Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, we appear to have lost the connection to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, so I suggest that we adjourn for five minutes.

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[Baroness Thornton (Lab) [V]]

I thought these amendments were part of the group that was passed on Tuesday?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Baroness is correct that Amendment 27 is consequential to an amendment agreed on day 1 of Report, so she may wish to move it.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab) [V]]

I think Amendment 26 is similar, possibly. We may need some guidance from the clerk. Was Amendment 26 also related to the group of amendments that were agreed on Tuesday? I apologise; it is always difficult to do these things when you are not actually in the Chamber.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My understanding is that Amendment 26 is also consequential to amendments passed on day 1 of Report, so we may wish to ask the noble Lord, Lord Patel, whether he wishes to move his amendment, which is consequential to previous amendments agreed.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab) [V]]

That is what I thought

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord may wish to know that the amendment is consequential on an amendment passed earlier on Report, so he or a fellow signatory may wish to move it.

Amendment 63

Moved by

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[Baroness Thornton (Lab) [V]]

The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, is quite right: two of our health big thinkers have laid out the issues here. My noble friend Lord Hunt gave a wonderful introduction to Amendment 66, which covered the reasons why it is important and what it will do. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, took us on a journey through how health inequalities can be addressed. The point, and the reason the amendment is on the Marshalled List today, is that it does not always work like that. Implementation is key. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, said, requiring NICE to support NHS access to new medicines and medical devices seems kind of obvious. The challenge for the Minister here is how to use this legislation and this discussion to make what we think is obvious work better.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I know the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath has a long-term interest in and commitment to the work of NICE and, as such, will know that NICE’s remit is set out in other legislation. I do not intend to rehearse the arguments on why we do not see that as strictly for this Bill. Instead, I hope to provide some reassurance on the issues he raises with his amendment.

The noble Lord will be aware that NICE’s methods and processes for assessing the cost-effectiveness of medical technologies are internationally respected and have been developed over almost 20 years through periodic review, including extensive engagement with stakeholders, and the latest iteration of that process of periodic review of its methods is ongoing. NICE finished the first phase of its consultation on the case for change to its methods on 18 December 2020. There will be a second consultation on the case for change to its processes in the spring. The result of those will inform the final consultation on the updated methods manual in summer 2021. I hope that the noble Lord is reassured by the consultative nature of that process in considering the issues he raised.

Subsection (1)(a) of the new clause proposed in his amendment would require NICE to address the implications of health inequalities when assessing the cost effectiveness of medicines and medical devices. Subsection (1)(b) would require NICE to accept a greater degree of uncertainty and risk in recommending their use. I reassure the noble Lord that NICE is already considering both of those as part of its review, and they were both consulted on as part of the consultation on the case for change that ran from 6 November to 18 December 2020.

In that consultation, NICE noted that there may be a case for a modifier that considers health inequalities. However, further work is needed to explore how this could be defined and implemented in a health technology evaluation, and under which circumstances. This will be done in NICE’s second consultation running from February to March. Such a modifier could consider the types and sources of inequality, as well as how a modifier should be applied—qualitative or quantitative. It could also consider whether such a modifier covers technologies that directly reduce inequalities—for example, by specifically targeting or providing additional benefits for a disadvantaged group; or whether indirect effects might also be considered—for example, if a technology has uniform benefits across groups, but the condition disproportionally affects a disadvantaged group. At this stage, it is not clear that there is sufficient evidence for a health inequalities modifier, but it is being explored, and will be explored further in the second stage.

I hope that level of detail on the consideration that NICE is undertaking helps to reassure the noble Lord, but of course it would not be appropriate to pre-empt that review, and we want to encourage all stakeholders to respond to it.

In addition, I remind the noble Lord that a requirement to have regard to reducing health inequalities is already imposed on NICE under Section 1C of the National Health Service Act 2006. This applies to NICE as a non-departmental public body of the Department of Health and Social Care.

Proposed new subsection 1(c) would require NICE to have regard to the need

“to ensure patients with rare diseases have access to medicines and medical devices”.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, noted some concern during Grand Committee as to why NICE did not propose a rarity modifier in its methods review. A rarity modifier was considered by NICE prior to publication of the consultation document. However, stakeholders noted that rare diseases would be covered by the proposed severity modifier, which more accurately reflects society’s values. Although there is of course overlap between severity and rarity, not all rare conditions are severe and some severe conditions are more common. Of course, the consultation was an opportunity for all stakeholders to express their views on this point. As noted previously, NICE is also consulting on changes, such as a more accepting attitude towards uncertainty in some situations, which should benefit medicines for rare diseases.

Where there is uncertain evidence relating to a medical technology—I appreciate this can be a challenge for rare diseases—NICE and NHSE&I have developed managed access agreements. NICE has already recommended six topics for use subject to a managed access agreement outside of cancer. NHSE&I continues to use its sophisticated commercial capabilities to negotiate deals with industry that enable patients to access the most innovative new medicines and ensure that the NHS gets good value.

Proposed new subsection 1(d) would require NICE to have regard to supporting

“the use of curative therapies involving medicines and medical devices.”

The word “curative” should be used with caution, as there is no standard definition of what might be meant by it. For example, in some cases it may mean a significant amelioration in symptoms, in others that the treatment pathway is different or more tolerable.

While I appreciate that recently launched advanced therapy medicinal products hold great promise by targeting the specific cell or genetic defect, the data on long-term effectiveness is often immature at the time of marketing approval. Further, we need flexibility to respond quickly and effectively to developments in life sciences. We want to avert a situation whereby an effective therapy is not guaranteed funding because it did not meet the legal definition of a “curative therapy”. However, I think that the noble Lord was more trying to get at our support for some of these innovative approaches. Again, this is being looked at in the review of NICE’s methods.

NICE’s working group has explored whether there is a case for changing the approach to discounting, which the noble Lord asked about, in particular the impact on technologies with long-term benefits such as one-time gene therapies. This is a complex area that needs to take into account the policy-level need to support particular types of technologies or circumstances, the limitations of the current criteria for non-reference case discounting, and the effects and any accompanying policy and affordability challenges of any change. This will be covered by the second stage of the NICE methods review. Again, while we would not want to pre-empt that review, all stakeholders are encouraged to respond to it.

Briefly, proposed new subsection (2) would require the Secretary of State to lay a report and impact assessment before both Houses of Parliament, setting out how NICE has implemented its duty under proposed new subsection (1). As I said in Grand Committee, NICE will publish its revised methods and process manual, including its impact assessment, on its website for all to access, including parliamentarians, once the process has been completed. That is the correct forum.

I will briefly address Amendment 46 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, which touches on similar issues—the importance of access to medical technologies, the future medical devices regulatory regime, and the critical nature of medical device safety. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness’s work through her engagement with Ministers and our officials in developing government Amendment 45, which provides greater clarity on the types of activity we would intend to encourage through appropriate regulation. That includes, in respect of medical devices, carrying out research, developing medical devices, or manufacturing and supplying medical devices.

The Government support the agenda for early access to medical devices for NHS patients, as demonstrated through other mechanisms such as the rapid uptake products programme, managed by Accelerated Access Collaborative, and the medtech funding mandate, due to launch in April.

The second stated purpose of the noble Baroness’s amendment—to allow monitoring of the safety and efficacy of medical devices in real-time use—is already achieved by regulations that may be made under Clause 15(1)(i) and (j), so the mechanism to deliver this is already in place. In addition, Clause 18 empowers the Secretary of State to make regulations for the establishment of a medical device information system by NHS Digital, which will support the monitoring of patient outcomes and patient safety.

The noble Baroness also asked about the timeframe for future devices regulation made under the Bill. I assure her we will consult on this issue this year.

I hope the reassurances I have provided, here and during Committee, are of comfort to noble Lords and that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, feels able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I wanted to stimulate a debate on the NICE review and it certainly succeeded, because we had a very high-quality debate. I am very grateful to the Minister for what was a comprehensive and encouraging response, in a number of ways.

I will start with the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, because she made a powerful speech and argued very convincingly for the speeding up of approval processes, alongside speeding up the introduction to the National Health Service of proven, innovative new medicines and treatments. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, asked about patient safety, but my amendment and, I believe, that of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, would do nothing to undermine patient safety. In the first place, the Minister has already tabled an amendment to Clause 1, which we debated on the first day of Report, which gives priority to considerations of patient safety. It is clear from the explanation given for Amendment 46 from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that her proposals for a preliminary licence would allow for monitoring of safety and efficacy in real time. That could be a real bonus indeed.

I thought that the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, asked the fundamental question: why are we so slow to introduce new medicines and devices? Why are we behind so many other developed countries?

The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, gave a very thoughtful contribution. He is absolutely right to argue that we need more support for innovative medicine. The tragedy is this. We have the excellent VPAS agreement whereby, essentially, industry accepts that if the cost of medicines goes above a certain agreed level it will pay a rebate back to the Government, or ideally the National Health Service. If this worked properly the resource going back would be used for innovation, but for reasons that I have never quite understood the money does not seem to go back directly in an identifiable form to the NHS. We have the bizarre situation where, locally, the NHS worries about its drug costs. When it goes above a certain level there is a rebate, but unfortunately that rebate does not seem to find its way back in a tangible, transparent form, to the NHS. We have not created out of the agreement the kind of win-win situation that surely was envisaged when the previous voluntary agreement was first developed.

The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, mentioned one of the big issues: the need for NICE and NHS England to work together. I do not get the impression that they do work together that well, because NHS England regards most innovation as costly and therefore tries to dampen it down. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lansley: we need a much better partnership where we build in value for innovation and dealing with inequalities—one where NHS England would actually be on board.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, and my noble friend Lady Thornton talked about this being a big-picture debate. Of course, this is not something that can be solved by an amendment to a medicines Bill, but Parliament ought to debate these important issues and, at the very least, raise some issues that the review should undertake to address.

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[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the amendments in this group relate to reporting requirements and consultation. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has just put the political case very clearly; the noble Lord, Lord Patel, looked at the technical and regulatory issues; I will look at the practical issues around health services on the island of Ireland.

Amendment 69 from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, would require the Secretary of State to report on regulatory divergence between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Can the Minister tell us when the first report would be published, whether the Republic would be part of this consultation, and if not, why not? The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and I tabled this amendment to require the relevant authority to consult with patients and healthcare and industry stakeholders when preparing a report under Clause 44.

Divergence is inevitable. The situation for healthcare on the island of Ireland could become extremely complicated. In the past, patients have travelled north or south to receive treatment wherever the appropriate treatment is available. Will citizens from Northern Ireland and the Republic have to use the new GHIC, or do the Government have an agreement with the Republic so that business as usual will be the new norm—no change?

Government Amendments 75 to 77 and 79 to 85 extend the reporting requirements under Clause 44 so that they apply to regulations made by a Northern Ireland department and in respect of regulations under Clause 18. However, we cannot ignore the Republic when we talk about health in Ireland.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, we now turn to the way in which reports are prepared and made on the exercise of the regulatory-making powers in the Bill.

Amendment 69 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, would make changes to the existing requirement to report, introduced in Grand Committee. It proposes that an additional report be made by the Secretary of State to Parliament, this time on regulatory divergence with Northern Ireland introduced as a consequence of future regulations. I understand the noble Baroness’s intent. I heard the concerns raised in Grand Committee about the potential impact of regulatory divergence. The Government take that seriously. However, I will explain why this amendment is not necessary to address it.

As a reminder, the amendments made in Grand Committee provided for a reporting obligation on the operation of regulations made by the Secretary of State under Clauses 1(1), 9(1) and 14(1)—one that was both forward- and backward-looking. Those reports must include any concerns raised or proposals for change made by anyone consulted by the Secretary of State in the preparation of the report, and the response to these. It will necessarily draw Parliament’s attention to regulations that have been made.

Parts 1 and 2 of the Bill relating to human and veterinary medicines are matters transferred to Northern Ireland. As such, legislative consent was secured for the Bill earlier in its passage, but as amendments were made during Grand Committee, further legislative consent was sought. At Northern Ireland’s request, government Amendments 75, 76, 79, 80, 81, 82 and 85 in this group replicate the existing reporting obligation for Northern Ireland. This means there will be a report laid in Parliament every two years on what new regulations have been made and any plans to make further related regulations. A separate report will be laid before Northern Ireland. Between our report and the report laid before the Northern Ireland Assembly, any areas of regulatory divergence between the UK and Northern Ireland regulatory regimes will be made clear. Therefore, it would be duplicative to require the Secretary of State to lay additional reports specifically on regulatory divergence for human and veterinary medicines and medical devices.

In addition, where there are concerns about the implementation of the protocol and its impact on patients and animals in Northern Ireland, there are formal channels in place. Officials meet regularly in the Ireland/Northern Ireland Specialised Committee. The Specialised Committee reports to the Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee and provides advice on decisions to be taken by the Joint Committee under the protocol.

Before the end of the transition period, we raised with the EU through its specialised committee the issue of the falsified medicines directive and regulatory importation requirements for medicines moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland after 1 January. We agreed with the EU a pragmatic one-year, time-limited approach to implementing these regulations that ensures no disruption to the flow of medicines to Northern Ireland. I say this to reassure noble Lords as to the effectiveness of those mechanisms under the protocol.

