Lord Lester of Herne Hill
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Justice and Security Bill [HL]
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Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, I am probably surplus to requirements, but I agree with each of the last four speeches and want to add a couple of obvious points. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, emphasised—and I think he is the first to do so—what we are doing in Parliament now will be closely watched not only in the United States but throughout the common-law world. If the Bill goes through in its present form, I have no doubt that it will be cited as a model to be followed elsewhere, and there will be great pressure from across the Atlantic for this to happen. Therefore, we are the only safeguard to ensure that the legislation that is enacted complies with the principles of open justice, natural justice and equality of arms.
I know that the particular difficulty about intercept evidence—and I strongly support those who want to use it—is that the moment it comes to be seen by a claimant, very sensitive questions will be asked about sources and so on, and that would have to be handled with great care. However, my understanding is that in the United States intercept evidence is used, with proper safeguards. Is anything in this part of the Bill echoed in the United States in respect of intercept evidence? My understanding is that it is not, and that therefore these provisions, to which four Members of the House have objected, would not apply to equivalent United States legislation. If that is true, it is an even further argument in favour of these amendments.
Lord Woolf
My Lords, the submissions put before noble Lords by various Members of the House in favour of these amendments, given their source, require the very greatest attention. I make no cavil at all about the spirit in which they are put forward, but I suggest that the House needs to look at the amendments with regard to how judges operate in practice. The situations in which there are closed proceedings are very limited indeed. Here we are dealing with the use of closed material in civil proceedings, where it is even rarer for there to be the sort of closed proceedings that have been necessary in trials by jury in the criminal courts. A small minority of cases in civil proceedings are tried by a judge alone. Indeed, if there were a need for closed hearings, it would not be practical for what is envisaged here to be used in those very few cases where a jury might care because there is then a purpose in the closed proceedings. The jury could not be told of the evidence that would be the subject matter of the closed proceedings and therefore there could not be any purpose in the judge making a ruling that certain evidence should be heard in closed proceedings.
Having indicated, I hope, the context that we must look at, I find it extraordinary that it should be thought necessary for a judge, in this unusual situation when there is to be a closed hearing, to be told what he has to do to safeguard as far as possible the party which does not have access to the material. Any judge hearing these matters is going to find throughout the hearing that that is his primary responsibility. I would suggest that perhaps it is dangerous to be too specific in what he can do and what he must do because the whole of civil procedure has evolved so that a judge is put in charge of a case and he manages it in accordance with the overriding principle that is being relied on by those who wish to amend this legislation so as to achieve justice and fairness as far as possible. While I am very much in sympathy with all noble Lords who have supported these amendments, I question whether we are necessarily being constructive with regard to this issue.
What we have given as the justification for the closed procedure is that it will actually assist in achieving justice. In considering what justice is required, one must not look at the matter entirely from the point of view of one party alone. If the Government are the defendant in the proceedings, they have important responsibilities to put before the court to ensure that the rights of the citizen to be protected are not damaged inadvertently by what is proposed. We must remember that, in this very special area of national security other states are very sensitive that their material, which they regard as important for their purposes, should not come in to the public domain. It is in that situation that these procedures, as I understand them, are being proposed. As I have suggested, the judge would apply the ordinary principles with regard to weighing the material that he would apply in other proceedings, and also with regard to its admissibility. I look forward to hearing how the Advocate-General deals with the point that is now being taken with regard to the intercept evidence. That evidence is not normally admissible in proceedings, and it is not evidence that a judge can look at. I suggest that, if he were to hear it inadvertently, he would not be entitled to rely on it unless there was some reason that made it admissible.
Therefore, I hope that the Advocate-General will in due course explain why the normal rules, which I suggest must apply in so far as possible here, are not applicable also in the special circumstances of closed hearings.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I apologise if I was equivocal, but I thought that I had indicated that the issue revolves around the use of intercept evidence, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, mentioned when he quoted what I said. I rather thought that the quote he used was quite unequivocal, which caused the surprise.
My noble friend asked whether the purpose of the Bill was to make inadmissible material admissible to support the Government. It is worth indicating that the purpose behind the closed material provisions is to ensure that the court can consider as much relevant material as possible, be it helpful or unhelpful to the Government. The most obvious example is material that might otherwise be excluded by PII, but material that might otherwise be inadmissible because of RIPA provisions we seek to make admissible in these provisions.
