House of Lords Reform

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2024 Lords Chamber

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

That this House takes note of House of Lords reform.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to open today’s debate on Lords reform. It is an issue that is often discussed and debated by noble Lords across the House, because we take great pride in our responsibilities as a scrutiny and advisory Chamber. Through tabling this important debate, I welcome the opportunity to listen to the considered views of your Lordships. That follows the engagement I have undertaken since I became the Leader of your Lordships’ House and, indeed, previously as Leader of the Opposition.

Like other noble Lords, I value the work that we do, and it is of great pride to me to have been appointed as Lord Privy Seal and Leader of your Lordships’ House. It is not a role I ever anticipated holding when I was introduced to this place 14 years ago. I also recognise that this position is different from others in Cabinet because, as the Leader of the House of Lords, I am the Government’s representative in this Chamber but, just as importantly, it is my responsibility to ensure that our voice is heard in government. We—that is, your Lordships’ House—are all custodians of the principles and customs that make this House unique. I take the responsibility of representing the interests of the Lords seriously. I also consider that, at its best, this House is not just complementary to the other place but an asset. It is because of my respect for the work we do that I share the view that this House should continue to evolve and is not merely preserved in aspic. I want to ensure that we are seen as a part of our Parliament that is both highly relevant and highly regarded.

We offered this debate today not just because of the legislation in the other place but because the Government’s manifesto commitments in this area have brought about a renewed focus, inside and outside the House, on Lords reform more generally. There is growing consensus on the need for a smaller Chamber, with a greater focus on active contribution and which is more representative of the country we serve. My sense is that many share that vision. Of course, there are a range of views on how those objectives might be achieved. That is why I have facilitated today’s debate: to provide an opportunity to discuss these issues and to listen to the views of this House. I am grateful to those noble Lords who have already shared their thoughts and ideas with me.

We are more than aware that, when it comes to meaningful reform of this place, there is a track record of stagnation and stalled attempts. There are those who argue that we should not do anything until we do everything but, with no common consensus or agreement on what “everything” means, we have ended up doing nothing. That is why a more incremental approach is an appropriate way forward.

It is why the Government introduced the House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill, delivering on the first of our manifesto commitments, to remove the right of the remaining hereditary Peers to sit and to vote. This ends the transitional arrangements and completes part of the reform that we started a quarter of a century ago. I want to be very clear that this in no way diminishes the respect for individual colleagues or the recognition of the valuable contributions that many hereditary Peers and their predecessors have made.

I admit that I am slightly uncomfortable about singling out individuals, but I am sure we can all agree that, in particular, the noble Earl, Lord Howe—

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear!

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I will finish the sentence. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, has been a distinguished servant of this House, serving on the Front Benches in government and in opposition since 1991. I also pay tribute to the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, who has diligently served as Convenor of the Cross Benches and as chair of various committees of this House. These noble Lords are just two of the many hereditary Peers who have served the House so well.

The Bill that is due to complete its passage through the other place later today is very specific and focused. It will come before this House to be scrutinised in due course. The Government set out plans for further reforms to the House of Lords in their election manifesto. As I have said, there is an acknowledgement across the Chamber that the House has become too large. At almost every meeting I have had with noble Lords, this has been raised. I have had very thoughtful conversations with the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and with a number of other colleagues, on this matter quite recently. That is partly why our election manifesto referenced a retirement age.

That manifesto included a commitment to strengthen the circumstances in which disgraced Members can be removed and to introduce a new participation requirement, to encourage active participation among Members to support our scrutiny and revising functions. There was also a long-term commitment for an alternative second Chamber that is more representative of the nations and regions.

Given the nature and potential scale of these reforms, the Government will consult further. We will continue to listen to and engage with the views of the House on these proposals; that is why we are having this debate today. I appreciate that there is a range of views, as the manifesto has focused minds on this issue. I think I am right in saying that our manifesto may have been the first to recognise the importance of the work of your Lordships’ House. How we deliver these commitments is important. Some have preferred to express their views to me privately, while others did so during the debate on the King’s Speech. Today’s debate is a further opportunity to hear those views.

In addition to points that noble Lords wish to raise, I would welcome comments on a number of other issues, including how we ensure that all those who sit in this place participate sufficiently in our proceedings. We all have an instinctive view of what participation should involve—and a number of suggestions have been made to me of what that should be—but these views can quite reasonably differ from one noble Lord to another. Obviously, not everybody has to be here all day every day, but we all recognise and expect a commitment to the work of this House. Leave of absence is another area where we can consider whether the rules are currently fit for purpose or there is a case for change.

I would appreciate views on how the House welcomes incoming Members and treats departing Members following retirement. For example, we should consider how we can best introduce new colleagues to our work. We may also wish to consider how best to recognise the contributions of outgoing Members and how to ensure that former Members who wish to do so remain connected to each other and to the House more generally. I have already sought opinions from a number of colleagues as to whether we should set up an association of former Members, as they have in the other place.

I have always felt that this House is at its best when noble Lords, using their experience and professional expertise, often of national or international standing, work together to scrutinise and improve legislation for the betterment of the country and the people we seek to serve. This House has deep historical roots. Our role of scrutinising and revising legislation, holding the Executive to account, has developed over centuries. Change has not always been legislative. This is a House that is also built on norms and conventions, such as the Salisbury/Addison convention and the convention not to veto secondary legislation. There is widespread agreement on the ongoing importance of these conventions, which are recognised and respected by all Members.

It is important that this House continues to reflect on our role as the second Chamber in a legislature that continues to evolve and adapt to reflect the country we serve. It is a collective endeavour to ensure that Members enter this House with the desire to make a valuable contribution and that they are supported to play an active role. We need to ensure that the House is able to replenish the breadth and depth of skills and expertise, and, crucially, that newer Members are given the opportunity to develop their skills and experience as legislators. There will be further discussion about these issues, but the central question is about purpose. How do we ensure that this House can do its best work in complementing the role of the elected Chamber?

Although we should always avoid the temptation of change just for the sake of it, that does not justify endless stagnation or drift. There are careful balances on all these issues. I look forward to hearing what will probably be a range of views and suggestions. I am confident that some will be very ambitious and that others will perhaps be more cautious, but I am sure that this will be a spirited and interesting debate. I hope it will also be useful. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in today’s rather long debate. It has been a significant debate. It has been wide-ranging and largely very thoughtful. We have also had a very wide range of views. I am aware that some noble Lords are fairly new to the debate and new to the House, but others have been round this circle a number of times and have enormous expertise. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, for his contribution today, given the expertise he has brought to this issue, and I know the work he has done the past.

I want to try and address as many of the points raised by noble Lords in the time I have. I stress, as I did in my opening comments, that this is not the end of the conversation or the debate on this and we are listening to comments made. I will address first why the hereditary Peers Bill, which has been introduced and now passed in the other place, was the first item. A number of noble Lords misquoted the manifesto today but the immediate issues brought up were the legislation around the right of hereditary Peers to sit and vote in the House of Lords. The manifesto then went on talk about what has also happened. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, can shake his head, but that is exactly true: it is what is in the manifesto. It is very clear in the manifesto that the first stage is about hereditary Peers. Why would that be the case? Why would that be the first item to be addressed? The reason is that the principle on that issue has already been established and acted on back in 1999 when the legislation went through.

Transitional arrangements were put in place a quarter of a century ago. I heard the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and others say how there was a really engaging process at the time. I think others remember it slightly differently. Viscount Cranborne managed to do a deal—I have to say I admire his negotiating skills—where 92 hereditary Peers remained, and not only did they remain but if they left there was a by-election to replace them. That is extraordinary and I pay tribute to him. I have to say that his party did not really like it and he did not last very long after that. I think the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was a beneficiary of his departing from his position. That is where we are at the moment. But in the idea that this would not be the first step in the current reforms when the principle is already established, I think the noble and learned Lord is being a little bit mischievous and he knows it.

I will comment first on the opening speakers from the main groups. I thank the noble Lord, Lord True, for his comments about the spirit of compromise. I do wish, when I had come to see him before on the Grocott Bill in the spirit of compromise, he had taken that same line there. We may not be where we are today had that been the case. He will recall, as will previous Leaders, that I offered to co-operate on that and help the Government see that legislation removing the by-elections through.

By not doing that, we get to the point where we take the same position. We have heard this time and again from the party opposite tonight: “Do not do anything unless you do everything. We do not know what everything is so let us do nothing”. I am sorry but that is not a sustainable position and—

[Lord True (Con)]

Is it not—

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

On this occasion, I will take one more intervention, given even the lateness of the hour and the lack of opportunity to progress with my argument.

[Lord True (Con)]

I was really trying to help the noble Baroness guide her argument because it is not the first step that the House is interested in; it is the final step. What do the Government propose that this House should do and what should it be? Will she please tell the House?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I have to urge patience on the noble Lord. I am at the start of my comments on the debate and the noble Lord seeks to intervene on me within a few minutes. I would urge him to have a bit of caution and patience, but I want to raise another point. He said that this was sprung on us; how utterly ridiculous. It has been 25 years; it was in the manifesto; it was a major part of his comments and those of others on the King’s Speech. This was not sprung. I wrote an article saying, as I have said in the House on many occasions, that if the by-elections continued this would have been a consequence of that. The option was there to stop the by-elections. One noble Lord—I cannot remember who—said that we have stopped the by-elections now. No, we have only paused them until the conclusion of this legislation.

The noble Lord, Lord Newby, had great strength in his arguments. There was consistency of principle but pragmatism as well. He asked whether I still held the view that the House worked best when there were roughly equal numbers between the government party and the Opposition. That is a personal view which I expressed in a Select Committee that he and I both attended. It is hard to get to those exact numbers, but when you have such a great imbalance as there has been over the last few years, the House does not do its best work. I think the House works better with roughly equal numbers. I will return to that in a moment.

I thank the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, for his very thoughtful and helpful comments. He has been instrumental in bringing forward papers to look at the conventions of the House over the last year or so, and I am grateful to him for his time on that. He was also the first to try to put some detail on the issue of participation. As I said when I opened, I think we all have an innate understanding of what we mean but quantifying that is quite difficult. I am grateful to him for looking to do so and for his comments on laws and conventions.