Noble Lords made a number of comments on the issue of regulatory divergence and I thought I would dwell on it briefly. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, gave a good description of future provisions regulating devices between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. He is wrong to say that the Bill lays out Northern Ireland separately because of this. It does so because medicines and veterinary medicines in Northern Ireland are the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Assembly and are therefore devolved. However, divergence may be an issue for the future, not least because the EU may change its own regulatory regime under the protocol that Northern Ireland will follow, and the UK may make changes here as well.

To reassure noble Lords, we have agreed a standstill period of two years for medicines and veterinary medicines and two and a half years for devices, during which we will continue to recognise EU regulations in these areas. This means that there is time for adequate consultation on regulations made under this Bill, for consultation on any future changes and for these mechanisms to operate properly. Divergence may be a matter for the future, but we have reporting to Parliament and public consultations on any regulations made under this Bill to address those questions.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked how we ended up here. I think that question is slightly wider than the purview of this Bill. I have quite a lot of lived experience of how we ended up here and I do not intend to recount that now.

I hope the amendments I have referred to in the name of my noble friend Lord Bethell, coupled with these other, existing arrangements, make the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness unnecessary.

Government Amendments 77, 83 and 84, also in the name of my noble friend, are made in the same light of expanding reporting obligations. In the interests of transparency and scrutiny, amendments have been made to extend the obligation to include regulations made under Clause 18—the regulation-making power in relation to the medical devices information system. We have made this change to make clear our absolute commitment to transparency, to giving Parliament continued visibility, to understanding the assessment made of any proposals or concerns raised as to how the regulations have been working, and to ensure that the regulation-making powers specifically containing provisions that may ensure or affect device safety and post-market surveillance are treated equally.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, again seeks to test us on the preparation of the reports with Amendment 78, which would add a list of stakeholders to be consulted under the obligation. Again, this is unnecessary. If her concern is that the stakeholders listed may be ignored, I reassure her that the reports must summarise concerns raised, or proposals for change made, in relation to regulations enforced during the reporting period. That information will come from engagement with relevant stakeholders. Therefore, I do not think it necessary or proportionate to add a list of specific stakeholders to be consulted for each report, which will be a summary of public consultation that will already have been responded to.

I must say to the noble Baronesses, Lady Jolly and Lady Wheeler, that the Government will not return to this issue at Third Reading, so if they wish to press it, now is the moment. However, with the number of avenues already available, I hope that they are reassured that their amendment is not needed and will not wish to press it.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her response. I shall not go into details now, but we know that there will be significant issues of regulatory divergence, as the noble Lord, Lord Patel, my noble friend Lord Hunt and the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, have stressed. We know that it is an issue about which we will have to be very watchful. In the circumstances we currently face, an annual report would have aided the process of working through the issues and encouraged understanding of the plans to address them and the progress being made.

On Amendment 78, the Minister is obviously not going to oblige me with a tidying-up amendment at Third Reading to underline the importance of the patient voice. I think that is a mistake; it would have been helpful. However, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 69.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 12th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

I thank the noble Lord; that is a temptation to be eagerly accepted. I was referring back to what the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, said in Committee and the example in Sweden of Stockholm county council, which grades medicines on their environmental effects. Doctors can choose to prescribe a drug that is less harmful in relation to the environment where that option exists.

We have also had the 2014 report by UK Water Industry Research, which found that in most of the 160 sewage treatment works studied, several common drugs were present in the final effluent in concentrations high enough to potentially affect ecosystems. The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, referred just now to the amount of pharmaceutical effluence entering waterways, and according to a 2018 study by the Delft Institute for Water Education, that could increase by two-thirds before mid-century.

In Committee, my noble friend Lady Wheeler referred to the Environment Agency also having found examples of contaminated hospital waste being illegally exported to developing countries such as Malaysia for disposal. What steps are we taking to prevent the illegal export of such waste and ensure that we dispose of our own waste in this country? There are also concerns about the use of incinerators for hospital waste and the health impacts on those living nearby. We must ask whether the Government are doing enough to ensure that chemists and GPs’ surgeries provide a secure depository for unused medicines, so that they do not contaminate the water supply by being washed down the sink or ending up in landfill.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, said today that the Government’s approach has been to say that legislation is already on the statute book regarding the impact on the environment more broadly, including legislation to address the impact of producing and disposing of manufactured goods such as medical devices. But there is a persuasive argument that we should go further and that it is appropriate that in this Bill on medicines and medical devices there should be a way of ensuring that the environmental impact is not a damaging one. I hope that the Minister can respond with a positive reflection that this is an area that needs further exploration.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, when considering Amendment 7, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, I draw the attention of noble Lords to our earlier discussion on the government amendments to this clause, introducing the requirement that safeguarding public health is the overarching objective when making regulations. The clause sets out a number of important factors that the appropriate authority must have regard to, and it is important to note that this is by no means a closed list of factors to be taken into account when making regulatory changes. I recognise that the intention is to put this important issue at the forefront of our minds, and that the factors involved in environmental protection, while broader than the remit of this Bill, may indeed be relevant as something to have regard to—and in those situations, this will happen. Let me explain.

In Committee, the noble Baroness raised important points about tackling the causes of environmental damage and listening to relevant stakeholders. As she knows, the Bill now includes Clause 43, which states that a public consultation must be carried out before regulations are made. This would provide an appropriate platform for relevant stakeholders in the production, distribution and consumption of human medicines, including manufacturers, healthcare practitioners and patients—and the noble Baroness will surely think also of campaigners—to raise their concerns and provide suggestions regarding regulations, which may include factors involving environmental protection. We would all agree that considering the environmental impact of what we do is important, but the power in Clause 1 is restricted to amending and supplementing the law relating to human medicines.

However, as I have reassured the noble Baroness previously, that law does not stand in isolation. The regulations made under this Bill must be considered within the wider context of other existing legislation that makes provision for environmental protection and access to medicines and healthcare services. The collective picture of legislation across the statute book ensures that environmental concerns are taken seriously. It includes provisions around packaging, safe management of medicines waste and medicines disposal. An example is the Environmental Protection Act 1990, which makes provision for the safe management of waste. This Act, which must be complied with by community pharmacies, imposes a duty of care on any person who disposes of controlled waste to take all reasonable steps to ensure that it is not disposed of in a manner likely to cause pollution of the environment or harm to human health.

I also reassure the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, on that point with regard to the management of waste and the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, on the fact that the Government have made a clear commitment that, post Brexit, our environmental standards will not be reduced. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, pointed out, the upcoming environment Bill will be a further opportunity to debate many of those matters in detail.

On the question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, of why the environmental impact of veterinary medicines has been included in the Bill, whereas the environmental impact of human medicines is not specifically provided for, the situation with veterinary medicines is slightly different. The environmental safety aspects of the regulatory framework on veterinary medicines relate to their potential impact on the terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems and their flora and fauna—soil, micro-organisms, fungi, algae, plants, invertebrates, fish, et cetera—so veterinary medicines occupy a slightly different space in our regulatory framework. I also point out to her that animals receiving veterinary medicines form part of the human food supply chain, so that is also taken into account.

I hope that the noble Baroness has heard sufficient from me to be persuaded that, while the issue of environmental protection is of course vital, the law in this area is already well established and, in the light of this, that she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

I thank the Minister for her answer and the noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilton, for her support for the amendment and her full reflections on the importance of antimicrobial resistance—something that we will be talking about a great deal in the coming years. The contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, was also hugely valuable, in that she complemented by looking at aspects that I had not taken up. She mentioned manufacturing not happening in an environmental vacuum, and in particular the issue of hormones such as oestrogen, and also focused on imported medicines and medical devices and their global impact—something that I talked about in Committee but had not talked about tonight.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his interest in and attention to what I said in Committee, and for his patience with the technology. I will take what he said as something of an expression of support for the intention behind this amendment.

I have two specific questions to press the Minister on further. She spoke about the processes of overseeing production and distribution, but she did not refer to, and was apparently not thinking about, issues around how research is regulated and how manufacturers are expected to look at the environmental impact of drugs when they are researching and making choices about which drugs to pursue. Secondly, the Minister said on veterinary medicines versus human medicines that it is there for veterinary medicines because of the impact on the terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems, the soils, et cetera. I go back to what the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, said about the impact of sewage. Human waste impacts very much on the ecosystems that the Minister acknowledged that veterinary medicines need to take into account.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

On the first point—considering environmental impacts in terms of research—obviously safety is one of the things primarily considered when looking at research on medicines. There is then separate provision in legislation for the safe disposal of any medicines that are not used. So we look at the safety of their use in humans and, through separate legislation, address the safe disposal of any medicines via that route.

That is also relevant to the second point on how human medicines can enter the ecosystem. I will write to the noble Baroness with further detail on that, but veterinary medicines are in a slightly different position, since we look at veterinary medicines for their impacts on animals but also have to think about their wider impact on the environment in terms of their position in the food chain. The safety standards on human medicines are much higher, because we look at their impact on patients taking them directly.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

I thank the Minister for her answer. I am aware this may not be entirely popular in the House, but I really feel this is an important issue the Government have not got to grips with. I am aware we have a long evening ahead of us, but none the less, I would like to test the opinion of the House.

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Moved by

[Baroness Penn]

8: Clause 1, page 1, line 16, leave out “an attractive or” and insert “a”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment omits the word “attractive” from Clause 1(3)(c).

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[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, I too congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, on another important speech on this key issue and the dogged way she has pursued her arguments and key questions to the Minister. I thank her for sharing her response letter of 7 January to the Minister, which clearly sets out the issues she is still pressing the Minister to address, and I am looking forward to the response from the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, on these matters. I also welcome the very expert and thoughtful contributions from other noble Lords both today and in Committee on this issue, drawing on their extensive professional and international experience and knowledge.

As my noble friend Lady Thornton made clear in Committee, we support this amendment. The reassurance from the Minister during Committee about the Government’s commitment to collaborating with public and private partners in the UK and globally to promote affordable access to vaccines and medicines for all is welcome. Also, we are grateful for their continued commitment to the UK’s obligations on the WHO TRIPS agreement and the DOHA declaration, which provide important flexibilities that support access to medicines and are especially vital during public health emergencies such as the Covid-19 pandemic that is so engulfing us today.

Noble Lords are right to underline the deep concerns of patient groups on the issue of fair and free access to medicines. I remind the House that the Royal College of Physicians, the Faculty of Pharmaceutical Medicine, the British Association of Dermatologists and other key stakeholders have called for a review of the processes for issuing sole manufacturing licences and consideration of the use of price control mechanisms in relation to costs of production to increase access to medicines at fair prices. The Government’s assertion that non-exclusive voluntary licensing provides incentives for developing new medicines and health technologies is not borne out by recent evidence on newly patented drugs, as the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, has pointed out.

On vaccines, and our participation as a country in the global sharing and effort, access to the Covid-19 tools accelerator COVAX advance market commitment needs continuing support from the UK and wealthier nations. The promise was for matched funding if the £1 billion target was reached by the end of last year. Can the Minister update the House on this, and what will be the UK’s contribution? Is there any further information on the role the UK will play in the WHO’s proposed Technology Access Pool, C-TAP?

Finally, on funding of research and development, a number of noble Lords raised the issue of the absence of analysis of, and data on, how much public and private money goes into the development of new vaccines and medicines. The Minister referred to the VPAS voluntary pricing scheme negotiated with the industry, which runs alongside the statutory pricing scheme, the NICE appraisal process and the commercial NHSI arrangements. The scheme is designed to support patient access to innovative medicines and expires next year, so these coming months will provide a crucial opportunity to commence a detailed review on how the research and development of medicines are actually funded. This would not only strengthen the Government’s negotiating position but lead to greater transparency in the UK’s future relationship with the pharmaceutical industry, which we all want to see.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, first, I would like to address the issue of patient and clinician access to affordable medicines in the UK. Patient and clinician access to affordable medicines is at the core of the NHS and this country’s healthcare policy. This Bill will not diminish that. Indeed, a safe and innovative regulatory regime for medicines and devices will support that outcome, although patient access is not dealt with directly in this Bill. The Government have recourse to a number of mechanisms to ensure that patient and clinician access to affordable medicines is upheld. For example, the price of branded medicines is controlled by the 2019 voluntary scheme for branded medicines pricing and access. The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence also continues to ensure cost-effectiveness for medicines purchased by the NHS.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, has noted, in line with the flexibilities in the TRIPS agreement, the Government also retain the right to order Crown use of patented medicines under Section 55(1)(a) of the Patents Act, where collaborative approaches are not successful or we determine that it is in the public interest. I should emphasise that this would be used only in very narrow circumstances, such as an emergency. The UK has an internationally renowned IP system, which cultivates an innovative pharmaceutical sector, attracts generics manufacturers, and ensures that the NHS has access to the most cost-effective options. We will continue to work with these stakeholders to provide cost-effective access to Covid-19 therapies and vaccines, in the UK and globally, on a voluntary basis.