The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, indicated that the Government had not considered intercept before in closed material proceedings. Section 18 of RIPA, as amended, has a long list of contexts, including any proceedings before SIAC. The most recent time when Parliament considered this matter was in paragraph 4(2) of Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011. Were the amendment to be incorporated into the Bill, a judge in a closed material proceeding could not consider relevant intercept material because the law prevents its disclosure in open hearings.
Paragraph 9 of Schedule 2 includes provision for an amendment to Section 18 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 to allow for intercept material to be admitted in any Section 6 proceedings. It is our view that the amendment is necessary if intercept material is to be adduced or disclosed in the closed part of any proceedings where the court has declared that a closed material application may be made. If Section 18 is not amended, the current prohibition on disclosure in Section 17 of RIPA will prevent intercept material being adduced within such proceedings. Consequently, it would narrow the scope of material available in the case and could undermine the wider purpose of CMPs, which is to make available as much material, helpful or unhelpful to the Government, as possible.
I have highlighted that a judge can consider intercept material in reviewing an application for a CMP or in proceedings where a declaration has been made. It is right and proper that this is the case, but I accept, and it is evident from the debate, that it is a matter that attracts views on different sides. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, referred to some of the history of the use of intercept evidence.
Some surprise was expressed in the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights in response to the Government’s Green Paper on justice and security. Paragraph 49 states:
“Since one of the driving forces behind the Green Paper is said to be the Government’s desire to ensure that, wherever possible, evidence is put before a court rather than excluded from its consideration, it does seem surprising that the admissibility of intercept as evidence is not included within the scope of the Green Paper”.
It goes on:
“We accept that the Green Paper is mainly concerned with civil proceedings, and the question of the admissibility of intercept as evidence has tended to focus on its use in criminal prosecutions. However, intercept is also relied on by the Government in a number of other contexts and we find it surprising that the Government is going to such trouble to make sure that evidence can go before a judge when material which sometimes forms a substantial part of the material relied on by the Government will still not be admissible under the proposals in the Green Paper. There is now a very long history of Reports, from this Committee and others, urging legislative reform to enable the admissibility of intercept. In our Report on the TPIMs Bill, we expressed concern about what appeared to be the significant decline in the number of successful prosecutions for terrorism offences over the last few years ... We reiterate our and our predecessor Committee’s recommendations that legislation to provide for the admissibility of intercept as evidence be brought forward as a matter of urgency”.
I accept that that goes wider than is specific to this Bill, but it indicated some surprise that, in the Green Paper at least, the Government had not flagged up the possible use of intercept, if indeed the intention is indeed to get as much relevant material before the court as possible. Therefore, the Government have made provision in the Bill for that to happen.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble and learned friend. I agreed to those paragraphs as part of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, and it is perfectly right to draw attention to them. That is why I support the use of intercept evidence in the context of this Bill. However, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, placed justifiable reliance on the fairness of judges and the overriding interest in the interests of justice in interpreting the Bill. Would my noble and learned friend accept that when we come at least to Report, we need to consider the safeguards?
This Bill restricts judicial discretion in certain ways. It does not leave it at large. It does not leave the overriding interest in natural justice, or the pursuit of justice, as a free-standing consideration that trumps everything. Therefore, will my noble and learned friend consider with an open mind—I am sure he will—questions such as AF disclosure to special advocates as one of the safeguards to try to do the best we can to secure equality of arms in this context?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, that perhaps goes wider than the specific issue of intercept evidence. However, I have of course indicated on a number of occasions a willingness to engage.
For completeness, my noble friend asked about the United States procedures. While they are similar in many respects, it is important to remind ourselves that the legal frameworks between the United States and the United Kingdom also differ. There are significant operational differences, so comparisons are of limited value, but it is certainly an issue on which I am willing to engage with my noble friend.
It is clear that there are different views on this and, in his memorandum to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, Mr David Anderson QC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, said:
“The major benefit of existing CMPs are that they allow the court or tribunal to decide the issues before them on the basis of all the evidence—including the intercept evidence that is otherwise not admissible in legal proceedings. If a CMP is to be introduced into civil proceedings, it should be on condition that section 18(1) of RIPA be amended so as to add civil litigation CMPs to the list of proceedings in which intercept evidence can be admitted”.
On the point made by my noble friend Lord Marks, I think there is a perception that this will always be in the interests of the Government. I accept the decision of Mr Justice Ouseley in the case of AHK, which I think related to naturalisation and so would come out separately under Clause 12 but under a judicial review. The Secretary of State might well, in a judicial review, come to a particular decision because she had access to material from intercept. If that evidence is not to be made available, and is to be withheld from the court that is considering a Secretary of State decision that is being judicially reviewed, justice might well not be done to the claimant.