A number of noble Lords—including the noble Lords, Lord True, Lord Forsyth, Lord Mancroft and Lord Inglewood—talked about there being a power grab for parties on this. It is quite right that, in recent times, no political party has had an overall majority in this House. That is the right way for us to operate; it will not be changed at all by the Bill that has now been completed in the other place. That will not change as a result. If we look at the statistics of how we operate, currently the Conservatives have 34% of your Lordships’ House; after the Bill being implemented, that would be 32%. On my side, currently 22% of the House are Labour Peers; after the hereditary Peers are removed, it will be just 24%. In fact, the party that gets closest to being reflected most accurately is the Liberal Democrats. There will be very little difference between that party’s representation here and in the other place.

I also gently—or perhaps not so gently—remind noble Lords that after 12 years of a Labour Government, there were 24 more Labour Peers than the Conservative Party had. After 14 years of the Conservative Party in government, there were over 100 more Conservative Peers than Labour had. When I hear weaselly words such as, “We’ve got to stop this Prime Minister making appointments”, I ask: why was that never considered prior to the Bill being introduced?

The noble Lord, Lord Newby, also asked what the Government’s view is of the size and composition. He was right to raise that but the noble Lord, Lord Burns, made a very valid point, which I accept. There is little sense in the House reducing its size, by whatever means, if that is not a sustainable position to hold. I will take that away and reflect on it because the noble Lord is right.

We also have to ask: why do we think a smaller House would be the right thing? There has to be the purpose first, which is not having a smaller House. The purpose is to be more effective in how we operate and what we do. The representations I have had from across the House, from almost every noble Lord who has been to see me, is that they think we would do this better with a smaller House. Indeed, some noble Lords who have since departed said to me that they felt as the House got bigger, they were less able to make the contributions that they wanted to make. It is absolutely right that if Members leave the House, that should not necessarily be to create a vacancy for more appointments.

The manifesto talked about retirement age and participation. I am keen to engage further on this and I am grateful to noble Lords who commented on how that could be implemented. A number of issues were raised and I will take those forward. A point made by the noble Lord, Lord Burns, was that one reason the House has become so large is that you have Members coming in but not departing. He sought to look at that at the time of his report. I think that the noble Lords, Lord Hampton and Lord Inglewood, made similar comments.

Several noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Kerr and Lord Liddle, raised something that has been raised before: decoupling the title and the membership of the second Chamber. There is no doubt that, when noble Lords are given a title, it is recognition of work they have done in the past. But it also has to be an expectation of what they are going to do in the future and the contributions they will make. The two go hand in hand. We want to see an active membership. As I said, that does not mean that every Peer has to be here all day every day. We are a full-time House. Not every Member has to be full-time, but they have to make a commitment to the work of this place.

The noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, raised the issue—I think it is an interesting point—of devolved Governments’ First Ministers being offered peerages. The SNP of course does not nominate people to this House. The point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, was that, where there are institutions in which you can make your voice heard, you should do so. I think her party takes a very different position from—I say this in the loosest form—its sister party in Scotland on that one. The noble Lord, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, was the First Minister of Scotland: currently he is the only one from our party. Other parties have made nominations as well. But I think it is a point well made. We want a more diverse House, in terms of a whole range of characteristics, including geography but also age, gender, ethnicity, religion and other issues as well.

A number of noble Lords raised participation. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, for his initial comments on this. I would quite like to have further discussions around the House on this as I do not think there is a consensus on how to move forward. My impression, from the conversations I have had, is that most noble Lords think that this is important, but no one can actually quantify it. What you do not want—I think the noble Baroness, Lady Sanderson, said this—is a perverse incentive to encourage people to turn up or speak when they do not need to speak. But you do want to know that someone is serious about being here.

All of us have expressed concern about those noble Lords—albeit a small number of them—who come in here, sign the book to retain their membership and then walk out and leave. That is not being serious about this House.

[Lord Hacking (Lab)]

Hear, hear.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

It is good to have some encouragement from the noble Lord; it is not always forthcoming.

This comes back to the point the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, made about whether there could be two kinds of title. There are difficulties with that, but I think it is something noble Lords might want to consider. In the manifesto we deliberately were not exact or precise about that. We thought it was something to be discussed by the House and for the House to come forward with something on that. It is about striking the right balance.

I think most noble Lords have spoken in support of the Bill that is going through the House of Commons but have made a number of other comments. Some want us to go further, some sense that it is a first step in the current programme and some are not comfortable with it.

The issue of some Conservative hereditary Peers becoming life Peers was raised. The noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, raised the Earl Marshal and the Lord Great Chamberlain. He is absolutely right; we have to ensure they can properly fulfil all their duties. I have already raised this with the Lord Speaker to ensure that that can happen. We will do nothing that makes it difficult for them to fulfil their responsibilities and constitutional roles. He does not have to table an amendment: we will ensure that happens. I can give him a guarantee already on that one. They will continue to exercise their functions.

The noble Viscount, Lord Astor—who has explained to me why he is unable to be with us for the wind-ups today—the noble Earl, Lord Devon, and the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, raised female succession to hereditary titles. The noble Earl and I have been in correspondence on this. I am sympathetic to his points. It is more complex than I had anticipated. I have made some initial inquiries in this area, and part of the problem is that the original writs of summons—his is much older than anybody else’s—specify that it is through the male line. There are all kinds of issues, including adoption and the expectations of existing heirs. As I say, I am looking into the matter, as he raised it with me, because I know he is interested in it.

The noble Lord, Lord Hampton, said that the removal of the hereditary Peers in that Bill was to clean up politics—that is absolutely not the case. Those are two very different issues, and no one is casting aspersions on individual hereditary Peers.

HOLAC was mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Rennard and Lord Cromwell. They are absolutely right that there are issues with how HOLAC operates. I am not content to leave this entirely to HOLAC; the political parties have to take responsibility for their appointments and the checks that they are supposed to do. There may be something about HOLAC asking for assurances that those checks have been done. There are discussions to be had on that. HOLAC has an important role for the Cross Benches, which have not always had the appointments that they should have in that regard—even though they are currently larger than the Labour group in this place. The point about the quality of new appointments was well made, but political parties have to take some responsibility for that as well, or face the consequences.

The noble Lord, Lord Birt, mentioned diversity and the composition of the House. He and I have discussed this. If we are diverse as a House, the public can look to the House and see that it better represents the country. I do not know where the noble Lord got the idea of a senate of nations and regions. Our longer-term plans say that:

“Labour is committed to replacing the House of Lords with an alternative second chamber that is more representative of the regions and nations”.


In the meantime, we seek to improve the national and regional balance of the second Chamber. That is a worthy objective and one that we should take seriously. We will take it forward.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, asked why we should not bring in a new age limit for the House of Lords now. On the manifesto commitment about Members retiring at the end of the Parliament in which they reach 80, I have to thank my noble friend Lord Foulkes for that suggestion in the first place. He and other noble Lords from the Labour group put that forward.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

I was younger then.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

He may have been younger but he certainly was not more foolish.

I take on board the comments of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, in particular about the cliff edge, and I am happy to discuss that with him further. We want to ensure that, when new Peers come in, they have the opportunity and the time to gain the expertise that others did, so that they can take on those roles as well.

On appointing Peers over 80, there is nothing to say that somebody over 80 cannot play a full part in the role of the House—that is not the issue. It is about ensuring that we reduce the size of the House and that a mix of Members can come in. That is the kind of implementation issue that we will discuss with noble Lords. Some noble Lords clearly were not listening to my opening speech if they thought I did not mention that.

The noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, mentioned party-political donations and said that some may have bought peerages. This is a serious issue. There is a difference between somebody who makes donations and somebody who is a donor, if that makes sense. Lots of people in political parties make small contributions through their membership, but it would be of concern if somebody were appointed only because they were a significant donor, rather than because they had made a wider contribution to society or because of the contribution they would make in this House. I take the noble Duke’s point on that.

On the point from the noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, by-elections have not been ended—they have only been suspended for the passage of the legislation. I would have loved them to be ended; we tried many times, but the then Government would not support that.

The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, is right that he and I have always had a good relationship. It is not just because he reminds me so much of his grandfather, but that is not a bad reason to hold him in high esteem as well.

On a final point, a number of comments and criticisms were made of Members in the other place. The amount of time spent on legislation in the other place has gone down, and I regret that, but I urge noble Lords to think about the pressures on Members of Parliament who are elected, the work that they do and the range of their responsibilities. We have one job in your Lordships’ House: to scrutinise and revise legislation. They have a multifaceted job, and I feel uncomfortable when there are criticisms of them that I feel are unjustified.

I am out of time and do not want to detain the House, but a number of Members raised points about looking for a consensual way forward. The hereditary Peers Bill will make its way here, and I hope we have fruitful discussions on it—but going forward beyond that, I am very happy to have further discussions with noble Lords on the kinds of issues that we have raised tonight. It has been a really helpful and mostly thoughtful and respectful debate, although there were a couple of comments that were not. This is one of those instances when we have largely seen this House working at its best. I assure the House that we will put our best foot forward in shaping the reform agenda for this Parliament, and I look forward to hearing more from noble Lords on the issues that have been raised this evening.

Motion agreed.