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Moved by

[Baroness Penn]

11: Clause 1, page 1, line 17, at end insert—
“(3A) Where regulations under subsection (1) may have an impact on the safety of human medicines, the appropriate authority may make the regulations only if the authority considers that the benefits of doing so outweigh the risks.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the appropriate authority may make regulations that may have an impact on the safety of human medicines only if the authority considers that the benefits of doing so outweigh the risks.

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[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I too thank all noble Lords who put their names to this amendment. It truly reflects the cross-party concern on this issue. I pay particular thanks to my noble friend Lord Hunt and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, who have been absolutely persistent in raising this at every level. We have debated this not only on this Bill but in other debates in this House.

I thank the noble Lord the Minister and particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, for the regular meetings she has had with noble Lords to listen to our concerns. The fact that they have both listened and acted is a reflection of the good work this House can do in not acting in a partisan way. We have put the issue first and delivered on it. I am also grateful to the noble Baroness for the way she has gone to the limit of this Bill’s scope. I recognise that the Bill’s scope has placed limitations on us, but it does not stop us speaking about and delivering on the political issue that my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, have raised. I am particularly pleased to thank everyone concerned.

I will pick up a couple of points. One of the big political issues that started my noble friend’s concern was the exhibitions we saw. The idea that consent could be given by dead or dying prisoners in China is absolutely ridiculous. We should never accept it and should continue to ensure that we strengthen regulation in that regard. It will be ongoing work.

I also pick up a point that both my noble friend Lord Hunt and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, raised in Committee; in fact, we raised it at Second Reading. We named two companies involved in supplying organ-preserving devices to mainland China. This could explain how organs are being transported around China, supporting this obnoxious practice of harvesting organs.

I was pleased to read the statement made by Dominic Raab in his announcement that the Government will conduct an urgent review of export controls, specifically as they apply to the situation in the Xinjiang Province, to, as he said,

“make sure that we are doing everything that we can to prevent the export of any goods that could directly or indirectly contribute to human rights violations in that region.”

We have heard in our debates in this House that that is potentially going on, and I hope that the Minister will be able to respond that she will work with both the FCDO and the International Trade Department to ensure that the concerns raised today will be reflected the review that Dominic Raab has promised. I hope she will take that up and, as raised by both the noble Baroness, Lady Northover and my noble friend Lord Hunt, the China tribunal’s conclusions about the nature of the practice that has been going on and the fact that the Uighurs and Falun Gong practitioners are its main victims.

As we have said in many debates, the Communist Party of China and the Government of the People’s Republic have denied all claims about this, despite the evidence of the tribunal, and have relied on the WHO clearing them of wrongdoing. Of course, we know that that is because the WHO does not have an independent expert compliance assessment mechanism: it relies on the Government of China and the Chinese Communist Party simply saying that it does not happen. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, has been consistent and persistent in raising this issue and it has been raised with the WHO, but I hope the Minister will be able to respond today that we will continue to raise it through the organ of the WHO.

In conclusion, I repeat what has been said by all noble Lords. The importance of this amendment is not simply the specific points of law that it will address. The most important thing the amendment and this debate tonight does is send a very clear message that we will not tolerate such appalling acts against humanity and will deliver for the people of China, not for the Communist Party of China.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by thanking all noble Lords for their valuable and ongoing engagement on the matters raised by Amendment 13. Throughout the Bill’s passage, we have heard numerous passionate and heartfelt speeches on the allegations of organ harvesting in China and how the UK seeks to guard against complicity in any such practices. Anyone listening to speeches made by noble Lords in Grand Committee or this debate cannot have failed to understand the considerable strength of feeling behind those concerns. My noble friend Lord Bethell and I have greatly welcomed the thoughtful and constructive discussions on these issues.

Earlier today, the Foreign Secretary made an announcement setting out an ambitious package of measures that will help to ensure that no British organisations, whether public or private, are contributing inadvertently to human rights violations in Xinjiang. This demonstrates that we will not stand by as violations there continue. We will never hesitate to stand up for human rights as a force for good in the world.

The Government’s position is clear: if true, the practice of systemic, state-sponsored organ harvesting would constitute a serious violation of human rights. The China Tribunal report has been carefully considered by the FCDO and adds to a growing body of evidence about the disturbing situation that Falun Gong practitioners, Uighurs and other minorities face in China.

Given the considerable interest in these and related concerns over human rights violations in China, my noble friend Lord Ahmad, Minister for South Asia and the Commonwealth, has met repeatedly a number of noble Lords with particular interest in these matters over recent months. I trust that these discussions have provided some assurance of the Government’s absolute commitment to strong UK action. The Minister, is, I know, committed to ongoing engagement in coming weeks.

During Grand Committee, the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Alton, made clear their view that the WHO should be further engaged to take more robust action and to provide greater transparency on organ transplant practices in China. I am pleased to tell noble Lords that continued efforts by FCDO Ministers to engage the WHO on these matters have led to a valuable meeting between senior officials at the UK Mission in Geneva and Jane Ellison, executive director for external relations at the WHO. These discussions have opened up dialogue with key international partners on organ harvesting allegations, which we are committed to continuing.

Crucially, noble Lords may know that my noble friend Lord Ahmad has committed to meeting Sir Geoffrey Nice QC in the coming months to discuss further the findings of his report. The FCDO is, I know, absolutely committed to considering carefully all and any evidence presented on allegations of organ harvesting in China. I want to take the opportunity on behalf of the Minister for South Asia and the Commonwealth to thank my noble friend Lord Ribeiro and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for their role in engaging international medical organisations on these matters.

I now turn to the specifics of the amendment tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, to which I am pleased that my noble friend Lord Bethell has put his name. The amendment provides absolute clarity that the powers in Clause 2 of the Bill can be used to make regulatory changes about the use of human tissues or cells in legislation relating to human medicines.

While it is important to be absolutely clear that the use of imported tissue in any medicines on the UK market is extremely limited—there is only one licensed medicinal product in the UK that uses donor-derived tissues, and that tissue is sourced from within the EU—we are all in agreement that we would not want the UK medicines industry compromised by the use of human tissue or cells sourced through human rights violations. The amendment will ensure that we have the power to take action to amend or supplement provisions governing the use of human tissues in medicinal products in the Human Medicines Regulations 2012 or the Medicines for Human Use (Clinical Trials) Regulations 2004 to help assure the integrity of tissues and cells used in UK medicines if necessary.

The drafting, an iteration of the wording of a similar amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in Grand Committee, delivers important clarity on a number of points. In particular, the specific reference to both tissues and cells provides certainty on the scope of materials captured. The reference to definitions of those terms under the Human Tissues (Quality and Safety for Human Application) Regulations 2007 ensures consistency with wider UK legislation.

I am also assured that this drafting allows for provisions to encapsulate the full stream of activities in the regulation of medicines that could relate to the use of tissues and cells. Of course, as with any such provisions brought forward under Clause 1 of the Bill, this would be informed by public consultation, a critical step in ensuring the full consideration of an appropriate approach and mitigating against any unintended consequences—for instance, for the supply or development of medicines in the UK.

Finally, I recognise that noble Lords have raised a number of other important, related questions on how we safeguard domestic practices from being at risk of compromise by human rights violations overseas. In these discussions, we have sought to be completely clear with noble Lords on the limitations of what can be done under this Bill. However, let me reassure noble Lords that concerns have not gone unheard.

First and foremost, on the consent standards applied to tissues imported for the purposes of public display, I am pleased to announce that we will take forward work to strengthen the Human Tissue Authority’s code of practice on public display for imported tissues. Although such imports are rare, we are committed to ensuring that when tissues are imported from outside the UK for the purposes of display, the consent standards applied are clear, firm and enforceable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to support the noble Lord, Lord Clement -Jones, and my noble friend Lady Thornton. I urge the Minister to respond, as the noble Lord asked, on how Clause 3 will actually be used. It did not help that the Explanatory Notes made no mention of what the noble Lord described tonight and at Second Reading as “legislative creep”.

We have had submissions from a number of organisations that make the point that the wording goes beyond the current EU legislation, which was carefully implemented after extensive consultation with the relevant bodies. That is from the Company Chemists’ Association. The ABPI said that the falsified medicines directive was introduced as a barrier to counterfeit and falsified medicines entering the supply chain, thus reducing the potential risk of harm to patients, that the ABPI and its members have worked to fund and implement the falsified medicines directive, and that any future considerations under this clause must include full consultation with industry.

So there is general concern in the industry about how the clause will be used. We know that the department already has access to a wide range of data on medicines sales and use in the UK under the Health Service Products (Provision and Disclosure of Information) Regulations. Given this and the known sensitivities around falsified medicines data, I am still unclear why the department wants to extend the purposes for which data is collected under a future UK system. I know that we were very privileged—

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, unfortunately the noble Lord cut out again briefly. If he could rewind about 30 seconds, that would be appreciated.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 15 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, deals with a topic that has been discussed at length in both Houses. The noble Lord spoke eloquently in Committee, sharing his experience of medicinal cannabis and the benefits he obtains from it.

I will first address a separate but related matter that a number of noble Lords raised concerning the supply of certain cannabis-based medicines from the Netherlands. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and others in the House have received distressing calls from patients and families who have relied on these imported medicines. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Prevention, Public Health and Primary Care, Jo Churchill, met Alfie Dingley’s family and the patient group End Our Pain on Saturday to provide reassurance and an update on the action that we are taking.

I reassure noble Lords that we are working urgently with the Dutch Government to find a solution that will enable patients to access the medications they need. I cannot discuss the details of the proposals today, but I commit to provide noble Lords with a further update when I can.

Returning to the matter at hand, I reassure noble Lords that the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Field, in his amendment sit firmly with the Department of Health and Social Care, not the Home Office. While I am pleased that the noble Lord finds some relief with this medicine, the fact remains that the vast majority of cannabis-based medicines have not been assessed by the MHRA for safety, quality and efficacy, nor by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence for clinical and cost effectiveness. I believe that that is the nut that the noble Lord is trying to crack with his amendment. We are also trying to crack it as a Government, but from a slightly different approach.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, noted, the Government changed the law on 1 November 2018, to reschedule cannabis-based products for medicinal use in humans. This moved these products from Schedule 1 to the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001—no legitimate use—to Schedule 2, to permit the lawful prescribing and supply of cannabis-based medicines when certain criteria are met. In particular, cannabis-based medicinal products can be prescribed by one of three routes: as a “special medicinal product”, subject to the “specials regime” contained in the Human Medicines Regulations 2012, prescribed by a specialist medical practitioner; as an investigational medicinal product for use in a clinical trial; or as a medicinal product with a marketing authorisation.

Given that there is insufficient evidence on the safety, quality and efficacy of these unlicensed medicines, it is entirely appropriate that these products are subject to these stringent conditions. It would be inappropriate to establish parallel arrangements or to subject medicinal cannabis to any less stringent assessment than is the case for other medicines used for serious or chronic conditions. To do so would undermine the integrity of our medicines regulation in the UK. Also, it would run counter to the noble Lord’s objective to see the placing on the market of high-quality, standardised cannabis-based medicinal products that are safe and effective.

As noble Lords heard in Committee, we have removed some of the barriers to how these products are imported into the UK and we now see a wider range of products available to prescribers. I reassure noble Lords that we are also taking steps to improve the body of evidence available. NHS England and NHS Improvement have made good progress to establish a national patient registry for patients receiving medicinal cannabis. This has been developed with clinicians and aims to cover all clinical indications and all licensed and unlicensed medicinal cannabis products prescribed on the NHS and privately. The registry will be an important step forward in the collection of uniform data to support monitoring and evaluation of prescribing activity, patient safety and clinical outcome data. This data, and that produced from clinical trials, will help inform future NHS commissioning decisions. The registry is currently being piloted, with a view to further rollout next year.

On clinical trials, the National Institute for Health Research and NHS England are working together to set up a programme of two randomised controlled clinical trials. These trials will be critical in ensuring that evidence for cannabis-based medicinal products can be developed to inform future NHS commissioning decisions for the many hundreds of patients in the UK with refractory epilepsy. This is a pioneering area of research and we hope the trials will start as soon as possible. However, I must emphasise that industry also needs to step up and invest in robust clinical trials to improve understanding of how patients might benefit from these products.

I must say to noble Lords that it is not the job of the independent regulator to generate evidence. To do so would undermine the independence and objectivity of medicines regulation in this country, including the pharmacovigilance of medicines. The safety of the public will always come first, and the producers of medicinal cannabis must be prepared to subject their products to scrutiny by the MHRA and by NICE.

When marketing authorisations are sought, they will be dealt with by the regulator, as with any other medicine, taking into account their herbal origin. The MHRA offers, and has given, regulatory and scientific advice to companies and researchers to support their research and development of these products. I reassure noble Lords that the MHRA is committed to using the latest techniques and takes a patient-centric approach to medical regulations.

Regarding further discussion of this with the MHRA, I will take that request away. I think we all welcomed June Raine’s approach in the meeting with Peers last year on this Bill. I am also conscious at this exact moment in time of the pressures on the MHRA to support our national effort on vaccination rollout. I am sure we will get a positive response, but there might be a small issue around timing that we will have to take away and address.