The point is that other statutory CMPs can hear RIPA material—intercept evidence. Therefore, the exception to the rule would be if we did not allow this RIPA material to be held in civil proceedings, which could be to the detriment of claimants bringing cases against the Government. It is very clear that this is an issue that we will wish to consider.
On the point made by my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, I accept that there are important differences between criminal procedure and civil procedure. I am advised, too, by my noble friend Lord Henley that your Lordships will have another opportunity to explore this issue when he answers an Oral Question from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, tomorrow on the wider issues relating to intercept evidence.
There are evidential differences between criminal and civil proceedings, so the fact that intercept evidence may be used in closed material proceedings of a civil nature does not read across to criminal cases where the disclosure obligations on the prosecution to the defence are much stronger than the corresponding disclosure obligations in civil proceedings.
I have sought to address the specific points of procedure that were mentioned by my noble friend Lord Hodgson and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, as well as to deal with the issue of intercept evidence. I hope that, having heard these arguments, the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My name is also on this amendment. When I heard my noble and learned kinsman Lord Woolf indicate in his speech why we should trust the judges, I was reminded of what Archbishop William Temple once said:
“Whenever I travel on the Underground I always intend to buy a ticket, but the fact that there is a ticket collector at the other end just clinches it”.
However good our judiciary might be, it is important that the legislation should just clinch it.
The principle of open justice is a constitutional one anchored in our written and unwritten law and in the Human Rights Act both as regards the right to a fair and public hearing of civil and criminal proceedings protected by Article 6 of the convention, and the right to freedom of expression protected by Article 10. As my noble friend Lady Berridge has indicated, the principles were laid down most famously in Scott v Scott in 1913 when Lord Haldane, Lord Chancellor, referred to:
“the general principles as regards publicity which regulated the other courts of justice in this country”,
as being of “much public importance”.
“They lay down that the administration of justice must, so far as the trial of the case is concerned, with certain narrowly defined exceptions . . . be conducted in open court”.
Later Lord Haldane noted in the same case that the power of an ordinary court to hear in private cannot rest merely on the discretion of the judge. He said:
“If there is any exception to the broad principle that requires the administration of justice to take place in open court, that exception must be based on the application of some other and overriding principle which defines the field of exception and does not leave its limits to the individual discretion of the judge”.
The principle of open justice was reaffirmed by the English Court of Appeal, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, the Master of the Rolls, whose appointment as president of the Supreme Court I am sure we all greatly welcome. That Court of Appeal, as recently as 7 February 2012, was dealing with the successful appeal against the refusal by the district court to grant access to documents supplied to the court for the purpose of extradition to the United States of two individuals alleged to have been involved in bribing Nigerian officials by a subsidiary of the US company Halliburton. Lord Justice Toulson gave the leading judgment, in which he observed that the principle of open justice,
“has been recognised by the common law since the fall of the Stuart dynasty”.
After he quoted from Scott v Scott, he cited a New Zealand case, Broadcasting Corporation of New Zealand v the Attorney-General, in which the president, Sir Owen Woodhouse, another great and famous jurist, observed that,
“the principle of public access to the Courts is an essential element in our system. Nor are the reasons in the slightest degree difficult to find. The Judges speak and act on behalf of the community. They necessarily exercise great power in order to discharge heavy responsibilities. The fact that they do it under the eyes of their fellow citizens means that they must provide daily and public assurance that so far as they can manage it what they do is done efficiently if possible, with human understanding it may be hoped, but certainly by a fair and balanced application of the law to the facts as they really appear to be. Nor is it simply a matter of providing just answers for individual cases, important though that always will be. It is a matter as well of maintaining a system of justice which requires that the judiciary will be seen day by day attempting to grapple in the same even fashion with the whole generality of cases. To the extent that public confidence is then given in return so may the process be regarded as fulfilling its purposes”.
Lord Justice Toulson of course recognised that there are exceptions to the principle of open justice, but they must be justified by some even more important principle. In the Binyam Mohamed case, the Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, declared:
“Without the commitment of an independent media, the operation of the principle of open justice would be irremediably diminished”.
He recognised the special significance of the open justice principle in cases involving allegations of wrongdoing against the Executive.