Command Paper Safeguarding the Union

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Wednesday 6th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what progress they have made in implementing the measures set out in the Command Paper Safeguarding the Union (CP 1021), published in January.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to implementing the Windsor Framework in good faith and protecting Northern Ireland’s place in the UK internal market. We also continue to take forward policies as set out in the Safeguarding the Union Command Paper. Most recently, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland announced members of the independent monitoring panel and underlined the Government’s commitment to the establishment of InterTrade UK, which I am pleased to see will be chaired by the noble Baroness, Lady Foster. The Government will shortly be announcing a date for the next east-west council.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, is it not the case that the Command Paper rests upon a principle that everyone should welcome and endorse—namely, that the union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland should be as strong and successful as possible? The measures set out in the Command Paper to strengthen the UK internal market include scrapping the legal duties on Ministers to promote and an all-Ireland economy. Is it not important that this be done and imperative to emphasise that, while cross-border co-operation in trade helps everyone, it takes place between states, any form of joint sovereignty and joint authority over Northern Ireland has been firmly ruled out?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I think the noble Lord perhaps misunderstands what is intended. The legal requirement in the report is to “have due regard”, and that persists as long as the section remains in force. In practice, the contents were largely an agreement in principle that has been superseded by the more detailed arrangements of the Windsor Framework and the wider withdrawal agreement. He will know—and I think it is embedded in this House—that we are committed to the place of Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, would the Minister accept that, whatever progress is made in Safeguarding the Union—and I, for one, did not believe it goes far enough—it does not deal with the fundamental problem of the Windsor Framework protocol. People in Northern Ireland, of whatever political persuasion, are disenfranchised. We have no power over 300 areas of law, including vast swathes of the economy. A foreign political entity makes those laws, develops and amends them, without any say or vote by any MP elected in Northern Ireland or any Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Surely that colonial status, in part of the United Kingdom, the fifth or sixth biggest economy in the world, is something that is untenable and acceptable in economic, constitutional and democratic terms.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord supported Brexit at the time, and he will be aware that the way in which Brexit was undertaken brought with it enormous constitutional implications. We have always sought to safeguard the position of Northern Ireland in the UK and in the internal market, but he will understand the pressures on business. We will do all we can to reduce those pressures to make it as stable as possible. Northern Ireland is an integral part of the UK, and the internal market is an important part that we will do everything we can to safeguard.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

Does the noble Baroness agree that, even since the publication of this report last January, there has been considerable and important new thinking on trade facilitation of all kinds, particularly within the United Kingdom? Will she assure us that the report published today by the Trade Facilitation Commission, which contains many of these ideas, is taken full account of by the independent monitoring group or whoever is going to be driving this pattern forward?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the most important thing here is to safeguard the trading position and the internal market. When ideas, suggestions and reports come forward, of course they will all get the due consideration that they deserve in the best interests of the Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her answers thus far and declare my interest as chair of InterTrade UK. I asked her colleague the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, about the removal of Section 10(1)(b) of the European withdrawal Act, as committed to in Safeguarding the Union. This follows on from the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Lexden. In a Written Answer, I have been told that the Government are not minded to repeal it, despite the fact that it was a commitment in Safeguarding the Union. My simple question is: why?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise if I was not clear in my Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, but I thought that I was. As was also said in her Written Answer, as I understand it, in practice its contents are primarily an agreement in principle that has now been superseded by the more detailed arrangements of the Windsor Framework and the wider withdrawal agreement.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that, just as the Kremlin interfered in the referendum on Brexit, because it is in its interest to see the break-up of the European Union, it is now undermining the United Kingdom in a number of ways, including through social media, particularly in supporting certain parties in Ireland and in the rest of the United Kingdom? Will she discuss with colleagues having increased activity by our intelligence services and others to try to make sure that this is stopped immediately?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, if there is any malign influence in the elections in this country or its politics from a hostile state, or any other country that seeks to undermine our democracy, we will of course do whatever is necessary to protect our democracy, which we regard as having the utmost integrity.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister able to tell the House when we might hear a few details about what the reset of relations with the EU might actually mean?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, there is some indication of that already by the engagement between Ministers and the EU. We are obviously engaging Northern Ireland on that, given its importance to Northern Ireland. As that proceeds further, we will give updates as and when we can.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, the Government’s manifesto committed to implementing the Windsor Framework in good faith, but it was silent on the Safeguarding the Union Command Paper. Does the noble Baroness acknowledge the enormous effort that went into Safeguarding the Union, which, taken in its entirety, was crucial to the restoration of devolved government in Northern Ireland in February? Will she commit to implementing Safeguarding the Union in all its parts? In 2021, the then leader of the Opposition stated:

“I … believe in the United Kingdom and … want to make the case for the United Kingdom”.


But in Belfast, days after becoming Prime Minister, he said that he would be an honest broker on the issue. Which is it?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is struggling there to come up with something that does not exist. This party is committed to the union; he knows that. Noble Lords just have to look at the budget for Northern Ireland, which under this Government now has the largest settlement in real terms in the history of devolution. That is one way in which we show our commitment. There have been 14 ministerial visits to Northern Ireland since the election, with the Prime Minister visiting twice. I do not think that anybody could be in any doubt about our commitment to Northern Ireland’s place in the union.

[Lord Elliott of Ballinamallard (UUP)]

My Lords, as someone who believed that the Command Paper would not do as it said on the tin, it is probably proving that way now. The document mentions the veterinary and veterinary medicine problems with the European Union on at least 15 occasions and there has been no progress on that whatever. I declare an interest as a Northern Ireland farmer. What will the Minister and her party do about progressing that issue?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I can assure the noble Lord that this is a priority for the Government. We are continuing to work at pace. He will be aware that the veterinary medicines working group is advising the Government. It met in September and will do so again this month; we will provide an update as soon as possible.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

Presumably, the regional envoy has an important role in promoting the union. When will Sue Gray be starting her job?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I must admit that I am quite fascinated by the noble Lord’s obsession with one individual on what is a major issue for the people of Northern Ireland. As and when, I will be happy to update him when she does.

Scotland

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Monday 4th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Lochiel]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to strengthen Scotland’s position within the United Kingdom.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)]

My Lords, the people of Scotland deserve Governments who work together and are focused on delivering for them. Within the UK, Scotland will be the powerhouse for our clean energy mission, with Great British Energy’s headquarters being based there. We will restore decision-making over the allocation of structural funds to representatives of Scotland and we will champion Brand Scotland at home and abroad.

[Lord Cameron of Lochiel (Con)]

Of course, one way to strengthen Scotland’s position within the United Kingdom is to support our key industries. However, last week’s Budget saw a 2.7% increase in spirits duty—a move described as a betrayal by the Scotch Whisky Association. The whisky sector sustains thousands of jobs, mainly in Scotland’s most rural and remote communities. Can the Minister explain why this Government have chosen to punish such an iconic industry?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, if the noble Lord checks back to past Budgets, I think he will find that previous Chancellors from his side of the House put more of an increase on Scotch whisky, whereas this was an increase in line with RPI. If he looks at the Budget overall, he will see that the amount awarded to Scotland is actually significantly greater than at any other time since devolution.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, under this Government’s predecessor, with the SNP in government in Scotland, the relationship between Holyrood and Westminster was at best uneasy and too often characterised by mutual suspicion and sometimes open acrimony. Given Labour’s record on devolution, what lessons have been drawn from last month’s inaugural meeting of the Council of the Nations and Regions on resetting the relationship between the Scottish and UK Governments, which of course is a manifesto pledge?

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, we have thought about this a lot and, going forward, it is key to how we work across government. It goes back to the idea that we are stronger together. Unless both Governments work together, in the interests of the people of Scotland, we will not get the best outcomes for them. I think it also means, as my noble friend will be aware, that devolution does not mean that the British Government should abdicate their responsibilities to Scotland. We have a very strong role, and we remain committed to strengthening the union.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that for many people in Scotland, especially young people and businesses, the benefits of being part of the United Kingdom would be considerably strengthened if the Government’s reset with the European Union included accepting the youth mobility scheme, rejoining Erasmus, securing flexible visa arrangements for our creative industries and working to rejoin the single market?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, that question goes a little wider than anticipated, but I admire the noble Lord’s ingenuity. The important thing for young people and older people across the UK is to know that they have a Government who work with the devolved Governments in their best interests. That is what has been lacking for some time.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, can the Leader of the House confirm that this is the best settlement in real terms since the Scottish Parliament was set up, and yet the services in education, health and other devolved areas are deteriorating in Scotland? Will the Government do everything possible to stop the Scottish Government spending money on vanity projects, such as “Air Miles” Angus—their pretend Foreign Secretary—travelling the equivalent of three times around the world already? Can they make sure that every penny the Scottish Government get is spent on devolved areas?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I think my noble friend hits the nub of the issue. Yes, he is right, and I am happy to agree with him: it is the largest real-terms Budget settlement for the Scottish Government in the history of devolution. It is £1.5 billion in this financial year and will be £3.4 billion in the next. The point he made is that how that money is spent is really important. We have seen poorer outcomes in Scotland for people in the National Health Service, with longer waiting lists, and educational standards have not increased as they should. This is where that money should be focused—to deliver real benefits for the people of Scotland.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, would the Leader agree that the presence of one of the RAF’s main operating bases on the Moray Firth and one of the Navy’s at Faslane, along with a number of Army units, reflect the strategic importance of Scotland within the union? They bring significant economic benefit to those areas, a situation that would be greatly enhanced if this Government could ever get around to funding defence of the realm adequately.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

There is always a sting in the tail, is there not? We do recognise the contribution they make, both to the defence of the country and the economy. The Government remain committed to reaching 2.5% GDP defence spend. The noble and gallant Lord will be aware, as will the House after the sterling efforts of my noble friend Lord Livermore, that we have been left with a £22 billion black hole—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

The party opposite may not like it, but the reality is that we have to get the finances of this country on a stable footing, and I can assure the House that that is what we shall do.

[Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)]

My Lords, what discussions have His Majesty’s Government had with the Scottish Government following the launch last month of the UK industrial strategy? Have the specific Scottish commitments in it, on medicine manufacturing, offshore wind and the Advanced Forming Research Centre in Strathclyde, been welcomed by the Scottish Government?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, if they have not, they should be. The industrial strategy is the core of our mission for economic growth, and the meetings so far have been very positive. We have published the Green Paper, which will kick-start our programme on this. It is a modern industrial strategy for the days and years ahead for this country. It will be published next spring, and it will be in line with the multiyear spending review. Unless we take advantage and make the most of growth across the whole of the UK, we will deny the people of Scotland and of this country the benefits of a strong economy that they deserve.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, the last quarterly report on intergovernmental relations between the four Governments was produced by the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, as it then was, and it arrived in December last year. Will these quarterly reports still be produced? Will they move to the Cabinet Office?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I do not have a precise answer for the noble Earl, but I will look into this. It is important that this is at the heart of government, with the responsibility lying there. I am confident that we will find a way of making progress and of marking that progress in a way that is easily understood. I will take a precise note of the noble Earl’s question and come back to him with a fuller answer.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, the reason behind the breakdown in the relationship that the noble Lord pointed out was that, through the last Parliament, there was a continual flow of legislation that trod on the toes of the devolution process. The noble Baroness knows well that the common frameworks process was set up explicitly to deal with these kinds of issues. Can she update your Lordships’ House on where we are with the common frameworks and when we will see them back in the process of making sure that toes do not get trodden on again?

