learned Lord on his point, but I hope that I have been able to demonstrate that the Bill will help to enhance transparency and public trust rather than undermine them, and in doing so we will reinforce the principles of open justice while protecting the UK’s national security.

I noticed the noble and learned Lord looking at me rather sceptically then. Before I sit down, I think that it is worth repeating that during this process only some material will be considered in closed proceedings. The material that will be in open proceedings will be accessible to the media, and there will be more than there is at this time. The arrangements being considered will ensure that the media will have access to the cases in a way that is consistent with their responsibility to report and to hold the Government to account, but, as I said at the start, they do not have a formal role in that process. Primarily what we are looking for in this Bill is that we are allowed to ensure that justice is done where it has not been seen to be done previously. That is an essential part of what we are trying to achieve. I hope that my noble friend feels able to withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

The Minister has referred twice to the vital principle that justice must be done, but on neither occasion has she added the usual part of that, which is that justice must be done and must manifestly be seen to be done. Between now and Report, could the Government reflect on the implications of having a procedure where even the fact of an application for closed proceedings under Clause 6 would be secret? I know of only one precedent for that kind of thing in this country. It was Defence Regulation 18B during the Second World War, which led to the infamous decision in Liversidge v Anderson. I cannot believe that such a conclusion is what the Government really intend.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I always listen carefully to the points that my noble friend makes. This is about ensuring that justice is done, and of course justice should be seen to be done. It has been said many times before in debates on this Bill that this is not the optimum system, and it is not the one that we would want to follow. However, if the Government are to be able to defend themselves against allegations and indeed if somebody is to have the opportunity to make a claim against the Government and see that claim through, we think that this system will deliver that. We are bringing forward this Bill because ultimately that is what we want to achieve.

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Lester, for their contributions on this amendment. I am also grateful, in part, for the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. I hope that he can be persuaded of the need to inform the media, and not only for the reasons outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. In my view, in reality these cases are going to be twin-tracked. Either legal proceedings will be preceded by allegations in the media or allegations will be made at the same time as those proceedings. That is the nature of these cases. Unfortunately, they often involve allegations of rendition and so on. Therefore, it is very important to think through thoroughly the implications of not notifying the press when those allegations will be rolling at the same time in our national newspapers, on Twitter and in blogs. It is important to understand the implications of not informing the press of the application for a closed material procedure.

I am not surprised to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, of the practical difficulties of notifying the media in these circumstances. There is also some weight in the comments of my noble friend Lady Stowell in relation to the anomaly of having a special advocate representing a public interest and seeing information to which the public does not have access. However, I think it is accepted that this system is anomalous and that there are going to be practical difficulties in ensuring open justice. When you have an anomalous system, it is not surprising if you breed slightly more anomalies in trying to achieve the best result you can in the circumstances. It is important to remember that, if it is told, the press will be there representing the public administration of justice. That is a serious matter that counterweighs the anomaly or the practical difficulties. As I have outlined, there has been a tradition of the press intervening and representing the issues in certain cases.

Before closing, I wish to refer to two matters that were mentioned. My noble friend Lady Stowell talked about the public preferring evidence to be taken into account so that the Government can defend themselves, and she also mentioned the money that is paid out if they cannot do so. A lot of confidence is placed in the public’s view of this system. I do not like to rely on opinion polls because I think that the answers depend on how the questions are phrased. However, what evidence are the Government relying on? There is a high degree of public mistrust. As soon as you mention secret trials, you get a very adverse reaction, particularly when dealing with actions against the Government in these circumstances. I should be grateful for some clarification of the basis on which the Government are sure that the public are behind the introduction of this system.

Finally, my noble friend outlined something that has been an issue throughout a lot of the debate on these amendments. She mentioned only some material being closed. At the same time, a big thrust of the Government’s argument has been that these cases are saturated by intelligence material. Therefore, we need some explanation here. It may be that only some material will be closed but we are also talking about cases that are saturated by intelligence material and where most of the proceedings will be closed and therefore the secret judgment will perhaps be a blank. I hope that the Minister can provide further clarification. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, as in the debate last week, tonight’s dinner break business is not time-limited. However, unlike in last week’s debate, I suggest that we have an hour’s break for dinner. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford and others due to speak tonight for their patience. I am sure that we will be ready to get cracking again in an hour’s time, but perhaps noble Lords will watch the monitor as we do not need to keep strictly to one hour.

House resumed. Committee to begin again not before 9.16 pm.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am merely a Whip, and do not have any powers that would extend to conferring a peerage on anybody, but I will certainly ensure that those that have more authority are aware of the view of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, about Mr Anderson QC.

The amendment moved by my noble friend Lady Berridge is part of a wider set of amendments that she has tabled—some of which we debated last week—which are part of a package of measures that noble Lords would like to see introduced in order to ensure that the Bill, if it becomes an Act, is reviewed post its Royal Assent.