As my noble friend Lady Berridge observed, the Joint Committee on Human Rights, in its report on the Green Paper, pointed out that the significant implications of the Government’s proposals for freedom of the media to report matters of public interest and concern did not feature at all. The committee regarded that as a “serious omission” and, at paragraph 217, called for the,
“human rights memorandum accompanying the Bill to include a thorough assessment of its impact on media freedom and on continuing public confidence in the administration of justice”.
When it came, the human rights memorandum contained just four brief paragraphs, paragraphs 32 to 35, asserting that the Bill is compatible with the freedom of the press because,
“in all cases where the test for closed proceedings is met it will be possible to justify the interferences with Article 10 rights as necessary and proportionate in the interests of national security”.
The Government’s response to our report provides even less comfort on that score. It states at page 15 that, in the Government’s view,
“the proposals will enhance transparency and public trust, not undermine it”,
and that,
“the media can be expected to have increased opportunities to report on substantive findings in cases that raise matters of significant public interest”,
because more relevant material will be put before the court to enable it to reach a decision in cases which currently cannot proceed. It is disappointing that there is nothing in the Bill so far to address the JCHR’s significant concerns about the impact upon media freedom and democratic accountability. As it stands, the Bill would undermine principles that have guided this country for centuries, threatening to violate open justice and free speech where they are most needed, especially in the context of cases involving allegations of wrongdoing by citizens against the executive.
I will not trouble the House with the convention case law that supports all of this, but I will say that to avoid arbitrary laws there are two fundamental requirements anchored in our legal system and in the convention. First, the law must be reasonably certain and foreseeable so as to be accessible to the citizen. Secondly, the law must provide adequate safeguards against abuse. The memorandum from the Government on the convention issues does not mention these vital safeguards of the rule of law and constitutional rights. The Bill as it stands would authorise the courts in future cases, without any prescribed and foreseeable criteria and safeguards, to operate a closed system of justice, shielded from public scrutiny. The virtue of Amendment 69ZA is that it requires rules of court to be made that would strike a fair balance between open justice, freedom of expression and national security, while satisfying the principles of common law and the convention.
Finally, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, have indicated, on the question about the publication of judgments in this area, the principle of legal certainty makes it absolutely essential that everybody should know the nature and scope of the relevant law. I remember in arguing the thalidomide case at Strasbourg many years ago that, because of the uncertainty of the law, we relied on the abuse by a Roman emperor who wrote the law on the top of very tall pillars, which prevented Roman citizens from being able to see it properly. That is an example in Roman law of the vice of legal uncertainty. A similar problem will arise if judgments given by the courts in cases of this kind remain altogether secret with no safeguards for them to be published when their secrecy is no longer necessary. I very much hope that those points will be addressed, whether in these amendments or others.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, we have previously debated amendments that would help to secure oversight of this system, if indeed this Bill survives the legislative process. Most, though not all, noble Lords who have spoken in the debates in Committee have expressed considerable reservations about the principle. Most have then spoken to amendments that would mitigate the effect of the principle if indeed it emerges in the final transition of the Bill to the statute book.
For my part, I concur very strongly with the views of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, regarding the establishment of a system for identifying the case law and the judgments and making them available, at some point at any rate, to inform the judicial process. That seems very important to me and certainly I lean towards amendments that ultimately would require the publication of reasons for a decision.
I am less attracted, however, by the first parts of the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, which would allow the media to intervene in proceedings. I am not quite certain of the form in which such intervention would take place, but in any event I am not at all persuaded thus far that this is something that would materially assist the process as opposed to simply promoting the interests of the media. It is difficult to see how that would work in practice, so we cannot support those elements of the amendment.
However, we look to the Government to respond constructively to the points made about the recording and availability of case law and the justification for particular decisions being made at a point when security interests are no longer as strong as when the closed material procedures, if indeed they exist, are implemented in a particular case. There ought at some point to be a disclosure. To that extent we sympathise with that part of the amendment, but in relation to its first parts we cannot really support what the noble Baroness is trying to do.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
I fully accept that Article 10(2) has exceptions and that the Bill falls within those exceptions. The problem is one of a lack of legal certainty. As my noble friend has indicated, the restrictions must be prescribed by law, and legal certainty therefore requires some accessibility. When courts think of making injunctions that affect freedom of speech, such as Spycatcher-type injunctions, they give notice to the press so that it can come along and explain why it thinks that the procedure or injunction is inappropriate. I perfectly understand, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said, that there is an objection to the press being present throughout the proceedings, but I have not so far heard any reason why the press cannot at least be informed. The press could come along on a Section 6 application and explain why it thinks that the procedure is appropriate when wrongdoing has been alleged. I do not understand, either, why there should be no mechanism to ensure that judgments that are secret should be published when they have lost their secrecy. Those are the kinds of issues that arise under Article 10.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I shall come on to the issue of redacted judgments in a moment. As to whether the press should be notified at the point of application for a CMP, it may well be informed, but it will not be informed if the issue is related to national security. That is the clear distinction between this kind of case and a PII case because, if the Secretary of State is making an application under CMP, she is doing so because she considers national security to be at risk.