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes an important point. In some ways it is the opposite—the other side of the coin—to that made by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. We have reserved and devolved matters, and it is about making sure that we stick to our responsibilities and work together. The only way this works is with each Government having respect for the other and working together, so I assure him that that is what we seek to do and will continue to do.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that £47.7 billion was given to the Scottish Government last week—the highest amount in history? Will she join me in congratulating the Chancellor on that distinctive amount of money? But will she also call into question some of the expenditure mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, on vanity projects, rather than turning round the economy of Scotland, as it deserves? Incidentally, the money was made available because of a former Member on this side of the House, Joel Barnett—Lord Barnett—and it was supposed to be only a short-term measure, but it has been about 40 years now.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, it sometimes feels like 40 years can go by in the blink of an eye in your Lordships’ House. I remember Lord Barnett well. The noble Baroness is absolutely right: the real-terms increase of £3.4 billion next year takes Scottish funding to £47.7 billion—the largest settlement ever in devolution history. Of course, that is on top of the £125 million confirmed for GB Energy. We have also committed funds to Brand Scotland, which will promote investment opportunities in Scotland. The noble Baroness’s basic point is important: the additional money is supposed to directly benefit the people of Scotland, in the economy, health and education. We look forward to working with the Scottish Government to make sure that that is the case.

Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015 (Extension) Bill [HL]

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3rd reading
Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

That the Bill be now read a third time.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)]

My Lords, I have it in command from His Majesty the King to acquaint the House that His Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015 (Extension) Bill, has consented to place his prerogative, so far as it is affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.

Bill read a third time.

Moved by

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who spoke in the debate on the Bill and have otherwise indicated support and commented on the Bill. There have been no amendments throughout the Bill. I wish that could be said for many other Bills, but I suspect that may not be the case as we proceed. This is a straightforward Bill, limited in its scope, requested by the Church of England with the simple aim to extend by five years the arrangements in place for the appointment of Lords spiritual contained within the Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015.

I particularly thank the Convenor of the Lords Spiritual, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans—and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds for being here today—for his support during the passage of the Bill, along with other noble Lords who spoke and engaged in the debate.

Your Lordships will know that, as a result of that legislation six female Bishops have already been appointed to your Lordships’ House more quickly than would otherwise have been the case. In fact, we are about to see the benefits of this legislation in place again. Following the retirement of the Bishop of Worcester, the Bishop of Peterborough will replace him in the House of Lords in due course under this legislation. I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester for his 12 years of dedicated service in this place, and I very much look forward to welcoming another female Bishop to the Bishops’ Benches.

Finally, I thank my officials and those from the Church of England, who worked together on the Bill. I thank the Official Opposition for their support and other noble Lords too. I hope it will have as smooth a passage in the other place. In that spirit, I beg to move.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the fact that the Bill has strong support in the House, and that support includes these Benches. We are pleased to work with the Government in cases such as this where our objectives are aligned. I am proud of our record supporting women in this House, and our women Bishops have made many valuable contributions to Parliament since they first became Members of your Lordships’ House. As a frequent member of church congregations, I can confirm that this reflects the sterling work of female clergy right across the country.

Finally, I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, who is not in his place but has so eloquently led for the Bishops on this matter, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds. I thank the noble Baroness the Lord Privy Seal for her work on this Bill and I thank the officials involved. As she has said, I hope the other place looks upon the Bill favourably.

Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015 (Extension) Bill [HL]

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Order of Commitment discharged
Wednesday 16th October 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

That the order of commitment be discharged.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand that no amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee. Unless, therefore, any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the order of commitment be discharged.

Motion agreed.

Ministerial Gifts and Hospitality

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Wednesday 16th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the reporting and acceptance of Ministerial gifts and hospitality.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)]

My Lords, transparency is a critical part of restoring public faith in politics, and the Government recognise that changes are needed. At present, ministerial data on gifts and hospitality is published quarterly, compared with the parliamentary requirement in both Houses to publish monthly. The Government will correct this imbalance in future. The Government will publish a register of Members’ gifts and hospitality on a broadly equivalent basis to that which is published in the registers of Members’ and Lords’ interests.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, the Government pledged to act with trust and integrity, and it is extraordinary that, 100 days in, we have witnessed scandal after scandal—from cronyism to cash for access, from Sue Gray to spectacles, and from designer freebies to Taylor Swift tickets and associated police outriders. Really: this seems to portray a staggering lack of judgment by the Prime Minister. Would it not be wiser to come clean and admit these initial mistakes?

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I am almost speechless. As I have said, the important thing is transparency. The only reason why there is information in the public domain about any gifts or donations is transparency. I am surprised that the noble Baroness did not comment on the changes being brought forward by the Government. It seems to be a terrible anomaly that under the last Government, Ministers who received hospitality gifts would have a quarter in which to declare them as ministerial hospitality gifts with no value, yet a Member of Parliament sitting next to them would declare them in a month, along with the actual value. That has to be changed.

I get why cultural events like orchestras, cricket, football and other sporting events are so popular, and why that is important. However, I struggle to understand why Ministers should not have declared these in the same way MPs did. They did not under the noble Baroness’s Government; they will under ours.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, as well as looking at gifts more strictly, should the Government not also be looking at subsidies for politicians? We read that Boris Johnson is receiving £4 million for the publication of his brief memoirs. Does this suggest that the Daily Mail and others are overpaying in order to support his political activities and lifestyle? We also read that GB News is paying Nigel Farage MP £1 million for a part-time job as a presenter, and six-figure sums to several others, like Jacob Rees-Mogg. GB News announced a loss of £30 million last year. If these are effectively subsidies for political activities, should they not also be investigated and reported transparently?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, any gifts, earnings, et cetera to Members of Parliament have to be declared in full. Of course, not all those whom the noble Lord mentioned are still Members of Parliament. I think all organisations would want to make a judgment on whether or not they were getting value for money.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, the Front Benches may well cross cocktail sticks, but people looking at undue hospitality and gifts see the whole thing as sleaze and corruption. That damages trust in institutions of government. In my view, the most effective antidote is to make the giving and receiving of gifts and hospitality above a certain amount a criminal offence. Does the Minister agree? If not, why not?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

No, my Lords, I do not agree that it should be a criminal offence, but there has to be complete transparency about this. Presumably, many Members of this House have wanted to attend cultural events or seminars and conferences, sometimes to inform the work they do in this House. That should be declared, but so should cultural events that are received as gifts. Some of the media outlets that have complained rather bitterly about others taking hospitality have themselves offered hospitality for Ministers to discuss the very issues they are interested in.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, as an independent, I was glad that this Government came in. However, what has upset me is the high moral tone this Government came in with, before then having freebies. I wonder whether the Government recognise that I am not the only person who is upset by a combination of a high moral tone and freebies.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, it is right that we would all want to take a high moral tone because we want the standards of this House and the other place to be as high as possible. The definition of “freebies” is rather emotive, and people make their own judgments about it. For me, two things are important: first, the transparency when an invitation is provided, and, secondly, whether there is a transactional expectation —if somebody expects something in return. That is what I think people are most concerned about. If there is no transactional relationship, it is appropriately declared and it is in the limits provided for, people have to make their judgments about whether they accept such hospitality or gifts.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, given that the Prime Minister has justified receiving large sums of money for suits and other clothing on the grounds that it is important that senior Ministers are seen to be presentable, does the Leader of the House have any plans, given that so many of her colleagues on the Front Bench are unpaid, to introduce a clothing allowance for them?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I may open a fund, and the noble Lord is at liberty to contribute to it if he wishes. All ministerial colleagues in this House, whether paid or unpaid, are pretty well turned out.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Leader of the House agree with me that the Opposition have a cheek to raise this? Bear in mind that, under the previous Government, billions of pounds were given to Tory Members and supporters during Covid.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend raises a very serious point. I asked Questions to noble Lords in this House when they were Ministers about the amount of money that has not been returned to the taxpayer. There still needs to be an investigation to understand how much money the taxpayer lost on dodgy contracts.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, there is a strong argument that Ministers should accept more invitations to arts events, because they are not frivolous extras. Beyond American superstars, invitations to British arts events allow Ministers to appreciate and understand the essential importance of the arts and creative industries in this country.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

The noble Earl makes a very valuable point. The two things to identify are, first, whether the relationship is not transactional—as I have said, when it is for information or to appreciate the arts—and, secondly, whether it is properly declared. What I find difficult is seeing Ministers who had no departmental responsibility for cultural events not declaring these as parliamentary activities or hospitality and hiding them away for several months, when they have no ministerial value. I would be pleased to accept invitations to such events and do so occasionally, but I guarantee that I declare them in full as parliamentary activities and with any value alongside them.

[Lord Clarke of Nottingham (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to say that, throughout my political career, I have always thought that the British political system was remarkably free—almost entirely free—of any hint of corruption, and that people on all sides were acting for the best possible motives. Genuine cases of corruption—fortunately, of a minor kind, such as the cash for questions scandals—and the people behind them were dealt with. I agree that people should be transparent when they take hospitality, but if both parties insist on attacking each other when the other side has been given a football match ticket, or something of that kind, I fear the effect of such a debate is to feed the general and unjustified contempt that so many of the public have for politicians on all sides. We should not try to create scandal on either side of the House, when we know that, at worst, the case is a silly lack of judgment or carelessness in keeping the register up to date.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes a valuable and very powerful point. My experience after 25 years in this and the other place is that most politicians—most Members of Parliament, including Members of your Lordships’ House—act with integrity at all times. Where they fall short of those standards, that should be taken very seriously, but we should of course oppose denigrating all politicians in the way some would like to and recognise the good in politicians. The two things that are really important are transparency and not having transactional relationships for any gifts or hospitality.