I can understand the reasons behind that because, as we have acknowledged on many occasions, this is a Bill which would introduce very different measures to the justice system than have been in place hitherto. However, we believe that the amendment is not necessary. I hope I can explain why to the satisfaction of your Lordships this evening.

In the case of Norwich Pharmacal, the primary problem we are seeking to address is how we provide reassurance to our allies that we can protect information shared with us in confidence. We had an extensive debate about this before dinner. One question we could ask ourselves is: would we share a secret with someone knowing full well that it was only guaranteed to be safe for up to 12 months, and that after that time the person might be required to release that information? We expect our allies to protect intelligence material we share with them from disclosure, and they expect the same from us. The inadequacies in our current ability to properly protect classified information provided by foreign Governments have already seriously undermined confidence among our key allies, as we have heard this evening.

A time-limited protection will simply not provide enough reassurance. It would cause our allies to continue to doubt our ability to keep material safe from disclosure. For these reasons the measures in Clauses 13 and 14 of the Bill remain the only comprehensive safeguard against the serious damage that Norwich Pharmacal relief poses to our national security and international relations.

In relation to proceedings in which the CMPs introduced by Clause 6 would be available, we expect that current CMP live cases would be dealt with in the first year, with stayed cases spread over the two years thereafter, alongside other emerging cases. As noble Lords know who are more familiar with the law than I am, civil claim caseloads can be unpredictable in the long term. I believe it is important that claimants have the continued ability to bring all claims against the Government, and that matters are scrutinised by the courts, rather than returning to the current system, where in some circumstances justice is not possible.

I should remind the House that the Bill provides the power to remove a court or tribunal from the definition of “relevant civil proceeding”, as we heard in previous debates tonight, where there is no longer a case for it to be included. This is already provided for in the order-making power in Clause 11.

As we have discussed several times during previous debates, the final decision to hold a CMP in the High Court, Court of Appeal or a Court of Session will be made by a judge. The judge will determine whether a CMP goes ahead on the grounds that there is some material relevant to the case, the disclosure of which would damage national security. The judge would then decide how each individual piece of evidence should be dealt with, and whether that should be in closed session or in open session. We can be confident that the judge will ensure that the provisions for CMPs will be used only in the very specific and narrow circumstances where that test is met.

In the case of challenges of the Home Secretary’s decision to refuse someone British citizenship or to exclude them from the UK, we are dealing with a category of cases where the court has found that it is potentially fairer to the claimant for there to be a CMP available. The expiry of those clauses would reduce fairness by removing the ability to challenge those decisions effectively.

By way of contrast, there are similar provisions in the TPIM Act. My noble friend referred to the control orders and the introduction of a sunset clause when control orders, the predecessors of TPIMs, were introduced. Under Section 21 of that Act, the powers expire five years after Royal Assent. This can then be extended for further periods of five years. However, TPIMs are unique. They involve measures that have an impact on the daily lives of those subject to the orders, including restrictions on liberty. As a consequence Parliament decided that strict post-legislative measures were needed. There are no sunset provisions in place in any other context where CMPs are available.

I should also point out that in its report the Constitution Committee considered how the Bill should be reviewed after Royal Assent, and it did not recommend a sunset clause. Its report said that the House might wish to consider the Bill being independently reviewed five years after it came into force. As I explained in my response to Amendment 67A last week on day 3 of Committee, Bills are normally subject to review three to five years after Royal Assent. The Select Committee responsible will then decide whether it wishes to conduct a further post-legislative inquiry into the Act and it is right to leave it to the Select Committee to decide the form of independent post-legislative scrutiny.

As I said, I recognise that the amendment and others like it that we have discussed previously are inspired by a strong feeling among some noble Lords that we should have in place a thorough process for post-legislative scrutiny on a Bill that is introducing something different. But, as I hope I have been able to outline tonight, the measures that already exist will meet the objective that has been set out by those who spoke in favour of the amendments, and sufficient safeguards are in place without introducing a sunset clause. On the basis of that, I hope that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Berridge]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for illustrating how one can tangent with one amendment to introduce a slightly different topic. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham; I think that we now have a score draw on whether there is support from the Benches opposite for my amendments.

I am of course disappointed to hear that my noble friend does not believe that this is necessary. There are distinctions between control orders that affect the liberty of the citizen as opposed to this jurisdiction. This is a very distinct jurisdiction to be introducing closed material procedures into. It will affect our civil justice process, which is very different from the other legislative regimes. In civil proceedings, it often calls the Government to account for their actions. Vast amounts of resources, as I saw going down to the High Court, are invested in putting someone under a control order. It was said that there is nothing worse for them than being in existence for only a year, even though so much is invested in them and it could have all fallen flat in that year.

Finally, it was said that people would not share secrets thinking that they would be secret only for a year, but there has been agreement around the House that this is a very narrow jurisdiction, particularly after the Omar case that we are dealing with, so there would be no massive knock-back effect on intelligence if there were some kind of sunset clause. I hope that we will be able to return to this matter later on in the proceedings on the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.