The important points of principle for certainty are generally dealt with on the face of the open judgment. When that is published, the certainty that the noble Lord looks for will be provided. Sensitive details of the case may not be released but this does not mean all details will be placed in closed judgments. Judges are well accustomed to considering what material is published in a final judgment. At the moment the media and the public do not get this information. Instead, they are left with accusations that have not been investigated.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
As I understand it, in some instances the fact of the application will not be made public because that is also what happens now under PII. If the knowledge that the application has been made could give rise to concern about national security, it would not be made public, but that does not mean that all applications would be kept secret. If necessary, I will come back to clarify that point for the noble and learned Lord.
On the points covered in proposed new paragraphs (d) and (e), to which all noble Lords have referred, about closed judgments and the point at which they may no longer be considered classified or secret and could be made public, I refer noble Lords to the extended debate in Committee last week when my noble and learned friend made the following point:
“The Lord Chancellor's code of practice on the management of records, issued under Section 46 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, provides guidance on the management of records held by bodies subject to the Public Records Act 1958. Authorities are required to identify records worthy of permanent preservation and transfer them to the National Archives”.—[Official Report, 17/7/12; col. 209.]
However, we are considering this matter and will continue to do so between now and Report.
My noble friend Lady Berridge referred again to the database of closed judgments. I responded to her last week, I believe, that that issue is now in hand because of the useful contributions from the JCHR on this matter. She went on to ask whether it could go beyond the head notes to form cases. I do not have an answer for her at the moment but I will, of course, come back to her. As to the very specific points raised about the same issue by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I believe that I have already covered those in the remarks that I have just made.
In conclusion, we are discussing points of fundamental importance concerning freedom of the press and public trust in the justice system. I will come back to the noble and learned Lord on his point, but I hope that I have been able to demonstrate that the Bill will help to enhance transparency and public trust rather than undermine them, and in doing so we will reinforce the principles of open justice while protecting the UK’s national security.
I noticed the noble and learned Lord looking at me rather sceptically then. Before I sit down, I think that it is worth repeating that during this process only some material will be considered in closed proceedings. The material that will be in open proceedings will be accessible to the media, and there will be more than there is at this time. The arrangements being considered will ensure that the media will have access to the cases in a way that is consistent with their responsibility to report and to hold the Government to account, but, as I said at the start, they do not have a formal role in that process. Primarily what we are looking for in this Bill is that we are allowed to ensure that justice is done where it has not been seen to be done previously. That is an essential part of what we are trying to achieve. I hope that my noble friend feels able to withdraw her amendment.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
The Minister has referred twice to the vital principle that justice must be done, but on neither occasion has she added the usual part of that, which is that justice must be done and must manifestly be seen to be done. Between now and Report, could the Government reflect on the implications of having a procedure where even the fact of an application for closed proceedings under Clause 6 would be secret? I know of only one precedent for that kind of thing in this country. It was Defence Regulation 18B during the Second World War, which led to the infamous decision in Liversidge v Anderson. I cannot believe that such a conclusion is what the Government really intend.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, I share the concerns that have led to these amendments. The views of the Committee and the other place on whether the Bill contains an adequate balance between justice and security will depend on the scope of the Bill and on the scope of the concept of relevant civil proceedings. The wider the scope of the Bill, the less willing Parliament will inevitably be to approve Part 2; and the wider the scope the more willing Parliament must be to include amendments that provide safeguards in respect of the closed procedures.
Given that we are debating this Bill on the basis of the current scope that it contains, it seems fundamentally wrong in principle to give the Secretary of State a power thereafter to expand the Bill’s scope in a manner that when that proposal comes before Parliament will prevent us proposing any amendments that would introduce necessary safeguards that Parliament might think are required in the light of the expanded scope of the Bill.
