Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 7th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Bill, and the collaboration and working manner of my noble friend the Minister. The Bill is about improving the safety of the public, as stated by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile.

I am well aware, coming from Northern Ireland and having been a former public representative for a long period, of the impact that terrorism had on our local communities and people, and of how it robbed families of their loved ones, livelihoods, homes and businesses and placed many restrictions on their lives as a result of the ensuing security measures. Thankfully, political dialogue became the prime order of the day. It showed that terrorism had failed and that compromise and the Good Friday agreement succeeded. That is the issue that we have to address—the need for compromise and political development—but in many cases this new form of terrorism may not lend itself to political dialogue.

Although I support the Bill, I realise that there are some challenges, and I have some questions for my noble friend the Minister about its implementation. I am very much in favour of the concept of the protection of premises from terrorism, considering what happened in London in March 2017, when I was a Member in the other place and we were all in lockdown in the Chamber, what happened on London Bridge and what happened at the Manchester Arena in June 2017. In that regard, I pay tribute to Figen Murray and the Martyn’s Law campaign team, who have demonstrated such tenacity, fervour, diligence and determination in the face of tragedy and adversity.

However, I do not want any additional financial burdens to be placed on the owners of premises to protect their properties and restrict their civil liberties without a clear indication of adequate financial and other support measures being put in place. What assistance, including the provision of finance, will be provided to the owners of premises to ensure full protection from the ravages of terrorism? At the end of the day, there must be proportionate risk.

I have received representations from the Heritage Railway Association. In this, I am minded of my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester, who chairs the APPG for Heritage Rail; I know that similar representations have been made to that group. I have a heritage railway in my town of Downpatrick, and its members feel that the Bill’s provisions and its application to heritage railways are not realistic or proportionate to the risk. Many heritage railways are staffed by volunteers who operate on a part-time basis. I have also received representations from the insurance industry and from Martyn’s Law, which support this legislation and want it to move forward, but I would like my noble friend the Minister to favourably consider the position of heritage railways. The Heritage Railway Association believes that the legislation is premises-based, and its guiding principle is to require different levels of terrorism protection by reference to capacity in terms of the premises. For the purposes of the Bill, heritage railways and tramways are treated like hospitality and entertainment venues, including all parts of a railway line from end to end.

I understand that a Minister wrote a letter to the Heritage Railway Association, dated 23 December, stating that a railway line itself and passengers on a train are excluded from the Bill’s scope—I understand from his gesticulation that it was my noble friend the Minister on the Front Bench. I hope and believe that that exclusion may help to reduce the likely impact on some heritage railways, but I feel it needs to be clearly stated in the Bill. As it stands, the legislation would effectively place many heritage railways in the higher-capacity category, adding significant and costly compliance burdens. What assurances can my noble friend the Minister provide about this issue to assuage the fears of the volunteers in the heritage railway movement, and could they be placed in the Bill?

It is also felt that organisations including heritage, cultural and tourism attractions that rely on volunteers will face higher training costs or, if volunteers choose not to take on responsibilities required under the Bill, those organisations may be faced with the costs of engaging additional personnel to meet compliance requirements. What provision will be made for the training of volunteers and the owners of heritage and tourism premises? This factor was raised in a representation received today from the Institution of Occupational Safety and Health’s personnel.

The Heritage Railway Association feels that the Bill as drafted perhaps does not address the realities of dealing with those burdens. The threshold for eligibility is too low and that could make some businesses, particularly those in the tourism and cultural sector, unviable. Perhaps the Minister could advise whether effective consideration will now be given to their inclusion on the excluded list.

Coming from Northern Ireland, I suppose there is a fear about the provisions in the Bill extending there. I would like the Minister to clarify that. Why are the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive not included, since this issue was discussed by the Assembly commission? It has overall responsibility for the management of the Assembly and for the Parliament buildings at Stormont, so what is the issue there?

Do the provisions extend to tourism and heritage attractions? What additional assistance will be provided to the owners of premises? Will small premises be excluded, and what are the size thresholds for eligibility for businesses to comply with this legislation?

