Army Foundation College: Welfare Inspection Regime

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Thursday 11th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Yes, I can provide that reassurance to the noble Baroness. That is a very pertinent question. A junior soldier can now report crime via a multitude of platforms. It need not be within the chain of command; it can be via the Service Police Crime Bureau, via a confidential crime line, directly to the service police or the Defence Serious Crime Unit, or indeed directly to the civilian police.

In relation to behaviours that may not constitute criminal activity but cause concern and give rise to a complaint, I can reassure the noble Baroness that junior soldiers are encouraged early and frequently to report any concerns that they have. The commanding officer speaks to them about zero tolerance on their first day of training, so that is done immediately. The commanding officer also holds a confidence-in-reporting discussion with all female junior soldiers in week one, committing to take all allegations seriously and encouraging them to speak up should they need to do so, and there are mechanisms for the junior soldiers to deploy to do that. That perhaps underpins the finding by Ofsted that I quoted earlier.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I seem to recall that at some point in Grand Committee, probably in the midst of Covid, the Minister undertook to arrange a visit for the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and me to visit the college. I was wondering whether that could be instituted, and perhaps we could take the noble Lord, Lord Browne, with us. My question is: does the Minister believe that she could say to parents of 15 and 16 year-olds, hand on heart, “Yes, your children can safely apply; they will be in good hands if they go to Harrogate now”, after the changes that have been made?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Yes, I can comfortably give the noble Baroness that assurance. I have seen at first hand the variety of mechanisms now available to the young soldiers in order to voice any concerns. It has been recognised not just by Ofsted but by the independent advisory panel that there is a very open and transparent atmosphere, which is reflected in the comments from the young soldiers themselves.

I remember the undertaking that I gave and I am delighted to repeat it. In fact, I mentioned it just this morning to the commanding officer at Harrogate, and I can tell the noble Baroness that she, the noble Lords, Lord Coaker and Lord Browne, and any other noble Lords who care to tag along would be very welcome to visit Harrogate. I think they would all find it a stimulating and extremely positive experience.

Warrior Capability Sustainment Programme

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lord, the Minister has said the MoD has a new model of getting things when we need them. Have we had Ajax when we needed it? Does the forward set of dates not suggest we are not really getting things when we need them?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I actually said that the department is aware of the need to look at the opportunity of a different approach to procurement, and there may be situations where there is something on the shelf that would work, would be adequate and can be obtained at a reasonable price. That is certainly an opportunity of which the department is aware, and about which it will be vigilant. On procurement generally, I have said before that defence procurement is probably the most complex in government, and that is why, through last year’s Defence and Security Industrial Strategy, we are working to improve the speed of acquisition and ensure we incentivise innovation and productivity.

Ukraine

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I reassure my noble friend and the House that it will continue. We have an ambition to train up to 20,000 Ukraine armed forces personnel this year, and I am able to inform the House that, as of 2 May, we have already trained more than 5,000.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, His Majesty’s Government’s commitment to Ukraine is very welcome, but in the past few weeks we have had additional commitments in Sudan. Can the Minister reassure the House that the MoD has the resources to enable us to work in both countries? One common link is the Wagner Group. What assessment have the Government made of finally proscribing that group?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for raising an important point. We have resources and assets to cover those contingency demands on our personnel. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to what I thought was, once again, the impressive professionalism and commitment of our Armed Forces personnel in effecting a safe evacuation of British nationals, and indeed other personnel, from Sudan.

I think we all in this House agree that the Wagner Group is an odious organisation. We do not comment regularly on whether we are going to proscribe an organisation or designate it a transnational criminal organisation—these are matters we keep within our confidence—but I can say that we have taken action. The UK has now sanctioned more than 1,500 individuals and more than 120 entities in response to Putin’s war in Ukraine. This includes the Wagner Group, Yevgeny Prigozhin and his family, and Dmitry Utkin. We are taking action against the group.

Top Secret Document Leaks

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Thursday 20th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I think the most uncomfortable security breach for the MoD was in 2021, when papers were left at a bus stop. Following that event, the Secretary of State sent a metaphorical dose of syrup of figs through the department. That involved re-education and retraining, with an online security test to be sat, in which Ministers had to participate—I shall not share the results with the Chamber but it was a very pertinent wake-up call—and random bag searches were introduced in the main building for people accessing and leaving the department. I would also say to my noble friend that a risk assessment/risk evaluation exercise, introduced before the security leak in the United States of America, is currently ongoing, and that will be an important contributor to how we can improve further.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, in the other place Dan Jarvis asked the Minister whether he was able to give assurances that data on our Armed Forces held by private sector contractors was fully secured. The Minister said that he assumed so but would go away, find out and write to Mr Jarvis. Can the Minister inform this House whether there is yet an answer to the question? If such data is not securely held, what work will the MoD be doing to ensure that security is improved?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I do not have the response which my right honourable colleague promised in the other place, but I undertake to ensure that a copy is forwarded to the noble Baroness whatever that response is. Our private contractors operate under a very strict regime, not just in terms of vetting the people they have who have access to sensitive material, but also, in terms of undertakings, those individuals must comply with the Official Secrets Act and with the rules, protocols and all the security practices which we expect. There have been instances where these have been breached and prosecutions have ensued. Therefore measures are in place, but I will make the further detail promised by my right honourable friend in the other place available to the noble Baroness.