House of Lords: Behaviour and Courtesy

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Monday 14th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the first Oral Question is from the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, who is participating remotely.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Chief Whip and I, with the Front Bench and the usual channels, are committed to promoting the rules and conventions of the House on an ongoing basis. This includes advising on individual items of business and general communications about points of procedure. The Chief Whip, with the usual channels, recently wrote to all Members reminding us of the normal courtesies of the House and expected standards of behaviour. This is to support noble Lords in understanding the rules and conventions. In a self-regulating Chamber, it is crucial that we all maintain high-quality debate, respect for the conventions and respect for each other.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, having participated remotely in proceedings over three years, I have been able to observe from afar the conduct of Members. Do Members not realise how appalling the House appears to a worldwide audience when Peers, who include some of the brightest people in the land, openly argue, protest, shout across the Chamber and demand who should be called, in an attempt to control contributions? We cannot go on like this; it looks awful. Why not establish a committee of the House to consider whether we would be better served by giving the Speaker greater powers to intervene? The current arrangements demean our reputation. We have a problem and it needs sorting.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, on the first part of the noble Lord’s question, I am impressed if today we have a worldwide audience. I hope that is the case. Nothing is more undignified and disrespectful to colleagues than when others shout so that those with the loudest voices get heard. I have to say, I do not think it happens that often. I am not really encouraged to set up a new committee. The House itself makes its views known and my noble friend Lord Kennedy, the Chief Whip, has been quite encouraging—let us say—of Members to abide by the conventions and behaviours of the House. I know that for some Members it does seem strange from time to time, but I urge all Members that if we all behave with dignity and respect for others, this should not be a problem.

[Lord Geddes (Con)]

My Lords, I am told I have a certain reputation in the context of this Question. I ask the Lord Privy Seal two things: first, to emphasise that Questions should not be read; and, secondly, to confirm that, for reasons unknown to myself, there is no such person as a “noble Minister”. There is a “noble Lord the Minister”, but the office is, for some curious reason, not deemed noble.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, Questions should not be read. They should be concise and questions rather than speeches. My noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark has pointed this out on many occasions and will continue to do so. On the noble Lord’s second point, many noble Lords—including me, on occasion —have felt chastised when they have slipped up and referred to someone as a “noble Minister”. He is absolutely right: it is the “noble Lord the Minister” or the “noble Baroness the Minister”. This makes the point: we have to abide by the rules and conventions of the House in order to conduct our business appropriately.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, having been in your Lordships’ House a long time, I do not think that the degree of shouting at Questions has become significantly worse than when I started. For me, in the current environment, it is more important than ever that everybody in public life is tolerant and shows respect to everyone. Does the noble Baroness the Leader agree that Members of your Lordships’ House have a particular responsibility not to say anything in this Chamber which might lead to greater divisions in society than the ones with which we are already struggling?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, your Lordships will have heard the response from the whole House, and I think that is definitely the case. All of us, particularly those in positions of responsibility—or when there is a worldwide audience—should choose our words with care, because they have an impact. We have a duty and responsibility to behave appropriately.

[The Lord Bishop of Sheffield]

My Lords, it is surely a very good thing that the dealings of this Chamber are broadcast live, but it does mean that our interactions with one another are witnessed far beyond this place. Can the noble Baroness tell the House whether any attempt is made to monitor or record comments from the public in reaction to the broadcasts and, if so, what use is made of that feedback?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, from time to time we see reports in the press or polls are undertaken in response. One that struck me most recently said how little people understood the work we do in this House. That is incumbent on us all, not just in our behaviour but in our explanation about what we do. Perhaps we ought to think a little more, particularly when we have debates on some of our very specialised reports or the detail of legislation, about how we can broadcast that more widely, so that people understand what goes on in this Chamber.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, as this Question is in essence about the powers of the Lord Speaker, it is worth putting that into a bit of context. When the Lord Speaker’s position was introduced, it was in the context of great hostility to us having a Lord Speaker at all. The Speaker was allowed only to sit in the Chamber and was forbidden from speaking under any circumstances; the Lord Speaker was the only person who could not speak.

Since then, a number of small but significant changes have been made, all of which have enhanced the role of the Lord Speaker. In the context of every one of those changes—the Speaker taking over from the clerk in introducing the next Question, and many similar things, such as explaining the business as it comes along—no one suggests now that we should revert to the system that existed without the Lord Speaker. The direction of travel is very much in the direction of the case argued by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. I remember the controversy when the first Lord Speaker—the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, who is in her place—was introduced. Every Lord Speaker has done this House proud. Of course, their role is not just one in the Chamber but a wider one of advocacy for the House of Lords. The noble Lord is right that each of those changes—I was the advocate for the last one of announcing next business when we move from Bills to Statements—has been made with the agreement of the House. I always think that is the best way to proceed on these issues.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, if there is a Question that is really about the role of the Lord Speaker, it might be helpful to noble Lords if that were made clear when the Question is tabled. I agree with both what the noble Baroness the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Liberal Democrat Peers said. This House is a courteous House and I do not recognise that deterioration; I think it remains a courteous House and it is exemplified, if I may say so, by the noble Baroness the Leader herself. I support what has been said from the opposite Front Bench about behaviour, including remarks about brevity. Perhaps, after the recent intervention by the Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms, we should circulate the Oxford English Dictionary to Members.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I hesitate to intrude on that one. The noble Lord is right but, having said that, there have been moments when I think all of us have been embarrassed when noble Lords do not give way to each other, so I understand the point that has been made. It comes back to respect and courtesy. With the powerful advocacy of the usual channels, we can maintain that. It is always open to noble Lords who wish to change procedure to ask the Procedure Committee to consider any such change.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, there is something I find quite puzzling sometimes, and that is that we have to give way to our right reverend friends the Bishops. I do not understand why that happens. Could the Leader explain that? They always make a very good contribution, but they do have loud voices and can speak up just as we can. The most reverend Primate of England—and the world—the Archbishop of Canterbury actually gave way to me once, for which I was very grateful.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I think the noble Baroness made the point; Bishops have given way to her. There is no rule that says that you must give way to a Bishop; it is through courtesy, and we would expect to hear from the Bishops, as we hear from other sections of the House.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

Given that there is an element of politeness—quite properly—I wonder whether underneath that, when trying to get in on a supplementary, there is an element that people who are meek and mild, such as myself, find ourselves fairly easily bullied by those who are less meek and mild. There are some people who are reluctant to get in at Questions because they feel intimidated. That is the other side of this Question. That is why I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I have never considered the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, to be meek or mild but he is always courteous. When I first came into your Lordships’ House, a long-standing Member said to me that previously, on his area of expertise, he wanted to speak but did so rarely that people would give way because they wanted to hear his views on that area. I think it is less about courtesy and more about loudness of voices. If I can just inject something else here, quite often noble Lords have much louder voices than our female Members of the House. It might be a bit thoughtful sometimes if noble Lords would give way to those who do not have such loud voices.

Anniversary of 7 October Attacks: Middle East

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Tuesday 8th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)]

My Lords, I will repeat a Statement made by the Prime Minister yesterday on the anniversary of the attacks on 7 October and on the Middle East. The Statement is as follows:

“Today we mark a year since the horrific attack on Israel by the terrorists of Hamas. It was the bloodiest day for the Jewish people since the Holocaust—a day of sorrow, a day of grief. Over 1,000 people were massacred, with hundreds taken hostage, in an attack born of hatred, targeted not just at individuals but at Jewish communities, at their way of life and at the State of Israel—the symbol of Jewish security to the world. Fifteen British citizens were brutally slain that day. Another has since died in captivity. Our thoughts today are with Jewish people around the world, the Jewish community here in the UK and all those we lost a year ago.

For so many, the pain and horror of that day is as acute today as it was a year ago. They live it every day. Last week I met the families of British hostages and of those killed on 7 October. I sat with them as they told me about their loved ones. I will never forget their words. Mandy Damari spoke of her love for her daughter Emily. She said:

‘my personal clock stopped at 10:24 on the 7th of October’,

the moment when Emily sent a desperate, unfinished message as Hamas attacked her kibbutz. She is still held captive today. We can hardly imagine what hostages like Emily are going through, nor what their families are going through—the agony day after day. So I say again: the hostages must be returned immediately and unconditionally. They will always be uppermost in our minds. I pay tribute again to the families for their incredible dignity and determination.

Today is also a day of grief for the wider region, as we look back on a year of conflict and suffering. The human toll among innocent civilians in Gaza is truly devastating. Over 41,000 Palestinians have been killed, tens of thousands orphaned and almost 2 million displaced, facing disease, starvation and desperation without proper healthcare or shelter. It is a living nightmare and it must end. We stand with all innocent victims in Israel, Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon and beyond, and we stand with all communities here in the United Kingdom against hatred of Jews or Muslims, because any attack on a minority is an attack on our proud values of tolerance and respect, and we will not stand for it.

With the Middle East close to the brink, and the very real danger of a regional war, last week the Iranian regime chose to strike Israel. The whole House will join me in utterly condemning this attack. We support Israel’s right to defend herself against Iran’s aggression in line with international law. Let us be very clear: this was not a defensive action by Iran; it was an act of aggression and a major escalation in response to the death of a terrorist leader. It exposes once again Iran’s malign role in the region. It helped equip Hamas for the 7 October attacks. It armed Hezbollah, which launched a year-long barrage of rockets on northern Israel, forcing 60,000 Israelis to flee their homes, and it supports the Houthis, who mount direct attacks on Israel and continue to attack international shipping.

I know the whole House will join me in thanking our brave servicemen and servicewomen, who have shown their usual courage in countering this threat, but make no mistake: the region cannot endure another year of this. Civilians on all sides have suffered far too much. All sides must now step back from the brink and find the courage of restraint. There is no military solution to these challenges, so we must renew our diplomatic efforts. Together with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs, I have had discussions with the leaders of Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority, the G7 and the European Union, and made the case at the United Nations for political solutions and an end to fighting.