As we have seen with the Pfizer and BioNTech Covid vaccine, and, indeed, with the other Covid vaccines that have come online, the MHRA upholds the highest standards and will authorise the use of medicines only following the most rigorous scientific assessment. This is essential to ensure that the public can have trust in the regulator and the medicines they use. Licensed products, such as Sativex for multiple sclerosis and Epidyolex for rare epilepsies, have gone through this process and are proof that cannabis-based products can meet the high standards of quality, safety and efficacy that we rightly expect in the UK.

On that basis, and on the basis of the Government’s ongoing efforts to ensure that we have a strong evidence base to provide further access to these medicines, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Field, to withdraw Amendment 15.

[Lord Field of Birkenhead (CB)]

My Lords, I can willingly agree to that last request. I think if we put it to a Division we might not win, so what is the point of closing doors when the Minister was busy opening them? I am immensely grateful to her for that.

As the House can see, many people can do two things at once—both speak and keep their masks in place. I fail that test. But I want to thank those who have participated—the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher, Lady Walmsley, Lady Thornton, Lady Masham, Lady Jolly, Lady Bennett and Lady Penn, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt—for their contributions in taking this debate further.

If I may, I will end on a cheerful note. Let us suppose that, in the next few days, the Prime Minister finds the time to look at this issue and decides that the Government’s line will be different. We know that the people who have had to defend the line tonight would then put another case to us, and I hope that that case will be put very shortly.

Safety is, of course, crucial. However, we have just experienced the introduction of the Oxford vaccine and other vaccines. Presumably they went through randomised controlled trials, so those can be accomplished very quickly. I hope that, when the Prime Minister changes his mind, we will move to testing the safety of these products as quickly as we have the vaccines. Just as the vaccines offer us hope of life after Covid, I hope that we will see a quick response for those millions of people who are not free to obtain their cannabis on the NHS but who, like me, are lucky enough to be able to buy it. I hope that we will move very quickly and resolutely. One way of levelling up is to make these products—once their safety has been established—free for everybody on the NHS.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Self-Isolation and Linked Households) (England) Regulations 2020

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Thursday 7th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD) [V]]

[Inaudible.]

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord needs to unmute himself.

[Lord Greaves (LD) [V]]

Sorry, I did so, and it went back on mute. I beg your pardon. My Lords, I speak again from the hills of east Lancashire, which are not so sunny today.

The Minister said that we are not back to the grim times of last March, but in this part of the world, and many others in the north, we have never really been out of them, apart from a short time in the middle of summer. The misery, loneliness and debilitating frustration of people such as small shopkeepers in town centres continues.

Vaccination is really the Government’s last chance to show that they can do something competently in this area. My noble friend Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted talked about the logistics and the rollout. In my view, at local level it is very important that the local people involved—the hospitals, GPs, pharmacies and local authorities providing facilities—are able to operate with a degree of flexibility.

Too often we have an attitude in this country of tram lines and tick boxes, and people are not able, and do not feel they are able, to do anything at all that is not on their tick list. Yet if people have the vaccines locally, it is very important that they use them, and that we do not get a situation in which there is a surplus of vaccines in a particular place and people do not turn up to get their vaccination, or there are not enough of the priority categories available. People have to be able to use those vaccines. Every vaccine delivered locally and not used will be a disgrace. I ask the Minister to assure us that people will have the flexibility to use them and to get people vaccinated, right up to 100%.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (All Tiers) (England) Regulations 2020

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Tuesday 1st December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman (CB) [V]]

My Lords, first, I apologise to the Minister because IT problems meant that I could not hear some of his introductory speech. What I did hear, earlier this afternoon, was some of the debate in another place on these regulations. No one listening could be left in doubt about the divisiveness of the proposals before us today, especially in relation to boundaries for the new tiers. These have created a deep sense of injustice and division between regions, areas and communities within regions.

For a variety of understandable reasons, the Government abandoned the clarity and sense of the whole nation being subject to the same constraints that we have had since early November. However, they have patently failed to convince people that the variants in restrictions are properly tailored and appropriate to the situations in the communities in which they live and with which they identify. A lack of respect for local leadership, knowledge and capacity has, I fear, been a recurring feature of the response to Covid, particularly in relation to test, trace and isolate. We must not make the same mistakes when it comes to the rollout of vaccinations.

When the tiers are reviewed on 16 December, I would urge a review of the basis of the boundaries so that they are seen to be more justifiable and fairer, which would engender better compliance. Data is available at the district and borough level on incidents, hospital admissions and all the issues that the Government say they will take into account. This data should be used to produce boundaries based much more on social geography and local conditions than on administrative areas. I recognise that, even if there is greater granularity and that reduces the sense of injustice, it will not eliminate it. The Government need fundamentally to improve the information and communication that they present.

For example, as others have said, the impact statement for today’s debate hardly engenders confidence in the very difficult, nuanced judgments the Minister and his colleagues are making, although I have huge sympathy for them. They can afford to be honest with the population. At the beginning of this pandemic, maybe there were many people who thought there would be an answer—that if they followed “The Science”, we would know what to do. We know that is not the case. We know that we must weigh up a number of factors and balance a number of different harms to try to find the least bad solutions to working our way through this. It is a complex and contested field, and the public are grown up enough to understand that.

I urge that in assessing what boundaries we use and the immediate effects on health—the dangers of Covid and how we protect people from it, as against the longer-term and indirect effects on health and well-being from unemployment and lack of access to normal health services—we respect individuals in our society enough to be frank about how those judgments are made and assessed.

Before I finish, I will say two things. First, most people want to do the right thing; they want to protect themselves and those they love. The Government need to help us do that. They need to empower us with access to testing, by ensuring that the test, trace and isolate systems are effective and working, and by making sure that people do not suffer from being good citizens and obeying what they are asked to do if they have been in contact with others.

Lastly, I was struck by what Dame Sally Davies said yesterday. We ask ourselves all the time why we have seen so many deaths and so much difficulty in coping with this as a country. She pinpointed the underlying public health issues this country faces: deprivation, obesity, dependence on alcohol and the issues that lead to social disadvantage and all that bundle of disadvantages that create ill health and vulnerability. When we review what has happened, I hope we will recognise social injustice as an underlying cause. [Inaudible.] This is not just about PPE but about reversing some of the social injustices in our society.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, now is a good moment to remind speakers of the time limit for this debate, which is six minutes for Back-Bench contributions.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

The noble Lords, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Hutton of Furness, have withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Cormack.

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[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

You think I am mad? That is a good start to a civilised debate. Anyway, all this is unnecessary and not the way we should move forward, because I think that the technocratic approach is bad for science and democracy. Science is in danger of being turned into a dogma set in a stone tablet; the very strength of the scientific method is challenging and testing hypotheses, and it is being corrupted by an adherence to “the science”.

Those scientists who raise concerns about the official narrative have their professional reputations traduced as fake experts and shills, have their interviews censored and dubbed misinformation—and are heckled as “mad”. Surely with a new virus, we need to hear all scientific views, not just those of SAGE. All scientists, pro and anti lockdown, should be prepared to have their work rigorously scrutinised and critiqued. None should be silenced, or important questions will not even be asked, let alone answered.

The technocratic approach is also bad for democracy because it narrows down the debate to solely assessing responses to Covid through quantifiable measures. I confess that we all get dragged into reducing the debate to its most narrow parameters. We have all wasted hours on the minutiae of the differences between tiers 2 and 3 and what they allow. That crude, utilitarian approach even means that we are all tempted to parade death figures to make our case: pro-lockdowners state Covid deaths while anti-lockdowners emphasise neglected cancer patients, heart disease victims and suicides.

This counting-the-bodies approach is available only if the Government allow us to think of health, longevity and safety as the only value in this debate, but it means that we miss the bigger picture. Yes, we can count the horrifying number of job losses due to lockdowns, not Covid, but there are more immeasurable aspects to this: unemployment, losing one’s savings and bankruptcy. It is not just about money; it robs people of dignity, agency and sense of worth. It demoralises people: they feel useless.

Yes, we can count the number of elderly and vulnerable lives allegedly protected by lockdowns, but how do you measure the cruelty of locking up so many people in, effectively, solitary confinement, deprived of love and stimulation? You can count the rising number of Covid cases, but it is not a sign of libertine recklessness that millions are bereft because they are denied conviviality, civil society and time with their mates in the pub, football and so on—it is called civil society; it is called society.

However, the greatest value sacrificed is our attack on freedom: it is not just the frightening number of new laws, micromanaging our lives, or the relentless attacks on freedom of association in churches, our own homes or on protests; it is worse than that. It is political leaders behaving like little emperors, throwing the public scraps of freedom for good behaviour, expecting them to be grateful and then grasping them back for misdemeanours. Citizens are rendered helpless, expected to be happy that they have been given a mere five days as a Christmas dispensation. Do you know how demeaning and frustrating it is to feel that one’s destiny is in the hands of SAGE behavioural psychologists who believe that board games and Christmas shopping are an existential threat to society?

All this seems so counterproductive—that is my point. Remember, politicians are asking society to do something historically unprecedented.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I need to remind the noble Baroness of the time limit.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

I am sorry; I lost track of time. I got distracted. Noble Lords have got the gist. Some people say I am mad; I appeal to the Government to turn back to the people—the citizens—to trust them and not be distracted by the opposition.

Covid-19 Update

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Monday 30th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Morris of Bolton) (Con)]

I call the noble Lord, Lord Dubs.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I think the noble Lord needs to unmute.

[Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]]

I apologise. Does the Minister have any estimate of the number of people who are currently in self-isolation? Does he agree that if these people were to be given high priority for testing, their period of self-isolation would be shortened and more people would be willing to go into self-isolation because they would not lose so much money if they could be tested quickly and resume their ordinary lives?

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 19th November 2020 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)]

I call the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. He is not there. The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, is not with us either so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Penn.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, before I speak to the helpful debate we had on this group of amendments, I should like to make a correction to my response to an earlier grouping. At the time, I said that all adverse incidents with medical devices are available online on the MHRA’s website. I would like to correct this: adverse incidents with medical devices will be published online on the MHRA’s website as part of the plans to deliver increased transparency and in line with developing future legislation enabled by the powers in the Bill. However, it is not presently the case.

Turning to our present debate, I thought it might be helpful first to address the current arrangements for the regulation of medicines, veterinary medicines and medical devices in Northern Ireland. Responsibility for medical device regulation is reserved in respect of the whole of the UK. However, Part 1 of the Bill, relating to human medicines, and Part 2, on veterinary medicines, deal with transferred matters in relation to Northern Ireland. Clauses 1 and 8 set out that regulations in relation to Northern Ireland can be made either by the Secretary of State acting jointly with the Northern Ireland department or by the Northern Ireland department. This has always been the case; however, the MHRA and the VMD regulate these areas UK-wide on a day-to-day basis. After the end of the transition period, with regard to both human and veterinary medicines, as well as medical devices, under the terms of the Northern Ireland protocol, Northern Ireland will continue to follow the acquis.

Amendment 119 in the name of the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, seeks to ensure that, in making regulations under the Bill, the Government must minimise and mitigate the potential for regulatory divergence between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Along with Amendment 120 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, Amendment 119 seeks to establish a requirement for the Secretary of State to report to Parliament on areas of divergence between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I completely understand that these probing amendments seek to ensure that Parliament has proper sight of how medicines and medical device regulation develops in the future, particularly in relation to any differences between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That is right and proper. Noble Lords will be aware, however, that the amendment in the name of my noble friend the Minister, on reporting obligations, means that the Government must already provide Parliament with a report every two years. This sits alongside the separate amendment to Clause 41 in my noble friend’s name, which requires a public consultation on any regulatory change to be made under the Bill.

That new reporting obligation on the operation of regulations made by the Secretary of State under Clauses 1(1), 8(1) and 12(1) is both forward and backward-looking. It must include any concerns raised or proposals for change made by anyone consulted by the Secretary of State in the preparation of the report, and the response to these. That may include advance notice of further regulatory change that the Secretary of State is proposing to make.

These reports, along with the public consultation on regulations under the Bill, would be the right place to deal with any issues of possible regulatory divergence raised. It would therefore be duplicative to require the Secretary of State to lay additional reports specifically on regulatory divergence for medicines and medical devices.

Noble Lords also asked a number of practical questions on how regulation will operate in Great Britain and Northern Ireland after the end of the transition period, which I will also address. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, asked who would be responsible for any possible divergence between the Great Britain and Northern Ireland regulatory systems. I can reassure her that the MHRA and the VMD, reporting to their respective Secretaries of State, will continue to regulate human and veterinary medicines and medical devices for the whole of the UK, and will continue to ensure that patients and animals in Northern Ireland, just as in Great Britain, receive the safe and effective medicines and devices they need.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, asked specifically about the interaction between the UK Government and the Northern Ireland Executive on issues relating to future regulation of medicines and medical devices. I can reassure the noble Baroness that officials in the Department of Health and Social Care meet officials in the Northern Ireland Executive every two weeks to discuss the Bill and regulation of medicines and devices, and that a strong working relationship exists.

Robin Swann MLA has also given consent for the medicines day one-readiness statutory instrument, laid on 20 October, to be made by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland as well as for Great Britain. We will continue to engage with the Northern Ireland Executive as plans for the future regulatory environment for devices and medicines develop.