Service Police (Complaints etc.) Regulations 2023

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Wednesday 19th April 2023 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, this statutory instrument contains the regulations required to establish the service police complaints system, which will be overseen by the newly appointed Service Police Complaints Commissioner. It also contains the regulations required to establish the super-complaints regime for the service police. These regulations, along with the establishment of the independent commissioner, will implement in full recommendation 44 of the service justice system review, carried out by His Honour Judge Shaun Lyons and supported by the former chief constable, Sir Jon Murphy.

The regulations are quite technical, complex and surprisingly bulky; they run to some 80-plus pages. As they largely mirror the legislation already in place for the Independent Office for Police Conduct—the IOPC—and the civilian police, I do not intend to go through each of the regulations in turn, which I am sure is a matter of huge relief to your Lordships. Instead, I will briefly set out what His Honour Judge Lyons said in relation to establishing independent oversight and how this helped to inform the approach taken by the MoD.

The Lyons review found that in the service police a degree of independent oversight was missing in comparison with civilian police forces, which have statutory complaints systems. His Honour Judge Lyons recommended that a new niche defence body be created to deliver this. The review suggested a small niche unit led by an appointed individual, possibly from a judicial background, operating to the same remit as the IOPC and its director-general.

Section 365BA of the Armed Forces Act 2006, as amended by the 2021 Act, established a new officeholder, the Service Police Complaints Commissioner. Last year, the MoD ran a recruitment campaign, in accordance with the 2016 public appointments governance code, for the post of commissioner. Ms Margaret Obi, a deputy High Court judge assigned to the King’s Bench Division, was appointed as the new commissioner by His Majesty the King on the recommendation of the Secretary of State. This was announced on 20 February 2023, and she began her work in February.

In line with Recommendation 44, the commissioner will have functions similar to those conferred on the director-general of the IOPC. The five main responsibilities of the commissioner will be: to secure the confidence of persons subject to service law and service discipline, as well as the wider public, in the service police complaints system; to secure, maintain and review arrangements in respect of the procedures that deal with complaints, conduct matters and death and serious injury matters; to make recommendations and provide advice in relation to those arrangements—for example, training or procedures —where the commissioner believes this may improve policing practice; to act as the review body for certain cases, specified in the regulations; and, finally, to report annually to Parliament via the Secretary of State for Defence on the delivery of the commissioner’s functions.

I would like to set out in a little more detail the responsibilities of the commissioner for deciding how the more serious complaints and other matters are to be investigated, if it is determined that an investigation is required. There are certain matters that must be referred to the commissioner, which are set out in the regulations. Where a referral has been made, the commissioner will first need to determine if there needs to be an investigation. If no investigation is required, the complaint can be referred back to the appropriate authority—in the majority of cases this would be an individual in the service police force—to be handled in a reasonable and proportionate way. If it is determined that an investigation is needed, the commissioner will have to decide on the type of investigation based on the seriousness of the case and what is in the public interest.

The different options for investigation are identical to the civilian system. They are: a local investigation where the service police force does the investigation itself; a directed investigation, where a member of a service police force is appointed as the investigator but the investigation is under the direction of the commissioner; and an independent investigation, where the commissioner carries out an investigation personally or can designate an investigator to carry it out.

In the case of the independent investigations—that is, investigations that are independent of the service police and the MoD—there will be a pool of experienced investigators, with appropriate skills, who can be called on as necessary, and they will have the relevant niche skills for particular cases. Investigators will be able to exercise service police powers in a similar way to investigators appointed by the director-general of the IOPC, who can also exercise police powers.

The Lyons review, interestingly, recognised that there would probably be very few independent investigations required. Our own analysis, based on service police data between 2018 and 2022, indicates that there could be an average of 62 formal complaints annually, with 18 cases meeting the mandatory criteria for referrals. However, it is important to note that not all referrals would lead to an independent investigation. By way of comparison, over 36,000 formal complaints were recorded in the year 2020-21 by civilian police forces across England and Wales.

As well as complaints, the new system will also cover conduct matters and death or serious injury matters, referred to as DSI matters. In lay man’s terms, these are cases where no complaint has been made but misconduct is suspected, or a death or serious injury has occurred after contact with the service police. Service police forces will be required to ensure that they have processes in place to identify and refer conduct matters and DSI matters without delay. Again, we expect only a small number of conduct matters to be referred to the commissioner that will require investigation, and DSI matters are even more rare. Between 2018 and 2022, there were no DSI-type matters recorded. Although we expect relatively few independent investigations, an effective independent service police complaints system is still vital. Your Lordships will appreciate that the way in which complaints, conduct matters and DSI matters are dealt with has a huge impact on confidence in the service police and in the complaints system.