In the weeks ahead, we will continue this work, focused on three areas. The first is Lebanon, where our immediate priority is the safety of British citizens. Our team is on the ground, helping to get people out. We have already brought more than 430 people home on chartered flights, and we stand ready to make additional evacuation efforts as necessary. I again give this important message to British citizens still in Lebanon: you must leave now. We are also working to ease the humanitarian crisis in Lebanon—last week we provided £10 million of vital support, in addition to the £5 million we are already providing to UNICEF—but the situation cannot go on. We will continue to lead calls for an immediate ceasefire and for the return to a political plan for Lebanon based on Security Council resolution 1701, which requires Hezbollah to withdraw north of the Litani river. They must stop firing rockets and end this now, so that people on both sides of the border can return to their homes.

Secondly, we must renew efforts for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but we cannot simply wait for that to happen. We must do more now to provide relief to the civilian population. That is why we have restarted aid to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. We are supporting field hospitals and the delivery of water, healthcare and treatment for malnourished children, but the ongoing restrictions on aid are impossible to justify. Israel must open more crossings and allow life-saving aid to flow. Crucially, Israel must provide a safe environment for aid workers. Too many have been killed, including three British citizens. Israel must act now, so that, together with our allies, we can surge humanitarian support ahead of winter.

Thirdly, we must put in place solutions for the long term, to break the relentless cycle of violence. The ultimate goal here is well understood: it must be a two-state solution. There is no other option that offers stability and security. We need to build a political route towards it, so that Israel is finally safe and secure, alongside the long-promised Palestinian state. This requires support for the Palestinian Authority to step into the vacuum in Gaza; it requires an urgent international effort to support reconstruction; and it requires guarantees for Israel’s security. We will work with our allies and our partners to that end, but the key to all this remains a ceasefire in Gaza now, the unconditional release of the hostages, and the unhindered flow of aid. That is the fundamental first step to change the trajectory of the region.

Nobody in this House can truly imagine what it feels like to cower under the bodies of your friends, hoping a terrorist will not find you, mere minutes after dancing at a music festival. Nobody in this House can truly imagine seeing your city, home, schools, hospitals and businesses obliterated, with your neighbours and family buried underneath. It is beyond our comprehension, and with that should come a humility. It is hard even to understand the full depth of this pain, but what we can do is remember. What we can do is respect and listen to the voices that reach out to us at these moments, and what we can do is use the power of diplomacy to try to find practical steps that minimise the suffering on the ground and work towards that long-term solution, so that a year of such terrible and bloody conflict can never happen again. That is what we have done on these Benches, it is what the whole House has done, and it is what the Government will continue to do. I commend this Statement to the House”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Leader for repeating the Statement. Today, we mark an extraordinarily sombre anniversary. The barbarism of the Hamas attack was almost beyond imagining, and our thoughts today are very much with Jewish people, wherever they may be—not just in recognition of the sorrow and grief felt by those directly affected but because the events of 7 October were only the start of a year of fear and anxiety for the entire Jewish community, wherever they live, which continue to this day. Of course, it has also been a horrendous year for the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank, as well as for the population of Lebanon, which now finds itself engulfed in a cycle of increasing violence and destruction.

The last 12 months have amply demonstrated that the British Government’s ability to influence events in the region is limited. Neither Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah nor Iran is exactly in the mood to be told what to do by the United Kingdom. But that does not mean that we should do nothing. The Statement mentions three areas where we can and are doing something distinctive, and where we might do more.

First, we can do more to aid the innocent populations of Gaza and Lebanon. In the case of Gaza, we are now funding UNRWA again, which is most welcome. The Statement is unclear about how much our new commitment to UNRWA amounts to and how far this provision of aid is constrained by our financial resources and how far by the unjustifiable Israeli restrictions on the flow of aid into Gaza. Can the Leader clarify this? What is the Israeli Government’s response to our requests for the opening of more crossings and the provision of a safe environment for aid workers?

Secondly, on Lebanon, the Government are now providing £15 million of support, but this is a small fraction of the £200 million that we were providing in 2019, when obviously there was nothing like the level of devastation that now prevails. Will the Government accept that £15 million, though helpful, is plainly a very small drop in the ocean? Will they commit to increasing it?

Thirdly, the Government have supported Israel militarily in countering the bombardment it suffered from Iran last week. We are sympathetic to this support, but the Statement is totally silent on the form it took, and the Government have been unclear about its limits. At a point when Israel is clearly contemplating a military response to the Iranian attack, it would be helpful if the Government could confirm that the military support they give to Israel in the future will continue to be limited to defensive purposes.

We can and should do everything possible to fight hatred of Jews or Muslims in the United Kingdom. Attacks on both communities have increased greatly in the last 12 months. Passions have been inflamed and, although the situation in the UK will inevitably remain more tense as long as there is severe conflict in the Middle East, calmer voices can and must prevail. In a number of places, faith leaders from Jewish, Muslim and Christian communities have come together to deliver messages of unity in their localities, not least in schools. Such initiatives are hugely important, and we should do whatever we can, as individuals, to support them in the places where we live.

The last year has seen an escalating cycle of violence and destruction across the Middle East, and it seems quite conceivable that this cycle has some way to run. However forlorn it may seem today, we need to redouble our efforts to get the hostages released, to achieve a ceasefire in Gaza and Lebanon, and to add impetus to the political process, with the aim of establishing a two-state solution. Unless and until these aims are achieved, we will inevitably see more death and destruction. Peace and stability in the region seem further away today than ever, but we must continue to do all we can to replace today’s despair with a more positive hope for the future.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their comments and for the tone of those comments. I think we all feel the weight of what has happened upon us. Many of us have met families of the hostages—I met Mandy Damari in your Lordships’ House just before the Conference Recess—and you can almost feel the weight of their dignity and their suffering; it is sort of physical and you wonder how on earth people can cope under those circumstances. I think the tone of both noble Lords reflected our understanding of the pain and trauma they are going through.

Noble Lords are also right to say that under any criteria, there is no justification at all for the attacks that took place on Israel on 7 October. It is hard to see how anybody, including the Supreme Leader of Iran, can seek to justify such comments. It must be understood that Hamas will have known that Israel would have to defend itself, and the horror that would be unleashed in the region as a result. It is deeply shocking. There is no route to peace of any kind—temporary, long-lasting or an eventual two-state solution—that does not involve international diplomacy. That is the only way forward to try to find a resolution to protect people in the region.

Both noble Lords made the point that what is happening in the region is played out in the streets of the UK. Up and down our country, people have been subject to attacks and abuse for being either Jewish or Muslim, and I think everybody in this House will totally and utterly condemn such abuse and attacks. The comments of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, about the tone of the debate that takes place, both in your Lordships’ House and in our communities, are very important. I pay tribute to those who have reached beyond their own communities and across the divide, understanding the problem that it is causing within their areas.

I turn to specific points raised by both noble Lords. They will realise that Hezbollah is a proscribed organisation and is treated as such. We all utterly condemn its actions: that is why it is proscribed. How can Israel trust Hezbollah or have trust in progress towards peace? It is precisely because there is no trust that international efforts are so important. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, made the point that the UK is but one voice and that working with partners across the world is the only way that any progress can be made. That is why the Prime Minister has had so many meetings with leaders across the region and others to try to build that coalition, to bring pressure to bear and to do what we can to bring about an initial cease- fire in Gaza but also to protect those in Lebanon.

I do not have the exact number of British nationals remaining in Lebanon. More than 500 have been brought out so far. There are still commercial flights, but about 500 have been brought out, plus the 430 on the chartered flights. We will continue to do that. We have been saying for over a year to those in Lebanon, as did the previous Government—the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, is nodding at me, because he recalls saying it—that they should return home and that we will facilitate and give support as best we can. Their safety is clearly a deep priority for us.

The noble Lord, Lord Newby, asked for details of our operations in support of Israel. I say to him that all defensive operations are in line with international law and always will be. He will understand that I will not give any further information than that, but I can give him that assurance.

The key point is, and both noble Lords expressed this succinctly and very sincerely, that we must work across nations to bring people together and be steadfast in our support for the security of Israel, for security in the region but also for the humanitarian aid that is so essential to civilians who are suffering and dying now. We have to work internationally to achieve that or no progress will be made. I am grateful for their support for the Statement.

[Lord Howard of Lympne (Con)]

My Lords, I have been to Kfar Aza kibbutz and seen for myself the dreadful, terrible devastation which occurred on October 7, and I have visited the town of Sderot both before and after October 7 and seen a terrible difference. The Statement referred to Emily Damari, the only British hostage remaining in Gaza, whose mother I had the privilege of meeting last week. Would the Leader tell us what specific action His Majesty’s Government are taking, through Qatar or other intermediaries, to try to secure her release? In view of the part played by Iran in fomenting violence across the region, and the remarks of the Supreme Leader to which my noble friend referred, will the Government reconsider their decision not to proscribe the IRGC?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

Clearly, Emily’s mother had the same effect on the noble Lord as she had on me when I met her. We must try to understand how she must feel, with not knowing. When I spoke to her, she had not heard from her daughter for some considerable time. Not knowing is almost worse than understanding what is happening. Some of the reports of Emily’s bravery are quite incredible; that will become evident and hopefully she can be returned home. Ongoing efforts using every means appropriate to ensure that Emily comes home to her family are being taken by the Government. That is an ongoing process.

The issue about the IRGC is under review. It is sanctioned and that will continue. The noble Lord will know that there is never ongoing reporting back or dialogue on these issues, but it is a matter under constant review. We will do everything we can to ensure that we take the appropriate action in that regard.

[The Lord Bishop of Oxford]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her very compassionate and clear Statement and the tone in which it was delivered. I also thank other noble Lords who have spoken and no doubt those who will speak about these terrible, terrible events and the effect they are having on our own communities.

On Sunday evening I was privileged to take part in the anniversary of the last day of relative peace, in a large community and interfaith vigil in Oxford, for Oxford and Oxfordshire. Despite terrible weather, well over 200 people came together, drawn from the Muslim, Jewish and Christian communities, as well as those from other faiths and those of no faith. We listened to our local council leaders, civic leaders from the county, the vice-chancellors of our two universities and other representatives of the community. It was an enormous encouragement and comfort to see the way in which different sections of the community were able to come together and make a stand for peace, in remembrance and lament for all that has been lost, and in a common commitment to community cohesion.