The noble Lord, Lord Patel, also raised the approach to the day one readiness after the end of the transition period on which the MHRA has based its guidance to industry. I can reassure the noble Lord that, as I have just said, those regulations have been laid before Parliament, and we expect to debate them in early December.

Those regulations also require that from 1 January 2021, marketing authorisation holders must transmit all global serious reports of adverse drug reactions directly to the MHRA, to ensure that the agency has access to the totality of the information, to assess safety issues. This links to the noble Lord’s point on pharmacovigilance. I can reassure him that, following the end of the transition period, the MHRA will continue to be responsible for pharmacovigilance across the whole of the UK, and will use common processes for the assessment of safety issues in Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Patel (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I sent in a request to speak after the Minister. I am grateful to her for her lengthy response, but in a way it just shows that there will be considerable areas of divergence once we exit Europe, even after we exit Europe and the agreement with the EU has expired. What the Minister said is correct—that maybe the emergency power regulations will allow us to ask questions—but those are only emergency powers, and this is longer-term.

My amendment asks for an indication, on at least a yearly basis, of where divergences are occurring. It is interesting that the Minister said that the statutory instrument is now available and will be debated in due course. Of course it is available now—although I do not know when it was made available—and we will have an opportunity to debate it. However, the MHRA was already giving guidance on the basis of that instrument before we had seen it or debated it. The Minister’s reply did not therefore satisfy the intention behind my amendment—although I will, of course, not move it today—in terms of the necessity for the Government to produce a report of where divergences are occurring and why.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

To address the noble Lord’s question about when the statutory instrument was laid, I believe it was on 20 October. I think the statutory instrument laid on 20 October, which we shall debate, is not the Government’s approach to an answer on how we deal with the future issues of regulating medicines, medical devices and vet meds in Northern Ireland and Great Britain. What I was trying to express to the noble Lord is that we have a mechanism that means the Minister will report to Parliament every two years, both looking forward to prospective changes and back at any changes that may have been made. Of course, where new regulations are proposed there will be public consultation on those, but there will also be reports to Parliament ahead of that about the intentions, and those reports will provide a mechanism, which I think the noble Lord wants, to ensure that these issues are discussed properly in Parliament in future.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her response. Due to the break in the group since Tuesday, we have all had the advantage of being able to have a closer look in Hansard at the speeches made by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. If we had managed to squeeze in the Minister’s response, that would have been perfect; I could then have responded having read it all very closely.

Anyway, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Patel, both for his support of our amendment and his very detailed considerations and questions on the MHRA guidance on Northern Ireland-Great Britain regulatory diversion on medicines and medical devices. His speech was very much a tour de force on the whole situation, understating how confusing the situation is in relation to the distinction the MHRA guidance makes between the EU market, the GB market and the market for Northern Ireland. We will need to read Hansard carefully but, despite the Minister’s best endeavours, I cannot see that she has managed to clear up for us exactly how the whole confused system will work in the future.

Moreover, as the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Patel, mentioned, we do have the draft regulations. My attention has been drawn to them only this week. I thought they were published on 13 November, not in October, but that may be just me not reading them properly. Both regulations deal with Northern Ireland and Great Britain regulatory diversion issues, so this debate will be paused until we have considered those regulations and come back to the main Bill, and while we see what outcome there will be on the adoption of the Northern Ireland protocol.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, underlined the need for monitoring, oversight and accountability on this issue, and the importance of reporting to Parliament, and we obviously strongly agree with that. I did not specifically hear a response to her question on what internal discussions there have been between the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, and the Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive with responsibility for the NI Department of Health. If the Minister could write to her and put a copy in the Library, so that we can see what progress the discussions have made so far, that would be really helpful.

On the issue of reporting to Parliament annually—as in the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel—and not every two years, as the amended legislation provides for, I think the annual report called for by the noble Lord will be very much needed as all the problems and issues underlined by him and others in this debate are being worked through.

The issue is vital, and many issues are still to be identified, considered, worked through and resolved, which will mitigate and minimise the potential for regulatory divergence in human medicines and medical devices between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. In that expectation, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th November 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Chairman; I resisted the urge to leap in. My contribution, anyway, will be brief. I want to build on my remarks in the previous group and, in particular, to address Amendment 108 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel. I referred then to the article in the British Medical Journal about the medical-political complex. We have seen over the decades, again and again, in respect of medicines, pesticides and herbicides, situations where there has been growing concern about a particular chemical. Critics have come under tremendous pressure, including critics often from Governments—critics in official positions—from very large, powerful commercial interests to remain silent.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, asked how anyone could not speak out in a situation where they saw that there was a danger or a serious cause for concern. We have seen again and again, however, situations where people, including Ministers in Governments, have come under tremendous pressure. Does the Minister not think that an amendment such as that proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, would protect the Government, the individual and the public if she or one of her successors were in a situation where there was grave cause for concern but also very powerful multinational company forces at play?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for his amendment, designed to ensure that the public are always warned about concerns relating to a medical device where there is a clear threat to public safety. The Government agree that sharing information with the public—as well as the healthcare system—is important. Safety information is provided already to relevant special interest groups and through social media channels to ensure that messages are accessible and reach those affected who need to be aware or take action. This can include patients, healthcare professionals and members of the public. For example, MHRA recently urged users of Safe and Sound Infrared Ear Thermometers to check their product code and lot number due to a voluntary recall of specific lots because of a two-degree temperature overreading fault. This is a safety concern for members of the public who are monitoring their temperature, particularly in view of the pandemic. However, noble Lords are correct that it is critical that we do more to improve transparency and share more safety information to support patient safety. This has been made even more apparent in the findings of the report by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege.

Clause 35, along with Clause 13(1)(h)(iii), is designed to ensure that in future we can share information with key parts of the healthcare system, academia and the public in a considered and effective way. Under the current medical device legislation, MHRA does not have a clear legal basis to report all incidents involving medical devices occurring in the UK. By contrast, this has been common practice in the USA, via the FDA’s MAUDE database, and in Australia, via its DAEN database. Medicines legislation already enables MHRA to provide its interactive drug analysis prints, or iDAPs. It is therefore right that, via the information-sharing powers in this Bill, we are able to disclose in an appropriate manner all medical-device serious incidents. This will provide greatly improved transparency about the safety of medical devices in the UK.

Amendment 108 would place a legal requirement on the MHRA to disclose information to the public to warn them about concerns relating to a medical device where a clear threat to public safety had been determined. The amendment is unnecessary, as the MHRA would always share safety information with the public where it was necessary to do so. However, issuing warnings and safety information to the public needs careful management, a good understanding of the situation, full verification of the data and consideration of wider complexities. There is a high risk that mandating the disclosure of clear threats to public safety would commit MHRA to regular disproportionate direct communication to the public about safety issues that the public cannot act on.

The great majority of MHRA’s medical device safety alerts require healthcare workers, not members of the public, to take action to remove a public health threat. For example, MHRA’s national patient safety alert of 23 September 2020, addressing a clear threat to public health, instructed all hospital trusts and other healthcare providers on actions to be taken to avoid potential unexpected shutdown, leading to a complete loss of ventilation, when using the Philips Respironics V60 ventilator. Such messages should not be targeted and promoted to the public but should be made available passively to the public; for example, via access to a website. Otherwise, this would likely create unwarranted anxiety in the public about safety issues that they themselves could address because they required the intervention and clinical support of healthcare professionals.

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[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her explanation in response to Amendment 114. My desire to explore the issue slightly more is partly a result of what the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and others have said. It is also partly a result of the very helpful discussions this morning about the time that it is going to take to get the protection on devices in place. If we have another mesh situation, will that be able to emerge in this period of time? If so, who will be responsible for saying that it is not a safe device?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I believe that responsibility will continue to lie with the MHRA. We have existing systems, such as the yellow card reporting system. The report by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege will have made an important difference; as we discussed earlier and in other sittings, not just the systems but the culture will need to change. That culture change has begun already.

We must get the systems right so that they operate as intended and deliver the results that we all want, but the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, is right: in the space that there will be while we implement these changes, we need to be extra vigilant about these potential issues.

As I have already said, adverse incidents involving medical devices are published on the MHRA website. The job is to take all that information and make sure that it is not just dispersed but that people can build the bigger picture. That is what we are working towards.

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[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, and the noble Lord, Lord Patel, on these amendments dealing with regulatory divergence and Northern Ireland. I am a signatory to Amendment 119 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton.

During Second Reading, I stated that there is the issue of potential regulatory divergence in relation to Northern Ireland, as medicines are a devolved power but medical devices are not. The Bill raises the possibility of future regulatory divergence between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, and that matter requires clarification, hence my support for Amendment 119. Both amendments seek to ensure greater accountability and transparency, to which the noble Lord, Lord Patel, referred, in that Parliament should receive reports on regulatory divergence as a means of oversight and accountability—with which I totally agree.

In some areas, this also relates back to the Northern Ireland protocol. There is no doubt that we must ensure the highest level of standards in relation to veterinary medicines, human medicines and medical devices. In his response at Second Reading, the Minister indicated to me that the Government intended to implement the Northern Ireland protocol, but I ask how that squares with the UK internal market Bill, this Bill and the need to ensure that we have the highest standards for medicines, medical devices and veterinary medicines—how does this all square?

I note that the NHS Confederation will continue to follow developments, analyse the implications for the health sector in the UK and push for as much clarity as possible on the implementation of the Northern Ireland protocol from 1 January 2021. It has also been stated that Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK customs arrangements constitutionally, so HMRC—not EU officials—and the UK’s Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency should administer the necessary controls. The MHRA remains responsible for placing the goods on the market and monitoring products once sold, but they will have to be approved through the European procedures because Northern Ireland will be treated as a member state in terms of regulatory decisions.

There is also concern that there will be delays in the import and export of medicines and medical devices, which need to continue to reach patients as quickly as possible, and we must ensure that any such delays are minimised, particularly during a pandemic. Avoiding delays caused by tariffs and regulatory barriers requires the UK and the EU to reach agreement on shared standards, such as manufacturing and inspections, so that goods can be licensed for rapid release into the UK market, or vice versa. With potential new checks and the lack of clarity on how the regulatory framework will apply, this could create unnecessary delays and impact on individual patients but also on medical practitioners.

There is also a need, as the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee said, for the Government to commit to covering all costs to businesses for complying with the protocol, which includes the whole area of medicines. I ask the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Penn, what discussions she and the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, have had with Minister Swann in the Northern Ireland Executive, as the Minister responsible for the Department of Health, about these issues, particularly in relation to the measures to minimise and mitigate the impact of divergence and how that will be achieved. We want to ensure the least impact from regulatory divergence on the availability and accessibility of medical devices and any other forms of medicine, whether for humans or for animals.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, we have unfortunately come to the end of our allotted time for this Grand Committee. I am afraid that I will need to adjourn our debate for today.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

That concludes the work of the Committee this afternoon. I remind Members to sanitise their desks and chairs before leaving the Room.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 11th November 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I support Amendment 49 in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Bradley. It mandates the Secretary of State to publish proposals and a timetable for additional healthcare professionals to be given appropriately restricted prescribing rights. As other noble Lords have said, for well over 20 years, some appropriately trained nurses have been prescribing from a restricted list. I see no reason why, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, described, appropriately trained allied health professionals and others, working from a list of approved medicines commensurate with their profession, should not do the same.

This is entirely appropriate at the moment, when it is not always easy to access a GP. We have seen how successful giving prescribing rights to both community and practice nurses has proven to be. Patients are becoming more willing to have appointments with AHPs and nurses, rather than GPs, which frees doctors to concentrate on patients requiring more experience, such as those with unusual or complex conditions. This is a win-win amendment and I heartily commend it.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise that there is keen interest in how we may use powers in Clause 2(1)(n) of the Bill, relying on Clause 1(1), to continue to update the prescribing and supply responsibilities of healthcare professionals. However, I hope to persuade noble Lords that Amendment 49, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, is unnecessary.

I am very pleased to say to noble Lords that NHS England and NHS Improvement are already leading work to scope the current and potential future use of medicines supply, administration and prescribing mechanisms by a range of non-medical healthcare professionals. On 15 October, they started consulting on a range of proposals to extend medicines administration and supply responsibilities, and to update the medicines that some existing independent prescribers may prescribe.

The consultations cover the use of patient group directions by biomedical and clinical scientists and operating department practitioners, exemptions enabling dental therapists and hygienists to supply some medicines, and changes to the controlled drugs that can be prescribed by physiotherapists, podiatrists and paramedic independent prescribers. If progressed, these proposals would allow patients to get timely and safe access to medicines from the most appropriate healthcare professionals, without the need for extra appointments from other prescribers, such as a GP. The current consultation will run until 10 December and is of course a public consultation. It will be informed by the views of key patient and professional groups, with engagement starting shortly through a series of online events.

I reassure noble Lords that we are committed to updating the prescribing and supply responsibilities of professional groups, where it is safe and appropriate to do so. In keeping with the rest of the Bill, any such changes will be made in a way that serves the best interests of patients. The powers allow us to ensure that professional responsibilities can be updated to reflect developments in professional practice, new approaches to care, changing scientific understanding and growing technical abilities. This ensures that we can continue to make full use of the skills available to us among NHS professionals, and support patients to receive the best possible care and support from NHS staff.