Finally, I say just a few words on the super-complaints system, which has been included as part of this statutory instrument. The civilian police super-complaints system, on which the service police super-complaints system is based, was established to address concerns about whether the police complaints system was able to identify systemic failures in policing. It is important to note that super-complaints are not an alternative way to raise an individual complaint; rather, super-complaints are intended to raise issues or concerns on behalf of the public about harmful patterns or trends in policing by the service police which are, or appear to be, significantly harming the interests of the public.

Only a body designated by the Secretary of State can make a super-complaint. To do that, the organisation must become a designated body. That organisation must demonstrate that it meets all the criteria set out in regulations. For example, it must be able to demonstrate that it is competent in, and has considerable experience of, representing the interests of the public. Prior to the regulations coming into force, the MoD will run a six-week application window for organisations wishing to become designated bodies under the service police super-complaints system.

The statutory instrument before us today is a key element of the wider MoD programme of work to deliver improvements to the service justice system. An independent service police complaints system will help to secure and maintain confidence in the service police, it will help to drive up standards in policing and it will certainly help to ensure accountability at both an individual and force level. I beg to move.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing the statutory instrument. As she pointed out, it is surprisingly weighty. I had expected the standard one-and-a-half page statutory instrument of the sort where we come to praise His Majesty’s Armed Forces and all nod in agreement, but then I picked up this document and thought, even more than ever, “Why is my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford not taking this?”, because I am used, on matters of service justice, to handing over to him, and he knows far more about the work of His Honour Judge Lyons than I do, so I will have to take on trust what the Minister said about this very much replicating what happens in police justice. However, I have a few specific questions, one of which was touched on in the Minister’s overview of super-complaints. I have a couple of points, in part to demonstrate that I have read the document—or at least as much of it as I could make sense of.

Regulation 10 concerns the issue of former members of the service police force. Do any time limits apply to cases being brought against former members of the force? The reason I ask that is because, over the years, when we have debated the overseas operations Bill or, indeed, the Northern Ireland legacy Bill, there have been questions about whether there should be time limits on cases being brought. I am also double-checking that resignation will not be a way out of getting out of any investigation.

Regulation 12 refers to “exceptional circumstances”. Is there a definition of what might constitute an exceptional circumstance?

Regulation 19 is on withdrawal of complaints. This may not apply in cases that might be brought against service police, but is there a danger of frivolous or vexatious cases being brought and the withdrawal of a complaint being potentially vexatious? If so, what might be done about that?

Ukraine: Arms Supplies

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Wednesday 19th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I am aware that my noble friend has raised this on previous occasions. He understands that it is not really within the MoD’s bailiwick; it is more a matter for my Treasury colleagues. I suggest that my noble friend refers to them for a response.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, can I press the Minister further on the initial Question from the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, about not just conversations with industry but procurement? The Minister implied that the Government have been talking to industry, which is fine, but can she confirm that orders have been placed so that adequate capabilities are available both to the UK and in whatever we are supplying to Ukraine?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Orders have certainly been placed by the UK. I do not have specific information in front of me but I shall inquire and will submit whatever detail I can to the noble Baroness.

Ukraine

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, it is commonplace to thank whoever has initiated the debate and very often to thank all the speakers for a wide-ranging debate. On this occasion, we certainly must thank the usual channels and the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, for moving this debate today. Two weeks ago, when the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, had his debate on defence, there were calls from both sides of the House for a debate on Ukraine. Nobody could have predicted quite how timely the debate would be. Waking up yesterday morning and hearing on the news that President Zelensky was going to be in Parliament, in person, was quite extraordinary.

It has been a wide-ranging debate but, as the noble Lord, Lord McDonald, said, those people who might be watching from the Russian embassy are really looking for divisions. In his opening words, my noble friend Lord Purvis of Tweed pointed out that the Liberal Democrats are in lockstep with His Majesty’s Government and the Official Opposition. When speaking on defence matters, it often feels that the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and I are simply rehearsing the same lines, precisely because, on so many defence issues, we are all singing from broadly the same hymn sheet. We are committed to His Majesty’s Armed Forces and we acknowledge the debt that we all owe them. In the case of the conflict in Ukraine, we particularly acknowledge the training that is going on to support Ukraine and its valiant servicepeople.

So my first point is on the importance of support from all political parties of the United Kingdom. It was notable that the Conservative Benches picked up on the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, about a green Marshall plan. There is a great deal of unanimity across the Chamber. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, was a lone voice. It came from a genuine place, but most Benches do not really agree.

This important debate is about Ukraine, but also about much wider issues of European security, as was pointed out by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones. As the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, stated, essentially the frontiers of British security are no longer the white cliffs of Dover or even Germany; we are looking to the blood and mud of the Donbas.