Finally, considering the political and febrile history of Northern Ireland, what discussions have taken place with the Northern Ireland Executive and the Justice Minister regarding the implications of this legislation? With the need for additional investment in police resources in Northern Ireland, what discussions have taken place with the chief constable regarding the implications and consequences of implementing the legislation, including capacity levels for enforcement?

In conclusion, I support the thrust of the Bill. I support it in its entirety because, undoubtedly, terrorism in any form is a divisive, cancerous menace in our society, and that is irrespective of where it comes from.

Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (Search, Seizure and Detention of Property: Code of Practice) (Northern Ireland) Order 2024

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Monday 2nd December 2024 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

This debate relates to another statutory instrument that was debated in Committee on 11 November. I therefore will not go into too much detail on this instrument’s context but will briefly remind the Committee that it relates to the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023. This Act contained a wide range of reforms to reduce economic crime and increase transparency over corporate entities conducting business in the United Kingdom. This included reforms to enable targeted information sharing to tackle money laundering and remove reporting burdens on business. Additionally, the Act introduced new intelligence-gathering powers for law enforcement and reform of outdated criminal corporate liability laws.

The legislation also introduced reforms to keep pace with the use of emerging technologies to launder money and commit economic crime, including a new regime to tackle the use of criminal or terrorist crypto assets. The measure also introduced new search, seizure and detention powers when crypto assets are used illegally or for terrorist purposes. The legislation aims to remove criminal gains and disrupt the ability to use emerging technologies for illicit purposes.

I see a heavy Northern Ireland contingent here—it is like the old days, and I am very pleased to see colleagues here today. They will be particularly pleased to know that this debate relates to the order that came into force in Northern Ireland, as well as England and Wales. As of the end of October, across the United Kingdom as a whole the new powers have been exercised in over 90 cases.

I will not cover the content of the powers, as they were debated extensively by both Houses during the passage of the Bill, but will outline briefly the purpose of the instrument, which is to establish a code of practice. The code of practice being brought into operation by this statutory instrument is the search, seizure and detention of property code for Northern Ireland. Codes of practice determine and clarify the circumstances in which powers may be exercised to ensure that they are applied consistently and proportionately. This is vital, given the broad range of law enforcement agencies to which the powers can apply. The guidance on the exercise of the powers in the code in this order sets out clearly, I hope, the required powers to safeguard against improper use.

The search, seizure and detention code is made by the Home Secretary to guide the exercise of search and seizure powers in the context of criminal confiscation investigations for specified officers who operate in Northern Ireland. The order sets out the officers and the circumstances, and it gives strong guidance on reserved powers.

This draft instrument is required to complete the cycle that we started with the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023. It will ensure that all the necessary legislation is in place and that law enforcement can operate the powers proportionately and in accordance with the aim of the legislation. I expect and hope to get some questions from colleagues across the Committee, but I hope that that is a reasonably clear outline of the order and its purpose. I commend the statutory instrument to the Committee.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare my registered interest as a member of your Lordships’ Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, in which we considered this SI in some detail. I welcome my noble friend to the Front Bench. We well recall him serving as a Minister in Northern Ireland; in fact, I succeeded him in the Department for Social Development and I remember the handover meeting very well. The following day, he went off to be a Minister of State here.

I welcome this statutory instrument. It is important that we move to a normal society in Northern Ireland, that the proceeds of crime are adequately addressed and that people refrain from crime in Northern Ireland, where we have the association of crime with paramilitarism. They are two scourges in our society that must be eliminated.

I have certain questions for my noble friend. While this is a reserved matter, the code is to be published by the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland. When will it publish the code, and will it be by way of a statement in the Assembly? Maybe there has already been one. Is an assessment available of the success of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 in Northern Ireland? I realise that will require a detailed answer, so I would be content if my noble friend could provide one in writing. I note that there is no impact assessment; can he indicate why? Will the police resourcing of the implementation of the code come out of the Northern Ireland block grant? There is a little difficulty there in that policing resources in Northern Ireland, in both funding and people power, are gravely overstretched.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, there is obviously a conspiracy here: the people running the Football Governance Bill have obviously decided to keep us all occupied here so that we are not dealing with them. Perhaps we should go into the Chamber later and see if we can make a contribution.