I know that a number of NHS professional groups are keen to see their members taking on responsibility for supplying or prescribing medicines. We have recently seen papers put forward by the British Dietetic Association, the Royal College of Occupational Therapists, the British and Irish Orthoptic Society, the Society of Radiographers and the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists. I am very grateful to the professional groups for the careful consideration that they have given to these issues.

I reassure noble Lords that NHSE/I already has extensive joint working and engagement under way with these and other professional groups to consider whether any other changes would help keep patients safe and well. This will build on the historic work with various professional bodies and the devolved Administrations, over the last few years, which resulted in a number of changes, including allowing paramedics and therapeutic radiographers to be independent prescribers. As well as this, a wider scoping project is being led by NHS England and NHS Improvement, with the devolved Administrations and professional bodies, on the current and potential future use of medicines supply, administration and prescribing mechanisms by a range of non-medical healthcare professionals.

I also reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and other noble Lords who raised this that NHS England and NHS Improvement’s work on prescribing and supply will of course account for lessons learned from the Covid-19 response. For instance, NHSE/I wishes to learn from professional bodies and, in its scoping work, is asking them how the use of medicines mechanisms contributed and how they can play a role in increasing capacity to respond to future challenges. On that basis, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, feels able to withdraw her amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)]

I have received no requests to speak after—

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[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I am sorry; it was possibly delayed. It was really just to ask the noble Baroness: when is the earliest she thinks there will be change? Are we looking at three months, six months or a year?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I might need to pick this up with the noble Baroness in writing afterwards. The consultation will close in December and, obviously, work has to be done after that—but it is probably safest to write, if that is okay.

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, for raising the important issue of the prescribing cascade, as put forward in Amendment 62. I recognise the desire to ensure that the use of the cascade continues to be regulated. It is an important tool for veterinary surgeons, as they can access a wider range of medicines to treat animals under their care and avoid unacceptable suffering. However, I reassure the noble Baroness that this amendment is not necessary. The Bill already confers discretionary powers that will allow the appropriate authority to decide, following public consultation, if and how the existing cascade provisions in the Veterinary Medicines Regulations 2013 should be amended.

The existing provisions for the prescribing cascade are well used and well understood by veterinary surgeons who are responsible for their prescribing decisions. The provisions were so well described by the noble Baroness that I shall not repeat them here.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, is right that the second option under the cascade is the use of human medicine authorisation in the UK or a veterinary medicine authorised in an EU member state. She and the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, asked what will happen after the end of the transition period. On 1 January, the second option will be extended to encompass the importing of veterinary medicines from any other country, rather than only EU member states. This is being provided for through secondary legislation taken through last year, I believe.

The Veterinary Medicines Regulations 2013 also set out additional conditions that need to be met when a product is prescribed under the cascade for use in food-producing species. These conditions help protect the safety of consumers of produce from treated animals. The conditions state that the pharmacologically active substances contained in the medicines must have a maximum residue limit, an appropriate withdrawal period must be specified, and specified records must be kept. These conditions help protect the safety of consumers of produce from treated animals. We do not plan to significantly diverge from the current prescribing cascade for veterinary medicines.

The new EU regulation 2019/6 on veterinary medicinal products will apply in the EU from January 2022. This regulation introduces changes to the cascade, such as separate cascade structures for food producing and non-food producing animals. It includes provisions on the use of antimicrobial medicines under the cascade. For example, the European Commission may, by means of implementing Acts yet to be adopted by the EU, establish a list of antimicrobials which shall not be used under the cascade and a list of antimicrobials which shall be used, subject to certain conditions for cascade use. If it is in the best interests of the UK, we can make provision corresponding or similar to those in EU regulation under the powers in the Bill.

The UK Government and animal sectors have already shown their commitment to tackling antimicrobial resistance and the sectors have substantially reduced their use of antimicrobials in food-producing species—a 53% reduction in sales between 2014 and 2018. The Government will consult on proposed changes to the VMR, including changes implementing our priorities on antimicrobial resistance.

The amendment that the noble Baroness has proposed would obligate the Secretary of State to make changes to the regulations on the use of the cascade. I hope I have reassured her that the cascade remains of vital importance, and it is right that we have the option to amend the regulations when it is appropriate and necessary, subject to consultation, rather than being obliged to do so.

I will write to the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, on her question about trade deals.

In the light of that response, I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, for her support and the Minister for her response. As I said, I have learned a great deal about this valuable procedure. I am grateful for the Minister’s reassurance on the Government’s continued support for and commitment to the cascade. I will certainly read her comments carefully. I did not hear any reference to the VICH, but if she would write to me on that that would be very helpful. With that, I withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lords, Lord Freyberg and Lord Clement-Jones, have done the Committee a great service today. I was fascinated by the speech from the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, which set the tone for this discussion. I welcome his main points and his knowledge. He knows that I am a supporter of his work in this area, particularly on the protection of patient data.

It is a constant source of concern that either through carelessness, lack of expertise, unscrupulousness or policy fragmentation, our NHS will not benefit from AI and the use of patient data. I see this amendment as part of that discussion and that effort to decide what happens. The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, has asked some very pertinent questions about algorithms, how they change and how they develop. Our job, surely, during the course of this Bill, is to find legislation that is ahead of the technology for once, not behind it. I was particularly struck by what the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, has to say about GOQii and the MHRA, and the definition for medical devices and algorithms. The use of AI and algorithms is not impartial. We know that, particularly given our recent experience with A-levels, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones.

The Minister has to find a way of ensuring that this Bill reflects the modern situation and does not stop innovation. I really hope that she is not going to say that those of us who are asking these questions are opposed to innovation, because that is absolutely not the case. These are very important questions indeed for the future, as we find ourselves between the FDA and the European Union, and we make our way in this particular world.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, all the amendments in this group deal with the important matter of forward-thinking regulation—regulation that evolves as technology evolves. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, that all the questions raised in this debate are very pertinent and are pro-innovation, not anti-innovation questions, concerned with ensuring that we can regulate this area properly.

As my noble friend the Minister said in previous communication to the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, artificial intelligence is already in use in medical device technology and is already regulated—for example, Babylon’s mobile application Healthcheck is software that provides a general health assessment to users. That application is registered as class 1 medical device by the MHRA. We are also working on equipping our regulator for these products. The MHRA secured £740,000 from the Regulators’ Pioneer Fund to work with NHS Digital on developing a pilot in order to test and validate algorithms and other AI used in medical devices. There are other works in train to get the benefit of artificial intelligence in the health service. The Artificial Intelligence Award is run by the Accelerated Access Collaborative in partnership with NHSX and the National Institute for Health Research. It is making £140 million available to accelerate the testing and evaluation of the most promising AI technologies that meet the strategic aims set out in the NHS Long Term Plan.

I recognise that the intention of Amendments 83, 112 and 113 is to address the potential to cause harm to patients without appropriate regulation of these technologies. I can reassure noble Lords that software used for the application of medical devices falls within the definition of a medical device under the EU medical device directive, transposed into UK law through the Medical Devices Regulations 2002. Artificial intelligence and algorithms are encompassed within the term “software” where they have a medical purpose, and I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, that this covers static and dynamic algorithms.

In addition, within 12 months of this Bill gaining Royal Assent, we will start to develop new medical device regulations. The development of these regulations will include a full consultation on any changes proposed. I can commit here that the consultation will conclude within 12 months and will include the definition of a medical device, with particular reference to algorithms and methodologies used for the interpretation of data and associated technical architecture used within medical devices. This process will allow members of the public, patients and industry bodies—as well as perhaps noble Lords in this Committee—to help shape the future of regulation in the UK and the terminology that we use to describe what is captured by those regulations.

The amendments are accordingly unnecessary, as the outcome sought will be achieved under the umbrella of the wider-scale review of medical devices regulation in the UK, which will take place during a similar window as that sought by the amendment and will address the specific questions that it raises. So I hope that I have reassured the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, that the existing definition covering both dynamic and static algorithms is sufficient and, if I have not, that he will take satisfaction from the Government’s commitment that, within 12 months, we will have concluded a consultation—to which I hope the noble Lord will contribute—that will include the definition of a medical device and specific reference to algorithms and methodologies used for interpretation of data.

This is an incredibly important debate. This is an emerging area of technology and, while we are reassured that the current regulations capture what they need to, we also need to look to the future, which is what the consultation can do. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

I have received a request to speak after the Minister from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton. I now call the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness the Minister. This is such an important issue, with the potential for huge benefits and huge harms. I regard it slightly like the sort of issues we dealt with in relation to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority and the Human Tissue Authority—this is very important and runs very deep into our humanity. So the question I need to ask the Minister is: when the consultation is over, will we be looking at primary legislation, because I am not sure that regulation will quite do?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the consultation will look at the specific issue of medical device regulation that takes place through secondary legislation. However, the noble Baroness is right in that this is not the only aspect of this issue that we are looking at and working on. There is work across government on a number of areas where this technology comes up, and we have established a number of bodies to help us in our work, such as the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation. So, although the specific issue about the definition of a medical device and medical device regulations will take place under this Bill—subject to public consultation —there is a broader landscape that we will also address across the board and across government.

[Lord Freyberg (CB)]

My Lords, I first thank the Minister for her attentiveness during my very long and quite tortuous speech, and for the very detailed responses I have had, back and forth, from the Minister’s officials, which have been exceptionally helpful. They have been doing that over many days and many weeks. I also thank the other noble Lords who supported my amendment: the noble Baronesses, Lady Jolly and Lady Bennett, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. It was hugely welcome and I thank them for the contributions that they made.

I was fascinated by the fact that the Minister thought that it was both dynamic and static. That is not what I had understood from the letters, but I would like to look at that again. I will obviously follow her remarks in Hansard quite closely. Perhaps I could have further dialogue with her or the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, about that, because I am not entirely sure that that is how I have interpreted it—so I would like to come back on that, if I may.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, I recall what the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, said about the ongoing situation that faces those affected by sodium valproate and mesh. We do not want to be in a situation in years to come of not having something that adequately protects the public, and I worry that we are not getting to the root of this. So, while I am happy that the Minister has offered this review in 12 months’ time, I would like more information about that. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 94A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, deals with a topic of great difficulty. As the noble Lord has personally testified, patients and families deal courageously with challenging conditions, and I know that the issue of medicinal cannabis is one that has had much debate.

As other noble Lords have pointed out, it is almost two years to the day that the Government changed the law to allow the supply of medicinal cannabis under misuse of drugs legislation. These regulations provide that medicinal products containing cannabis can be prescribed or supplied when certain conditions are met. These conditions are that the relevant cannabis product is a special medicinal product, an investigational medicinal product for use in a clinical trial or a medicinal product with a marketing authorisation.

I do not have specific figures for the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, on the number of people who may have accessed cannabis drugs since then. I understand that the collection of data on certain private prescriptions was suspended because of Covid-19, but we can go away and look for the latest data and, when it becomes available, update the House. I believe I heard the noble Lord, Lord Field, say that there may have been 204 prescriptions. While I cannot endorse that figure, and noble Lords may feel it is low, it is considerably higher than the figure that the noble Baroness quoted for one year after the approval of medicinal cannabis. Therefore, if it is correct, progress is being made in the right direction.

Noble Lords are right that cannabis remains a controlled drug. I appreciate that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, already expressed views on this in our discussions with the MHRA on whether it ought to be a controlled drug at all. The noble Lord, Lord Field, also made that point. However, the changes to its restrictions are set out in the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001, for England, Scotland and Wales, and the Misuse of Drugs Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2002. Those regulations are not within the scope of the Bill.

What is within scope is when those medicinal products are regulated as a human medicine. The noble Lord is asking for regulations to provide for a specific licensing regime for medicinal cannabis. However, I stress that medicinal cannabis products already have a route to market. They fall within the scope of the Human Medicines Regulations 2012 and the Medicines for Human Use (Clinical Trials) Regulations 2004. It is entirely appropriate that they are subject to the same standards and requirements of evidence as any other medicine. The MHRA’s licensing process takes into account evidence of clinical efficacy. This includes consideration of all evidence supplied by the manufacturer. The regulators also inspect the factory where the medicine is to be made to make sure that supplies will be of a uniformly and consistently high standard. Companies can and do submit evidence of use from other countries, so there is no need to set an explicit requirement to consider efficacy internationally. If a company wishes to make a product available, it can within this regime.

Medicinal devices that administer medicinal products, including medicinal products containing cannabis, would also need to comply with the relevant provisions of the Medical Devices Regulations 2002. But a medicinal product in the UK must be safe. We have talked throughout the Committee about the critical importance of safety and the need to uphold standards. There is a paucity of evidence to support the quality, safety and efficacy of these products, meaning that very few hold marketing authorisations. To address this, the industry needs to further the evidence base and support the use of their products. Government is supporting this with a programme of two randomised control trials commissioned by the National Institute for Health Research. I hope that reassures the noble Lord, Lord Patel, as the National Institute for Health Research is engaged in assessing the evidence in this matter. These trials will be critical in ensuring that evidence for cannabis-based medicinal products can be developed to plan future NHS commissioning decisions for the many patients who may benefit from these innovative medicines.