This debate is about the effects on the United Kingdom and our security, and it fundamentally matters for a reason that was pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Hannan of Kingsclere. Ukraine is not just a country in the middle of Europe to which we have no obligations. It is not a NATO member nor a member of the European Union, but we agreed the Budapest memorandum and to support the security of Ukraine. It is vital that we do so. As the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, reminded us, one of the things that has been so clear over the last 351 days is the commitment and resilience of the Ukrainian President and the people of Ukraine. To stand up against Vladimir Putin’s illegal invasion for almost a year, to keep fighting and to keep coming to remind the West of the importance of supporting Ukraine is incredible.

But we have to be honest. President Zelensky has not managed to persuade all the West or all the free world of the importance of standing up for Ukraine against Russia. The noble Lord, Lord McDonald, pointed out that very few people in the United Nations voted to support Russia. That is true, but there have been numerous abstentions or countries that simply were not present to vote. That is significant and we are talking about very influential countries that are listening not just to Ukraine, the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth, but to Russia. They include, as my noble friend Lord Purvis pointed out, South Africa, India and other Commonwealth countries.

One question I have for the Minister to answer in his winding-up speech is on the conversations His Majesty’s Government are having, with our Commonwealth partners in particular, to explain the importance to freedom and democracy globally of supporting Ukraine. We need to make absolutely clear that this is not about some sort of neocolonial western support for Ukraine; it is about the rule of law and democracy.

So, what conversations are being had? I did wonder if the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, with his extensive contacts with South Africa and India, might also be working with His Majesty’s Government to see how persuasive we can be. As other noble Lords have pointed out, the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, has been very persuasive—not in the Chamber today but elsewhere —in explaining how the message that we all understand implicitly in your Lordships’ House has not necessarily reached the hearts and minds of many people. That is partly because of the Russian disinformation machine—and that goes to discussions maybe in southern Africa or in India, but also other countries in eastern Europe. We like to think that the EU, NATO and the United Kingdom are speaking absolutely as one on the issue of Ukraine, and broadly speaking they are, but some of the disinformation going into eastern Europe is being propagated by Russia. It is not supportive of Ukraine, for very obvious reasons, so there is a whole campaign that we need to wage not just to persuade Vladimir Putin that public opinion in Russia is changing—although if the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, is right, that would be a very welcome way forward—but for hearts and minds generally.

We also need to think about expectations in the United Kingdom. This time last year, when we had the debate after the invasion, I remember suggesting that if we had sanctions, as we now do, we needed to be very explicit to citizens of the United Kingdom about the economic consequences we would all have to face. Those sanctions might be against Russian oligarchs—here, I agree with my noble friend Lady Brinton—but they should also hit all Russian assets.

But the consequences of sanctions have domestic implications as well, and I am minded to reinforce that point looking at today’s newspaper headlines. The headlines are all about yesterday’s visit from President Zelensky, and his message could not have been clearer: “wings for freedom”—give us fighter jets, not just help with training. The Daily Express and the Daily Mail, on their front pages, are not saying that President Zelensky says this; they are saying, send fighter jets to Ukraine. Are His Majesty’s Government in a position to do that? If they feel they are able or could be in a position to send fighter jets in addition to tanks, there will be consequences for our own defence budgets.

At the start of today’s debate, the noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked what contracts have been signed to ensure that we have the equipment we need, as we are supplying Ukraine. I would reinforce that question with the question I raised, along with others, on Monday with the noble Lord, Lord Harlech—the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, passed it on to the noble Lord—about F35s. There are questions about British defence capabilities. From these Benches, we absolutely support the considered approach taken by His Majesty’s Government, in particular the nuanced approach of Ben Wallace, the Secretary of State for Defence. But if we are going to give further support to Ukraine, we also need to make sure that our defence budget can manage that. Capabilities matter.

Finally, I support the comments of my noble friends Lord Campbell of Pittenweem and Lord Purvis of Tweed in discussing questions of accountability, the questions that will be raised at The Hague and what support His Majesty’s Government are going to give to ensure that there can be a tribunal to bring to account Vladimir Putin, his forces and anyone else who has been perpetrating war crimes of the hideous sort we have heard about—rape, the abduction of children and the targeting of civilians in Ukraine. Those are all things we need to be thinking about in the longer term, but we need His Majesty’s Government to be clear about the strategic approach in 2023 and moving forward.

Integrated Review: Update

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My noble friend will have heard me say to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, that neither I nor my ministerial colleagues deny that a challenge has confronted our land capability—a challenge spread over many years and created under successive Governments. We are cognisant of that and are doing what we can within the MoD to address it.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, following a theme that has been echoing around the Chamber, will the Minister say what assessment the MoD and His Majesty’s Government have made of the fact that the IMF is predicting a recession in the United Kingdom? Given the nature of inflation and the unpredictability of the exchange rate, what impact is there likely to be on defence capabilities? In the light of all those things, is it not time to move beyond percentages of GDP as targets for defence expenditure and towards a real focus on actual capability and what the UK can deliver?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Baroness will be aware that a percentage of GDP is the model that has been adopted increasingly by other states in consequence of the approach that the United Kingdom has taken to defence expenditure. In relation to current expenditure, the noble Baroness is right that we face challenges of inflation and fluctuating currency, but we have been able to make greater use of index-linked fixed price contracts, and we use pricing mechanisms where inflation risk sits with suppliers. Indeed, that has prevented higher prices being passed on. We also have forward purchasing of fuels, utilities and foreign exchange—all of which mitigates the corrosive impact of inflationary pressures.