With the Committee’s permission, I shall return—I have checked the facts—to a matter raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, in her response to the previous group of amendments. She told the Committee, as I understood her, and as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, understood her, that the Government may envisage that an application for a closed material procedure may be made in secret, without notification to anyone. My understanding, which I have confirmed, is that under the old control order procedure and the existing TPIM procedure, the application for a closed hearing is always made in public. Indeed, it has to be made publicly because the whole point of the special advocate procedure is that the special advocate before the closed procedure starts can talk to the litigants concerned and obtain information from them.
Furthermore, once a judgment is given, there is always an open judgment, which always refers to the closed judgment—if there is a closed judgment—without of course disclosing the confidential material that is in the closed judgment.
Like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, I would be very grateful if there could be clarification as soon as possible as to whether it is really the Government’s intention, in relation to the closed material procedure, that applications could be made in secret, entirely differently from how the control order and TPIM regime works.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, I have a couple of extra concerns to add to what has already been said. The first is political. As I understand it, this Bill has been introduced on the express understanding of both parts of the coalition that coroners’ inquests would be excluded. I see my noble and learned friend nodding in agreement to that. However, the power that is included here would enable a future Secretary of State to take that away, either during the coalition Government or when the coalition ends. That would be a breach of faith, and we should not now be legislating in a way that makes that possible. It seems to me to be a condition of this Bill that under no circumstances is it to apply to coroners’ inquests, for all the reasons that the Joint Committee and everyone else put forward.
My second problem is that these are civil proceedings, as we are constantly being reminded, so they affect the civil rights and obligations of the parties to those proceedings. When we were enacting the Equality Bills, the question frequently arose as to whether it would be fair and reasonable for a Government to take a power to amend the exceptions to that legislation, which is civil, in order to affect the rights and freedoms of the individual. In introducing both the Equality Act 2006 and 2010, the previous Government took powers to amend, but only by means of removing exceptions, not by anything that would affect the fundamental balance of civil proceedings.
What troubles me is that if this Bill goes through without adequate safeguards of the kind we are pressing for, the use of the powers conferred to amend—to add tribunals by delegated legislation—will not be able to add further safeguards; the question will only be whether a new, further tribunal may be added. That will fundamentally affect, anyhow, the rights and liabilities of the parties to that tribunal.
To take the example in the employment field referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, one can add a whole new set of restrictions that would apply, for example, to civil litigation in the employment field. That is not something that any previous Government would have contemplated. These powers are not simply Henry VIII in analogy, but maybe a later generation of kings under the Stuarts.
Lord Butler of Brockwell
My Lords, it is clear from this debate that two types of issue arise with this group of amendments. One is the issue of whether this is an appropriate use of delegated powers. The other could be described as an issue of policy: whether it is right for the Government to keep open the possibility of adding other types of proceedings, particularly inquests, to those to which the procedures in this Bill are available.
On the first matter of whether this is an appropriate use of delegated powers, as the noble Lords, Lord Soley and Lord Marks, said, we had a long and agonised debate on this in the Delegated Powers Committee. I do not need to add to what the noble Lords said; they summarised the case very well. The reluctance of the Delegated Powers Committee is evident from the words of the conclusion that it reached, where it said that,
“we are reluctant—albeit with considerable misgivings—to recommend in terms that the delegation of powers in clause 11 is inappropriate”.
In other words, the committee was not prepared to go as far as to say that this use of delegated powers was inappropriate, but it thought that this should be a matter for the opinion of the House, and it thought also that the House should consider whether some constraints and limitations should be put on that. I hope that is a matter that the Government will consider.
On the question of policy, as to whether it is right to retain a power to extend the range of proceedings to which the powers in the Bill would be appropriate, I deal directly with the sensitive issue of inquests and coroners’ courts, because that is where the shoe would be most inclined to rub. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, suggested that the Government have declared a policy of excluding inquests because this was the agreement on both sides of the coalition. My impression, I must say, is that this conclusion was reached with greater enthusiasm by one party to the coalition than the other. Indeed, I have heard on one or two occasions the Secretary of State for Justice being asked why this conclusion was reached and he has not been able to give a very convincing answer, other than that this was the way it came out in discussion.