Just to pick up on the question of how many drugs may already hold licensing, I can say that there are three such licensed products, including Sativex for MS and Epidyolex for rare epilepsies. These drugs are proof that cannabis-based products can meet the high standards of quality, safety and efficacy that we rightly expect in the UK. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, that the drugs that have been licensed by the MHRA also have NICE approval for use in the NHS in certain appropriate conditions. As we heard in our meeting with the MHRA on Monday, it is able and willing to provide advice to researchers and companies that wish to conduct clinical trials and go through the licensing process for their products.

Cannabis-based products for medicinal use can also be supplied as unlicensed “special” medicines, as noble Lords have noted. A special medicinal product is a product that is manufactured or assembled according to the specifications of a specialist medical practitioner to meet the needs of a specific patient, in accordance with the stringent “specials” regime provided for in the Human Medicines Regulations 2012. Those unlicensed products have not been assessed by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence for clinical or cost effectiveness. These are the foundations of NHS decisions about routine funding for medicines.

I appreciate that families with ill children, or patients themselves, would dearly love to have greater products available to them for more purposes, but this is not about creating new licensing routes. It is about companies coming forward and undertaking clinical trials and tests and it is about having the appropriate level of assessment and understanding of the impact. We are taking steps to improve the body of evidence available. When marketing authorisations are sought, they will be dealt with by the regulator, as they would for any other medicine. That may not be as quickly as some would like, but it is necessary to protect patients. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Field, is content to withdraw his amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

I have received requests from three noble Lords to speak: the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay, Lady Walmsley and Lady Thornton. I call the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am most grateful to be able to come in at the end of this important short debate. I particularly commend the noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, for his outstanding and long history as a parliamentarian and, yet again, for his clarity and ethical approach to every subject that he addresses.

I am glad that the Minister has referred to the two studies from the NIHR and simply support the idea that we need to wait for those, although I draw attention to the fact that, in 2018, there was a Cochrane database review, which looked at the 16 double-blind randomised control trials that it could find. It found some support, but it was not terribly strong. One of the difficulties here is that pain is a symptom that occurs in an enormous range of disorders, but the fundamental cause of the pain will be very different in different people. To get a matched population where you can compare one with another is extremely difficult. I hope that the change that NICE is looking to in the evidence that it seeks, where it will also look at evidence in practice, will support the evidence coming through from large patient cohorts who can then be put into broader groups.

The other point about pain is that, as people get multiple pathologies, they often take several other medications as well, which can interfere with the ability to assess them. They are also often elderly. The evidence certainly needs to be accrued. I would say as a clinician that one worry was always whether there would be a leak of cannabis on to the streets. However, in practice, I think that the leakage has gone other way so that it comes from the streets into people’s homes. Clinicians have had to look at this with Nelson’s eye because they do not want to support clinical activity. In a study that I did, while we did not ask patients to tell us specifically where they were getting some things from, when we put together all the different types of alternative therapies being used by a group of people who were cancer patients, the numbers were huge. This supports many of the comments that have already been made. I am glad that the Government are looking at it and I expect that it will not be too long before we find that the ability to get the medication that is needed is made easier. I worry that it may be too late for some patients, but we are getting there.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her comments about the importance of evidence. The Government and the MHRA recognise some of the difficulties around these trials. That is part of the reason that NIHR is supporting two trials and is asking people to come forward. The MHRA has also indicated that it is willing to work with those who have these products in order to support them in the process for licensing.

That has reminded me of one other point. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked me about the NHS commissioning through evaluation programme. I undertake to write to her with a response, perhaps when I update the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, on prescription numbers.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that. With regard to her earlier response, if it were as easy as that, there would have been tens of thousands of NHS prescriptions in the past two years, but clearly that has not been the case. The noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Meacher, have both made it clear why it is very difficult to conduct randomised double-blind clinical trials for these products. That is why I have suggested that, while we wait for many more than two trials, the commissioning through evaluation system could be used. I am grateful to the Minister for promising to write to me about that.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her comments. I emphasise that there has been a great deal of discussion in the debate about the use of evidence. That is what will guide the Government and the MHRA in this, and that is why we are supportive of these RCTs taking place.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I have two brief questions. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, in what she said about 200 being two a week. That is really pathetic in terms of what the need is likely to be. I wondered if the problem was because early on, there was a certain nervousness among GPs and clinicians in terms of the legal issues as regards prescribing cannabis products. Is that still an issue? The other thing I want to ask the Minister about is whether the MHRA is drawing on international experience because some countries are much further ahead on these issues than we are.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The MHRA is very clear about its desire to be an international regulator and engage with other regulators across the world on all issues regarding the regulation of medicines and medical devices, so I am sure that it is working in this area. On the point the noble Baroness has made about the nervousness of clinicians on the legal status, this is not something that I am aware is still an issue, but I am happy to take the point away and look at it again.

[Lord Patel (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I wish to concur with some of the points made; I do not speak against anything said by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. We are in complete agreement and I do not counteract anything that she says anyway. Having said that, most people look at medicines as things that cure disease. Most medicines do not cure disease. Symptoms are what patients experience, and we have to treat those symptoms. As an obstetrician, I have spent most of my life treating the symptoms of pain, prescribing morphine and heroin as painkillers to mothers who are suffering from labour pains. I could not measure their pain in any way except by what they told me about it.

The problem with database evaluation is that it looks for the size of the randomised trials. I suggest that observational studies that look at the experience of patients are a good enough database to evaluate whether the substance used is effective in alleviating their suffering. That is the sort of evidence that I hope NIHR will seek to establish a proper database. I am pleased to hear the Minister say that NIHR is looking at ways of dealing with this.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the only thing that I will add is that the noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, said that this was about equality. My point is that MHRA’s approach to medicinal cannabis is the approach it takes to licensing all other medicines. So whatever approach we take to evidence, or how we look at the appropriate gathering of that evidence, will be based on the approach we take to all medicines. The way in which cannabis is treated is not as a different or exceptional case, and we will want to ensure that that is the case going forwards.

[Lord Field of Birkenhead (CB)]

My Lords, it may be because I am a new Member that I do not quite understand the nuances of language in the House of Lords. I thank most sincerely my fellow Peers who have participated in the debate, and I agree with the Minister’s wish that at this stage I should withdraw the amendment, but in doing so, I would like to say that we will return to this issue. I would particularly like to return to the issue that my noble friend Lady Thornton raised, about equal access.

Only 10 NHS prescriptions have been offered under the new provisions that Parliament made. When I got what had to be a private prescription and took it to Boots, the pharmacist came back with it as though I had left some terrible mess, dropped the prescription back on the counter and said, “We do not dispense that drug.” So all the talk that somehow, if only we could get a prescription, we would get a supply, is also a myth.

I am disappointed with the Minister’s reply. I thought it was pretty thin gruel to offer us. Although I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, I hope that those of us who are interested in this topic will return to it at the most suitable date.

Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions) (England) (No. 4) Regulations 2020

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Wednesday 4th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Desai (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, who is an economist and a friend from the LSE. In the 30 years I have been in your Lordships’ House, I have never had the luxury of six regret amendments from the Government Benches themselves—so we can have the luxury of supporting the Government for a while. Let them quarrel among themselves.

As an economist, I used to be very humble in the face of natural scientists. I used to think that their models were solidly based on theory, experiment and science, and that we economists were just doing things and quarrelling with each other. I have to admit that I was in the econometric modelling business—my God—60 years ago and did the first computer simulation of an econometric model for my PhD. But let us leave all that behind.

I am embarrassed that what we call science has made a complete fool of itself in front of all of us. Epidemiologists, virologists and people who claim to have done several computer simulation models have not come to a single agreement. They have not got a model of what causes the infection or how it spreads. They have not given us any solid clue as to the rate at which the infection spreads—the R number. Is that number valid for a whole nation or only for a locality? What is the technical basis of the R number? How can we have a national lockdown with the goal of reducing the R number to below 1 across the nation, with no errors? Is this serious science? Do the Government have any critical ability they can borrow from somewhere else to judge what they are hitching us to do for the next month, if nothing better turns up?

I will make two points I have raised before. Is our aim to reduce the rate of infection or the rate of mortality? There is a difference. Look at America, where everybody says that Trump made a mess and there are a lot of infections. The rate of mortality as a proportion of infection is the same in America as here. The economic outcome in America for the third quarter of this year is a plus 33% growth in GDP: a real bounce-back from the recession—a genuinely V-shaped recession—while we are floundering around. As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, who is very knowledgeable on this matter, pointed out—

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, there are many more speakers.

[Lord Desai (Lab)]

I will now sit down, under protest.

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[Baroness Morrissey (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am honoured to follow my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe and agree with so much of what she said, and with other Members of your Lordships’ House. They have put forward such compelling arguments around the shortcomings of the Government’s approach in decreeing another national lockdown.

I do not want to repeat anything that others have said but, as a businesswoman, I would like to draw parallels with how decisions are required to be made in business, at least those that will affect many stakeholders. In business, the higher the stakes, the higher the burden of proof on the decision-makers. A FTSE 100 CEO announcing a major change in strategy needs to bring along those who are affected by setting out the basis for the decision, the pros and cons and the likely impacts—good and bad—across all parts of the business and groups that will be affected. If it is a particularly controversial decision, that CEO may also take the trouble to explain what other options were considered and why they were not chosen. He or she will share the numbers, the assumptions behind them and the projections into the future and take detailed questions. If noble Lords ever attend a company’s results day, they will find it a spreadsheet-heavy affair. Even if it is sobering news, if the case is well made and the analysis sound then shareholders and other stakeholders, such as employees, tend to go along with the decision. The CEO respects the need to bring them with him or her because if he or she does not and the news is unpalatable, they will vote with their feet.

Of course, I completely understand that running the country is not the same as running a business. No, the stakes are much higher and far more people are affected, which is why there needs to be scrutiny and sound evidence to back up such decisions, at least in a democracy.

Let us remember that we have had eight months to develop our understanding, modelling and preparedness for Covid-19. We should not be back to where we started. Yet we hear a reprise of the justification used in March that we willingly accepted at the time because we knew so little about the virus and its impact, and had not built capacity in the NHS or effective treatments for those hospitalised.

At present, although we have even more to lose and the economy is already fragile, the less we are told, the weaker the basis is for the decision. There is vagueness and confusion around the medical evidence used to justify the second lockdown decree. On Monday, when Conservative MP Huw Merriman asked why East Sussex was being locked down when it had,

“one of the lowest Covid rates of any county”,

the Prime Minister replied that

“the medical data is, alas, overwhelming.”—[Official Report, Commons, 2/11/20; col. 49.]

I use my analogy again. Imagine a FTSE CEO, when challenged by an analyst about a decision to close, say, a factory, saying, “Alas, we just have to”. Real data is needed, not just numbers around the virus, although that would be a very useful start, given that the Government’s scientific advisers seem unconvinced by the out-of-date graph shown alongside Saturday’s announcement.

In my draft of this speech, I was going to say that there is no evidence that the Government have undertaken a broader impact assessment before coming to the conclusion that a second lockdown was necessary.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Morrissey (Con) [V]]

There has now been an admission that no such impact analysis has been made. Yet although we do not know whether lockdown will work or even if it is necessary—

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Morrissey (Con) [V]]

We know, as others have said, that the collateral damage will be devastating. We and the public need to see how devastating that will be and why the other options, such as continuing with tiers 1 to 3 local restrictions or shielding only those who are vulnerable, would be worse. No one from the Government has shared any such analysis. Presumably, the Treasury has modelled the outcome on the economy, so why can we not see that? What are the expected excess deaths from untreated cancers, heart disease and suicides borne out of loneliness, despair and poverty?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the time limit for Back-Bench contributions is three minutes. Everyone else has respected that limit and I will have to ask the noble Baroness to draw her remarks to a close.

[Baroness Morrissey (Con) [V]]

I will do so. I apologise.

It is shocking that when the stakes are so high, when a draconian step is being dictated to us, so little information is shared. Saying “alas” is not good enough. Will the Minister explain why the Government have not carried out an impact assessment and whether they plan to do so now?

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 4th November 2020 Grand Committee

Debate on Amendment 27 resumed.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their patience in waiting a full week to hear the response to what was a very useful and detailed debate. By way of compensation, I hope my response today reassures them that my time has been put to good effect: I am sure they will let me know if that is not the case.

Amendment 27 was tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. I reassure both noble Lords that the Government and the MHRA remain committed to ongoing international collaboration for the benefit of patients and the life sciences sector in the UK. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, set out some of the work the MHRA is doing to deliver on this commitment after the end of the transition period in his opening remarks on this group. I am pleased that noble Lords had the opportunity to hear from and question the MHRA directly on this and other issues this week. The Government heard the request from noble Lords to ensure that this is part of an ongoing dialogue with the regulator and parliamentarians.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I am reluctant to revisit the debate on alignment with the EU, which we have already had in this Committee, as well as in many previous debates. However, I reassure him that the UK is seeking mutual recognition with the EU on a number of areas, including batch testing, good manufacturing practice and continuing co-operation on pharmacovigilance. Certain aspects of medicine regulations are also harmonised at an international level and we are committed to those international standards in all areas. Indeed, to further support the aim of continued international collaboration, we have tabled Amendment 48, which I will come to shortly.