There are two sides to this: the devolved issue and the national issue. I want to explore the interface between the two and ask whether, as the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, mentioned, there is a resource implication. In other words, are any additional resources required? With crypto assets and so on, we are dealing with very sophisticated people who have access to complicated software and things like that. Are we capable of dealing with that as quickly as we can?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Earl for his support for the order, and I will return to his questions in due course. I am also grateful for the contributions from the noble Lords, Lord Empey, Lord Hay, Lord Browne, Lord Morrow and Lord McCrea, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. It feels like old times. I have not been a Minister in Northern Ireland since 2007. I had two fabulous years there, and it is good to see that scrutiny of government continues as it did when I was in Northern Ireland previously. It was good to hear the points that were raised.

I remind colleagues and noble Lords that the purpose of this order is to provide a code of practice to ensure that guidance is given, on a reserve basis, to officers who exercise the powers under the Act, in order to give proper accountability for the use of those powers by those officers. Colleagues and noble Lords will know that that includes scope on the search and seizure powers and limitations on the exercise of powers. It also provides for seeking senior officer approval and it gives reasonable grounds for suspicion, refusal of prior approval, limitation on the exercise of powers by immigration officers and a whole series of measures that are designed, in that code, to put a framework around the operation of the powers under the Act.

I will answer noble Lords’ points in a different order, but I hope we will cover them all. The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, talked about the date of implementation and the discussion with the Northern Ireland Assembly, as well as the impact assessment and the impact of the Act. The Northern Ireland codes came into operation on 17 July 2024. Those codes have been published and are available. Northern Ireland ran a public consultation on its code and any citizen or organisation in Northern Ireland was able to comment upon this code. The codes in Northern Ireland have been approved by the Northern Ireland Assembly on a cross-party basis.

The noble Baroness mentioned the impact of the Act. From April 2014 to the end of October, 90 cases have been exercised with this new power. Those figures are for Northern Ireland, England and Wales. I am not able today to give her and others a breakdown of the particular usage in Northern Ireland, as opposed to England and Wales, but the powers have been used 90 times. Noting what the noble Earl and other colleagues said, I say that the purpose of this order is to ensure that we take action against people who wish to use cryptocurrency for illicit criminal purposes. The code we are discussing is about putting in place the framework so that the powers are not open to challenge, so that there is clarity about how they are used and so that, when they are used, individuals have the ability to challenge them—but there is a legal back-up to ensure that, when bad actors are doing bad things, they cannot wriggle out of those bad things by saying that those powers were used improperly. That is the purpose of this code. I hope that answers the points made by the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Browne, and others, but, if not, please feel free to intervene. Again, these powers were subject to wide discussion and consultation generally.

The noble Lord, Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown, particularly raised what happens to the assets when seized. I am pleased to tell him that, when a court has been satisfied that the crypto assets are the proceeds of crime or are terrorist crypto assets, the asset holder—whoever that may be—will be permanently deprived of those assets. They will be sold and the proceeds will go into supporting the compensation of victims—that is an important aspect, to make sure that victims are at the heart of this—or they could be retained by the state and reinvested into tackling economic crime and countering terrorism downstream.

We want to stop the type of activity that is taking place. Seizing assets means that people are still trying to get some assets through. Hopefully, we can get to a position where this is a deterrent as well and stops people wishing to act with these assets. But, in the event that they do, that they are convicted and that there is an asset recovery regime in place, those assets will be used for the wider community at home.

A number of noble Lords asked about the impact assessment. We produced an impact assessment on the legislation, which was assessed and went through a number of routines—including on 11 November in this Room—and we finalised it very recently. I point out to the noble Earl and others that there is cross-party support for the legislation. It would have possibly gone through earlier had we not had the great event of the general election in July, which has propelled me from a quieter life back here. It also meant we had some delay in our cross-party discussions and agreements on the legislation.

We did not have a specific impact assessment on the powers in the code, but I hope they have been established in the way they have so that they can be operated and safeguarded. There was a consultation, which has come forward, although there was no impact assessment.

Another point noble Lords mentioned is the confiscation regime, which is largely for the Northern Ireland Assembly and devolved matters. I am repeating myself, but it is important to reflect on what we are discussing: the code is about how UK officials in immigration, Border Force or other named organisations in the code are held to account by a standard set by this House, the House of Commons and the UK Government on those devolved areas.