It is difficult to see why the logic that the Government have applied for closed proceedings in other cases should not be available in inquests. The logic is rather similar. It is not often that I disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, and I entirely see her point that it would be very distressing for the public if the proceedings in an inquest could not be entirely in the open. However, again the question arises: is it more disturbing to the public that some proceedings should not be open, or that there is some material relevant to the conclusion of the inquest that is not brought to bear at all? This is the issue that arises with the rest of the Bill. It is quite difficult to see why the Government have reached this conclusion in one case and an opposite conclusion in the other.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, has great experience of ordinary majority Governments but none at all of coalition Governments. Will he accept that we are now in a different world from that which he ever experienced, and that when you have coalition Government, and the two parties to the coalition reach an agreement, if the coalition is to survive and prosper, that agreement must be followed, however difficult for one party or the other?
Lord Butler of Brockwell
My Lords, I am not denying for a moment that this is a conclusion of the coalition. It clearly is. I am just asking whether it is a very logical conclusion.
This is a serious point. There are, I believe, 30 inquests waiting to happen in Northern Ireland, which still have to be undertaken. It is difficult to foresee all the circumstances that might arise. We have got to allow for the possibility that there might be proceedings—inquests, but also perhaps other proceedings—where we would wish, the Government would wish, and perhaps the public would wish, that it would be better that secret information was taken into account than it was not taken into account at all.
For that reason, and with the same reluctance that the Delegated Powers Committee had, I come down, on balance, on keeping these provisions in the Bill. The Government have said they not going to use them, but I think it would be wise to keep the provisions in the Bill, in case circumstances arise in which we would regret their absence.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
Does the noble Lord accept that there is no monopoly of knowledge about national security? I served a Home Secretary long before the noble Lord and we fashioned the first anti-terrorist legislation in 1974. Would he accept that one of the worst things we can do is to fashion legislation in this country that gives colour to the idea that British justice is second-rate or discriminatory in balancing national security and liberty?
Lord Reid of Cardowan
On the noble Lord’s first point, I not only accept that but I recognised in my opening remarks that people here other than me had discharged that responsibility. I agree entirely with his second point. At heart, the struggle—not the only struggle but the major one—is a battle of values. It is an ideological battle. Certainly, it displays itself in acts of terrorism, bombs or death but at heart it is a clash of values. Therefore, everything we do has to be seen in that context. There is a propaganda weapon for those who oppose the very essence of our values if we conduct our affairs so that there is an obvious contradiction between the values we espouse and what we do. However, that has to sit alongside the fact that, on some occasions, these values have to be defended as a whole. That has meant that we have had to take abnormal measures on occasions. The key thing is accepting that they are abnormal and extraordinary, rather than trying to pretend that somehow they are just run of the mill or justifying them on the existing system. The second thing is to make the argument about why they are necessary. If one fails to make this argument, one will end up in the position indicated by the noble Lord, where what one does appears to contradict what one says.
“( ) Section (Statutory PII for national security sensitive material) applies in disclosure proceedings to which this section applies.”
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, in moving the amendment, I have to speak to the other 14 amendments which have been grouped, which are all to do with the Norwich Pharmacal principle. That does not include Amendments 76 or 80. The amendments are designed to include the scheme created by the Bill for what is known as Norwich Pharmacal applications in national security cases. A Norwich Pharmacal application is made for disclosure of documents or information where five conditions are met. These are as follows. First, the claimant has to show that he has an arguable case in the main litigation. Secondly, the defendant has to be involved in or mixed up—whether innocently or otherwise—with the underlying claim. Thirdly, the Norwich Pharmacal jurisdiction is the remedy of last resort, so the claimant must show that he or she has no other way to obtain information. Fourthly, the court will order only such limited disclosure as is shown to be necessary. Fifthly and ultimately, the court must be satisfied, having taken into account each of those factors that the information should be disclosed in the public interest.
The Norwich Pharmacal procedure is a common law procedure devised by the great Scottish Law Lords, Lord Reid and Lord Kilbrandon, with three English Members of the House of Lords. I mentioned that because one of the Government’s less good ideas is that it does not apply in Scotland. I have little doubt that if a case arose, it would apply in Scotland. I placed in the Library my research into Norwich Pharmacal worldwide, and it is applied throughout the common law world and, in a slightly different form, in the United States.
This will test whether I would be any good as a diplomat. The United States is a key ally. It is essential that our security services and theirs should be able to co-operate fully on the basis of mutual trust and understanding. I entirely understand, as did the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the need to give full reassurance to our allies across the Atlantic that the British justice system fully protects national security in all relevant contexts.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, the noble and learned Lord has expressed his opinion so clearly that I find it very difficult to ask him a question. The burden of what he is saying is that he thinks that the solution is an absolute ouster clause—something that makes the Minister’s certificate conclusive in all circumstances. My understanding is that that is not the position under the law of the United States. Even with its State Secrets Protection Act and its Patriot Act, it does not go that far.