Turning to Amendment 118, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, I reassure her that this amendment is unnecessary. The MHRA and the VMD are both recognised globally as leading regulators and will retain their regulatory sovereignty regardless of any trade deals agreed. This will include the MHRA’s duty to consider the safety and efficacy of human medicines placed on the UK market. We will ensure that our new FTAs provide flexibility for the Government to protect legitimate domestic priorities; we have made this clear in our published approach to trade negotiations with specific trading partners.

On the price the NHS pays for medicines, the Government have made clear that this is not on the table for negotiations. The prices of branded medicines will continue to be controlled through the 2019 voluntary scheme for branded medicines pricing and access—VPAS. To be absolutely clear, the powers in the Bill do not enable regulations to be made that relate to the pricing of medicines or medical devices. In relation to data, the UK has a strong system to protect health and care data, as set out in the Data Protection Act 2018 and covered by the common law duty of confidentiality. Our objectives for trade negotiations are explicit that we will maintain the UK’s high standards of data protection. Again, to be absolutely clear, it would not be within the scope of the powers in the Bill under Clauses 1, 8 and 12 to create exceptions to or modify the provisions of our data protection legislation.

I heard in last week’s debate that questions of safeguards and data protection were at the heart of noble Lords’ concerns about the government amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Bethell, to which I will now turn. These amendments would allow us to share information regarding these areas with international regulators or networks where this is required to give effect to international agreements or arrangements. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and others about the motivation behind these amendments, which have been identified as necessary as part of the work to support the future relationship with the European Union, and to protect and preserve existing work that the MHRA does. On his question about source codes and algorithms in medical devices, I make two points. The UK-Japan trade deal, as with the EU-Japan trade deal that came before it, provides for safeguards against IP infringement on the question of source code and algorithms. However, to protect patient safety, and for effective regulation, there remains provision for a regulator or conformity assessment body to request source code and algorithms as part of their regulatory responsibilities.

The MHRA and the VMD presently share and receive intelligence from their counterparts through our membership of the European Union, which will come to an end. The MHRA and the VMD will be the UK’s independent, standalone regulators and require appropriate legal powers for their own reciprocal information-sharing arrangements with other nations and forums. Without this, the UK may not be able to comply with its information-sharing obligations under international agreements; nor would it be able to participate in international arrangements facilitating the mutual exchange of intelligence regarding medicines and medical devices. These exchanges of information are of vital interest to UK patient safety. For example, intelligence sourced from international regulators through the EU has ensured access to life-saving medical devices for UK patients during Covid and has enabled the MHRA to trace suppliers of non-compliant testing kits. This is vital and will continue to be so going forward.

Future reciprocal information-sharing agreements with international regulators will help the MHRA and VMD to take swift regulatory action on medicines and medical devices that pose a risk, removing them from the marketplace if necessary. I reassure noble Lords that this data is limited to the data that the MHRA holds. The MHRA will always anonymise patient data before it is shared internationally, under the powers in the Bill. For the purpose of pharmacovigilance, for example, the MHRA might need to share information received through adverse incident reports. However, the information would always be anonymised and is usually kept at a high level—for example, description of the safety signal, or a trend report to identify whether another country has also identified an issue with a particular product or manufacturer.

I appreciate that there has been some concern over the use of the word “person” in the drafting of the amendment. We used that word, rather than specifying particular organisations, because we anticipate that international agreements will require the UK to share information not only with overseas regulators but with other bodies, such as overseas Governments, international organisations such as the World Health Organization, and international networks such as the International Medical Device Regulators Forum.

The wording is necessary because it provides the breadth, for example, to share data with international networks that might not be formalised. If we were to list all the organisations, networks and relationships that might be involved, it would simply not be possible to keep that list live on the face of legislation. Debate has been categorical that the MHRA needs to be a front-footed international regulator, and to limit it to the relationships it has now, rather than being flexible with regard to new regulatory forums or relationships, would restrict that aim.

The noble Lord, Lord Patel, asked pertinent questions about the data protection provisions in the new clauses. I have to admit to noble Lords that I had the same reaction about their potentially circular nature when I first read them, and I hope that I shall be able to unpack their effect here. The GDPR sets out seven key principles for processing personal data, the first of which involves “lawfulness, fairness and transparency”. We are providing a lawful basis for processing personal data by inserting these powers. That does not remove the other protections under the Data Protection Act that apply to the sharing of information under these clauses.

Where personal data are sensitive personal data, which are now called special category data, the GDPR requires further conditions, under Article 9, to be met for the processing to be lawful. Patient health data are a type of special category data. Relevant conditions under the GDPR, of which there are 10 that could be relied on to disclose patient data under the clause, would include “explicit consent”, reasons of “substantial public interest”, health or social care reasons, or public health reasons.

The GDPR also sets out further requirements where personal data are to be shared internationally. There must be an adequacy decision in place confirming that the third country or international organisation ensures an adequate level of data protection. In the absence of an adequacy decision, appropriate safeguards must be put in place that provide enforceable data subject rights and effective legal remedies, which can take the form of a legally binding agreement or contracts between parties. In the absence of an appropriate safeguard, data could be transferred only if it were

“necessary in order to protect the vital interests of the data subject or another natural person where the data subject is … incapable of giving consent.”



Equivalent safeguards for personal data and commercially sensitive information are already in place in Clause 35 for information relating to medical devices. This is solely to facilitate the appropriate sharing of information to give effect to international agreements and arrangements. They are critical to ensuring we can regulate effectively and uphold high standards of patient safety and access.

Amendment 45, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, seeks to achieve what is already standard and long-standing practice. Existing arrangements already ensure that timeliness, openness and transparency are key to the fees regime, and they are published online and available on GOV.UK. We will ensure that the industry and any other interested stakeholders know about any future fee changes in good time. We have laid statutory instruments to implement changes at the end of the transition period, as the cost of providing some regulatory services has fallen, so the fees charged will need to be reduced.

On the basis of the reassurances I have provided on Amendments 27, 45 and 118, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Patel, feels able to withdraw Amendment 27, and that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, is similarly assured and will not move her amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

I have received a request to speak after the Minister from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

To reassure the noble Baroness, I can tell her that the Opposition’s position on the government amendments is well noted. We will take away and reconsider the use of the term “person”, but there is a view that the safeguards that the noble Baroness is talking about are built in elsewhere, in how the clause would take effect. That does not mean, however, that we would not be happy to go away and look at those exact concerns, and see whether we can provide further reassurance. I am not a lawyer drafting the Bill, but that would be about looking at the terminology as well.

[Lord Patel (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister most sincerely for her full and comprehensive—I might even say persuasive—response. She is right to say that it has been a week since we debated this group, and even I had forgotten some things. Certainly, the venom certainly seems to have gone out of our debate.

The Minister reminded us what our anxieties were. She is right to point out that I referred to the word “person” in the government amendment, and also to the GDPR. I am pleased to hear that, on reflection, she, too, had realised why we were concerned about the use of data that might not be protected through the GDPR. Some questions remain.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has raised some important points, and I am glad that we may debate this subject again. It would be useful to have a discussion beforehand, if possible, because the word “person” is too amorphous—unless the definition could be confined as to what kind of person is meant. In her response, the Minister mostly covered organisations that might be involved in the regulation of medicines or in recommendations regarding medicines and devices, but the proposal as drafted goes much wider than that and would go beyond that. I will not say any more about that now.

The meeting that the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, arranged with the MHRA was useful, and it would have been better if we had had some of the information earlier. The information that I gave with regard to my Amendment 27 I had acquired from the industry. Of course, we got the same information from the chief executive of the MHRA. It would have been better if we had had that earlier—but that is water under the bridge. We know that there will be new ways of keeping us informed, and that will be good. At this point, I thank the Minister sincerely for her response, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]]

I thank the Committee for allowing me to come in a bit late; I apologise for that.

Noble Lords have made the main points that I would have made but I simply add this. A large number of molecules are held by pharma, often with a good scientific rationale, for use in a rare condition, and we have drugs that are licensed for other uses that could be reused or repurposed. If we can speed up all these processes, and provide an incentive for medicines development, those with rare conditions—who are often absolutely desperate to try something new and very keen to be part of a monitored development—could access medicines. That would put the UK in a stronger position in the long term.

In addition, the concept of this seems so sensible that I have also put down an amendment, later in the Bill, to try to replicate it for innovative devices. We have complex situations where medical engineers may come with up a device, but we will deal with that the next time round.

In the meantime, I am most grateful to all noble Lords for the important points they have made. I await the Minister’s reply with interest.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, this debate has once again focused the Committee’s mind on the importance of innovation and the way in which it can have a transformative impact on patients’ lives.

As noble Lords have spoken of, the success of the Cancer Drugs Fund in providing interim funding means faster access to cancer drugs, saving valuable time—up to eight months in some cases—for patients accessing those drugs. Patients are now able to access cancer drugs that have received a draft NICE recommendation from the point of marketing authorisation. As noble Lords have noted, this provides the template for the innovative medicines fund.

The success over the lifetime of the Cancer Drugs Fund to date did not need legislation. It was a response to the immediate need to target access to cancer drugs. In expanding the fund to become the innovative medicines fund, I do not think legislation would advance the fund’s purpose, capacity or delivery in any material way. It will be a managed access scheme delivered by NHSEI and NICE to expand the range of medicines that could be supported by that funding.

I understand that my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy and other noble Lords would like this debate to cover an update on progress towards delivering that fund. I assure noble Lords that proposals for the innovative medicines fund are in development as we speak. We know that patients will be keen to understand the impact on them, as well as pharmaceutical companies and the NHS. It is our intention that NHSEI and NICE will lead an engagement exercise in the first quarter of 2021 to get the fund established.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, before the noble Lord winds up, I want to thank the Minister. Clearly, the fund is welcome, but it will cover only a limited number of medicines. The debate goes wider than that.

I want to ask the Minister about the financial contribution that her department receives under the current voluntary agreement with pharma for sales of branded health service medicines. Does she not agree that it is a strange position we have reached where, if the cost to the NHS of those branded medicines goes above the agreed rate, her department receives a rebate? That is excellent, but why then does the NHS continue to treat drug costs almost as a pariah and hold down its investment in new medicines? Why cannot that rebate be used as a way to incentivise a switch by the NHS to new medicine?

I have debated this with the noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, and his predecessor. It is a real issue. The NHS itself believes drug costs to be a major problem, but the department has essentially solved the problem at a national level through the rebate scheme. Somehow, instead of a virtuous circle, we have got the very opposite.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord speaks with great passion. He is right that the debate goes wider than the innovative medicines fund, but it might also go somewhat wider than the scope of the Bill. I am, however, happy to write to him on the points that he raises.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord O'Shaughnessy (Con)]

I apologise for my email ineptitude.

I am grateful to my noble friend for her response. I was not planning to do so, but I have to again underline the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. We have trapped ourselves in a vicious, rather than a virtuous, circle that could well be undone. That may not be a discussion for now, but I want to underline its importance.

I want to ask my noble friend a very practical question. What did she mean by engagement? That could mean anything; it could mean pre-consultation discussion or a formal consultation. She will have garnered the strength of feeling on the topic, even in this small debate, and I am sure that will not dissipate as move forward to Report. The more detail and specificity she can give us on that process, the better.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am reminded that my noble friend Lord Lansley referred to the collective noun for former Health Ministers as a “frustration” of former Health Ministers. I can tell my noble friend that the engagement exercise will involve the pharmaceutical industry, the NHS and associated bodies and patient groups. That is the level of detail that I can give to him today. I was very pleased with being able to say “quarter 1” next year; it felt to me like a very specific timeframe for when that engagement exercise would be undertaken.

[Lord Patel (CB) [V]]

Thank you, my Lords. I apologise to the Chair for jumping in. I forget that, in the new world, I do not speak unless instructed to do so.

I thank the Minister enormously for her response. She mentioned the frustrations of the former Ministers. If she thinks that former Ministers get frustrated, think about us lesser mortals who have suffered the former Ministers when they have not listened to our arguments. Maybe that should be taken into account, too.

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part. They have spoken with passion and commitment. This has been referred to by several people, but I do so again. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has been pursuing this passionately and eloquently for a very long time. He has made an important point: if the medicines are available and people are suffering, why do we keep arguing about health and drug budgets and how to deliver it? The principle should be how we can get those drugs to the patients who might be suffering. He is right. If a rebate is available, where did the money go? The rebate was a drug fund rebate to be reinvested, you would have thought, in people getting the medicines.

No doubt the Minister is aware that there seems to be complete consensus around this amendment. I hope that it does not need to go to Report but, if it does, Ministers will be aware that there will be complete consensus. I hope that the Minister makes rapid progress with sorting this out. In the meantime, I thank all noble Lords and the Minister most sincerely for taking part. In begging leave to withdraw the amendment, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, will feel that we gave it enough airtime and passion.