Armed Forces: Resilience

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I was expecting not to need to declare any interests this afternoon. Unlike most noble Lords who have participated, but like the noble Lord, Lord Empey, I have not served in the military. I have been part of the Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme and am now a trustee of the Armed Forces Parliamentary Trust, which serves to enhance understanding of the military among MPs and Peers who perhaps need a better understanding of His Majesty’s Armed Forces, precisely for the reason that the security of the state is the first duty of government.

My noble friend Lord Alton has made me think that perhaps I need to declare an interest—and almost an apology—because one of the 44 universities named as having an interest in China is my University of Cambridge. I have no direct links with China and I do not believe my department does. I certainly have no role in espionage or anything else.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

A likely tale.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

I will move on, having declared the interest of being at Cambridge University.

Like all noble Lords right across the House, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, for bringing this important debate. As we so often say, Members of your Lordships’ House from all Benches support our Armed Forces and wish to give them as much support as possible and to ensure that our decision-making and our funding for HM Armed Forces ensures that this country is safe and that our Armed Forces personnel are given all the support and finances needed to enable them to do their jobs and to enhance recruitment, retention and resilience.

In preparation for today’s debate, I went back to Command Paper 411, Defence in a Competitive Age. It was written in a very different age. It is only two years old—March 2021—yet even then the situation in which the Secretary of State, Ben Wallace, was writing seemed to be one of relative peace. Russia and China were both listed as potential threats, as were Iran and North Korea, but we were not expecting war in Europe or the rather ignominious withdrawal from Afghanistan —the successful Op Pitting but the humanitarian disaster we have been left with.

Almost two years after this defence paper, and in light of the further revisions of the integrated review, my first question to the Minister is: does she believe that His Majesty’s Treasury—and indeed the Prime Minister, a former Chancellor of the Exchequer—understands the importance of the defence budget? It might be laudable to commit 2% or 3% of GDP but, in the face of a shrinking economy, high inflation and a poor exchange rate to the dollar, are we really increasing our defence expenditure and ensuring our resilience?

These are questions that have been raised time and again. The noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, went back to Hansard to look at his own contributions and said that he has asked the same questions again and again. That is true of many questions that I have put to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, when he was Minister of State at Defence, and the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie. Are we actually putting enough financial resource into the Armed Forces?

I touched on Afghanistan. I was not aware of the involvement of the noble Lord, Lord Hintze, in helping women to get out of Afghanistan, although I was aware that the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, had done a fantastic job of supporting those women, so I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for mentioning that. I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Hintze, to his place. Following his excellent maiden speech, I very much look forward to his further contributions to your Lordships’ House. It is so good to hear from someone who has military experience, as the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, pointed out, so he is most welcome.

The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Peach, has also made his maiden speech. It is conventional to talk about people making excellent maiden speeches and say what a wonderful contribution they are going to make, but the extraordinary thing about the noble and gallant Lord’s maiden speech today was that it almost was not a maiden speech; it fitted so perfectly into the flow of the debate that, if we had not had the word “maiden” on the speakers’ list, we would not have remembered that it was a maiden speech. It was clear, excellent and important, and we are delighted to have further expertise on defence in your Lordships’ House.

In his foreword to the Command Paper, the Secretary of State raised criticisms about previous defence reviews. He suggests that they were overly ambitious and underfunded. In the light of the debate that we have heard today, and of the commitments that the UK is seeking to make globally as part of global Britain, does the Minister believe that the current integrated review is not also in danger of being overly ambitious and underfunded? Do we have sufficient resilience?

The Secretary of State made a lot of important points but in the context of a world that was very different—with a different Prime Minister, with a different set of priorities, before the war in Ukraine, before the impact of that war on the British and global economies, and before the energy crisis. We are in a very different situation now. The notes that I made before I heard this debate have merely been reinforced by it, so my questions to the Minister reinforce those questions about the replenishment of equipment.

The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, quoted my noble friend Lord Campbell of Pittenweem, when he said last week that the House deserves credible evidence on the replenishment of armaments and discussions with industry. We heard from the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, about the chaos—he did not use the word “chaos” but I think it might be a useful one—of MoD procurement. Although this is repetition beyond repetition, could the Minister tell the House, without breaching any commercial confidentiality, what discussions are being held with the defence industrial base to ensure that the UK’s own domestic security is not being jeopardised by the support that we are giving to Ukraine? We stand united behind the Government in supporting Ukraine and giving it as much support as it needs, including tanks and artillery, but we also need to be reassured that, almost a year into the war in Ukraine, the Government have fully understood the significance of replenishment. We in your Lordships’ House have not yet been reassured that supplies are going to be adequate, and the statement by the Chief of the Defence Staff did not really leave anyone feeling very reassured. Could the Minister comment on that?