The evidence in the Binyam Mohamed case that was given by Mr Morton Halperin was that intelligence services in both countries recognised that there are some rule-of-law exceptions. What troubles me is that there are cases now pending in the European Court of Human Rights with names such as al-Nashiri, I think, where the court is requiring States parties to disclose information where there are allegations of rendition and torture. Will the noble and learned Lord at least accept that the Bill could limit the power of the Secretary of State to certify so as to exclude the grossest cases of human rights violations so that it is not completely absent, that being an obligation on the Secretary of State that might or might not be traditionally reviewable?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton
There are two points. First, I am seeking to say what the dilemma is for the House. It is necessary for the House first to come to a conclusion about whether there is a difficulty in relation to the flow of information. If it comes to the same conclusion as the Joint Committee on Human Rights came to, based on Mr Anderson’s evidence, the question is: what is the right solution? I think that everyone around the House agrees that it should be proportionate.
On the specific questions, I am not in favour of a complete ouster and, as I understand it, neither are the Government, because they are saying that any certificate given by the Secretary of State is subject to judicial review, so it would not be an ouster of a sort that other Ministers tried on previous occasions. This would leave in the ability to say, “Could a reasonable Minister have given such a certificate?”. There are two bits to that. The approach of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, is to cut out of the approach that is being suggested anything that might make an allegation of human rights abuse. I can see the attraction of that, but the consequence is probably that Norwich Pharmacal is left untouched, and you have the problem of less intelligence coming. I do not want to sound too dramatic but the indications from the intelligence services, which I do not question in any way, tend to be that that might have a significant effect on the Executive’s ability to protect more individuals. I can see the former head of one of the intelligence services behind me correcting me on this, but it is quite a significant part of the ability to protect ourselves.
If one took the route of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams—if I may call it that—that would avoid giving any protection at all. The route of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, is, “Take the approach that is being suggested. Have the ability to certify. Limit it to the control principle. Cut out everything else. Make it judicially reviewable but accept that there are occasions when there will be gross breaches”. I think he is suggesting in his Amendment 85 that it is something more than a judicial review balance, something else apart from judicial review, because it says in effect that the principles of judicial review will apply to considering where the public interest lies, including considering whether there have been gross breaches of international law. That is not quite the wording but that is what it amounts to. That still seems to me like judicial review, so it is for the Minister to decide whether there is a basis for concluding that it might affect the control principle. If he comes to that conclusion, the certificate is not attackable. That appears to be what is being proposed.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
Yes, the court would see it. If I have got that wrong, I will certainly say so; but I think that that is the whole point of having closed material proceedings. The material can be made available to the court so that the whole picture can be obtained. The Secretary of State retains the option not to put the material into the public domain, although consequences may flow from that.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, I hope that I will not be criticised for seeking easy popularity in this House by saying that I am going to make a very short reply. I regard the dinner hour as something that should happen at the customary time for dinner, and not breakfast. I am conscious that my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford and his colleagues have another very important debate to come.
I shall simply say this. First, I am extremely grateful for what has been a most important debate. I am particularly grateful to the Minister for his very full reply, so full and so interesting that I think studying it carefully will be very beneficial. I am a bit more pessimistic than he is, and perhaps more so than the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, about the ability to keep the courts away when there are cases of indirect, and not direct, responsibility. There are knotty and difficult questions about the Human Rights Act, the European Convention, extra-territoriality, jurisdiction and so on. I am not yet persuaded that the certification procedure, perhaps extended beyond these amendments, is not the better approach, with limited judicial review. That is something we will need to consider. However, I am grateful to everybody. I agree in particular with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, that we should seek the minimum necessary to give reasonable and complete assurance.
Finally, I want to say to my noble friend Lady Williams of Crosby that most of what I have learnt about the law was in the United States in the early sixties. It is not really true that the United States has not been a friend of international human rights. On the contrary, whether we start with Nuremburg, the UN International Covenant, the International Criminal Court, or in other ways, the United States has been championing international human rights. The only snag is that it will not apply them in the United States itself in the way that we do. Nevertheless, I learnt most of my international human rights law there and not here. I hope that what I have said may one day be read by the legal adviser to the Department of State, my good friend Harold Hongju Koh, who will understand that I respect its system very much indeed. I also agree with all of those who say that we must find a way of winning its unqualified support in sharing national security information. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.