As other noble Lords have said already, this is a particular conflict that places almost unique strains on our own communities in the United Kingdom. Will the Minister say what the Government are doing and plan to do in the future to encourage this deeper and greater community cohesion, as these stresses no doubt continue in the year to come?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for his comments. Indeed, we had a vigil, or a meeting, in your Lordships’ House in a Committee Room yesterday, where Members of both Houses came together—those of all faiths and none. I pay tribute to those across the country who have organised such vigils, particularly, as the right reverend Prelate said, as it was very wet, rainy, cold and miserable when they were doing it. It is an expression of strength and solidarity and it shows that we can achieve that.

I know that this is one of the issues that my noble friend Lord Khan, the Faith Minister, is interested in: bringing faiths together not just in times of conflict but as a general understanding in our communities. In areas where faiths work together and churches reach out, community cohesion is stronger as a result. So we need to look beyond this conflict, as well. As important as it is now, it is also important that community cohesion through faith communities—involving those of all faiths and none—is an ongoing process. We should never lose sight of how important it is, and the contribution it can make to strengthening our communities.

[Lord Walney (CB)]

Do the Government share the deep alarm of so many in this country that on this weekend, the anniversary of the heinous attack on Jewish people in Israel, many felt emboldened to march through our capital with clear displays of support for Hezbollah, an organisation committed to the violent eradication of Israel? The Government—the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary and Ministers—showed commendable focus through the riots in combating the extremism we saw in our towns. Will they bring a similar commitment to root out this evil extremism in our communities?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right that Hezbollah is a proscribed organisation. Its views are abhorrent and there is no place for promoting the role or organisation of Hezbollah at all on the streets of London. The Home Secretary has made comments on that, making her views very clear and in a very strong way. People have a right to peaceful protest and we should always respect that—even when I sit in my office and can hear the amplified voices across the road as I work. That is peaceful protest, but when people stray beyond peaceful protest and support terrorism, that is a different matter.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, we all know that, sooner or later, the dreadful violence that has erupted in southern Israel, in Gaza and now in Lebanon will subside. There will then be an uneasy truce and, as sure as night follows day, the violence will occur again until the fundamental problems of the region are addressed. The most fundamental problem, surely, is that there cannot possibly be peace in this part of the Middle East until the Palestinians obtain what the Israelis achieved and love: a state of their own. Until the Palestinians can receive that support, including from this Government, I am afraid that the cycle of violence will just go on and on.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes an important point about everybody in the region feeling safe and secure. That is what the two-state solution is: a safe and secure Israel and a strong and viable state of Palestine. There is a lesson on this. At the beginning of his comments, the noble Lord made a really telling remark that, at some point—we want it to be sooner rather than later—violence will subside and we will move towards peace and negotiation. At no time can the countries involved in negotiation, and in trying to reach the two-state solution, take a step back and think, “It’s quietened down now, we can forget about it”. The point he makes is that we need constant vigilance to ensure that, until we can guarantee the security and safety of civilians across the region, we have to remain engaged. I take very seriously the points he made on that.

[Lord Swire (Con)]

For some years now, we have had a British military programme, with British military training teams training the Lebanese army extremely successfully. Does the Leader of the House include the remnants of those trainers, if we still have them in Lebanon, in her calls to come away from that country now? If they are still there, does she share my concern that they could be inadvertently drawn into this conflict?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I am not sighted on the issue of the trainers that the noble Lord referred to, but he will know that our military personnel will always act within international law, which is defensive. I will double-check the point about whether we have anyone in the region in that regard. I was looking hopefully at my noble friend the Minister of State for Defence, who will come back to the noble Lord and write to him with the details.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder if I might help the noble Baroness by suggesting some kind of solution that we have not discussed enough. I must thank her very much indeed for the wonderful way she made that Statement. I am also grateful for the feelings expressed around the House.

I have not spoken on this issue before, but I have numerous family members in Israel, including my brother’s family and nephews, many friends, PhD students and scientific connections who have helped us in my lab and have been there. There are also many Arabs and Palestinians who have worked in my lab in London and have been funded through various funds that we have raised for them in London, as well as PhD students whom I have been supporting in the West Bank and Gaza, so I have some reason to speak briefly.

I want to suggest to the noble Baroness one thing that has perhaps never really been understood. As Jews, we have been pointed out as different, as everybody knows. Over many generations and hundreds of years, Jews have felt eventually very lonely and extremely alone. There is no question that if you look at the Israeli mind now and speak to Israelis, they feel they are finally alone. Many attempts have been made on both sides to arrive at peace; since 1967, there have been so many attempts at political solutions. Israel has come, eventually, to the awful decision that the only solution for it is a military one.

The loneliness is massively increased by anti-Semitism; the noble Lord, Lord Walney, was absolutely right. Anti-Semitism is so widespread and really affects Israeli public opinion. We need to get public opinion in Israel much more understanding of how so many of us really feel. That, plus the irregular and inappropriate reporting in our news media, is something that we need to think about very clearly. Until that happens, it is very difficult to have better dialogue; with that, we might come to some conclusion where we could have better chances of peace in the future.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for the information about his experiences in his medical field. I hope the message that has gone out from this House and across the country is that Israel is not alone. The expressions that have been made, the international support and the discussions taking place are very clear that Israel has a right to defend itself. Both Houses, in Statements yesterday and today and throughout the conflict, have been clear that we stand shoulder to shoulder in ensuring that Israel has a right to defend itself. I hope that Israel and Jews across the country understand that they are not alone, but we want to ensure a peace throughout the region so that everybody, Arabs, Jews, Muslims, Christians, people of all faiths and none, can live together in peace—if not in harmony, at least in safety.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

I want to say quickly that we are taking questions, and I want to get as many noble Lords in as possible.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for the Statement and all noble Lords who have spoken. There is one important fact which I hope the noble Baroness can focus on. When the attack on Israel happened, there was a majority of Jews who were tragically killed by the abhorrent organisation that is Hamas—and now what we also see from Hezbollah. But let us be clear, as one Muslim leader said to me on my first visit to Israel after 7 October, that there were 26 young Muslim attendees at that very festival. Israel has a rich diversity; places such as Haifa and Jerusalem reflect the three great Abrahamic faiths.

My question is specific to the role of Qatar; I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, is sitting next to the noble Baroness. Qatar is investing a lot, and, as my noble friend Lord Howard has said, plays a crucial role in the release of hostages. Can the noble Baroness update us on the specifics of the peace agreements to bring about a ceasefire in Gaza? We were nearly there, just before the Lebanon escalation, and the United States was also very bullish in what are extremely challenging circumstances.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I think the whole House, even those of us who were delighted by the election result, would pay tribute to him for his work over many years and for the way that he kept the House updated— I thank him for that. Engagement with Qatar, which he is absolutely right to highlight, is ongoing and we are very grateful for its support. It is a friend in the region and that work continues.

The noble Lord’s point about the Muslims who were killed in the October attacks is profound. It illustrates how those who were victims were bringing people together. That is the future: young people, at a music festival, working across faiths and enjoying each other’s company. They paid a price for hatred. To get rid of that hatred—the right reverend Prelate commented on this as well—we have to go beyond the boundaries of our own faiths, not just in the UK but throughout the world, to bring people together. The point is sometimes lost, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for making it, that Muslims were also killed in those attacks. For the whole region, whatever someone’s faith is is irrelevant; the suffering is beyond any faith.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

Does the Leader agree that, at this time, it is of the greatest importance that we have an independent, impartial media that can provide analysis? That is needed more than ever. Does she share my great surprise that, as I was informed by the head of the BBC World Service, the BBC Arabic radio service in Lebanon has now been closed as a result of funding restrictions? That spectrum has been taken up by Russian state media. This is a time to support the BBC World Service and to expand, not reduce, its provision. I hope that the Leader will take this away for discussion with her colleagues.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

I am a great admirer and fan of the BBC World Service and the soft power that it has exercised across the world for many years has been great. It was a great shame that the World Service was rolled up into the last funding settlement that was undertaken for the BBC. We are concerned about that and looking at it. I do not make any commitments to the noble Lord, but we certainly share his concern. That the vacuum has been filled by a Russian player adds to the concern that I would have. I also agree with him that it is important to have independent voices who are respected in the region.

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister’s words are much appreciated, but does she agree with me that the hatred that has come about since 7 October, which has been widely commented on around the House, has to some extent been fed by the BBC? There have recently been two independent reports, one of which I co-signed, which pointed out in great detail mistakes and bias on the part of the BBC. There have been the most appalling statements on the BBC Arabic World Service by people who hate Israel. Does the Minister agree that it is time for an inquiry into the BBC’s coverage? For example, Jeremy Bowen casually reported that Israel had bombed a hospital. This soon turned out to be untrue, but that statement, which he never went back on, gave rise to more slaughter and hatred. It is time for an inquiry into the BBC’s impartiality on this issue.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

The noble Baroness will understand that I am not going to accede to her request for an inquiry, but I think that all news outlets have a duty and responsibility to the truth. One thing I have found difficult in the coverage of this conflict is its focus on the destruction and hurt that have happened; I would like to see some balance around the political efforts to reach a solution as well. That would help people to understand what the conflict is about. I think that many people watching the TV news are obviously horrified, upset and distraught by what they see, but there is no great understanding of the background to it and why things are happening. All news outlets have a duty and a responsibility to ensure that their reporting is accurate.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, what evidence can the noble Baroness point to that there is any desire on the part of the Iranian, Palestinian and other terrorist proxies for a two-state solution? Ever since Israel was founded, their determination has been to wipe it off the map. Israel has tried and wants to live in peace, alongside its neighbours. It was not occupying Gaza or Lebanon, but somehow all that seems to have been forgotten, while Hamas builds its terror infrastructure underneath the schools, mosques and hospitals of its own people, seemingly deliberately to place them in harm’s way, to attack Israel from them and attract Israel to retaliate. Israel does not wish to kill civilians; it wishes to kill the people who want to wipe it off the map. Can the noble Baroness tell the House what recognition there is that so much of the responsibility for the civilian deaths is on Hamas, which is the aggressor that chose this war, rather than Israel, which is fighting for its very existence?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

In some ways, the noble Baroness has emphasised the point I made a moment ago about people understanding the background of what has happened. It looks and feels at times as if a two-state solution will be impossible, but if we allow that to take hold, we will never strive or make those efforts to achieve some peace in the region. I cannot see any other way forward but diplomatic solutions. She makes the point about people understanding what is behind this; the very first question I answered today was on the attacks on 7 October, and it was because of those attacks that this wall of violence and terror has been unleashed, but there have been similar intentions for a very long time. As the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said, unless those intentions are dealt with and addressed, we will not see a lasting peace.