Finally, I will devote my last couple of minutes to our Armed Forces personnel. The Command Paper rightly points out that

“Our people, from all four corners of the UK, the Commonwealth and beyond, are our most important resource”.


That is absolutely right and it was reiterated by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Peach, in his maiden speech, and by the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, who also pointed out the situation of veterans.

My friend in the other place, the MP for Tiverton and Honiton, Richard Foord MP, has been looking into that situation and ascertained, from a Written Question to the Minister in the Commons, that up to 200,000 veterans are at risk of homelessness over this winter. What is the MoD doing to support veterans and does the Minister feel that the Armed Forces covenant, which was enshrined into the Armed Forces Act 2021, is doing enough? Would His Majesty’s Government be willing to look at whether empty forces accommodation could be made available, even on a temporary basis, for veterans at risk from homelessness? While I am at it, can the Minister tell the House what further work is being done to ensure appropriate accommodation for all our service personnel?

The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, pointed out that there seemed to be a lack of briefings. When I was first in your Lordships’ House, I remember going to briefings in the MoD main building. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, would give us those briefings and there was often a map showing current deployments. That map had many points and it usually meant some support, which had often been offered by the then Prime Minister, David Cameron. Yet there is always a danger that Prime Ministers offer to do things without necessarily thinking through the logistical consequences of their actions.

Our support for Ukraine is absolutely right but, beyond that, what efforts are His Majesty’s Government putting into ensuring that repeated deployments do not fundamentally undermine the resilience of our Armed Forces? For their families, their training and their own well-being, it is vital that we give sufficient support to our Armed Forces. If we do not do that, the danger is that the defence of the realm will be damaged.

Ukraine: Update

Baroness Smith of Newnham Excerpts

Thursday 19th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, given that it has been a month since the last update, I once again reiterate our full support on this for the Government, and the people, Government and armed forces of Ukraine. We all understand that illegal force has to be stood up to, or the consequences can be severe, as we know from history. That is why the war in Ukraine is important not only for them but for us. It is the defence of democracy, and a stand for international law.

We have heard various reports about the war, often conflicting, so I wonder if the Minister could tell us what the latest situation is in Ukraine, as far as she is able to. On that point, is it not remarkable how, in the face of Russia’s attacks on Ukraine’s civilian infrastructure, however brutal, it has failed to break the will of the Ukrainian people or their Government? Is it not important that they continue to hear the support of us here in the UK, and of the unity of NATO? Is it not the case that sometimes the importance of maintaining the morale of the civilian population can be forgotten? Personal courage, human fortitude and a determination to stand up for what is right need to be saluted wherever they occur, in this instance in Ukraine. Can the Minister update us on the provision of food, energy and other supplies to help the Ukrainian people in their need?

The Secretary-General of NATO said a few days ago that it is important that we provide Ukraine with the weapons it needs to win, so we support the first package of military assistance for 2023 that the Government have just announced. Can the Minister tell us when the 14 Challenger tanks and the other equipment will be supplied to Ukraine, as I understand that speed of delivery is essential? Where are these tanks coming from—are they in storage or currently in active service?

The integrated review cut the number of Challenger tanks from 227 to 148. Do the Government now regret this decision, and will the review of this decision that the Defence Secretary has announced mean reversing the cuts or increasing the numbers above the original 227? Can the Minister tell us what the Chief of the General Staff meant when, according to press reports, he said that the donation of these tanks would leave a gap in our own capability?

The Prime Minister has ordered a review of UK military aid to Ukraine. Could the Minister update the Chamber on whether this has started and why the Prime Minister felt it was necessary to do that when the importance of our support is obvious?

Over the weekend we were also told that No. 10 has tasked

“the Defence Secretary with bringing together European allies to ensure the surge of global military support is as strategic and coordinated as possible.”

The Defence Secretary is in Estonia and Germany this week, I believe. Can the Minister reassure us that European unity remains as strong as ever and that Ukraine is being provided with all the weapons it needs from us all and, indeed, from all our allies?

There was one particularly interesting sentence in the Defence Secretary’s Statement that I draw the Chamber’s attention to. He said that this military package means that Ukraine

“can go from resisting to expelling Russian forces from Ukrainian soil.”

Is that now the Government’s strategic aim?