I think the points the noble Earl mentioned have been covered; if not, I am happy to reflect on Hansard in due course and any points that have been made by noble Lords and try to refer back to them. However, I think and hope there is a co-terminosity of agreement between us in this House, from His Majesty’s Official Opposition through to the Ulster Unionist Party, the Democratic Unionist Party and the SDLP in Northern Ireland.

We are trying to ensure that crypto assets under this legislation are deterred and, if they are found to be used for criminal activity, seized. There is a code of practice that monitors the use of officers for seizing those assets. If those assets are seized for criminal purposes, they are wound back into the community in a positive way. That sends a signal to both sides of the border in Northern Ireland in relation to the Administrations there that the use of crypto assets is not an acceptable way of financing criminal activity or terrorism.

I will check this outside of the Committee, but to answer the noble Lord, Lord Hay, there has not been any formal consultation with the Irish Government on these powers because they are for the Northern Ireland Assembly, under the joint leadership of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, the Justice Minister and the Home Office, under the leadership of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. However, I believe they are not areas that would cause concern as they are entirely matters for within the confines of the United Kingdom, with different responsibilities between the two different agencies.

With that, I hope the Committee can accept the order. If I missed any points, I will reflect on Hansard and write. If anybody wishes to intervene on any point I have not made, please do so now. I can see my noble friend Lady Ritchie ready to bungee jump into action, so I will let her intervene.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for his very detailed answers. Could he indicate whether any discussions have taken place with the Minister and the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland? If not, will they take place on the implementation of the code and this SI?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

As the Minister responsible for this order, I have not had any discussion with Naomi Long or the Department of Justice on these matters, but I hope it will give some confidence to my noble friend to know that it is my intention to meet our counterparts in Northern Ireland. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary has, I believe, already met the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, and I intend to do the same. I have a potential visit to Northern Ireland planned for the new year to discuss areas of mutual co-operation. I will make sure that this issue is raised as one of many items on the agenda of any future meeting in January. With that, I commend this order to the Committee.

Istanbul Convention: Article 59

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Government have a very strong strategy for a mission against violence against women and girls. There are a number of points in that plan but one of its key elements is how we can raise education in schools, particularly for young males and against some role models that now appear on social media and elsewhere. It is an extremely important question that we are trying to evaluate and take forward shortly as part of the plan to halve violence against women and girls. I hope that the noble Baroness can then comment on it and help to support the Government in implementing it.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, will my noble friend take steps to talk to the Ministers for Justice in the devolved nations and regions—particularly Northern Ireland, where there have been growing levels of femicide? These have been particularly marked in the last few weeks, when a number of young ladies have been murdered and other women are now afraid to walk the streets. In that regard, will my noble friend talk to the appropriate Ministers in the devolved nations and regions about mitigation measures to safeguard women in the home and the wider environment?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It should be a fundamental right of women to walk the streets free of fear and free of potential abuse or violence of the seriousness of murder, which my noble friend mentioned. We are discussing very closely with the devolved Administrations how we can resolve the problem and meet the challenge that the Government have set of halving violence against women and girls. The Minister for Safeguarding and Violence Against Women and Girls, Jess Phillips, will meet the Northern Ireland Ministers and, while respecting their devolved role, will encourage them to ensure that we tackle this issue on a joint basis.

EU Settlement Scheme

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Earl for bringing that question forward. The first duty of the Home Office is to keep our citizens safe and to make sure that those who have criminal activity are punished by being sent to prison or, in this case, potentially by deportation. It is very important that we reflect on that. A large portion of the 9% of refusals are individuals who have a record of criminal behaviour and therefore have been refused under the settled status scheme. We will monitor that ongoing situation, and I assure the noble Earl that criminality has no place within the EU settled status scheme.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

We have plenty of time. We will have the noble Baroness first and then the noble Lord.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, the previous Government issued EU settlement scheme status to people yet later denied that they had any rights under the withdrawal agreement. Will my noble friend the Minister provide an assurance today that the Government will ensure that everyone with status under the EU settlement scheme is a beneficiary of the withdrawal agreement?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I can give my noble friend that assurance with a firm yes.