Patrick Finucane Murder

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Thursday 12th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, there is enough time for everyone who wishes to speak to do so. I call my noble friend Lady Ritchie first and then we will go back to the Cross Benches.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome my noble friend to the Front Bench and the decision of the Secretary of State to grant a public inquiry into the murder of Patrick Finucane, an incident I recall well. I also point out that all murders in Northern Ireland, carried out by paramilitaries or state forces, were totally wrong, inappropriate and unacceptable. I have two questions to ask the Minister. When will there be a repeal of the legacy legislation and a definite move towards inquests, investigations and inquiries to solve the problems and challenges faced by victims and survivors of the Troubles? Will the Government withdraw the application by the previous Secretary of State for a judicial review of the decision of the coroner in March this year into the case of Sean Brown, which was also mired in collusion?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, there is time for both noble Lords to speak. I suggest that we hear first from the former Secretary of State.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome my noble friend to the Front Bench. I am sure she will do a wonderful job as the spokesperson on Northern Ireland. When I was Secretary of State, I received the Cory report, which recommended four public inquiries. We agreed on three, but then deferred the Finucane inquiry for a bit longer because of prosecutions. Then, 20 years ago, as stated in the Statement, I made a commitment in the House of Commons to hold a public inquiry. For various reasons, that did not happen. So it is timely that that is happening now. I very much welcome this Statement and hope it will be the end of a very painful matter. I ask my noble friend, first, about the timescale for this—although she has touched on that—and, secondly, about the consultation that has been held with Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Northern Ireland Executive. It is extremely important that there is a great deal of their involvement in this, and also—it has been test-run by the noble Lord, Lord Rogan—with the Irish Government and the Government of the United States of America.

Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015 (Extension) Bill [HL]

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 10th September 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

That the Bill be now read a second time.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a rather straightforward Bill that does not seek to make any fundamental changes or reforms to the composition of your Lordships’ House. Its only effect is to extend by five years the arrangements in place for the appointment of Lords spiritual contained in the Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015. Like the 2015 Act, the Bill has been introduced at the request of the Church of England and I look forward to hearing today from the Convenor of the Lords spiritual, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby. I think all noble Lords will agree that we are grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans for the letter about the Bill that he sent to all Peers who are speaking today.

As your Lordships are probably well aware, the 26 bishops in your Lordships’ House are determined under a process set out in the Bishoprics Act 1878. Five seats are automatically allocated to the most reverend Primates the Archbishops of Canterbury and York and the right reverend Prelates the Bishops of London, Durham and Winchester. The remaining 21 seats are filled on the basis of seniority—that is, the length of tenure in post. As your Lordships also know, changes to allow women to become bishops were made in 2014. Because of the rules of seniority, we would have had to wait many years before these women would have been eligible to receive their Writs of Summons, become Lords spiritual and be welcomed into your Lordships’ House. As the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury pointed out in 2015, this would have created a situation whereby women were prominently involved in the Church leadership but unrepresented in your Lordships’ House.

While the pre-2015 rules of seniority would have eventually enabled female bishops to receive their summons to our seats, the process would have taken an unacceptably long time. To address this, and at the Church’s request, the House passed legislation in 2015 to fast-track female bishops to these Benches. Since its passage, the 2015 Act has helped to deliver, in a timelier fashion, the greater balance of voices that these Benches need. This has complemented the Church’s own efforts to diversify its leadership over the years, particularly since it agreed to the consecration of female bishops in 2014.

As Ministers, the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, and the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, spoke eloquently on the merits of the 2015 Act when the House debated it almost 10 years ago under the coalition Government. Since it was enacted, its value has been demonstrated. We have seen the benefits of the 2015 Act materialise by way of the six female bishops who have sat in your Lordships’ House earlier than they otherwise would have done. Within six months of the commencement of the 2015 Act, the House had the pleasure of welcoming the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester. She broke new ground in two important respects—by becoming the first female diocesan bishop and first female Lord spiritual. I welcome her presence and that of the other female bishops who have since joined this House. I am sure that your Lordships will agree that they have all made valuable contributions to the role of this House.

While significant progress has been made through legislation, there remain only six female bishops on the Lords spiritual Benches today. The 2015 Act is due to expire in 2025, so the five-year extension provided for in today’s Bill allows more time for the original legislation passed in 2015 to operate. The Bill means that if any of the 21 Lords spiritual seats allocated on the basis of seniority become vacant between now and 2030, they will be filled by the most senior eligible female bishop if any are available at that point. Without the Bill, the provisions of the 2015 Act would expire in May 2025.

Five years represents an appropriate length of time to allow the positive effects of the 2015 legislation to continue. It will enable a longer period in which to accelerate the appointments of female Lords spiritual, while recognising the progress that has been made by the Church so far. This will help to ensure that we continue to address an historic disadvantage: the barriers faced by women with respect to the Church and, by extension, membership of this House.

At Second Reading of the 2015 Act, the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury said that the 2010 Parliament would be

“the last Parliament where any Bench of either House is occupied solely by men”.”.—[Official Report, 12/2/15; col. 1366.]

I am glad to say that his prediction was correct. I look forward to today’s debate and I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. I loved the phrase about the shuffle to reform; we have become aware of that in many areas of life.

I take on board the comments that noble Lords across the House have made about the diversity of your Lordships’ House. I think we all welcome increased diversity, but diversity comes in a number of forms: it is about age, about gender, about class, about skills, about ethnicity, about background, about experience and about those of faith and those not of faith, who we welcome to bring different views to our debates.

I was interested in what was said about members of the Church of England speaking for certain faiths. I thought the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby made a particularly powerful speech, and I am grateful to her for that. She was clear that she does not speak in this House for the Church of England and that, as a representative of the Church of England, she is speaking with her experience for the nation, and she looks to represent a particular constituency. I have listened to the words from the Bishops’ Benches on many occasions, and I think we should be proud of the contribution they make.

This is a very narrowly focused Bill. The debate has stretched more widely than the content of the Bill, but that is not unusual in your Lordships’ House when we are discussing anything internal to the House of Lords; there is a tendency to have a wider debate. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, for her support for the Bill. She has heard quite significantly from the bishops themselves about why it is five years, and about the work they are undertaking. The Bill was brought forward at the request of the Church of England, and the point she makes is valid: show us the progress you are making. Other noble Lords made similar comments, and we heard their determination and commitment about wanting to see progress and why five years seems to be an appropriate time.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, for the historical context. She spoke about her friend Angela Berners-Wilson, who was the first woman Church of England priest to be ordained in 1994. I understand her pride. She will understand the pride on these Benches when the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, was ordained into the Church of England in 2019. It is important that we recognise, within your Lordships’ House, that we all have different faiths and values. I have to say that I take issue with the noble Lord, Lord Scriven: I do not think anyone is suggesting that those who have a religious faith have a monopoly on values, commitment or morality. I do not think that our bishops or those of other faiths in the House would suggest that. We all bring our values and our concept of morality to the debates we have, and I think it is right that we do so.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said, the onus of responsibility to make this work is on the Church of England, which is the established Church. We all welcome those who come into your Lordships’ House who are of a religious faith, or not of a religious faith, and the values they bring. To comment on other points that were made during the debate, I thought it was interesting that the noble Lord, Lord Birt, in talking about the diversity of society, used the phrase “undemocratic anomaly”. One thing we did not touch on was the retirement age of your Lordships’ House. In fact, the only Bench that has a retirement age for its members is the Bishops’ Bench, which has a retirement age of 70. We are getting ourselves into a tizz over 80—or 86 at the end of a Parliament—yet the Bishops’ Benches have quite smoothly moved towards that retirement age. I am sure that when that debate comes, and when we are consulting on that issue in this House, their Benches will have something to say on it. The noble Lord, Lord Murphy, made an interesting comment, as a Welsh Catholic, about how much he supports the Bill and values the contribution of those Benches.

The noble Earl, Lord Devon, raised the issue of diversity more generally. He has raised the issue of succession with me previously, in other meetings, and I have some sympathy. I have had an initial look, and it is quite complex. It is not just about membership of your Lordships’ House; it is a complex issue and not at all something we can deal with in the Bill, but I hear what he has to say and I know he spoke about it some time ago. I have to say to him that I do not think this House is comfortable with the fact that at the moment there are no women on the hereditary Peers register to come forward. We greatly miss the Countess of Mar, who made an enormous contribution, including making sure that new Members did not transgress the rules of the House. Those who did, as I found to my expense— I received a sharp tap on the back on one occasion—were reminded of exactly what the rules of debate are.

All noble Lords—perhaps with some exceptions—have been supportive of this piece of legislation. I note the two noble Lords who have more concerns. It is right that we respect the debate we have had and recognise that the Bill is a small step forward that allows the Church of England to continue its progress towards more women bishops. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby should take back to her colleagues how much support she has from Benches across the House who want to see more women bishops.

Those of us in political parties should not get too complacent about this. We have all had challenges about women’s representation in Parliament, in councils and, indeed, in your Lordships’ House. We should be proud that, since 2000, seven of the Leaders of this House from across the parties have been women and only four have been men. Sometimes progress happens without being noticed, but it is good that it happens.

I am grateful for noble Lords’ contributions. I think there are a number of comments that the right reverend Prelates will take on board. I hope the House will want the Bill to go forward—I get the sense that it will. It has been a privilege to be engaged in this debate. A number of issues around Lords reform have been on the agenda since I have been Leader, and I welcome hearing from noble Lords on a range of those issues. I am grateful to those who have already engaged with me in a very constructive way. This debate has been a privilege, and it is with pleasure that I beg to move.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.