President Putin believed that his forces would win in Ukraine in a matter of days. He believed that NATO’s resolve would weaken and that western support would fracture and split. In fact, the opposite has happened: NATO is strengthened and we have all shown great resolve, but nowhere near the resolve and bravery of the people of Ukraine and its armed forces. We must continue to do that. Would it not be appropriate for this Chamber and all of us in this Parliament to demonstrate this through not just a Statement but a full debate in this Chamber, so that many noble Lords can contribute to show our solidarity with the people of Ukraine? There is a war in Ukraine, a struggle for democracy on our doorstep. We should debate it in full in this Chamber.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, as usual on matters of defence and in particular Ukraine, from these Benches I fully support the words of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. These Benches also support what the Government are trying to achieve in Ukraine.

The Secretary of State for Defence has again given a very considered Statement to the other place. We should be grateful for the fact that he has been in post now for a considerable amount of time. He has not been one of the Ministers subject to repeated rotations. That is important, because we need to send the right messages—not just to Ukraine, the Ukrainian Government and the Ukrainian people but to Vladimir Putin and Russia—that we are standing shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine in its battle for its independence and sovereignty.

First, I note the helicopter crash yesterday and the loss of the Interior Minister, the Deputy Interior Minister and others from Ukraine since the Statement was given in the other place. I send sincere condolences to their families, and to the Government of Ukraine, whom I hope will be able to find worthy replacements in the interior ministry, because it is important that the Government of Ukraine can continue to defend themselves and their country as effectively as they have been doing for the past 11 months.

I very much support the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, that we should have a full debate on Ukraine. We are coming up to the first anniversary of the invasion, and I wonder whether the usual channels could consider having a full debate, perhaps as soon as we come back after the half-term recess.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, raised questions about what is happening with supplies of food and energy. I noted in the Statement that the Secretary of State talked about the importance of

“collective efforts diplomatically, economically and militarily.”

As one might imagine, much of the Statement is about the military support that His Majesty’s Government propose to give. I realise that this is not quite the Minister’s remit, but could she tell the House whether there are any further moves for co-operation and co-ordination in economic and diplomatic sanctions and other activities to reinforce our commitment to ensuring that Russia understands the strength of western feeling on these matters?

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked about the tanks we are proposing to send. In addition to the question of the location of the tanks, one of the other questions we need to think about is what availability of equipment His Majesty’s Government have. The Hansard recorders and the Minister will probably think, “Oh, no, does Baroness Smith of Newnham really have to ask this question again?” But I think I do, because we are 11 months into this war and our support for Ukraine. Can the Minister advise the House, not on specific negotiations that would breach commercial confidentiality, but on what work His Majesty’s Government are doing with suppliers, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises, to ensure that supply chains are in place? It was one thing in February and March 2022 to say, “We will support Ukraine. We will supply artillery” and so on and so forth. But, 11 months on, are His Majesty’s Government really sure that the UK has the supplies that we need and that in the pipeline for 2023, 2024 and 2025 we have the capabilities? We support the acceleration of support for Ukraine, but the Government need to be very clear that they have in place equipment and supply chain availability to ensure that we can keep the commitments that we are making. They are the right commitments, but we need to be able to deliver.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for their helpful comments. As I have said before, that unanimity of political support in the UK is really important. It has been commented upon to me, and it sends out a very significant message, so I wish expressly to thank both noble Lords for their contributions.

On the latest situation in Ukraine, noble Lords will be aware that the announcement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State in the other place on Monday reflected a very significant augmentation of everything we have been doing. In fact, as I prepared to address the House on the Statement, I looked at the list of equipment, ammunitions, help and provisions, and I thought it might be useful if we managed to produce some kind of summary of everything that has been produced, because in aggregate it is a fantastic amount. With the help of not just the UK but our partners and allies, we have in aggregate produced something really substantive that has absolutely put energy in the Ukrainian armed forces to defend their country and take forward courageously the difficult and deadly fight in which they are engaged. There is no doubt that, by listening to their needs and requests and assessing their intelligence, our intelligence and United States intelligence, we have been able to respond very positively to those needs.

Very importantly, because a request was made for co-ordination, what exactly is happening? I remind the Chamber of what I alluded to yesterday, which is that there is a NATO CHODs meeting yesterday and today, where we are represented by the Chief of the Defence Staff. The Secretary of State is currently in Estonia, at Tapa, and tomorrow there will be the donors conference being convened by the United States in Ramstein, which will be attended by the Secretary of State and the Chief of the Defence Staff. These fora illustrate the extent to which everybody is speaking to one another. There is a very fluid dialogue going on, and if you marry that into structures that have been put in place, such as the international donor co-ordination centre and the international fund to help Ukraine, I think noble Lords will understand that there is a really solid framework to support Ukraine in its endeavour to defend itself.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked specifically about the situation in Ukraine. As I think we are aware, it has been going through considerable challenge with the relentless and merciless onslaught from Russia. The nature of that onslaught is in itself interesting, because it suggests that Russia continues to be disorganised, in a sense. Its strategic aims are not clear. From the Russian end, I think the recent switch of commanding officer—the commanding officer has now been sacked and the original one brought back in—indicates that there is some disarray in Russia’s activity.

None the less, we can try to help on both the military front and the humanitarian front, and that is what we have been doing. I think Members are now pretty conversant with where we have got to on the military front and everything we have been offering. On the humanitarian front, Members will be aware that we have been a leading humanitarian donor, with a £220 million package of humanitarian aid, a fiscal support grant of around £75 million and a £100 million grant to support Ukraine’s energy security and reforms.

We have also been doing grant-in-aid medical equipment to the armed forces: ambulances, tourniquets, field dressings, individual first aid kits, medic packs and hospital consumables. We have used the conflict, stability and security fund to support payment of salaries to the Ukrainian armed forces. Over and above that, the Prime Minister confirmed in November that we would provide £12 million to the World Food Programme and £4 million to the International Organization for Migration to help meet some urgent humanitarian needs, particularly of course during winter. That funding will help provide generators, shelter, water repairs and mobile health clinics.

The UK has more than 350 staff in the region working on the response to the crisis—so that is no small amount of support. That includes humanitarian experts, and within the UK more than 70 staff are working on our humanitarian response. I think it is important to mention that the UK has matched pound for pound the public’s first £25 million for the Disasters Emergency Committee’s Ukraine humanitarian appeal. That is the UK’s largest-ever aid-matched contribution.

On more specific things, as Members will be aware, we have been trying to help with work to restore energy supply and with provision of generators. Very interestingly, we have been trying to help with an array of measures, not least the provision of some military equipment, to assist with de-arming equipment that has been left and also with minefield hunting, to try to identify where there are perils. That is all a very necessary precursor to trying to do anything in the rebuild sense.

In an earlier debate on Ukraine, the noble Baroness, Lady Stuart, brought to my attention the Wilton Park report in December, and I was very grateful to her. I commend this report to any of your Lordships who have not yet read it. It is a really interesting analytical and constructive suggestion as to how we may go forward with rebuilding the country.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, talked about the tragic helicopter crash yesterday. We were desperately saddened to hear about that, and our thoughts obviously go out to the families of all those affected by that tragedy, including the Minister and the other 14 people. Our thoughts are very much with the Ukrainian Government at this time. I have no further information about the crash, so I am unable to give your Lordships any more detail.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked me about the location of the Challengers. For security reasons, I cannot disclose that, but I can say that training has already begun. Somewhere in this voluminous briefing pack, I saw a reference to training starting as soon as the Ukrainian troops arrive in the UK. That is likely to be by the end of this month, which is quite encouraging. All the equipment that we have announced—the subject of this repeated Statement—will be operated by Ukrainian troops on the battlefield in the coming months. I cannot be more precise than that but I think your Lordships will understand that there is a mutual desire on the parts of both the UK and the Ukrainian Government to accelerate this as best we can.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked about the Prime Minister’s earlier reference to a review of what we have been providing. I think your Lordships will now understand that that was more a mechanical inquiry in order to be satisfied that what we have been providing has been used to good effect and is actually changing the dynamic of the conflict, which I think it is. The Prime Minister’s subsequent personal commitment to the new tranche of equipment bears testament to his resolve that the UK Government will stand shoulder to shoulder with the Government of Ukraine to support them in this conflict; there have been significant aid gestures from the United Kingdom since the Prime Minister talked of his review. The noble Lord raised that question with me earlier and I said to him that I saw nothing sinister or alarming about that; to me, it was just a routine check to make sure that we are providing the right things and making a difference.

The noble Lord also referred to the language used by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State when he talked about the war changing from resisting to expelling Russian forces. I have checked Hansard to see what he said. He was talking of Ukraine. He meant that Ukraine can go from resisting to expelling Russian forces from Ukrainian soil. We have always been clear that our defence policy is to support Ukraine in defending itself against this illegal aggression and to take whatever steps it needs, within international law, to repel that aggressor.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about replenishment. I can provide some information that may be more specific than she thought I might be able to give her. We are fully engaged with industry. That is happening not just within the United Kingdom; it is happening across the piece with our NATO allies. As I said yesterday, none of this can be done in a silo. The United Kingdom cannot have a solitary conversation with a producer; we have to be doing it in tandem with our allies and partners to work out clarity on what is needed, who is going to provide it and when. So we are fully engaged with industry allies and partners to ensure both the continuation of supply to Ukraine and that all equipment and munitions granted in kind from UK stocks are replaced as expeditiously as possible.

Exact stockpile details are classified for obvious operational reasons so I cannot give further comment on that, but I can say to the noble Baroness that a number of substantial contracts have already been placed to replenish UK stockpiles directly. These include the replenishment of the Starstreak high-velocity, lightweight, multirole missile. I can confirm that the replacement next-generation light anti-tank weapons, NLAWs, are currently being built, and several hundred missiles will be delivered to UK stockpiles from 2023 onwards. A contract for further NLAWs was signed on 7 December 2022. I hope that reassures your Lordships that this is actively being engaged on.

I have tried to deal with the points that have been raised. I will check Hansard and, if I have omitted anything, I apologise and I shall write.